How Does a Deaf Musician Work? (You’re Probably Wrong) | Sean Chandler

How does a deaf musician actually work?

Most people think they know the answer… but they’re wrong.

In this episode, I sit down with Sean Chandler a musician, teacher, and presenter to talk about what life is really like, from school to communication to how he actually experiences music.

How do you play music, teach, and present… when you’re deaf?

We get into what people constantly misunderstand, the pressure to adapt, and what “inclusion” really looks like in real life.

This isn’t a polished interview it’s a real conversation.

And it might change how you see things.

Sean Chandler Instagram: @mrseanchandler

Also, Flare Audio sent me a pair of their headphones no payment, no script. I’ve been using them while editing and they’ve actually helped cut out a lot of background noise and keep me focused.

I’ll drop the link here:
https://www.flareaudio.com/?srsltid=AfmBOoqY-mvo_e8Aj3NdsMjAgNB9iEs9q09Jxyr6f_L97yKUWObvKSgb

Transcript

Dan 0:00

Today I've got Sean Chantler on my podcast. Someone who plays music, teaches, and just does things people probably wouldn't expect. So, Sean, I'm gonna go right into it. So when people first meet you for the first time, what do we normally get wrong about ya? Quick one before I get into this. Flay Audio sent me a pair of their headphones, no payment, no script, just sent them over. I've been using them for a few days now, and yeah, with someone with ADHD, I noticed the sound difference straight away. And also they helped me concentrate a bit more. They cut off a lot of the background noise, not perfect, but enough for I can stay on the thing a bit longer without my brain going all over the place. They're not life-changing or anything, but they do what they're meant to do, and that's the whole point of it, and they do it very, very well. So yeah, I rate them. Anyways, back to the video.

Sean 0:52

Get wrong about me?

Dan 0:53

Yeah, yeah.

Sean 0:55

That's a hell of a question, mate. When they first met me, what do they get wrong about me? Um I think there's maybe an assumption when you meet someone who's deaf, um, that we can't do music and we can't um be a teacher, and we can't do all the things that hearing people can do. Um, I think maybe as as someone with a disability or as someone who is um uh neurodiverse, I think a society places a lot of um very limiting expectations on you. And uh, you know, I think that you know yourself, it's a really good thing when you can prove people wrong um with how they perceive people who are different from themselves, and so I think on a broader level, I think they have very limiting expectations of what deaf people are able to do.

Dan 2:00

Um so let's take it aback a little bit. So, what was school actually like for you? Was there any like anything you needed to get over? You know, did you feel like you were a part of it?

Sean 2:12

Yeah, so I was really lucky in the primary school and the secondary school that I went to in in Liverpool, in South Liverpool. I was I was really lucky because I had uh you know what a Senko is, don't you?

Dan 2:23

Yeah, yeah, Senko.

Sean 2:25

So I had two Senko's who were who were really supportive and and head teachers that really wanted to see me do well. Um so I wasn't really um I wasn't really bullied, I wasn't really kind of singled out too much, other than the fact that I had one of those microphones. You might have seen them where you give them to the teacher, and then it that kind of streams, if you like, directing my hearing aid, then it blocks out all the background noise. But I was I was really good at football, I was really good at crickets and basketball, so I was in the school teams at one point as well. I was in the cross country and the the athletic team as well. And I think because I was yeah, and I think because I was good at those things, I was able to kind of muck in with people. And the only problems that I had really was when I played football, I had to take my hearing aids out. Um because you get you get sweaty when you when you do activities like that, and uh sweat and hearing aid or cochlear implants or any kind of hearing assistant technology is a really bad thing. So kind of like having to tell my teammates um to point a lot or to shout a bit more or to kind of gesture when um they would try and tell me what to do, which which is quite often, um was was was was an interesting challenge. And then I was also we might come on to this a bit later, but I was also in the school brass bands. Um so kind of working out what I could hear with my hearing aids in and playing the trumpets at the same time was was also an interesting experience, but you kind of get used to your way of doing things, yeah.

Dan 4:05

So it m it must have been a lifesaver, then hearing aids, because can you explain a bit more about what what what we do and you know how the technology works a little bit?

Sean 4:14

For sure. So hearing aids are specific to everyone. Um, there's no one, two hearing aids that are the same because what I hear without my hearing aids is very different to another deaf person's listening experience, if you like, or hearing experience. Um, they're programmed specifically for you, and um it's not like they just turn everything up like you do on the TV. Um, there are specific frequencies that a deaf person won't be able to hear. So they get plugged, the hearing aids get plugged into a computer, and certain sounds at certain so for me, I can't hear the higher sounds very well. So I've got a bit more gain uh in the higher frequency sounds like um so it's like it's like you're balancing the EQ a bit. Yeah, yeah, precisely, yeah, yeah, that that's exactly what they're doing. And with me, it's specifically like voiceless speech sounds. So, like if you think of the letter F or the letter S or the letter P or the letter B, although that's a spoken sound, um, or TH, those kind of sounds I I can't hear at all. Um, so I need to lip read a lot when uh when I'm talking to someone, and um the sounds that I can't tell the difference between, even with hearing aid, it's really tricky. So if someone's got hearing aid in, it doesn't mean that their hearing loss is cured. There's still, if you think of like a hearing person's threshold of hearing a deaf person, even with hearing aid or a cochlear implant, it's still below what a normal hearing person can hear. Does that make sense?

Dan 6:04

Yeah, it does. Is is there any like because it can't be like totally perfect? So is there like a little hiss when the gain's too high? Is it like an annoying frequency?

Sean 6:16

Yeah, yeah. So I think that's the kind of line that the hospital has to kind of tread. Sometimes if they put too much gain in, there's too much feedback. I don't know if you'll be able to hear this.

Dan 6:27

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I can I can hear that.

Sean 6:30

Yeah, so if there's too much gain and too much um volume control, if you like, going through the hearing aid, it's it's just um it's a fine balancing act. Yeah, it can be quite uh but it's the when you go to the hospital. Have you seen those like videos on Facebook where there's like a pair of hearing aids given to a deaf baby?

Dan 6:50

Oh, yeah, and they they can they can hear them, yeah. They like switch on.

Sean 6:54

So that yeah, so that very often is like the ninth, tenth, eleventh appointments. It's never perfect the first time. So there's a lot of failures that kind of goes on. And now that I'm 37, I know I don't look it. I look, I look 57. Um the uh the people in the hospital, I can tell them, listen, that's that doesn't feel right, but can we just change that? Whereas when they're babies, we don't know what what it's like for them. So you have to like guess there's a lot of bad yeah, a little guessing game. And yeah, and like they'll say to mum and dad, take the baby home and like see what it's like for a week. If the baby doesn't like them, like we I work with deaf children now in my job. I'm a teacher of the deaf. So I uh I hear a lot of stories of babies taking the healing aids out, feeding them to the dog, um, or you know, putting them down the nappy and things like that. Um, so that's like the baby's way of just saying this this isn't working for me. Can we change it?

Dan 7:53

So going back to school, you did mention you had really good Senko's, but what were the other teachers like? Did they understand you, or was it a bit more of like a boundary?

Sean 8:04

You know what I mean? This is the best interview, this is like therapy for Sean. Seriously, like the school control it's meant to be. Um is right, it's right. So I the Senko's were fantastic, and part of the Senko's job is to tell the teachers what what the child with disability or additional need needs what the needs are. So in in in general, all of the teachers that I had were really um really keen to make sure that I was included with everything. It was easier in secondary school, and I think a big part of that was I knew what I needed, yeah. Whereas when I was in school, I think I was it's it was the same with me with my AD.

Dan 8:49

Like I found secondary school a bit more of an ease because I I understood myself a bit more, yes, and I understood my capabilities, and when you can when you actually know yourself a bit better and you know your limits, then it it really helps yourself, it really, really does.

Sean 9:05

Can I ask you a question?

Dan 9:06

Yeah, of course.

Sean 9:07

What was the catalyst for that then? What what was it that kind of helped you to understand yourself a bit more? Was it just you just got older or did you meet someone else in a similar boat to you? What what was the what was the thing that made you understand yourself a bit more?

Dan 9:23

So to understanding myself a bit more, it was more that me mum was looking at books and reading all stuff up, and also videos as well, because um because and also m my mum read me books as well when I was little, you know, reading my books about ADHD and autism and and how separate it can be. And um it was a bit isolating to be honest. It was a bit like this is what this is what we'll they say the norm, this is what the norm do. And then this is what ADHD do. And I was thinking, but I don't know any different because that that's just me, that's just me and how I am. So it was a bit like I don't you know, because I always knew something was a bit off because this sounds a bit weird, but you know, um what was it called? The TV programme, you know, where it's um like like like a pirate uh like on C BBs, like a pirate show and they had the gems, and I always wanted to, you know, feel the gems and and go into the TV and touch it. So I knew there was some kind of like sensory thing there.

Sean 10:22

As as well as that then, mate, um did you I mean I've heard this word masking.

Dan 10:27

Yeah, yeah.

Sean 10:29

Did you when you said that you felt that there's something there wasn't something, did you feel that you had to kind of act in the way that other people expected you to act?

Dan 10:36

So I've never really learned how to mask. Like it's not something like it's just well you kind of don't know, but I I what I've read up and what I've experienced because my older brother, he ma he used to mask in school. Um so that's why it wasn't obvious. And also in girls as well, masking is kind of quite high in girls as well. But um yeah, it's I've never really learned how to mask, but I've I've heard it's really, really tiring because you're pretending to like well to fit in, you know, if you know what I mean. You're pretending to like fit in and be with the norm.

Sean 11:09

I think it's one of those things where like people who have a diagnosis of of what you've been diagnosed with or what what I've been diagnosed with sometimes, like this world isn't really built for people with the diagnosis that we have. Yeah, so it's that would literally my next question.

Dan 11:28

So, my next question was were there moments where you just thought this isn't built for me?

Sean 11:36

I think it's a hearing world, it's not built for deaf people. I don't think that deaf people um have the same level of opportunity as as um typically hearing people do. Uh, if you think of when you said before about people who are deaf who don't use their voice and they sign, I'm actually fluent in sign language now, but I wasn't back then. And I think if I'd learned sign language back when I was in primary school, I think a sense of deaf identity would have been a bit stronger. But I think moving through school, talk about the word masking. I think I was viewed as a hearing child, like a normal hearing child, but with broken ears. So rather than thinking Sean's got this hearing loss, he he's missing a lot in class, he's playing catch-up. A big part of when you asked me before about what school was like like I would copy answers in in my lessons. So my best man when I got married, Matty, his name is Matty Don, and I'm Sean Chandler. Alphabetically, we would always sat next to each other and we stayed really good mates, like even to today. Um, I was best man at his wedding about near enough, 10, maybe nearly 10 years ago now. And then he was best man at my wedding. But he would always say, Do you know what you're doing? Do you know where we're coming from and things like that? It was the same in primary school as well. I'd sat I sat next to a guy called Carlo, Carlo Hill, and he was he was amazing at maths anyway. So I just used to copy his answers. And I think when you're a nice person, people let you copy their answers. Um but yeah, the biggest intervention for me, and this is what I say to teachers now in my job when I go into schools, is if you want someone with hearing loss or a diagnosis to do well, they just need time and space. They need to feel like it's okay to make mistakes, they need to have the time to process and they need the space to breathe because I think it's really intense sometimes, and it just feels really overwhelming. Sometimes, like, I don't know if it's the same experience with yourself, but when you're kind of sat as a child and people are trying to help you, and they've kind of singled you out for that help, it can be really overwhelming and really intimidating sometimes. And if you're having to do that every day, if it's just like once a week, it's fine, or once a turn. But when it's every day and people say things like Sean's death, so Sean needs to sit at the front, when you've got that all the time, it it can it can build up. I always use the analogy of um the the you know that like if you've got the ocean, you know, like the cliffs at the side of the ocean, like the whale land.

Dan 14:34

Well, it's like hits when the water yeah, absolutely.

Sean 14:37

So when the when the water hits the rock, the first time, second time, nothing really happens. But five hundredth, six hundredth time, eventually the rocks will crumble. And sometimes all of these little moments, it just build up and eventually you maybe not crumble, but you know, you just need to scream or go and do something a bit volatile. I don't know. But uh, yeah. So was it was it similar for you? Was that your experience? Yeah, not lots of other things.

Dan 15:04

So mine was kind of the opposite, you see. So instead of being at the front of the class, I always used to be at the back of the class away from people because I used to say I was distracting and I was disruptive. So instead of getting me involved and trying to learn from other people, I used to just get put out at the back of the class and just call it a day. So it's it is it is tough.

Sean 15:32

Did did you kind of learn that you weren't you weren't included? Like what was learned?

Dan 15:39

Well definitely when you're younger, you always have questions because my mind was racing when I was younger, and um you you always have questions like why am I the only one at the back of the class? Because it it put it put does put you down and it makes you think and ask a lot of questions that can't really be answered because you don't you don't have a big grasp yet because you're only you know your young yourself. So it it is it is tough. It really, really is.

Sean 16:07

Do you think it's just something that you're now using for your benefit? How are you kind of spinning that as a positive today, or or are you? Is it just that are you just not in a bad place about it?

Dan 16:17

I just think with if kids aren't handling in a classroom, instead of keeping them in the classroom and moving them, I think just try and approach with a different learning style because let's say you take a normal mainstream school, that's 30 30 children, every single child in that room learns differently, either you know, writing it down, either doing it practical, you know, everyone learns differently. So my question is why are you sticking all of them kids in one classroom and just calling it a day? You know what I mean?

Sean 16:54

It comes down to funding, doesn't it, at the end of the day. That's that's the only way it was. But I also think in a really strange way, the thing is with me, because I I mean like that's a really interesting dichotomy, isn't it? Like I would have to fund to the class for my reasons, and you would have to buy the class for your reasons, um, or maybe the teachers' reasons, they kind of like thought, well, this is the best for them, therefore, um that I I will just move them where they need to go to. But now that I'm 37 and I maybe no no two people's experiences are the same, right? But for me, I think that I've now learned how to advocate for myself and to speak to people because I was in those classrooms with different kids, and I had to learn at a very early age how to cope.

Dan 17:53

Yeah, because it's it's all like a system, isn't it? Did you feel like you had to fit into their system rather than them adapting to you?

Sean 18:01

100%, 100%. I think you you talk about like so that people, if you if deaf people can't if you're a hearing person talking to a deaf person and you don't know any sign language, it's on the deaf person to use their voice because that's how you're going to communicate with them. Whereas if I meet uh if I as a deaf person meet another a hearing person who isn't deaf, but they can sign, life's so much easier for me. I don't have to concentrate, I don't have to I can I I would love it, and this has happened once um in Sainsbury's of all places, uh just on time, and uh I met someone and uh sometimes when I'm bored, right? I'll take my hearing aid and I'll say to I'll sign, I'll just go in in my keys, wherever, and I'll sign at the people behind the counter, and I just like watching them like be a bit scared because it's like oh oh oh deaf person, oh what what what do we do here? And I think I'm I'm spreading awareness. I am spreading awareness because it's like, oh, if they meet someone else who's deaf, maybe they can learn a bit of sign language before then. Oh, yeah. Anyway, so I would love it if I could take my human aids, I would go into St. Fries, but anyway, and just sign up someone that like, do you know where the chocolate is? Or can I have a mop or whatever, and just sign it to them. And one time in Saint Freeze, the lady that I was speaking to signed back to me. Oh, and it turned out both of her parents for deaf. She's a coder, C O D A, Child of Deaf Adults. Um, and so she told me about her mum and dad, and like you know, how sign language was her first language and all that kind of stuff. Wow. So the thing is, is that the hearing people can learn how to sign, but deaf people can't learn how to listen. So if you if if we could like get sign language a bit more out there, yeah, that would be rather fantastic. But yeah, fitting into a hearing world is the story of my life and so many other deaf people's lives for sure.

Dan 20:02

Well, so I I saw a comedy sketch like of this guy who got he got pulled over by the police. So he so he pretended to be deaf and signed to the police, and the police just freaked out and just went, Okay, have a nice day. What are your thoughts on that?

Sean 20:21

I I might have done that. I wasn't when we see that once. Uh my mum's gonna watch this, that didn't happen, it didn't happen. Um yeah, it's gotten me out of a few pretty hardy situations, mate. I'll be honest with you. Um, and but also I've used it in a way where I've been able to kind of calm a situation down. So when I've gone into a school and I can really and like sometimes like parents are really passionate and parents want the best for their children, and sometimes when a parent goes into school, they will argue with the receptionist because they're the first person that they see in the school. And sometimes when I've gone into a school and there are parents in the reception, they're having an argument with the receptionist, and just by not using my voice and just using sign language, things just seem to calm down. And I think like it whether it's like a different part of the brain that's being used, or I'm a just I'm just a fresh face, um, it can be used for for good, absolutely. Uh but I wouldn't say that anything is more important than hit like the world learning how to sign. I think that that's what we need to be thinking about. But even like for for people who are like overstimulated, you know, turning off the voice and just like lowering the whole like just having less voices in the room and using sign or gesture or art as a way of communication or things like that, I think it could be really helpful. So it's a different way to is that like your end dream?

Dan 21:59

Like your End product is that you would well not a product, but you know, like your goal is to have everyone learn sign language. That the deaf community goal.

Sean 22:14

I think it it it it well, yeah. The answer is yes, but to make the world fluent in sign language, but I wouldn't want it to be from the deaf community. I'd want hearing people to want to connect with deaf people, so the way that they would do that is to learn sign language rather than deaf people saying, You can't speak to me, you need to learn how to sign. Let's go and talk to those deaf people. How do we do that? Let's learn some sign language, and then like the thing is, mate, if if my wife was outside right now, I'd I'd draw the curtains. But if my wife was there and she was like, 'Could I've got a two-year-old, and she was like, 'Can you come and help me get the shopping in and Sam meet me son?' She'd be able to like my wife isn't deaf, but she's fluent in sign language. I I've kind of taught her how to sign this stuff when we first met. But she could sign through the window, and it's not like you know, I don't know if you've seen that Peter Kay sketch when he's doing stand-up and he talks about um when they go the chippy, and like anyway, they haven't got gravy or something, or more putty sauce, it doesn't matter. He does that all through the glass. That's how you talk to someone through a glass. If they learn how to sign, wouldn't be an issue, you know. Um, so yeah, that that's kind of my end game. But also, I've got another little project which I want to tell you about. Um, and it's you know how sign language is uh something where we use our hands and it's about eye contact and non-verbal communication. My dream, and I don't know whether the art council might be able to give me a bit of money for this, but my dream um with the deaf children that I work with, and I do a lot of music teaching with deaf children, because it's not just about listening, it's about teamwork, it's about social time together, all of those kind of things. Um but my project, my dream project is to get a group of deaf children, and I've got about 10 to 15 deaf children in my mind about who would be really good for this, teach them the basics of conducting. So, like when you are in front of an orchestra or a brass band, because I did conduct in, I did a music degree at the University of Sulfid with my with my trumpet playing, and I did conduct in in my last year, and I got the conducting prize, and it wasn't because I passed the listening exams. I mean, I I I completely failed the listening exams, as you can imagine, but the choreography of conducting and just the ebb and flow and the fact that different hand shapes mean different things, you can really direct and shape musical performances just by using your hands and your facial expression. And those are the principles of British Sign Language. So, wouldn't it be wonderful if I had their children, teach them conducting, get them on a stage in front of an orchestra, just in a rehearsal, it doesn't have to be a concert, and just see what happens and just let them use what they've got inside them to express themselves.

Dan 25:27

So I've got a I've got a quick question about sign. So is it like universal? So like you could like get a plane to like you know Australia and you sign and you'll be able to like like is it like uh universal in the whole world?

Sean 25:44

I'll only get on a plane to Australia if you pay for the tickets, mate. Um but yeah, let's go. I'm off for it. Uh so uh the answer's no. Even even within England, there are regional variations of signs. Um so so but there is something called international sign. So when I go to Australia, in fact, the English-speaking countries um like England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales, Australia, and New Zealand are very similar. Uh the United States of America is like a completely different thing altogether. We don't talk to them much, but um Osland, Australian Sign Language and New Zealand Sign Language, I think if I was to meet someone from there, we could kind of get on really well. I think we'd be okay. But like French Sign Language, absolutely not. Um the the there's over like I think it's over 300 different sign languages in the world. However, there's something called a shared oppression, which basically means if I meet another deaf person and we don't know how to communicate with each other, we're already best friends because we're both deaf, and this is a hearing world. So I've been oppressed and discriminated against because I'm deaf. This deaf person has also been discriminated against and oppressed because they're deaf. We've kind of got a shared oppression, we've got a shared understanding of what it's like to be deaf in a hearing world. So automatically we would look to support each other in in different ways. It might be the same with with yourself when you meet someone else who's got um uh autism uh diagnosis and ADHD diagnosis, you know what your brain is like. Can I tell you um what I heard? Something I heard recently, and can I check if you could yeah, of course. So you know I'm a musician, a death musician, and we've just been talking about conducting. Someone told me that when you have ADHD, it's like having an orchestra, you've got like the percussion, like the drums, the brass, the woodwind, the strings. You've got all of these things going on here, but the conductor in an ADHD brain is drunk.

Dan 28:09

Yeah, it is a bit like that, but the most annoying thing is you can't control everything around you like you can in a conductor, you know what I mean? So like you wish you could go, you you should you should get get your little get your little thing and just go shut up, you know, you know, it's shut up, put your command. Put in the putting the shut up.

Sean 28:37

You should be on my podcast anyway. Thank you.

Dan 28:40

I will come on and I can play I can play piano slow, you know.

Sean 28:43

We'll have that about the what does it do to you when you play piano? Does it calm you down? Does it need to give you a focus?

Dan 28:51

Proper relaxing. So like when I when I'm playing and when I look and I'm mostly playing chords and uh, but like like when I'm playing the song, like every I just zone in and everything just you know, all the thoughts just leave me. It's really really fun. I love it. So a lot of a lot of people assume that deaf people can't speak. So how does that actually work for you?

Sean 29:13

Yeah, for sure, for sure. So there are deaf people who don't um how do I say this without defending every deaf person in in in the world? So I have what we call severe to profound hearing loss. So you've got can I be a bit of a nerd? Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, you'd be a nerd. Go for it. So you've got different levels of hearing loss, right? This is my my graph, which I I'm just holding up here. You've got like your normal hearing range, which is like you like like maybe yourself or like you know, people with normal hearing who don't need hearing aids or any other intervention like that. So you can hear the birds singing in the trees, you can hear um the taps dripping in the kitchen, you can hear a watch like clicking, ticking, ticking, things like that. You can hear all that if you've got what we call mild hearing loss, so the different bands are normal hearing range, mild hearing loss, moderate hearing loss, severe hearing loss, and then profound hearing loss. Mild, moderate, severe, profound, and so kind of the the the the lower your hearing threshold, you kind of sit in a certain band, and I've got severe to profound hearing loss, which means that when I take my hearing aids out, I can't hear anything, I can't even hear my own voice. So when I can hear doors slamming, but I don't know whether that's like I feel them rather than hear them. Doesn't matter. Um, so this is where I live, but with um my hearing aids in, I go up into like just at the top of moderate hearing loss. And so when I was talking before about like the beginnings and ends of sounds, like all of those, I still can't hear them. But with my hearing aids in, I can hear they're called the phonemes of speech. So the the vowel sounds are o e a those sounds, and in the context of a sentence, even if I can't hear everything in the sentence, um, you kind of put two and two together. So if we're talking about like the the earliest example I can think of uh is when I was younger and I'd be in my bedroom, and my dad would call me down for me tea. So all of a sudden I would hear oh. So I can't hear sss for my name, Sean. I can't hear the s the S, and I can't hear the N. I just hear oh, and socially, like contextually, I can kind of think to myself, oh, it's my dad's voice, it's a lot louder than it normally is. It's about tea time. I think my dad wants me to go down for meeting.

Dan 32:01

Oh, so I just made downstairs anyway. That's good though.

Sean 32:07

Yeah, man. So I I just listen out for different different things, and like the when you talk when we were talking before about like knowing yourself, because I know my own hearing loss now, I'm much more confident in saying to people, listen, I'm deaf, I need to lip breed. Can you just say that again? And like 99 times out of a hundred, they always do, it's not a problem. You just get that one dickhead, excuse me, you just get that one simple message every now and then who um who just doesn't want to give you the who just doesn't want to get on side, who doesn't want to connect, who doesn't want to be able to do that.

Dan 32:45

I know because I think people should we just need to be patient with each other, you know what I mean? Because if every if everyone just slowed down a bit and everyone was just nice to each other and patient, it will all come back to each other. So like if I'm nice to you, then you'll probably return being nice to me, and then it'll just go on and on and on. You know, I don't I don't know what makes people like that, but anyway, so did learning sign change how you saw yourself?

Sean 33:14

What are you doing to me then? That's crazy, probably. Wow, learning science how I use myself. Well, the the when we were talking before about like when we first came to accept like the diagnoses that we have, um a big catalyst for me was the first time that I met another deaf adult who was signing, and it was in London, it's in that London, and I was working in a a theatre company called Grey Eye, and Grey Eye Theatre Company is a deaf and disabled led theatre company, and I did a few shows with them, and there were deaf people in the show, and every day they came to the rehearsals with a sign language interpreter, and there was me, didn't know any sign language, didn't know what what they were talking about. I mean, but but but really lovely people, really great with me, and like kind of saying, So, have you not learned any sign language? Okay, well, do you want to start learning? And they kind of helped me with a little bit of sign language at the start. Um, but talking to other deaf people about what it's like to be deaf was like the first time for me of of like being accepting of it's okay to ask people to repeat themselves, it's okay to sign to people and to just have a bit of a bit of awkwardness. Because actually, a lot of times when I meet um other people and I tell them that I'm deaf, you see the fear in their eyes. Um before when I was growing up, before I worked with Grey, it was very much I felt awkward. I felt like I wasn't good enough. I felt like I I wasn't um good enough to speak to them or to work with them. Whereas now, not that I want to make them feel anxious or that I want to make them feel uncomfortable. When I tell them and I'm just like, yeah, I'm deaf. I need you to live. If we're gonna have a conversation, you need to make sure that I can see your lips. That's it. I'm not gonna be the one that scurries round and taps you on the shoulder and does all that stuff. If you don't want me to hear this, I won't hear it. But if you want to be deaf aware, you want to include me in this in this story, in this conversation, this is what I need. But it's been a journey, and I think it might have been the same for yourself as well, or maybe it's it's not like I don't think either of us have ever will ever reach the end destination.

Dan 35:49

No, never.

Sean 35:49

It's it's a constant, it's a constant like thought process, isn't it? So uh to answer your question, yes, very much so.

Dan 35:57

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I I always see it like so. I'm never gonna change like well, I might do, but you know, with the education system and that, like I would I won't ne I would never like because it it need something needs to weaken, isn't it? And um so I I don't think I would ever get to it, and I don't think anyone is really near to get into it. But then when when I when I pass and someone else comes into the world with bosses and ADHD, I would hopefully want them to carry on like a legacy and hopefully push, push, push, and they made the process, and then another person will come along and then push, push, push until they eventually get there. It might be five years' time, or it might be you know three four decades time. We just have to be patient and just see what comes from it, but yeah.

Sean 36:44

You know what, mate? When I when I uh when I got married, you know you have to stand up and do a bit of a speech when when you get married. When uh and I I I love being the centre of attention, mate. I'm I'm not bothered, like I find with me. Um but I stood up and I said, it's important to remember whose shoulders you are standing on. And so what I meant by that was throughout my life, there have been so many people that have really helped me, and like they've let me stand on their shoulders, so they've kind of set a path, they've set a bit of a precedent for me to carry on like deaf awareness or music and deafness or amazing podcasts like this one.

Dan 37:31

Oh, thank you.

Sean 37:32

Whereas the truth, it's the truth. It's the truth. Absolutely. So the thing with you, mate, is that you're you're setting the path now to to uh to letting someone else stand on your shoulders. Do you know what I mean? Like you're you're starting, and like it's so you're gonna be like a massive role model for other children and young people who who are who have got this thing where it's like I'm not the same as everyone else. But you see that guy over there who've got a podcast and absolutely smashing it. If he can do it, that's all I want. I won't I won't go on. Listen to this, listen to this. There is someone out there who is just like Dan who needs to meet Dan. There is someone out there who've got the diagnoses that Dan has who needs to sit down and have a good long chat with Dan because he'll change their life with thank you so much.

Dan 38:37

Because I wanna I wanna I wanna put the word out there that even if you are different, that's okay. You know what I mean? That's okay that's okay if you're different. So, how did you even get into music in the first place?

Sean 38:52

My dad was a massive music nerd. He still is still with us. Um, and my dad always had music playing around the house. And like I remember coming back from school and playing Monopoly with my dad and my little sister. Uh I've got two little sisters now, and they're both amazing. Um, but we'd sit and play Monopoly, and my dad would have, I don't know if you know the Lighthouse family or Van Morrison or uh people like that. And then when I started playing the trumpet, it was my dad kind of found some other trumpet players like Winter Marsalis, um uh Miles Davis to for me to listen to, and so that was kind of it. And the other thing as well is that when you learn how to play musical instruments, um my speech improved a lot because when you play a trumpet, you learn how to breathe, you learn how to project, you learn how to um how a musical phrase works. Twinkle, twinkle, little star is the question.

Dan 39:59

Yeah, you're getting key. Sorry, you're getting key, you know, you know the different keys, you're getting keys.

Sean 40:07

Absolutely, and so because I was I was listening to different key signatures and I was listening to the things that I was producing, and I had to listen, I had to hear what was coming out of the end of the instrument, and so because I was developing that skill of listening to myself on the trumpets, I was then able to listen to myself what was happening with my speech, and and also with when you're playing the trumpets, I'm not gonna get into this too much, but when you um start a note, the way that you hit the note, it can be very dang, like really sharp, or dang, really softly. Yeah, and so when I was listening to the scout accents with my hearing aids in, and everyone was like, Oh, oui, calm down, calm down. I was like, That's a bit too rough for sure. I get like playing music was was kind of like permission for me to kind of be I can be a bit a bit softer, I can talk a bit slower, I can be clearer.

Dan 41:07

So, yeah, it's yeah, just um it's like going from um capital to classical.

Sean 41:19

I'm a little bit more of a smooth FM kind of rather than classical. Brilliant nice, absolutely fantastic. Dan, when are you gonna have your own radio show? That's the question.

Dan 41:31

Don't know, yeah. Hopefully soon. So so that that that goes on a bit on of how you experience music, isn't it? So like what what does it feel like for you?

Sean 41:44

What's it feel like to me? It's free, it's freedom. So when I take when I play the trumpet now, I take me here and eight hours, and I just I just play. Um the the problems come when you're in a rehearsal and you've got the conductor who's taking the rehearsal. If he even eight hours, I can I can hear myself play a bit, and I feel the vibrations in the trumpet as well, but I can't hear the conductor.

Dan 42:10

No.

Sean 42:11

So what I do usually in a band, you're sitting with other people all the time. So kind of part of being a deaf musician, I think, is having the confidence to say to the person sat next to you, listen, I can't really hear the conductor, I can't hear myself playing very well. Would you be okay with just telling me if I'm playing a bit sharp, a bit flat, or if I'm playing too loud, too quietly, or if I'm just like meshing up completely. Yeah, I was fortunate enough to be in the National Youth Brass Band of Great Britain when I was a teenager. So it's 80 of the best brass musicians in the country. And we used to come together twice a year at Easter and summer and have weeklong courses of like really great tuition from world-class brass players, and I'd play, and I'd it was the same thing. But what I found was the better the musician, the better the teacher, the more understanding they were, the more kind of on board they were, the more they would say, So, what is it like playing trumpet as a deaf guy? What why what is it that you need to do? What do I need to do as the conductor, as the teacher, as the person that sat next to you to help you with your with your performances, what what needs to happen? And so I was given the time and the space, as we were saying before, to really think about what I needed. And I'm actually nowadays I'm on the staff with the National Youth Boss Band, and so I get I'm still in touch with a lot of the people that helped me out back then, which is really nice.

Dan 43:49

Oh, so I've seen videos of you when you've taken your hearing aids out and played trumpet. So have you ever took your hearing aids out, put them on charge? You know, it's about about Nine o'clock at night, you're practicing your trumpet, you're blowing away, and under the neighbors never get pissed off because you can't hear yourself properly, but it's really, really loud. So the neighbors knocking me, mate, shut up. I'm trying to go to sleep here. I've got wake in the morning.

Sean 44:20

I used to, but like I said before, I've got a little baby now, mate. So trumpet practice for the baby doesn't really. Um although I I've got a mate who's got a baby as well, and he says he practices like quiet playing because playing quiet on a brass instrument is actually really difficult. Yeah, anyone can just go through and go really, really loudly. Doing it quietly. It's not it's I'm I'm not the best in the world at it, but you know, you practice and you get better. Yeah, um, so I've got a practice mute, which yeah, I saw that.

Dan 44:53

It's like a little mute that went in. I saw that. So what what did that do?

Sean 44:58

Go on. When I was younger, like about 14, 15, we like could I think my mum and dad felt quite bad for for our neighbours, but we lived next door to a lovely couple called Anne and Alan. And they always because I I'd be like, I'm really sorry if you heard that. Because I used to practice for like hours, especially when it was on the holidays and I'd just play because I just loved it and I didn't have any friends, still don't. Um but you have me with the I've got Dan.

Dan 45:26

You've got Dan, that's all you need. All you need is Dan.

Sean 45:33

We could be like the new Ant and Deck, like Ants and Death.

Dan 45:38

Yeah, oh Dan and Death.

Sean 45:41

Dan Dan and Death. Anyway.

Dan 45:44

Dan and Death show.

Sean 45:53

So so I um we'll be on Capital FM, mate. That's where we'll have our uh our radio show.

Dan 45:58

We'll have our own one. We'll we'll take over the frequency.

Sean 46:02

I'm I'm game. I'm game. Yeah. Um Jeff Jeff Radio, that's the thing. Yeah, anyway, listen, I think what we should do. Yeah, what was I about to say? Yeah, so Ann and Alan next door, they they would say, Don't worry about it. Because we when you're playing, Sean, we do the housework and we just listen to you playing away, and we were doing like the brushing up, or like we're doing the promotion, we just listen to your music. I I don't think, in hindsight, at the age of 37, I'm a much better musician now than I was back then. I made a lot of mistakes, and I kept going over those same mistakes when I was practicing, right? So I knew that they were chatting bubbles. Bubbles! They were chatting bubbles, so um so they they they they were really kind, and I don't know whether the fact that I'm deaf kind of helped them to be a bit more sympathetic. Um, but nonetheless, they were really they were really wonderful actually, and maybe practicing back then when it didn't have those mutes might have been it might have been a different story for sure.

Dan 47:09

Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna go a bit practical here. So do you rely on like vibrations or like timings or like visuals when you play?

Sean 47:19

Yeah, so locked into the conductor, always lock into the conductor. So so based on how good the conductor is, like when you're conductor, it's not just about keeping time, it's also about the shape, about how and the flow, the ebb and flow is right, and so I will play exactly what the conductor does. And sometimes the conductor will do something that they don't mean to do, and but I've seen that, and I think the conductor wants these to be really sharp and really attacked and really staccato, really short and detached. But actually, the conductor didn't mean that, the conductor was like just picking his nose or whatever, maybe I don't know how and I respond to that. Man, the idea of vibration, it's a bit of a sticking point because when you have a hearing loss as a musician, nothing replaces sound. No, sound is sound, whether it's a trumpet, a flute, a violin, the drums, that they're just different timbres, there's different textures. Vibration is really used for confirming what I'm playing. So when I'm playing the trumpet, a higher sound, the vibration is really thin. I don't really feel much in the instrument, and that's to be expected. But when I'm playing a lower sound, I can really feel a thick vibration in the instrument. And the you might have seen the video that I did where I put the purple mutant, and I was shocked because I was getting so much feedback from the code instrument, and I was like, that that's that was a mess, and I wasn't putting that on. Um it really felt really nice and safe and secure. Uh so I think the idea now is to try and figure out a way for me to have a mutant, but for the output to be the same, not to be quiet, yeah, that I can just feel it, and I just know that that's what I'm producing, if that makes sense. Yeah, so so yeah.

Dan 49:28

So is there any like tech involved, or is it more like physical awareness and like like more like visual stuff?

Sean 49:35

There's loads of things, mate. So the first thing, you know that okay, so talk about practice mutes. I was involved. So Yamaha brought out this like practice mute where it was like connected to a mixing desk or a mixing box, and then I had special headphones that went to my human aids. This is like when I was 16, 17. I was in the echo bounty.

Dan 49:59

Of course.

Sean 50:01

Naturally, and uh basically it might have been the Mersey Mars, doesn't matter. I was in the paper, and uh and I was playing it. So I put the the put the mute in and then put the wire in the mute to the test box and then have me special headphones on. And I heard myself play really well, and I was like, I don't sound too bad here. Oh wow. Too much of a bad player, am I? So that was amazing. And then so I kept hold of that, and then we replaced the we replaced the mute with a little microphone. So we took the mute out. I I put the microphone, there's just a clip on my on the on the bell of the trumpets on the edge of the edge of it, yeah. Yeah, and I could I could kind of hear I could hear myself play really well, but then you you have it's called residual hearing. So I could actually it didn't work very well for me because I could still hear myself without the headphones a little bit.

Dan 51:02

Oh yeah, okay. So it needed to be like proper noise cancellation, yeah.

Sean 51:08

That would be the dream.

Dan 51:10

That would be the dream, whether it could be kind of noise cancellation headphones, but still special for me to have them with the hearing aid, but yeah, because you know the AirPod Pros, because these will have got now, they've got like a hearing aid feature. Do they really yeah you can you can do a hearing test on your phone, you have to be in like a room silence, and every time you hear a little every time you hear something, you pre you press your phone and it works out all the different frequencies and how many decibels is in each ear, and you can activate it. So me Nan tried it and she was like, Well, these are better than mine, and you can like tune it as well, let your man tune it. So the one that she got for free off the NHS, she preferred the AirPods, and to like, oh, oh, uh how much can I buy these if you said, Well, I'm not telling you me AirPods, I mean Nan, I love you, but you're buying your own AirPods, girl. Yeah, you're taking a bit too far there, love.

Sean 52:10

The other thing that I was gonna say was um with the hearing test thing, so that's very similar to the hearing test that you have when you're in the hospital. So in the audiology, you sit there. When I was about five years old, they used to have like a toy pirate ship, and you get the the headphones on, or like there's like a bone conduction one which like squeezes your head really tightly, but it measures like how you're hearing much through the bone, doesn't matter. Um so there was like a little pirate ship, and then all these little wooden pirates, and when you heard the sound, you had to put the pirates in the ship. And I used to love doing that, um, but now a bit boring now, there's like a little clicker, and you have to, it doesn't matter.

Dan 52:51

But it's got a bit boring now, yeah. Yeah, so I'm gonna I'm gonna research a bit into that and uh and see see see what's what yes yeah so what's the most common reaction from people when they realize you're a musician?

Sean 53:14

What's the most common reaction when you realize I'm a musician?

Dan 53:20

Are we shocked?

Sean 53:22

I I I'll do a facial expression. Oh wow, oh that's nice.

Dan 53:28

Oh you've been dreaming a lot, haven't you?

Sean 53:35

I've always said that if you I might not be able to hear you very well, I might not be able to speak very well, but if you give me a trumpet, I'll blow you out the water. I'll blow you out the water. In every band that I've been in, apart from the National Youth Boss band where they had like child prodigies who are now like principal trumpets with like the London Symphony Orchestra, in every single band that I've played in, I've been the it's called the principal corners or the lead trumpet player. I've always been the number one trumpet player. And that's not because I'm not saying that because I'm showing off, I'm saying that because deaf musicians can reach a high standard. Deaf musicians can be people who take leading roles in ensembles, deaf musicians can be people who step forward when no one else does. Because when you're a musician, you have to take risks.

Dan 54:26

Oh yeah, you can't.

Sean 54:28

It's the same as ascuit. What what's the biscuit though?

Dan 54:36

Probably like a probably like a chocolate digestive, maybe Kit Kat.

Sean 54:44

If you said Twix, I don't want to be take a risk for like a shitty chocolate, yeah.

Dan 54:51

No, yeah. You want something good?

Sean 54:53

What do you mean?

Dan 54:53

Like a pink pumper? A pink pumper.

Sean 54:57

Damn, it was going so well.

Dan 55:02

Oh yeah, April fools were yesterday, wasn't it?

Sean 55:11

Yeah. So so um let's let's let's let's not talk about that. But I think that um the more that you take risks, the more that you get used to being uncomfortable, the easier it becomes.

Dan 55:23

And you and you get out of your comfort zone as well.

Sean 55:26

Comfort zone. The sun will come up tomorrow, you're not gonna die. Like you're gonna be fine. Yeah, and you know what, me, the the number of people who are in like really elevated positions because they took risks.

Dan 55:40

Yeah, 100%.

Sean 55:42

Yeah, it is. Or like now as a parent, like I'm gonna have to take some risks for my son. And I don't mean like throw him in a swimming pool, see if he swims. I don't mean like that. I mean like like I I'm gonna have to make a decision as to whether or not my son can go and do some gymnastics.

Dan 56:02

Yeah, it's like it's like an educated risk.

Sean 56:05

Educated risk, for sure. So the idea of like our parents, like your parents and my parents, yeah, paying for music lessons for their deaf son must have been a big fucking deal. Because it's like obviously music lessons aren't cheap. The instruments that they have to rent or buy are not cheap. Is it gonna be worth it? Fuck yeah. Like, I I wouldn't have met, I wouldn't be the kind the confident guy that I am now if I wasn't given the opportunity to stand and play the trumpet on stage. Because it's also about the feedback that you get at the end of the concert, people come up to you. That was fucking brilliant, that show. That was amazing. Well isn't it? And like so so that that builds you up, you know, and and like the feedback we're getting from this podcast as well, mate. It's gonna build you up, and so a big part of where we are now, as people who are doing it and putting ourselves out there, we've kind of built ourselves up here. What are we gonna do with it? What do we do with it? What are we gonna share it with people? Do we keep it to ourselves? Are we gonna tell like tell other people about the experiences that we've had? What what what what do you do with it? And I think that's my challenge to you now. You've reached a certain level with this incredible podcast. You're asking really good questions and you're responding in a really great way, better than some of the other interviewers that I've seen on the TV recently. I won't say the name, Claudia Winkleman. But I mean, you're just doing it, and I think you need to you just need to just like push yourself, man, and just see how far you can go with it and how far you can get other people to go along with you.

Dan 57:41

Oh, thank you. So, how did you end up doing stuff like BB, you know, and getting involved with the BBC and CBBs and all that?

Sean 57:53

So um the BBC stuff is really taken off. There's quite a lot of things that I've been lucky enough to go and do some filming for. And uh, it's not just in front of the camera either. I'm doing a lot of stuff behind the camera as well. So I'm doing a lot of stuff um as a BSL consultant. So I go and I I'll work with the deck people that are on set, and I'll say, So, how are you signing that? What work with me? What what what were you hoping to do? Are you happy with that? Like, and then I'm kind of talking to the producers and and the heads of the BBC about um doing some really exciting stuff. Like, we're doing a film, doing a film, and uh nice, yeah. So that's had the in the green light room. So that's that's all really exciting. But I initially to answer your question, I initially got into it because a friend of mine from from Grey, actually, the theatre company in London, she has her own um talent agency, really, for disabled actors. It's called Triple C, and they're based in Manchester, Salford, Greater Manchester. And she said to me one day, Sean, I'm doing like a launch and I'm inviting all of these agents. Can you come to my launch party and play the trumpet for us as a bit of a bit of a show? And I said, You can get lost, mate. I'm not doing it. Because it was in Salford. I live in York now. I don't live in Liverpool anymore, sadly. But I live in York, and it was like it was just griefy to get from York down to Salford on a rainy Friday night, like two hours in the car in Rush Hour. But I thought, you know what, Melissa? Melissa Johns, she does um, she does loads of stuff actually. She's been in oh, not not Downton Abbey, the other one. I forget it now. But Melissa Johns, she's a wonderful actress, and she's got limb difference, part of her arm is is is is missing. So she's a real advocate for disabled actors, and she said, Can you come and do this? So I did, went and played, told a few jokes, said, I'm a death a deaf musician, like and it's great, basically, like it's all good. And then at the end, BBC came up to me and said, We're doing this musical storyline. We want you to be one of the presenters because you come across very well. And would you like to play on them as well?

Dan 1:00:13

Oh wow.

Sean 1:00:14

So I did, and that was it, and so that that's won quite a few awards now, luckily. And uh, so we went to a few black tie events and and got some prizes, got to go on a stage and and stuff like that. And then they're doing not sure if I'm allowed to say this, but that there might be another series of musical storyline coming out, but you didn't hear that from me.

Dan 1:00:38

So did that feel like a big moment, or did it just feel like another step?

Sean 1:00:47

Who are you? Seriously, hey Jesus, like why why are you doing this to me then? Did it feel like a big step, or did it feel like a bonus, or just the next step? If I'm being honest with you, mate, probably just the next step. I've worked with the BBC before. I've done there's a program called See Here, um, which is like for just for deaf people. Um I've done geeks at Buckingham Palace, I've played at Westminster Abbey, I've I've been um I've worked with professional orchestras with uh with that I've delivered deaf awareness training to to to Lloyd Bank. Oh nice uh to my massive organization. So I think the fact I think for me personally it was the next step, but the bonus part comes with the fact that I was the first person to sign a story, to sign and speak a story um with the BBC Philharmonic Orchestra. And that was a massive bonus. That was like getting when we were talking before about getting sign language out there. Um I think the bonus comes from like the bigger picture of like deaf people are getting seen, they're getting represented on screen. Um, and loads of great work has come my way as a result of that. So, next step in terms of my career and what I'm what I'm trying to do, but um a real bonus in that we're getting deaf people out there rightfully um onto TV screens and on people's phones for sure.

Dan 1:02:31

So so now you're getting into teaching now, aren't you? Like um now you're working with people, you know, as well. So, how did you get into teaching? Was that within the BBC? Was it before, you know?

Sean 1:02:43

So the the teaching thing came before the BBC stuff. So my mum, I know you know my mum. My mum is my mum is like hands down the best teacher I've ever seen. And whether she watches this podcast or not, hi mum. Um she she was like, my mum worked in a really rough school in Bootle called Saviour. It's rough, and like I'll never forget, you know, like when you'd have like an insert day uh or baker days, we used to call them when I was in school. Um I used to go in with my mum when I was off school. I'd go in with my mum and I'd watch my mum teach. And like I was like in primary school, my mum it's a secondary school, my mum would like be teaching English to like year 11 skinets. And like teaching Shakespeare to like um like uh Romeo and Juliet, with all of like the language like that just goes over my head, and it was going over the skin edge heads as well. And my mum just said to everyone, right, who who who what what who's your crew? Who are your mates in school? And like they'd all say, Oh, Nabsy, or like you know, whatever. And then my mum was like, All right, that's they're your mates, are they sounds? And then she'd say to another group of lads, who are your mates? Who's in your crew? And we'd be like, Oh, well, you know, John Z over here, or like Mikhail. And like, and my mum would be like, So we've got we've got two groups of mates over here, sound sound. What would happen if someone from your group started hanging out with someone from your group? What would happen? And you'd be like, Well, we wouldn't speak to them anymore. Like, who do they think they are going over to their group? Like, it's not happening, like, shut up. And my mum was like, Well, that's what happened in Romeo and Juliet. We had the Montague's over here, the Capulets here, and two people like started copping off with each other, and they were like, We're not having that, tell us more. And that was it, and that was the hook. They used to call my mum mum because she was that figure to these guys.

Dan 1:04:52

How did that make you feel? Like you're stealing my mum there.

Sean 1:04:56

Pissed off is not the word, mate. I'd be like, Yeah, come back off, mate. It's my mummy, me. But then when I when I when I became a teacher myself, I mean, mum, when I was training to be a teacher, it was just like colossal. Do you know what I mean? I know I know your mum's a bit of a living legend as well. But my mum was always like, if you've got your lesson plan, differentiation, your marking, your assessments, da da da da da. Even to things like when it's break time, go and sit in the staff room and talk to people. You might have had a shit lesson and you might be thinking, I don't want to see anyone. Get yourself in the staff room and have a laugh. You'll feel better for me. And I do. I do now. So I yeah, so I've got a lot to thank my mum for. And like even before I became a qualified teacher, I was teaching trumpet in um in school in Liverpool um when I was a student, when I was at university. So I've got loads of experience of doing that, and then once I qualified as a teacher and I started working with deaf kids, it was more like workshops. Getting deaf children together and teaching them brass instruments and stuff like that. Um, but what I do now is I go into schools and I work with mainstream teachers, and I just make sure that the deaf children in their class have got everything that they need. Check the hearing aids are working, check the wearing the mic, the radio aid, the microphone, I make sure that the parents are on board. So lots of phone calls to parents. Um and then yeah, talking to the deaf kid themselves as well. Yeah, so that's that's me.

Dan 1:06:30

So was that always the plan? Like to teach, or is it just something that you just went went with?

Sean 1:06:37

100%. If if I didn't get to play for Liverpool, it was always going to be for me. And actually, the thing that drew me to teaching was was absolutely my mum getting alongside these kids and like seeing them achieve and seeing them like want to do well because my mum always said that she loved being at school because it wasn't home. I don't think my mum had a good, a good, a good upbringing. Um, but she loved being at school because it just wasn't home, and like she could like she could progress, she could achieve, she could learn, and she had some really good teachers when she was in school. And so she's she's standing on their shoulders as a teacher, and I'm standing on my mum's shoulders now, and no doubt there'll be other deaf kids who will stand on my shoulders, and and they'll go on to be teachers, musicians, or podcast hosts uh at some point down the line.

Dan 1:07:36

So, do you see yourself in the kids that you work with?

Sean 1:07:43

I I see the struggle that they go through. I see the biggest thing that I see is yeah, I I heard you, I understand. That's the biggest thing that I see. When I see, I think the biggest thing for me is that I know when they're lying, I know when they are when they haven't heard, or they don't understand what they're made to say next to them, or they don't really want to do the thing that's being asked of them. There's just like it's called a learned helplessness, where they're sitting in class, the teacher's just talking, the lesson's going on, and the teacher will say, any questions, does anyone not understand? You need to empower the child to put the hand up and say, I'm I'm sorry, I I don't know. But a lot of the time, 99% of the time, the dead kid will just and copy, like I did, just copy the answers from other children. That's what I see.

Dan 1:08:48

Yeah, you you literally answered my next question there, because my next question was literally like, what do they struggle with now that you recognized instantly?

Sean 1:08:59

There is that, yeah, but I think also you know, like the we have this whole thing at the moment with identity. So like people who identify as gender fluid, or if they identify as trans or queer or straight, heterosexual, or if they identify as where I work, there are a lot of Romanian gypsy families. And so when they come into an English school and they're working with they're playing with English children and they're speaking better English from their parents a lot of the time, their sense of identity is shaped by who they who they who they're mixing with, and the people around them, yeah, yeah, 100%. And so I think identity, a deaf child's identity. Am I deaf? I I I can hear you with my hearing aids. So but what yeah, but you're telling me that I wear hearing aids, so that means that I'm deaf, but I don't know any sign language. So am I not deaf enough? Am I actually hearing? What what's where am I? So I think identity is probably the biggest thing that on people's mind at the moment in deaf education, for sure.

Dan 1:10:15

So yeah, so if somebody is listening who actually wants to do better, what should they change straight away?

Sean 1:10:24

If somebody is listening who actually wants to do better, what should they change? I would say their friendship group.

Dan 1:10:34

That's important.

Sean 1:10:36

Absolutely. I would say the amount the content that you consume on social media. I would say the YouTube videos, the podcast that you listen to. Listen to this podcast, people. Um I would also say you need to have time in your life where you can reflect. So can you can you find someone who will hold you accountable? So, for example, would you, as a podcast host who wants to be the best podcast host in the world and you're well on the way, would you be able to have the courage to find someone who asks you difficult questions who will say to you, Oh, so you're you're just on YouTube at the moment, right? Are you creating or are you consuming? Which which of the two is it? Because if you're just sitting there watching it, you're not doing it, you're not, you don't deserve to be the best podcast host in the world. Are you thinking about the way you're asking questions? Are you thinking about the way that you're gonna get get build a bridge with the guest? What other things that you're doing? So I think having that time to reflect and to be honest with someone, like brutally honest with someone, is is important. And I think the last thing is you've got to well, it's kind of like two things, really. You've got to believe in yourself and take risks, you've got to get used to feeling embarrassed, and sometimes, mate, when you're deaf, people don't expect things from deaf people. No, people don't expect you to have like a high-quality outpost, they don't expect you to work with the BBC, they don't expect you to be a professional musician or to be a qualified teacher, they don't expect that, and so I've used that to my advantage because you you will feel the same. When everyone else is kind of like born with no diagnoses, with no diagnosis of deafness, ADHD, or autism, they're kind of like able to just just automatically be at this level, academically, socially, uh, whatever, to use this kind of like visual. I don't like using it, but it's a good way to explain what I'm trying to say. When you're deaf, you have to work harder just to listen, just to get to the same standard. You have to work and work and work and work and work and work to get to the same standard as someone, but then you're just used to working your ass off. You're just used to working, and it's the same with you. You you've got to work so much harder to get to a certain level, but being sat at the back of the room because you're disruptive, or being sat at the back of the room because you get in the way. You've had to kind of deal with all of that, those labels, and you've had to kind of think, right, you're a twat. I'm not gonna listen to you, I'm gonna focus on me, and like that that builds up. You're gonna right.

Dan 1:13:40

I've got one last question.

Sean 1:13:42

Don't worry, we're in the one more question.

Dan 1:13:47

So, what would you say to a kid going through what you went through when you were younger?

Sean 1:13:53

Oh, what would I say to a kid who went through what I went through when I was younger? What would I say? I wouldn't really say anything, I'd sit with them. I wouldn't say anything, I would just talk to them and I'd listen to what they've got to say. And based on what they were going through, I'd probably say something like, Is it really important? Is it really important? The fact you're getting called 4 ears, get called four eyes, get called four ears, is it really important? You don't want to wear your human age, okay.

Dan 1:14:33

Why or maybe they're jealous because you've got an extra gadget, you know what I mean?

Sean 1:14:40

That's part of it, actually. Part of the work that I do now when I'm working with those children who are very similar to me, is they will say there aren't any advantages to being death. And I say, We get a good night's sleep. Okay, we get a very good night's sleep. I have a two-year-old baby, we get a very good night's sleep. My wife isn't deaf, but she's got sharp elbows, short turns, Sean. Get a good night's sleep, you get a free bus pass. You get technology that's just for you, not for hearing people. This is like when you say the word gadget, this is just for me. That's just for you. The other thing, as well, with technology, is that you can stream from your phone or an iPad. It's just like headphones, like headphones, so it uh they've all got Bluetooth. Oh, that's correct, and you can stream, and you can turn off the background noise as well. That's right. So Stephen Gerard is on the overlap podcast this morning. So I I went to get my hair cut for our podcast fall, and I listened to C VG without any traffic, without any winds, came through nice and clearly. So there's loads of advantages. That's good. You need to find where you can use it to your benefits for your advantage, yeah.

Dan 1:16:00

Right.

Sean 1:16:01

Sorry, mate.

Dan 1:16:02

Take care, thank you. Take care, bye bye, thank you.