Unlocking Nature's Secrets: Insights from 'Just the Zoo of Us' - Part 2

(This is Part 2 of 2)
Most people underestimate how deep their connection to nature really is—and how the smallest action can reshape our relationship with the environment. Imagine discovering that your passion for animals and wildlife could be your pathway to influencing conservation, even if your career path didn’t follow the traditional route.

Join host, Rick Schwartz for an engaging conversation with Ellen Weatherford, host of the popular podcast 'Just the Zoo of Us,' as she shares her journey from wildlife enthusiast to podcast creator, her insights on neurodivergence, and the importance of connecting with nature and community. Discover how curiosity, passion, and understanding ecosystems can inspire conservation and personal growth.

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Links mentioned in this episode:
Just the Zoo of Us
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Just the Zoo of Us on FB


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Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

0:01

Welcome back to Animals Nature and You. This is part two of the interview I had with Ellen that came out yesterday. Part one was yesterday. If you haven't listened to it or watched it, I recommend go back and do that first. It'll make a lot more sense. But this, we're gonna pick up pretty much where we left off yesterday, with the episode ending as we go into the discussion about the importance of exploring your own backyard ecosystems, your own habitat and environments, what's out there. She talks about tide pooling and everything else, and that leads us to a whole nother tangent and talking about other things. It is a great conversation, just like part one. So I'm really glad you're here. And if for any reason you you just you can't you just need to get a hold of her, I'll have all of the links down below on how to get a hold of Ellen, how to find her podcast, and everything else. So with that, we're gonna roll right back into the conversation. I and you know, I do a lot of trying to, you know, get out in nature. I I have the benefit of living in a beautiful place. I live in in um western Washington and have access to a lot of gorgeous trails, also a lot of really awesome zoos in our area, great aquariums, and uh we have the benefit of go I get to uh a lot of times with our listeners, like people from like our Discord or people from our social media or something, um, we'll set up things like tide pooling days where we'll all meet up and there'll be like a really low tide at the beach and we'll all meet up and go tide pooling together, which is really, really fun because like as as much as I can sit down and do notes and like learn really in-depth stuff about animals all over the world, because you know, our episodes are kind of gonna be about, you know, one day it'll be about like sand cats from Africa, or one day it could be about like whales from the Arctic, or one day it could be about like a weird bug from like Indonesia or something like that. But then I get out into you know the tide pools and I'm looking at some sea invertebrate that lives like 20 minutes from my house, and I'm like, I couldn't even tell you what like phylum this belongs to. I have I've never seen this in my life. But the people that like listen to the show and come out tide pooling with us, or like naturalists that we just happen upon as we're out and about, they'll be like, Oh, I could tell you more about this, and like then I get to learn more about the animals that actually live around me. And then that that just feels really great, getting to like because you do have to kind of take off your educator hat and become and put on the educated hat. Like you have to get into like receiving knowledge mode. Like it's and it feels really good to be the one receiving the knowledge. Well, and that's it's so true. That's one thing that I I just try to remind myself all the time, and I say it a lot on this podcast and on social media, is that that always hold on to that bit of being curious, always hold on to to to just not thinking you know what's going on. Not even if like I can identify this this snake or this bird or whatever, be curious enough to go, okay, I I know, but also what can I learn right now? And or just in general, like you said, take off the educator hat altogether. I want to ask you to, and uh maybe it's a little shift in the direction energy of the the interview right now, but you since you brought up doing these uh tide pooling events, doing group gatherings, going out into your own backyard nature. I wanted to ask you, do you find and and you kind of mentioned like you talk about these species from around the world, and there's there's a sea slug that you can't identify. Um that's all the sea slugs. All the sea slugs. That's Gary, there's Julie, uh, different identification. Um but for you, taking off that educator hat, coming across naturalists, what's the value in getting out in your own quote unquote backyard ecosystem and connecting there? I think a lot of the value for me is in literally just logging off and touching grass. You know what I mean? Like as someone who is perhaps chronically online, and so much of this job involves being online, which I think on the one hand is incredibly valuable and it's kind of a great power, great responsibility sort of thing, right? Right. I've built my career on social media. Like I would never have gotten to do what I'm doing now without, you know, working Twitter, working TikTok, working Instagram. Like social media has absolutely gotten me where I am, and also huge and also uh it can be incredibly taxing on mental health. Uh and it just I do feel like spending too much time in virtual spaces makes you lose touch with what's real and like in your immediate area. So for me, getting out and like going hiking, going on a trail, going to the beach and going tide pooling is a great reminder of like what is actually physically happening around you and what I don't know, things like what kind of discourse is purely online, you know what I mean? Sure. Sure. Like what is what's actually real around me and what is like social media algorithm driven, you know, dread that I don't really need to be dreading, uh, that I can probably it it and it is helpful helpful to also get out and like just meet people in your community and talk to actual real people when you're interfacing with each other face to face and not just like anonymously uh, you know, trash talking each other about the internet. Like I feel like there's a huge value for me personally in just logging off and touching grass and like grounding yourself in where you actually live and what's real around you, uh, so that you don't get too. I also have a in recent years have tended towards anxiety. And I do actually have like a an app blocker on my phone that like limits my access to social media. Uh, and that is often a good reminder of like, hey, go outside. Hey, hey, go outside real quick. Go, go get some fresh air, go breathe, uh, go get some air that hasn't been cycled through your house a million times, like go uh go experience the sky above you. Um, but also I do feel like I use iNaturalist a lot. Um, I don't know if people listening are familiar with iNaturalist. It's been talked about on this show before, so I hope they are. And if not, go check it out, please. It is for in one way, like it can, if you do have the type of brain that benefits from like gamifying things, it can actually encourage you to like spend more time outside and spend more time like exploring and stuff because there is that part of your brain that's like, I gotta like finish my polka decks, basically. Like, I gotta get more observations, get more species, make the number go up, which I do think is valuable. Not, I mean, I don't want you to get lost in it. I don't want you to like spend your entire hike glued to your phone, right? Because you're like, you know, so focused on on filling out the app and everything. But what is valuable about it about it for me is building familiarity. So if I see, like, oh, there's this weird little like beetle that I keep seeing around. I've seen the same beetle over and over again. I don't actually know what the beetle is. Throw it up on iNaturalist. iNaturalist tells me what that beetle is, and then maybe next time I'm out and about, I see it and I'm like, oh, I know what that is. That's that's my little friend. Um, and it it just is helpful for me to like um it also because I feel like I've developed familiarity with the little things around me, like it's easy to look around and see like, you know, beetles and slugs and you know, little songbirds and stuff like that that kind of blend into the background. But when you take the time to like get to know what they are, be able to at least identify them generally, like maybe that's a pine borer, or maybe that's a I don't know, a click beetle or something like that. What makes that really fun is when you go somewhere else and then you see a new one and you're like, whoa, hold on. Whoa, hold on. Who's that dove? I've never seen that dove before. Whereas like everybody around else around you is like, yeah, sure, whatever, it's a dove on a fence, but like I'm having a fantastic time because I'm like, this is a brand new dove. I've never seen this dove. It can make the mundane a lot more exciting. Absolutely, yeah. It can make like the everyday things that would otherwise fade into the background like so much more vibrant and alive when it's not just like if you can look at a field and you're not just seeing like grass and trees, you're actually seeing like wild rye, and you're seeing like California poppies, and you're seeing, you know, red cedars, and you're seeing like when I feel like when you can understand the diversity of like the ecosystems around you, it gives you a better appreciation for the places that you go. Because then you'll be like, Well, hold on. I've never seen when I was in San Diego, I was driving, I was nearly unsafe to drive because I was looking around like I've never seen that tree before. Like, oh, trees. Okay. I was the eucalyptus tree. And I'm like looking out the window, which is a venture. Because I'm like, whoa, what's that? Um like you know, I don't know. So I feel like it makes the mundane and the everyday a lot more exciting. There's this concept I learned about a few years ago called plant blindness. Oh, yeah. It happens with birds too, yes, absolutely. Yeah, bird blindness, plant blindness. That's right. But explain it to my audience. Yeah, so the idea, and I I learned about this in the concept of that educators were like basically handing paper to little kids and asking little kids to like draw a plant. And all of the little kids would basically draw very vague, general, like the I the concept of like a tree or grass or something without any defining characteristics that you would see on an actual tree or on an actual like flower or something. And the idea was that like kids can identify at the general concept level what a plant is, but then if you ask them any more specifics than that, nobody knows. Like, no people generally do not know the difference between like one type of tree and another type of tree, which I do think I definitely suffer from. I mean, I'm not great at IDing plants. I can get you in the ballpark, but that's usually it. Uh, but I I have spent some time on hikes with my kids actually like taking pictures and putting IDs up on iNaturalist and trying to figure out what these actual plants are. Um, to where now when we go out for a hike, I'll sometimes pop quiz my older kid. I'll be like, hey, what's that? And he knows he remembers some of them. He remembers things like sword ferns, like the you know, Pacific sword fern. That's a huge or it was called a western sword fern out here. They're huge out here. And so he'll be like, Oh, that's a sword fern, or like, oh, that's like this kind of hemlock tree or something like that. So, or this a big leaf maple, you know. And so it does make it make the walks a lot more interesting. Because if you're just on a hike and you're walking around and you're like tree, tree, tree, tree, tree, tree, tree, that's super boring. I could understand why people do not find that very interesting and engaging because you're just like, it's a bunch of trees. But if you are instead looking out there and being like, okay, we've got some maple trees, we've got some big cedar trees, we've got some fir trees, it just adds a lot more texture to the experience. And it's it's like the seasoning on a dish, I feel like. Like it just makes it a lot more interesting to be in. I remember hearing, and I wish I really wish I would have like copy and pasted the link to this video because I can't find it. But I remember there was a naturalist who was saying it is a lot like the difference between walking through the airport versus walking through a room of people you know. The sensation of feeling like you belong and that you're amongst uh safe people. Yeah. And I was like, Oh my gosh. Because if you can't identify the birds, the plants, and the trees, it yeah, there's sort of this anonymity as you walk through that space. When I walk through an airport going from security to my gate, I don't feel any connection to any of these people. There's a kid screaming, there's somebody late for their flight, whatever it might be, someone just spilled their coffee. I don't feel the need to go help that kid or help the person clean up their coffee or help brush that person to their gate because there's there's that sense of anonymity. I'm in my bubble. I'm surrounded by people, but put me in a room full of people that I know and love, and if there's a kid crying, I'm gonna see if I can help out. If there's someone who spilled their coffee, I'm gonna offer help, clean it up, get him a new cup of coffee, you know. Right. And and I feel there's a similarity to that when the when when he stated that, it's like I I get that. And and I experienced that recently myself in that I had to move across the neighborhood, which is about probably a 900 foot elevation change, which doesn't seem like much, but here in San Diego, the way our ecosystem is, that much of an elevation change, even just a few miles away, can create a very different experience when you're outside. I saw this in San Diego. Even from like a couple miles, it's a completely it's like a different planet. Yeah, it well, it we we are. San Diego County is the most diverse county when it comes to wildlife and nature on the entire United States. I I I saw it in person, and seeing it in person is like, oh, oh, you're like turning around looking like, did I go through a portal? Right, exactly. Or the you know, it could be 10 degrees difference from you know five miles that way versus five miles the other way. I I remember I saw you I do a lot of trail running. I love being outside, obviously, duh. Um, and I knew the region that I was in very well. I knew the plants, I knew the animals, I knew the birds, I mean like the roadrunner, we were best friends, I knew the lizard species. I knew every rock and every plant. And then when I moved, I'm like, okay, well, there's trails just this direction, you know, half a mile away from where I live now, and is down in a canyon with a creek, which is very different than the hills I was in. And I'm like, what are these plants? And it felt I felt very out of place. I felt this weird sense of homesickness for the place that's just a couple miles away that's in the hills, that I felt so familiar with. But now I've been here almost a year, and I have gone through the process of identifying all the plants and getting to know the different species and the different trees that grow by the creek versus the ones that grow a couple hundred yards from the creek. And it feels like that familiarity and that home of getting to learn and know those species and the value of doing that. So I I can the point of sharing that story is I can understand what you how you answered the question I gave, which is what's the value in getting out in your own ecosystem instead of just looking at the amazing species of Africa or Asia or Australia or or wherever. Yeah. Because we do we have amazing species right in our own backyards that we tend to just take for granted because it's just a bird. Yeah. But when you when you break them down, then and also I I moved a few years ago completely to a brand new place. I moved from Florida uh over to Washington. So a little bit different, yeah. Clear across the continent to like nearly two polar opposite types of climate and ecosystem, you know, everything's different. Uh the the type of climate, the the temperature ranges, the seasons are different, everything is so different. And there have been some surprises as to what is not different. So things like ospreys and great blue herons, uh, things like that, are like, oh, you're here too. Hey, buddy, I remember you. But I did just uh last week as we're recording this, so when this goes up, it'll be longer ago. But I had to unexpectedly travel back to Florida. Um, and while I was in Florida, it was a family thing going on that luckily was resolved and was fine. So I I had some time in Florida to um go to some nature preserves and go, uh I got to go to the Seaside Seabird Sanctuary in St. Petersburg, Florida, uh, and go see some seabirds and go to the beach. And um I noticed that like having a better understanding of like your surroundings and the plant life around you, and not just the plant life, but even like the differences in the soil. Like the soil is different, right? Like, even that made me appreciate going out for like a two-mile, you know, nature walk in Florida, because when I lived in Florida, I was like, okay, this is just what's around, you know, it wasn't a huge deal to me. I was like, I'm gonna see grackles and I'm gonna see, you know, fish crows, or I'm gonna see, you know, brown anoles, they're everywhere. Um, and you can kind of like they can kind of blend into the background. They're not super interesting, but like because now I've gotten so used to a completely different supporting cast of characters. Now when I'm in Florida, I'm having the time of my life walking around and being like, there's my palmettos, like, hey, there's my longleaf pines, like there's my, there's my grackles that I don't have where I live now. Um, and then also I noticed that I I was in a part of Florida that while I didn't spend my entire life in, um, was it's where my dad's family lives, and I would spend summers at my dad's uh family. My dad has since passed away. Um, but I was visiting like his family, and I noticed that there are very distinctive bird calls in this particular area of Florida. So things like fish crows, which have a very different sound than typical American crows. Um, they have more of like a like a R, kind of like the nasally sort of sort of call. It sounds unlike any other type of crow. Um, so the fish crows, the grackles have a very like grating sort of sound that they make. It's almost like, I don't know, I think it sounds like laser beams. Um but like the the cardinals, which we don't have cardinals in the Northwest, and even just like hearing the sounds that I so, so, so distinctly associate with being, those are the background ambient sounds of like childhood summers visiting my dad, staying at my grandparents' house, like really, really positive, happy memories that even just hearing those bird calls like took me right back to. It was like very, very like you know, the feeling of like when you smell a smell that like smells like your grandparents' house or something like that, and it feels like you just like travel through time. Like, that's how I feel when I hear like fish crows or or morning doves, because my grandma had a a nest of morning doves outside of her house. And so, like every morning I would wake up hearing like morning doves calling literally right outside the window. So when I would hear the and I was I was back at the same house and I heard the morning doves again, and I was like, oh, that's the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So I feel like just I feel like just the nature of that area and and also not just the nature, but like understanding it, like knowing being able to hear that sound and knowing that's a fish crow, that's a grackle, that's a morning dove, like gave me a deeper appreciation for like these are the sounds that like made up my childhood. Like these are the sounds that mean a lot to me. Um, so I felt like I had a deeper appreciation for that stuff because I understood the nature around it more. Florida has also struggled a lot with overdevelopment of their coasts. They have overbuilt the marshes along the coast, mangroves, things like that. They have overdeveloped it and suffered dearly for it because every year there's a hurricane coming. And those marshes and those mangroves and all of those have been storm barriers. Like that is why the inland Florida normally shouldn't be completely obliterated by hurricane, but because you have that barrier, you have that, like, you know, a mangrove can stand, you know, rising water. They're like, great, sounds awesome. More water for me. Or a marsh is like awesome. You know, you can flood a marsh and they'll they'll be all right. But you have you need those like miles of marsh so that your inland doesn't get completely flooded and wrecked. But when you've got you've overdeveloped and you've gotten rid of all those marshes and those mangroves and stuff, you're left with nothing in between you and the brunt of this hurricane. And so now you're seeing like people that live in Florida, people that don't even live like on the coast, people that live like further inland now are seeing like more and more damage from storms like every year because all of that land, all of those natural barriers and all those natural safeguards are gone. So I feel like people I mean, I'm saying this because like I have family who they their homes were destroyed in a hurricane, even though they've lived there for many, many years, and now that the impact of storms is only getting worse and worse because Florida is largely not giving the respect and care that it should to its coasts, like you're seeing people's lives being impacted by that more and more. So, I mean, coming from Florida, you know, it's because I had I left Florida because I had such a complicated relationship with like I don't know, the entire sociopolitical climate of Florida, I would say. Sure. Very complicated relationship with it. Of course, I also re recognize it has some of the most incredible biodiversity in the country. It is gorgeous. Where else can you see, you know, alligators and crocodiles in the same place? Uh while I was in Florida just last week, I did see a wild gopher tortoise just walked right by me. Nice. Not that many places in America where like a a big old tortoise will a wild tortoise will just walk right by you while you're on a walk. Um manatees, dolphin. We saw dolphins. We saw dolphins, and that like wasn't that interesting. A pot of dolphins swam by us at the beach and it was like an afterthought because in the same trip, a a magnificent frigate bird float flew over our head and it and a black skimmer like flew right across the water in front of us. So like some of the most incredible biodiversity in the world, uh, and also complicated relationships with some of the people in charge of the place. Well, and then that complicated relationship also then you look at what you mentioned earlier about the loss of the marshes and the mangroves. You have all that diversity of life, yet it's not fully respected or appreciated by those who are making decisions on how those ecosystems are treated. And I'm like, how could you grow up here and not like have that deeply like rooted? Of course, I know a lot of the problem is that a lot of the people making those decisions did not grow up in Florida. Well, there's that too. Sure. They come down there and don't really care. They're just they're just seeing, you know, a fancy beach and waterfront property, right? They're seeing gotta make the line go up. But if you didn't grow up there, you don't see like, oh, well, you know, we need these marshes and we need these forests and we need these like coastal ecosystems that are that are like our lifeline. We need that. Yeah, it's true. It's true. And I think people like you and myself and and those that are a part of our community and our audience are in that same boat where it's like, well, wait a minute, why aren't we paying attention to this stuff? So again, it goes back to the value, I think, of your podcast and and the work that educators in general do. It's that how can we meet people where they are and and help raise awareness, spark that curiosity? Because I know you have mentioned to me before, your guests on your podcast aren't just animal people. You you said something you got a mus musician on before that Yeah, we've had this great conversation. And so I think that's comedians like that. Right. And and that's part of it is like re not just talking to people who care about animals, but let's reach out and engage with people who do live a different life, who do have a different passion and obsession, but also can find interest or knowledge or appreciation for our passion and obsession. So that's that's where it's like, you know, we can talk about Florida and what you've experienced or what you've seen firsthand. And but then what's the other side of that? And the other side of that is I think is the work that you're doing. It's what you're doing with the podcast where you are finding ways to keep, like I said before, like beating, beating our drum, you know, of what we're passionate about, what's interesting, why it's important, but then finding ways to reach people who aren't beating that same drum, but don't mind listening to our drum and being a part of our drum circle for a little bit to just keep that analogy going. That's I don't know where I'm going with that. But but I just think I think that's something that's really important. Yeah. And I appreciate people like yourself, you know, uh other podcasters I've had on uh my podcast, other people doing the work we're doing. Yes, we want to interview conservationists and animal people and and those doing the work, but also let's let's get creative with our our sharing of our curiosity. And I think it goes back to everything we've talked about so far about getting to know your own ecosystem, getting to know the fun facts about some obscure animal in a foreign country and why they're important, do why it's important to make sure we don't just get rid of all of our mangroves and marshes and everything in between. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of what I try to uh emphasize when we're talking about conservation stuff in the show is like the interconnectedness of how like if you because I know a lot of times people who work in conservation can often be frustrated by the idea that, like, oh, there's this one like charismatic species, right? Sure. Something that's cute and popular that people pay attention to. The panda. Um, but in Florida, you get this too with like manatees or with like Florida Panthers or stuff like that, animals that are very charismatic and maybe aren't like that common in those places. Well, Florida manatees have had a big comeback, but like panthers, for example, pretty rare in Florida. Um but I try to emphasize like, okay, it's not just about the charismatic animal. Like when the charismatic animal can be the face of the operation, right? But like I I use this phrase for literally everything, but like a rising tide lifts all ships, or like any efforts that are going to protect like manatee habitat is also going to be benefiting all of the other species that live in the manatee's habitat. So, like, or a panda, you know, efforts to protect a bamboo forest in China is not going to only benefit the panda. There's a lot of other animals that live there. So, like, I I don't know, I don't mind like using the cute and cuddly charismatic animals as like the Trojan horse almost of like, look, isn't it cute? Don't you want to learn more about this? Oops, there's conservation in there. Forgot to tell you about that. Um, and by the way, we just saved a bunch of reptiles, amphibians, and insects and birds because we saved the panda. Yeah, like by the way, let's talk about like amphibians that live in the forest or something like that. Like while we're here. Right, exactly. Yeah. It's that gateway drug. I know. Sometimes I do feel like you need to like there needs to be a little uh a little candy trail that's gonna you need a candy trail that's gonna lead you to the the harder to digest stuff. Well, absolutely. And I think it's part of that too, is it leads to more curiosity, it leaves to more aha. When you can finally, when you can say someone's someone's obsessed with tigers or someone's obsessed with pandas or manatees or whatever, you can share how that animal fits into the ecosystem and what it benefits from the the plant, the mangroves. How do the mangroves you know protect it? And you can offer up those opportunities to create curiosity around what they're excited about, the megafauna or whatever it might be. And sure, they may still glom on only to their megafauna, but they're gonna know a little more, or all of a sudden they're gonna go further on down. I interviewed somebody early on uh back in January. She had no idea that she was gonna be so obsessed about plants. She started taking some naturalist classes on the side, and all of a sudden she took a botany class, and now she's leading hikes, showing people and educating people about the native plants in Northern California. And but for her, it was I I didn't get into this for botany. I had no clue I'd be interested in botany, but that that's what she's doing. And I I love that thread of curiosity through, yes, I like hiking, and all of a sudden, boom, I like manatees. All of a sudden I'm protecting mangroves, you know? And and everything about California. Yeah, it does. It does. It's like the thing about like uh there's something in your brain that activates that makes you care about birds, and once you hit like 30. Right? Exactly. The birder gene kicks in. Yeah, it activates like a sleeper agent or something like that. Okay. I do unfortunately have to wrap this up. We jokingly started this conversation with, oh, you know, I do have time. I warned you explicitly I was gonna be like this. For for those of you listening and watching, today is Endangered Species Day, and I have a Zoom with a bunch of second graders coming up in just a matter of minutes. So I have to wrap this up. I'm sorry. It is scheduled. I have to wrap this up. So before we go, Ellen, where can people find you? You talked about your social media presence and everything else. Give give me everything, and of course I'll have everything in the show notes for for everyone to click on, but give them the verbals too. Absolutely. Uh just the zoo bus can be found on the Maximum Fun Network, which is at maximumfun.org. Uh, we are available on wherever you get your podcast. So however you're however you are listening to this, uh, go into your search bar. You can type in just the zoo bus. I promise you'll find it. If you don't, let me know. I'll put it on there. Uh we're also on social media. I am most active on Instagram, Discord, a little bit on Blue Sky 2. I have personal profiles on there too, if you want to follow the other stuff that I do. Um, I have a book that's gonna be releasing later this year. Uh, it should be wrapping later this year. So keep an eye out for that. So excited. Um, yeah, so uh follow me on my tag is usually Elks Needle uh on any social media, but uh I'll make sure to have links available so that anyone can follow through. Excellent, excellent. I'll have everything down in the show notes below. Also, Rick's gonna be on an upcoming episode of Just the Zoo of Us. Um if you're looking for a place to start, it's always it's always nice to have a warm handoff. Exactly, exactly. It's a lovely conversation. And I don't doubt before this year is up, I'm probably gonna have you back on because I still have questions I wanted to ask you that we didn't forgive to. Unfortunately, this is what talking to me is like. We're gonna talk about a lot and nothing that you planned. I love it. Well, see, this is I I I know I've I said I need to go, and I do have nine minutes out now. But I love the conversation with you because a lot of the conversations that I do have with guests, it's very specific to how they got into it, why they're doing it, why it's important, or whatever the topic might be. Talking with you is yeah, obviously it's not sitting down with an old friend and and and just having a conversation, but it's all related still to how nature and ecosystems and animals impact us. And again, I'm gonna bring it back full circle to animals, nature, and you. It's called that for a reason. The you is all of us, and there's the connection we all have. And I love the fact that I can sit here and talk for almost an hour and a half with you uh about this stuff and still feel like the conversation is far from over. So thank you so much for taking the time to being to being. Well, thank you for being. But thank you for taking the time to be on the show. Can't stop being. And I don't want you to. I please don't. Please don't. You know what they say? Always leave them, always leave them wanting more. And I we have don't. Well, you've left me wanting more. So either way, I don't know if the audience. You might be bored. Well, thank you, Rick. It's been a delight. I'm so glad. Thank you so much for having me. I've had a wonderful time and can't wait to have another wonderful time. Perfect. Excellent. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. And of course, thank you, dear listeners. I appreciate you being here and joining me on this Curious Odyssey as we learn more about animals, nature, and of course, you, us humans, and the connections we all have, the connections we have to nature, the connections we have to animals, to science, and everything else. This conversation with Ellen reminded me very much about what this community is growing into and being. We come from different worlds, we come from different experiences, but as I have been shown over and over again, there is something about that connection to nature and animals that draws us in and really reminds us who we are. As a living creature and human on this planet, we share this space not only with all of this awesome wildlife and ecosystems and habitats, but with others as well. We talk about one thing that just sticks in my mind is how we got on the tangent of neurodivergency and the the different, the diversity, the uniqueness of what that means. It's different for everybody, but there are similarities also in shared experiences. And with that, the thing that even if you don't fall under the neurodivergent blanket, if you will, there's still shared experiences and moments we all have. And discussing nature, discussing wildlife and science, and all of the things around that, I think helps remind us of that both complex and simple experience of being human. And I just want to say thank you. We are at the beginning of June right now, and over the last few months, as this podcast was launched in January, it has slowly grown, but it has grown consistently. You keep showing up, you keep sharing these episodes, you keep letting me know that you're enjoying it, and I appreciate it tremendously. It means so much to me. This is my passion project. This is not a business, it's not making me money. It is a passion project, and it's fun to meet like-minded people, heart-centered people, people who have an interest and care for animals and nature, and also us, us humans, who are sharing this space. So thank you for being here. I appreciate that so very much. If you haven't already, make sure you subscribe or follow this account, this podcast, wherever you're listening or watching, so you don't miss any of the upcoming episodes. We have 10-minute Tuesdays solo episodes every Tuesday where we talk about a particular species or something that's topical in animals and nature and people. Then every Thursday we have great interviews, like this interview with Ellen, where we talk to somebody doing awesome work, whether it's a podcaster, a filmmaker doing documentary films, somebody actively doing conservation in the wild somewhere, or someone who's spearheading multiple conservation projects from a zoo-centered area and everything in between. In fact, we even have an episode coming up later this year where we're talking to someone about pet therapy and really diving into that concept of how animals help calm us and center us. So don't miss that. You gotta make sure you follow. If you want, Animals Nature and You is also on Instagram. I have a little account there that's been growing over the these last few months. Feel free to join us there if you want, but not, you're not required by any means, of course. With that, too, all of Ellen's links and the links to her podcast, just the zoo of us is down below in the show notes. My information, zoologyrick.com is my website, all of my social media down there as well. So you're welcome to check that out. But I'm gonna wrap it up. We've had a great conversation with Ellen. Two parts, super fun, really excited. Oh, and guess what? Next week, next Thursday, the guest may or may not be somebody that I used to do podcasting with. You may or may not know him from the work he does. It's gonna be a good one. I'm super excited. Okay, but that's enough of a teaser. I'm just gonna wrap it up. Have a good one, everybody.