Bird Behaviorist, Zookeeper, and Now Spokesperson: Marco Wendt's Conservation Journey

Join host Rick Schwartz as he reunites with former cohost Marco Wendt as they explore wildlife conservation, bird personalities, and the importance of collaboration in zoos and conservation efforts across borders. Discover insights from decades of experience, including work with cassowaries, bird behavior, and overcoming burnout in the wildlife care field.

Animals, Nature, and You on IG

Links mentioned in this episode:
All About Birds - Crested Caracara
All About Birds - Southern Cassowary

Find Marco Here:
Marco on IG
Marco on TikTok

Find Rick here:
ZoologyRick.com

Rick's social media stuff...
Instagram
YouTube
Facebook
Threads
BlueSky



Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:06

I'm Rick Schwartz, educator, public speaker, and all-around curious guy. Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I have worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature, and You, a podcast that explores a connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome to another episode of Animals, Nature and You. I'm so glad you're here, especially for this episode, because I have a surprise guest, a secret guest. Now, perhaps from the title of the episode you might know who it is, or perhaps if you saw the thumbnail on YouTube, you might see who it is. But I will say this, I'm not going to read a bio because we give it all away, but I'm going to tease a little. Excuse me, goodness. I admire this person tremendously. I have known him for a very long time. I remember seeing him in the early years of our careers when he was a bird trainer and bird behaviorist and doing a presentation. Not only was his presentation style incredibly good, but his work with the animals. Over the years, our careers at different facilities, but we still would cross paths. I would see his work and admire it. And then I stepped into the role of being a spokesperson for the organization we were at. And he, as a Spanish speaker and incredibly good presenter, would go with me many times when we would do Spanish speaking television, because I I don't I don't speak Spanish. I have a hard enough time with English, and that's not even a joke with my dyslexia and apraxia and everything else. It's it's not a joke. So I got to see him in that space as well. Not only as someone who cares for animals, works with animals, works with people, but then as presenting and educating. And over the years our paths kept intertwining more and more and I got to mentor him into the ambassador role. Then we got to work together as co-hosts for three seasons on a podcast. And it's always a pleasure and a joy to speak with him. It is a pleasure and a joy to call him a friend. And so with that, I'm just gonna roll into the fact that we are in for a treat because we're gonna be talking about birds, we're gonna be talking about working with wildlife, we're gonna be talking about taking care of ourselves and everything that and actually taking care of others and and all that encompasses. And even that, as long as this episode's gonna be, we probably won't cover everything. So with that, I want to say, Marco, thank you so very much for taking time today to be a guest on Animals, Nature and You.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

I am so stoked right now.

SPEAKER_02 2:53

I can't wait, amigo. So for for anybody who might not know, who might have joined Animals and Nature and U after its inception and after it came out in January, prior to that, Marco and I were co-hosts on an award-winning podcast for many, many seasons. And prior to that, we worked together for many, many years representing wildlife and animals and conservation all over media and everywhere else. And I just I'm so excited that although we're not working together anymore, to have you on the show, Marco.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Oh, no, thank you, dude. It's such an honor to be here with this new project. And it's it's oh man, I can't even, I don't even know where to begin. I'm so excited. I mean, what you had mentioned earlier, our history, right? I mean, like you had said, people people may not know who I am, but you know, but I am a native San Diego and I've always loved wildlife, representing my not only Latino community, queer community, and all the conservation work that I've done here locally in San Diego. Um, you know, I'm sure many know, but you've had the role yourself as a wildlife ambassador for San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance. Uh amazing experiences, but there's also a lot of work I do uh in Mexico in particular, uh, where my family's from. I'm really stoked about that. So I can't wait to talk about all of it. And of course, um three words birds, uh birds, and birds, right? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:09

Yes, I'm doubting it. I think that might come up, you know.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Uh, I'm ready. I don't know, maybe. I mean, I got the mug, it's already ready to go. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

For those of you who are not watching this on YouTube, he's got a mug that's loaded up with birds, and it says, I just freaking love birds.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

I really do, you know, they're they're amazing.

SPEAKER_02 4:29

Well, you know, you kind of tapped on a little bit, and and I'm not sure how many people in the audience do or do not know our history and your history. So could you give us just a real quick since we didn't do that the traditional bio read into the intro, give my audience sort of a quick background as to how you got to where you are. Like what when did you start? What was it?

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Yeah, you know, so uh I'll try to shorten it, but you know, please do. I know you have a good story that's a good idea. No, but you know, I started I started uh as 16, 16 years old at the San Diego Zoo Safari Park here in San Diego, California. And I worked as an animal trainer. Back in the day, the term was animal trainer. I went from zoo keeper, and throughout all that time, you know, I did a lot of media and I would I would support you. That's where you and I first started working together. I would represent the Spanish community, we'd go on a lot of conservation trips together. But there's so years of that, uh, and it was amazing. And then I officially became the spokesperson for the the Alliance maybe about maybe two-ish, three-ish years ago, you know. So it's been a uh a whirlwind of adventures, uh feathered, furry, scaly, uh, and close to 30 years now, when I think about it, which is really wild, you know. I still I still feel like I'm 16 again, you know, starting at the Safari Park. You don't look a day over 21. So it's fine. Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

So with all that experience and all that you do and have done, and you've been a part of the Santa Cruz Wildlife Alliance for a very, very long time, like you said. I know though, because I've worked with you for so long and know you, you will take personal time and head down to Mexico to bring your knowledge and specialties to other zoos and conservation organizations in Mexico that don't necessarily have all the resources we have. And you don't just go there to do things for them, you also work with educating and training other people so they can do the work once you're gone. I would love to hear about how that started and maybe like a couple of your favorite projects you've been a part of down there in Mexico.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

Oh no, thank you, Rick. You know, uh, there's actually a person I definitely want to give props to, Yvette Kemp. Well, if I'm sure you're you're familiar with her. And I was just thinking you got to get her on the podcast, buddy, because she is epic. She is a she's a force. Uh, you know, and she grew up in Mazatlan in Mexico. So she is part of um ASAC, so the American Association of Zookeepers. There's a San Diego chapter here locally, and she uh ran or runs our international outreach committee. So it is a group of keepers. Um you know, we say zookeepers here in the alliance, you say wildlife care specialists. Well, I'll just say zookeepers this time because I think everyone knows the word zookeeper, but you know, zookeepers from all over the over the world really getting together to try to help out others. And you know, so that's what it how that's how it began, you know, actually reaching out to communities and prime particularly with that because she's um she's span fluent in Spanish, that she would begin these programs in Mexico. And she would uh at the time she was a hospital keeper for the San Diego Zoo, and I was working at the Safari Park, and she'd reach out to her colleagues, and those of us who either could speak the language, even if you couldn't, or just have the time and the willingness and the passion to share your skill set, uh, would be part of it. And that's how it began for me. And I would go to places like Parque del Nino and Ensenada, uh, it could be the Guadalajara Zoo in Guadalajara, uh, different places, Eshcaret, uh in the Yucatán, but you know, it's it's a longer conversation, but we we gotta we gotta share what we know, our experiences, our knowledge base. And I learned a lot too. So it's not really so much of like us going to another country like Mexico and like this is the way we do things there, like not at all. Like we share a unique skill set that we may apply with maybe for mine, um, bird experience heavy, right? So I would go in and maybe talk about uh castuary work and how I would manage a castuary under protected contact, which means I don't go in the habitats of how do you how do you navigate working a big bird like that uh with potential of aggression because it's a large animal when you look it up and still be able to keep it healthy and vibrant and alive and and mental faculties firing off, and you're working alongside of it in a protective setting, that scenario, you know? And speaking the language and being a spokesurgeon too, there was a unique skill set that I could offer part of the team. So I'd done that for so many years and it expanded, you know, connections, you know, make more connections, and I've done uh more individual work just on my own, actually going to different Zeus facilities in Mexico and other buddies of mine, just supporting where I can, right? I mean, we're not gonna get anywhere if we don't work together. Um, so that's what we just gotta do. So it's it's really like a no-brainer for me, you know?

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yeah, and I want to just point out, and I thank you so much for bringing it up, it it's it's all collaborative. It's yeah, you're you're vet kicking things off, getting people together, you going out there, other people going out there. And then when you're there, and and I I do recognize I implied that you're going there to teach, you're learning too. Absolutely. It's all collaborative. Totally all work together. And that's similar to when uh I've had the opportunity to go to Africa. Yes, I can bring my skill set there, but then I learn from things there and bring it back. And it's that shared information. One of the things that I always loved, the the concept that was I heard you know many decades ago about conservation and why zoos are always working together. Because uh one of the questions I used to get quite a bit as a spokesperson is like, oh, what's the San Diego Zoo's biggest competition? And applying what other zoos are we competing with? And it's like, no, no, no, we don't we don't compete, we work together. It's not like we're two products trying to make a massive profit. The goal is to educate people about wildlife, to do conservation and you know, safe uh programs properly, the safe, you know, being for the the AZA safe, uh what is it, saving animals from extinction. Yes, and it's it comes about successfully with collaborative efforts, with zoos working together, with each of us learning from each other. And I also do want to point out, too, I think there's great value in what you do bring to the table with your knowledge of bird behavior and care, but also your extensive experience with communication, which is something that I've witnessed that our culture and keeper work. We want to take care of the animals, we want to do our thing. Right, we'll communicate with each other, we get each other when it comes to animal care, but we also need that valuable piece to communicate outside the bubble of the zoo and the animal care world and conservation, so the general public can be aware of the importance of the work that's being done. So I think it's great that you can go out to different areas and and uh share what you know, but then also bring back what you've learned.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Oh, thanks, man. And you you got that spark too, amigo. And I was gonna say, not everyone feels comfortable in front of the camera, which I totally get. I know you get it, I get it. Uh, but everyone has their skill sets, right? And so I mean, coming coming out of high school, honestly, it was either gonna be like uh theater acting for me or wildlife, and I wasn't sure where I was gonna go. And there was actually a summer job that started when I was a junior in high school, and the I remember the job title. It was um an exhibit attendant for a nectar-eating animal. And I, you know, I knew the safar park a little bit as a kid, you know, but maybe visited it once or twice as a child, uh, but I really didn't know what they were talking about. I thought it was butterflies initially. And then, yeah, going through the interview, I learned it was a parrot called a lorikeet, which you and I know, but it's a it's a nectar eater. And so there was a unique experience at the time, and that's that's how it all began for me, you know. And then I I applied for the bird show, uh, which was this uh presentation, very bird heavy, 100% birds, which I'm all about. Uh, and then I remember the first day like going out on stage and doing this thing, and like I have wildlife with me, I'm presenting in front of guests, and I thought, like, oh, this is this is it, this is money for me. This is this is where I vibrate, you know. So I've been I've been rocking it out, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

And I can say too, I remember, I think even before I worked there, I remember seeing you on stage there at the bird show and just thinking, like, that is pinnacle work right there. You know, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

You were right where you belonged. It felt so right. It's like the stars aligned, you know, and what a cool experience, too. It was uh those who remember, it was a show with names. I mean, I'm gonna throw out names that people may remember, like Bruce Nadell, Lolita, this scene. Yeah, Pancho, remember? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

So was it Lolita or Pancho that was on uh the late show way back in the day? Yeah, uh both.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

I think both were on the show. Okay, well, okay, here's a little side. Yeah, exactly. So uh it's called Berwick Productions. So back in the day, the Safari Park worked with contractors for maybe putting on a presentation, right? So there was a Rare and Wild show in the beginning with North American Wildlife, right?

SPEAKER_02 12:44

Fun insight, fun insight. I did my internship there when I was in college at the Rare and Wild show. You did? Oh, I did that. Yeah, back then it would have been '93.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Wildlife, full circle, amigo. You know, they talk about six degrees of Kevin Bacon, but we can do that with Zoo. Oh, absolutely. It's like four degrees in the wildlife world. 100%. Uh oh, oh, oh, what I was gonna say. So the company was called Berwick Productions, or is called Berwick Productions. So um, if you're familiar with the movie The Birds, Alfred Hitchcock uh in the 80s, the trainer for that was named Ray Berwick. So he was an animal trainer in the 80s and he started this company. So it's a contracted show. Uh now, Sonny Block is the the representative of the organization at the time. So this the story is with Johnny Carson in the Tonight Show. Lolita was okay with everyone. Poncho, the singing parrot, did not like women. And by that, it's uh it's a longer story, but it's really it was just an experience with heavy male-oriented human beings in his environment. So he was partial to that. And there, I mean, you know, we probably could have worked the behavior of aggression away from from women, but he was very it was kind of his red flag. So Sonny uh did not go on stage with uh with Poncho. It wouldn't have been a good scene, or maybe good TV. I don't know. Not what they wanted. Not what they wanted. No, not what they want.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

No. So what when you were doing the bird show, did you have I mean I can say I worked with many, many ambassador animals. This is where this question comes from. I had my favorites. I had some that it's just a very special connection. Others, it was a good connection, but not quite like my best friend over there. You know, did you have any of that at the bird show?

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Oh, 100%. The you know, it's I've been there for 30 years. So I'm right now I'm just talking the original bird show, like, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just the original bird show as well. Yeah, as a teenager, uh, the number one for me, or name is Phoenix. Uh Phoenix is called a it was called or is a crested katakata, and that's like my my favorite bird, uh, favorite bird ever. I we talked about this before the interview, but I sent you a picture, so hopefully uh your viewers and listeners.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

I'll put that up for the those who are watching on YouTube. I'll put the picture up over the screen so they can see it.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

It's an awesome bird. And for your listeners, uh, it is a falcon. Think of a falcon the size of a red-tailed hawk, black, uh, with a red uh black crest of feathers, you know, but they're really known for a call that they do, which is why they get the name kara kada or care care if you don't roll your R's, which I'm not judging. I'm not judging, but I'm gonna roll my R's. So it's kind of the vocal they do is like a kata, and they throw the head straight back. So it's like it's a showmanship kind of bird, it's super adaptable, it acts like a vulture. So it was that for me. Crested kada kada, a vulture named Clarence, who was a scenario vulture. It's this beautiful huge. It was the first time I'd ever experienced a vulture. They're one of my absolute favorite animals of all time, and Clarence. He was uh scenario or European black vulture, they're called. They're unique for feathered eyelids and feathers on top of their feet because they live in very cold climates. And he, again, he wasn't the most friendliest, let's say, towards a lot of people. He and I had a pretty good rapport, and uh, and I just remember connecting with him, and that was amazing. Uh, and the other, I'd have to say, you know, just because of his tenacity and how popular he was with Poncho, the singing parrot, a double yellow headed Amazon, you know, but he was incredible also. So many personalities, too. It was just a really cool experience.

SPEAKER_02 15:58

And that's one thing I want to ask about, too, because I I do know this and I know you know, but I think it's worth repeating. A lot of times people think birds are just birds. And well, parrots, parrots are super smart, so I guess they're that that's different. And crows, you know, they're well known for being smart, so I guess that they can have personalities. You have worked with so many different species across the board. Share with my audience about bird personalities.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Oh my, where how do I beekin? You know, and I one let me say one thing. No shade to all the humans out there who maybe don't really understand the birds, the reptiles, the insects of the world. Like, I get it, right? I mean, we're all mammals, and it's easier for us to identify with another mammal, right? It it could be uh a big squishy panda, uh, I don't know, maybe a baby giraffe, a puppy dog, you know, there's attributes of the physicality of a mammal that we uh biologically even connect with, you know, the the bigger ears as a baby, the bigger eyes, you know. Uh it makes sense. Uh for me though, it started with with dinosaur loving as a kid, you know, and to birds are modern-day dinosaurs. And but these animals, they can express everything that a human and a mammal can express or any other mammal can express. We just have to learn how to listen. You know, something I'm always saying is like all animals communicate. We got to learn how just to read, read that communication, whether it be physical, uh, maybe verbal, um, olfactory. There's so many different ways. You know, it's funny because I was thinking, oh, how do I bring up this story? Because right before the interview, because you mentioned crows, amigo, and you know, Corvids, hey, ravens, and crows, magpies, they're incredibly smart. I it didn't surprise me when I saw this just now, but I never really thought about it. But I live in Temecula, suburb, suburban area, and I was looking out the window and I see this crow land with a bit of food in its beak, and it picks a certain tile and it's caching its food or storing its food under a little tile. Actually, I've never seen a crow in the neighborhood do that before, but you know, there's evidence of tool usage with crows and with ravens. Um, I've seen play behavior, clarence, the scenarious vulture. Um, I say vulture, and right now I'm sure people are thinking they're probably picturing a bird spiraling, they're probably picturing a carcass, you know. I mean, I eat pretty animal-like. Uh so I, you know, I don't I don't look that pretty when I eat my food, but you know, why do we focus on just that? You know, because I've seen vultures, Clarence as an example. I don't want to anthropomorphize animals, but I do want to say that working alongside wildlife for the many years that I have, you you do build these rapports. So, what I'm gonna uh talk about right now, it's because of a long relationship I've had with a wild animal, not because it's domesticated by any means. But right, so Clarence or Senarius Vulture, again, he could be aggressive for a lot of people, uh, generally more towards females in that regard. Again, we're in that the original Bircha was very male um centric. Uh, so that was kind of what their exposure was, generally speaking. And Clarence and I we would come in, he would grab a stick, he would actually, um, my hand's gonna be Clarence here, he would make this sound, and when he sees me in the morning, he would go and like rub his beak all over my head and just be the most affectionate, affectionate bird, you know. And birds express affection. They I've seen birds express love. I've seen birds, there's evidence of crows sliding down the rooftops of snow for play behavior. Yeah, you know, all animals, there's evidence of bumblebees doing play behavior. I mean, the expression of of emotions is so varied in the bird world. And I would I would argue in insects and reptiles too, we just don't really understand it as much. You know, it's easier again to for us to see that in in mammals, I think. But there's, I mean, you and I both know. I mean, the world is incredible, the connectivity that we have with maybe with a Gary or this like Indian crocodile. Even just like I think about enjoying the sun. Like I go out in the morning at the zoo, right? And I see these animals out in the sun. There's biological reasons why they're doing it, but their eyes are a little closed and they're just enjoying the morning. And I do that too, you know. So there's this there's all this connectivity, you know, with all these sorts of wildlife too. So yeah, man, I mean, birds in particular, just I think they're so misunderstood a lot of times and just generalize too, you know. But there's such an array of birds on our planet, you know, expressing all the same emotions, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:06

Well, and that's you know, I do want to touch on something you mentioned. We as animal care people, as zoologists and and whatnot, where we are really honed in on trying to avoid being anthropomorphic, saying that, oh, yeah, that one's sad, that one's happy. Right. But also to your point that you you did bring up in there is that you you spend every day with these individuals and you pick up the nuances of their behavior in the morning versus behavior in the afternoon, behavior before feeding versus behavior after feeding, if they are being social or semisocial, the fact that they get to recognize and build relationship and rapport with their humans who care for them or other animals in the space that they might share. And and it is fair to say we don't want to be like, oh, assigning human attributes to their behaviors, but we can also observe and recognize that there is a shift and change in these, there's a full spectrum and diversity of behaviors and responses and and stimulus that occur that we can recognize. Well, they may not be feeling exactly what I would call happiness or joy, but also clearly they are in a state of con their their body and everything else is expressing what we see and recognize as a state of joy or a state of sorrow if they've lost a mate or or whatever it might be. So it's it is a fine line we have to balance. But I do I do think it's fair to acknowledge that as humans going into these spaces that we recognize on a daily basis, that we can see these individual personalities with an array of experiences as a living creature, uh bird, mammal, reptile, all the above. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:43

Yeah. I mean, no doubt, man. Even as a talking right now, I'm thinking like maybe I need to rephrase my messaging now. I almost don't even want to say now it's human behavior. Let's just call it behavior. We're an animal too, right? So why even separate it, right? So I see happiness there with an elephant. I feel Happiness as well. Maybe it's different for an elephant to an oxolotl to a human being, but but it's all the same in one way, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah. So let me ask you this now. So we asked you about your your favorite you know friend. It was Phoenix Aqueta Keda.

unknown 22:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:17

Tread rolled my Rs didn't work. It was pretty good. I liked that. I like that. That's right. Kudos, kudos. And I know that's also one of your favorite species. We'll get into that. I want to wrap up the interview with that. But but for now, as your work has stepped further away from animal care. And I think the last correct me if I'm wrong, I think the last group or animal you were really in care for before you stepped into the spokesperson role was the Castawary. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Yeah, uh Castawary. And then I had a very short blip back at the back at the show, working or at the time it was a show, uh working with animals that I had known for years and years and years. So and I we can get into that too. About I'd love to talk about maybe the pressures we put on ourselves as zookeepers and wildlife caterers. Absolutely. All right. And so because I was at a time then where I was thinking of leaving and dropping everything. I was so burnt out from all of it. And not that I was um not passionate about what I am doing, but it got it got uh to a point, right? Uh but yeah, that's uh kind of right before I became the spokesperson. So the spokerson really for me was an avenue to stay focused and really hone in what I felt were my particular skill sets, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Okay, so look since you brought it up, let's let's follow that. Let's follow that tangent. Let's do it. And it's it's interesting to me because it is it has come up before us. So gosh, a couple months ago, I had an interview with Alice, who's in the UK, who does a keeper exchange program. Yeah. We talked about the importance of of recognizing that there's burnout in the zoo world. There really comes to you know and there's a lot of compassion fatigue. And then uh gosh, probably four episodes ago is uh Alexis with Animals Anonymous, and we talked about how she was facing like you know, having kids and having keeper life, which is weekends and holidays and the challenges there, and being able to transition into now doing Animals Anonymous apparel uh that allows her to stay within the realm of wildlife education, but in her own way. Um you've brought this up now, and so I want to I want to discuss it because my audience is a mix of people who are in the business, who are peripheral to the business, interested in getting into the world of wildlife care or or conservation. And I say business in the sense of it's it's it is a job, it is work.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 24:24

Yeah. But I I would love to hear from you what's been your experience and what advice do you give those that are a few years in, 10 years in, 15 years in, and like, I don't know if I can keep doing this. I'm feeling that burnout, that compassion fatigue. What was that like for you? And and what how did you navigate that?

SPEAKER_00 24:41

You know, as you're talking, I'm trying to like think back at that very that very moment too, and I can feel the anxiety coming up already about it, you know. Uh, but you know, I wanna I want to point out a few things. And I'm I'm saying this particular for the new zookeepers out there, the new wildlife care people, you know. So um we all we all interpret the world in very different ways, you know, in different spectrums, you know, in the ways of a of receiving information. And so growing up, you know, ADHD for me was something that I thought was I still consider my superpower, but sometimes it it swayed the other way and maybe uh created certain obstacles for me. But I'm not labeling it, I'm just expressing it as one of the attributes I had to kind of um navigate during that particular time. So not only you have your own uh mental capacities that you're functioning with, that like everyone has their stresses, but also like we're reading and I'm just over-generalizing. We're all so passionate about what we do, right? We love wildlife so much. I mean, I would skip all my breaks, you know, uh all the extra, what do we consider the fun things, the the events, to do what I felt was my job. I need to do more. I need to do more, I need to do more, right? Uh, because it's my responsibility. I have these animals that are, and the way I saw it in my head, and it was not a healthy way, I might add to think about it, is that these animals are under my care. I'm responsible for them, you know. Uh, and so I would push myself further and further. And it got to the point where I the energy was being depleted completely from me, and it was affecting my personal life as well. Um, and you know, we could always advance further in our careers, you know, there's always um opportunities for growth and evolution, but we also need to learn how to replenish ourselves or else we have nothing left to give. And so it got to that point. So I really need to stress the importance of finding that that work-life balance. You'll be a better human being, I think, overall, not only in your personal life and not, but also in your in your professional life, uh, if you give yourself that balance and that time for yourself. I be when I became the spokesperson, or I mentioned a little earlier, but let me backtrack a little, a little before that, I was feeling that. Uh, people, my colleagues were noticing it. People were mentioning like Marco, you gotta, because I was trying to do both, amigo. I was trying to, you know, be a wildlife care specialist. I was also trying to be a spokesperson at the time, and I thought I could navigate it all together, and it was compiling, it was getting, it was getting too much. Uh, my husband noticed it. I didn't have any energy for my personal life, and that's not fair. And but let me, I'm gonna, I'm gonna slow down right now because I want to make this, I want to make this very clear. Like your personal life is your life, your work life is just a part of your overall life, you know. So being a zookeeper or a wildlife care specialist is not the entirety of who you are as a human being. And that's something I wrestle with all the time. It is a part of who I am, but be that concept in my head meant this is what I am, this is what I do uh every single day. So again, it got to that point. Uh, but eventually I had this opportunity uh presented to me to take on spokesperson role uh full time, and that I think was uh a saving grace for me, honestly, because it it allowed me to express myself in a different way, find a different position where I can hone in what I thought were my particular skill sets in communication and you know, my background is behavior um management, you know, animal trainer basically. And so I could apply that beh that work set skills as well in the work that I do, maybe navigating an interview with uh an animal on camera as an example, reading the behavior of the animal and the human being I may be doing the interview with, right? I mean, you know what I'm talking about, and the cameraman and the light man, you know, all these things. So, but I think that's a unique skill set being a spokesperson for a zoo, an aquarium, or a wildlife organization. So I think you and I are very um similar in that kind of realm and the quality I feel and the skill sets that we have. And I think that's why maybe we we rock the roles we do that we do, right, friend? I mean, but you know, long story short, I found a role that worked for me, but I put very strong uh boundaries between work and personal life because you know, being in this particular role as a spokesperson, you can't be called day or night, you know, weekend, non-weekend, holiday, no holiday. But uh it it it it does give me a little flexibility and a little breath also. But I mean, I did that for myself, no one else did that for me. So let those people know that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

Yeah, and I'm gonna piggyback a little bit on what you said there in the sense of I think it's important to recognize, and it's it is it is really hard when you're in it. I because and I can say that because I've been there, and so I know you're you grow up with this idea or this dream job, or you learn about it once you're in a different career and you switch into doing it, and it's so many people in the animal care world, keeper world, conservation world, this is my dream job. Right. Yeah. How how can I feel icky about it now? How can I feel stressed about it and anxiety about it 10 years in because it's it was my dream and I don't know what else to do? How can I turn my back? I feel bad turning my back on my dream job. And I think a lot of what happens is we are so passionate about the work and about the care of the animals, like you you pointed out. These animals are my responsibility, right? Right, right. So we pour ourselves endlessly into this, and it's not that anyone is trying to take it so much as we are so passionate about it that we end up overextending ourselves and justifying it, and overextending ourselves and justifying it, and then it becomes the expected norm, and then we run out of juice. And and I like what you said. It's uh you a zookeep being a zookeeper, animal care, whatever, is part of your life. It is not your life. And and I agree with that tremendously. You know, I was able to mentor people for a while that were going through transitions, whether it was college to career, career to retirement. I I did that for a while, and then I had my own experience of getting laid off and had to re really reevaluate. Yeah, what am I if I'm not employed by a zoo because I've done that for 30 years?

SPEAKER_00 30:34

Yeah, man, no.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

But I I I recognize that it the job didn't define me. I defined the job, that I brought my skills and talents into that role, and that's what I am with whether I'm working for someone else or not. And and not that that's something that everybody can do, but the I think the the value in in hearing your story, Marco, and the value of sharing this information is that perhaps it might reach the ears of someone who's not there yet, or is on the cusp of that or in the throes of it. And then maybe the conversation I had with Alice or the conversation I had with Alexis or this conversation with you gives them the opportunity to maybe step back and go, okay, how am I how am I treating myself outside of work? How am I managing the other parts of my life? And also then, is there another opportunity that might come up? And maybe the answer is no right now, but in four months that opportunity might be there. So if you start putting it out there, start looking for those opportunities now, it's an it's a space that that could grow into or you could find that avenue to still be who you are, what you're passionate about, what you've always wanted to do, maybe just shift gears a little bit. So it's it's important, it's important. Because I think you and I see a lot of people who are are hit hard by this.

SPEAKER_00 31:42

Yes, and I I totally get it. I mean, I I still wrestle with it every single day, like and every single day. You know, it's something I I mentioned to you because I I look towards you a lot because you're one of my mentors too, Rick, in showing me how to navigate this kind of experience. And so what you know, what clicked for me, and maybe it'll click for other wildlife people, is the thought of I need to basically just train my brain like it's an animal, right? Uh these assume behaviors, they set up the environment to a certain standard, which only you know um enhances and encourages these unwarranted behaviors. And so I started thinking of my brain as this animal, like in the morning, okay. Instead of doing this, we're gonna reapply a different strategy. And so a simple thing for me now, uh, just taking a breath, I write three things down like I did this morning of things that I am grateful for. And I also because it helps my my kind of brain uh to calm down a little bit. I write haikus, you know, and that kind of calms my brain now as well. But just yeah, you gotta you gotta find that breath, you know, and I I swear you're gonna be a better human being for. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 32:45

And and I love to hear that you do that. And I know I know we've had this conversation about your your gratitude, and uh, you know, something that that when I went through a real rough spot uh several years ago, uh it it is something that I started at that time. And uh, you know, at first it just feels it feels a little bougie, it feels forced. Yeah, like okay, I'm gonna be Sam. Thank you for it. Thank you for my cup of coffee. I'm I heard about it.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

You know, I was thinking in my head, like, this is a little tung kumba, yeah. I don't know if this is gonna work, you know.

SPEAKER_02 33:14

Yeah, but but it it does. It does. No, it totally does. Yeah, like any shaped behavior, it takes practice and repetition and reinforcement, and then all of a sudden you're on the other side and like I I need to sit down and write this because this is important to me. And it helps, it definitely helps, absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

Yeah, and yeah, yeah, it was interesting because I did mention I was doing this to with my husband uh prior. And so a few dates had gone by, and I think it was like the third or fourth morning. He just brought up, like, I've noticed your your mornings seem a little calmer, you know, you're not as wound up, you know. And then I told him what I'd been doing, goes, I I definitely noticed it, you know. So that that really spoke to me. Like it's it's there's someone outside observing it. Yeah, exactly. Reinforcement, highly reinforced, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah, yeah, there's great value in that. There's great value in that. And you know, I think we could probably have a whole nother episode on on self-care, and maybe we will do that. Yeah, no kidding. But but I want to I want to jump back towards the animal side of things. Uh I wanted to ask you before you stepped into the ambassador role and you were working with Cast Warriors, and you also ended up working at the show there for a bit before jumping fully into the ambassador work. Was there a particular individual, feathered friend that was just your homie, your best bud, your work partner before you stepped into more of the ambassador role?

SPEAKER_00 34:31

I love the the pitch, amigo. I mean, you know what I'm gonna say, but though I mean, but I won't make a lot of you know because I love kids. Oh, you guys. I mean, okay, so let me let me organize all these crazy thoughts in my head. So I love all birds are amazing, right? As a kid, though, like it started with dinosaurs, right? I could I can mention a little, I'm an 80s child, by the way. So a Captain Planet, Ninja Turtles, even there was a dinosaur from space cartoon that I was into. There was all these things. You know, so so I had a love of birds of prey, for one, you know, I was a big fan of carnivores and especially birds. So birds of prey are no-brainer, hawks, eagles, falcons, owls, raptors in particular. But also I've always been a huge lover of ratites. So like ostriches, emus, kiwis, cassowaries. Uh, these are amazing, these flightless birds, you know. So if uh your listeners aren't aware, which most I'm sure are, but in case you don't know, uh, these birds are not adapted for flight. They've evolved in a very different way. So it could be a rhea in South America that looks very similar to an ostrich. And by that, just by the shorter wingspan, ostriches are going to be quite a bit taller. They all have very long legs. This particular animal is called the cassowary. There's the northern, the southern, the dwarf, right? I worked with the southern cassowary at the safari park. Oh man, what a dream. You know, I was in the bird department at the time and kind of newish to the to the area. I mean, I came in from, and I'm saying this more specifically for the people in the industry that I came in as a, at the time, an animal trainer, because I wanted to learn all the skill sets as a zookeeper because there was this a divide, and maybe in some areas in the world there probably still is, but you know, we're trying to blend all these crafts together, right? These skill sets. But so I went from a being a behavior-oriented individual to learning how to maintain habitats and breeding practices and all these other things that are nuanced, being a zookeeper. And so one day, because I'm a relief keeper at the time, management calls me up and they go, and we have this new habitat called Australia, out back, a walkabout uh in Safari Park. And they bring me in the office, like, Marco, so we're thinking, you know, with this opportunity, would you be interested at all of being the main zookeeper for the area of Australia, which meant that I would be working with the Casa Waries, right? And I I'm trying to, I'm trying to be like, no, dude, I was trying to be way cool about it. You should you would have been very proud of me. I was like sitting back and just nodding my head, like, and I think my line was something like, yes, I think I I welcome that opportunity. Thank you so much. You know, something like that. But inside, I was like, what? You know, this is wild. This is crazy. I get to work with the castawary, and not only that, you know, uh they uh I'm sure they would say it, you know, and not it's not ego at all because of my behavior background here. These this is a newer bird species for the bird department at the time. Uh they've had dwarf cassaries before, but this particular bird uh required a different way of navigating the space. And we I mentioned protected contact earlier, but you know, under AZA, American Association of Zoos and Aquariums Protocols Guidelines Certain Wildlife, you know, we in an accredited zoo or aquarium, for instance, I would, we would never go, uh, wildlife care staff would never go into maybe habitat with a lion, uh, with an elephant, a gorilla. That also includes southern cassaries. Uh now they I can talk forever about them, so I'm trying to minimize this. But you know, most people, most people know them for me. Let me ask you that. Let me ask you how to do it. Tell me, tell me. Lead it, lead it.

SPEAKER_02 37:42

I'll have pictures up of castaries on the YouTube video. But I want I want to ask you what about the cassowary is your favorite thing? Because I know you. I know how passionate you are, how much you love them. I know we can give an hour spiel on them. There's tons of great information. And maybe I'll have you back to just do a cast where you're gonna be able to do that. But I want to hear, I just want to hear from you what was one of or a couple of your favorite things about working with this species.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

Uh it sounds really odd, but the the first thing I want to say is the calmness of them. You know, most people think of them well, the internet sensationalizes them in a particular way. You would see world's most dangerous bird, and not to discredit the potential of an injury with the cast away, because they have a an inside nail about maybe four inches long, perhaps even longer if it's a female. Um, and when you see them running at you at, you know, close at 30 miles per hour with these giant legs and this razor-sharp long nail, I get it. But what I tell people is like, think about a rhino. I mean, we all know not to piss off a rhino for obvious reasons. I would say the same thing about a casserole, but why do we got to hype up the bird version just because it's a bird? So the the calmness, Rick, honestly, like so. There were days, oh man, my favorite day. So I want everyone like picture your head like you're going into this like Australian rainforest. You're the only human being, and I it's a protected space. So I have a walkway and I have barriers, visual barriers, physical barriers between me. But I walk in this space and I have a male castor on my left and I have a female on my right, and I'm I'm cleaning pools. And the and what I mean by calmness is you just you don't hear them. They're walking quietly. If you've ever seen a leopard or a jaguar walk through a jungle space, I'll use my hands as an example. They walk forward, they pause for a second, they move back, you know, they're feeling the space up. Maybe they don't want to trip over a leaf or make a sound. So cast awares will do the same thing, and they walk with a and you know, it's my emotions putting it on it, but they walk with a tenderness about them and there's a peace about them. They're a solitary animal, and just watching them maneuver quietly through a rainforest, uh, it calms you so much. I want you to share also how much uh roughly do these birds weigh. Oh, um a male being smaller is going to be roughly 90-ish, maybe close to 100 pounds. Females, way bigger. I'm talking over six foot tall. I'm talking like over 120 pounds, if not more, depending on the female. It's a big animal.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

And yet you're explaining to us how they quietly maneuver through a rainforest. And I love that about so many species, because they're so well adapted for being in their own environment. Right. That I think movies and and TV sensationalize this big animal makes boom, boom, boom, all this ruckus and noise and crunching of the leaves. And yet you can have a hundred-pound bird with these giant feet walking through leaf litter and not make a sound.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

Not make one sound. You know, there was a colleague of mine when I first started working with them that ex explained the calmness and peace about them to avoid avoid conflict. Is um a fellow uh birdkeeper went to Australia and got to see a southern castor, which I've yet to see, a southern castor out in the wild. And the story the guide gave was that we have this male castor in this habitat, takes this route every single morning quietly and peacefully. One day a tree fell. And instead of trying to maneuver around the space and figure it out, he's like, no, I'm good. I'm just gonna, I'm gonna go way over here and make my new path, you know, and just the the idea of that to me, you know, and they're so connected to the forest, like you said, and it's just it's just breathtaking. So calmness for one, but also, you know, because I think it's close to how I am as well. Like, I feel like I'm a calm individual for the most part, but those who know me, like, I got a temper. So I do I do also want to acknowledge that aspect of the personality also, even though I try to downplay it because it does get overly sensationalized. I mean, if push comes to shove, you know, I'm gonna shove and maybe verbally. And and that's a little bit of my nature too, the dichotomy of it. And but that's also what I love about the cast who are also, you know, uh, for instance, females are known to be a little more uh a bit more aggressive. I'm gonna downplay it a little, but yeah, they're more aggressive than the males. And I remember working with the youngest female at the time, Yara, it was her name, is her name, and she's uh she was a little chick at the time, and so she was going through quarantine at the hospital, and I were working myself with the bird staff and the hospital staff to establish certain behaviors that we could start working her up. And this was an attempt to have established behaviors when she moves from the hospital setting to a habitat setting to be able to um navigate the space uh in a nice way for the man, the human and the bird. So by that I mean maybe going into a transport carrier, maybe shifting from one spot to the other, maybe targeting, you know, as an example. So we were working all these behaviors. She was great in the hospital space during quarantine. Then she moved to my habitat that I was managing, which is the Outback in Australia, right? And I've I know her. She knows me. It's been a few weeks now, we've established these behaviors. But I remember the first day she came out, you know, she's a little thing too. Like, picture like maybe, maybe like two feet tall, brown with little little lines on them. Have you ever seen a taper baby? By the way, it looks very similar. Like, right, the camouflage, yeah, the watermelon kind of markings, right? So she had that. So she's walking out the space, she's walking in from the back area, she sees me, and she knows who I am, right? But she sees me, and then she decides to take two steps quietly, and then all of a sudden, jump up like maybe five feet sideways, and then with her little baby feet, pa on the chain link, which is right exactly where my face was, you know. But that reminded me one, again, this is a wild animal, this is why we have protective contact, you know, and uh two, the the expression of all sorts of emotions I want to point out. And again, I'm not sensationalizing aggression for a castory, but all animals have a plethora of emotions. So those are kind of my two favorite things of the cast stories a calmness, but also the ability to really, really, you know, protect itself if it needs to, you know. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:37

I love that. I love that. And I also want to address what you just mentioned. I think it's so well said is that the range of emotions she might have been experiencing doesn't mean that she was trying to be aggressive to you, although on your end of it it would feel aggressive. Right. It might be her way of expressing I'm uncomfortable in this new space, or I don't know where I am, what's going on, or or I'm frustrated with not. Being where I I just was, but because of her size and strength, that could be very damaging to a human. And so then they get this this record or this this uh label of being uh dangerous beast, you know. Oh man, totally dangerous bird, right? Yeah, so they all know yeah, oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:17

I was gonna say they all have their personalities too. So even the two things I mentioned, you know, uh Maka, he's you know, he you I know you know, Rick, but he's my particular favorite. And if I was gonna I okay, I make this joke, you know. If if we were in high school, Maka would be like, he'd be reading poetry, you know, he'd be sitting under a tree, you know. Yara, it's just her personality. For instance, Yara was maybe uh the kid behind the library, if you know what I mean. You know, but yeah, for instance, even growing up, Yara had a favorite, I called it the kicking tree, you know? Some people need to extract it. Like, like I go to the gym, right? And it's my way of getting all my emotions out. You know, I for instance, I don't listen to news, world news until after work when I go home. And I then I get kind of anxious and frustrated and go to the gym and just get that energy out. Yara has her own version of that, and there was this um, it doesn't exist anymore. Like let's say a little moment of silence for this palm tree, you know. But it was a particular, a particular palm tree in the front of the habitat that she just decided, you know, you are gonna be my thing that I'm gonna express certain energy and emotion towards. As she would have her bloopies run around, get the energy because she was a little baby bird, and and pa pa-pa kick the the the palm tree. And eventually the palm tree didn't survive that that expression of behavior, you know. But there you go.

SPEAKER_02 45:28

Yeah, she wasn't horticulture's favorite. No, but believe me, I apologize to them left and right. So fair enough. Well, Marco, I do want to start wrapping this up, but before you do go, is there obviously zoology, Marco is your presence on Instagram and TikTok, correct? Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Anywhere people could go to learn more about any of the projects or work that you do in Mexico or other organizations that they could look at, whether it's a website or other Instagrams or TikToks.

SPEAKER_00 45:56

Well, I mean uh well, as far as the international work, I will point out, especially if there's any people under Wildlife Care that want to get connected in this kind of work, reach out for your local zookeeper chapters. I mentioned uh the American Association of Zookeepers. This is an international outreach committee, but also even just creating your own connections, which I eventually started doing too. I still love helping out a vet camp and that work with the that she does. If you need it, I would definitely jump in and help out. But also, I'd made my own connections in networking, especially for you. And again, we can talk forever, Rick. I know we have so much to talk about, but I want to say this one little bit for native Spanish speakers out there, and especially because I identify I'm from San Diego, my family's from Mexico, I'm Chicano. Sometimes language can be a barrier. Don't let that stop you. Just because maybe you don't feel confident in your Spanish doesn't mean you can't connect with our community. And I know I'm being very specific to the Latin community, but I've met a lot of Latin people in the wildlife here in the US who maybe feel some kind of way about their language. When I first started doing it, I was scared. I mean, I outwardly said, yes, I can do this, but inside I was terrified because I was afraid of, you know, messing up. I was afraid of my family and my my community, you know, the pressure of it, but I did it. So don't let fear stop you. So if you if you're interested in this kind of work, reach out, go to zoos in Latin America, if that's where your passion is, and start creating those connections. And and believe me, you have something you can share and you can learn from them as well. So I definitely encourage you to step out of your comfort zone, you know, get a little scared, but push through it, and you're gonna have a really cool adventure.

SPEAKER_02 47:24

Yeah, and I as someone who's who's been able to see behind the scenes with you, Marco, I can I can tell anybody and everyone who's listening or watching there were times where we were heading into a situation where Marco was the Spanish speaker for the presentation we were doing, and he was double checking his notes, he was checking with family members about proper pronunciation, looking things up. Yeah, and and that and that's just it. Exactly what you said. You you did it. I mean, the the old saying, courage is being afraid but doing it anyways. Yeah, and that's where you learn and grow, and that's where you're able to make an impact. So people who see where you are now, Marco, I will I really appreciate you saying that yeah, you you may not be perfect at it, but you you do it anyways because that's what you did. You kept going and pushing yourself, and now you're in the space where you're having so much impact. So I just appreciate you bringing that message to this interview as well. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 48:10

Yeah, I know I love it. And you know, uh, I just gotta point out too, because this is probably gonna be talking is gonna air in June during Pride Month. And it's just a reminder that we are all human beings, doesn't matter where you are in life. You know, I was told as a child in San Diego I got in trouble by teachers for speaking in Spanish. I was one of the only Mexican kids in the school. I got harassed and bullied and called all sorts of things. I got pulled from school an hour a day to learn English. So there was a time that I was taught by human trainers that I shouldn't be proud of who I was. So it was a time, and I'm saying this specifically because I know a lot of Latin people.

SPEAKER_02 48:43

There's a lot of people out there that are the same way.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Feel the same way, right? Yeah, and so that's why I uh for a while I lost my language, you know. But it I fought really hard to grret it back and represent. And what you said, I love that it's not perfect. And what I tell people in one particular colleague that I'm trying to get her as excited for this kind of work is that that's good. Being perfect is boring, and no one wants being a polis, you know. I represent both communities. Sometimes my mom or someone in the community would tell them, like, oh Marker, you probably could have phrased it this way. I'm like, okay, that's cool, and I'll I'll learn, I'll evolve, but I'm not gonna be ashamed of who I am, you know. So I just want people to feel that, not only in the Latin community, but also in the queer community as well, in particular. Um, I know you wildlife people out there know, but in case listeners don't know, there is queer expression all over Mother Nature, coming from a religious kind of family growing up, you know, something I contended with, but it is in nature, it is natural. I want everyone to celebrate who they are, you know, and just be you.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

I appreciate that, man. And I love you tremendously, and I'm really, really glad to finally have you on the podcast. We are gonna have you back on again, I think, for like a castaway episode or something. Just so much to talk about. But uh thanks, man. I really appreciate you taking the time to be on the podcast, and it's just fun to be in this setting with you again. No, thank you, Freck.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

It was such an honor.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

Thank you, amigo. And thank you, dear listeners. Uh, as you know from listening to us talk, Marco and I have a great rapport. We've known each other for a very long time. We've worked together in many different capacities, and before I was laid off, we worked together as co-hosts on the podcast for the San Diego Zoo. So it was a treat. It was a real treat to be back with him in this space. We've we've hung out, uh obviously outside of work and gone to dinners together and whatnot and and kicked around the idea of what we would talk about. There's so much he knows and he's passionate about that it's just great to hear his stories. So a big treat to be able to have him on Animals Nature and U. And I appreciate everyone who's been joining us here on Animals Nature and U. It's been so much fun. And of course, the things we talked about, I'll put links down below for more information about Caswaries and Katakatas and Mark on social media. Of course, you can find me on my website, zoologyrick.com, and all of my social media is linked down below too. I do want to ask, if if you don't mind, if you do me a favor. I mentioned this a while ago and I want to mention it again. If you happen to have a couple extra seconds, would you leave a review or add some stars to wherever you're listening to this podcast? If you're on YouTube, maybe leave a comment or a thumbs up. These things don't bump it up in the algorithm or do anything other than show others who might be scrolling through looking for something to listen to or watch that other people are enjoying it. So wait, I should probably stop and look at this too. It's an opportunity for us to get the message out there about the different wildlife, animals, nature, conservation, all these great stories for everyone that we've been interviewing. So it's a way to help boost that in the sense of, I guess, social boosting, to draw in the idea that maybe I want to look at that too, if I've never seen this before or heard this before. So I'd appreciate that. I appreciate it quite a bit actually. So with that, we are gonna wrap it up. I I do want to say again, thank you all so much for joining me. Uh, Animals Nature and You is on Instagram. It's the only social media we have. You want to connect there, and of course, you can leave some fan mail if you want. If you're listening to this on a podcast player, the very first link at the very top says send fan mail and you can reach out and get a hold of me there, ask a question, or have a show idea or whatever it might be. Or maybe you don't do social media at all, so it's a way we can stay in touch. Either way, I do appreciate it. And last but not least, of course, make sure you subscribe or follow wherever you're listening or watching, because every Tuesday we have our 10-minute Tuesdays, me doing a solo episode as a follow-up to our previous interview or talking about a species or a current event, and then every Thursday, like today, we have an awesome interview with an awesome person doing awesome stuff. All right, let's wrap this up. Have a good one, everybody.