Elizabeth Johnson on Balancing Wildlife Work and Parenthood

Elizabeth Johnson shares her journey of starting the Mothering Wildlife podcast, exploring the unique challenges faced by moms in the zoo and conservation field. Our conversation on Animals, Nature, and You covers physical, mental, and emotional challenges, societal pressures, and the importance of community support for working mothers in niche professions.

Link to Mothering Wildlife podcast
Mothering Wildlife: Telling the stories of moms who work in zoo, wildlife, vet, and conservation organizations.  Working with wildlife brings a unique set of challenges for working mothers.  Join me every other week as I interview moms working primarily in the zoo field as we discuss their journey as moms, navigating the mental, emotional, and often physical challenges that come with caring for wildlife and caring for kids.

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Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You know, some of us get really invested in the lives of our animals and emotionally we become attached to them. We're training with them. You know, we're building relationships. We're upset when they are sick. We are happy when they hit certain milestones. We have these relationships with animals that are very emotionally taxing sometimes, um, especially when we deal with death and it's an animal maybe we work closely with. And being a mom and having to be at work and deal with potentially an emergency vet situation, and maybe one that doesn't end well with the death of an animal that you really loved working with, and then having to go home to your children who don't understand what happened, and maybe they're either too young to understand or I'm Rick Schwartz, educator, public speaker, and all-around curious guy.

SPEAKER_01 0:47

Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I have worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature, and You, a podcast that explores a connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome to another episode of Animals, Nature and You. I'm your host, Rick Schwartz, and of course I am very glad you're here. This particular conversation today, I think, is very important. Whether you work in the zoo or aquarium world or you're just thinking about getting into it, whether you work in conservation or you're just thinking about getting into it, whether you are just a fan of animals and wildlife and zoos and aquariums and conservation, I think this is important. Because this conversation really focuses on the fact that there is a human element to those that do this kind of work, that have this kind of living. There is this push and pull, this tug of war that can occur between someone who is incredibly passionate about the work they do, that their their work is not just a day job, but it is very much woven into the fabric of who they are. But as their life grows and they have a family, that can sometimes cause an internal struggle, finding the energy and time and balance for raising kids, for being pregnant if you're a female, to then also still showing up with that passion and fire for your job, because it's not just a job for you. It's a way of life, perhaps. So with that, this really cool podcast exists. The Mothering Wildlife Podcast is a conversation after conversation with somebody who is a mom, who works in the zoo world, who's reaching out to other moms, from zookeeper to supervisors to managers, people who've worked their way up through the process of growing their family and getting together and having these conversations about what are some of the ups and downs, what are some of the challenges. And perhaps from the outside, you might not think this is unique, but as a dad and as someone who's worked alongside with women who have gone from being single to married to then having kids and being pregnant and everything else, I have been able to see how that can offer unique challenges. Unique not only because your body changes, but unique also because of the line of work that we are in. And so these conversations I think are very valuable and very important. So that's what we're gonna do. We're gonna talk to Elizabeth Johnson, the host of Mothering Wildlife Podcast. And she has been in the zoo field for 20 years and is a mom of two boys, so she's no stranger to being a working mother in the zoo world. And the zoo and aquarium field is filled with dedicated and passionate people, like I mentioned, that are also faced within be when it's time to become a parent, there are particular challenges, whether it's schedule, compassion fatigue, finances, work-life balance, like we also touched on too, where it's not just work and life, there's all sorts of stuff. But we'll we'll get into that in the conversation. So on her podcast, Elizabeth shares the stories of moms working in the zoo field, focusing on how they navigate caring for wildlife and caring for kids. And I might even add, there's that challenge of caring for yourself while caring for so many others. So with that, Elizabeth, I want to thank you so much for taking the time to be on the podcast and joining me here today on Animals, Nature, and you.

SPEAKER_00 4:18

I am really excited to be here. So thank you so much for allowing me to come on and talk to you.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

Well, of course. You know, like I mentioned in the intro, uh you have your own podcast, Mothering Wildlife Podcast. And I listen to quite a few episodes because there's a lot, even as a dad, that I could relate to that you cover in this podcast, the challenges of the schedule, the challenges of the income, and everything that goes with that. And then of course, I think, you know, people usually get into animal care because they are a heart-centered, caring person. So then you bring your own children into the fold. It makes it sometimes seem like a tug of war. Before we get into all that you have covered and all that you do, the community that you've created, I do want to ask, though, what was the kickoff point for this? Why, why start a podcast? Why create this community?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. I kind of felt after the birth of my second son, so I have two children. Um, I have two boys, one's 10, one is five now. But after the birth of my second son, which was during COVID, I had a good friend that I worked with at the Naples Zoo where I was, and her and I would just talk back and forth of oh my gosh, like I can't believe we're doing this job and raising kids. Like it's so hard. Uh, she was a vet, and you know, it's just a lot of caring. You're caring for wildlife. We were going home and we were caring for children. You know, we're physically demanding in our jobs and emotionally and mentally. There's just a lot going on. And so we found comfort in each other and talking to each other. And one day the idea was like, maybe we should just have a podcast about this. Maybe we just need to talk to other moms who are going through the same thing and try to build this community because they know we're not alone in this. And so we kind of talked about doing this podcast together. Ultimately, obviously it's me now, I'm solo, but um that's kind of how the idea for the podcast started was just wanting to talk to other moms who were experiencing similar things that that, you know, I was that we were at work and knowing that we weren't the only ones out there and that surely there was some sort of, I don't want to say commiserating because that sounds so negative, but surely there was some sort of way for um, you know, us to just tell our stories and to feel like we could see each other in each other's stories and share ideas and and just talk about it because there is such comfort sometimes in talking to someone else who is in a similar situation to you. So that's how it came about.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

Yeah, I was gonna say it's absolutely there's there's there is yeah, I know you were kind of shying away from the term commiserating, but but deeper than I mean it is maybe perhaps you can on the surface call it that. But I think the reality, you just you just really nailed it. It's that need to be able to recognize you're not alone in these struggles. And yet I think because it's a zookeeping world, it already feels like a very niche space that a lot of people don't understand that lifestyle. They don't understand the fact that it doesn't matter what the weather is, what the the the emergency might be, or whatever uh holiday or birthday or or celebration that normally is recognized by the rest of the populace, the animals still need the care, the animals still need the attention. And so you you've committed to doing this and you love it. But also, yeah, there's that tug of war between uh what you love with your family and your kids. So I think I can absolutely understand uh the value that you initially tapped into there with this. How many years have you been been doing this program now?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Well, so we started in 2023, is when I released the first episode. Um, and then my family and I actually moved from Florida to Texas in uh about early 2024, and so I kind of paused the podcast at that point just to kind of move halfway across the country, literally. Um, and I intended to pick it back up, you know, shortly after moving, but it ended up being a year because it turns out halfway across the country when you move your family, there's a lot of things to go on and new schedules, and it just was hard to kind of get back into it. Um, but then I started recording again and started putting out episodes again in 20 uh 25. And so now I've been back now for just about a year. I really wanted to keep it going during that time just because I was like, oh, I can do this, you know. But again, the whole point of the podcast is being a mom and being a working mom. And so I think also recognizing when you're in certain seasons of life where that's just hard and maybe some things need to be put to the side is also really important. And we talk about that on the podcast too. And you know, you hit the nail on the head earlier when you were talking about, you know, just just being in this field is so unique and special and it is such a niche field and talking to Zoom moms, which, you know, not to leave the dads out because they're definitely our dads. There's lots of different parents that are in this field, but having such a unique job and the challenges that come with a 24-7, 365-day field business, you know, it it just feels really special. And I wanted to highlight that there are really passionate, um, motivated women working in this field who are almost doing two jobs at once. Um, and it's two unique jobs, being a mom and then also in this really cool field. So that was really important.

SPEAKER_01 9:29

Yeah, I I do want to acknowledge in this field, dads have many challenges also. Of course. But you know, and and I appreciate you you mentioning that too. But the reality is anybody doing this job, male or female, knows it's incredibly physically demanding on your body. Being pregnant is incredibly physically demanding on a body. So it is unique to the mother side of things. I, from my perspective, uh having worked with women in the field who have gone from having a body that's never built another human to then having going through that process and then the other side of it, what the body goes through afterwards, uh it is unique to women in that case, you know, and and I I think that's worth acknowledging. That's part of the equation that you are tackling with your conversations and acknowledging that sometimes too, uh, I was I don't remember, I'm sorry, I don't remember the episode or the name of the lady, but she was talking about the challenges of just using the skip loader, I think it was, or a bobcat, because her belly was too big.

SPEAKER_02 10:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

She she was frustrated with that. And that's the other side of it too, then the mentally taxing side of your body telling you, no, you can't do your job right now.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 10:41

And, you know, and so there's that, there's that battle that goes on that you want to be a good mother, you want to take care of that baby in you, and yet also you want to do the job you've always done and that you love. And and again, not to discount or say it's uh less for dads when they are dealing with schedules and the care they want to bring to the home that after the an exhausting day of giving care at work. But I do see where it's different uh for the moms and and even after that, you know, your nursing and everything else.

SPEAKER_00 11:13

Yeah, it's just a different experience, you know. Um, like you said, it's not less than for dads, but it is a different experience. And I feel like on the front end of that, of the growing the baby side of it, the front end before you go off on leave, you know, that's just a different experience. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Absolutely, absolutely. And I I love again, I've only listened to a couple episodes, but I I really love the conversations and and sort of that acknowledgement that this is a unique space for moms. And I know from again, just from the dad side of it and observing co-workers that have gone through the pregnancy while at work, it there's there's also that the year or two later where I think, and and correct me if I'm wrong, I don't, you know, if if but I would assume that there's that social pressure too that is placed upon the concept of what a mom is, whether it is actually the pressure you are experiencing as a mom or the pressure you give yourself because we're raised in an environment in a society that has that expectation. It's different. What's been your experience with that?

SPEAKER_00 12:19

Moms put so much pressure and guilt on themselves that some of it is is like you said, we're doing it to ourselves. Some of it is based from society and just culturally, the way that we live here in the United States. But it it is, it does impact the way you work sometimes. Um and it can you start the minute that you're pregnant and you're at work and and you can't participate fully like you might want to, or maybe you're put on some sort of bed rest, or maybe you're told to take it easy. The guilt that you might be telling yourself, your inner dialogue can be so mean. Um, you know, when you feel like you're the weak link on a team or like you are having to um to rest and someone else has to pick up your slack. I've heard so many moms tell me that that is really hard to deal with, especially when they were very like robust prior to becoming pregnant and were physically really strong and were able to throw hay bales around and you know, get steer and and scoop all of that poop. And it's like when you realize you maybe can't do that, um, there's a lot of emotion and feelings that come with that. And a lot of that is guilt and shame. But that doesn't stop after you become a mom and it doesn't stop after you're not pregnant anymore and you know, even returning to work. Then it just transfers to feeling guilty about living your child, and then it feels guilty about the schedule accommodations that you might need as a working parent. And and so a lot of it is placed on ourselves in internally, but a lot of it does come from things that moms see on social media and you know, the way they hear other people talking about parenthood and motherhood, and and it's it's just hard to escape. I don't know that you can, but it's it's always there.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yes, I agree. I don't think it is something that you can escape because it is always there in many different formats, from an advertisement for, you know, a refreshing drink that'll put pep and mom step to you know social media expectations. But I do think that's where something like your podcast and the community that you're creating is so important because it sort of pushes that that curtain aside that is very shiny on the outside, you know, the stuff you see on Instagram, etc. That's the that's the perfect day, that's the setup, that's all that, you know, versus being having the opportunity to have these conversations. Um but it's still to your point. And I know this is from just from human behavior in general, is sometimes it's hard to get out of your own head and and be able to accept your expectations of yourself are no longer applicable. You have to adjust because your life has changed, your body has changed.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

I do want to ask you this. Oh, go ahead. No, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

No, go ahead. I was gonna say we just talk a lot about mo moms and I talk a lot about being certain seasons and how, you know, your expectations do have to change when you're in a certain season of life. When you've got a newborn, that's a certain season. Yeah. You've got to change your expectation not only towards you and your behavior and what you can accomplish in a day, but towards what your life looks like in general, what your relationship with your partner is like. You know, and then that changes six months later. It always does. And then you're in a new season with toddler hood and you're maybe kind of more homebound and can't travel as much, you know, and then that season changes, and you've got teenagers who have activities. So we talk a lot about the fact that there just are these different seasons of life and to kind of give yourself grace during those because it's not going to look like maybe what you thought it looked like, and it also is um gonna be uh ever changing. So you just kind of have to give yourself that grace and flexibility. So yeah, seasons, the season metaphor works really well for parenthood.

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And the unpredictability of season changes as the season changes, sometimes there's weird storms that occur.

unknown 15:54

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 15:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

I mean the the analogy and metaphor just goes and goes and goes on that one because it's so true. It's so true.

SPEAKER_02 16:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Um, what I wanted to ask you, because clearly you've had a lot more of these conversations than I have had. You know, again, I have worked with women who've gone through the pregnancy and and all of that, but I'm not that. I'm not that I've never experienced it myself, and I have not sat down and had these conversations like you have had. But when I was listening to one of your episodes, it made me think about that sometimes we compare ourselves to other people's experiences. In your experience, in your conversations through your journey of doing this podcast, has there ever been a time where perhaps someone's like, oh no, everything you know was fine, everything was great, versus someone else saying that there was just challenge after challenge with whatever it was, like you had mentioned having to be bedridden for the last month or whatever, where someone else is like, they're they're working up to five minutes before their water broke and they're still throwing bales and other people look at that and go, oh, well that's how it should be, or I wish I could be like that. Is there ever that dynamic? Because every pregnancy is different. Is there ever a challenge within the world of mothering wildlife where there's sometimes a false expectation because someone else had a different path?

SPEAKER_00 17:06

You know, I I think that, you know, as a host of the podcast, I try to be really open to listening to a mom's story, knowing that it could be um hard to share or that it might be a different experience from even my own. Like you don't want to go into hearing another woman's story with such a narrow lens that uh maybe ask a question that is either insensitive or or kind of um kind of puts my own opinions on display because the world of parenting is very um diverse. And even online you'll see the spectrum of opinions that can range on certain topics like sleeping and feeding and breastfeeding. So I do like to kind of go into each um, you know, kind of interview with this open mind of this woman has her own experience to tell. I want her to feel comfortable talking about certain topics that I know could be challenging because they're emotional, or maybe they bring up memories that are hard to process and she's sharing them in a very public forum. And I also want her to all to be true and to be able to share her story, knowing that others will listen to it. And maybe not every mother listening to it will have the same experience, or maybe even agree with what she's talking about, but there probably is someone that is. Yeah. And so I feel kind of almost protective of my guests and you know, making sure that they're comfortable to tell their story and their true experience, you know, because it can be really hard to speak up about what your personal experience has been as a mother, especially in the early stages with newborns, um, knowing that you might be judged and someone might not have had the same experience or might not think of it the same way.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

So absolutely. Yeah, that's you know, it is it is interesting, and that actually makes me think, is there ever been, and I let me acknowledge too, I absolutely love your approach to your guests in the sense of that recognizing their sensitivities, recognizing it's a unique situation, and you don't want to project your own stuff on there. And so with that then, I do want to ask, has there ever been a guest or a story that you were completely surprised by the situation, or it was you it was like, wow, I'd never even experienced or thought of that, never even heard that before, or is it fairly universal, uh, the experiences of the moms in the zoo world?

SPEAKER_00 19:19

I mean, a lot of it is universal. We are all dealing with the same challenges. The part that is always kind of very different, and I have heard stories surrounding like pregnancy specifically, like um things that go on during pregnancy and also birth, people giving birth and breastfeeding. That's another one. Yeah. Um, there are some things that I have heard that I'm like, wow, like that was not my experience, and I didn't even it was never thought in my mind that that was someone else's experience, where I have had I have heard things and I'm like, oh my goodness, like that was a really hard, challenging thing that she went through, and I didn't even know in my mind that that was an option. Sounds probably the wrong word, but that was something that someone could experience or have to go through. Um, so I definitely have heard those things, and then afterwards I am always so appreciative and thankful. I'm like, thank you so much for sharing that, because that can be really hard. Um, but but yeah, I definitely do hear things. It has opened up my view, kind of of pregnancy in general, motherhood in general, everything that comes with it. And it's it's really kind of like expanded my worldview on the topic because I only have my experience and and I knew that there were other moms out there, but it really I have heard a lot of things that I never maybe would have heard just talking to my own close inner circle of friends and family. But I love that. I love that I have kind of had some of my own views challenged.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

And that's that's what it's that's what it's about when you're in a community, I think, too, is being able to bring in someone else's experience and views and have yours perhaps challenged a little bit because that's where we grow. I think that's wonderful. I do want to jump into, especially for anybody in my audience. So my audience is made up of a wide variety of people and ages, some in the zoo world, some not. Someone might be listening to this. Well, I don't, you know, thinking, I don't get it, I don't understand what what the challenges are. Obviously, we've we've kind of touched on that. It's a physically challenging job. The body goes through changes. I have something that come that came to mind that that would be something perhaps someone in an office job wouldn't expect, but I don't want to, I don't want to spill those beans just yet. I wanna I want to ask you through all of this, could you sort of paint a general picture of what some of the more common challenges are for a mother in the zoo and conservation world, honestly, even aquariums too.

SPEAKER_02 21:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

What would be some of the challenges that someone faces going through the process of pregnancy to to motherhood that may not be obvious to someone outside of our world?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

I kind of think of them as being in like three buckets. There's the um physical challenges, then there's the mental challenges, and then there's emotional challenges. Um physically, we have very demanding. Demanding jobs. But, you know, within the zoo field, the physical, the physicality from one animal care specialist to the next also varies. You know, I've worked with hoof stock my whole entire career. That's a lot of work. There's a lot of hay and raking and mucking and pushing heavy wheelbarrows and throwing hay bales and grain bags, you know, 50 pounds plus around and trying to set up a barn. So there are lots of physical challenges that might differ from someone who takes care of reptiles or small mammals, but even then you've got bending and stooping. And as your belly gets larger, it's hard to do those things and that aspect of our job, climbing ladders, working with hot wire. I got zapped by hot wire when I was early in my pregnancy with my second child was containing a tiger. So, you know, it it they those things that you don't think about at a corporate job or an office job that you're exposing yourself to as a pregnant woman in the workplace at a zoo or aquarium. The aquarium, that's another really great one. I've talked to some aquarium moms. You know, they do a lot of diving, which they're not allowed to do when they're pregnant. A lot of their procedures, vet procedures are in the water. And so they're dealing with um, you know, certain meds that are within the water that they can't be then be in the water. So it's it's those types of little things that I try to highlight sometimes on the podcast of what is going on physically. But that, you know, that's just one of the columns. Mentally and emotionally, when you care for any other living being, whether it's, you know, nurses caring for humans or us caring for wildlife, you are always going to have lots of feelings that are surrounding caring for that individual. You know, some of us get really invested in the lives of our animals and emotionally we become attached to them. We're training with them. You know, we're building relationships. We're upset when they are sick, we are happy when they hit certain milestones. You know, we we have these relationships with animals that are very emotionally taxing sometimes, um, especially when we deal with death and it's an animal maybe we work closely with. And being a mom and having to be at work and deal with potentially an emergency vet situation, and maybe one that doesn't end well with the death of an animal that you really loved working with, and then having to go home to your children who don't understand what happened, and maybe they're either too young to understand, or it's just not something you're sharing with your family. But to have those emotions and to feel like you maybe need to set them aside for a bit so you can just fulfill your duties as mom, that's really, really hard in trying to have that grieving process broken up almost by having to care for children. And, you know, mentally, just moms have a, they have a mental load. They've got a checklist. Let's be real, that a lot of times are keeping in their heads and often surrounding kids, it has to deal with activities and doctor's appointments and you know, getting new shoes because you recognize this morning that your kids' toes are sticking out, you know, stuff like that. It's like, okay, I've got that on the checklist now. I need to pay attention to it. Um, you know, as your kids get older, a lot of it comes with helping to manage their own little social lives and play dates and making sure that school is going well and they're not having trouble. So it's just a lot that um within this field, I think, is just exacerbated by the fact that we're caring for living animals and that part of your job is hard to turn off. Um, work-life balance is a huge buzzword that we throw around. And um I just spoke to uh just an interview yesterday, and we talked a lot about this of is it even really a balance? And is that something that you can just leave work at work and then leave home at home? And I don't think you can, you know, our personal lives are important and they often sometimes bleed into work and sometimes work bleeds into home life, and that's just the way it is. But you know, in terms of being in this field, it really is the crutch of it is the fact that we're caring for living human, not human, but living beings, and and that takes um a certain toll on you mentally and emotionally and physically.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

So yeah, and just to re-emphasize what you mentioned there is on that emotional side of things, it it is, and you you, you know, you said living human, but then corrected yourself because they're not humans. But I think that's important. That little slip of words error does highlight the fact for anybody who is not in this field, who does not or has not started in this journey yet of working with animals, the relationship we have with the animals in our care, they are extended family. You can't get around that.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:30

You are with them sometimes more than you are with your own family because you're with these animals during the waking hours and caring for them and you know everything about them. Some of them you get to see from the day they're born to the day they have their own kids. And it is an extended family. And so it's almost like you go from caring for your family at home to caring for your family at work. And yes, I think most people can recognize my personal life sometimes bleeds into my work. You have a bad breakup or you have a joyous moment in your relationship, you have whatever. You tell your coworkers, like, oh, congratulations, your kid's graduating from fifth grade, whatever it might be, right? But then the other side of that, I think for for a corporate job, for a job where you're you're interfacing with like and nothing against insurance, but just say you're you're you work for an insurance company, rarely, unless there's some sort of office drama, is that going to spill into your personal life and disrupt your personal life? Whereas a sick animal, uh an injured animal, a new birth, a possible passing away, that that takes its emotional toll on you, and it is very hard to compartmentalize that and leave it at work. And and to your point, work-life balance, is there really such a thing? To me, in my my opinion, in my experience, when I I I sit with that, and having been in the business for 30 plus years, I think we I think what has to, or at least let me say this. What worked for me it was stepping back and recognizing that it's not work-life balances and those are the only two things you're balancing. It is you have a life, and work is a part of many components of your life. And we can we need to, or at least for me, I needed to be able to say that is one portion, that is one sixth or one eighth of my life. There's there's so much more to me than just that. But I will say too, as a as a zookeeper, as someone in that field, it does so very much become a part of our personal identity, not just work. It is a work of passion, it's a work of you're you're with family. It it it becomes deeply interwoven. So that is challenging. And I appreciate that you are taking this podcast and and having these conversations, not only are they important for those you're interviewing, I'm sure, but also for those who get to listen. I think it's really wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

We do talk about the identity piece a lot because, like you said, um this field is a field of passion, and the people in it love what they do, and they got into it because they love animals and conservation and and they they feel like that is such a big piece of their identity and who they are. Similarly, when you become a mom, that also is very much an identity. And, you know, you embrace this identity of mother. I mean, biologically, there's so many changes that happen in the brain when you become a mom that you literally aren't the same person you were prior to having children. Whether you like it or not. I mean, you physically, biologically, you're not. You're you've got more, you've got, you know, the cells of your children in your blood and your brain is different. It's changed. Hormones do crazy things. But that motherhood identity is so strong, is similar in my brain to the identity of becoming a zookeeper.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

Right.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Um, you know, and and a lot of the conversation surrounding the beginning of this podcast with friends and family was I almost feel like these two identities are clashing. And I don't know how to make them merge a little bit because it does feel like I'm just swinging back and forth between two different people because these two identities are so strong, like in my mind. Um, and for some women, it's really hard to grapple with those identities. And then, you know, when you throw in the thought of motherhood being maybe a reason for leaving the zoo field and leaving behind that zoo keeper identity, then you've got you opened up a whole new can of worms. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

And and I I really like how you said that, where it's almost like there's this, there's two different people that you're trying to be at the same time. And I totally get that in the sense that I know going into the zoo field early on, it was what do I need to do to be a good zookeeper? What do I need to learn? How do I need to show up? What do I need to be able to do on the job? And so you're always kind of checking in with yourself. What do I what can I do to improve? Well, am I being a good zookeeper? Am I really taking care of this animal properly? And then I gosh, how many times do we beat ourselves up if we miss one little thing? Whether it was a bad stool or you know, whatever it might be, you're like, oh, I can't believe I missed that. Oh, that's so, you know, and we beat ourselves up because we're not we in our mind, we're not being a good zookeeper. Now, you bring in parenthood, and especially, like you said, as a mother, so much changes in you, you're constantly checking in. Am I being a good mom? Am I being a good parent? Is this congruent to my expectations of being a good parent? And so, how how could it not create a situation where these things are at odds? Because you need to be on call 24-7 for your kids, and you need to be on call 24-7 for your animals, and they don't live in the same place. Right, right, exactly. Yeah. So yeah. So since you mentioned burnout, it what and I'm sure that comes up. I know it came up a couple of times in the episodes I listened to. What are some of the things that you have discovered about helping to manage burnout in these in these conversations you've had?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Well, uh, I think that we need more conversation about it for maybe parents in general and moms, um, and how you can kind of manage it within your personal life as it pertains to work and vice versa. It's hard because you you just you can't physically live these two roles at 100% all the time. Um and you will get burnt out because it's it's just impossible. Uh you know, in my own life, I try really hard to try to be present where I am at that physical moment in time. And that does seem to help. Um, you know, if I'm at work, I'm at work and I'm trying really hard to um, you know, dedicate my time and energy and thoughts to that. And when I'm at home, I try really hard to be present with my kids because ultimately I don't want me not being present to kind of contribute to that feeling of burnout. And I'm trying to catch up and I'm trying to do it all, and I just can't, and and then it spirals from there. But burnout is is tricky. And you know, there are some great organizations within the zoo field like Grays that that address um this topic with entire with animal care professionals and and how to kind of recognize the signs and what you can do to try to kind of um mitigate that and to help your thoughts. But um I think I think just having the conversation about it and talking more about it, especially in in this field and and with moms in general and and kind of you know supporting those who maybe are recognizing certain signs of burnout is is the most important thing that you can do. But I don't know that there's an easy kind of, you know, I wish there was a nice, easy solution. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:23

Yeah. Well I think I totally understand it. Yes, I think we wish there's there was a quick bippity bopity-boo, and it's all taken care of. But that's the I think that's the the the the I think that's what makes burnout sort of that slippery fish is it's different for everybody and it can be different one month for you as it is on another month, because it depends on what's going on, what the history is there too. So yeah, I you know, I I do agree. I think it's that opportunity to talk about it, to converse about it, to share individual experiences and listen to other experiences that is so important. Uh I know for for me, it is also acknowledging and just admitting I've overextended myself. I need to stop what I'm doing. This is not working for me. What I'm doing is not working for me. And and I think that was for me, that when when I hit my big sort of wall a couple years back, well, gosh, more than a couple years back now. But anyway, time flies. Um but it was really just that finally admitting I cannot, I cannot work at this pace anymore in the sense of work, I can't exist at this pace anymore, that there's too much and I need to stop, take care of myself, and ask for help and reassess my priorities because burnout leads to health issues. And once that goes, once you've once you've lost your health, you can't show up anymore for your animals or for your family like you have been trying to push yourself to do. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very important topic in this field. I'm actually really glad that the field in general has trended toward um mental health support for animal care specialists and and people who are working, not just the animal care specialists, but you know, you've got all sorts of roles within the zoo field because I think it's it's time to recognize that this is a unique field and role that most people play, and there's a lot more to it, and and we need a little bit of support sometimes and to talk about it in order to kind of process what we're doing day to day in our job.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

So Right Absolutely, absolutely. Because another big one, parent or not, compassion fatigue.

SPEAKER_02 35:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 35:17

And so you take that as as being something that I think everybody at some point in time experiences in the zookeeping and com and conservation world. Uh for uh that's a whole nother topic. We're not going to go down. Exactly. But it's a whole nother episode. But but just saying that that is a component of that line of work anyway. And so you're going to hit that eventually. So now when you hit compassion fatigue, for whatever reason it might be in your career, now also being a parent where you have those responses, you have to show up that way, it it can be challenging. I know, I know plenty of people in the field where it's also taken toll on personal relationships, not even as a parent, you know. But then you throw in that responsibility and expectation of being a good parent too, and it adds so much more to that equation. I just, you know, I think your podcast and your approach here and the conversations you've been having is just is so needed. It's such a needed component. I'm really glad you're doing it. If people wanted to, I'll obviously have in the episode notes how to find your podcast. And uh you included also uh your social media. Is there anywhere else you'd like to direct people to or other things? You'd mentioned Grays. Is there anything else as far as tools or or resources that you would like to share?

SPEAKER_00 36:30

You know, Grays is a great resource. They um, I believe at one point in time even had um some conversations surrounding parenthood. But, you know, I I really try to, you know, direct most of my guests and try to build this community online on Instagram. Um, you know, the parenting community is huge. Um, but you know, we're trying really hard to keep it specific to like Zoom so that, you know, there is kind of that like relativity. There's there's uh a little bit more understanding. So, you know, finding the podcast on Instagram is a great way to kind of follow around with other people who are within that community and and as well as Facebook, but I'm trying to push it over to Instagram. Um, and you know, listening to the podcast, I've had so many moms actually email me or message me and say, I just listened to such and such episode and I was crying because I felt so seen. And you know, I just yeah, or I just felt like, you know, even before I had children, I listened to the podcast because I was just curious what I was getting myself into and I wanted to hear what other moms in the field had to say. And so I kind of knew a little bit about what I was doing. I had another mom tell me that she decided to have a second child because she listened to the podcast and she thought she could do it because she'd heard other moms talk about it. So I mean, just listening to that podcast, I think, is a great resource, and not just because I'm the host of it and I make it, but like truly, I know that it is important to other people. Yeah, it was just because of the feedback I've received.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

So yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, I think it's a great resource. And I just remember, you know, when I was when I was listening to the episodes, it made me kind of recall back in my mind. So I was a zookeeper from at the for what two officially zookeeper title from 2000 to 2010. And then was still working with other zookeepers and animal behaviorists then for another however many years has been 16 or whatever. Uh, and then prior to that, in animal care, not as a zookeeper, but uh working with domestic animals and then working with uh a group of birds as a wildlife specialist. And it your stories and what I was listening to made me recall those moments where I was working with somebody who was going through pregnancy or someone who was uh, you know, had a toddler who was having to be picked up from preschool early because they bit somebody or whatever, you know, and those challenges that occur and how hard that has to be. And then again, too, my own experiences as a as a parent, but uh, having not gone through pregnancy, I know it's completely different. And I can even uh try and pretend that that I have a grasp of that experience.

SPEAKER_00 38:58

Because you guys have, I mean, there's there's challenges all around, like we talked about. And even if you're not the birthing person, like there's you're still in it, you're still living it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

Well, and then one thing that you had brought up about people listening to it before they got pregnant, I do want to ask you as we kind of wrap this up, if you could give a nugget of advice for anybody either starting their journey into the zookeeper world that also knows eventually they want a family, or somebody who is in the zookeeping world who is now really seriously considering starting a family, what would be a nice nugget of of advice that you would would like to share with them from something you've learned and all you've done so far?

SPEAKER_00 39:36

I mean, I think the best thing to tell someone is that if if you want to be a parent, if you want to be a mom, do it. Try to try to shut out all of the chatter surrounding being a working mom. I know that sounds counterintuitive to what we try to do on the Mother and Wildlife podcast, but there's so much chatter in the world about doing it right and doing it at the right time and making sure your finances are in order and making sure, you know, we're not millionaires in this field. If you want to be a mom, do it. It's not impossible. There are plenty of working moms out there. You need to just be cognizant of um what you are getting into and your expectations for yourself and what your life might look like afterwards and what your life is as a working mom. Um, but don't like overthink it. I guess that's what I'm trying to say is don't don't overthink it. Don't do your deep dive rabbit hole researches. Just do the thing, you know, have the children if you want to have the children. There's plenty of support out there in the field and out of the field, you know, even with family and friends to help you through this season of life. Um, but just don't try to overthink it because we get so caught up in whether these these big decisions and and whether we should do the thing or not. And um, and that can sometimes just give us, you know, decision paralysis. But yeah. Yeah. Just do it. Know what you're getting into, but just do it.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Right, right. Well, I I love that. And I I appreciate what you're doing with this podcast. And and I think it's an important conversation that is right up there with the importance of having conversations around burnout and compassion fatigue and all of that, because it is a big thing. It it you said it so well. It's this tug of war between being a good mom and and being a good zookeeper and and what are our own personal expectations on that and and everything else. So I I really appreciate that you are having these conversations and you've created this space where this this community can show up and learn from each other and share and and I will say commiserate, because sometimes you've got to you've got to commiserate.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Sometimes you have to.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

To also then appreciate the fact that you aren't alone in what you're going through. So I think that's wonderful. I I just can't thank you enough for all that you're doing, and I hope that you continue to get the feedback because I know a lot of times in podcasting we're just broadcasting out, and you never know the impact unless someone takes the time to write a note or an email. So I'm glad you are getting that feedback, and I hope you continue to get more of it because I do think this is an important topic, especially for the field of zookeeping and and those that are in the aquarium world as well.

SPEAKER_00 42:03

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for saying that. And also thank you for having me on so that I can, you know, share the good world about being a mom in this in this field and and to talk a little bit about it. I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yeah. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And real quick for anybody listening who maybe can't check the show notes right now, what is the Instagram handle?

SPEAKER_00 42:21

You can find us at mothering wildlife. Um, and then also I have Gmail, um, motheringwildlife at gmail.com is the best way to get in touch with me.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

So perfect, perfect. And I will have all of that information in the show notes below. So uh again, Elizabeth, thank you so very much for taking the time to be on Animals Nature and You.

SPEAKER_00 42:38

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

And of course, thank you, dear listeners. As always, I appreciate you joining me on this curious odyssey that we call Animals Nature and You. And I do hope this conversation with Elizabeth, uh, whether you're in the zoo and aquarium world or just thinking about it, or you're a parent or not, I do hope this conversation with Elizabeth and discussing her podcast, Mothering with Wildlife, has given you a little insight and something to consider and think about the people behind the scenes at zoos and aquariums and even in conservation. It is a very different world to work in. It is absolutely one of passion and one that we love. And I think that's why there is that push-pull sometimes. When you're growing your life, you get into a relationship, you you grow a family, you are also passionate about that too. And it's not that there anyone in this world is looking for special treatment on these things. It is just acknowledging, perhaps even for ourselves, that it's important to realize the unique experience, the unique situation, and I'd have to even say the very, very important part of taking care of ourselves so we can keep taking care of our kids and our animals and everything else that's our responsibility. You know, it's that work-life balance we talked about. I do stand by what I said in the interview. It is our life, and work is a component. It's not either or, it's not a work-life balance. There is your friends, there's your family, you know, and your kids, whether, or maybe you don't have kids, your dogs and cats at home. Uh, there's your personal health and your well-being. Uh, there's being mindful of your finances. There's all of these things that are part of our life. And like Elizabeth said, there are seasons where we have to focus on one part, focus on another. And those seasons are always changing. And there's value in recognizing that. There's value in having conversations around that. And so I do encourage you to go check out her podcast, connect with her on Instagram. As always, the links are down below. You can find all the information in the show notes, whether you're watching on YouTube or listening on the podcast player. If you want to get a hold of me, you can of course get my links down below. Zoologyric.com is my website. You can also click on get uh send fan mail. Excuse me, if you're listening to this podcast on a podcast player, the very first link at the top is send fan mail. So if you don't do social media, you don't want to connect on Instagram or anywhere else, you can go ahead and connect with me right there. If you do want to connect to Instagram, Animals Nature New does have its own Instagram handle too, so you can check that out if you want. So with that, right before we wrap this up, I do want to remind you, if you haven't already, please hit subscribe or follow wherever you're listening or watching. That way you are sure to catch the next episode. We have our 10-minute Tuesdays, which is a solo episode, talking about a fun fact or animal species, just me coming in around 10 minutes on that episode. And then every Thursday, just like this episode, an awesome interview with an awesome person doing amazing work. So with that, we are gonna wrap it up now. Have a good one, everybody.