The Unexpected Path from Wildlife Rehab to Global Keeper Exchange - Part 2

Part 2 of 2

Alice Vassallo started her career in animal care by volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitation center. And from there, her journey into zoo keeping, wildlife education, international travel and conservation grew.

In this episode, discover how her journey from studying Latin and working in wildlife rehab to shaping global keeper exchange initiatives and connection people to conservation is as amazing as it sounds. You'll hear her insights on the power of humor and accessibility in wildlife education, why investing in zookeepers is vital for our planet’s future, and how her innovative programs benefit people and wildlife alike.

This episode is perfect for aspiring zoo professionals, conservation advocates, and animal lovers eager to make a difference. Alice’s heartfelt message reminds us that as the world continues to change, our approach to wildlife education and conservation should continue to evolve and grow as well.

Animals, Nature, and You on IG:
https://www.instagram.com/animalsnatureandyou

Links mentioned in this episode:
Asshole Animals with Alice on Instagram
Keeper Exchange
American Association of Zoo Keepers (AAZK)
Clouded Leopard Working Group
Pardalis Talent

Find Rick here:
ZoologyRick.com

Rick's social media stuff...
Instagram
YouTube
Facebook
Threads
BlueSky




Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

I'm Rick Schwartz, educator, public speaker, and all-around curious guy. Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I have worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature, and You, a podcast that explores the connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome back to part two of this interview with the amazing Alice here on Animals, Nature and You. I'm not going to do the full introduction that we normally do. We're just going to roll right into it. If you haven't, though, listened to part one yet, please jump back and listen to part one. Came out yesterday. Part two today, we're going to pick up where I asked her the question which is better to work at and start at, big zoo or small zoo? I really want to know her opinion on this because she has done so much work in so many different zoos and she has worked with a lot of different keepers. So she's got a really good insight to this. So with that, I'm just going to lead right into the interview. And one last note though, real quick, if there's anything Alice mentions or I mentioned in this interview you want more information on, our social media links and websites and everything else will be down in the show notes below in the YouTube or wherever you might be listening to your podcast, it'll all be there. Okay. With that, I'm going to wrap it up. We're going to jump right into me asking that question, and we get to listen to Alice's answer. And so I have my experience working with small zoos and big zoos, but I want I want to ask you your opinion because it's usually the question is usually which is better. And I know there's not my response to that was always it depends on what you think better means. Totally. So I I want your perspective, pluses and minuses of looking at working at starting at a big zoo versus small zoo.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Yeah, totally. And I think um I've I've spent more time in little zoos and small zoos than I have in in big. And you know, I I started, you know, if you start strong somewhere like Brookfield Zoo, as I said, you know, you know how great that uh that institution is. It's they, you know, have a lot of uh a lot of keepers, a lot of um money and resources to to throw at things, right? Um Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

And so we tend to see that in the big zoos here in the States. Absolutely. Bigger zoos tend to have that the uh larger source resources, larger financial ability to do bigger things.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yes. That's so I mean I I always gravitate more towards the and it also depends on what kind of person you are, right? Like because I I gravitate more towards the small zoos because I like wearing many hats and uh being able to make a difference at the small zoos. So prior to my job, I've been at my job for the last uh year, nearly coming up to two years, and I I worked two zoos, I I've done this several times, and I don't know why I've done it, because it's such a silly thing to do where I work two zoos at the same time, which is in the world.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

To resume building, you're not.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yeah, I mean, sure, yes. Fast tracking my way to having worked at every zoo in the UK. But uh yeah, I think uh and I've worked at two zoos at the same time. And at one point I was working at a big zoo and a small zoo at the same time. And like I was working at uh ZSL, which is an incredible organization, the Zoological Society of London, um, which is historic and you know epic, and you know, one of the titans of the UK industry when it comes to zoos, and you know, the the work that's gone on there and the the level of keepers they churn out, they you know, they'd raise you to a very high standard. I was working at there at the same time as working at an you know uh a privately owned small zoo um in the countryside in the middle of nowhere, you know, where it's you know four acres in total, which is of you know, I don't know, do you use acres in states? Okay, good. It's like it's the symmetric system. Like, am I getting this wrong? Um no, so a very, very small zoo comparatively, you know, uh to my other zoo, which was absolutely huge, is ZSL Whipsnade Zoo. And um, I gravitate more towards the small zoos because I'm a I I'm a doer. Like I like doing things and I like improving things. I don't like leaving things, I always like leaving things in a better state than when I found them, right? And so I spent six years there, sort of building up training programs. I actually a lot of my job as well, I was getting a lot of um, this is a bit of a weird thing to say, I was getting a lot of free stuff for the zoo. So I was writing to local companies, to businesses to see if we could collaborate on projects. I was helping to sort of build up old parts of the zoo that were a little bit uh dilapidated or getting new enrichment, getting an enrichment shared, bringing in, you know, a new um jetty so we could go out to Lima Island. I was doing a load of like, you know, just gathering resources, making connections for the zoo as well, on top of my zookeeping role. And I just think um if you're the kind of person that likes to be a part of uh, you know, a part of a big machine, right? You are a part of a well-oiled machine, you'll be treated, you know, arguably a bit better. And you know, my my time at ZSL, you know, they treated you very well, they paid you very well, you got great benefits. I, you know, I can recommend working for a bigger zoo. But if you like the sort of the the sort of, I don't want to say down and out, that's not really what I mean. The underdog. Like I think, you know, if you wanna, if you want to help be a part of building something up, um then I think work at a small zoo. And both are great and both are fine, and you might want to do different ones at different parts of your career. I think it's, you know, very, very okay to just work at a bigger zoo and you know, be part of this. And you know how it is. Rick, working as part of San Diego Zoo must have been incredible and the dream job. And, you know, it was a I echoed a similar sentiment when I worked at London Zoo and ZSL because it's, you know, such a great charity to be a part of, and the conservation work they're doing it made you proud to be a part of it, right? To be part of something much bigger than yourself that's got this historic and cultural value. Um, and small zoos perhaps won't have that, but they they most likely you'll be able to sort of make more of an impact and wear more hats and learn more skills, even there, I think.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Yeah. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 5:58

I don't know how you feel about that.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

I'm pretty much the same of the same opinion. So I before I landed the San Diego Zoo, I spent about seven years bouncing around different organizations and companies profit, nonprofit, uh domestic animal work in training versus exotics, conservation work, etc. And then when I was at the San Diego Zoo, we partnered a lot with smaller zoos for different projects. And so I got to go to these smaller zoos and visit them. Also, part of my job was working with our program with children's hospitals. So we would travel to other cities and then partner temporarily with that zoo there to film things at that zoo so the kids in those hospitals could then see things from their zoo. So I I've seen the gamut here across the United States when it comes to big and small and everything in between. And I agree with everything you said. It is the big zoo can really help in feeling you're part of the bigger picture. They have more finance. But with that, then there's more red tape, more politics, more people involved with making decisions. 100%. You are you get to have this job that you do, and that's but smaller organizations, bigger impact, less red tape. You might have to wear multiple hats, which if that's your thing, is a great thing, right? So it that's what I always my response to them when people ask me, like, which is better? I'm like, well, it depends on how you define better because it's really up to the individual. And I love how you put it too, that you it's it's good to do both, explore both and have a better understanding of yourself from doing that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Yeah. And I think you just be at different points in your career doing both, you know. Like you might want to, you know, start at a big place that trains you up to a level, and you know, as I said, you the the amount of knowledge and wisdom and standard of care that I learned from working in a a big zoo, I brought all of that to my small zoos and said, hey, look, you know, we don't have to have ZSL's resources or money to be doing X, Y, and Z. We can make our own little version of this, you know, and it just depends on where you are in your career. Um, you know, or you know, you start at a small zoo and you and you learn the ropes there and you graduate to a to a bigger zoo and and sort of um take those skills as well. It just, yeah, it depends on so much. You're totally right. Yeah. More red tape in the um in the large zoos is is uh like you couldn't have said that better. Just like sometimes a lot of faff to, yeah, it's a lot of uh what we call faff in the UK just to sort of get through it at times. It's a lot a bit of a pain.

SPEAKER_00 8:22

But yeah, yeah, you're gonna have fun. There's pluses and minuses to bull.

SPEAKER_02 8:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

And so this this part of the discussion here with you is is perfect. It really rolls into how I would like to wrap this up, uh, this conversation with you. You have started this program that was initially a small nonprofit in the UK for keeper exchange and education. And and talking about working with small zoos and big zoos, it really plays into this well in the sense of uh in and now it's growing into America. Can you expand a little bit more about what this program is? And then I got a couple of questions about the program. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:56

Yeah. I mean, at its core, uh Keep is an organization that um is uh all about the exchanging of knowledge, right? And um, you know, not everybody. I love a conference, don't get me wrong. I'm all you'll see me at a conference like all the time, just chatting uh unsurprisingly, uh at the breaks and you know, at the bar at the end of the night. But, you know, not everybody can sit, you know, sat still looking at a presentations for eight hours if they go to a conference to meet people, right? Like um conferences can be quite um yeah, emotionally draining or like draining for you if you're used to having a physical job, right? I find it so difficult to sit and maybe they're gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Oh, I fall asleep during that all the time.

SPEAKER_02 9:34

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Because I'm so used to constantly moving around. It's like I have to be doing something physically, otherwise my body's like, oh, it's time for nap.

SPEAKER_02 9:40

Exactly. Yeah. Or I just end up eating snacks the whole time. I'm just I've got a I've got a plate of snacks as I'm watching the presentations. Um, but you know, so not everybody learns from um conferences, you know, and you can learn some great things from conferences and seeing what people are doing across the across the country or the world about what they're doing with their animals and projects and everything like that. But um we figured that, you know, learning on the job or shadowing people um at a different zoo for, as I said, a few days if you were in the UK, because the UK is very small and you can kind of get away with nowhere's more than like a six-hour journey from each other, pretty much in the UK. It's you know, it's a very kind of small island. Um, but a few weeks, let's say if you're in a in a larger country like the States. Um, so you know, spending some time at other collections, other uh facilities and organizations, I think can be really useful, not only just to network with your, you know, fellow like-minded, passionate individuals, but just to pick up new ideas. And it could be, you know, something small as oh, you use those buckets instead of oh, okay, great, or oh, okay, you use that for enrichment. Oh, okay, great. And you know, you bring all those little things back to your collection, to your zoo, to your aquarium. And it just makes, I don't know, I think you feel refreshed. Like, you know, this is so funny that this loop's back around because we are talking now, but I actually had my first ever um keeper exchange experience at San Diego Zoo in like 2012. I spent a day on the birds team. Oh my god, it was one of the best days of my life. First of all, I was a baby keeper and I was getting to spend a day. I had a I I had a friend that used to work at San Diego Zoo who kind of hooked me up with a day on the birds team. And um it was amazing. I got to learn so much and meet new people and just like I got to help with uh some things, and I just I came out of it so buzzed and excited that I'd been somewhere and got to learn, especially San Diego Zoo, right? Like that's just you know the mecca of zoos. It's you know, everyone flocks there to kind of learn how it's done. So I think, you know, uh we started keeping in mind that um uh that we wanted to exchange this information. We wanted to bring the zoo industry closer together. So what we do is we speak to zoos and aquariums to see if they'll host zookeepers for you know a certain amount of time. We're very liberal with the times because we know that zoos, you know, have a lot going on. And we say, hey, can you um host a zookeeper for a couple of days or a couple of weeks, um, once a year, twice a year, everything like that. The zoos uh sign up with us, the keepers sign up with us. Uh it's all free of charge in the UK. I believe with uh Keep AZAC, it will be as part of your ASAC membership that you can um access the Keeper Exchange benefits. Uh, but I believe that's how it's gonna go. Um and yeah, it's um we've been running that, as I said, for for three years and with you know, world domination in mind, you know, the the longer we've been doing this, where the more like, hey, we've got to reach out to these guys. What about these guys? Or, you know, this zoo association will reach out to us and we're like, yeah, let's work on a project for this. So um that's a little bit a bit about what we do in essence, is um, you know, encouraging people to get out there and and visit other zoos uh and aquariums to to learn how they do things, swap ideas, you know, network.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

You you in your answer here and and how you explained all of this, you you kind of answered my question that's coming up, which is my follow-up question was like, why is this important? But you you've kind of laid that out with the importance of sharing knowledge and networking and exposure to other places to reinvigorate you, expand your knowledge. So I'm gonna change the question just a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 13:03

Sure, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

Why is this important to you?

SPEAKER_02 13:07

Oh my goodness. No one is a very good idea.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Because listening to I will say this, listening to you describe this, you were very passionate about talking about what you and Matt are doing. You were very passionate and excited about sharing how you found your way into zookeeping and working at different zoos. But when you were describing this, there was a certain level that just seemed to come up in your energy.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Oh. And and surprising to me, I have a lot of energy. Like I'm like I went from a 10 to an 11. What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 13:34

I was more of a 12. It was more of a 12. Yeah. No, but seriously, so instead of why is this important, because I think you'd covered that in describing what it is. Um, why is this for you, Alice? Why is this important to spearhead this and keep because it's not easy to launch something like this, and now you're going international with it and you are you're persistent about it. Why is it important to you?

SPEAKER_02 14:00

Yeah, that's that's a really great question. And sort of as you were speaking there, I was sort of trying to rack my brains for an answer that makes sense and that could that I could articulate uh, you know, w with trying to drop a lesson in it, maybe. I don't know, trying to say something wise. And um, you know, I I think ultimately at its core, I was given that opportunity. I came to San Diego Zoo, somebody sorted that out for me. And, you know, I I loved it so much and had such a great time, and I got so much from it. And every single time I get, because I every single person that goes on a placement in the UK, I will message them directly, whether it's I slide into their DMs or I email them, uh, depending on how if I know them or not, and I will say, How did it go? Did you have a great time? Every single person. And any single time I get photos, I get videos, I get a paragraph about how much of an amazing time they had, you know, my heart grows 10 sizes because, you know, that's the sort of stuff that you just love to see in the industry of people getting a little bit closer together. And I I get so much from the connections that I've made with people over the years and you know, talking to different people and learning different things, I, you know, and I'm I'm so happy that I can provide a service or help to provide a service. It's a team effort, it's not just me that offers that to other people. You know, with with the keeper exchanges, this is not a new thing, right? People have been doing this sort of thing for for ages, right? And um, you know, how I've understood it in uh in the years prior to setting something up, you know, your curator or perhaps you would call up a zoo or message someone and say, Hey, can I just spend a couple of days or like a week with you guys? We're getting this new animal in. I know you guys have them, or you know, I've got a week off here, I'd love to spend some time. But for those people and that are less extroverted or less, you know, uh confident in that sort of thing, anyone can apply. You apply to a placement just like you would a job, right? You don't need to be, it's not about who you know or how many connections you have. You can throw your hat into the ring if you are a keeper that's been working a year in a tiny zoo in the middle of nowhere on an island, you can say, hey, I want to come and learn here. I want to come learn at San Diego Zoo. And um, and you know, you will be considered. They will look at your application and say, okay, great, this person could really benefit from from learning with us. So okay. Does that answer your question?

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Does it sort of so it's funny, it's funny. You know, I love behavior and I studied animals for years, and I got into studying humans because I wanted to reach humans better with my wildlife education. And I uh it's funny as you're trying to describe why this is important for you. You kind of touched on it, but then it went into justifying the importance. Oh, okay. Which is which is a normal thing. So because because what I'm seeing, what I'm seeing, and I'm gonna call you out on this because I know I know we can have this discourse.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

Go for it, go for it.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

Is you're trying to describe a feeling.

SPEAKER_02 16:57

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Because and and and we have a hard time as humans putting words to feelings because it's not it's not a tangible thing.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

And and as much as I'm calling you out on that, the what I what I'm hoping my audience gets from this is that you at your core have this innate desire to connect people and also connect them to what you got connected to when you got a chance to go to the San Diego Zoo in an exchange. That was so meaningful and impactful for you. You're like, I need to give that to other people. And I think that's a beautiful thing. I think it's a beautiful thing. So, if my interpretation of what I just heard from you, why this is important to you, is because it's a heart-centered thing for you to do this for others, yeah, and you see value in that. And I think that's wonderful. I can't thank you enough for putting this effort into this type of a program because when it comes to the zoo world, the zoos of today are the foundation of what's going to save this planet, save this wildlife, save us as humans. And so the fact that you're investing so much of your time into creating a space that improves the zookeeper experience, the zookeeper knowledge is so impactful. And another great example of how we can do things for wildlife and for nature for conservation that is not necessarily a direct line to I'm saving this rhino from being poached. You know, it's it's so awesome. Thank you so much for doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 18:23

I I appreciate that. And I think, you know, I I hope that you'll agree with me on this. And whether it's um whether it's conservation projects in situ or in the wild, or if it's uh something like a zoo keeper exchange program, you've got to start with the people first, right? Before you can get to the animals, it has to be with the people. And, you know, I one of the the mottos of Keep is like happy keepers equals happy animals, right? Like and if you are invested in as a if you know that your employer cares about you enough to send you to San Diego Zoo for two weeks or or whatever it might be, if they um if they feel happy and invigorated from coming back from you know going to another zoo and meeting new people, making new friends and and learning lots of new cool stuff, you know, they can they bring that to their job, they bring that to their animals. And, you know, in a world where we're losing a lot of very talented zoo keepers who with a lot of knowledge, right, a lot of knowledge is being lost because a lot of people, as you might know, as you know, age out of the industry, right? Through you know, money problems, through whatever it is, um, you know, their body is sort of uh it's a very labor-intensive job.

SPEAKER_00 19:28

It's a labor-intensive job. I know more people who've left the business before retirement age just because the body can't do it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 19:34

Exactly, yeah. And you know, with those people, with those um, you know, people that have been in the industry that long and then just going like that, we lose this a gap of knowledge, right? But if you can share that knowledge before those people leave, if those people can mentor other people from different zoos, you know, or maybe they stick around a little bit longer because their zoo invested in them to go out into Madagascar or Costa Rica for uh, you know, to go and help with a project there. Maybe they hang on a little bit longer. You know, everybody and the animals are to benefit, but you've always just got to start with the people, right? Like I think that's just, you know, the most important it's not the most important thing, but it's where an important building block in helping the animals.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Sure. I mean, and that's a conversation I've had with other guests too, when we talk directly about conservation. It's about going into the native spaces and working with the people who live there. So sort of what you and Matt, when you went to Madagascar as an example, it was a big opportunity to also help and work with the local people in those spaces that helps the wildlife in the native space as well. So yeah, it's it's all connected. It's all connected.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Community-led projects are just the way forward. And you know, it's you can't you can't do any I I say can't. It's tougher to do more impactful conservation work if you haven't involved the local communities, right? Because you know, you can um set up shop and you can do your research and everything out there, but as soon as you pack up and go home, you know, the you know, who is gonna look after the work that you're doing or or you know, get involved with the work or benefit from the work, you know, anything like that. So it has to be community-led to be successful, I think. So yeah, starting with the people is is important.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

And I think, yeah, and I think that is the same sort of message here with the zookeepers. Invest in your zookeepers. And you're gonna invest in your animals, you're gonna invest in a better experience for your guests to get people more excited to come back and support the zoo, support conservation efforts and everything else. So yeah, I love it. Absolutely love it. Absolutely love it. So as we're getting ready to wrap up here, yes. Let's let's lay it out for everybody. Of course, I'll put everything in the episode notes as far as how to get a hold of you, where the different links are. But let's talk about where people can find you, get in touch with you, whether they just want to find out more about your work, whether they want to get involved with what you and Matt are doing, or whether they want to get involved with the Keep program.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Lay it all out. Where how do we find you?

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Let's do it. Okay. If you want to the easiest way to get a hold of me directly, I'd say it's probably through Instagram. Like um I I do check my my messages, you know, whether it goes into sort of the you know, junk or spam inbox, you know, the like requests that that's where. The request, yeah. You know what I mean. The request file, yes. The request file, whether it goes into there or directly into my inbox, you know, I do check it and I and I do see messages from people. And, you know, um, so if you do want to get a hold of me, my Instagram is Arsehole Animals with Alice. That's the easiest way. A-S-S-Rather than the British way of spelling Arsehole, which is A-R-S-E. Asshole Animals with Alice. It's me that um find me on Instagram. If you want to learn more about the keeper exchange program, um if you're in the states, if you're located in the states, uh the ASAC website actually has a fantastic little page and drop down that talks about Keep AZAC, which is uh launching this year. They're gonna be putting out some of their first placements. Um you can keep up to date with them. Obviously, follow AZAC on on Instagram and Facebook as well. Uh you can go on Twitter.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Just for those listening who don't know, AZAC is American Association of Zookeepers. I'll have the link down below as well.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

Absolutely, yes. Thank you. Yes, uh, American Association of Zookeepers. And um, if you want to find out more about the Keeper Exchange program, um you can find us at keeperexchange.org. Um, that is the UK site though. If you're if you're listening from the UK, great, or from Ireland, that uh that is for uh for you. But um if you're in the States, you're probably better off going to the uh ASAC, the American Association of Zookeepers website to find out more about it. If you want to find out more about Clouded Leopards and the Clouded Leopard Working Group, who are a fantastic clouded leopard charity, may I add, uh, based all the way in Nepal. Um they're an incredible if you love clouded leopards, if you know what they are and you think they're the the most beautiful cat species, uh, which is the correct opinion to have, um, you can go on to their um uh their website, which is clouded leopardpartners.org, or uh you can find them on Instagram at Clouded Leopard Working Group. Um who else? Pardalis is very new. I don't know if I uh, you know, like if you do want to message me about Pardalis, absolutely find me through Instagram, but uh and you can find out more on uh PardalisTalent.com if you want to know a little bit more about what I do with Matt or um what the the business is about. I think that's it. I think I named everything, didn't I? Super exchange, awful animals, so I can't even keep track of the things I do, right? There's so many things.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

I love it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Just message me on Instagram, guys. If you're listening and you want to know more, just give me a message on Instagram.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Fair enough. Fair enough. I will put all the links down below though, just in case. But yes. Uh and you know, even if you are not even sure about clouded leopards, I would say go to the website and check them out, learn more about them because you'll fall in love with them. They are amazing. I worked with Tigers, Lions, a leopard, hands-on with oslots and servals. And I've always admired clouded leopards, but then when I got to actually work with them uh back to back at the uh in conjunction in partnership with uh Point of Hands Zoo years ago, and then at the San Diego Zoo as well. Oh my gosh, they're just so amazing. They're amazing cats. And there's and the more you learn about it, you're like, wait, what?

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Yes, well, we could go a whole other episode about that.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

So yeah, ultimately.

SPEAKER_02 24:59

I mean, if you want to bring me back on just to go talk about Cloud of Leopards, we can we can do an hour and a half on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

We might, we might.

SPEAKER_02 25:05

Please, honestly, love one of uh two cat species that can climb down trees headfirst. I'm just saying, guys. Incredible.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Like my favorite animal, the benturong does, because they can rotate those back legs around. They're awesome. That's it. So awesome.

SPEAKER_02 25:17

Their binterongs are so good. Yeah, that was a that's a great choice of favorite animal.

SPEAKER_00 25:21

Oh, they picked me, I didn't pick them.

SPEAKER_02 25:24

As is the way. That that's so true. That's so true. Yeah, you don't start this thing being like that's gonna be my favorite animal, it chooses you. You're so right.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Well, Alice, uh, I appreciate you so much, as you know. And thank you for taking the time. I know you're busy with all you do, and you work both hours there in the UK, and you then you work hours here in America because you do so much with the US as well. And as if it's not far enough away, you're also doing West Coast hours.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

So I know, right? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Adding that extra chunk of time there. But thank you so much for taking the time to be on Animal's Nature and you. I appreciate your time and appreciate you. And I think I probably will be having you on again so we can talk about clouded duckers.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Oh, anytime. You know, just give me a call, Rick. I'll be there. Just say when. Just say when.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

All right.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

I love it. Thank you so much for having me, Rick.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

You are very welcome. Thank you. And as always, thank you so much, dear listeners. I appreciate you joining me on this Curious Odyssey known as Animals, Nature, and You. And what a pleasure to have some time with Alice. You know, it's funny, I always schedule these things thinking, okay, there are 30, 45 minutes, but we go on for so much longer because there's so much great information. And talking with Alice was no different. She did cover a lot of things, so if there's anything she mentioned you want more information on, as I said during the interview, those links are down below in the show notes. Along with, if you want to follow along, Animals Nature New has its own social media handle on Instagram. That link is down there with my website to zoologyrick.com and all of my social media. You can get a hold of me there, connect if you'd like, whatever may be. I want to remind you, if you haven't already, please hit subscribe or follow on your podcast player or on YouTube if you're watching there. That way we make sure you don't miss the next episode. Every Tuesday we have 10-minute episodes that sometimes go a little bit longer that are about something we reflect back on the previous conversation or something topical that's happening in the world today with animals, nature, conservation, whatever it might be. Then every Thursday, like this episode, we have a great interview with someone who's pretty awesome, doing some awesome work, and we get to hear all about it. So with that, I'm gonna wrap this up. Thanks again for being here. I appreciate you. Appreciate the connections we're making, and all of you who are sharing these podcasts too, by the way. The numbers are growing, it's pretty cool to see. So thank you so much for that. All right, have a good one, everybody.