Nature Walks and Mentorships - Making a Difference with Jungle Jordan

In this episode, Jungle Jordan shares stories of combining his love for wildlife with community work through outdoor education. Discover his program impacts underserved communities and inspires the next generation of conservationists, nature lovers and so much more.

Rick and Jordan wrap up the conversation addressing the age old question, which is better, small zoo or big zoo? The discussion covers the experiences you might have as a zookeeper in one of these zoos, and the guest experience as well.

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Find Jordan and Information on Nature Walks and Virtual Mentorship Program here: 

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Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop

Artist: Burgberg

Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

So the program is just nature walks with Jungle Jordan. Just last week, we went to one of my favorite areas, actually, is the Union Bay Natural Area. It's over by University of Washington. And we saw otters. Okay. Nice. So now this is, you know, I'm gonna go into it kind of deep here already. But go for it, dude. So I'm gonna just jump in because I have never fully seen the body of an otter in my state in the wild ever in my life. I've worked with otters, but I've never seen one in the wild. And this was my first time. And we s and the kids spotted it from afar. And I was like, you guys, this was a first for me. So I'm all excited. I could smell it. I couldn't find the poop, but I was always looking for it.

SPEAKER_03 0:47

I'm Rick Schwartz, educator, public speaker, and all-around curious guy. Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I have worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature, and You, a podcast that explores a connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome to another episode of Animals, Nature, and You. Today's guest is a guest that I'm not really going to jump into reading a whole bio on because, well, if you want that, go back to episode one. Jordan, a good friend of mine, was nice enough to be and agree to be my first guest on this podcast. And we covered all sorts of great stuff, how animals impacted his life and now how he is impacting the work around conservation and zoos. He also does an immense amount of work supporting kids and getting kids involved, getting out in nature, getting outside, and also tearing down some barriers that someone might think are there that it would be otherwise in the way of access of getting involved with conservation, animal care, or zookeeping. So without any further ado, again, if you want to learn more about Jordan's personal story, head over to episode one if you haven't watched it or listened to it already. But for now, Jordan and I are going to talk a little more about what he's doing right now. So, Jordan, uh, as always, you know I love you, man. Thank you so much for being a repeat guest, the first repeat guest and the first guest. Wow, you got you have two first titles. I'm just getting all the first. I appreciate it, man. I appreciate it. Thanks for being here.

SPEAKER_04 2:25

Thanks for having me, Rick. Um it's always a pleasure to to hang out with you and to chat, you know, for even one hour at a time. It's it's it's something.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

Well, if nothing else, I had to create a podcast so we could both sit down and talk every now and then. Otherwise, yes, we're both so busy. We never get a chance.

SPEAKER_04 2:42

This is the only way we could chat.

SPEAKER_03 2:45

Oh. Well, like I said in the in the intro, you you do so much. We covered an awful lot in that first episode, but uh specifically today, and it's interesting because just the episode before this one, I talked to somebody who's the founder and director of a nature school. So her her whole thing that she does, it's the Red Oaks Nature School in Kentucky. It is a program that that educates kids outside, not just about the outside, but let's take school and bring it outside. Rain or shine, snow or not, any of that stuff. The kids are out there spending most of the learning day outside. It's a great program. And it did make me think of you a little bit because you had mentioned with the challenges you had growing up that animals really saved you. That was sort of the overarching theme we we came up with from episode one. And so I wanted to touch on what you're doing. You have a program in your area in Washington where you're doing what with kids outside?

SPEAKER_04 3:47

So the program is just Nature Walks with Jungle Jordan. Um, they are free outdoor guided tours and different parks and and locations around uh you know Greater Seattle, but also just around Washington in general, um, and more most of the metropolitan areas, but it's meant for you know underprivileged families to have their kids come and explore uh in nature and just you know be welcome and realize they have a space in the wild, I guess. Um, you know, and this is a it's a free free event. I just take the kids out and we go to different locations around this different cities in Washington and see stuff, you know. Just last week, we went to uh one of my favorite areas actually is the Union Bay Natural Area. It's over by University of Washington, and we saw a beaver, we saw otters. Okay, nice. So now this is you know, I'm gonna go into it kind of deep here already. But go for it, dude. So I'm gonna just jump in because I have never fully seen the body of an otter in my state in the wild ever in my life. I've worked with otters, but I've never seen one in the wild. And this was my first time, and we s and the kids spotted it from afar, and I was like, you guys, this was a first for me. So I'm all excited. Yeah, they were they were kind of off in the distance playing in the we were in this wetlands area, and you could see in the lake, like there's a spot right on the edge where you could tell it's probably where they were hanging out. I could smell it. I couldn't find the poop, but I was always looking for it. Um, and then we saw us we saw snakes. I found some baby garter snakes. Oh wow, itty bitty little things. And um, because I used to be part of a project out there at UW when I was a student there, that would go out into this natural area, which used to be a landfill, converted to like a natural area, so beat to be basically left alone. And we did all kinds of work out there as in studies. One of them was like a uh a snake count study, so we would put these boards down for the snakes to come and hide under and hang out. Well, they had there was boards were out there. I may be broken the law here, uh, because these are for UDF students only, but I was a former student, so it was alright. I did go over there and flip some of the boards for the kids because they wanted to see, and we did find two baby little infant uh garter snakes. Nice. And this was their first time seeing a snake, and you know, I held it, I was the only one to hold it, and I did let them touch, and they were like, I was like, hey, what's it feel like? And they said it was just soft and and smooth and not at all slimy like people think they are. Anyways, I'm going on a rant. It was just so much fun for me, you know.

SPEAKER_03 6:48

No, it's great. I love that. That's exactly why this is so important. Imagine if you just like, yeah, you know what, I'm gonna stay home today. Right. Right. So for you to go out and do this is very exciting for you. But now, just even you sharing the story, your energy came up immediately. You got excited. The kids that are in your space while you are experiencing this aren't just out learning with Jordan, but they're gonna they're gonna get that. They're gonna catch your enthusiasm and excitement and see that look, here I can I can be in nature and see this and realize, hey, it's not slimy, it's soft, it's smooth, it's cool. This is exciting. So much fun. So much fun. That's pretty awesome, dude. That's pretty awesome. I just for the audience, anybody listening who doesn't quite understand what you were describing, what what do you mean by having a board out in the wild to try and find snakes? So you will leave a board out there and somehow be able to find snakes because of this?

SPEAKER_04 7:43

Yeah, so a lot of times uh snakes will seek to find shelter and areas to warm up. So with these bo boards that are kind of like out and exposed in the in like the you know open grassland, they often will heat up and create these little hot spots underneath. And so it's a safe way that the snakes can bask in sun in the open. So they're not fully exposed by the sun, but they're using that that heat from the boards to warm their bodies up for the day, especially if you're a smaller snake.

SPEAKER_03 8:15

Right. And it's a safe place to hide under as well. So it's uh another attractant for them is that it's sort of that easy access hiding spot that they can come and go from. So yeah, very cool.

SPEAKER_04 8:24

Plus, with that, too, you know, especially with the small snakes, the baby size, you know, what are they eating? Right? They're eating small things, right? And there's a lot of worms and beetles and different bugs and things that some these snakes will sometimes eat because they're they're too small to really catch anything else. Yeah. So yeah, no, it's just it's just a fun experience.

SPEAKER_03 8:45

Yeah, no, it's great. I was gonna say it's you know, those those that food source that those baby snakes rely on will also be attracted to go under those boards. So it's yep, it's a great little habitat for those baby snakes, and so cool, you got to show the kids all that. That's awesome. Oh, they loved it.

SPEAKER_04 8:56

They loved it. They were like, 'cause I I so the first one I found alone, because I was again, I was kind of you know, not supposed to be over there, but you know, I did it. Uh and there was even actually, I want to I'm gonna cut myself off for a second because there were college students out there that were doing birding. And then they're over trying to identify a bird. And you know, I walk over, excuse me, I'm a former student. I uh I know that that what that is. It's called a brown creeper. Uh, you know, so anyway.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Pulling a rank on these kids. Well, yeah, a little bit.

SPEAKER_04 9:36

You know, it was I was being funny. I was I was having fun with them, and you know, it's just it was a good experience. Um, but yeah, so like they were like, oh wow. And I was wearing a jungle Jordan shirt, and you know, they started looking, they looked that up and they're like, wait, so are you you do this stuff? Like, do you do this for kids? And I was like, Yeah, I used to be a student just like you guys, and I was there, I did the work you're doing. Um, I tried to we had to identify birds by their calls. That was a hard test. Oh boy, yeah. Oh man, that was that was fun though. Um, that was when I in college, that was my my heyday. That was the stuff I enjoyed. Um, but anyway, so the second time I went to go find another snake because they're like, okay, Jordan, we're not done. We want to find more. I was like, you know what? You guys want to come over here and try to identify a snake when I lift this board up? And we did a couple, we did a couple. Uh I lifted the second one. Uh, this little girl, Edith, she found one so fast. Oh, right on. She's like, there it is. I was like, and it was the tiniest little thing, they blend in so well with the dirt and the ground. I was very impressed. Because you know, she's what an eight-year-old, eight-year-old girl. Just these kids, you can tell how fascinated they are with this stuff, and they feel like they belong. Right. When they probably don't usually feel like they fit in in school because they like animals, and they're like, Oh, well, am I allowed to like animals the way that I do? Because a lot of kids grow up liking animals, but over time, I feel like that love somewhat gets taken away from them because the realities of life start to set in. They're like, oh, wait, I have to be a breadwinner, I have to make money. I gotta, I can't have fun at work, you know, work is work.

SPEAKER_03 11:27

Yeah, and I could say as a parent that you know, my daughter pretty much grew up going to the San Diego Zoo and Safari Park all the time, and any other animal place we can go to when we're traveling. And she still to this day, as she's middle school now, knows a lot and loves, and and she has no choice because I talk about all the time different animals and everything else. But I can say, as a parent, her passion and excitement for wildlife and animals, nature and being outside, spotting a hawk, spotting a crow versus a raven, any of that stuff, is only in place because she's been saturated in it at home. There's no support at school for staying connected to the natural world. Uh and to your point, it's I don't think it's a conscious, purposeful thing. It's just that so much is put on them for the standard curriculum in a school, right? That even when they do finally get to a biology class in middle school or high school, it is just the fundamentals. And there's nothing wrong with that. You've got to have the fundamentals. But it would be so cool if there was an opportunity in the lower grades for kids to have more exposure to what you're offering up when it comes to whether it's being outside or just identifying and looking at the diversity of different species in your own native area. Uh, that would be so cool because I I think a lot of kids, you know, you and I both grew up with this fascination that we just never got, you never got fully knocked out of us. Right. So I think you're right, in the sense that you've got these kids out there on your nature walks now that that finally feel like, ah, this is this is my people, this is my space.

SPEAKER_04 13:01

They yes, they feel like, wow, all these other kids, like, like, because they're all the same. They're all so intelligent, and they realize, okay, because at first you're like, okay, how how am I gonna get along with this with this other kid? Like, are they gonna judge me for knowing these questions, knowing these answers about animals? Are they going to stop me from enjoying this and and what I want to actually enjoy? And when they when they start to hear each other, when I ask them questions, when I engage with them, they're like, oh wait, okay, this is a safe space, right? I can be as weird as I want, and I love it.

SPEAKER_03 13:43

Yeah. What was the the idea for this for you? Because it's it's clearly it's a process. This is something where you're setting aside personal time. This is a free program you're offering. So you're this is your own personal volunteer time. I know just from knowing you, this is a part of just who you are, but what was the initial thought, like, hey, I should do this, to the point of then actually starting this program?

SPEAKER_04 14:10

Well, I felt like I've always wanted to make a difference and make a change in the world. Um, that sounds very cliche, but I feel like I've always wanted to make a difference. And I felt like I've always felt like I I have not been doing enough. And unfortunately, that's a that's a big curse of mine, is no matter what I do, I have to I have to do I have to do more. Like I'm not doing enough. And that's a that's something I have learned in therapy to to try to you know wrangle in and and you know uh appreciate my wins and have my fun time, which you know, I don't know if you got this on recording, but which is why after this interview I'm gonna go snowboarding. That's that's me time, right? That's just me. And the sad part about that is I'll probably still content create. I'm still gonna go out there and make a video about snowboarding. That's the problem with me, anyways. Um but no, I I think I've always wanted to make a difference and give back, and I've noticed that when when kids see someone that looks like them doing these things, they they feel safe. And I felt like I wanted to create more of a sense of community. This is always something that I've had in the back of my mind of wanting to do, but I've had so many things in the back of my mind of wanting to do, and I needed help to kind of wrangle those thoughts in. Believe it or not, my actually, you know, I'm gonna attribute my my girlfriend to this because she is the one that said, okay, let's organize these thoughts and let's just do it. And boom, here we are. Here we are, here we are, and I'm out doing nature walks, and she's actually been a great help out there. And like it's also cool for some kids, I think, to see the dynamic of her because she I'm gonna throw her under the bus here. She is not, she is not a nature person, okay? She she she's appreciative of nature, she's appreciative of animals, but she is not me, and that's okay. We're all individuals, right? Right. But when the kids see that even someone who this is not quote unquote for is out there enjoying themselves, introducing themselves to the kids, having fun with the families, talking, you know, filming everything, you know, interacting, providing snacks, all these different things, right? You know, like they see it's a it's such a fun dynamic, but that just the whole goal was to just create a community. Because I felt like I wasn't enough of a community member, and I have a lot to give. And so this is what I this is where it all came from. How long have you been doing these nature walks? I my first one was February 8th this year. Uh, and it's I've I've done them almost every Sunday so far, weather permitting. Um, but I have taken some Sundays off because you know, gotta have a break. And I think I just I just wanted to start off, I wanted to hit the ground running. Uh my next one is hopefully going to be April 12th, which is is that April 12th? It's the Sunday. Yeah, April twelve. April twelfth. Um my goal is to actually do it at one of the local zoos. Ooh. So and I'm I'm I'm in I'm currently in conversation with them to see if we can if they can help us out because again, this is a free program. So I'm trying to make it easier on the you know underprivileged families. So we'll see how it goes. I'm also I also uh asked for donations to, you know, for like um, you know, for kids snacks and treats and different things like that. Um I'm I'm starting to create this little fund for for this nature walk situation.

SPEAKER_03 18:05

With that being said, if someone listening right now is like, I want to support this, or I want to sign my kid up for. Obviously, you are in the Seattle area, is where you're based. So you're doing things mostly in that area for these nature walks. So keep that in mind. If you're like, I want my kid to do this. How can people find out more about this, either sign up for it, or maybe they have a relative they think this would be good for, or maybe even they want to contribute something to help support it? Where where should we drive them to?

SPEAKER_04 18:33

So they can go to my website. I I I do have a link that is populating um for my nature walks. Uh, it's not you can contact me on there as well. Like you just go to contact and email. Um, there's there will be a nature walk link soon on there because I I hadn't fully opened it up all the way to like me, the the public. I was doing it more for um people that I knew from Facebook or a little bit on Instagram. Like I was putting a call out there for locals, but I do want to open it up a bit broader or a bit wider. As far as the donations, uh, I don't currently have uh the best way set up. It's just like it's just like a Venmo account right now. I'm trying to find a more, I guess, uh professional way to set it up.

SPEAKER_03 19:29

Well, I'll tell you what, what what I'll do is I think we'll just tell people go to your website and if they want to support it somehow or sign somebody up for it, the just to contact you through your website, and we'll have that link in the in the show notes for you.

SPEAKER_04 19:40

Yes, thank you. Thank you. There will be something up there soon. Uh I might, yeah, you'll you'll they'll see it. They'll see it's awesome, awesome.

SPEAKER_03 19:47

And of course, find you on social media too. We'll have all those links down below too, because even if they're not interested in this program, you put out awesome content all the time.

SPEAKER_04 19:55

So um, I do actually put the like when I'm going on a nature walk, I do put it on social media. It's like, hey, just by the way, for any last minute people, I'm going here. If you want to come DM me and then I send them the information.

SPEAKER_03 20:09

Nice, nice. So then the other part of what you're doing a lot of also, aside from the actual, let's get out in nature, let's get these kids amongst their own community of getting excited for this, understanding and seeing what you're doing so they know that this is a possibility for them, something in in nature, animal care, conservation, ecology, whatever it may be. You also do something that is basically an online sort of mentorship. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_04 20:39

Yes, I do a virtual mentorship program. Um, and this is based around just animal topics, getting kids excited about nature, and it's just a way that kids can learn about wildlife without it being, you know, boring. Like I'm not just it's a very engaging program. It's back and forth, it's it's virtual, but it's fun. It's not just like a a school class that you know kids will find tiring. You know, it's it's it's a very fun program.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Did you give me like an example of some of the stuff that is just you're you're covering some animal facts, or do you go into like other details about the species?

SPEAKER_04 21:22

So it's called the Wild World Academy, and I have different topics uh based around you know environmental, you know, issues and different topics. Like, okay, for the first uh the first lesson plan, it's called Diving in Animals, right? And so basically, you know what we've what I've learned in my days, a lot of people don't actually know what an animal is. And so that's the very first topic. What is an animal? And then I break down mammals, birds, and reptiles, and then you know, like down the road into different lessons, I go into like things like life cycles. And we talk about how animals, different animals have specific life cycles, like um salmon, right? Everyone loves to talk about salmon and how they travel from a little small fry all the way up to an adult, right? Or an amphibian. They start out as little eggs and then they hatch and they they live underwater for the most of their life, right? And they have gills, and then some of them will lose those gills and become on land. So, you know, um, then it gets into more in-depth, um, gets into a little bit more uh diverse topics like biodiversity or um ecosystems, animal adaptations, um, keystone species, different animal topics, um, and the very end, the last lesson plan, which I'm trying to figure out if I want to just have people, if they want specific topics, I can kind of curate that, which I do have that option on the website, but I like to go through all so they can kind of so they don't lose anything, right? But the last lesson plan is lesson five, is what is a zookeeper? And that's when I go into topics or uh like what want to be a zookeeper. So what makes a zookeeper? Talk about animal behavior and human care, exhibit design, and conservation in zoos, right? And education. Yeah. So that's like a it's a big part of me because that's obviously my background a lot, is is from zookeeping.

SPEAKER_03 23:25

So what's the age range you would be like someone's like, oh, this sounds like it'd be good for my kid, but they're four years old or they're 14. What where's your sweet spot of people you mentor in this virtual program?

SPEAKER_04 23:39

Typically, uh the age range I kind of go for is about seven to eleven.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

And I have kind of two different courses, one for the younger and then one for the older. Um, but I've had kids that wanted to sign up at about five years old. And I, you know, I did interview those kids and um, you know, in person, actually, I saw them in in uh at my zoo. They asked about it. Um, and they're like, hey, yeah, he knows his stuff. And so I meet the kid in person and I'm talking to him, I'm asking the questions. I'm like, wow. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

So we'll sign you up for the 11-year-old program. Well, honestly, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:18

So I met those kids. I've met kids like that where they're like, you know, first grader, but they're talking at a high school level when it comes to animals. Like, dang. Like, how do you know all this stuff?

SPEAKER_04 24:28

Like, where, yeah, where are you getting which a lot of them get it from wildcrats at this at this stage? They're getting it from wild, the show Wildcratz, which is an awesome show. I agreed. Um, those guys are awesome. So, yeah, these kids are just amazing. Excellent. Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 24:42

Well, I think as we're we're getting closer to wrapping this up, uh, and when I say that, it means we're now moving to another topic. We'll probably talk for another half an hour. Yes, knowing you and I. But uh, you had brought up at the end of your virtual program, you talk about zookeeping, and you and I both have worked in the zookeeping world. We have both traveled to other zoos, not just our home zoos. You've worked in multiple zoos as well. We have seen big zoos and small zoos. And for a zookeeper or for a guest, what's a better experience? Small zoo or big zoo? And I have my experiences and my opinions on this. And I thought it'd be great to ask you that as well, knowing my audience is very diverse as far as some love going to zoos, some work at zoos, some prefer to just be outside. But it's a question that I used to get quite a bit when I was at the San Diego Zoo from people in the zoo keeping world. Like, oh, what's it like to work at the San Diego? You know, they they big pie in the sky, big giant organization, very financially solvent and doing work around the world. And they're in a smaller zoo, thinking that's the best thing to go to. And it's always a discussion around that. So I would love your input and your thoughts when it comes to either visiting or working at or both, uh, big zoo, smaller zoo, which is better. And if uh and if you have an opinion which one's better or not, why?

SPEAKER_04 26:05

Okay. Now, this is a very tough question for me because my heart gets pulled in multiple different directions. Because I've worked at both big zoos and I've worked at small zoos. Now, I'm gonna take the best PR answer as possible.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Uh because you're currently working at a zoo. Right. No, uh me, I'm a new war, so no, you know, right.

SPEAKER_04 26:29

No, the no, they they definitely have their place. Um, both of them do. I would say there's a little bit of nuance to it, but what I have learned just off of being at a small zoo right now, but I've worked at other small facilities compared to big ones, and what I've learned when I was a zoo keeper mainly was that at small facilities, I had more responsibilities. I learned so much more for myself as a keeper. I was a younger keeper working at a small facility, and there are things that we had to figure out, we had to learn on the fly. Whereas some somebody would have just at a bigger facility, someone would just take care of it for us, and we wouldn't gain right, but we wouldn't gain that information and that skill set, you know, until someone yelled at us later at a bigger facility. I'm just I'm just being just saying, just saying I'm just saying that's what happens sometimes, most times, all the time, anyways. Uh but right, like I I develop like I developed maintenance skills, and I didn't know how to use a wrench. I mean, well, let's let's let's let's be honest. Like, I yes, I can use a wrench, but like there are certain things that I learned, like how to do a backflush of a pump system. Like, someone explain what that means, right? Like I had to learn that working with uh otters and beavers, just the only two animals that had this pod usage. I had to learn how to do this system and how to reset it if it was malfunctioning, right? I learned that because I was at a smaller facility where there was not much maintenance help around at the time, right? Right. I had to learn how to do that stuff on a daily basis, which I'm sure you can learn at a big zoo too, but you don't gain all the skills you need.

SPEAKER_03 28:29

Well, often at a big zoo, they have water quality teams that their whole job is going around maintaining ponds and pumps, and you're like, you just call them and say, Hey, I don't think it's working.

SPEAKER_04 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 28:37

They show up and take care of it. You know, you don't ever learn that.

SPEAKER_04 28:40

Right. Exactly. Right. You don't learn things that you could have learned at a smaller facility. At a big at a big facility, there like there are positives, like there are a wider variety of species, more animals. But but most of the time, right, at these big facilities, how many species would you work with in a day? Right? Like you some facilities, you only have four animals to work with. Four animals. Not species, four individuals, right? Like, okay, I'm not gonna call them out, so I'm not gonna say any names, but you know, there was a facility that I worked at, right? I again this was a great experience, so I'm not knocking anybody, but there were teams that were split into subgroups, and one part of the team did giraffes, let's just say. Okay, and how many giraffes were there? Three. Three giraffes. That's pretty much for the most part, the bulk of your day was working with these three giraffes, and there wasn't much else. You know? Yeah, she like there was things to do, obviously. But you didn't get to see as many animals as you would at a smaller facility. But at a big facility, that did give you more time to dedicate to those three animals. Sure, sure. Right?

SPEAKER_03 30:09

And you deeper dive into a specific species, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:12

Exactly. You get you get more, uh, what's the term? Uh people always ask me in zoos, are you so do you specialize in a certain animal? Yeah, what animal do you take care of?

SPEAKER_03 30:24

Animal. Right.

SPEAKER_04 30:26

What animal, one singular animal do you take care of? I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I do everything, right? Right. And me, well, more, I was always more of a generalist. I um yes, I was more mammal driven, but you know, I had my dabble in reptiles, I had my dabble in birds. I would not be a birdkeeper. That is not my thing. Uh I helped a little with a few birds. I do like birds, but I'm just too tall. I hit too many perches. Hit my head too many.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

I didn't think it would go that direction, but I totally get it. I've hit my head plenty of times. I hit my head once.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

Yes, I I've I'm pretty sure I've sustained multiple concussions. Oh boy. I couldn't tell. I I don't know. Actually, I don't have any recollection of them. Anyways, there's that's a joke in there somewhere. Uh but no. Um now, okay, again, there's there's so many nuances to this. The smaller facilities, you are involved in more of the conversations about the facility. And it's it seems to be more team driven, like there's more help given, like you will end up helping out in different areas. You know, you need to you you pick up Slack in different areas. But what what are your thoughts? Yeah, go ahead. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 31:45

Well, I was gonna I was gonna ask for now more from a perspective of a guest experience, because you have traveled around and been to a lot of different zoos, and albeit you're not visiting them as a guest, but you have a broad knowledge of what the guest experience is probably going to be like going to a small zoo versus a big zoo. So for those in the audience that aren't zoo workers, but zoo visitors, what's your thoughts on big zoo versus small zoo? That's another okay, that's a good one.

SPEAKER_04 32:09

The good from the guest perspective, people just are going to assume that a small zoo is going to be a bad zoo. They just assume that from the beginning. They assume it's going to be quote unquote roadside facility, right? Which that is not the case. Yes, it's it's kind of hard to tell from the very outside perspective from the very beginning if it's going to be a quote unquote roadside zoo or not, right? But the one of the bases, right, is to look to see if it's in a credit facility. Um that's that's just a good uh standpoint for the for for the most part. Um but from outside perspective, I have gained a lot of happiness from small facilities. Like just as a guest going there, the teams seem so much happier. Yes, every facility deals with issues internally, right? But these small facilities, a lot of times, they're just walking around so happy. Like I'm gonna shout out a facility just just because of how happy they were. This they're a ZAA, uh small, small facility. Who knows if I would have ever gone to, but the uh Animal World and Snake Farm Zoo, okay, they they are they just that team was so they were just so happy to to exist and to talk to guests, like a big part of their job was guest engagement and education. They were so just like in your face, ready to talk to you. And these are staff, right? Not volunteers and interns, where at big facilities, how easy is it for you to see a zookeeper walking around and be able to talk to them? Right. Impossible almost. Yeah right? But these small facilities like you have there's they almost have no choice to talk to you because you they gotta walk from one thing to the next, and you have to cross you. So, but no, that was a that was an awesome facility I went to. And you know, on the outside looking in, I probably wouldn't have gone, be honest. Like I, you know, no offense to that facility. I saw from the look, I probably wouldn't have gone from the outside. But going in there and chatting with the keepers, seeing the animals, right? The animals all are experiencing the same level of care at a small zoo as they are at a larger facility. So, you know, like and a lot of these small facilities have this like um homey feel, like this like close-knit family feel. Yeah, it's a little more intimate. Intimate. There you go. Words are hard sometimes for me. Intimate. Hey, for me. Sometimes for me too. It's a great word. Yeah, it's right. It's more intimate of an experience. And yeah, I you don't get that sometimes. And and okay. And now we go into the conversation about uh exhibit size, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:59

Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 35:01

These smaller facilities a lot of times have the same exhibit size, quote unquote exhibit size, as these bigger facilities. But because we're in a smaller frame, it's hard to tell. Yeah, anyways, I I can go on a rant for hours about this. You know, uh, I don't even know where my train of thought is right now.

SPEAKER_03 35:21

What are we talking about? What's the name of the snowboarding, I think, right?

SPEAKER_04 35:25

Oh, no, no, no, not that, not that yet. No, I'm still I'm still in this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 35:28

All right, all right, fair enough. Well, and and you know, to to to answer what you had asked me before I asked about the guest experience side of it, my personal opinion, my personal experience when it comes to big zoo, small zoo is very much in in tandem with what you said. In that from a zoo worker standpoint, a zookeeper standpoint, you have usually more responsibilities to your space in a smaller zoo. You are the horticulturist, you are the maintenance person, you are the animal care person, you are the vet assistant, you know, all and and the educator than for guests coming through, because like you said, you're you're more in that space of sharing that space with the with the guest. Versus in a larger zoo, you are usually assigned to just that area you're in. There's a maintenance team, there's a horticulture team, uh, vet staff will definitely take your input, but there's plenty of people to go around in the vet hospital that you your assistance isn't needed there, just go back to working on your stuff. Right. So it's not that one is better or worse, it's just that they're different, in my opinion. Yes. I worked at the San Diego Zoo for a very long time as a zoo keeper, and I appreciate all that I was able to experience and do. But I will admit that when I moved into the ambassador role, I started traveling around and seeing other zoos, small zoos, big zoos, everything in between. Coming from the San Diego Zoo, I was like, oh, how cool would it have been? I remember specifically, uh, not too far from where you are, Point Defiant Zoo, we partnered with them uh for Clouded Leopards to do some media around uh clouded leopard conservation. And so I went up the Point Defiant Zoo, spent, I think, two or three days there. And I was I, you know, I went there as a kid because I grew up in Washington State. So I do, I do remember going there as a kid and thinking it's a great zoo. But you know, it had been a while since I've been up there. And when I was up there, looking out through the lens of an adult zoo person, I was like, oh man, what a great little facility. Just that like you said, it's the the intimacy with the teams, the the intimacy you have the community of people coming there to visit. Uh it's just it's a different kind of experience that again, there's not one that's better or worse. I always tell people when they ask me which is better, I say, well, what are you hoping to get out of it as a zoo worker, as a as a zoo keeper? What is your goal? Because I think a lot of times people look at the big zoos and they think, oh, they they want to be attached to that because it's a big, famous zoo. And I don't blame them. It's a great, it's a great place. And maybe it is the best thing for them. But I think a lot of people I know too, keepers I've known, have been at the San Diego Zoo and then have basically worked as far as they could up the ladder there that they wanted to and went to a smaller zoo and found their joy and happiness there because they were able to bring big zoo experience to a small zoo, but also have more impact in that smaller space. So it's different for everybody. And uh I just wanted your opinion because I I know you've had so much experience with that. And and I agree with your assessment too, from a guest perspective. I think it is easy for a um a non-zoo person to look at something that's a big zoo and look at their strong marketing and all they have to offer for that experience, and it's a great experience. But I also would recommend don't shy away from stopping by a small accredited zoo in a smaller city because you might have that opportunity where every keeper is in your face telling you about their animal, and you're gonna have this opportunity to learn more about animal care or the species or the individual animal that otherwise you'll never get at a big zoo because you're good luck finding a zoo keeper to talk to. Right.

SPEAKER_04 39:01

Yeah, no, that's that's exactly how it is, you know. Like to actually to piggyback off of what you just said, too. Um right, you're you're responsible, right, for so many things at a small facility from the zoo keep from the zookeeper standpoint. Like you have to do everything. I'm just okay, I'm bringing it up again just because I'm I'm I'm going, I'm having flashbacks of literally doing so many things, but again, like was it stressful at times? Yeah, because look, I don't know what I'm doing. Like I've never done this before, but I I felt so on top of it. I felt I'm earning my stripes as a keeper, right? Be having gone through that experience from a smaller facility. I almost suggest that well, one, I feel like you kind of have to, because a lot of times the bigger facilities require that you have two years of prior zookeeping experience, which it's changing now. It's changing, but they require that you have zookeeping experience. So how do you get zookeeping experience if all the zoos don't let you become a zookeeper?

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:14

So smaller facilities a lot of times are they're a little bit more lenient. Yeah. Um, you know, they're they're much more chill. But no, yeah, that's that's uh again, the flashbacks. I'm just like, wow, all the things I could have ruined. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding, I'm kidding. But there were moments.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

There were moments, there were moments. Well, fair enough, man. I I appreciate you sharing your insight on that. Uh, you know, I know that we were mostly talking about your nature walks with kids and your mentor program, but I just wanted your insight too on that because I think it's a fun topic to to kick around, especially with people that have the experience you have in so much in the big and small facilities and visiting facilities and things like that. So I appreciate you playing along and answering that question as well. No problem. It's a fun question.

SPEAKER_04 41:03

I I actually love that question. I get it all the time, and I feel like I've I've had it so much I should have an answer rehearsed, but I don't. You know, like I I get it all the time, Rick. I hear it so often. It's like good because I well, because I tell I tell them, right, because they know right by travel that I I travel all like everywhere. Right. And I've worked at almost every facility here in Washington. That's an accredited facility. You know, I almost collected the Seattle aquarium like like with like a fan house ring, but I didn't. I turned I actually I actually turned turned that one down. I um because that's when I realized I I I wasn't meant to be animal care anymore. Like I I needed I had a I had a bigger calling. Well, animal care is all is a huge calling. I just want to say that I'm not trying to downplay animal calling. No, no, I don't care. But but for me, right, I had I there was things I had I felt like I was meant to do. Animal care was my stepping stone to do that.

SPEAKER_03 42:09

Well, I think it's not just a stepping stone, it's part of your story, it's part of how you are getting where you need to be and what you're you're meant to do. And I think animal care is a great opportunity for someone like you to have that foundation now to be who you are and what you're doing and offering to kids and offering to the public with your knowledge and experience. So yeah, I I I totally get it, and don't take it as you saying uh anything negative about animal care by any means.

SPEAKER_04 42:38

Yeah, animal care is great. I I think I've I've I've uh become known. Even I actually changed my bio like you did years ago, like my my Instagram bio, because I you know I don't see myself as a quote unquote zookeeper anymore. Right, right. You know, they but they you know they say once a keeper, always a keeper, all that, all that, everything. But but I I I definitely I actually with some changes at my suit at my facility recently, I've I've had to get back into doing animal care more, but I still you know I changed my bio to just call myself a wildlife educator. But I found because I go to zoos and I do content with zoos, it's become very niche and people still see me as a zookeeper. But I will say this too, though, I've learned some people still don't know I have a day job. They go, wait a minute, this isn't your this isn't your full-time job. I go, I I have two full-time jobs, right?

SPEAKER_03 43:39

Yeah, you know, but anyways, anyways, well, you know, I I appreciate you agreeing to come back on being my first repeat guest here on Animals Nature and you. And and as always, you know, I appreciate everything you do, buddy. I'll make sure that your information is down in the show notes. So if anybody wants to look further into the nature walks or Into the virtual mentoring program. I highly recommend, of course, anybody with kids that might be slightly interested in animals, you gotta hook them up with Jordan because that slight interest will undoubtedly bloom, as you know from listening to Jordan. He is uh he's a bit energetically contagious. So in a good way. It's true, buddy. It's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:21

And I'll be back here for a third episode, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_03 44:24

Oh, I don't doubt it. It's the year is young, my friend. The year is young. Such a fun podcast. Thanks so much, Jordan.

SPEAKER_04 44:30

What's that?

SPEAKER_03 44:31

That's such a fun podcast. I love it. Well, I appreciate the endorsement. I appreciate it. Thanks so much, buddy. We'll catch you next time. Awesome. Thank you. And of course, thank you, dear listeners. I appreciate you joining me on this curious odyssey that we call Animals Nature and You. And a big thank you again to Jordan for taking the time to be a guest yet again. And if you caught that first episode of this podcast where Jordan was my guest, we talked about his origin stories, how he got into what he's doing and all of that. And we we shared of almost an hour, if not at least an hour, of conversation. This one I wanted to really make sure we focus on the work that he's doing with kids. The nature walks free to those who want to do them. And it's so impactful when you can have someone show you around who knows the environment, knows the animals, helps the kids' curiosity explode and grow. It's just so awesome to know that he's doing that in the virtual program that he has going on, where he can be a virtual mentor for kids to learn more about animals and wildlife there too, to help inspire and grow that desire to be a part of conservation, a part of the ecosystems, understanding our local wildlife and animals all over the world. It's such great work. So all of his links will be down below, of course, so that way you can catch up and learn more about him. And if you want to, Animals Nature and You has its own little corner of social media, the Instagram, Animals Nature and You, all one word, right there on Instagram. And then my website, zoologyrick.com, and all the social media links will be there on the website, or just look for Zoology Rick on just about every social media platform. And one last thing to remind you if you haven't already, please subscribe or follow Animals Nature and You wherever you're listening or watching, if you're watching on YouTube or wherever it may be, because that way you won't miss out on the next episodes. Every Tuesday we have our 10-minute Tuesdays where we focus on either something that's a reflection back to the interview we had with the person. We talked about a particular species or a current event that's going on. And then every Thursday we have a new interview with someone doing some awesome work. So don't want to miss that. You want to make sure you subscribe and follow. With that, let's wrap this up. Have a good one, everybody.