The Emotional Cost of Loving Animals for a Living Pt.2

(Part 2 of 2)

Most animal care professionals face grief that’s often silenced or overlooked. What if understanding and embracing this grief could actually transform how we care, both for the animals and ourselves? Brigid Dodge, a former dolphin trainer turned grief coach, shares the raw truths about the hidden toll of working with animals and how loss shapes us in ways we’re often unprepared for.

In this powerful episode, Brigid opens up about her journey from marine mammal training to coaching professionals through grief and burnout. She explores how grief isn’t a linear process and how cultural norms in the animal care industry can make it even harder to express or process loss. You'll discover: how guilt, identity shifts, and rituals play crucial roles in healing, and why many of us are woefully underprepared for the emotional aftermath of loss. Brigid also shares practical tools, including simple rituals and goal-setting strategies, that help cope with the chaos of grief and burnout.

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Website: Literally Working Through It
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Studies mentioned in this episode:
Zoo professionals and volunteers... burnout, mental health and animals loss (published paper)
Mental Health for Zoo Professionals (video presentation)

Find Rick here:
ZoologyRick.com

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Podcast Music: Positive Carefree Folk Pop
Artist: Burgberg
Used with Full Music Standard Lic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:05

I'm Rick Schwartz, educator, public speaker, and all-around curious guy. Over the years, my curiosity and experiences, along with the many people I have worked with, revealed to me we all have a desire to feel connected to the natural world. You're listening to Animals, Nature, and You, a podcast that explores a connection between animals, nature, and humans. A podcast that celebrates learning more, following our curiosity, and reconnecting with the natural world. Welcome back to part two with our conversation with Bridget. This is part two. So if you have not watched or listened to part one, please go back. It came out yesterday, first thing. This is the follow-up to finish the conversation that was just too good to edit down into a shorter episode. And I recognize sometimes it's easier to consume two shorter episodes than one very long one. So with that, we're gonna pick up right where we left off from part one. So you don't miss anything. We're gonna skip doing a hook and an intro. We're just gonna jump right into it. So here it is, part two conversation with Bridget.

SPEAKER_01 1:08

You know, everybody will have their own way of communicating what's going on. But I do encourage people, if you feel safe enough to do so, if someone has earned the right to hear your story, to share what you're going through. Because, you know, it's if no one knows that you're experiencing a loss and you like go excuse yourself and go to the walk-in freezer for like 10 minutes, they're like, where's Bridget? Oh my God, we're not. But then if, you know, if you, if you, if you're like, hey, I just, I mean, I need a minute, let me, and then you go to the walk-in, then someone knows, like, okay, I know, I know what Bridget's going through. She's told me that she's taking a minute. I'm gonna allow her that because, you know, I have the context that's needed. And not everyone's able to do that. It depends on how supportive your employer is. It oftentimes depends on how supportive your family members are. Um, but if you have that opportunity to share a little bit of context of what you're going through, you will you will be surprised the number of people who want to support you and help you in any way that they can.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Yeah. And on the other side of that, I would offer up again to anybody listening who is in a position where you might have someone you work with, work for, or even related to that is going through some version of grief, and they do open up to you. They do take the risk to share this is what I'm going through. I found from being on the sharer side of it and on the sharing side of it, uh, either side of it, um, that sometimes you, if you don't know what it's like to have lost a parent or go through a significant change in your life, or lose a job suddenly to a layoff or whatever. One of the best things you can say, I think, and uh would love your insight on this, but for me, I found is if they they've never been through it. They're like, look, I I don't know what that's like, but I can tell for you, this is really hard, and I'm here for it. I'm I'm telling me more about what this is like. Because I think some of the more challenging things someone could say is, oh, you know, it it you'll you'll get through this. You know, though it's always the the darkest before the the dawn, or you can, you know, we'll weather every storm. There's a lot of great cliches that are said that are meant to come from a good place. One of the ones that I almost punched someone in the face, this too shall pass. And and yeah, I know that's a fact. I've lived long enough to know that it will, but that doesn't help me right now. I need to feel what I'm feeling. And I know the person said it in a way of trying to console and help. And I and I knew consciously enough to not get angry, but also recognize in the moment, yeah, that didn't help. And and so really I think being present and being honest about your side of it as a receiver, whether it is, I I've never been through this, so I I don't know, but I can tell it's a lot for you. So share more with me. Or if you've been through it, you can say, I don't know your exact experience. This is what it was like for me. Does that sound familiar? You know, and because you're opening up that opportunity to be present with that person, versus here's a little packaged saying that I heard once that's supposed to make you feel better. So I would love your input on that, your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yeah. So I hold um a certification. I'm trained in Brene Brown's Dare to Lead program, and that's where a lot of my leadership stuff comes from. But she has a wonderful phrase that empathy is about sitting with someone in the darkness. It's not about rushing to turn on the light. And I think that a lot of us, while we mean well when we try to say things like, oh, look on the bright side or everything happens for a reason. That's I think that is an in part an effort on our end as the receiver to discharge that discomfort that we're feeling. Because when someone shares that they've lost something or they're grieving something, that reminds us that we will lose things, that we are currently grieving things. And those, those are hard feelings to sit with, let alone sit with someone who is experiencing them. And so I really love what you said in terms of just saying thank you for sharing with me. I don't understand exactly what you're going through. Um, but the the thank you alone almost acknowledges like, hey, you've shared something with me that you didn't have to share. Like you have seen me as a person who is safe enough to offer this information to. Um and I want to honor that. Because the other thing that I think people try to do is they try to relate and connect in some way. You know, if I I think I, I don't remember what appointment I was at, but I was like, I said something among the lines of like, yeah, I lost my brother recently. And this girl was like, Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I lost my cat. And I'm like, I don't, I don't deny that losing your cat was awful for you. Lord knows if I lost, like when I lose my cat, like that will destroy me. I already know that. She is my little baby. But just there, those are called empathy misses, right? There's it's a moment where you're trying to connect, but it comes off as, you know, making it about you, or it comes off as insensitive. And so sometimes the the greatest gift you can give a griever is just allowing them to be exactly where they are.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

Well, I do want to add to that then the you know, mentioning that your brother passed and so on, so I lost my cat. Yeah, the empathy miss. I found myself in a similar situation that it may not be an empathy miss, but often when I would share with people who didn't know my my dad passed or didn't know other things that happened in my life had happened and that came up, and I had to then share with them, and that was the first they heard of it, they would then, oh, I'm so sorry. And they would do the natural thing, which is to share, they are being empathetic and I'm sad for you. But I also then found myself at times, because I in that moment didn't want to deal with the grief or deal with I like it's it's been three months since it happened, and I'm kind of just trying to be in this space right now, enjoying this space. I found myself compelled to console them over my grief.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

And that was such a frustrating position to find myself in. And I and what and it became a compounded frustration because then I got mad at myself. Because, well, they're just trying to be nice, Rick. Come on, they're just trying to show you that they care. Why are you gonna be a jerk about it? But it was like, but I don't want to have to console them over my grief, you know? So is that a thing? Like, is that common?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

That is a hundred percent a thing. It's very common. And again, it goes back to us as human beings not wanting to sit in the discomfort. And I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna dismiss that in any sort of way because you know, that's we're neurologically hardwired to avoid discomfort. That was a survival mechanism for us. And so it's a natural response to see something that doesn't feel good and say, like, oh, I'm I wanna, I wanna keep my distance from that. But you know, one of the one of the cliches is the only way out is through. And the other thing I like to sometimes think about is when we talk about emotion, I like to think of them as as energy in motion, emotion that has to move, it has to go through. And so if you are feeling that, like, ooh, you know, this this is this hits too close to home, or I don't know what to say. So many people do say nothing because they're afraid of saying the wrong thing. And I think that that is it's a valid instinct, but I think that you still want to make sure that you're reaching out in a way that acknowledges the other person, even by saying, like, I don't know what this, I don't know what you're going through, but I just want to let you know that you're on my heart, that I'm thinking about you. You know, a lot of people talk about after a loss, another thing that they grieve is they grieve relationships that they thought were different than what they become. You know, there are a lot of people who, when you are going through grief, because they themselves can't grapple with it or don't want to grapple with it, they kind of they back off, they distance themselves, they they don't show up for you in the ways that you would have hoped that they would show up for you in times of grief. Um and, you know, your higher self can maybe be like, oh, well, they're on their own journey, but that doesn't negate the pain that you feel that then adds to the grief. Like not only are you grieving this one very substantive loss, but you're grieving so many secondary losses that kind of come with that, whether that be the loss of a support system, whether that be the loss of a particular community. Like there are ripple effects in grief that we don't necessarily prepare ourselves for. Not that you can prepare yourself for grief whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Yeah. But I I think if I may jump in real quick, I think we have an idea from society around us and the experiences we see others going through. We have an idea of what it must, what it must be like to lose a family matter. What it must be like to get fired. Like, what would I do if that happened to me where I was fired, or the company just imploded and everyone was out of jobs, or what if what if I went through a divorce? What would what would I do? What would that be like? And I think there's there's certain elements we can foreshadow, we can create a version that we believe might be reality. But one of the things I have found in my experiences of going through grief and talking to others, the biggest, oh, I didn't know that was a thing, is the grief of your identity. So going back to what you said, where it's like that that portal shot you into a new timeline, that portal's now closed, you're on a new timeline, you can't ever go back. Part of that new timeline is your new identity. Whether you've lost a spouse or a parent or a sibling, you're no longer that person with that person in your life. You know, um, the example, my mom went from being married to being a widow. That is a new identity. That's a new form to fill out for taxes. That's a new box to check whenever you're filling stuff out. And and that's the first time she's ever had to do that. And and for me, I I got laid off back in September. That was a new identity for me to go from being so attached to 25 years of being at this organization with a certain title, doing a certain thing every day, to now that is no longer what I do. Or who I am, or what do I what do you do for work? What's your job? It's no longer that. And so there's that shift of identity that's part of the grief because there's a subconscious part of you that grieves you're no longer that, whether you liked it or not, whether you were comfortable with that title or not, there's still a grief process around that as part of the whole package, which I think, again, going back to like I think some people can kind of I don't want to say fantasize, but like, you know, mentally prepare. What would I do if I was in that situation? What would it be like? But there are a lot of nuanced parts that you don't even think about that completely take you off guard. And you and you have to almost learn that about yourself as you're dealing with the emotions.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

Yeah. In terms of like the learning, grief is what kind of fast tracks that.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Because it's like you don't have any other choice but to figure it out. There's there's no other option for you. Even even in recovery spaces, that's something that people are taught when they go to rehab is you know, you are going to have to grieve a lot of your past life because things are not going to show up in the same way that they did. So it goes back to that definition of grief being that natural normal response to any change. And every change is going to look different, and therefore every grief is going to look different. And the way that you integrate each loss and each change is going to look different.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Yeah. Yeah. So I want to. Well, there's two two more things I definitely want to cover. So we're going to come back to this one, but and we'll but we'll go. And there's a there's a method to my magistrate, so I don't forget. I want to talk the second one first, real quick. I want to discuss with you the process you help people walk through when you because it's coaching and therapy are different, obviously. And and they're you're trained differently as a coach versus a therapist. Both are very valuable things to have in your life. I've had therapists and coaches, I've had multiple therapists, because everyone has their skill set, and it's important to learn these things about ourselves and have the right people in those positions. So I do want to come to eventually some of the things you would help as a coach. What is it that you offer and do for people dealing with loss and grief, not only in what we've talked a lot about, which is family members or um, you know, the human side of it, but also I want to bring it back to the animal care side because I think there's an element of grief that is rarely discussed as you experience, you have three to five days, or have I experienced, you say goodbye to an animal, you turn around and you're doing a presentation the next moment. And there was never, in my experience, and I don't think it was out of callousness, I think it was more out of just this is how it's always been done, and so this is how we deal with it is by not dealing with it. It's part of the job. These aren't your animals, anyways. The animals belong to the facility you work for, you're hired to take care of them. And so you're you're kind of just pushed through the process of I'm caring for them and I'm not supposed to grieve and not be sad. And the people that you work for tend to be older than you, so they come from a generation that even it was more callous and cold, and that's how they were trained to deal with it. And so that's the only thing they know to train you to deal with. So I want to also then not only end on talking about what you offer up as a coach and how you work with people, but I want to jump first into the animal care side of it and recognizing a lot of the audience that we have for this podcast, and your experience also comes from the animal side of things, where many of us go to work day in and day out, year after year. We say goodbye to an animal and we have to figure out some version of paying a tribute, of having a grieving moment, of whatever that might be. And every facility is different too on what they allow for social media, what they want released or not released. Some facilities, they themselves will hold a social media posting about, you know, please leave your comments and you know how this what this animal meant to you, others, the animal pastors, you never, you you'd act like they were never there. All of us have different experiences with this on the animal care side of stuff. So those in the animal care world, I would I would like to ask you, what's the best thing we can do? I mean, we did talk about making space for it, give yourself those 10 minutes. But what would be some of the avenues you could explore when you do have to clock in the next day after an animal passes and clean out their cage and clean out their bedding and wash their dishes for the last time and prep the habitat for a new animal that's got to go in there because we can't have empty habitats.

SPEAKER_01 17:46

Yeah. I'm really glad that you brought this up. So back in 2023, there was a study done uh in partnership with the Denver Zoo and Colorado State University, and they looked at burnout, mental health, and grief in terms of animal care professionals, and specifically people in the zoo and aquarium industry, because there's very limited research on animal care workers in particular. There are some things that we know. We know that veterinarians have a higher rate of suicide than the average, you know, the average occupation. We know that people that work in animal shelters develop PTSD at five times the national average. We know some of those things, but those are very, that's a that's a very broad scope. And there's some about working at a zoo and aquarium that is very niche. And one of the things that this study found was that resilience is correlated with what they call perceived organizational support. And that is how does your specific facility support through this grief process? And it's perceived, right? Like someone in HR could be like, oh my gosh, we have all of these great things. But if that's not landing for a person, they're not gonna perceive that they have support. And so a lot of this has to come from operational changes to a certain extent. But one of the things that people there were two things that people requested more of. They requested more communication, whether that be communication on how an animal's doing after a transfer, because that's its own loss. And a lot of times an animal moves and it's like, okay, bye. But people have a relationship with that animal. They wonder how that animal is doing. They wonder, and you know, it falls on the person to be like, let me friend someone on Facebook who's a keeper at this other zoo that keeps, you know, that actually works with this animal so that I can message them every once in a while. Um, so that's something that an organization can do is an organization can actually be both um proactive in their communications around losses, but also be more communicative and bring people into the fold in terms of what um and I and I understand that like every facility is different. There are different hierarchies. It's you probably don't aren't going to feasibly be able to take everyone's input into account. Like there are just that's just the world of animal management, right? Like some decisions have to be made. Um, there's this idea of horizon conflict where if you're higher up on the ladder, you see a wider horizon. There's different things that you have to take into account when making decisions that maybe like an intern or a volunteer doesn't have visibility into. So I do want to honor that. But an organization can definitely certainly be more communicative in even acknowledging that these are losses and that it's going to affect people. And then the other thing that has shown to directly correlate with resilience is ritual. And that is something that, yes, it's great if an organization can do it on their own, but that's something that we ourselves can cultivate. If that means that you take a minute to say, like, you know, to to touch the door of the enclosure and say, like, you know, I loved this animal. I shared so many good moments with this animal. And just like, maybe every time you walk into that enclosure, you touch that door as a reminder of like, hey, I remember the last time, the last animal that was in here and how much I love this animal. Being able to ritualize grief is a way that. helps our brain integrate that into our everyday life. And that is what helps us become more resilient. So those are the things, those are two of the things that the the study showed can have a really, a really great impact.

SPEAKER_02 22:18

The ritual side of it I think is important for us as humans. And it's funny how many people in the animal care world can recognize things like elephants having their ritual or orcas having their rituals around the passing of a member of the pod or the herd. But we don't give ourselves that same acknowledgement. Now, albeit there are those that do have an understanding of rituals around death. But sometimes it's reserved only for humans. Whether it's a funeral process or a wake or whatever spiritual or religious beliefs they may have, give them those rituals. But I I I really like how you said that, whether it's figuring out okay I'm going to touch the door and say some words and then every time I walk by this door or whatever it might be, I think there's such great value in honoring the memories, honoring the connection through a simple ritual. Uh and at first sometimes it can feel awkward or painful because there's a lot of sadness involved with that. But I I do believe it's part of that process, whatever that ritual might be for each individual, it could be there's so many different versions of it. And I don't think there's any right way or wrong way that to what you said earlier. It's as it's as long as you're not hurting anybody or yourself, it's the right way.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

So I I love that you brought that up because I think it's something that's a value to share with those, especially those who might be experiencing loss for the first time in the workplace of an animal that they've they've had a partnership with or connection to. Or you are witnessing someone going through that and you see them do a version of their ritual yeah have some grace for them you know and honor that that's what they need and that that that be happy that they found that because sometimes from the outside we don't understand what someone else is processing or how they're processing. So I really, I really thankful that you brought that up.

SPEAKER_01 24:16

Yeah. And I, you know two points. One is understanding that what you need is not what someone else needs.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

You know, there are some people who really need a hug and there are some people who are like please don't touch me at all.

SPEAKER_02 24:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

And so understanding that that people are going to need different things at different times and allowing space for that. But also the importance of ritual comes in as you get further and further away from that loss event because that's one of the things that we grieve is we grieve that time as it gets wider and wider between life with that thing and life without that thing. And ritual having a ritual around that loss can instantly help you reconnect to that thing. And you can draw on that ritual for years to come. You can reconnect with that thing that you love for years to come through that active ritual. And so not only does it serve you in the very acute grief in that moment, but that will continue to serve you down the line.

SPEAKER_02 25:25

Absolutely and that goes true also what we briefly touched on earlier is animal moves. That is a unique experience of grief I think in the business of animal care in that zoos and aquariums and other like facilities often will move animals around for population management or for breeding purposes, genetic diversity within the the zoos. And we can rationalize that this needs to happen. It's important for the species or for the individual sometimes it may not seem like it's justified enough to the individual caretaker, but to your point, someone higher up on the ladder sees a different horizon. So I think having those rituals around the loss and recognizing the grief around the loss of an animal that isn't gone from the planet, but is gone from your life for whatever reason. And with that to go back real quick what you mentioned, I I do agree completely. Those that are in a different area of management or volunteer or somewhere in between caretaker or CEO, that position on the ladder offers them a different broader view or a little more of a narrow view. I would like to think that anybody listening now who's working their way up that ladder remembers that even if you do have that higher view and the broader horizon with more things to think about than someone who doesn't see the bigger picture like you do, that you remember what it was like to be down lower on the ladder, to have that narrow view. So you are motivated to communicate what the bigger view looks like and and understand their perspective, not just demand that they understand yours. That's where I think a lot of facilities fall short is that as people work up and they they they get that broader view, they can see it, it makes sense, but they don't communicate it back down so it can make sense for others because it's part of the community. It's part of the process for helping everyone understand. And they might still argue back and say it's a bad decision or the wrong choice, but it's an opportunity for that communication you're talking about to happen and to allow for the grief process, even for an animal move, to hopefully land a little better or at least allow that person to process their grief in in a new way that might be a little bit helpful.

SPEAKER_01 27:38

Yeah. And that's part of what makes a strong team is when you understand and have a shared why. You might not agree with the why, but and and that's that's part of animal training, right? Like I might I might train an animal a different way than someone else does. But if I know the why, that helps me adapt to what the animal's doing and allows me to be like, all right, well my end goal is this because we got to get them into this med pool by you know the end of the day. So I will adjust my approach, but everybody knows why we're doing the thing and that is what creates cohesion.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Yeah.

unknown 28:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Oh that's great. And so in the process of answering the first part of that question, you did start to go into that second part as with that coach hat on, with that knowledge you have, the training you've had, what are some of the things that if I were to get on your website and say, okay, here's here's my contact information I want to work with you or I'm thinking about working with you, what are some of the things that you would offer up what are some of the tools and pro processes you mentioned there's the group thing that you have for those that have um lost family members to suicide what let's say I am a zoo person or an aquarium person and I'm just struggling with the loss of an animal or whatever it might be or maybe it's a compounded thing because as we get older we lose all sorts of things. Grief happens for a wide variety of ways. What are some of the tools and avenues and things you offer up as a coach so if there's someone listening to this is like I think this might be for me tell us tell us a little more about what to expect if they were to reach out to you.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Yeah so my I have a signature course that I call the Death Card Collective and that is an eight-week course that I run twice a year. It includes part workshops and then part like group coaching together. But the reason I named it the Death Card Collective is because in in a tarot deck there's the death card. And most people with they pull that card they freak out they mean someone's going to die. But actually the whole point of the death card is to remind us that death is a part of the cycle of life and that we are not separate from that. And it is about kind of what we talked about earlier this idea of the release and the letting go in order to nourish, to compost and to grow the next new thing. And so that's a very easy kind of access point to work with me and connect with other people because again that's one of the really important elements of grief and loss and change is having a community of like-minded people who understand. So you can always go to my website literallyworking through it.com and sign up for the wait list for when doors open for the next cohort. The other thing that I work with people on and this is what lights my animal trainer brain up is I work with people on cultivating hope. Because the reason I and I base this off of the research of C.R. Snyder who found that hope is not an emotion. Hope is a cognitive process and a cognitive process can be strengthened. So I say it all the time hope is a learned behavior. And so how do you learn a behavior? You break it down into small approximations. So there are three elements of hope and there are three pillars that are all equally important. The first one is setting realistic goals because you have to have something to work towards but it also can't be something that's completely overwhelming. So I I work with people a lot on the framing of SMART goals. So you know if you've heard if you've done any sort of coaching in the industry you know what a SMART goal is specific, measurable attainable relevant and time bound. And all of those elements act as a check and balance. I like to think of goals as those small goals in particular as stepping stones that get you across a river. You're not going to leap the river all at once, you know, and you also don't want the stones to be so far apart that you're like I don't know if I can make that one. So setting realistic goals breaking bigger goals down into smaller ones is an essential part of the cognitive process of hope. The next one is staying flexible because life happens. If there's anything that grief and loss teaches us it is that anything can happen at any time. And so being able to stay flexible is a big part in being able to adapt in order to reach those goals that you've set. And then the third pillar of hope which is the kicker that we we do a lot of work on is believing in yourself. Believing that you can achieve those goals and so what are the things that contribute to believing in yourself to contributing to self-esteem so sometimes we work on defining personal values because our values act as our North star. And so how do we make decisions from a place of authenticity if we don't know what we stand for, if we don't know what's important to us. Another element of self-esteem is setting boundaries and you use your boundary your your values to inform what boundaries you need to set. You have to know what's important to you in order to know where you need to stand up for yourself or for others. And then another important part of self-esteem is self-talk. How do you communicate with yourself not only just verbally because actually verbal communication is really only 7% of all communication. So how do you show yourself care? Because how you treat yourself, how you talk to yourself predicates how you care for yourself. And so everybody's going to need different um emphasis on different elements but those three pillars of hope are something that I love working with people on because it is so tangible right and grief and loss and change feel untangible intangible.

SPEAKER_02 34:05

Yeah and I think that's part of the challenge of reckoning with it is it does feel so intangible. So I could absolutely see how the structure okay now I have something I can grab onto and start focusing on.

SPEAKER_01 34:16

That's keep going though I was like oh yeah definitely no yes yes so those are and those are the three pillars and and a lot of times like that is enough for people to find their footing after the tornado has come and blown through their life. And that is how you build resilience and and start having faith in yourself because that's about knowing that you can handle things because you've handled them before. And so it's just you know I always say that not that my brother's death was easier than my father's death but that grief was more familiar and I what I had done enough work to know more of who I was and how I wanted to show up and that gave me the confidence to give myself what I needed in that in that grief period. So um yeah I love talking about how hope is a learned behavior because you know I I miss training. So you know who knows? But that's maybe one of these days I'll bust out a clicker in a in a coaching session.

SPEAKER_02 35:26

But but that's I think that's a big part of what so I spent several years mentoring and coaching in the goal setting realm of career and life changes whether it's college to career, career to retirement. And I found the same thing where it is we everything we learn is animal trainers and behavior and goals and shaping behavior and understanding habitual behavior and how you can shift it through these little steps and the small stepping stones, small little goals to get to the big one approximations it's all the same for people or for working with animals.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

We are animals Oh my gosh. Yeah we don't we don't want to think that we're animals but we are animals we are not we are not separate from any of this.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

Well and I will say this to is again reflecting back on my experiences with grief sometimes too when you're in it you forget to call on your knowledge of behavior of habit setting of goal setting because you mentioned earlier it's like this tornado this whirlwind of an experience and you get disoriented and your life doesn't feel like your own all of a sudden and you know one thing I remember reading about being in that survival mode survival mode mind and knowing what I know about fight or flight and animal care is that because the adrenaline because the mentality of I could die if I don't do this, your mind for survival purposes, your mind purposely focuses only on the immediate threat. So the example I was always given was you're being chased by a cave bear as you know this person from hundreds of thousands of years ago, you're going to run across the thicket and thorns and your feet are going to get bloody but you're not going to feel it or care because you're you're surviving getting away from the bear. And then afterwards when you come down out of that single focus fear, you'll be like, oh my feet are a mess and now I got to take care of that and now I got to deal with that. But because you can only focus on the one thing I know going through grief was similar in the sense of you're swirling in that level of emotion was hard for me to step out of just focusing on that emotion and and those challenges and go, wait a minute, I have the knowledge and skills about habits and behaviors and goals and stepping stones. And it was hard at first, but I was working with somebody which allowed for me to be reminded of that and to help me go, oh yeah, thanks thanks for holding up that sign saying no you you want to do this first. And and I the reason I bring that up in my experience is because I want others to hear too the value in in in what you offer as a coach as a group coaching program I really think there is value in even if you know I know behavior I know myself there are times where you get you get wrapped up you get pulled into this tornado of emotions and all of your knowledge and skill does not matter because your your mind becomes singularly focused and having someone on the outside of that storm coach you through the process can reignite your knowledge and you're like oh yeah oh yeah I can do this and that that pillars of hope and that concept of giving something tangible I think there's such value in helping someone through the process of grief and understanding themselves in grief because it's that that little sign off in the distance going, nope, just reach a little bit further to your right and you'll be fine you know and and I just think it's wonderful that you're doing this this for others. And the the part that I really appreciate about what this brings for my audience is that I do know there's a lot of us in the animal care world and even the conservation side yes we're trained on the conservation side and even in the zoo world to it's it's science. You're not getting emotionally involved. You know classic Jane Goodall oh we we give the chimpanzees numbers and she's like no they get names because they're they're they're entities they're personalities they get names but even though that was what the 60s and 70s with Jane Goodall when she broke that mold about naming animals instead of giving them numbers it's still a thing in the in the world today where it's like you have to have some sort of emotional distance and you shouldn't be like that.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

You shouldn't feel that glorifies yeah yeah and so I just think it's a great value of what you're doing and allowing us to have these conversations um you know I I can't thank you enough for taking the time to be on here but is there anything else we haven't touched on yet that you think would be a value for my audience well one thing just to to talk about because you brought up the the metaphor of running from the bear which I use that all the time, especially when I work with people through burnout because that's something that is really important for us to recognize is that we are constantly getting activated in terms of the stress response cycles. And so we have to be completing those cycles running from the bear told your body I have run from the bear and I am now safe. But we don't have that in today's day and age. Like our stress response gets activated because of a project deadline because of traffic because of in-laws and like maybe you find a different way to work and you avoid the traffic but that does that hasn't told your body anything. And so being able to complete stress response cycles is also an important part of that grieving process is being able to tell your body in some sort of way like we have discharged, we are back like let's bring it back into a parasympathetic state. So I'm really glad that you said that. And the other thing that I just want to caveat with with when we talk about goals I first want to acknowledge that like sometimes we don't have the energy to set goals and that's okay. That's part of the allowing but and also a goal can be I'm gonna take a shower today. Yeah absolutely I'm gonna I'm gonna take the dog for a walk today. That is how things get accomplished is in that mindset of small goals only you know because the small is all it is the it is the performing of small actions that creates the whole and so that's something that I want people to keep in mind is even when you're setting a goal it doesn't matter what that goal is as as long as it feels like you can accomplish it and that you can do it again because that's all you do with grief is just what what is the next right thing that I have to do? And eventually you'll turn behind and you'll see like wow I I've actually I've I've traveled a long way. It doesn't I didn't feel like it in the moment but I I actually have.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Yeah I I will add to that because it's it's such a great point that sometimes just thinking about working with somebody on goals is like well I just I don't have the capacity to even do these big goals. I know I want to do them but there's no because now I'm going to be held accountable for it and someone's going to be yelling at me and I I you so good about saying that thank you for saying that that often when that first conversation happens with the coach it's like look I I want to get and you use this example earlier I want to get to that side of the river. And so the first question from the coach isn't like well then get swimming go go go it's let's figure out how to get the first stepping stone in place. And and maybe maybe that is our goal and first part of that goal is look around and see what kind of things could be stepping stones and that's all you got to do today. You know and that takes so much pressure off the bigger goal of I got to figure out how to get across the river today. And the analogy I would use often because one of the one of the biggest things that helped me through a lot of processing of grief and anxiety was getting outside for a walk. There's something about just being outside changing your environment briefly and again as an animal person I know changing environments can change animal behavior completely. But for myself I was like you know one of the biggest ones was if the goal is to go out for a walk, uh you want to do 15-minute walk every other day start with that. Okay. But the idea of getting up and going out and going for a walk, getting off the couch, getting to innovation say, okay, well your very first goal is to just stand up and grab your keys and put your shoes on. And if that's as far as you want to go take your shoes off, put your keys down and go sit back on the couch. But once we got that going, that concept of like just grab the keys and put your shoes on. You don't have to say open the door. Well if your shoes are already on what if you did open the door you know and and now your next thing is approximate to the the the the front walk you know and and eventually it would it's a lot less overwhelming when you can break it down into those small little easily obtainable steps because then the next step is also small and easy and attainable. So thank you for bringing that up I think there's great value in That and and especially for somebody hearing that just because you're gonna be working with a coach doesn't mean you have to jump in and get yelled at to do all these things all at once. I'm not a yeller, sorry. But I think a lot of people have that concept of coaching, is like, you know, you're gonna ride me and harass me. Like it's like, no, we're gonna find out what works for you and we're gonna approximate those things. So that's great. That's great. Well, again, I cannot thank you enough. And you are kind enough, for anyone listening, you were kind enough to also send me the link to that study you mentioned in our conversation. So I will have your information in the show notes below, whether people are watching this on YouTube or listening on a podcast player, I'll also have the links you provided to that study about uh people in zoos and burnout. I think that's very important. Uh and you know, I think anybody listening who wants to learn more, just because you reach out uh to Bridget doesn't mean you have to work with her or hire as a coach, but I think there's a wealth of information, knowledge, and resources that you could find by further exploring this. So I encourage anybody who might be wanting to learn more, go ahead and reach out to her. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

Yeah, I'll talk with anyone about anything.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

There you go. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Just shoot me in DN. I just want to get to know you. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_02 45:11

Excellent. Excellent. Well, again, Bridget, thank you so much for taking the time to be on Animals and Nature and You and for sharing your wealth of knowledge with everyone.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Thank you so much, Rick. This has been a treat.

SPEAKER_02 45:21

And of course, thank you, dear listeners. I appreciate you being here and joining me on this curious Odyssey we call Animals and Nature and You. I really hope you got something out of this. This conversation around grief and everything else really put it was a focus on the you part of Animals, Nature, and You. I know for me, and before I started this podcast, getting out in nature, whether it was a walk in the green space, going out in the park, or just watching the birds outside, any version of reconnecting with animals and nature, helped me so much through the many challenges that occurred over the last five years of my life before this podcast was even thought of as being a thing. And that is part of the reason why it is named what it's named. Animals, nature, and you. There's a connection there, there's a through line there. You work with animals, you work in nature, you work around the space of living things, or you even have a pet at home. We're gonna come across the emotions of grief at some point or another. And whether animals and nature help us through that process, or the process is brought on the fact that we had animals in our life that passed away, or any version of that. This conversation is so valuable. And whether you reach out to Bridget for her coaching or her knowledge around this, or you explore it on your own, or you have a therapist, or you work through grief counseling, whatever it might be, there's value in understanding yourself and the elements that grief offer and have, the lessons you learn about yourself while going through that process and allowing yourself to go through that process. So thank you very much for being a part of this conversation. Uh, we have so many different dynamic conversations, whether it was from several episodes ago where we talked about pet therapy, or even before that, talking about how humans are so powerful when they work together from different cultures for conservation, or whether we're talking about the understanding of how love works into the equation of conservation. Like we did a couple episodes ago with Leif. There's just so much to it. And then even the mothering wild, like with Elizabeth Johnson, talking about that balancing of work and life, and really that it's more than just work and life, but it's it's work as a component of life, which is made up of many other things as well. It all comes together. We are all connected. We're connected to animals, we're connected to nature, we're connected to each other. And I I just love the fact we can have these conversations. So if you haven't already, make sure you hit subscribe or follow. Make sure you're a part of this community. We have new episodes coming out uh every Thursday, interviews like this with awesome guests doing awesome work that is important and challenging and cool and interesting. And then also every Tuesday we have our 10-minute Tuesdays, which is just a shorter version of me taking a solo episode, talking about either something we have discussed with a guest from the past or something that's topical in the moment. If you want to connect, you can find Animals Nature and You on Instagram, or you can look down in the show notes below, find my website, zoologyrec.com. You can find all the information on our guests and the stuff we talked about down there as well, and also my social media too. So, with that, we're gonna wrap this up, and I will say what I always say because I mean it. Have a good one, everybody.