The Human Side of Conservation with Andrew Mooney from the Dublin Zoo

Discover how collaborative efforts make the difference in wildlife conservation. In this insightful interview, Andrew Mooney from Dublin Zoo shares the multifaceted approach to conservation, emphasizing the importance of community engagement, native species projects, and the role of zoos in global conservation efforts.

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Links mentioned in this episode:
Duklin Zoo
Selamatkan Yaki
More about the Sulawesi crested black macaque


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Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Yeah, I I think visitors do care. Visitors want to know that the money they're spending is being used for good and that the species that they see in the zoo are also being protected in the wild. And I think that that's the key bit that we've tried to develop is linking the species in our collection to the conservation projects we work with in the wild. So that if you come and you see Sulawesi crested macaques at Dublin Zoo, you can then learn about how you've actually helped them in the wild by visiting that day.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I have worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature, and You, a podcast that explores a connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome to another episode of Animals, Nature and You. I am your host, Rick Schwartz, and I am, as always, very glad you're here. It has been a very busy month. We have had a lot of interviews. I got to take a little break, so we did a little, a little replay of an older interview, and we talked about in that interview with Mike Veal about the importance of conservation happening in the actual space, the value of directly donating and working with those that are doing the work wherever that might be. Today's interview is similar yet different, in that, in that conversation with Mike when we did that replay last week, it we talked about the value and the importance of the human side of conservation. And the thing that's really exciting about this conversation coming up today, this interview with Andrew. He works at the Dublin Zoo. We'll get into the details before we bring him in here to the studio. But I I've known his work for a while in the sense of we've been connected on LinkedIn for a very long time. And recently he got back from a trip from Southeast Asia. And you could tell by his post and the pictures, the work he's doing there is of great importance because of the people. And we also, I want to ask him in this conversation, I want to ask him about the connection that people in Ireland can have with people in Southeast Asia, because that's really how we're going to get this conservation work done, wherever it is, whatever we might be talking about. It is connecting people around the world to recognize the need for the biodiversity and working with others to not only save animals from a different side of the planet, but also talk about maybe animals that we're working with in our own backyard or that need our help. I think often we forget because we're so focused on the cool, exotic, amazing animals that sometimes animals in our own backyard need our help too. So I'm looking forward to having this conversation with Andrew. And real quick before we start, if you haven't already or you're new here, perhaps, if this episode resonates with you, if you like something about it or you've been listening for a while, take a moment to leave a review, some stars, wherever you're listening or watching this podcast, because although that doesn't change any ranking or anything like that, it does give a little bit of social credit, if you will. For those who might be checking the reviews or checking how many stars there are, when we see other people are liking something, we're curious, we want to check it out. And that's really how this community grows. That's how this podcast has been growing. And for those of you who've been here all along, those of you who are joining, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you tremendously. I really do. And it's been a lot of fun doing this. And we're we're halfway through this year, we're going to keep rolling. So with that, let me introduce you to Andrew Mooney. Andrew Mooney is the Conservation and Science Manager at the Dublin Zoo and for the IUCN Center for Species Survival Ireland. He currently oversees the implementation of the Dublin Zoo's Conservation Master Plan, leading the conservation and science team to deliver local, national, and global initiatives that protect threatened species and biodiversity. With a PhD in XC2 conservation from Trinity College Dublin, in collaboration with Species 360, Andrew's work focuses on zoo-based conservation and the integration of NC2 and XC2 efforts. So with that knowledge, with that introduction, Andrew, I want to just say thank you so much for taking the time. We've had the time change. You're in Ireland, I'm here in the States, you're at the end of your day, I'm at the beginning of mine. Just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to be here on Animals, Nature, and You.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

As we mentioned there in the intro going into this, you're with the Dublin Zoo, you are the head of the conservation. What all does that entail? And I I guess you could kind of peel that back however you want, whether you want to come at it from the zoo side or from your personal experience or just what you're doing now as the head of conservation there.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Oh, I mean, it's the most broad job, I think, in the zoo. It encompasses everything to do with our conservation partnerships, all of our on-site biodiversity conservation, all of our public outreach for conservation, and then obviously involvement with things like EASA and Biazza and our regional associations. So it really is way broader than I think people think. But it's also the most rewarding part about it then that you work with so many cool people.

SPEAKER_00 5:12

For the most part, it's been my experience more as a wildlife educator and communicator of what organizations do for conservation. What's reflected back to me usually from the audience or people who aren't part of that world is they just, well, conservation is just saving animals. You breed more, you put them out in the wild, or you fence off a space in the wild and you say, you know, leave that space alone. But to your point, you have like multiple hands and multiple pies for lack of a better expression, in the sense that you it's about people you work with at the zoo, it's about people you work with in other countries, it is about these different organizations, NGOs as non-governmental organizations, governmental organizations, and and and not just Ireland, but then the countries that the conservation is happening. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 5:53

Oh, completely. I think whenever I tell someone I work in the zoo, they're always asking what animals I see and I work with. And I'm like, people. People are the only animals I work with. Um, and honestly, it makes sense when you think about it, like conservation is a people problem. It's all because of human activities, what we're doing, what we shouldn't be doing. But it's also it makes it easy then to kind of fix because all you have to do is work with people, which is what I do, hopefully, to try and fix those problems. Um, like there'd be days at the zoo where I don't see a single animal except humans.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

It's funny because it's true. I mean, it's it's I think a lot of people do have it in mind. You work at the zoo, you must work with animals. But to your point, it is about the people. The a lot of the challenges wildlife and animals and natural spaces face are because of human activity. And I've always said, you know, the nice thing about that is that because it's a human activity issue, we can, we can, as humans, can fix it. So uh if you don't mind, share with me maybe some of the some of the biggest things right now that you are tackling or facing as part of the Dublin Zoo and that conservation work.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

So I think this year has been a particularly good year. We've been building, so I joined the zoo five years ago almost. So we've been building slowly on certain projects. Um, but this year I think we've really hit the ground running with a couple of native species projects we're working on. Um so at the moment at the zoo, we have curloo, which are a waiting bird here in Ireland, and we're head starting them. So we're bringing in eggs from the wild, hatching them here, and then they're going to be released back into the wild in a couple of weeks now. But for us at the zoo, we've been working on this for three years at this stage, and this is the first year we're going to have chicks going back to the wild. Oh, wow. Um, which is fantastic. The the curlew itself in Ireland is down to a handful of breeding pairs. So to be able to actually put birds back out there has been a huge, huge win for us.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I would think so. What what are some of the challenges that they face that drop their numbers in the wild?

SPEAKER_01 7:46

It's a bit of a mix. Um, obviously, humans um and land conversion to agriculture has been a big one. So trying to really encourage local stakeholders to better manage their land for these species. Um, but also predation as well from different carnivores here in Ireland, um, that's been the biggest loss of chicks over the recent years because all the eggs and fledglings are consumed before they get a chance to actually fledge and fly off and be recruited into the population.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

So that sounds obviously you've got the local project there, and uh, you know that that's one thing that's always been important. I think that we in the zoo world sometimes need to make sure we communicate more that conservation sometimes is right in your own backyard. It's not just these faraway exotic places that it is sometimes our own wildlife and ecosystem that really needs a lot of help, also. So I think it's cool you guys are doing that. Is there um any other projects in the in Ireland or the UK in general that you guys are a part of that you're doing work with?

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah, we have around 10 different partners we work with regularly here at the zoo, and a lot of that is happening outside the zoo. So we're funding work or we're collaborating on different projects. Um, for example, we work with seals in Ireland, so we have two species of seals, and we support a rescue center for those seals every year. Um, but a lot of the wildlife rescue stuff is done off-site at the zoo. Um, so we actually try and support different rescue centers and work with them, do some capacity building and some sharing ethnic expertise just to try and make sure that we're having that kind of local impact. I think the key bit for us over the last number of years has been trying to scale that up and work with government to make sure that the value of zoos and aquariums for conservation is valued and that we become more active players in a lot of the kind of bigger projects, like the head starting one that we're involved in now. But that's been a bit of a almost societal shift in terms of how conservation is viewed within Ireland as a country.

SPEAKER_00 9:44

Would you say that that general public perception of zoos is one of the biggest challenges you are facing there at the Dublin Zoo, in the sense of really letting people know, no, actually, we do so much more work, you just don't see it because it's not at the zoo? Or what would be the biggest challenge you guys are facing when it comes to that zoo conservation front?

SPEAKER_01 10:02

I think you hit the nail on the head with that one. It's that kind of communication piece that your visit to the zoo is great. You get to see incredible animals, you get to see cool behaviors, all that stuff. But ultimately, what you're doing by visiting us is allowing us to do this conservation work, um, whether it's at home right outside our doorstep or whether it's in Southeast Asia for elephants or orangutans. We don't always communicate that um as best as we could. And I think that's that's the key bit for me is actually getting the conservation work we do into the the eyes and ears and of the visitors to make sure they know that they can trust us. It's that it's almost like your social license, I think. Zoos and aquariums rely on conservation as a social license to operate. Um, but we actually need to kind of put our money where our mouth is in that case and better show it.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah, right. And that's one thing I remember, I mean, I've been I've been part of the zoo world for over 30 years now. And one of the biggest things I noticed coming into it out of college was the so much more work was being done. I I didn't even know as a college student studying to get into this line of work, I did not have access to, I could not see behind the scenes. And by by behind the scenes, I mean like all the work being done everywhere around the world by these organizations and these zoos because so much of the zoo's energy is spent towards getting people in the front door because that's how they keep things going. And they don't talk as much about the conservation and the mindset when I first got into the zoo world in the mid-90s was well, people don't want to, people don't care about that. That's that's our passion, that's what we do, but they want to come to the zoo and have a good time. And I love that over the decades that I've been doing this, I see that shift where now the general public is almost demanding, like, well, what exactly do you do with the money I spend at the zoo? So it's great then that it gives zoos the opportunity to showcase all the work they're doing all over the world.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

Yeah, I because I think visitors do care. Visitors want to know that the money they're spending is being used for good and that the species that they see in the zoo are also being protected in the wild. And I think that that's the key bit that we've tried to develop is linking the species in our collection to the conservation projects we work with in the wild. So that if you come and you see Sulawesi crested macaques at Dublin Zoo, you can then learn about how you've actually helped them in the wild by visiting that day or the kind of threats they're facing and how we're addressing those specifically. That's the the really, I think, key bit that a zoo can deliver that not every organization can. Because again, the the unique selling point of a zoo is a living animal. And then you just have to link that to conservation and hopefully you end up with gold, conservation gold.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

I I gotta thank you as a podcaster right now, taking off my conservation hat and say you just offered up the perfect segue to what I want to talk to you about, which you mentioned the silhouette's crested macaques. One thing I saw now, this episode is being recorded almost four weeks before it's gonna come out. So what we're talking about now will be an older post on your LinkedIn. But a couple weeks back, you posted on LinkedIn that you were in Southeast Asia, right? You were you actually spent some time there. And specifically for the crested macaque conservation work that the Dublin Zoo is doing, that partnership was for me as someone who who enjoys that kind of content, who loves seeing that, it was such a direct line where someone goes, like you just said, they come to the zoo, they have that live animal experience, they fall in love, they're spending money there, and your organization sending people like you and also funding then to Boots on the Ground doing this kind of work. Share with everybody, please, this project that you were a part of that the Dublin Zoo's partnered with that is having this impact for these macaques. Thank you. There's nothing I like talking about more than macaques. Um well, let's do it.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

But no, so Dublin Zoo has been supporting um Salematkin Yaki, which is a community-based conservation organization working in North Sulawesi in Indonesia, and they're working to conserve the critically endangered Sulawesi crested macaque or yaki, as it's known in Bahasa, Indonesian. And it's such a cool species, it's striking. It has this cool mohawk, it has this heart-shaped red butt, um, but it's also critically endangered. And there's around 5,000 of these guys left in the wild, and they're only found at the very, very north tip of Sulawesi. So super endemic, like a lot of species in Sulawesi. Um, so the conservation need has been really urgent, and we've been working with them since 2007 as a financial supporter, but a couple of years ago they had an unfortunate situation where their primary funder had to pull out for um restructuring reasons. So they were basically up in the air whether the project would even continue. Oh wow. And at that time, we were very lucky to be in a position to be able to step in as their core funder. And what that means is we basically just get to pay for all the kind of unsexy bits like the wages, the rent, the diesel in the car, all that kind of stuff that these projects need to run, we're now able to cover on an annual basis. But the key bit for us with that was that we wanted to do more than just fund. We wanted to do capacity building work, we wanted to actually go and see the macaques, see the community outreach work that was happening, and understand, I guess, what it was actually like to be a conservation organization working to save this threatened species living right beside humans in protected areas. So we've been the primary funder now for just over two years, and I'm incredibly lucky to have visited twice now already. And every time I've been there, I'm blown away by the dedication of the people working in North Siloe. If you get a chance, please visit everyone.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Well, yeah, because you know, to your point, the financing side of it is so very important, and ecotourism can help with that. It it brings in funding to the region, and the money goes a lot further, usually in these areas than in our own neighborhoods, if you will. So uh with that, when you go there and you get to experience and see this, uh obviously it means a lot to you. You can hear it in your voice just as you're explaining it. What are some of the challenges right now, specifically, that they're working on for these macaques?

SPEAKER_01 15:58

The biggest one that, especially at Salma Kanyaki, is working on, is really trying to build a sense of pride and ownership over the Yaqui and all of North Siloasia's biodiversity. Um, when I was there, they had a program that was ongoing, which was visiting every single school around a protected area to introduce the macaque to the student, sorry, the macaque to the students um and encourage them to actually take ownership and pride. And they have this phrase, it's um jagahootan jaga yaki, and it's save the forest, save the yaki. Oh. And it's that kind of community ownership that they're really trying to build in because although most of these people live alongside protected areas, they don't always see the macaque. Some kids had never seen the macaque, but their actions were having a direct impact on the macaque. And I think that that's the key bit that they've been working on is working with those um younger people and really building that pride.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

Just from my own experience, what I've seen uh a couple times going to Africa, I remember there was the conservation organization we were visiting, they specifically sponsored school groups to go out on a safari bus. So not quite like the large buses we have in America or Ireland, but their version of a bus and take the kids actually out to see wildlife that because they're in uh a community or a city, they don't necessarily even know they have such amazing wildlife in their own backyard. They've they've heard of it, but they've never seen one. And to your point, then the value of them having that connection is the same value we were talking about, someone going to the zoo and seeing these macaques in person there, having an emotional attachment to it, and then being activated to participate in conservation. So, what a great thing to do to go out there and and give some of that direct connection and ownership, uh, that sense of this is a part of my neighborhood, this is a part of my culture to add in that more like impactful behavior on the community's part uh amongst those species. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

And I think one thing that's shocking to me is that most of them they have no idea that the macaque is endemic to North Siloasy. Wow. Like to them, if they see it, it's a regular thing. Um, like some of the national parks, like you can see them really easily, but they really try and drive home that no, this is only found right here in your backyard in your neighborhood, and that you need to be really proud of that and work to protect it.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Right. And that goes into what we see sometimes here in North America, where it's that people see coyotes or wolves or bears, and then they're like, oh well, whatever. But it's like, no, this is actually a really unique opportunity that outside of your own space, other people don't get to experience that. So that that's it's funny how the human condition is, how we get used to something and we don't think much of it when actually it is very special. I I it makes me wonder too, then so other projects that the Dublin Zoo's a part of, is it a similar approach where it's about getting into the community and doing a lot of work there, or is it different depending upon the project that you're a part of?

SPEAKER_01 18:56

I would say it varies project to project, but we tend to, when we're looking at projects and species to support, we always try and make sure there's some kind of community and outreach element that goes along with the the more direct conservation work, whether it's habitat protection or um rescuing animals. We always try to have some kind of element that's linked to the community. And that's just basically common sense at this point, I think, with conservation. Everyone realizes that you can't do anything unless you're looking after the people around the animals as well. Um and all the conservation projects we work with, they realize that too. That's why they're doing it. It's um interesting, go going back to the macaque, there's actually two projects working in Soloesi. Selma Kanyaki is completely community-based, so they're working with people full-time, but there's another project called Macaca Negra, um, and they're just researching the animals. So they spend all day in the forest with the the macaques. Um but then macaque and nigra and Selma Kanyaki get kind of work together and jointly deliver a lot of work as well, which is is really cool to see both.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Well, sure, because I mean you've got the one group out there researching the animal, and they can bring that data and information back for then the other group to educate the public about it and share more information. So that's the it's so important. The collaborations are obviously so important. A lot of what we're talking about is the human side of it and absolutely the most important part because it's human-caused issues that these animals are up against. I want to shift a little bit towards you and ask you, did you come into conservation and and this kind of work because you had an interest and passion in animals, or was it you've always had this sort of let's connect people to get things done? Because it seems like everyone kind of has their own story. So I'd love to hear your sort of origin story, how you got into this work.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

I mean, it was definitely love for animals. When I was a kid, I loved visiting the zoo and it was always Dublin Zoo. It's my local zoo. Um, so I knew I wanted to work with animals and I thought I was gonna be a zoo keeper. So I went to college, I did my zoology degree, and then I kind of fell into a PhD. Um, and I really kind of fell into a PhD.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

That was when I kind of fall into a PhD program.

SPEAKER_01 21:09

Oh no, it just worked out really perfect timing because I was finishing my undergraduate degree and my supervisor at the time had an opportunity to work with Global Zoo Data. Oh wow and she had some money set aside and she offered the PhD to me, and I was like, sure, I have nothing else lined up for the next four years. Um and I kind of fell in love with the the kind of conservation side of it, and particularly with the data, I fell in love with the kind of bigger approach that we can think of when it comes to zoos and aquariums. Like individually, they're all very impactful, but collectively they're a superpower for conservation. So at that point, I was like, no, that's what I want my career to do. I want to try and cut kind of bring together that collective force if I can in any way and harness that power for conservation.

SPEAKER_00 21:57

Nice, nice. So you got through the PA. PhD, you got bit by that bug for data and collecting things and getting information and all that stuff. Where did you jump right into the Dublin Zoo from there? Did you bounce around?

SPEAKER_01 22:09

Oh no, I was one of those pandemic people. So I finished my PhD right in the middle of the pandemic. And if you know zoos and aquariums, none of them were hiring during the pandemic. They were just happy to be stinked completely. And at Dublin Zoo, um, they had a huge campaign because it almost closed down at the time. Oh wow. Um, but did a huge grassroots funding campaign which managed to save it. But at the time I worked in a medical school in their library department in research data management. And around a year later, the job opened up at Dublin Zoo. And right place, right time, it all just worked out, and I've been there ever since. How wonderful to land at your home zoo. Very right place, right time.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Well, and I don't want to just a quick thing. I mean, you mentioned that they almost shut down because of the pandemic, which a lot of places did shut down. A lot of places barely made it through. Dublin Zoo, correct me if I'm wrong, it is one of the oldest functioning, continuously functioning zoos right now on the planet, right? Like it's it's not the oldest, but it's one of the oldest, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 23:13

Yeah, no, we're we're close. So in um 2031, we'll celebrate our 200th anniversary. Wow. So we are the fourth oldest zoo after Vienna, Paris, London, then us. Wow. Wow, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

That's some rich history.

SPEAKER_01 23:28

It is. It's really, it's really interesting. But if you visit Dublin Zoo today, you wouldn't actually know it because we don't have a lot of historic buildings in the zoo. Um, they were kind of demolished and renovated over time. So there's only, I think, three or four like heritage buildings left on site. The rest of the site is very modern, which is really rare for a zoo of our age.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah, and that's cool too that you're still in the same footprint because sometimes especially zoos in cities, they have to move or shift a little bit. So it's kind of cool that you guys are still in the same footprint after 200 years almost.

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Yeah, it has expanded a bit. So we're in the Phoenix Park, which is uh a park in the city. And again, in the late 90s, we almost closed down because welfare standards were increasing. The footprint of the zoo hadn't increased. And at the time we worked with the government of Ireland to get extra land. So the zoo basically doubled in size overnight, and we got some funding, and we've been that way ever since. So it's been good.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Very cool. Well, before we before we wrap this up, I do want to ask you for for your insight on something. It's it's something I like to ask people in your position that you do a lot of work with people, you do a lot of work for conservation, you you understand the big picture. And I think for a lot of people that do this line of work that are in this this world of zoos and conservation, for us, we see why this is important. But I'd love to hear from you if you could share with my audience why is this type of work, why is conservation, why is this this need for coming together, whether it's zoos working together, zoos working with groups across the world, NGOs, government agencies, all of it, why is this so important?

SPEAKER_01 25:05

Wow. I mean, there's so many ways you can take that. Obviously, you could talk about the biodiversity and ecosystem services that they all provide. But I think what I found is especially being in this role and when our focus is on native species so much, that there's such an important value of biodiversity, and people really value knowing that they have biodiversity in their backyard. There's a very strong cultural links in most countries to biodiversity and wildlife, and that sense again of ownership and pride is really, really important, and I think it's one of the few ways we can actually help tackle biodiversity loss at a very individual level. And I'm not I don't I'm not a psychologist, I don't understand the mechanism behind it, but people want to know that they can go and see a wolf or a bear or a curloo in Ireland, and the idea of losing that really makes us question a lot of ourselves, I think. Um, and for us, I think it's one of the biggest drivers for protecting biodiversity, and it's almost selfish in some ways because we should want to protect it because of its inherent value, but we want to protect it for ourselves just as much, I think.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

Yeah, very well said, very well said. And I and I agree, you know, in the sense that I think I understand your qualification. I'm not a psychologist, I don't know the psychology behind it. But but that said though, you are in the mix of it. You are that conduit between your organization and the people doing the work in my CACs. You are you've done the work where you're you're interfacing with other people, different walks of life. And I think it's fair to say, people in your position, people that do the work that we've done over the years, to say, yeah, I'm not a professional psychologist or therapist. I don't understand why, but I can see it. Whether it's anecdotal or or or not, you see it all the time. There is this desire, this need to be connected to nature, to be connected to wildlife, especially that that you can identify in your own culture, in your own area. So I think that well said, sir. Well said. We just have to do it now. We just have to save everything.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Right, yeah. Well, and that's why we do what we do. That's why you're working so hard, and that's why I'm trying to get these stories out. Because yeah, we have a lot of work ahead of us. But uh, I think it's great that that you're doing what you're doing, and uh, I really appreciate you sharing the stories. Let me ask you real quick too, is there anything that we haven't covered that you feel is important for the audience to know about? Oh.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

I mean, there's there's so much. I I think the one thing the one thing I really I've been trying to champion here, and I think a lot of zoos and aquariums need to do more on, is really trying to make it an accessible career route. Um, for a lot of people, zoos and aquariums come with unpaid internships, um, long volunteer hours, and I think that adds a real barrier to bringing people into the field. And ultimately, more people means more diverse perspectives and more chances to save species. And I think what I've been trying to champion here really is more inclusive routes into conservation. Um as from working well, I'm not saying we're perfect, but I think as a community, there's so much more we can do there. And at the minute, I think that's one of the most really exciting parts of my job to me is getting those new people in who want a career in this and showing them what it can actually look like, but also being equitable at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

I love it. I I couldn't agree more in the sense of that those barriers do exist and and the fact that that is something on your radar that you're trying to help shift and change there at your zoo and talk to other zoos about. I think that's wonderful because you're right. With the diversity of different people coming in, it allows for diversity of problem solving and different eyes and different perspectives, which is how things get solved. So I love that. That's so cool, man. I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

No, thank you. We've been trying our best, but a long road to go here, even.

SPEAKER_00 28:59

Yeah, yeah, it is. It is. But someone's got to start that trek down that road, so might as well be you. That's awesome. That's awesome. So if people want to find you or get a hold of you, what's the best way? Should I put a LinkedIn link down below or what would you like?

SPEAKER_01 29:12

Yeah, sure. LinkedIn is easy. I'm always honest, I'm always sharing what we're we're doing here at Dublin Zoo.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Perfect, perfect. Well, for those who are listening and or watching, if you check the show notes, we'll have links down below to how to get a hold of Andrew and the Dublin Zoo as well. We'll have the link down there for that and in the social media too. Uh, I gotta say, I I really appreciate you taking the time. I know we had the time change difference between Ireland and here, and I know you're at the end of your very long day. So, Andrew, thank you so very much for taking the time to be on Animals Nature and View. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me. And of course, thank you, dear listeners. I appreciate you joining me and Andrew on this curious odyssey that we call Animals Nature and You. And uh, like I said during the interview, all of the links will be down below. I'll have the conservation project about the the macaques down there, Dublin Zoo, his LinkedIn, and everything else. But I just want to reflect back real quick on this conversation with Andrew and previous conversations with others doing conservation that are part of the zoo world. I spent time on social media. It's a part of promoting the podcast, but also been a big part of my history as a wildlife educator and connecting with people wherever they may be to talk about wildlife and animals. And it's it's inevitable. Occasionally you come across someone who's gonna say, I hate zoos, I hate this, I hate that, I don't like zoos, aquariums, they shouldn't exist, set all the animals free. And the reality is, much to what Andrew said, the the importance of zoos is there to connect people to the conservation that's happening and needs to happen in the wild. The zoo doing work, whether it's with the own their own Head Start program for their birds there in their own backyard at the Dublin Zoo, or the work in Southeast Asia with the macaques or anything in between and everywhere. The other side of it is too is the modern zoo is not like you think about, you know, in the 1950s or 60s and the old zoos and the concrete bunkers. There's so much work being done to elevate not only the best care where you see zoo animals now living much longer than their wild counterparts because the care is so good, but also the information that we get to learn from the species. So Head Start programs can exist. The breeding programs in zoos are there for a reason, not just to continue the lineage of the species in the zoo, but then to apply what is learned to that conservation work that is being done. And so I just want to reflect back on that because I think a lot of us in the world of zoos and conservation were like that's a no-duh. But also, I know a lot of people who are listening or watching who sometimes aren't a part of the world that we're in. And they might hear those other voices and be like, well, wait a minute, what about that? So I think I think it's worth addressing. I think it's worth reminding ourselves and reflecting back to what Andrew said about the value of that zoo conservation connection. And so much is being done. And I love Andrew's story too. The the idea that's gonna come into this as a zookeeper and ends up now being more involved with connecting people with other people to save species around the world. And that's what it's about. We have a passion, we have a love for these animals and a desire to do something, and sometimes our path takes us in different ways, and we end up doing incredible work. So, with that, we're gonna wrap it up. I do want to remind you, if you haven't already, please subscribe or follow this podcast wherever you might be watching or listening, because that way you won't miss any of the upcoming episodes. Every Tuesday we have our 10-minute Tuesdays, a short little episode focusing on a species or reflection back to our previous conversation. And then, of course, on Thursdays we have interviews like the interview we had today with Andrew. Awesome people doing awesome work all over the world. It's pretty cool stuff. Now, I do want to remind you Animals Nature New does have its own Instagram account. You're welcome to follow along there. If you want to get a hold of me, you can also go to my website, zoologyrick.com. Again, all of those links to my social media will be down below as well. So with that, we're gonna wrap it up. Have a good one, everybody.