The Rhythm of Conservation: How a Drummer's Passion Turned into a Podcast Phenomenon

In this episode Rick interviews musician, actor, music director and podcaster, Jon Rossi. Earlier in the week Rick was a guest on Jon's podcast, Rossifari - but today Rick had Jon in the hot seat!

In a world where music and wildlife conservation rarely intersect, curiosity grew into passion and circumstances created opportunity. Through his podcast, Rossifari, Jon showcases the conservation mission behind all good zoos and aquariums, and connects his listeners to the many wonderful animals of the world.

Animals Nature & You on Instagram: @AnimalsNatureandYou

Connect with Jon:

Rossifari.com

IG: @Rossifari

FB: @Rossifari

TikTok: @RossifariPod

Other links mentioned in this episode:

SAFE Red Panda on Facebook and Instagram

SAFE Tree Kangaroo on Instagram

Connect with Rick:

ZoologyRick.com

Social media:

Instagram

Threads

Facebook

YouTube

Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop

Artist: Burgberg

Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

I love the fact that you never fully know the impact that you're having in this world. I've had people come up to me years after the fact and tell me that because they listened to the podcast, they joined the zoo world. Or a person who reached out and said, Yeah, we got these checks during like a little after the Ming COVID thing, these economic relief checks, whatever. And they're like, I didn't need it. So I donated the entire thing to one of the zoos that you featured. And it's like, I didn't know that when it was happening. I didn't know, you know, and there are plenty of weeks where I'm sure none of that happens, too.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

I'm Rick Schwartz, educator, public speaker, and all-around curious guy. Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I've worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature, and You, a podcast that explores the connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome to another episode of Animals, Nature and You. Today we are welcoming John Rossi to the podcast. Now he's the host of his own podcast, the Rosafari Podcast. He's also a touring musician, actor, and music director who happens to visit zoos and aquariums and conservation organizations when traveling on the road. Earlier this week, I was a guest on John's podcast where we discussed my career as a spokesperson and ambassador for the San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, getting laid off, and then where's my career going from here? And yes, of course, we talk about zoos, conservation, and animals. Today, though, it's my turn to start asking John about his career, how he fell into being a champion for zoos and aquariums and conservation organizations. And of course, I do have to find out exactly how did red pandas, tree kangaroos, sea turtles, and bintrongs land on his list of being his favorite animals. So with that, John, I do appreciate you doing this collaboration with me. It was a great to be on your podcast. Thank you so much for taking the time to be on my new podcast, Animals, Nature, and You.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

I'm so excited to be the you in that podcast this week. I'm so excited you're doing this, Rick. I love, I love you. We've go way back. And I also just I love podcasts. I think it's a great space. So I when I saw you launch this, I got really excited.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

Oh, well, thanks, man. I appreciate that. And I purposely kept the intro and and your bio very minimal, which is not normally how I operate, because I want people, I want the audience to experience the unpacking of how you got to where you are. So as of right now, you've got this awesome podcast. It's been going six years, right? Like 2020 is when it started? Yeah, yeah. So it was a it was a COVID project. Okay. So you had a COVID project of a podcast, Ross Safari, combination of your last name and Safari. And you've got over 600 plus episodes at the time of this recording. I just checked to make sure I had my numbers right, which is ridiculously impressive. You were kind enough to reach out and have me on your podcast when I was a spokesperson for San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. You travel, so this podcast, if you're only watching and listening to this podcast, you travel all over to zoos, you talk to people from all over the world doing zoo conservation work, et cetera. You have solo episodes where you're just like reading awesome new breakthroughs and news and conservation. And yet your day job is what? I am a drummer.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

And I do lots of other things. I act and I music direct and all that stuff. But like when people ask me who I am for my entire life, I've been like, hi, I'm John. I'm a drummer. That's it. That's how I always saw myself.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

Right. And from my side of the fence, from my world, looking out and seeing you when you you initially reached out to request being on your show, I was like, wow, this guy's doing a lot for conservation, dude, a lot of communications. And part of, I mean, A, I wanted you on on my on my podcast because you're awesome and I love talking to you. But it also fits really well into what I try to always share with people is you don't have to be that PhD scientist, which, you know, I've had a couple of those on the show already, and they're great and they're awesome. And they also share too, they have other loves and other passions beyond the work they do with conservation. You're coming at it from you started off in performance theater, drumming, music, acting. When so COVID project for the podcast, I would assume, given how much you are vested in conservation and wildlife, that there was a passion or a love for that before you started this project of the of the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Somewhat, yes, but I'm amazed myself at how deep it's become and how quickly. Um, so when I was growing up, I I grew up uh in the Harrisburg, Pennsylvania area. So we had uh Zoo America was right there, but I was about an hour, a little less than an hour away from Baltimore. And so every chance I got, I went to the National Aquarium where I fell in love with sea turtles, and I went to the Maryland Zoo at Baltimore. And once I was able to drive myself, it became a thing that was so important to me. If I was dating someone and it looked like it was serious, and I'm talking high school serious, but you know, still, most of the time. Yeah. And I would, I would take them to Baltimore on a day trip, like fairly early on. Because if you can't handle me when I'm sitting and staring at a sea turtle and messing up for 20 minutes, then then you don't deserve me as the cool, like, you know, top drummer guy at the school who you get to date. Um, so I always had that. But at the same time, I'm fortunate that they were good facilities, because if it had been the Tiger King zoo, I think I would have gone just as much. I didn't know. I didn't know what accreditation was. I didn't realize how much the industry as a whole is exploitative of animals and it is a problem. And um, I'm just so lucky that I ended up going to good facilities. All the places close to me taught me the right things. And then when I started touring, touring is challenging. It's a lot of fun, but it is challenging. And some of the tours, my second ever national tour was 11 months. I was gone for 11 months. And I think there were six total weeks where I was partially off during that time. But you're with the same people, you're on a bus, you're you're in hotel rooms, you're, you know, I've I watch people, people that I love, have full-on breakdowns on the bus and just um, you know, stuff that I would have never expected from them. And I I was I'm a pretty happy-go-lucky guy, but I was I was not super pleased with all of that. And then there's a lot of drinking and light drug abuse, nothing crazy, but like, you know, certain things that that I'm not really into. Um, and it happens a lot on tour. And so I decided I needed to not be surrounded by that as much. And so what I started doing was instead of staying up late and drinking or just hanging out with everybody who was drunk or average, whatever, I would go to bed early. I'd go to bed right after our shows. And then as soon as we got into the town that we were going to next, I would have already looked up the local zoo or aquarium or both. I would often have the Uber waiting for me. Oh, nice. When like I could I got to the point where I could time it out where I would get off the bus and not even go to my room. I would walk in and grab the Uber or walk off and grab the Uber, um, or maybe walk in and drop my bags. Um, and I would go to uh a zoo or aquarium. And it was amazing. And I started learning about all these animals, and I'm I'm that nerd that reads the signs. Um, I'm I'm that guy. I'm the one who does that. And um I started talking to zookeepers and I would only ask about the animals. I didn't want to know anything about the people at the time, but you know, who who is your your red panda? What is what is that weird black furry thing that I found out is a binter on, which I now love, you know? And as I would talk to these people there, they would start talking about the animals and they would share their own experiences. And I remember thinking at the time, this should be a podcast, because uh honestly, you listen to a lot of podcasts and audiobooks and stuff on a tour bus. And so I tried to find one, and there really wasn't one. A few zoos at the time had maybe started one, tried a few episodes, a lot of it, as you know, it's hard to keep up. Yeah. Um, and so I was like, oh, that's cool. I wish there was one. And that's as far as it got until COVID came. And an entire year of work disappeared in one day. Yeah, no touring. Yeah, no, no, nothing. Oh, no, nothing. And um, at the time I was um my wife uh is a veterinarian and she was not home. She was off doing an internship, externship, whatever, and had our pets with her. And so even though she would shortly come home because COVID shut that down too, I was in a house completely alone with no work, no animals, no love of my life, no nothing. And my my mental health wasn't the best at that point. It always had been. I was fine and it crashed hard. And um, I remember thinking that I needed to do anything, something, anything, whatever. And I, you know, I reached out to some friends and we started doing some um long-distance recording projects together for fun, uh, one of which ended up becoming the theme song of Rasafari. Um, but I remembered the podcast and I had all the mics and stuff upstairs. And so, yeah, I I launched a podcast. I set a starting date, I re set everything up, and I just, I was like, this is happening. And it was, it was literally just for my mental health.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

So, did it start off? Because I honestly, I goodness, at that time of all of that going on, we were trying to figure out if we're gonna keep filming the second season of the zoo San Diego. We were, I was, I had my daughter was probably well, she was in elementary school, and so it's school from home. I was working from home while also trying to figure out while we're doing production. So I don't know. Your first couple seasons, were you just doing a solo or were you reaching out trying to interview people?

SPEAKER_02 10:03

I got very lucky. So um as I started uh going around to those zoos and everything, I would take pictures. I had a camera with me and I started the Instagram of Rosafari, and it was just like a fun thing for me. I had no plans or goals. Um, but I would tag the zoos and sometimes keepers would find them and start following me. And so I had a small, like I maybe like I had probably 3,000 followers when I launched the podcast, which isn't a ton, but I mean 3,000 people is a lot of people. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, and a lot of them were keepers who had found me because I took pictures of their animals and they would comment and stuff. And so I built relationships with some of them, including Jake Bel Air, who is now at the National Aviary but had been at the Nashville Zoo, and um is just he's one of those people who connects everybody always. And uh, he was one of the first people I reached out to and I was like, Hey, do you think your zoo would let you do a podcast if I started a podcast? And he was like, I'll ask. And they let him. And um, another keeper that I had become friends with, uh Danica Wolf, um, who was at Zoo Atlanta at the time, same thing. She was able to vouch for me because she had gotten to know me as a person a little bit, just online. But uh it worked. And once I had two actual AZA accredited zoos on my podcast, then as I started emailing, I would be like, Well, I've done interviews with these two, and and then it was easier. But the first year, first two years, there was a whole lot of trickiness. There were a whole lot of PR people that were like, Who are you? What are you? And I'd be writing and saying, Hey, can I have an hour of this person's time for the hundred people that are listening? You know, it's like, uh, but uh, but it always worked out. There were always facilities willing to do it. And um, I leaned heavily. I think Nashville was like probably did eight interviews there fairly early on because they were willing to let me. But no, it worked out that from the start that I had good guests on. That's awesome. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

And I I love the trajectory you've been on. And it's one of those things, too. I think you kind of touched on it. Sometimes it can be hard to stay consistent with podcasting. You know, I uh looking, having initially done the podcast for the San Diego Zoo, knowing the statistics that it's usually there's some ridiculously large, like near million something podcast, but only a small percentage get past three to ten episodes. And then beyond that, it's a much, much smaller number that go past two and a half to three years. And then after that, it's like if if you've made it to three years and you don't haven't hit burnout, you're you can have possible success. So I love that you are at over 600 episodes, that you've been doing this for six years. And it honestly, I have to say, it seems like in the last year, you're getting even more momentum. You're getting more involved with the conservation side of stuff, getting more involved with safe projects for different species. And I'm loving it because again, I want to I want to lean into the fact that part of this, my podcast exists because I want people to understand that conservation, getting involved, making a difference isn't a far away going to the country and stopping poachers. You can do it while you have a different job. You can be a part of the bigger picture, that it is a collective, it's all of us. So with that in mind, I want to ask you how has it been balancing doing your podcast and getting more involved with conservation while also maintaining being a drummer and doing all the other work that you do?

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Um, great question. So I have two answers for you that are going to contradict each other a little bit. But um I'll I'll explain. So the first one is balancing the time and stuff has actually been really easy. I'm fortunate that my actual job of playing the drums is something that I do some weeks out of the year, some days out of that week. And my really, really busy days are like four to five hours of work, right? I have not had a nine to five my entire adult life, ever since I made it as a musician. So, like, you know, a real heavy day for me is gonna be two shows. The shows are gonna be under two hours long, and then there's like the time to get into my costume or whatever I'm wearing. So that's my real heavy day. And there are a lot of days where my work day starts at seven and ends at 8:30 or something like that, you know, in the evening. So um finding the time has not been the problem, and and I'm very fortunate with that. Emotionally, it has been a roller coaster. And the reason why is from the time I remember, I distinctly remember in middle school, um, my sixth grade choir teacher of all things showed us a video clip of the Beatles on Sullivan. And my brain broke in that moment. And I watched Ringo Star up there. And I I had wanted to be a lawyer before that or something like that. And from that moment on, I had already been drumming for a couple years, but it never as a profession, never thought of that as a possibility. And just like all the kids who actually watched it back in February of '64, I was like, oh, that's what I'm going to do. And from that point until some some point in Rasafari, it was the only thing I ever wanted to do. And I've had other passions and other things that I care about, you know, hobbies and stuff. And I I like putting time into things that matter. I've I've often volunteered for different causes or raised money for different causes before I I found the conservation side of things. But now it's kind of all I care about is the animal stuff and conservation and helping to spread the word. I love playing the drums. I I love sitting on stage and and delighting an audience. And I think that especially in the times we're in now, that's actually an important thing to be able to do. But I will tell you, man, I don't care about it like I used to. It's my day job. It's a cool day job, but it's been really weird. It's been a major identity shift for me. Yeah, I found something that I'm way more passionate about. And I will tell you, I was playing recently at the Walnut Street Theater, which is one of the most famous theaters in the country. And um, I was in the middle of a drum solo at this theater, a full-on drum solo, 1,500 people staring at me, everyone else on stage not playing. And I mean, that's my job. That's not uncomfortable for me, right? Right. And all I was doing was thinking about a meeting I had coming up for safe red panda in the middle of the solo. And even that my brain was like, John, pay attention, man. It's a it's an improvised drum solo. And I'm sitting there thinking about red pandas, and I'm like, dang it, John. And I had to focus back in and get, you know, but like, and I, you know, that would have never happened before. Right. I I used to, I made every choice in my life built around drumming and my career and what I thought would be best for that. And to have that passion not disappear, but fade in comparison to how important the conservation stuff is to me has been really cool and really good, but really scary. And really, I I look at my wife and I say, What do I want to be when I grow up? You know, and I'm I'm grown up, y'all. There's oh man.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

But the saying I adhere to is if we just get older, we don't ever grow up. But that's that's the truth. That's the truth. So have you sat with that to then explore why you think that's happened? Like if I asked you why do you think that shift has happened, where you could be sitting there at a very famous theater doing an improvised drum solo, which has been who you are at your core for so long? Childhood dream, really. Like if childhood you could see you on that stage in that moment where everybody else is silent, you've got the entire audience wrapped up. Why do you think your heart center has shifted, or maybe not even shifted? I maybe it should be looked at as growth. I don't know. Share with me. Why is it then that that your mind is wandering to red pandas at that moment? Do you do you know why that's happened or what's what's caused that flow?

SPEAKER_02 18:13

I think it's because I I think I think music matters. I think entertaining mat I truly do believe all of that. I've said that my whole life. Were I ever to walk away from it, which I can't even imagine even now, I would support the heck out of everybody who does it still. And I like I said, I can't imagine doing that now. Um but with that said, when I think of a red panda or a tree kangaroo or a binturong or a sea turtle, uh, having I almost said having no one advocating for them, but let's be honest, we have a whole industry that we but you know what I mean. Like I do, yeah. They can't advocate for themselves. Correct. Correct. And even in the conservation world, the the dirty little secret, and it's funny because I was just talking, uh I was visiting a good friend um at Cleveland Metro Park Zoo yesterday, Dr. uh Diana uh Kester, and she does a lot with tree kangaroos. And we were talking about how, you know, uh people and egos still get in the way in conservation. And I've had stories on my podcast talk about that, and I've had um things that shock me, you know, and and and depressed me and and that kind of thing. And so even though there are people doing the thing, the animals can't do it for themselves. Right. And I also feel like conservation as a umbrella thing. Yes, I focus on a couple of species because if we all go after everything, we're just you're never gonna get everything done. You know, at some point you have to say no, find your niche and stick to it. But I feel like every impact that I have with animals is somehow bigger and matters to the world more and matters to to creatures that can't do anything for themselves. Like right now, as we're recording, I am doing a fundraiser for the tree kangaroo conservation uh project and um program. I always say project. I don't know why. Anyway, TKCP. And um it's just a small thing I'm doing on my socials. Um it's it's kind of a raffle to win a very unique uh plush that I found and stuff. And um, but it's brought in over$500 for tree kangaroo conservation. And that's not a huge amount of money or anything, but it's it's 500 bucks that will go to Papua New Guinea, where that is a ton of money, and will have a major impact there. And that's really, really special. And to think that that that impact could save one tree kangaroo, just just one, that's incredible. That's a different kind of thing. And part of what I think it is too is that I love the fact that you never fully know the impact that you're having in this world. I've had people come up to me years after the fact and tell me that because they listened to the podcast, they joined the the zoo world. Or uh a person who reached out and said, Yeah, we got these um these checks, you know, during like a little after the main COVID thing, these these uh economic relief checks, whatever. And they're like, I didn't need it. So I donated the entire thing to one of the zoos that you featured. Nice. And it's like, I didn't know that when it was happening. I didn't know, you know, and there are plenty of weeks where I'm sure none of that happens too. But I love not knowing the impact that I'm having. Whereas like I feel like as a musician, I know what impact I'm having. I can see the people, I can, I can see their spirits lift. It's cool to see, it's nice, but like it doesn't have a lasting impact. Those people are going to go back out into the world feeling a little bit happier and maybe maybe do something nice for some. I don't know. But with conservation, you never fully realize the impact you're having. And I think that's a really beautiful thing.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

I love that. Is there any particular moment or experience that is that you think has drawn you to? The species that you are most excited about, the tree kangaroo, the red panda, the sea turtle obviously goes back to your roots for the aquarium. But I mean, having 30 plus years in animal care and conservation education, benturongs, red pandas, and tree kangaroos are clearly the lesser known in the general public's eyes. In the zoo world itself, we all know these species well. But I can say in the general public's eye, these are not species that you can drop their name and people like, oh yeah, I know exactly what that is. So is there was there a particular instant or what was it? What is it that drew you to these particular?

SPEAKER_02 22:37

So there's there's a story for two of them. And then the one that doesn't have a story is Binterong. I just remember seeing a Binterong for the first time or registering that I was seeing one for the first time. And my heart grew three sizes and I was like, oh, I love you. Right. And like I I still do. I don't totally get it. When people ask me to explain why I like them, I'm like, I don't, they're really cool. I can tell you facts.

SPEAKER_01 23:01

I don't see how you couldn't fall in love with them. I mean, uh, I do recognize my per personal passion for them is because of the the individual I first worked with, the very first Ben Tron I ever worked with, he stole my heart, wrapped it up, done and done. So now every Ben Trong I see, I'm just like, I melt into a puddle, even if it's on my phone screen. Uh so I I totally get that, but I think I might be somewhat biased.

unknown 23:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:21

But I get it. I understand that happening to you. But tell me more about the news of Red Panda.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

Red Panda. So I um I went through a divorce. I moved to Philadelphia. I didn't know anybody. It was a very, you know, tricky time in my life. And um I got a membership to the Philadelphia Zoo. And um I went, it was a time when I wasn't gigging like a lot, like I had some downtime after my move. And so I would go to the Philly zoo three, four, five, six, seven times a week sometimes. Um, and uh I did, I did have Zoe at the time. She's not my wife yet, but she she was there. Um, but she was in vet school. And so, you know, she'd be gone for hours every day. And so I would go to the zoo every day and just walk around and experience things and be outside in nature. And I remember I had seen red pandas before, and they were cute and they were cool. And I I was at at the time the way the the habitats were set up, I actually walked past the first habitat. I I saw them, I was like, oh hello, you two cute little red pandas. And then I hit the second habitat, and there was an old girl there name, her name was uh Maylin, and she she lived there, she was in her late teens at the time, probably like 16, 17. Um, it was shortly before she passed, actually. But she just looked at me and she was just crunching on sam some bamboo. And I don't know why, but when she looked at me, I felt like she was looking into my soul. And I never felt that way about uh any of these animals before. It was always um I mean, you you unless you are working with them or spending time with them, you have a parasocial relationship with an animal at a zoo. That's fine.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

Uh and this was that too. I fully acknowledge that logically, but it didn't feel like it. It felt like she was looking at me and she was searching into my soul. So I started talking to her. And I would go to the Philly zoo and I would talk to her all the time, like every day. And I just fell in love. And then I started to notice the other ones over there. You know, Coombi was the male who's still there, and I've actually gotten to meet now, which is incredible. And I would go and I would talk to these guys and I would hang out. And I don't know, again, I don't really know what it was in that moment, but it was Mae Lynn that I needed in that moment. And granted, I was spending a lot of time there. So statistically, this kind of makes sense, but things started happening while I was there. I would get offers for gigs. I got an offer for a huge tour, I got an offer for all these things that that were starting to show me that like life was getting back on track and that we were we were gonna be okay, you know? And I started calling it Red Panda Magic. And I am not woo-woo, it was just me being silly, but like I swear I'd be waiting for an email for like four hours and it wouldn't come. And I'd be like, all right, screw it, I'm going to the zoo. And I'd be walking around the zoo for like an hour and nothing would come. And then I would go to the Red Panda habitat and bling, there was the email. And it was what I wanted, you know? And it was really funny. And that was, and then I found out like I started reading the signs, and hey, it turns out they're endangered. And then I learned about Red Panda Network and like, you know, all of those things came from that. And then with tree kangaroos, it's the dumbest story ever. And that makes me so happy because like I I was about to say, sometimes the dumbest stories are. I love it because the Red Panda thing was like so personal and so emotional, and like, oh, it it's what I needed at that time, Rick. Right. And then I go to uh I I'm I'm online one day, and the uh San Diego Zoo, uh the the uh the Safari Park was getting the Australia area, right? Yeah. And I'm familiar you might be, yeah. And um I saw that y'all did an online quiz and I hate them. I hate them. But it was the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. Of course I was gonna do one. Of course I was gonna do my part to contribute, right? As though that actually matters at all. But it was what Australia animal are and I was like, this is cool. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be a platypus, because y'all are getting platypuses and that's cool. And it came up as a Matche's tree kangaroo. And I remember I was so confused by being an animal that I had never heard of and kind of annoyed that I I took a screenshot of my result because I was like, I need to look into what these little goobers are, because it was very cute, I could tell that. And I'm so glad I took that screenshot because I still have that screenshot. Nice, which is a like nice personal memory to me of like this dumb thing, talking about how you never know what impact you're going to have when you do stuff in this world, right? The person or people who designed that quiz, it was probably a goofy thing. It had to go through like six layers of approval. And I'm sure at least one person was like, Why are we doing that? All right, whatever, go ahead, you know, because that that happens all the time, right? And um, but it got out there and I found out I was a matchy's tree kangaroo. And uh, by the way, having now spent a lot of time with matchies tree kangarooos, I'm in no way a matchy street kangaroo. That was a terrible job. But it it made me look into them and learn about them, and I fell in love. And then I was doing a gig in New Mexico, and the band that I was playing with was based out of LA. And so they flew us into LA. We drove to New Mexico, then we drove back. And we drove back way earlier than expected. So I got to Los Angeles at like some ungodly early hour after like a multi-hour car ride. And I was there and my flight wasn't until the next day. And I was like, wait, that new Australia section opened. I can go meet myself. And I rented a car and I drove to Escondido, and I really was going to see the platypus. I mean, in all honesty, that that's really cool. Uh, and I did that, and then I walked up and I saw a tree kangaroo. And because I felt like, oh, we're like, you know, the internet tells me that we are, we are, we're friends, we're related, right? We're kindred spirits, right? I just sat there and I was watching and I started taking photos and I just fell in love. And it caused me to do research and learn about them. And, you know, now I'm on safe tree kangaroo. So like it's it's such a dumb start to the story because it was a stupid online quiz. And I even love that at the time I was naive enough to be like, the San Diego Zoo, Safari Park, needs my click. I'm helping them, you know, that's the dumbest thought ever.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

But it is, but it isn't. I mean, I write.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

I mean, and it that's would we pull back and look at the work we do, whether it's your podcast, my podcast, social media, whether it's a silly online quiz from a zoo, and and you even saying, look, this is a dumb reason why I like these guys. But the reality is you go back to that person who had that idea, like, oh, we should do this online quiz to help promote it, and then you draw that thread all the way through through from that one person in the office who had that idea for them to do this, to now what you're doing, raising that 500 bucks or more possibly. That's, I mean, that's there's nothing, and that's the other side of it too, right? So in my world, everyone wants we need to, we need to measure, we need to be able to measure our impact. And I get that from an from an academic side of things, from people doing these studies, trying to justify the work of of zoos and and wildlife education. It's like, how can we measure the impact? Or are we just pretending there's something there so we can do this? But your story is a great example, albeit academically it'd be considered anecdotal. Right. But to what you said earlier, too, we don't always know the ripple effect that we have. And and I've and previous interviews I've I've discussed that as the the invisible ripple. We don't see necessarily what we do. Sometimes we do, like if you throw that rock in into the pond, you get a bounce back off a log and the ripple comes back to you a little bit. Sometimes we get a glimpse of that from somebody coming to us telling you, hey, it was that zoo you featured. I gave them my my you know bonus checks to because I didn't need the money. That story about the tree kangaroo and also the red panda, I think show not only the value in zoos showcasing these animals, sharing what's going on with them, getting people interested, whatever means necessary, silly online quiz or a sign that only three people will ever read, that still has put an impact on you to the point. Now, again, we go back to what you said earlier. You're sitting there doing a drum solo in the best theater ever, with all these people paying attention to you, and your brain's like, red pandas, red pandas, red pandas. So I mean, I just I love that story, man. I don't think it's dumb at all. I think that's that's so cool. And I mean, for me personally, I like you're describing the online quiz and describing then going to see the habitats. I'm like, I remember where I was at that time working for that organization.

SPEAKER_00 31:52

So that was that was kind of cool too.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

Well, that's that's so cool. And that's what I really I really appreciate you coming on the podcast because I just can't say it enough, it feels like, for people to realize that you can have a different career path, you can be doing whatever. And it's just sort of that to me, what your story you're sharing your story with me and the audience here is it shows that as we lean into our passions and we acknowledge our passions, whether it's for a silly reason or for a personal reason, whether it is woo-woo or not woo-woo, or just the way the world works out that you got emails right there at the Red Panda Habitat every time. Whatever it may be, I think it's when we pay attention to those things and we lean into it, that's when we start to feel like we're making a difference. And and we have that connection. Uh, part of the thing I rolled through in my brain coming up with how I want to drive this this podcast and the stories we share here is what is that connection that we have? What is that connection to animals and to nature? And what how do we explore that more? How do we become a little more curious about that? So I appreciate you being willing to share those stories, whether you feel they're silly or not, or whatever it may be. Uh, I do want to ask. So, as we're recording this, it is it is mid-February. This should come out the end of March. You had mentioned the fundraiser you're doing now. Do you have anything else coming up in the future, or do these things kind of come up spontaneously as far as how you see yourself supporting uh these different species?

SPEAKER_02 33:19

Sure. So um I am a member of the executive committee of Safe Red Panda.

SPEAKER_01 33:24

And what is that exactly for those who don't know?

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Yeah, great question. So um the ACA has a series of conservation programs called the Safe Program, Saving Animals from Extinction. And um you you basically pick a species and you you design a conservation program around it. And each one, there are some parameters you have to follow, but um each one is its own unique program. And um so for Safe Red Panda, we are currently partnering with Red Panda Network um on some vaccination campaigns. And uh by the time I can tell you this now, you're the first person I can tell this to because when it's out, this will be public. Um breaking news. Yes, this is really exciting. So we are working on um canopy connector bridges in Nepal. Oh and so the idea is that we we've seen some studies that show basically that red pandas won't cross roads, even if their roads, um what happens a lot in Nepal is an area gets logged and they build these small roads to do the logging and then they leave. And the roads are basically abandoned. They're not like a red panda's not gonna get hit by a car. But if a red panda sees that road, it's like, nope, I am not crossing. So the habitat fragmentation there is even worse than it is in a lot of places. Wow. Because the pandas are like, absolutely not. Um, and so we came up with the idea of uh canopy bridges through the trees so that they will hopefully cross over, kind of like um some of the wildlife crossings that you see over highways and and stuff like that, you know. And so we have designed a few and we are currently working on getting them. Uh, we're going to test them in zoos and see what works and what doesn't work and refine our designs. And then we're going to start to put them up in Nepal and see if we can't uh re-reconnect some habitat over there. Wow. Um, yeah, and I'm really excited about that program. Uh it's it's one of the first things we came up with. I've been sitting on this for like a year and a half, and I just want to scream it from the mountaintops. So that is so cool. Yeah, that's gonna be the next big focus.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

Yeah, that's huge. So, I mean, my brain, wow. Because so when, gosh, years and years and years ago, when we really started talking about habitat fragmentation for other species, whether it was a giant panda or even elephants, as populations grow, highways get put in, that fragmentation creates these uh population islands. And I'm saying this more for people listening who may not know. Right, right. Because I know you know. So the idea then is you get these either you lose genetic diversity because there's no or you lose population altogether because the males can't find females, vice versa, or the babies grow up and they can't leave their natal habitat and the and create their own uh spaces. The idea that this can be done for red pandas through these canopy bridges, how awesome is that? If um if people wanted to find out more about this, and so you can talk about it when this officially comes out, what would should there be a link I can put in the show notes or find you somewhere? Or what's the best way to find out more about this?

SPEAKER_02 36:15

Yeah, so so follow me at Rosafari or at RosafariPod on TikTok. Um also SafeRed Panda has our own Instagram and Facebook pages and stuff. It's just at SafeRedPanda. Um and uh yeah, it's it's we're gonna have a lot of content coming out. We're gonna be sharing about this. Um we're going to be, we actually already are selling some merch, and that money will be going to um to help you know build these and implement them in Nepal. Um, and also if if you like fun little things, uh, the follow company, which is the company that does the bracelets and plushes, yeah, yeah, where you can track animals. We partnered with them last year. Um, and you can now track Red Pandas and um get your bracelet, and plushes will be coming out this year, I believe. And uh that, you know, those sales, 10% of each sale goes directly to Safe Red Panda, and then 10% goes to the overall Safe program at the AZA, which then distributes grants to the various programs to work on things. So it's a great way to have some fun, track Red Pandas, wear something cool, and at the same time, you know, be giving to that conservation work.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

So uh this reminds me a bit looking back the initial concept. So, you know, you're saying obviously we've got to create these bridges to go in the canopies, then test mountain zoos. It reminds me back in the African penguins where there were several different prototypes of nest boxes, and they deployed them amongst zoos that had African penguins that the penguins kind of show them how is this gonna work? Is this a good idea? And then eventually they got deployed under the beaches in South Africa to help with the loss of the nesting habitat that they're experiencing. So, and that was quite a timeline, of course, a timeline of testing and reconfiguring and narrowing down to what's gonna be best and and then deploying them and getting them out there through the proper networks. Is there any sort of concept of timeline as to when these first will be deployed in zoos to test out versus when we might see them actually going up in the wild? Or is it sort of a we're taking it step by step?

SPEAKER_02 38:11

We are taking it step by step. We have the initial designs and we have zoos on board to build them and test them. So that's coming soon. Um hopefully they will start to go up, you know, maybe by the time this is out or shortly thereafter, at least the first ones. But we genuinely have no idea how the pandas are going to react. There are a few facilities that have like the Philadelphia Zoo has uh their their zoo 360 and their red panda can go between habitats and um uh uh Greensboro Science Center has something similar, but they're not the kind of bridges we could have in the wild. They're very man-made looking. Sure, sure. So we know that the concept is a good one. We know that pandas are open to the idea. Um, but so we'll we'll have to see what these new ones they teach us. And even already, like I was at the the Philadelphia Zoo a couple months ago, just hanging out with the pandas and uh with their keeper Abby, who I've become really good friends with. And uh I mentioned this off the record to her, and she was like, Oh, I have you guys thought about this. And specifically, she was saying that um their bridge is basically uh the width of a panda, give or take. And that sometimes one of the pandas wants to cross and another one's sleeping on there, and it leads to like minor conflict, but that if it was wide enough, the the pandas, just knowing their behavior in their habitat, would walk around it. So she was like, maybe they should be wider than you're thinking. And I was like, Oh, we definitely didn't talk about that in any of the meetings I was in. So you know, it's cool to be able to bring that expertise. And that's one thing that safe programs do. They bring the expertise of people in the zoological field, whether it's actually working in zoos, somebody like me. Um, I even know people from like the SSA group that run a lot of the um gift shops and ticketing and stuff for a lot of different zoos are involved in these programs, but they bring this expertise from all of these XC2 situations and then try to use that to plop it into in situ conservation, which is amazing.

SPEAKER_01 40:08

That's so cool. That's so cool. Man, what a great idea. I love that. I'm so excited to hear about that and can't wait to see how it goes. That, you know, again, because that's the it's those little things that sometimes, oh, we're gonna go in and log an area, there's a road, it's abandoned, the animals will be fine. But it's funny, as soon as you mentioned that the red pandas wouldn't cross that open space, even though there's no traffic. I I immediately jumped back in my memory. I took care of a couple red pandas in the old children's zoo of the San Diego Zoo. This is early 2000s when I first started there. And it was a pretty large habitat, very, very vertical too, though. Uh we had a pond, we had plenty of open space. There was ivy, there's bamboo, there's trees, plenty of climbing structures. And I remember always, and it seemed no matter what, when they were on the ground, they preferred to stay in the covered areas where the ferns were and the plants were growing. There were times where they would have to cross open space because we had to open just because I could walk through there and clean. And inevitably they'd always run through that part, that open space they would run through. And I never even thought, like, oh, it's just like, you know, they they want to hurry up and get to wherever they're going. But but now that you mention that, I'm like, wow, they I wonder if that's a species. Like, I, you know, I only worked with the couple that were there. I wonder if it's across the entire species. That open space is just not safe. And so they prefer not to even pretend that's an option. That's so amazing.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

Yeah, it's super interesting. And it's also interesting because, like, there is obviously we learn a lot about animals being in zoos, and obviously I'm a big proponent of zoos, but also like the different way that animals get handled, even from zoo to zoo, can change things. Like, sure, I know, you know, I know from I mean, Nikki Boyd is the program leader of Safe Red Panda and the one who got me involved, and and she is the curator at the San Diego Zoo and loves Red Pandas. Um, and I know that her approach is very hands-off. She she loves to say we want them to be pandas, you know. And I know that at other really great accredited zoos, they're very hands-on with their pandas and they do meet and greets every day, and they, you know, and so it's funny because you're right. The pandas at San Diego are going to want to avoid those open spaces. Meanwhile, the pandas at Cincy or Columbus are going to wander through them calmly and confidently. Um, and so I I always think it's interesting like what you can learn about wild animals being in human care, but then also where sometimes you kind of have to step back and look at like, oh, what is a natural behavior and what is more of a zoo-born behavior?

SPEAKER_01 42:33

Right, right. Oh, absolutely. You know, you see, yeah, that's one thing too, is like when I was in the zoo world and we had animals for educational programs, I would always see, even though you see us handling them and working with them, you know, this is not a normal behavior, this is not something you would normally see. If you ever see one in the wild, give them their space. This animal is conditioned to work with us and we know its body language to know when it's appropriate to work with it. And you give the whole spiel, but you're absolutely right. What is that normal response or behavior you see when you're trying to do conservation in the wild versus the the way the animal expresses itself at its comfort level in the zoo environment around people it's known its entire life because it was born there. So yeah, it it is interesting. It is so interesting. That is so cool. That is so cool. I really appreciate you sharing all that here on the podcast. I'm excited for that program.

SPEAKER_02 43:20

Me too. I'm excited to have finally shared about it. I'm sure you can tell. I'm like exploding. I've yeah, we came up with this idea as one of the first things we did when like when we started talking about Safe Red Panda. But you have to put together a whole program guide and get it approved and do all these things. Oh, yeah. And we did all of that, and being involved in that was really an honor, but also a pain in the butt. I'll tell you what. Just being real. And um, but it was it was amazing to be a part of it. But that whole time, this was just like simmering on the back burner. And you know, it's like, yeah, we're gonna do this, but now we have to figure out a budget for our first three fiscal years. And I'm like, let's just make the canopy connectors. Uh so to be able to find Finally, be at this phase is incredible.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

I wow. That is that is really my head is just like I'm going a million different directions now. I cannot wait. So, anybody listening, please check out the links down below in the show notes, whether you're seeing this on YouTube or anywhere you're listening to your podcast, I'll make sure those links are in there. But I am not close to wrapping up even. I want to pick your brain now about your podcast. You have been doing this for six years, give or take. You have well over 600 episodes at the time that we're recording this. You have talked to so many interesting people and obviously just know the zoo world inside and out across the globe. Maybe you can't narrow it down, but could you share with us what probably one of your more interesting like by interesting, I mean this. Uh an interview you did that you were like, whoa, I had no idea. Or some fun fact that just kind of rocked your world with all you've done so far with all these interviews. There's got to be something. So I just I'm just curious if there was one particular one or one you could pick out of the many you've done.

SPEAKER_02 44:58

There is one particular one, but it's not fun. Is that okay? Can I be real for a minute? Yeah, absolutely. That's what this is about. Okay, just making sure, because it's it's it's the least fun thing I've ever learned. It's something that I talked about earlier, talking about egos, right? Yeah. So um Panamanian golden frogs are not doing great. And there's there's a bunch of work being done in zoos and in Panama to save them. And early on, I did an interview with the team trying to save them in Panama. And at the time it was a group of three leaders that were doing this thing, and they had a breeding center and they had all this stuff set up, and they were, you know, doing all the things, doing great work. And then there was an argument over how to proceed on certain things. And so one of the partners left and took a lot of the funding and the buildings and half of the frog population with them. Now, this is a population that we need to breed for genetic diversity to save a species. And he took his toys and went home. And his toys can save that species, right?

SPEAKER_03 46:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:12

And so when I was interviewing the people involved with this with Project Golden Frog, they were in a cheap hotel in Panama. They had one room for themselves, one room for their staff, and one room for their entire breeding population of frogs, and they set it up to breed in there. And so, because of human ego, the health of this species was temporarily based in a cheap hotel. And that has stayed with me more, and that was early, and that has stayed with me more than anything else. And anytime I ever see ego start to creep into anything, including myself, uh, because I, you know, I can have one. We all can, we all do. I try to think of that moment and think, wow, this is that's the worst thing I've heard on my podcast. But it stuck with me. And and you know, to be completely fair, I only heard one side of the argument. Like I'm gonna say all of all of the standard caveats, you know. Right, right. But with that said, whatever happened, the population was ripped in half, and the breeding population trying to save the species was stuck in a cheap hotel room. And as somebody who tours, I can tell you, I've been in my fair share of cheap hotel rooms. It sucks. It's not somewhere you want to save a population of frogs. No, it's not somewhere where you want to sleep. So, like, it's it's not ideal. And I think about that all the time because you know the cool thing is they're still doing the work. They have recovered, they are doing the thing, right?

SPEAKER_03 47:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02 47:40

But ego could have destroyed that population. And that sticks with me more than anything else that I've learned in this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 47:49

So on the heels of that then, is there a lesson that we as those who care about, talk about, share stories with, engage with, network with? Is there like sort of this lesson in the background of how can we do better as humans when it comes to work like that?

SPEAKER_02 48:07

I think we need to do better as humans in general. Uh but that's a whole other podcast. Yeah, we can do another episode. But um, no, I think I think we need to always keep the animals at the front. Because, and I, you know, one of the things I find so interesting is part of what I do is I have a large online presence, and I am happy to engage with the anti-zoo crowd as long as they are engaging in good faith, which means rarely, but it does happen sometimes. Um, I've had some great conversations, you know. I've I think I've changed some opinions. I've also not, but had solid conversations in the process. And the thing that I always remember from that is that it all comes from the same place. It all comes from a love of animals and a passion for animals, which is hard because when you when you think about most of the things that we debate and all of the political things and all of the the stuff, right? We're coming from the opposite side most of the time. And when it comes to animals, we're coming from the same side, which is a different kind of argument. But I I think, you know, if we can remember where we're coming from, and remember that, like, if you don't love zoos, then you don't have to say that zookeepers are evil people, because they're not. I can I can very much say that they're not. Um, but they're people who love animals. So approach us, approach me if you want to talk, you know, from an anti-zoo standpoint, as a person who loves animals, and that you understand that and put in 30 seconds and realize that I love, you know, red pandas, and come to me and say, This is why red pandas shouldn't be in zoos. Now, I'm not gonna agree with you. And I have evidence and studies and all kinds of things that we can talk about. But that is so much better than saying, hey, insert swear word here, F you for claiming that you love these animals, but you really hate them because you want them in jail and, you know. And so I really think if we all just come at it from the perspective of we all love animals, whether we are two conservationists who completely disagree on how to do things, or whether we are a passionate zoo defender and a passionate anti-zoo person, if we start off remembering it's about the animals, then you can you can definitely swallow some of that ego, you know. That I hope. I would hope. But clearly sometimes not.

SPEAKER_01 50:28

Well, sure, because the ego is very strong in the human condition in general. I think, you know, it's it's part of uh our conditioning, our survival is that we have we have to be certain of ourselves, you know, and sometimes that gets carried too far, et cetera. But I do want to reflect back on what you just said, uh uh understanding that the the debate is where instead of coming from opposite sides, like sometimes politics, most of the time politics, it is we're coming from the same direction of caring about the animal. And that's one thing that I, when I was an instructor at Moore Park College, I always try to reinforce in the students that when someone challenges you about animal training, about animal care, about conservation in zoos, or that you know, that animal doesn't look happy, or why is it in why is it locked up, or any of that. The first thing out of your mouth should always be, I'm glad to hear you say that, because that share, that tells me you care about animals and I care about them too. So let's have a discussion about that. And what that does for yourself saying that, it helps remember just exactly like you said, we're coming from the same side. We both care. And also shares with them, I'm not gonna fight you. Let's let's find this middle ground and go from there uh and have this discussion. And to your point, not everybody on the other end of that is gonna, you know, are willing to put down their ego and have that discussion. But there are those that that will. And even if you still agree to disagree, there might be more common ground found in in then, you know, than not versus just disregarding them with a curse word.

SPEAKER_02 51:47

Yeah. One thing that I've loved is in the conversations where I know I haven't, you know, uh gotten through completely. No, they're not going to their local zoo after we've talked, but we've had a nice chat. We I usually have managed to educate them about an animal that they love a little bit, even if it's just something dumb, even if it's just about uh how elephant trunks work a little bit, or or you know, that that that tree kangaroos don't have prehensile tails, because a lot of people see those long tails and think they're prehensile or whatever. Yeah. Just dropping in some of those facts just in the conversation, you know, and they're like, well, blah, blah, blah. And they don't even get to use a prehensile tail. I'm like, oh, actually, you know, I hear what you're saying, but also not a prehensile tail, but also let's get back to what you're saying. And it's like, cool, I I succeeded as a conservation educator, even if ultimately, you know, I didn't have uh mind-changing impact. Plus, you know again, going back to never knowing what impact you have, that conversation might not have worked. But then they have two more. And, you know, so they're talking to you or they're talking to Jungle Jordan or somebody, and that's the person who finally gets the click, but I was a part of that. You were a part, you know, whatever. And I think I think that's really cool too.

SPEAKER_01 52:52

Right. Because that positive conversation, you they may walk away not having their mind completely changed or being able to reflect beyond their initial thought, but it could be the planting of that seed. Exactly. It could be the start of that ripple and that another conversation or another thing also, or you they could be thinking about the conversation later and go, well, I got to look into that. You know, yeah, you never know. So it's it's so awesome. Uh, I love that perspective. Uh, you did mention just now, which is a great segue, how I want to wrap this up. You did mention that through these conversations with people who may or may not agree with zoos, that you can also use that opportunity to educate a little bit. When it comes to red pandas or tree kangaroos, give me your favorite fact drop on people that that always gets that sort of like, oh, I didn't know that about either either one or both of those species. Sure.

SPEAKER_02 53:36

Well, the first thing I'll say is tree kangaroos exist. And that's a thing that a lot of people did not know. You know, you talking about the unintended consequences thing of that online quiz. Uh I put out a video of a tree kangaroo named Morobi. Um, he has unfortunately recently passed away, uh, but he was 19 years old, had a great life, lots of offspring. Solid life for Tri Rue. Yeah, real good. And um, he has uh a lot of tree kangaroos get this thing where they get um basically a type of arthritis, I think, in their hands, and uh it will freeze one of their fingers a little bit. And they can still do all the other things and everything, but sometimes it's their middle finger. Yeah. And so it leads to them giving you the finger just constantly, especially when they're eating, because they'll grip with the other ones, and there it is, right? And um, so I put out this video of him eating, and it's literally nothing. There's no education, there's nothing. It is, they make really great crunching noises. And I didn't even realize because I knew Mirobi, I didn't even think about the finger thing. It went super viral. Like 10 million people watched this video because it was a tree kangaroo giving them the finger. And the number one comment by far was, What is this animal? I've never heard about it. So I'm in there educating people that these animals exist to the tune of millions of people learning about this species, because six years ago somebody decided to put out a quiz online, you know? Again, that ripple effect. So crazy, right? I love it. It's so amazing. So yeah, I I love I love teaching that they exist. I I it's funny to say that, but my actual favorite fact about tree kangaroos is the fact that they, especially if you see them wandering through trees when they're not in danger, they look totally derpy. Like they do not look like they should be in trees, but they're actually really good at moving when they have to, and they can jump a full 60 feet down to the ground without taking any damage. 60 feet. That is a huge drop for a tiny little animal. And uh that one, that one always blows my mind with them. And then my new recent uh favorite red panda fact is that their masks are are and their markings are so bright, they're white, that it's it's not, you know, bioluminescence or anything like that. Some I've seen a lot of places online claiming that it is. And it's it's not that. But they are so bright that even in the darkest dark in Nepal and China and Bhutan, uh, their their youth can see it, the the the cubs can see it and will follow them and stay with them in the dark. Wow. And I just I think that's really special and and really cute. Um, and that's like a recently discovered thing, which which I always find interesting as well. And then I have one other thing that I have to ask you before we get. Yeah, please. So you asked me for some some facts. Now we need to talk about binterongs for a second.

SPEAKER_01 56:29

Oh. And and ladies and gentlemen, this podcast episode will be two hours long.

SPEAKER_02 56:34

Well, there's a question that I have to ask you, and I love asking people this. Yes. Because the most famous fact about benturongs is that they smell like buttered popcorn. And I call foul on that. I that that's a party foul. To me, they do not smell like popcorn. I have had bentrons climbing all over me. I have had a ton of amazing experiences with binterongs. And I have only once smelled what I thought was buttered popcorn. The rest of the time, to me, they smell like corn chips. Stale corn chips. I'm gonna be real specific. Okay, so I this is what I wanted to know about. Yes, yes. Okay, perfect. I wanted to know your opinion on that because it's too late to change the narrative. I realize that they are our popcorn buddies. But uh, to me, I've only ever smelled that once. And the rest of the time, it has been warm, stale corn chips.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

So my experience has been this. The very first one I worked with was a male. And when you would walk by his habitat uh on the guest path, every now and then you would get this whiff that'd be like reminiscent of popcorn. And yet, when I would work with him, if he would get on me or his smell would be on me afterwards, it was very much more that that sharper, stale corn chip smell that you mentioned, or um uh corn nuts is another one people that's an old snack from a long time ago. Probably people don't have those anyway. Fritos is another term that people might recognize as a brand that has that same odor. So I don't know if it has to do with the concentration that when you are directly with them, touching them on them, working with them, cleaning their habitat, or they they've been on you or near you in very close proximity, it's definitely more of that corn chip, corn nut, warm, musky type smell versus at a distance wafting through the air, dissipating a little bit, maybe it becomes more popcorn y on the nose. And then I worked with a younger male, and as he was maturing, it was definitely much more of a popcorn type smell. But as he got older, it it definitely went further into that corn chip, stale warm corn chip smell. So maybe they just get stale as they grow up.

unknown 58:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

As they get old, they get stale. I don't know. I don't know. That's funny. That's funny.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Um, but yeah, the the buttered popcorn theme seems to have been the one that has stuck over all. And again, I do wonder if that might be because from the public side, when you're a little more of a distance, that's what your brain is is trying to pick up on. And the influence, too. So here's the other part of too. You're at the zoo, you're with kids, you've had popcorn, you've eaten popcorn, there's a popcorn stand down the way. Your brain is trying to interpret what I am smelling. And so we I know this from studying human behavior and psychology. Our brain tries to make sense of our environment, what we're seeing or hearing, what we're smelling. And so that's why we sometimes are mistaken about what we hear, see, or smell is because our brain is trying to help us make sense of the unknown. So I wonder too, if then as people are walking through the zoo, they oh, I smell popcorn because that's what they're associating, even on a subconscious level. Right, right. So maybe that might be how it how it all stuck there. I don't know. But nonetheless, I will tell you this. To this day, if I smell that smell, my heart, like you said, it just like swells three times right away. I just associate that so much with those crazy bear cats, those bintrongs. I just love them so much. And it's just so funny how the brain does that, where it could be, you know, nowhere near the zoo, nowhere near a bent rong, and some waft to something that is similar.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

I'm like, oh, my baby's.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:04

I don't know why this has happened, but I have a chihuahua and I am a I am a small dog person. We have three dogs, but the chihuahua is mine. His name is Buzz. And he is a rescue, he's like uh a mutt Chihuahua, but I love him. But whenever he curls up, and it's only when he curls up in a tight ball, which they do a lot, and he he, you know, simmers for a while. Uh he sits there and he gets very warm as they do. But if you pick him up, his chest smells exactly like a binterong. And I've never experienced that with another dog. I've had other chihuahuas and stuff, and I I don't know why, but I will pick him up and bury my nose in his chest. And he's like, Dad, what are you doing? And I'm like, you smell like a binterong.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

So the science behind that has to do with body temperature and bacteria. And the the off-gassing of a bacteria hitting a certain temperature is what causes that smell. And so for the longest time, when I first started working, it was cited everywhere that this is a bintrong musk gland, and this is how this is how they naturally smell. And more recent study, and I can't remember which college it was at. I have this information written down because I always reference it, but um, my brain's horrible. There is a chemical compound that is released when popcorn is heated to a certain temperature that gives it that smell. And it's AC1, AC. I'll have to look it up. I'll put it in the show notes. Sure. Either way, the recent studies then on the bintrongs have found that it is the acids in the urine and the bacteria on the skin and fur combining, creating instead of a heat temperature, creating a chemical release of the same smell or the same uh atoms, basically, that is in popcorn when it releases. So it's very interesting that yeah, there are there are times where I have smelled it uh on dogs as well, um, and but not as strong, not as powerful as the Benton. No, yeah. But there is a natural occurring smell that occurs when I guess a certain bacteria breaks down. Or I, you know, I don't remember the exact science. I have a post on my Instagram about it from eons ago when I first discovered this study, and I think I have a bookmark on my computer somewhere. But it's fascinating. It's fascinating stuff. And I I'm addicted to the smell. It's bacteria or not, I still love it.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

Yep, me too. Can I tell you one other funny venture venturong story? Since I think you'll do appreciate it. I know we're we're running over a little, but uh so this, I just think you'll appreciate this story. So I get the opportunity to audition for a tour that was called the Ultimate Johnny Cash tour. Okay. And I'm uh I'm a big fan of Johnny Cash that's right in my wheelhouse. And the idea was that it was the actual Cash family putting on this tour, and they got the um audio and video of Johnny Cash performing on his television show. And with modern technology, we're able to isolate his guitar and vocals. Boom. And the idea was that you would tour with a live band and play with Johnny. And um, cool idea. Uh, ended up not being something I really wanted to do when I found out all the details, but like I was pretty stoked. And so I got invited to Nashville to audition for this. And I made it all the way through to the final round where I was going to go and play for Johnny Cash's son and some other people involved in that world, right? And I was like, this is amazing. This is really cool. And um, my buddy Steve was also a finalist for one of the guitar tracks. And so I wake up the morning of my final audition for this. This really big thing. At the time, I thought I really wanted to do this. And I was a little nervous and stuff. So I went to the Nashville Zoo, um, because of course I did. And uh I reached out to the ambassador team and uh asked if I could come hang out for a little bit. And so I did. And Willow the Benterong crossed. Love Willow. I met Willow too. Yep, she's the best. And uh Willow, as many benterongs do, but she seems really into it. Um, she likes to style your hair. And she does so with uh with some some spit and snot and and you know, she gets in there. She gets in there. And so I'm there and I stay at the zoo until the last possible minute. And then I head off to the studio where I'm doing this audition, and I walk in and I walk up to my buddy Steve, and I'm like, hey buddy, congrats on making to the finals. And he kind of gives me this weird look and he goes, Hey, you too. Are you gonna duck into the bathroom for a second? And I'm like, No, I don't have to PY. And he's like, I thought you might wanna. Your hair is just a little like it's not terrible, but it's like a little off. There's something going on. And I was like, Yeah, I was like, okay. So I duck into the bathroom and I I'm like, Yep, I oh, I smell, I smell like Fritos. Okay. I have, I have, I just I'm gonna smell like a bentrong. Like, I'm not going into the car and changing at this point. I'm like, okay. And I look at my hair, and it's not terrible, but it's back then I had shorter hair. But there was definitely a a part that was binterongi. And I thought to myself, what do I want to do? Look my best or walk into this audition knowing that my hair was styled by a binterong. Right? Who else could say that? Right. I know. This is an experience that no one else in the world will ever have. And so I left everything as it was and I walked into that audition as happy as I could be, knowing that whatever happened, at least I was playing in front of Johnny Cash's son while having my hair styled by a benturong.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:24

Binterong slobbering your hair.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:25

Yep. No one else in the entire world will ever be able to tell that story. So yeah, I thought you'd appreciate that one.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

I do. Absolutely. Yeah. I can't I can't I can't tell you how many times I've had a wide variety of different slobber smells and stains on me while doing something by or near famous people. That's awesome. That is awesome. John, I have to wrap it up because we're hitting an hour, but I I think we're probably going to have to maybe touch base with you near the end of the year, see how things are going with all the safe programs, catch up with what else you're doing. And uh before we do wrap up, so we kind of mentioned it in the middle of the episode, but roll down a Again, how can people find you if they want to either get involved with what you're doing or catch your podcast or find you on social media?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:06

Sure. So uh rasafari.com at rasafari on TikTok, it's at rasafaripod. And then yeah, check out the safe uh programs. They're they're all over the place. The ones I'm involved with are at safe red panda and at Tree Kangaroo Safe, but there are over 50 now and they're awesome. And um I partner with a lot of other conservation orcs. So if you just come check me out, you'll find other really great places to to go and give your money and time and effort. So yeah, yeah, come join the party.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:32

Awesome. Love it, love it. John, thank you so much. I I greatly appreciate you spending time here with me today. And uh yeah, I'll probably be reaching out and having you on again. Sounds good, buddy. All right, take care. And of course, thank you, dear listeners. I appreciate you being here with me on this curious Odyssey we call animals nature and you. And uh, you know, if I gotta say, if there's anything that we talked about, John and I talked about today, and you want to connect with them, all of his information will be down below. But I I do want to make sure, I mean, for me, just reflecting back on his story. He he was always about music, loved music, passionate, still is doing so much as a musician, a music director, an actor, but he always had this love for zoos and aquariums, and that thread has always been a part of his life. And now today he's having such an impact with his podcast, which I highly recommend you subscribe to or follow, but also too then with just the work he's doing on the safe program for red pandas and for tree kangaroos. It's really just goes to show you, like I mentioned in my interview with him. Well, I was being interviewed by him, I should say, on his podcast, where the the acronym for Animals, Nature, and You is any. Anyone can do conservation anytime, anywhere. You don't have to be a zoologist or a biologist. I mean, sure you can be, by all means. I'm not gonna stop you, but his story is a great example of what you can do with the talent you have, the ability you have, the curiosity and passion you have, and how that can make a difference. So, what a great story. What a great story. I really just appreciate John so much. And like I said, all of his information will be in the show notes down below. You can find his social media, the websites we talked about, things like that. Of course, if you want to get a hold of me, my social media handles are down there as well, along with zoologybrick.com being my website. I do want to remind you if you haven't already, please hit subscribe or follow on your podcast player or subscribe on YouTube so you don't miss any of the upcoming episodes. We have 10-minute Tuesdays, every Tuesday, a shorter episode. I try to keep it at 10 minutes, but I have failed miserably the last couple of times. Talk about something that might be regarding something that came up in the last episode or something that's that's currently topical in the world about animals or nature or conservation, whatever it might be. And then, of course, too, every Thursday, we have interviews like we had today with John. And I've got about two months of interviews already scheduled out from here. And there's just so many great people. I can't wait for you to hear these conversations. I can't wait to have these conversations. Last but not least, if you want to engage with Animals Nature and You on Instagram, that is the only social media right now for this podcast, Animals Nature New. That link is also down below. So with that, I'm going to wrap this up. Thank you all so much for being a part of this Curious Odyssey. Have a good one, everybody.