What is the Future of Conservation? Community? Innovation? Empathy?

Join Rick Schwartz in an insightful conversation with Kathayoon Khalil, Vice President and Director of the Columbus Center for Wildlife Conservation at the Columbus Zoo. They explore the multifaceted world of conservation, empathy, and systemic change. Discover how innovative strategies, community engagement, and a deep understanding of animal perspectives are shaping the future of wildlife preservation.

Kathayoon also discusses the importance of "less charismatic" species (looking at you fresh water mussels) and the reasons for deploying empathy in public outreach, resiliency in conservation and embracing risk.

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Links mentioned in this episode:
Columbus Zoo
The Wilds
Columbus Zoo Conservation

Kathayoon Kahlil on LinkedIn

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ZoologyRick.com

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Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Even though we can see our own house cats sleeping on the couch and feel like that animal is perfectly happy, we see a tiger sleeping and we're like, oh, that tiger is bored and sad. But then that leads to continuity too. So continuity is the amount of time spent with the animal. We have infinite more empathy for our pets and for animals in our care. And that is because we spend time getting to know those animals. So if we can get people to watch for longer, if we can get people to look closer even to those non-charismatic animals, they can start to build narratives and understanding of that animal's perspective in a way they might not be able to if they just waltzed on by.

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Measure success, excuse me. And for me, just the joy, the work I'm putting in on this is my success. I get to do this, I am doing this. But also the secondary success is the audience that keeps showing up, your support, you're sharing these podcast episodes, leaving comments on social media, connecting with me there, and I appreciate it tremendously. Let's get into today's conversation. It's really exciting for me to have somebody from the Columbus Zoo on as a guest. The Columbus Zoo is one of the greater zoos, not only for the facilities, the zoo and aquarium that are there, but they have the wilds, which is a whole separate experience outside of Columbus. Then there's all the conservation work they have been doing for many, many years. Just an example that comes to mind of the gorillas in Rwanda, uh, and then a lot of work locally here in the U.S. as well, as many zoos. It's not just them. Many zoos do this, but the Columbus Zoo is really a powerhouse zoo and organization and has done a lot of conservation. So, with that, today's guest is right there in the thick of it. Kathy Yoon Khalil is the vice president and director of the Columbus Center for Wildlife Conservation at the Columbus Zoo and the Wilds. That is a very long title because of the place where she is, but it all does mean something. It's important that we mention all of those things because it is a collective, it is a large group of people doing this work, and she just happens to be the vice president and director, which is pretty awesome, I gotta say. So prior to this position, Kath Yoon has worked at the New England Aquarium, Seattle Aquarium, where we met many years ago, Oregon Zoo and Canopy strategic partners. She received her PhD in 2014 from Stanford University in Learning Sciences and Technology Design, excuse me, and her master's in environmental science from Yale University's School of Forestry and Environmental Studies. She has been working in zoos and aquariums since age 14 and is fascinated with how we measure our impact and effect change in behaviors and attitudes. Kathy Hoon is an alumna of the Emerging Wildlife Conservation Leaders Program and a former commissioner for organ, fish, and wildlife. There's a lot more you have done, Kathy Uhn. I know that, and we haven't covered it all, but I want to jump into our conversation and get things started. So thank you so very much for taking the time to be here today on Animals, Nature, and You.

SPEAKER_01 4:25

Thank you so much for having me. This is going to be a very fun conversation. I know it.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Excellent, excellent. Well, uh, you know, it was funny. We were talking a little bit before doing this interview, and you reminded me we met many, many years ago at an AZA conference in Seattle, which is so funny because it was such a whirlwind uh trip for me coming up from San Diego and going to the Woodland Park Zoo where I did my internship and then meeting up with family that I have there in Seattle and then meeting everybody there at AZA. I'm like, oh yeah, that's right. We did cross paths.

SPEAKER_02 4:55

But it's been a lot of people.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

It's easy to forget.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Well, I mean, it's just it's so much, you know. But it's so much. You were you were at the Seattle Aquarium at the time.

SPEAKER_01 5:04

I was, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

You have, as as I mentioned in the intro, you have quite a few facilities you have been at before you landed there at the Columbus Zoo and the conservation director that you're at position you're in. Can it's it's a unique path for all of us. It's a unique job title that you have. How did you get to where you are?

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah. I mean, there's the resume version and then there's the introduction, but yeah, in the intro, I covered, you know, all the different stuff.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

It's like, you know, it just like was it is it age 14 doing volunteering in zoo? So has it been like since you were a child, you picked up a worm and said, This is my best friend? No. Or is something by accident? Everyone's got their own story. So I'm just curious.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

I was definitely not a really an animal kid. I mean, I was an animal kid in the sense that I thought they were fine, you know, and I liked animals and I grew up on a farm, so I really liked being outside and um exploring, but uh, I'd never thought of it as a viable career path necessarily. I mean, I subscribed to Ranger Rick. That was a great magazine, but I didn't like it as much as American Girl, you know, so I can't pretend to be one of those, like I knew from from in utero that I would go into this field. But I I did know from from my teenage years that I was really impressed by the amount of passion and commitment that folks in this field have to their work and the idea that we can all work together on something that will outlast and outlive us. Uh, that was a lot more compelling to me than a lot of what I'd seen in other more individualistic, egoistic fields that I had been exposed to up to that point. So, you know, I got to where I am today from a series of missteps, winding roads and yeses, you know, so, so, so many no's, but finding the right yeses in the right places and kind of trusting, trusting the winding road that got me here.

SPEAKER_00 6:57

So when you say yeses and no's, is it people telling you yes and no, or are you saying yes to things or no to things?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

Both, but I, you know, one thing I like to impress upon, especially people rising up in this field, is that your failure resume or your list of rejections is going to be 10 times as long as your list of acceptances. You know, for every PhD program I got into, I got rejected from eight others. For every job that I got, I didn't get callbacks from five others, you know. So it's uh the things you thought were in the bag sometimes are not. And the things that you just stretch and say, I might as well put your name out there, like this job, are the ones that end up landing.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Let's expand a little more on this job. What exactly does your so the title is quite long because it's you know the Center for Conservation, the Columbus Zoo, the wilds, all the things. Yeah. And I get that. I get that. It's a large organization doing a lot of things.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

What is your job? What is your role?

SPEAKER_01 7:53

Yeah. So I'm the orchestra conductor for all the conservation work that happens across all of No pressure.

SPEAKER_00 7:58

No pressure.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

No pressure. I know. I know. But what I love about that is that I don't have to be a subject matter expert in any one animal or any one ecosystem. I get to remove barriers and facilitate opportunities for the people across our parks who are passionate about what they're passionate about. So um, I'm a strategic thinker, I'm a dot connector. Those have always been my superpowers and a big picture person. And so I get to work with a team that excels at details and excels at execution and um helping we help each other bring our ideas to life, which I really appreciate. So that that includes Columbus Zoo, the wild, Safari Golf, which is our Audubon certified golf course, and Zoombee Z Bay, which is our water park. And my facility, so to speak, my enterprise that I uh work with, the Columbus Center for Wildlife Conservation, is its own 501c3, but at the same time, functionally, we just live like I'm at the zoo right now, I go to the wilds often. I live within this ecos ecosystem of the Columbus Zoo family of parks.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah, yeah. And that's my history too comes from that multiple parks for for one organization. And it's it's always interesting because they're each so different. They have their own unique thing. And it is, like you just said, sort of this ecosystem in the organization because each plays a role. So being the dot connector, being the coordinator, the barrier remover, what are some of the programs your organization's working on right now?

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Yeah. So we've got we talk about doing conservation here, there, and everywhere. Uh, right here in Ohio, we do a lot, a lot, a lot of work on eastern hellbenders. And we have a freshwater mussel facility just down the road that's, you know, knee deep in the in the river system here, so we can be preserving freshwater mussels, which are the most endangered taxa. And on top of that, we have American bearing beetle work that happens out at the wilds, Massasuka rattlesnake work. So a lot of things locally, especially with inverts and less charismatic animals, which are some of my favorites. But then around the world, we have a 30-plus year long investment in East Central Africa, uh, especially Rwanda with gorillas and gray crowned crane conservation that I'm so happy to be uh just coming in the middle of that story. Or maybe 30 years is still the beginning. Maybe we'll look back in you know, 60 years.

SPEAKER_02 10:23

In conservation, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

Totally. Um, we also work a lot on manatee conservation through the wider Caribbean Manatee Alliance in partnership with Clearwater Marine Aquarium. And we have a Center for Species Survival that we run in India for Asian elephants. So that that's a snippet. I mean, there's so many programs. We have an one of the longest running, if not the longest running, Lemur Research Project happening in Madagascar with the Ranama Fauna Ruffed Lemur Project, and we support the Turtle Survival Alliance. So there's just there's a lot. There's a lot of it's very stimulating and very fun.

SPEAKER_00 10:59

And I I love that it is that you just listed all of that, and I know you just probably scraped the top of all the different things that the organization is involved in, because I think one of the parts that is definitely becoming more aware in our general society. But I I think it's a story that needs in a drum that needs to continue to be beaten, excuse me, that zoos are active, I don't want to say aggressive, but there's there's compelling work being done in conservation.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

And I love the fact too that you leaned into listing a lot of the less popular, less known ones, like the freshwater mussel. And and I know why that's important. But just real quick, uh sort of a high-level view. Why would a zoo and a conservation group care about freshwater mussels? They're just a weird-looking shell that is locked onto a dock or a rock or something. Why does that matter?

SPEAKER_01 11:52

Because we care about clean water, because humans need clean water just like animals do. And the health of our water water and our riparian areas is directly relevant to the freshwater mussel conservation because they're filters. And so with the muscle project, we're actually partnering with a few local organizations who are also passionate about mussels to try and bring outreach opportunities to the city of Columbus because it's an animal that lives right there in their backyard that many people may not even know about, let alone know the critical function that they play in our everyday lives, albeit silently.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

And underwater. So nothing very easily, yeah. Yeah. And that's that's what I love about a lot of these programs is, you know, that and and you will we'll hear people in our business often say, biologists and scientists say, it's like, you know, I'm so sick of hearing about the megafauna. But you know as well as I do in the world of conservation, especially when you're tied to a large organization doing multiple projects, that sometimes your your gorilla or your elephant is the hook to get someone in, to get involved, to get excited, to make a donation, and then the organization can can push out where that funding goes to these other projects that you put a muscle up on the billboard saying, you know, save my life, not too many people are gonna care because they don't understand. They they want the cute fuzzy, you know, the general public, though those who are gonna support us and that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

So I mean conservation is fundamentally a human enterprise, right? We do this work with humans, for humans. Right. We ourselves are are part of you know that that society, uh, just the same as someone who might not know or care about who a muscle what a muscle is. And so uh I am very open to multiple means of engagement, whatever it takes to get people hooked. Uh, and then we can then we've got a relationship and we can use that relationship to develop deeper and and more diverse connections.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, that that's one thing I wanted to talk with you about because we kind of touched on the concept of empathy work in conservation. And, you know, there that that sentence alone carries so much, whether it's the empathy for the general public and how we can get them to want to get involved, the empathy that those doing the work have, and then how that empathy sometimes can weigh so heavy on those of us who know and see the the dirty deeds that are being done and how we're trying to prevent things from happening the wrong direction. So uh share with me your thoughts on that. The empathy and conservation, what does that mean to you?

SPEAKER_01 14:20

Yeah. So speaking of the Seattle Aquarium, um, this was a project that I uh started working on back when I was there with the Pointefiant Zoo and the Woodland Park Zoo, all three of us coming together to understand what is really meant by empathy in a conservation context. And our very our short answer is that it's a perspective-taking exercise. It's a it's an ability that you grow over time. It is triggered or it is motivated by something that you observe, something that you see. It doesn't just happen in a vacuum. And you can feel empathy for people or for animals, and they often fire through the same neural pathways. So empathy is it gets conflated with love a lot. People use empathy to mean I I have empathy for that means I love that, or I feel for that. But really, it's about that perspective taking exercise to say that, and for some animals it's going to be easier than others, but to say that we are able to understand the multitude, even just cognitively, the multitude of ways that an animal can experience life on this planet. And that's something that really resonates with our visitors in zoos and aquariums, particularly, because they've got these up-close encounters with animals that are impossible anywhere else in the world unless you're very privileged or or very, you know, sure very fortunate to be able to see them in their native habitats. But what we really want to accomplish here is getting people to understand that every animal has a unique perspective in the world, has a unique experience, and how that experience is different to or similar to their own.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

And so when we look at the empathy of the animal, the empathy or for the animal, for the individual, do you see then a line or a way to build that reflecting back then to the empathy for self in the sense and then what I'm getting at is, and again, I'll use the freshwater mussel as an example. When we talk about conservation with the general public, we tend to lean into that empathy they have for the tiger or for the octopus or whatever it might be, a manatee, the empathy for these big, beautiful animals or the small little birds that they they find so uh you know enchanting. And what I see sometimes when we talk about empathy and converse conservation, excuse me, is the ability also for them to realize the interconnectedness we humans have with whatever animal they're falling in love with or having empathy for in the moment. How do you, as far as you're coordinating all these conservation groups, obviously you're not necessarily doing the direct outreach per se, but in all this paperwork where you're, I mean, in your position, you're you're dealing with grants, you're dealing with other NGOs, a wide variety of organizations outside of your organization, people within your organization. How do you go about when it comes to that point of the empathy for the animal, the empathy for conservation, being able to tie that back into also being important to the empathy we have for ourselves and our fellow humans?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Yeah. Gosh, so so many avenues to go through there. Um I'll kind of go in order of some of your points, starting with the empathy for the mega versus the not so charismatic. Uh and, you know, in a lot of our our work and the in the talks that we've done in trainings, we say that there are four characteristics of an animal that make them more or less uh able to elicit an empathy response. But they're also the four things that an interpreter or an educator can do to draw out an empathetic response, even in a non-charismatic animal. So um things like coherence, does the animal look like an animal? I mean, presence of eyes is a really big empathy builder. But if an animal doesn't have eyes, you can still point out that like this is a barnacle's foot, this is a barnacle's shell, it's like its body that's wrapped around this, you know, like softer inside, etc. Uh, agency, an animal's ability to serve its own needs. Does it eat, drink, play, socialize? Every animal does something like that. So interpreting for people in a way that they understand that um a barnacle might look different when they eat, but they still need food, and this is how they feed. And can you imagine if you had to catch peanut butter jelly sandwiches with your feet waving through the air? Uh affectivity. So in in the absence of or we will often substitute mobility for for affectivity. So that just means can the animal show emotion? And we will also, you've we've all heard it, like the animal is sitting still, it must be sad. And a cat is sleeping, must be sad. Animal's moving around, they must be happy. For whatever reason, our brain, even though you know, we can see our own house cats sleeping on the couch and feel like that animal is perfectly happy. We see a tiger sleeping and we're like, oh, that tiger is bored and sad.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

But then that leads to continuity too. So continuity is the amount of time spent with the animal. We have infinite more empathy for our pets and for animals and our care. And that is because we spend time getting to know those animals. So if we can get people to watch for longer, if we can get people to look closer even to those non-charismatic animals, they can start to build narratives and understanding of that animal's perspective in a way they might not be able to if they just waltz on by. But to think about how to connect that to people, I mean, empathy is a practice, first and foremost. It's not something you're you can be born a more or less empathetic person, but really if you never practice empathy in the sense that you practice when it's healthy and when it's not, when you need to lean in and when you need to detach, you're not gonna be able to master that skill. And so the empathy that, like I mentioned before, that we feel for animals can be translated. Those exact same skills are translated into empathy for people and empathy for self. So if you're able to understand the perspective of another person or animal, you may have a deeper understanding of your own perspective and what's shaped that. Yeah, I think that would be yeah, I was trying to think about like the other other parts of your question, but you know, empathy is I was gonna say it's not, yeah, it's not the silver bullet by any means. It's a tool in our toolkit. And so there are times when we look at it and say it's not the right tool. We need something else. Uh empathy takes time to build. It may not be necessarily the right uh the right tool for something that requires direct action and urgency immediately right now. We also have a lot of responsibility when we instill empathy to tend to that. It is a very powerful emotional state. And if we give people a ton of empathy and nothing to do with it, it can lead to emotional boomeranging, which, you know, we all have experienced as you see these like save the children commercials or these like adopt all the dogs, but you can't adopt all the dogs. And so you're like, well, what am I even doing with my life? And you turn the television off because you can't handle that onside of exactly. And so we have to be really careful of that, especially in today's world where people are feeling emotionally spent and overloaded, to give people empathy in the right doses and with a functional outlet for them to put their empathy so that they feel like it's being used for something productive.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

That makes me actually think of another question in the sense of you you brought up a very good point that you you need to be able to manage that as someone in the position of communicating conservation, communicating to people not doing the actual work, you have to be able to help them throttle that empathy. So it stays healthy and doesn't create this overwhelm, which is a great example. Like I can't adopt all the dogs. I want to, but I can't. So with that, then, in our line of work, and especially with what you're doing and the people who are under you and all the projects you're helping to manage and coordinate, what does it look like for those doing the work? How does someone go about fully leaning into working with whatever endangered species or threatened species, recognizing that it's not a matter of just being able to show your science and say, this is what's happening, we need to do these things instead? Because you're also up against then other organizations, other companies, whatever it might be that is causing these challenges.

SPEAKER_02 22:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

And it I know it can be overwhelming. So when it comes to that empathy, just because it's a work of passion usually for someone. What's your thoughts on that? Like that that burnout, that that loss of or not loss. It's more of a, I guess, I mean perhaps a sense of helplessness that can occur for someone doing this conservation work. What are what have been your observations and and possible solutions for those doing that kind of work?

SPEAKER_01 23:09

Yeah, I mean, this is such a hot topic right now. We we've seen um deaths by suicide rising in our field. We've seen more conversation about burnout and the need for resilience and revitalization. And especially when it feels like the broader society is working against us as well, that conservation is not mainstream quite yet. Um and so we feel like like a niche area, but at the same time, we know that this is not niche, this is survival. Uh, but we've been horrible uh conveying that to the general public. And I think, you know, that's one of the reasons I work at a zoo. And not to say that people at zoos don't feel this way. I'm sure we do uh from time to time, but I never feel alone in this work. And I think that's incredibly powerful. I mean, humans are social animals. I am a particularly social animal. And so being able to work somewhere where I have to say no sometimes to people doing amazing work just because it doesn't fit with our strategy, or I have to find a solution that's a compromise that I didn't think I was willing to make, but then getting to go outside and it sounds so cheesy, but I got into this field because I loved watching kids connect to animals. And so being able to go out and see that, even if yes, there's also like a kid who dropped their popcorn and is screaming, it's all part of the experience. And I I could put myself back in that space of being a zootine or a camp counselor and remembering how life-giving it can be to see these animals for the first time, second time. You know, I love going out and seeing people sketching our animals, photographing our animals. Um, I love seeing members because you know that they chose this place to dedicate themselves to over and over and over again. I love working with our donors because, you know, they can give their money anywhere, but they choose to give it to us. And that is so inspiring to me. So, you know, like I, for me, it's about remembering that I'm not alone. Uh, and even outside of my zoo, when I've gone through the darkest times in my career, I've had the strongest network. And I think of that like like a bank. Like I make investments in that bank every day throughout my life. I text my friends in the field, I host them for weekends at my house, I go visit them. And then when I need to make a withdrawal, there's an investment there to withdraw from. And now I'm back in the in the investing space. So putting deposits into that bank. It's also transactional, but it's the best way I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

But it's a good example. Yeah, I think this is a solid example how our we can visualize what you're meaning in that sense of that emotional bank that we sometimes hear about. And and yes, it does appear to be transactional when you talk about it that way, but it's a sense of that give and take and that balance. I also want to reflect back to what you said too. I love that you said getting out and seeing the kids reconnecting with animals. And for me, what that translates as it's like, this is the work I'm doing, though, and sometimes it gets overwhelming and to be too much almost. But then I can step outside and go, oh, yeah, this is why I'm doing it. This is why it's important to me. This is what fills me up. Yeah, and it's that balance of recognizing sometimes you need to recharge your batteries of for the work you do. And sometimes the work you're doing doesn't recharge, it drains. But the reason you do that work is because there are things out there that are tied to your work that recharge. Yeah. You know, for myself, back in the day when I was doing a lot of traveling for the San Diego Zoo and representing them, it was exhausting to be on the road every other week. Um, but while at locations like children's hospitals around the nation or other zoos and connecting people with wildlife and seeing that magic of remembering this is important, you know, seeing them remember the importance of being connected to wildlife. And then it just all I was there as a facilitator. I didn't, I you know, I didn't make that connection happen. That connection naturally happens on its own. Yeah. And that filled me back up and reminded me that yes, I'm exhausted from travel and doing all that I'm doing, but wow, I get to facilitate these things and it really recharged. So yeah, I like that you mentioned that as well.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

We are we are so fortunate to get to live. I was talking to one of my staff members because with everything going on in the world, it just feels very heavy right now. And, you know, she was saying, like, oh man, just come in and you're like, Well, here I go again at my job. And I was like, Yeah. And also I feel like we're lucky that we get to come to this job together and we get to work on something we actually really care about. And she's like, Absolutely, that's true. Like, imagine if we came to a job every day that we hated or that um we just felt like we were working to live so that we could go home and spend the like next couple hours doing our real passion. Like we are very fortunate that that's not that's not the life I lead. That's not the life. And so for us and our team, I make sure that we celebrate our successes as often as possible, even the little ones. So in our weekly meeting, tell me something that good that's going on in the world, in your world right now, tell me something you're excited about, and then sharing those with with the broader zoo community.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

I love that. Yeah. It's definitely something we have to be conscious of, absolutely have to be conscious of and remind ourselves of that. So taking it a bit further then in acknowledging that in this line of work, there can be burnout, there can be that overextension of your empathy, uh, then recognizing too the need for community, the need for social group, uh, the need for reminding ourselves this is the the positives that are happening, because this is a very heavy world right now. What would you say as far as sort of the broad stroke of conservation? What is the biggest challenge that we face in conservation right now, in your opinion? Or if you have a factual either one?

SPEAKER_01 28:53

I I would say it's our aversion to risk taking. I think I've been thinking a lot about this. Uh, you know, my PhD looked at diffusion of innovation, and I've been revisiting that concept uh lately as I've been planning out the future of conservation here in Columbus and thinking about the need for wild innovation, no pun intended, around conservation issues. Uh, because it's not that what was done before didn't work, it's that what was done before got us here. And now it's time for another solution in a rapidly changing world. And so that can only innovation only gets picked up if people are willing to take risks and if the alternatives that are being proposed offer some sort of benefit over what always has been. And so I would love to see us iterate and innovate more widely. Uh, I would love to see us think about partnerships that may not be the first ones we imagine when we think about who to partner with for these projects. Uh, I would like to see us be bolder in the solutions that we're willing to present, even if we don't nail it. And that's the problem with innovation is that everyone, you know, you'll tell people to be innovative, they'll innovate something, it won't work, and they'll be like, well, then I I think I should probably just go back to playing it safe. But that's not the point. The point is that every innovation leads to some sort of learning. And we have as in conservation, I think a very fixed mindset a lot of times about what is and isn't successful or can and can't be uh effective. And I would like to see us adopt a more flexible, dynamic and creative, honestly, way of looking at some of these problems because it's not just more animals in the wild. Like that's no longer the right, you know, that's no longer the answer to conservation's biggest issues. And so if if we can release ourselves from that like binary kind of understanding of what conservation is, what are we allowed to create uh in its stead?

SPEAKER_00 30:58

That brings me then to another thought. When you say, you know, and and I I completely agree with what you said in the sense that just the idea of like make more animals, put more animals in the wild, that is not the answer anymore. What is conservation in this modern world? What does that what does that mean when you say to somebody in the general public or even somebody within our our business of conservation and zoos and aquariums that we need to do a conservation project for this species or this area? What does that mean in the modern time?

SPEAKER_01 31:28

For me, it means creating systems where people and animals thrive together. So there's a couple key words I'm gonna pull out there, systems. I think that the systems at play, social, ecological, uh, infrastructural, if that's a word, uh, systems are are the ones that we need to tackle. I I am a behaviorist. I believe in individual action. I think individual action is massively helpful for an individual's growth and identity development. And also those should scale up to systems levels change level change. Uh and then people and animals thriving together. I mean, that's that coexistence is so critical. We would love, I'll retire from conservation or I'll I'll take a step back once I feel like there are things happening in perpetuity that allow people and animals to live in harmony. And, you know, right now people and animals live in tension and in conflict with one another in a lot of different places. Um, I think there are a lot of systems that facilitate that, like capitalism and the patriarchy and all those trifecta of fun party conversations. Um but I don't think those systems exist because they have to. I think they exist because we let them. And so as conservation now requires building a new system that you know puts animals and people as equal players on this planet.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

And the conversations I've had in that same space of everything you just mentioned, recognizing the systems in general aren't necessarily in a structural position to have benefit to wildlife, whether it is capitalism, patriarchy, where it's just all about the individual massive success, keep gaining more things, more money, whatever it might be. This is my land, I'll do what I want, etc. I often try to have a conversation when that is the attitude I'm up against, that look, we're we need to start the conversation with just talking about sustainable practices. But that's not the end of the conversation, obviously. That's not where it stops. So, in your experience and from your position, what is that starter point? Obviously, changing systems is a uh a huge structural thing. It'll take time, but I believe it takes time and it takes, it takes the individuals collectively recognizing the system needs to change. So somebody who's not in conservation doesn't necessarily see the same things you and I see in the sense of science, the lack of biodiversity, the collapse of ecosystems, if these things keep going the direction they're going. Uh, what's that conversation start or how do we start approaching, or even fair enough to say, someone listening who might be a student of zoology or biology, who's just just starting the process of their career and their life in this world? They're passionate, they know enough to know that, hey, these things need to change, but they don't necessarily have yet the skills or tools to to support those conversations that are going to be successful conversations instead of just arguments. What would be your input to somebody in that position to go, here's how you could have that or start that foster that thought process for an individual on the other end of that belief that the systems are fine as they are. I'm doing great. Don't mess it up.

SPEAKER_01 34:40

Yeah. I mean, honestly, I think you're when you're asking that question, you're starting from the hardest part. Yeah. Well, I think the most emotionally taxing part. I think, you know, I would scale us back just a little bit to think about the community as our unit of influence. We I think this goes back to your question about eco anxiety and feeling so overwhelmed with the state of these problems because we're looking at them from a global perspective, because we see the same air things happening all over the world. But really, I mean, this goes to that pithy like think local or act global, whatever. You know what I mean.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Think global, act globally. Locally, think globally. Yeah, whatever. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

But I think it is really powerful to think about your community, whatever that means to you, whether that's your physical community, whether it's an interest group, whether it's a spiritual community or a sports community or something like that, and using that as your unit of influence to practice some of the language that you may eventually use on people who are on the complete other end of the spectrum from you. Because there's, yes, you have your choir, but in the middle, you have all the people in your life who you love and care about who don't think about this on a daily basis. You know, I think about like my run club friends or my crafting friends. Like they're cool people. They, you know, have passions and interests, but environment didn't really isn't really at the top for them. So how can I fix some of the systems or introduce some of these solutions or or you know, instill some of this identity in some of those step B groups uh that maybe prime for it because they care about me, they care about what I care about, they're you know, they trust me as a resource to go to for information. And then you can scale up from there. But I think there's a you know, someone who's going to who's a big oil exec is probably not gonna be my number one go-to for influence because it's also, you know, impact versus effort. Like you're gonna have a lot more impact moving that movable middle or the people in your scope and you know, who look to you for those solutions who are primed to take action. It's just like with zoo, you know, with zoo detractors and zoo supporters and everyone in the middle. Like someone hates zoos, I'm kind of over trying to get them to like what we do. I will chip away at that if there's someone I care about or if there's someone that like I really feel like, you know, it's a worth the investment.

SPEAKER_02 37:09

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 37:09

But it's the people who say, I haven't been to a zoo since I was a kid. I don't really know how I feel about zoos anymore. That's my person. That's who I'm gonna ask to come walk around with me, come see the world through my perspective and build empathy for theirs.

SPEAKER_00 37:23

Well, speaking of then sort of your own personal experience, you answer that question there, like, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on that person. For you personally, when it comes to this line of work and when it comes to knowing everything you know, and I and what I mean by that in the sense of that you and I live in a society that does not always see things through our lens, yeah, but you know the things you see through your lens. For you personally, what is the motivating factor that keeps you going at this? I mean, you said yourself, like I'm not gonna step down or retire until I feel like these systems are in place and they're functioning on their own. So there's obviously a lot of passion motivating you, but do you know where that comes from or what might be the little flicker of flame at the bottom of that passion fire?

SPEAKER_01 38:08

I think it's people. You know, like I think about the people I care about, I think about the the communities that we've created, the love that, you know, we share within the group of us that were zoo-teens or the group of us that were camp counselors. And sure, I'm I'm one of the only ones working in this field now, but I'm carrying a torch, I'm carrying a collective passion that influenced so many people right alongside me. And still now, every time I think about how challenging this work can get, or I could be making more money doing this, that, or the other thing.

SPEAKER_02 38:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Um, first of all, I remember that my main goal in life is to have my life mean something, right? To leave this world a better place than I found it, I think is a prerogative that a lot of people can can get behind. Uh, do no harm. Uh, but I think about all the people I know who are doing really awesome work and I really want to work with them. Like I don't owe them anything, but I well, maybe I do owe them some things. But I would I really you know, what about what better life is it than one in which you get to work with amazing people doing really cool stuff all around the world? And that's that's what keeps me. I like animals, sure, but I could have found this community maybe in a different place. I just happen to find it here and I'm sticking to it.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Nice. Nice. I love that. So if someone wants to find out more about some of the programs that you're overseeing, what what can we is there a website we point them to? Is there a particular thing they can look into to find out more about? I mean, because you like I said at the beginning of this, you you threw out a big net of a lot of different stuff you are overseeing, and I'm sure that was only just the the surface of it. So where can people find out more?

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Yeah, Columbus Zoo.org and under our conservation tab. We're revamping that right now to be more up to date. Uh, so stay tuned. What's on there now is not incorrect, but it is uh our it is our best understanding of what is the current state, and we're gonna be adding future state uh pieces to that as well. So, yes, Columbus Zoo.org under our conservation tab. Even if you're in the area or or not, I know Columbus is a destination zoo for a lot of folks. Please come visit us and come out to the wilds. And um I I just think we represent our work so well on grounds, and I really appreciate that. I and so many conversations with our talented interp teams figuring out how to tell our conservation stories everywhere so that people understand them and we're approaching that with a sense of hope and optimism and an invitation to join us instead of a doom and gloom, right? You know, trying to shake people into urgency. And I really appreciate that we take that tone. Yeah. Um, I would say also following us on social media is a great, great way. Um, our social media team is awesome at sharing these stories of success. And um, I'm a very Googleable person. Uh my name is very specific. And so I've done talks on this and and have other papers and and books and things like that about empathy and and behavior that I would sh would love to share with the world.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Awesome. And so anybody who doesn't know, because I think the Columbus Zoo name is well known, the wilds, not as much. So I'm gonna just briefly before we wrap this up, I want to ask you to explain to everybody what is the wilds and where is it located in proximity to the Columbus Zoo? Because they're not the same space.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

They are not the same as the same thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:31

Sometimes I think people might be like, oh, I'm I'm here to go see the wilds and wild's here?

SPEAKER_01 41:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Wrong address.

unknown 41:36

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Um the wilds is in part indescribable, but if I had to describe it, it would be like stepping out of Ohio and into the plains of Africa or the Mojave or the Gobi Desert or one of those like vast expanses of habitat. Uh maybe you could call it a safari park if you wanted to, although I think that kind of diminishes the experience. But it is in Cumberland, Ohio. So it is uh near Zanesville, about an hour and 40 minutes away from the zoo. Uh and to visit, it's we're seasonal at the wilds. Um, so to visit, we set up tours where you get in an open-air bus and can go around to our different pastures and uh see bison and talkin and rhinos and giraffes, and and we even have a carnivore area as well with a patio and and some food and beverage there so you can watch those amazing animals. But their their habitats are massive. Like, so it really feels like you're just driving around searching for an animal and you can't say, like, oh, we're gonna go over here and definitely see the baby Persian onger, you know, you're gonna have to search for it just like you would if you were on Safari.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

Excellent. So if someone goes to the ColumbusZoo.org website, they can also click on the tab for the wilds, I assume.

SPEAKER_02 42:55

Absolutely find out more information about that.

SPEAKER_00 42:57

Awesome.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Yep, yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

And I do want to jump back real quick to something you said, just as I said the website to remind me, you had said that the conservation tab isn't is gonna go through through some updates. And I loved how you said it though. What's on there is what we know right now, and as we learn more, which implies as we learn more, we we update. And I think often in our current times, blowback we get sometimes in the world of conservation, biology, zoology, science is that oh, well, 10 years ago you guys said this, and now you say this, and none of it's true. You're just lying to us. Scientists don't know. And and to the way you phrased it was so good. It's like this is what we know right now, and it will update as we learn more, because that's the nature of science. So I just want to point out. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 43:43

That's that's what it means to learn and grow. I I I don't have all the answers. I don't, I don't think you do. I don't think anybody does. Right. Uh but what we need are not answers, we need people who are willing to ask the questions.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Yeah. And that's where I always love to lean into that concept that we have to remain curious.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

Always. No matter how much schooling or work we do, we always have to remain curious. So we're open to the fact that we don't know everything. Yeah. And we have the opportunity to learn more if we just remain curious.

SPEAKER_02 44:12

So that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 44:13

That's awesome. Is there anything we haven't covered yet before we wrap up? Because I mean, there's just so much to unpack with all you have done and all you do. So I want to make sure we don't skip anything you want to mention in this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 44:23

I don't think so. You know, I'm excited to see what the future is going to hold for us, both here in Columbus and across the zoo community and across conservation writ large. I think for us, what we are really excited about is investing in real partnerships with people that are not fully transactional. Money may be part of it, but they're an actual exchange of ideas, thought partnership, uh, other skill sets. We're just in networked approaches. So one person, one group cannot do everything by themselves. And some of the best ideas and the most impactful groups don't have a website or a social media presence. They're known to the people in their community who work with them. So we are relying on some key partners to help us find those shining stars in their community and lift them up and elevate that innovative thinking. Uh and then this comprehensive approach to conservation that's not about the species, but is about the system, the s the people and the animals and the nature, the natural landscapes, all working in harmony. So I think if we stick to those core tenets, we'll find some pretty cool stuff along the way.

SPEAKER_00 45:29

Excellent, excellent. I agree, I agree. I love that. And and I really, really appreciate the way you present it. It's it's nice to hear in that format of it's systematic, it's human, it's not just it's not always something clickable you can see on social media, which of course in our world today, sometimes it's the best way to get the work out there in front of people, but not everybody doing the really impactful work has time to get on social media and create content. So I appreciate you also bringing that up. I I really do.

SPEAKER_02 45:59

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 46:00

Yeah, thank you so much for taking the time today to be here with me. Uh, if anything new or interesting comes up in your realm of conservation, please let me know. I would love to have you on again. Awesome.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Absolutely. This was so fun. Thanks for having me. And yeah, I'm sure we'll be in touch.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

And of course, thank you, dear listeners, for joining me here on Animals Nature and you being a part of this curious odyssey that we have going on. Yeah, I do want to point out, real quick, a quick reflection back to the conversation with Kathy Ewan. I really appreciate how she showed us and reminded us all that conservation is not a simple thing. It is complex. There are so many different moving parts and people involved. And I really liked how she talked about the need for innovation in the sense that often we look at a problem or our society wants us to look at a problem as to this is what caused the problem. So this is the solution. And I will say, in my experience, there has been a lot of that, not just in conservation, but just how humans approach things in general. And conservation is so complex. Humans are complex, our ecosystems are complex. The problems we find today that are challenging the ecosystems and our wildlife and us humans, because we're all tied together, these are these are complex things. It's not just, well, this caused a problem, so this will fix it. Some of them might be that easy, but I think more and more we're finding that's not the case. So I really appreciate how she helped remind us that that is our situation. It is complex and we need innovation and reevaluating how we approach and think of these things, looking at the systems in place that have fostered these challenges and how maybe we need to change the systems, not just solve the problem of conservation, if you will. So that's pretty cool. I appreciate that she did that. And of course, if there's anything she brought up in the conversation that you found interesting or a link she talked about, or anything that was brought up in general, I'll have all the information down below. Please go to the show notes, whether you're watching this on YouTube or listening on your favorite podcast player. All that information will be down below, along with my website, zoologyrick.com. And if you're interested, Animals Nature and You does have a presence on Instagram. So there'll be a link down there for the Instagram social media for Animals Nature and You. Last but not least, make sure you're following if you aren't already or subscribed. Every Tuesday, 10 minute Tuesday, which sometimes gets closer to 12 to 15 minutes. But either way, it's a solo episode where I talk about an animal that might have been brought up in a previous interview or just something that's topical in the moment. And then every Thursday we have an interview like this where we talk about someone doing some awesome work, whether it's for animals, for nature, or for humans, or all the above, because we're all connected. With that, again, thank you so much for being here. Have a good one, everybody.