E19 Why So Many Couples Struggle With Sex In Purity Culture

We were taught that sex was sacred, powerful, and something to protect, but what happens when that message suddenly flips after marriage and you’re expected to just know what to do? In this episode, we share our real experience with how early messaging shaped our confidence, desire, and connection in ways we didn’t even realize at the time. This is not about attacking beliefs, it’s about understanding how conditioning follows people into marriage and how couples can rebuild intimacy, communication, and desire in a healthier way together. #UndressedConversations #MarriageTruth #IntimacyMatters #RealRelationships #ConnectionOverPerfection 

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We’re Mark and Tonya, high school sweethearts married for 30 years. After decades of trying to fit into roles that weren't ours, we finally dropped the masks and started telling the truth about marriage, intimacy, shame, healing, and what it actually takes to stay connected for life. Our goal is simple, to help couples build relationships that feel alive again.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

We were taught that sex was sacred, powerful, dangerous, and something you should protect at all costs.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Which sounds noble until you get married.

SPEAKER_04 0:09

Because then suddenly the message flips.

SPEAKER_03 0:11

For twenty years, it's don't think about it, don't touch it, don't tempt it, don't go there. It's not good for you.

SPEAKER_04 0:18

Then on your wedding night, everybody basically says, okay, go on and have an amazing sex life.

SPEAKER_03 0:23

Flip the switch, be confident, be passionate, and be uninhibited, even though you have never been given the tools to do any of that.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

After two decades of being trained, the desire is dangerous.

SPEAKER_03 0:35

This is basically neurological whiplash.

SPEAKER_04 0:38

We're not here to attack faith. We're talking about messaging because messaging wires your nervous system.

SPEAKER_03 0:43

And a lot of people discover the messaging they grew up with doesn't stop at the altar.

SPEAKER_04 0:48

It follows them straight into their marriage and their bedroom.

SPEAKER_03 0:52

Today we're talking about how purity culture can quietly shape your sex life long after the wedding.

SPEAKER_04 0:57

And this isn't because people are broken.

SPEAKER_03 0:59

But because they were conditioned.

SPEAKER_04 1:01

And it's a deep one.

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Chapter one, what purity culture taught us.

SPEAKER_04 1:07

Okay, so I'm a little bit different because I wasn't raised in a religion per se for my teenage years. So I don't really have a lot of experience on this. But I I did have friends who were into the purity culture. I had friends that did the absence pledge, and I had friends that, you know, were gonna save themselves until marriage. So I I was around it. I just wasn't immersed in it like you were.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

It yeah, it existed for you, but kind of on the periphery. Yeah. For me, it was front and center. Everything that I learned from the very young age was around sex and anything to do with any kind of any kind of body parts was basically evil. But the crazy part is that even though we were taught all that, we weren't taught the things to protect us. So I ended up being a young child that was sexually abused.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:00

Yeah. And so that further shaped me, but in a religion that had no tools to deal with any of that.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

Mm-hmm. You know, and I I do know that girls were taught that um, like from our young age, girls were taught that our bodies are meant to be private and secret, because you know, we're taught to have long shorts and we're taught to have long skirts, and you're not supposed to, you know, wear really revealing closing clothing. I mean, I was taught that from a young age, just from a religion.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

It was even so much as to cover up your shoulders and wear undergarments. They controlled what you wore underneath your clothing to the point of controlling a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:43

And for boys, it was a lot that they're told we're visual creatures and we can't control it.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

And so And us girls are walking porn.

SPEAKER_03 2:53

Yeah, you're walking porn, and we're we just can't control it. So it's really all on you. You know, if we do what we do, it's just because while we're boys and boys will be boys, we we just can't control it. And it's because you need to and I think the person that best said this was Mitch Fattel. And I don't remember what comedy skit it was, but he said that it wouldn't matter what you dressed women in, eventually they're gonna find men will find a way to classify women, and you could dress them in a refrigerator box, and men would find a way, like, oh, did you see that GE over there? Like, you know, she really had the shape, like that slender, you know. I'm like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. We're gonna find a way, like it's the eyes, it's something. If we can see anything, we're gonna find a way to judge beauty based on that.

SPEAKER_04 3:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:41

Whether that be right or wrong.

SPEAKER_04 3:43

Yeah. Well, and I mean, I I was exposed to it when I was in my late 30s when I joined the church, and we were definitely taught that our modesty is our worthiness.

unknown 3:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:57

Like that's like it's like currency. It's like your currency, man. It's it's how modest you are, is how how good you are, and how good you're gonna be and get to that highest level of heaven or whatever. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 4:08

You know, and growing up in religion for me, it meant that sexual thoughts were framed as dangerous or simple. They're never ever good. Yeah. And so you, you know, you go from zero to eighteen, which is about the time we got married, 19, whatever, and everything around it is terrible, and then all of a sudden it's okay in your experience to be amazing at it. Now, I'm sitting here wondering for the last few days myself is how in the world do these people that only have sex a couple times a year or even a couple times a quarter or whatever, they're having sex so infrequently. How in the world can they imagine that they're great at doing this? Yeah, you don't get to be a master by never practicing the craft.

SPEAKER_04 4:57

What is it, 18 minutes a day makes you a yeah, 18 minutes a day?

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Like if 18 minutes a day, if you did 18 minutes a day, that's a hundred hours a year, and if you spent that, you would be better than 98% of your cohorts, which tells you how little people are actually having sex, if that holds true throughout sex. Yeah, and these people think they're amazing at it. The same people that are saying they never have sex are the same ones that probably sit at home and think, yeah, it's her, not me, or it's him, not me. No, dude, you have no idea what you're doing, you're not getting enough practice.

SPEAKER_04 5:32

No, no, and especially when it's once every few months. There's no way you have enough practice, especially if you would live in a or if you were grew up in a purity culture where you couldn't even practice until you were married, and if you didn't get married until your 30s, well, you're really behind the eight ball on that one.

SPEAKER_03 5:48

Yeah, so think about when you were growing up, what messages did you hear around sex? What was the message you received?

SPEAKER_04 5:54

Wait until married. Wait until you're married. Like if you're gonna have sex, wait until you're married. And I heard that just as a societal standard, it wasn't even a religious standard.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Or did that come from your parents? And did they continue that, or was that just societal?

SPEAKER_04 6:08

That was societal. My parents didn't tell me anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

It was it came from my parents and it came from everything I heard all day in the temple every day. Get married in the temple, wait until the temple, yeah, and then you know, go on and have your honeymoon. But you know, the night before your honeymoon, nobody talks to you and says, Hey, here's here's a little Okay, this is what's gonna happen. Here's a little tutorial and a little picture book, and like the thing that makes me cringe so much is that my parents were so uncomfortable with sex that the sex talk when we got to coming of age was one of the most awkward things that you can ever imagine going through as a child. Because I left literally wondering if I could get somebody pregnant just by sharing a toilet seat. That's one of the thoughts that went through my mind because that's how poorly it was explained to me.

SPEAKER_04 6:57

Mine was a 1950s book that had visual illustrations on how to do it. And boy, I was confused. I'm like, huh, how's that gonna work?

SPEAKER_03 7:09

Yeah, and so think about now how did those messages make us feel about our bodies? You know, we were taught that everything around our body, especially if it was a sexual in nature, was shameful. I never was afraid to work go topless.

SPEAKER_04 7:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:22

But you certainly were.

SPEAKER_04 7:23

Well, I mean, and even though I wasn't raised in a purity culture, society did teach me the same things where I was ashamed of my body. I was ashamed to show my legs, and I was ashamed to show my arms or my midriff or anything like that. It it's just that's just how we were taught, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

And then especially, especially if it was imperfect, you were let's not even go there. If if it was imperfect, uh you were not.

SPEAKER_04 7:47

I really didn't want to show that.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

It was kind of sc you know, it was scandalous if you were gonna show it and it was perfect, but if you were not perfect and you wanted to show it, oh my gosh. That's when you really started feeling that self-confidence.

SPEAKER_04 7:59

Oh, yeah, it was bad slip. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_03 8:02

Totally. So were there any parts of that that were helpful to us growing up? Or were there parts that were harmful? Or how did you feel about that?

SPEAKER_04 8:11

Because I know how to I really didn't feel there there was anything that was helpful. Like, even when we took sex ed or whatever we were supposed to take in high school or middle school, like I think it gave you more questions than answers because nobody was being completely honest with you about sex and about how beautiful it can be and the benefits of it, and and how you could have a healthy relationship with your spouse. And I mean, they didn't teach you that, they told you don't do it until marriage.

SPEAKER_03 8:39

But then somehow be amazing.

SPEAKER_04 8:40

Yeah, and if you're gonna do it, use protection. Okay. I mean, but they didn't tell us anything else. Like, imagine my surprise when I was so confused.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

Yeah, and somehow you like I said, again, you're supposed to be great at it, and then they wonder why all these marriages fail, and people people go outside their marriage to find excitement because they're not there's not excitement in their marriage, because they get stuck in their marriage where it was. Yeah, you know, your marriage basically stops and probably regresses a little bit when you have kids. We've talked about this. And I think about how we were very adventurous.

SPEAKER_04 9:15

Yeah, we'll go into that more in detail, I'm sure. But yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

I mean And then you have kids and you feel this overwhelming responsibility and not to mention just being worn out.

SPEAKER_04 9:26

Yeah, that's true. So but I mean, the whole the purity culture it kind of ties into societal culture, but purity culture, those kids raised in a purity culture definitely have a worse time grasping the concept than other kids because it's just so ashamed and it just makes you feel so much worse.

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Yeah, everything that I learned around any kind of sexual function was just just be ashamed of it, hide it well and it's not good for anybody.

SPEAKER_04 9:59

As a convert too, into the church, it's amazing how terrible they made me feel about sex after I was married and I was supposed to be having sex. So I was probably more ashamed after I joined the church than I was before, which totally stunted my sexual awakening.

SPEAKER_03 10:15

Well, it was a double whammy because in 2005 we start having kids, and then in 2000, late 2007 we become active again in a high-demand religion, Mormonism.

SPEAKER_00 10:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:26

And it just totally crushes everything. And so we are taught again and we're trying to be good people, and not you so much as me, you're trying to please me, and I'm trying to please. I don't know. Honestly, I don't know who the fuck I was trying to please.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:42

I I don't know. You know, everybody says, Oh, well, Mormonism was good for you because you quit drinking. No, I quit drinking six months before that. Yeah, I didn't need that. Maybe it was a reinforcement of an ideal, but yeah, you know, it was it was that, and then I went back to just having the most mundane sex, and you felt unsexy, and we weren't spending any time connecting with each other at all, and we just died.

SPEAKER_04 11:08

And that leads us to chapter two, the switch problem.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

People are expected to go from suppression to sexual confidence overnight without any training or any freaking clue whatsoever in what they're doing because nobody around them has ever talked to them other than their peers, who also coincidentally have no idea what's going on.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

Yeah. Well, and that's the other bad thing that especially kids nowadays is with the abundance of porn available on social media, internet, whatnot, they have such a false realization of what a happy, healthy sex life is supposed to be like.

SPEAKER_03 11:48

Yeah, and don't hear us say that porn is bad. It's not bad. It's it's a really bad introduction.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

I would say if you don't have any idea what you're doing or how you're supposed to be doing it, it's probably not the best teacher.

SPEAKER_03 12:00

And to think you're gonna step up to those levels and that they're realistic and and a good portrayal of what goes on behind a you know in a bedroom. Now they can be a great place to find ideas, as we have discovered. But you know, I remember I didn't have the expectation on a wedding night, but the wedding night for a lot of people, especially if you're in a high-demand religion, is the first time if you've taken this abstinence pledge that you're ever gonna have any experience with any of this stuff because you haven't visualized it. No, and somehow you're just thrown together with some boy that you know you love, and I'm sure you've had feelings of, and you're just expected to perform, and everything's supposed to be fine for for both people, him and her.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 12:42

And that is just not the reality of it. No, no, the reality is that in 30 seconds everything's gonna be over and everybody's gonna be a little disappointed.

SPEAKER_04 12:51

Um, they have no idea what to expect, though.

SPEAKER_03 12:54

No, I mean, I mean, her, she's gonna be disappointed. He's gonna be like, wow, I've never felt anything like that since I climbed a pole on the playground.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

She's gonna be like, huh. I thought it would be a lot better. I mean, it's yeah, they have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

So you you stumble through your wedding night, which might be the very first time that you've ever had any experience with that. If you're if you're a true blue, good Christian abstinence practicing person.

SPEAKER_00 13:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:23

And then now all of a sudden you're opened up to this wild world, and we were a little bit like that. You know, when we went through our wedding night, we had we were not at all abstinent, but we were I had had one experience before you, and uh you were my first, or I was your first. Yeah, you were my first, and so well before our wedding night. We were learning, but we we were constantly.

SPEAKER_04 13:48

We were in the infancy of our sexual relationship.

SPEAKER_03 13:50

It was getting better and it was getting wilder, and I can remember the first time that we had outdoor sex that we actually decided you know what, this is cool for us. We it was freaking mad dog 2020 is what it was.

SPEAKER_04 14:02

Gravel pit.

SPEAKER_03 14:03

Mad Dog 2020 one night. Somebody got us a mad dog, and we went to the gravel pit and just bare gravel in your back, and no nobody cared. Nobody cared. It was so wild and so amazing. And that's the introduction, you know. So we had done that before marriage, and then after marriage, you know, we talked about it on the last episode, I think, the honeymoon of getting trapped in Casper and just getting kind of wily in the sauna, and we're like, Well, I don't think anybody's looking. And that opened up the door to that. Oh my gosh, what what is this this thing that I'm feeling when I feel like maybe I'll get caught.

SPEAKER_04 14:38

Yeah. You know, but nobody explains to you what kinks are or what fetishes are or desire is, nobody explains that to you. Fantasies are like nobody tells you that stuff, and so you have all these feelings until you pop up one day and you say something, and then they're like, Oh, that's wrong.

SPEAKER_03 14:53

You can't do that. Well, you didn't give me any training. Who are you to judge? Right. Unfortunately, I developed all this stuff using years and years of internet porn because you did a fucking terrible job.

SPEAKER_04 15:05

But the thing is, is those fantasies and kinks and fed, they're all normal, they all can be healthy. I mean, I'm obviously there are things that are not healthy, but overall, it's a beautiful thing. And especially if you have a partner to share that with, it's an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_03 15:24

And we had each other since 16, we had each other to share all this stuff and to explore, and that's what we really enjoyed. And so we and that was a time I was away from church, so I wasn't feeling any of the pressure from that. I was like, you know what, I've already broken, I've already created I've already committed the most carnal sin that you can commit in the Mormon church, and that is sex before marriage. Like, I may as well may as well have killed a million people.

SPEAKER_04 15:50

Well, because it's next to murder, right?

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Yeah, it's it's no, it's next to murder. I think it might even be above murder. It's a terrible sin. You can't do that stuff. And so I'm already thinking, well, I mean, you're told you're a chewed piece of gum, so I was this chewed piece of gum after the first time. By the time you met me, I was just this old wadded up.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

Well, you were a hot piece. You were a hot piece of gum that I like to chew on, so mammy.

SPEAKER_03 16:12

Apparently stuck to the bottom of your shoe.

SPEAKER_04 16:14

And you stay there.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

Desire continued to feel wrong, even though it was allowed.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

It was hard to step into that. Oh, we have a whole new way of looking at things. Now everything's finally perfect and and you can do this, and we still feel guilty.

SPEAKER_04 16:33

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 16:33

I remember feeling dirty when we walked into the bookstore.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Oh, yeah, the adult bookstore.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

The adult bookstore to go look at some novelties.

SPEAKER_04 16:40

Novelties, yeah. Well, and not only that, but it still felt really awkward initiating sex. And remember how we talked in the previous episode, how I couldn't even say the F-word. Like I couldn't even cuss, I couldn't even like talk dirty to him, even well into our 40s, you know. And imagine being a 19, 20-year-old, 25-year-old person getting married and like trying to initiate sex with your partner. Like, you have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 17:09

Well, and we get married, and you know, there's a difference between being given permission to do that stuff and the freedom. Like, we were given permission, but then it seemed like even after we were given permission, there was always some oh, you can't go there.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

No.

SPEAKER_03 17:25

No, you can't go there. Oh, you like feet? No, feet are not allowed because that's that's not that's what what do you mean?

SPEAKER_04 17:32

Oh, you like oral? Can't do that.

SPEAKER_03 17:33

No, yeah, oral oral is not allowed.

SPEAKER_04 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:37

I mean, then why is it a thing? Why is it a thing? And the best way to get sex started since um, I don't know, Adam and Eve.

SPEAKER_04 17:45

Yeah. No, you're supposed to replenish the Earth man. That's all you're supposed to do.

SPEAKER_03 17:50

Yeah, and you're supposed to pump that's it. I don't understand this line between you're supposed to have some, you're supposed to have none, and then when you start having it, you're supposed to have some, but only the right kind of some, and only the right kind of times, and only the right kind of ways, and only the right kind of holes, and then the only like it's everything. Like, there are so many rules, but unfortunately, in all my research, I can't find anywhere where the fucking rules are written down, have you? No, no, because I haven't found them.

SPEAKER_04 18:22

Yeah. So, and so you're kind of talking about like there's a huge difference between that whole permission and the freedom. Like, there's no freedom.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

Absolutely, there's no freedom. You've got permission, but there's no freedom because how do you have freedom without knowing what the fucking rules are?

SPEAKER_04 18:35

You have no idea.

SPEAKER_03 18:36

No clue. It's impossible.

SPEAKER_04 18:38

No clue, no clue.

SPEAKER_03 18:39

You can't flip a switch on decades of conditioning overnight.

SPEAKER_04 18:43

No, absolutely not.

SPEAKER_03 18:44

That's the way we're trained. We're trained from birth until and we're still seeing it today. And you and I have had these discussions. At what point do you become responsible for your own sexual freedom?

unknown 18:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

Because I feel like at 16 I was responsible for whatever happened to me. I really do. I feel like I was versed enough, I was educated in the world enough, I was like, there's no way that you would catch me if some teacher got a hold of me that I was hot for.

SPEAKER_04 19:12

Well, and the thing is when I was a victim. When I was 16, 17, I knew what sex was. I knew that I wanted to have it, and at that time, nothing probably could have stopped me from doing it.

SPEAKER_03 19:24

We weren't innocent. And that's the thing we realized. I mean, my.

SPEAKER_04 19:27

And even though nobody taught me about it, I still knew. Like it's still almost like you're ingrained to do it.

SPEAKER_03 19:33

We talked about how your parents did stuff, but my parents, they were involved in everything. They were involved in in mentioning even whether or not they thought we were sexually active when we were dating. My mom was all over. I think I don't know why she was so interested in whether or not we're having sex.

SPEAKER_04 19:51

I had my head in your lap, and that totally meant we were having sex.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

Well, we weren't. We weren't, but we were doing other things. We were close at the time. We were close, we were working our way up to it, but we were being responsible young adults and respecting what we were doing because I moved too fast the first time and I didn't want to make the mistake again. So there's that.

SPEAKER_04 20:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

If you're at all interested in the facts.

SPEAKER_04 20:15

Well, and I think at the age of 16, 17, I still knew the right way to do it, too, because we waited until I could get on birth control before we really got hot and heavy into it. I mean, we knew. We knew how to not get pregnant.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

We knew birth control condoms, and we have never ever had any issues figuring any of this stuff out. There's never been an unplanned pregnancy. Well, there was one. There was one. But you know, that was uh luckily it was a miscarriage. Worked out and the way it works. Because I don't know in that time of our life in North Platte, Nebraska, if I was quite ready to handle it. I don't think I was either that's a whole story. Yeah. That leads us now into chapter three, and that's how modesty culture followed us into the bedroom. And in our religion, they control even what goes on behind doors.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:05

I think. Oh, I think they're heavily invested in what goes on behind the doors of a married couple.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:10

It comes down to I knew my parents wore garments their whole life. I didn't realize the chastity belt that those things were.

SPEAKER_04 21:19

No.

SPEAKER_03 21:19

I had no idea.

SPEAKER_04 21:20

Well, and not only that, but you're trained to cover and to hide your body. Not only from your spouse, but from yourself, it seems. Like you're don't show that. Don't show anything.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Anything. Don't show anything ever.

SPEAKER_04 21:33

Like I don't know how I can explain how terrible it was to cover myself from you and not be able to show my body to you, and how terrible that made me feel about myself worth. Like it was so bad.

unknown 21:47

So bad.

SPEAKER_03 21:48

Yeah, and that led us into the whole uncomfortability of being able to be seen naked or in any kind of undress, which is why people have sex with the lights off. That's why they get dressed. You know, separate rooms. That's why they close the bathroom door. They're like, don't look at me. This is too embarrassing. You know, we don't hide anything, and we have total and absolute freedom as a result.

SPEAKER_04 22:11

Well, and they almost taught purity culture almost teaches you that sex is not supposed to be fun. Like you're supposed to procreate. That's what you're supposed to do, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:19

It's functional only.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

You're not supposed to have fun. You're not to do anything kinky, you're not to do anything out of the norm. It's, you know, do it quick, get out of the way. I mean, and what's the fun of that? Like, what what does that do for desire in a marriage?

SPEAKER_03 22:33

Yeah. Kills it. It just plummets it because you feel like you have to get permission for everything. You know, we've got to hurry up and turn the lights off and quickly jump under the covers before we do anything. And then whatever we do, you know, in our relationship with the garments and everything that they place, because you're not supposed to take those off ever unless it's forced.

SPEAKER_04 22:53

Let's talk let's talk about those sacred garments. Can we can we talk about those for a minute?

SPEAKER_03 22:58

Yes, I'm not sure. For those of you that don't understand, the people that are involved in the Mormon or Latter-day Saint or LDS religion have to go through the temple and they receive something that's called an endowment. When they get their endowment, they make certain sacred covenants basically to you know off themselves if they do anything terrible like have sex. It's bad, it's a part of it. Well, yeah, it used to be. Don't correct me on I mean, you're right. So they make vows, and so one of the things is they put these on, and it's like a chastity belt. It's literally like a chastity pledge that says you're gonna you're gonna keep yourself pure, and they're super white, and so like I mean, just imagine the sweat stains, and then well, and they go to your knees.

SPEAKER_04 23:41

Or past or past your knees, and they the women's used to come down your arm, so you couldn't have your upper. And they had a higher neck, so you couldn't show your chest. I could not wear this right now if I was wearing garments.

SPEAKER_03 23:54

Yeah, they'd be showing all over, they'd be like clear up here. They're basically choking you off.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:58

Same thing for the guys, they show out of your t-shirts, they show out of everything, so it's impossible to hide them. And they just prevent intimacy. And there's the people in the church that honestly believe that you're supposed to wear your bra on top of these. Yeah, and I'm like, and I'm like, how in the how that is one of the that has to be one of the most uncomfortable things ever.

SPEAKER_04 24:19

They're supposed to touch your skin.

SPEAKER_03 24:20

But what it was is, you know, you strip down, and if the lights are on, we kind of almost turned the lights off just so we didn't have to see each other.

SPEAKER_04 24:27

No, you were I I rarely found you unattractive in our marriage, but when you wore those, it was like.

SPEAKER_03 24:34

Oh, yeah, it was a total frickin' like you want to talk about whiskey dick, those things will give a guy whiskey dick. Nothing'll nothing'll turn you off more. Like it's as good about this thinking of your mom or something. It's those things are terrible.

SPEAKER_04 24:48

Yeah. Garments. But it's not only the fabric that is on your body, it's what it does to your brain and what it does to your relationship because it just puts you in that mindset where that fear is instilled. If I don't wear these, then I'm not gonna get all the blessings, and and you know, I'm not gonna my marriage is not gonna be good, and it's not gonna do this. And but the fact is it's slowly killing your marriage, it's killing your intimacy, it's killing your desire, which is the root of your marriage.

SPEAKER_03 25:15

Yeah, and the thing is, is it's not about the fabric, it's really about the mindset attached to the fabric. Like it is just it's you feel that control wrapped around you 24-7 all day long.

SPEAKER_04 25:28

So, what you're saying is it's kind of hard to feel playful when you're being policed.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Absolutely. Like every time I sat down at a park bench and I was wearing shorts and those things are sticking out, I'm like, oh, there I go again. Shit fuck. This is gonna get censored. But that's what I'm thinking because I was not Mormon for a long time too, so I was still thinking in cuss words, I just didn't say them.

SPEAKER_04 25:47

Mm-hmm. Well, and we won't even get into the fact that people would garment check you and stuff like that too, which leads to a lot of insecurities. It was social pressure within some. It was so bad. It was it was so bad, so terrible.

SPEAKER_03 25:59

Yeah, because they would they would try and catch people, like, oh yeah, oh I just because there's so much self-policing in it.

SPEAKER_04 26:07

Yeah. Well, I was guilty of people coming to me and be like, Well, you know you're supposed to wear those all the time, or you know you're supposed to do this, and I'm like, okay. That's nice.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

That's nice. You don't have to fuck my husband, I do.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

Right? So, anyhow, it it's just it's yeah. I don't even know what to say. I just have to shake my head.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

I think that's a good place for chapter four, and this is how it shows up in marriage.

SPEAKER_04 26:33

Yeah. Yeah, let's talk about how it shows up in marriage because we definitely experienced this. Like, one of the okay, not only at that time did we have young children, but I definitely feel like the garments and the religious culture and the purity culture, it totally killed our sex life. It's like we didn't want to initiate. We're like, Yeah. Like we're talking about the the whiskey dick and we're like the unattractiveness. It's like, yeah, it's real.

SPEAKER_03 26:58

Like there's nothing, there's nothing left in the tank. These are all common patterns that we're all dealing with. And it's the the guilt around pleasure because we're going to church and we're trying to do the right things. At least I am. You freaking sitter.

SPEAKER_04 27:11

But then like like talking about before, where we got rid of all of our fun stuff too. Like the toys and the playfulness goes away. Like that was gone. So we had nothing else to spark that intimacy. There was no, yeah, there was no catalyst.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

There was no sexual lingerie, there was no videos, there was no toys, there was nothing. How in the world were we gonna start a fire with no freaking firewood?

SPEAKER_04 27:37

And when your fire retardant is wrapped around you.

SPEAKER_03 27:42

Yeah, and then were we supposed to be having fun during sex? Because I didn't ever feel like I didn't ever feel like that was a message that I was taught in church was hey, yeah, it's it's okay to have fun and to to feel pleasure and enjoy pleasure with sex. Yeah. I never felt like I got that.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

No. Well, and then like we were talking before, that it totally stopped us from talking about any fantasies of wants, of wishes, of things we liked, because it was so utilitarian. It was just it was so blh.

SPEAKER_03 28:14

Yeah, so it felt like a duty instead of a connection. That's where we really were. Is we gotta do this because we're married and now we can, so we should, but do you want to? No, but we we can. I mean I'm so infrequent at it, I suck at it.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

Yeah, yeah. It's just I have a lot of things I could say about this right now.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

It's it's when did we start talking about we didn't talk about fantasy. We we had a fear of talking about fantasies and desires. We couldn't even do that, you know. We loved each other deeply, but we had no way to really connect with that love.

SPEAKER_04 28:54

Well, because even though because okay, so we're starting to grow together and we're starting to build our sexual relationship. And I think in that time, the fantasies and desires, you those those start, you know, you start to share them.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

Sorry, because you're a little freaking heathen, you little athlete and eat, and you're over there watching porn and shit.

SPEAKER_04 29:11

But what I'm what I'm saying is when we when we started with the religion in our mid-30s, it totally took a break on all of our development that we were doing.

SPEAKER_03 29:19

Well, mine, you sounded like you were still freaking full steam ahead, you little freaking heathen. Why is like we might have thrown out the basket, but that stuff lives on in my imagination.

SPEAKER_04 29:32

Oh, it lives on in my imagination. I may have kept one or two things hidden out of the toy box. I think I did actually. I did.

SPEAKER_03 29:42

Dude, you had coffee for 10 years. Yeah. I have no doubt to the lengths that you went through to hide stuff from me. I have no doubt. It freaking makes me laugh now. It's I love you. You know, uh, you know, and that's where we were. We loved each other deeply. We struggled to show each other and understand how we could incorporate that sexually into our relationship because everything felt wrong.

SPEAKER_04 30:08

Yeah. Since we're on this chapter, I do have a Reddit. This is talking about purity culture. And the question is, how often were you supposed to have sex with your husband, wife, or partner? And they're polling people in purity culture. So I thought this would be kind of interesting. It says, There have been a lot of interesting conversations in the sub recently about purity culture and how it gets men's and women's sex drive wrong. I was wondering if you all are willing to share how often were you supposed to have sex according to your family, the church, purity culture, etc. How does that compare to how much you're actually having?

SPEAKER_03 30:40

So they use the word supposta, like there is a magic number that works.

SPEAKER_04 30:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

Can we can we just can we just quickly agree that supposta is a very individualized couple of things?

SPEAKER_04 30:53

Very individualized.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

One couple may feel like supposta and they feel really good at once a week. We feel really good at like once in the morning, once in the evening, once in the middle, just once in the morning, once in the evening, once in the afternoon life. I mean, some days it some days, some days it'd be like that. Some days it'd be like that. You just got to some days it's once a day.

SPEAKER_04 31:18

Like it's just there's no right or wrong.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

And there's days we miss days.

SPEAKER_04 31:21

There is. There is.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

The right number is what makes you feel satisfied.

SPEAKER_04 31:26

But I'm interested to see what the There are a couple responses that might trigger some conversation here. So especially this one. Um, this is a woman, and she's like, whenever my husband wanted to, pretty much. If I said no too often, eventually he would resent me and find release elsewhere. Masturbation. And she said, so gross. I started Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

So he would find release elsewhere, and that was still a problem.

SPEAKER_04 31:54

That's kind of how it sounds.

SPEAKER_03 31:55

Why is masturbation gross? Let me finish. Who decided? Okay, sorry.

SPEAKER_04 32:00

I started off as a teen with a high sex drive, but purity culture destroyed that. By the time I was married at 22 and followed the stupid rules, I still had the drive, but physically doing anything made me feel disgusted and repulsed. I also had, I don't know how to say this, vaginism, and that's where they have pain with sex. But I didn't know it was a thing for years. So our sex life was very hard and complicated. Recently had a breakthrough after 10 years of marriage, and now we're finally starting to get back on track. So she says, honestly, reading the sub has helped me process a lot. It took getting angry at the right institutions and find a way to sit with anger that helped me become overcoming the trauma. So she's taught I'm supposed to have sex whenever my husband wants it. Which is a lot of what girls are taught. They're like, hmm. We've heard that many times. And it almost feels like women were not taught that they could enjoy sex, right?

SPEAKER_03 32:56

So is that the reason that they're because if they knew that it was enjoyable, wouldn't they want to? You would think so. Because that's where we got to. But if if I thought it was just a chore to be done, I would never want to. If it was just another batch of laundry, no. I think I'm good. But if it was something that I could learn to enjoy, I don't think anybody's ever taught anybody that it can and should be enjoyed in whichever flavor uh uh uh you uh choose. Yes, uh because only you know what you like. Just because one person thinks feet are disgusting doesn't mean another person doesn't worship them.

SPEAKER_00 33:35

Right.

SPEAKER_03 33:36

They're both don't yck somebody's yum. Yeah, both can be true at the same time. And maybe there's a guy in the middle that's like feet, I could take them or leave them, I don't really care. But there's every little bit in the spectrum, and that's what I keep saying with all this stuff. This whole thing, sexuality is a spectrum. And there's apparently some police out there telling us what is and what is not okay, and that's the thing I have a problem with.

SPEAKER_04 34:03

So here's another one. Um, she says, before marriage, I was never given an exact prescription, but the way it was talked about, I really believed it was going to be every night. The real surprise came after I was married, and I found out I actually had a sex drive. I never once got the message that it could possibly be enjoyable for me, and was a totally shocked to find it wasn't a chore, but something I loved and had a strong appetite for. Never even knew that could be a possibility.

SPEAKER_03 34:29

Dude, yeah. Were you told that sex was supposed to be fun?

SPEAKER_04 34:33

No.

SPEAKER_03 34:34

Did you get that message? No. I was taught that boys wanted to have sex all the time and they're just built that way, but nobody even told me that that was okay. I never got the message that that was okay. I was always basically told that that's something we need to keep on a leash.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

I think is a better way of putting that. We we need to learn how to rein ourselves back so that we're not the feral animals that we are. And you know, I mean, in all honesty, some of these freaking people out there are feral animals because they've been cut off so long.

SPEAKER_04 35:08

Yeah, they are.

SPEAKER_03 35:09

Freaking don't give a tiger meat for long enough, and bang, it's gonna happen. Watch them just go feral.

SPEAKER_04 35:14

Yeah. Well, this one is interesting. So she's growing up fundal fundamentalist Mormon, which is a different F L D S, which is different from LDS. So she says, growing up fundamentalist, I was taught that I had the right to say no, but I was but I was supposed to be always pregnant and to provide as many bodies for spirit babies as possible so the spirit babies would be born to righteous families. I'm not fundamentalist anymore, and now I've been married to a mainline Jack Mormon for six years. We both work 40 to 60 hours a week from home. We're tired, but it happens at least once a week because we're around each other so much.

SPEAKER_03 35:53

Dude, yeah, it's it's basically just be barefoot and pregnant. And I you know what? So one of the things you don't know is that I have relatives, uncles, that are about the same age as my brother and I. I have two uncles. And that is because that's the mentality of the Mormon church is that you should be barefoot pregnant. And my grandma, I think, was told that at one point in time. I was told that my grandpa said you either need to get a job or get pregnant. And so two more kids.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:25

When their kids are having kids. That's kind of how things are done. And probably since that last one, it never happened again. I don't know. It's a wild thought, but you know, that's the what we're taught is it's for procreation, it's for making babies. But if that's the case, why did God, this all-knowing, all-seeing, all loving God, make it fun?

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Mm-hmm. Right?

SPEAKER_03 36:51

Why?

SPEAKER_04 36:52

Why does it feel good?

SPEAKER_03 36:55

CSS.

SPEAKER_04 36:56

CSS, baby.

SPEAKER_03 36:57

What is this?

SPEAKER_04 36:58

Um, a lot of these are women, and they're saying that they're taught to pretty much follow their man, that there isn't a right or wrong number, but whenever the man wants it. Um that which is really terrible.

SPEAKER_03 37:14

Um I don't think it's whenever he wants it. No, it's the real thing is it's when you both want it. You should both want it. And it's not one person's job or responsibility to initiate, it's everybody's responsibility to bring something to the game. You know?

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:32

You can't just put it all on one partner and say it's all your duty from here forth and so forth and forever. So it be decreed.

SPEAKER_04 37:40

Yeah. Um, this person is in, was in a high demand um Christian religion. And she says, My youth pastors, a married couple, taught us that it happened at least once a day, or else it's not a healthy marriage, which again is very toxic. Like there is no right or wrong.

SPEAKER_03 37:55

Like it it's not there's no number that's like it's the number of times that it takes you both to be satisfied and trying to work together so that that number's the same is the goal.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Where you're both happy.

SPEAKER_03 38:09

And that's what we've found. This is the more one of us, one of us always has the drive, and if they help the other one to exercise the muscle, it seems like you know how many times I've come in in the morning and I'll be like, I'm not now, not now, it's not happening yet, and then literally 30 seconds later it's happening now because that's what Tanya chose. And Mark has no ability to resist, apparently. But every morning I think that I'm gonna overcome this and I'm gonna wait just a little bit longer, and I never do. I don't understand if I have all this willpower, if I can't why I can't even postpone it for 30 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 38:45

I'm just that good.

SPEAKER_03 38:47

Convincing. But that's the way I feel like that's the way it should be. It should be so desirable and so fun that you're like, you know what, fuck it. I I everything else I've got to do right now can wait for just a little bit because this is the most important thing on my plate.

SPEAKER_04 39:02

But that's desire. That that's what we're preaching to people that they need that well that is what we want people to have in their marriage is that desire.

SPEAKER_03 39:11

Where you're like, we just want to share it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_04 39:13

And that's like that's our gossip. We can cut that out. I I wanted you to cut that out because I'm we're not gonna cut anything out. Okay, fine.

SPEAKER_03 39:18

It's staying in there.

SPEAKER_04 39:20

Anyhow, desire is what we want married couples to find. We want them to have that want for each other where you crave each other, where you're like, okay, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna wait. I'm I don't want to do it right now. But then you're like, okay, nope, I'm good. I'm come on over here.

SPEAKER_03 39:36

Yeah, but it's not always spontaneous desire, it's that desire that builds, and it's because we start everything so early. Like it starts literally the minute we wake up.

SPEAKER_00 39:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:45

The minute we wake up, we're we're talking and we're affectionate towards one another. There's no I hate you, and we're not still mad about some shit that happened last night.

SPEAKER_04 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

You know, we're moving on.

SPEAKER_04 39:57

I think the a lot of the I think the point of that Reddit story is there's so much toxicity in purity culture. Either they're taught they should do it more than they want, or they're taught they should do it whenever their husband wants, and they don't matter. Um, they should they're taught that it really doesn't care what they want, or they're talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 40:18

Without teaching them any of the skills, zero zip zilch about how to appreciate it, love it, and be good at it.

SPEAKER_04 40:25

And there's a couple of them where the women were taught that it's not even supposed to benefit them, it's not even supposed to feel good, and then they find out it feels good and they're like, huh, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_03 40:33

Like oh shit, I accidentally liked this. Is this bad? And then they feel guilty about liking it.

SPEAKER_04 40:39

Exactly. It's so toxic.

SPEAKER_03 40:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:41

Where you really you just need to find a spouse that you connect with that you're attracted to, that you desire, and you can come to a safe, normal spot together.

SPEAKER_03 40:52

Chapter five. What actually heals all of this?

SPEAKER_04 40:56

What does heal this?

SPEAKER_03 40:59

You know, for us, we had to actually separate ourselves from the framework that taught us all this negative stuff. I think that was the biggest thing, and it was all the fear-based messaging around that framework. It was once we shed that, we realized we woke up and looked outside one day and were like, it's a bright sunny day, and I can do anything. And there's nobody telling me what's right or wrong as long as I'm not hurting other people.

SPEAKER_04 41:26

Can I tell you?

SPEAKER_03 41:27

What do we believe in?

SPEAKER_04 41:28

Can I tell you? The moment I stripped off those garments and I put on a pair of brahma panties of lingerie that was actually sexy, even though I didn't feel good about my body at that time.

SPEAKER_03 41:41

You know your body hadn't changed.

SPEAKER_04 41:43

My body hadn't changed, I felt like a new woman. Like I felt so sexy, so desirable, so alive. And after I took those things off, I realized how toxic they were and how bad they were for my mental health. Like it was bad. It was so freeing. It was like it was like freedom.

SPEAKER_03 42:04

It was it was no different for me. I want to say that honestly, when I took that stuff off, it was it was a struggle, honestly, because it you had that little extra layer of warmth, and you're like, oh my gosh. And then everything that we're taught around all that is that if we take it off, it's gonna, you know, we're surely gonna be shot. That's we no longer have our armor, yeah, is what we're taught. The fear, the armor, but I'm like, I don't want the armor because it makes me feel like shit, but also I kind of don't want to die. And it turns out that taking the armor off meant nothing other than me finding my own freedom and deciding for myself without having some dictator that made a bunch of stuff up decide what I should wear.

SPEAKER_04 42:50

Well, and can we talk about too the being able to cuddle together skin on skin and how much that builds your connection?

SPEAKER_03 43:01

When we decided that we were gonna sleep naked just because that was the way we we could build better connection, you know, we're redefining sex, you know, it's redefining sex as a connection instead of uh moral performance. Your morality, yes. It has no morality has everything to do with how you and I feel and consent. That's the morality behind it. If you and I both consent to something, it's moral.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:26

If everything is consensual, is it not moral? Absolutely, absolutely, you know, that's what we get to decide instead of having it come out of a book somewhere where the rules really aren't very well defined, honestly. You know, we were able to create safety around our conversations about desire.

SPEAKER_04 43:44

Yes, where we actually were able to connect on a deeper level, talking about desire, and that just wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

When we could be honest about fantasies, when we could be honest about fetishes, when we could be honest about kinks, all those things that we could. Didn't talk about before. Yeah. You know, when we were finally able to be like, you know, it's just taking the yes, no, maybe, and we're we're popping up, and you take the quiz, and it's like, oh, you too? My gosh. Did we just become best friends? Yes. Oh my gosh. Because when you get a match on that quiz, like that's a freaking red light. That's that's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 44:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:21

That's freaking total green light.

SPEAKER_04 44:22

And to talk about it together and realize that you're not fucked up. Like, this is okay. It's okay to want this.

SPEAKER_03 44:30

You and I, without talking about this, r arrive at the same thing being something that we find erotic, which is acceptable.

SPEAKER_04 44:38

Yeah, it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

I don't need I don't need a bishop or a head of a church or anything else to decide that this is okay for us. Neither do you.

SPEAKER_04 44:46

Nope.

SPEAKER_03 44:47

We both get to decide. You know, we're reclaiming comfort with our own bodies.

SPEAKER_04 44:52

Oh, and that was the big part of it.

SPEAKER_03 44:54

And that was the first time we ever went to the dozen resort.

SPEAKER_04 44:57

I think that's a big thing we being comfortable in our own skin.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

Jamaica.

unknown 45:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:03

When we went to Jamaica, I remember everything we've ever done for the first time. It's been like, we're just gonna go and dip our toes. We're just gonna see what it feels like. You know, so like when we went to a club for the first time, we dipped our toes. We thought we were just gonna dip our toes, and what do we know?

SPEAKER_04 45:17

We end up diving in.

SPEAKER_03 45:19

Yeah, just diving right straight into that headboard, and then we go to Jamaica and we're like, well, I don't know how it's gonna be. Like, we should we booked on the nude side, so we have to be nude. This is gonna be weird. And pretty soon we're like, uh, I don't really want to put on clothes. We gotta really gotta put on clothes to go eat. This feels like an inconvenience.

SPEAKER_04 45:39

Well, and once you literally, like we said earlier, if you strip, once you strip everything down, you realize how beautiful you are, even though your body's not perfect. You look at everybody else and you're like, huh, okay, she has a larger belly. You know, her ass is a little saggy, but she's beautiful. And look at her just walking around like she's just everybody.

SPEAKER_03 46:00

You realize nobody's personal. Nobody's perfect. That's absolutely flaws, but everybody's beautiful. But everybody's beautiful in their own right. Yep. You know, what makes people ugly is personality.

SPEAKER_04 46:10

And you talk to these people, and they are the coolest people, the most genuine people. Yeah, you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 46:16

Yeah. We had, and that was that was really the unveiling for us and the freedom to decide because we decided, you know, in the temple, there's the part of the ceremony when you're supposed to cover up your nakedness, you know. Yeah. And we literally on that beach got to strip all that away and forget all that forever.

SPEAKER_04 46:39

I really wish I could have brought those pieces to the beach and burned them in the bonfire, been like, here you go. This is what I feel about you covering my nakedness. Anyhow, the the fact is, I mean, you can really keep your values without keeping the shame. The shame can go out. You can still have your values.

SPEAKER_03 46:58

I want you to hear that very clear. You can keep your values without keeping all the shame. We have values. We do. We're not heathens, we're not sadists, we're not crazy people, but we do know how to enjoy and embrace each other's sexuality and whatever that looks like. Because we don't let other people's idea of what our sexual relationship should look like define our relationship. It's individual between you and your partner and other partners that you may want to bring in if that's what you do.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

And the one thing I think that I to I've learned is just to respect you and our relationship together. You know, that's one thing. We always respect each other.

SPEAKER_03 47:42

A hundred percent. Respect is the only thing because at the end of the day, nothing that doesn't enhance our relationship is worth keeping around. Yeah. If it doesn't enhance our relationship and our connection to each other, then we don't keep it.

SPEAKER_04 47:58

Where we go on where we go one, we go all.

SPEAKER_03 48:00

Yeah, and that's a Kennedy thing.

SPEAKER_04 48:02

Yeah, where we go one, we go all. If if both of us aren't on board 100%, if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no.

SPEAKER_03 48:07

Yeah, it's if it's not a fuck yeah, it's a fuck no. You know?

SPEAKER_04 48:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:12

Yeah. Here's the truth.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

If the version of your faith you were handed makes you feel ashamed of your own body inside your own marriage.

SPEAKER_03 48:19

That's not holiness.

SPEAKER_04 48:20

That's fear.

SPEAKER_03 48:21

And fear doesn't create intimacy.

SPEAKER_04 48:24

You know what does? Safety.

SPEAKER_03 48:25

And I would also say connection.

SPEAKER_04 48:27

As well as freedom.

SPEAKER_03 48:27

And fear doesn't create intimacy.

SPEAKER_04 48:29

Safety does.

SPEAKER_03 48:30

Connection does.

SPEAKER_04 48:31

Freedom does.

SPEAKER_03 48:32

If you grew up in purity culture and your sex life feels complicated.

SPEAKER_04 48:36

You are definitely not broken.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

What you are is conditioned.

SPEAKER_04 48:39

And that conditioning can be rewired.

SPEAKER_03 48:42

Luckily, because great sex in marriage isn't rebellion. I want you to hear that loud and clear. Say it again. It's not rebellion.

SPEAKER_04 48:50

It's alignment.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

And alignment now that is sacred.

SPEAKER_04 48:55

Amen.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

As always, we invite you to stay undressed.