EP16: Building Profits with Compassion | Bruno Cignacco

In this episode, Tony talks with Bruno Signacco, author of The Art of Compassionate Business, about how integrating compassion into the workplace can boost profits, improve employee retention, and transform company culture. Discover practical ways to foster human-oriented leadership, develop strong relationships, and create sustainable, successful businesses through kindness and empathy.

TAKEAWAYS

• The true resource behind business success: humans, not just technology or capital
• How compassion fosters cooperation, psychological safety, and innovation
• The importance of understanding employees' emotional, mental, and social needs
• Practical strategies for building compassionate workplaces (e.g., cross-departmental meetings, social events, feedback culture)
• The scientific basis and measurable results of compassionate leadership
• The role of humility and active listening in fostering human-oriented leadership
• How aligning company mission with human and environmental values shapes culture
• The impact of compassion on employee turnover and company profitability
• Practical resources for adopting compassionate business principles

CONNECT WITH BRUNO CIGNACCO AT brunocignacco.com

Get Business Smart Coaching helps entrepreneurs and leaders build better businesses and better lives on purpose with purpose.

Learn more about Get Business Smart Coaching at TonyBradshaw.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to the Get Business Smart podcast. And today we're going to be hearing from just outside London, England. We're going to be talking to Bruno Signaco. Signoco? I did I get it? I was close. And uh he is the author of the Art of Compassionate Business: Building Higher Profits Through Compassion. So I'm a big believer in this. It's just a different way of looking at business. A lot of times, business owners stay focused on, you know, just building profits and selling stuff. They don't think deeper about their business and what impact they can have. And he is the owner of human-oriented enterprises. So welcome to the show, Bruno. I'm excited to be talking to you today about what it means to have a compassionate business and how you can boost your profits through compassion.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

Thank you, Tony, for the invite. I feel very honored to be here. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

Yeah. So in the in the pre-show, as we were talking, I love how you look differently at business because a lot of people just kind of do the same thing. They're cookie cutters. They learn how to build something. They learn how to sell something. They learn how to market. They learn how to hire and they learn how to fire. And in that time frame, they they just do these same things over and over and they don't really look deeper into their business. I wrote an article today about five things you can do to build your team to have better profits. And so it's not around sales, it's around building your team, making sure your team is strong, investing in your team. And so I'm pretty excited about what you're talking about with compassion because that seems like one of those things. You know, how do you bring a different mindset to your business? So why don't you tell us what that actually means?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Very interesting question. Well, first up, let's define compassion. Compassion is connecting to others. And when you're connecting to others, you are understanding how they think, you understand how they feel, especially when they face challenging circumstances. For example, ordeals, predicaments, and try to help them whenever possible. This means understanding how they think, how they feel, and try to support them as much as possible. Why is this so important for business? For example, a manager can be compassionate with their subordinate, or for example, a customer service officer can be compassionate with customers. Why so important? Because many people wrongly believe that the most important resource in business is artificial intelligence, technology, financing, information, and the most important resource, with no doubt, in any business organization is the human being. The human being is a meta resource. It's a resource that will help companies generate other resources. The human being will help develop new technology, more innovative products and services, new business models, new ways of interacting with customers, new way of promoting the product. When we care for the human being, all the other aspects of business take care of themselves by themselves. So the idea is that when you are connecting to others in a compassionate way, you are more prone to foster an environment of cooperation, of psychological psychological safety, of support, of mutuality, and people tend to respond alike. Why? Because you care for them and people tend to reciprocate. Instead when you behave in a dismissive way, in a non compassionate way, in an unkind or an appreciative way with others, you tend to receive the same call from them. You tend to receive the same treatment, and these people are less prone to cooperate, to support you when you face challenges. So this is quite important because without relationship, without a very strong, robust set of relationships, no business can succeed. Because companies are interdependent with customers, with employees, with suppliers, with business partner. They cannot succeed without them. Wouldn't it be nice to have them on our side? You can afford them to be on your side, but you can develop a strong relationship when you care for them and they're more prone to care for you. And in that way they are more prone to support you, to cooperate with your company. So compassion is key. It's a soft skill, like many will say, but it's not so soft, because there is a lot of research that corroborate the fact that when you treat people in a compassionate way, they consider them more supportive, they feel less frightened or less fearful, they feel more capable, they they can develop their creative skill, that their critical analytic analytical skills, and they are more prone to support your company in an unconditional way.

SPEAKER_01 4:47

Yeah, I love uh the way you're bringing compassion into the business because it's one of those things that actually can apply to like every part of the business. So if you're dealing with employees as a leader, you need to have compassion. You need to know what that means. Now, most business leaders don't really have that uh naturally. Um, I didn't really have that as a person, like compassion for people. I was kind of like just doing my thing, plowing ahead. And then one of the therapists I was dealing with, we talked about that. It's like you don't have empathy. Empathy is another word. You know, you have to have compassion, sometimes you have to have empathy for people, to put yourself where they're at. You have to, you know, feel what they're feeling so that you can then relay that compassion back to them. But as a business owner, you need to have compassion for your employees, you need to have compassion for your team leaders, you need to learn what it means to have compassion for your clients that are coming in, your customers that are coming in. So when you start to care, that's one of those things that say people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And when they know how much you care, they can respond to that because they feel valued. And I think that's what you're saying is you know, you need to know how to make your employees, your clients, you know, everybody in your circle, like the company itself needs to know what it means to make people feel valued. Is that kind of what you're trying to say?

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Very, very important. You're right. And also they think about this because most business owners have a very restrained view of business. They believe that it's only about economic needs. For example, you might say you are the owner of the company who say, I pay good salary to this employee. That's it. And this is not enough because you are satisfying their economic needs. But these employees, like any other stakeholder, have other types of needs that are as important as the economic needs. They have emotional needs. For example, they need to be recognized, they need to be supported, they need to feel appreciated when they contributed to your company in a meaningful way. You have to recognize them, for example, in a monetary way, for example, with a bonus or increasing salary, or with an event where you make this public and you recognize them in front of the colleagues, but also the employees like any other stakeholder have mental needs. This means that they need to be stimulated. For example, training them, coaching them, mentoring them, allowing them to develop new projects, the need for novelty, and also employees like any other stakeholder have social needs, the need to relate to others within the workplace and outside the workplace. What I see here in the UK that it's very common, many companies organize social events at the end of the week. Where employees can meet, for example, Friday evening, and they go to a pub or a bar or a restaurant, and they can talk about any topic except work. And the manager can be talking to the subordinate one-to-one, equal to equal, and they can know each other on a personal way. And when they go back to work on Monday, they feel revitalized. They know each other much deep in a much deeper way, and they have better rapport and better cooperation ties. This is quite important. So employees like any other stakeholder has economic needs, social needs, mental needs, and emotional needs. Most companies focus only on the economic needs. This applies to any other stakeholder. Because if not, we are considered only one tiny aspect of this human being, and we are very multi-dimensional.

SPEAKER_01 8:27

Yeah. And I think we're seeing more of that in the United States. I think if you go back, you know, 10, 15, probably 15 years, you really had this economic exchange that was really how the workplace operated. It was, hey, you go to work, you get a paycheck, you leave. That's it. There's not a lot of the relational stuff going on. Sure, some people do things outside the office, but it wasn't part of the DNA of the culture of the company. And that started to shift probably maybe 15 years ago, maybe 20, but I think it's definitely more prevalent now. One of the companies a friend of mine ran, they used to break off at like three o'clock on Fridays and just play music, like crash in the president's office, and he would play music and they would drink or whatever they were doing. But it was much more of a social atmosphere at the end of the week, kind of like what you're saying at the pub. But that was going on, and uh, you know, it was a different structure. You know, for me, one of the things I used to do with my employees or team members was take them to lunch. You know, I was a goal to take a different guy to lunch pretty much every day. Um, and uh that way I could go through all my employees in a certain time frame. And uh, you know, as the numbers got bigger, that got harder to do, and you got to like a hundred people, then you got like a hundred days or a hundred weeks to do these luncheons. But those luncheons were pretty powerful for small businesses where they then they valued them because they're like, oh, he's taking me, my boss is taking me out to lunch today. And I don't think I really realized how valuable that was to the team, but later I saw I'm like, oh, this is actually really important to them that this happens, you know, because I'm just a guy. I don't think of myself as anything special. I'm not some like royalty that should be anointed for being in leadership. I'm just the guy that is doing the job. And uh so I think that's a big part of it too, is having a little bit of humility. Uh, when you're looking at compassion for businesses, the leader has to have a little bit of humility, I would think, so that they can actually uh bring in that compassion. I don't think people can be very compassionate if they don't have a little bit of humility.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

I agree, I agree. And I want to say something else that is related to what you mentioned, that is most leader, most business leaders tend to be quantitative oriented. This means they are focusing on quantities, on what can be measured, what can be counted. And for example, sales, market share, profit. These are very important aspects. Some will call this key performance indicators. What can be measured, what can be compared from a period to another period, this is quite relevant. But besides this quantitative aspect, there are what I call the qualitative aspect of business. What are these qualitative aspects? Compassion, kindness, gratitude, generosity, appreciation, kindness, care, and camaraderie. And why they are so important? Because without the qualitative aspects, you cannot obtain the quantitative aspect. The qualitative aspects are very important to foster robust relationships with different stakeholders, with customers, with employees, with suppliers, with community members, and you care for them. This is the human side of business. And when you foster this strong relationship with stakeholders by focusing on qualitative aspects, this stakeholder will help you achieve the quantitative aspects. Customers will help you sell more. Why? Because they come back, when you treat them well, they come back to your company, they will leave positive reviews online. Employees, when you care for them, they will help you be more productive. Why? Because will work the extra hours, they will not work by the book. They will work in a very unconditional way, in some cases without asking for additional compensation. And the same applies to supplier, community members, and others. So this means that paradoxically, when you focus more on qualitative aspect, indirectly you are achieving more quantitative aspect. Why? Because you have a very important basis of relationship, a strong relationship with stakeholders, and everyone is on your side. You are not forcing them because you cannot force them. They are on your side spontaneously and unconditionally. Why? Because you care for them and they feel prompted to reciprocate. Wonderful, wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 12:56

Now, uh, have you done any work on this concept of compassion in the workplace to where you can say quantitatively there are some real values that you can produce inside the company. So you can say, hey, here's the here's the proof that this concept works.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

There is a very clear proof. Uh well, we advise continually companies on on the aspect of workplace. And what I see in the workplaces, when we, for example, visit the company for the first time, is that most workplaces, not only here in the UK but worldwide, they are fear-based workplaces. What I see there is not strong relationship with each other within, for example, the subordinate and the manager. No. On the contrary, they are fear-based interaction. This means what are the fears that I generally observe in the workplace? Fear of being filed, fear of making mistakes, fear of rocking the boat with innovative or crazy ideas, fear of being outpaced by colleagues. And when you are in this fear-based workplace, you don't have psychological safety. This means that people feel not unsupported, they feel treated in a non-compassionate way, they feel treated in an unkind way. In some cases, there is a lot of harassment or bullying or negative psychopolitics, for example, snipe remarks, wars, favoritism. And this create lack of cooperation. This create a lack of psychological safety and people feel unsupported. We visited a company that has a very strong fear-based workplace with a very strong culture that fostered instead of cooperation, competition between the colleagues, what was very difficult because they have to work as a team. And we observed this company callers because the sales were going down. We checked the sale of the last six, seven months, and they were going down like a plunging irremediably. And so what we observed, we have a little survey, and we observed that employees obviously was a very anonymous survey, and we employees, the most important aspect was fear of connecting to others, fear of sharing information, fear of being fired, fear of making mistakes, fear of appraisal. They are very fearful of being given feedback by the manager and so on. And so what we try to obviously, fear is incompatible with compassion. You cannot be fearful and compassionate at the same time. So we made a report explaining to the managerial team about this, and we implemented very simple policies. Very simple policies, but we suggested and they end up implemented, very simple policies like, for example, highlighting first the scientific basis very briefly. We didn't want to get too technical of why treating others in a kind way or in a compassionate way generates a positive cycle of reciprocity. And we mentioned a very well-known study that is that show that when you have a psychological safe workplace, uh in any psychological safe workplaces you tend to have higher employee satisfaction, higher customer satisfaction, lower absenteeism, lower stress level, higher productivity, lower turnover, and more profitability. We showed the specific scientific study, but also we encourage cross-departmental meetings. People were unwilling to meet with other departments because of competitiveness and competition between departments. We encourage at least once a month to have cross-departmental meetings to discuss also innovative ideas. There were no suggestion boxes. We encourage also the introduction of suggestion boxing where employee can provide with some out-of-the-box ideas to improve the processes, the system, especially related to their areas. And so cross-departmental areas, we suggested suggestion boxes too, and we suggested also social events at the end of the week, at least once a week or every two weeks. And they follow most of the point. Let's say 90% of the suggestions that we made, we said when we will get the result, when we will get these people were very quantitative. Let's give three, four months, three, four months, four months will be more than enough to know. I'm not sure if we can listen, you have been with this situation for more many years. So four months is not a lot of time. They were very cautious, they were a bit not very trusting, but I said, okay, so you will see and we visited the company five months later to check, and they were kind of surprised in a way that they couldn't believe. And I said, can you show me the spreadsheet? Can you show me can we compare before and after? Like a kind of transformation. And they couldn't believe there was a very important for that situation that was critical, 10% increase in sales was quite good. And so they said, oh, but this will stop. No, no, this is the beginning because this creates positive ripple effects that are cumulative. We saw also that there were some areas of feedback. There was one area that they didn't comply with what we said. We said that the feedback should be conveyed in a compassionate way, because what also we noted that the employees were kind of frightened to receive feedback, and also they were chastised, they felt that they were penalized, they were like uh punished every time that they so we suggested to introduce this little bit that was not really introduced because we checked, and so then we visited the company one year later, and this company has a 20% increase in their sale, what is quite um expected. In my case, I was expecting this. I was more realistic, but this exceeded a little my expectation, but uh I was expecting improvement, and this was quite good. And this continues, it's not like a the rich the rich the ceiling. The they continue growing and they created a different type of culture from a fear-based culture to a much kindness-oriented culture. So this means that treating people well is not only being nice, bring about specific quantifiable results, tangible economic results.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Yeah, I love what you're saying there. You know, 20%. You said 20% increase, 10% after five months, but 20% for the first year. Yeah, those are huge numbers, you know, when you look at that. Uh some companies are hoping for 5% growth a year, and you're talking about they boosted their sales by 20%.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

Now they were very low. So this means that the baseline was very low, but it was very good because the baseline they were negative, so they got nearly neutral, but the idea is that it's uh with this increase in the numbers, but I will say that they were surprised, and it's counterintuitive because you expect leaders to be much more open to this type of perspective. If it didn't work, why you would keep on doing the same thing? But these people gave the benefit of doubt to this different approach, non-traditional approach, and this paid dividends for them.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Awesome. Now, one thing you mentioned, you mentioned several areas that having compassion in your company actually boosts, but one of those was employee retention or turnover. So for you guys listening to the show, you can see different numbers. But if you end up hiring somebody that lasts for six months and ends up uh quitting because of turnover, you know, that's a lot of money. You're talking about $30,000, $50,000, maybe even $100,000 that you're spending to bring these people in that don't work out for whatever reason. But one of the things I've heard, Bruno, is that people don't leave companies, they leave leaders. And so they won't leave the company, they'll leave the leader that's leading them, that is a poor leader, that doesn't have compassion for their team that creates problems. So talk about that a little bit, you know, where you see these gains in turnover.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

I I can see, I can see, because the leader is so important, it's the example, the role model to emulate. In my later research, I have a full appendix on compassionate leadership or human oriented leadership. How is a human oriented leader different from a traditional? traditional leader. Both leaders try to inspire and have a good vision so that they have the follower abiding by their vision, but this is not enough. The leader should have be a good role model. For example, compassionate leaders are humble. One of the most important virtues is humility or humbleness. So this means that they are not the leader that knows it all. They are always always open to hear others, to listen to others, to get some insight. This means that they know that they have blind spots and they have a learning mindset. This is quite relevant because leaders that are human oriented they can learn from the janitor cleaning the toilet or from the CEO from a compet competing company or from the managerial team or from the customer service officer. Any person could be a very important source of insight. But also these leaders are continually training themselves, catching up with the new trends, knowing the technological advancement and also open to different perspectives. For example, these leaders are very prone to these famous cross departmental meetings where they can have the view from the finance department, from the human resources department, from the administrative department, from the production department, and these leaders are prone to also understand when people face difficulties, these leaders are prone to be flexible. They apply the policies but when people are in trouble they prioritize the person. If they can help them for example let's imagine that a person has difficulties at home and this leader is a human oriented leader. This and but we have strict policies of attendance at work. This leader is human oriented will say you know what this person has challenges at home. It's a good employee let's care for them. Let's give flexible hours to work let's allow them to work a bit later and then can cover the hours. Why? Because they know this leader knows that the most important resource the meta resource is the human being. So they try to foster strong relationship with others. And they are not in an ivory tower. They can connect to one another with other people as equals because they can learn from each other. They don't create a separation that they create rapport with others because it's the only way to understand things that they might not know well and to learn from others.

SPEAKER_01 24:43

Gotcha yeah yeah those are good things uh when you mentioned humility it's not something you hear talked about that much in leadership but it is really really critical. What's interesting you know I would say you know back in my leadership days when I had a team I don't have a team right now but I used to think I was humble and I'm like oh I'm a humble guy. And then as I I think I got further along I realized maybe I'm not quite as humble as I thought I was and so I don't think I was arrogant or you know overconfident or anything like that. But I think it was more of a blend. It was like you know maybe a bit humble but in some ways not you know I'm a little too focused on other things. But yeah that that that element of humility is a real deal for leaders who can actually listen to everybody can take what the best is out there that can be offered from different people on the team. Like you said the janitor the best leaders learned even from the janitors they can take this information in and the young leaders young entrepreneurs that can be a very difficult thing because you're right everything's writing on you, right? It's writing on you being able to make the right decision. It's writing on you because you're doing most of the jobs, wearing most of the hats. So to actually step back and think that somebody on your team knows more than you can be a little bit of uh daunting. But would you say that just that ability to listen is part of that compassionate equation as a leader.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

It's important it's important because the ability to listen listen actively also but also not only listen to others but also being more aware of their own weaknesses. Humility implies also being aware of their own weaknesses and also facing the hard facts what I observe with many leaders they do not face the hard facts even when they are in front of their faces. Why? Because facing the hard facts in some cases imply admitting that they were wrong. A humble leader admits with no doubt, with no delay when they're wrong for the reason they're humble but they also recognize that they have weaknesses and they are trying to do their best to improve to to transform these weaknesses into strengths but also they know that they cannot can never know it all. And they are willing to have the best advisors from different fields and discipline legal aspect, accounting aspect, tax aspects and so on and also they're willing to listen especially customers. I see some leaders here in the UK they are continually with a notebook traditional way taking note oh what do you think about our services? Oh how can you improve? So this means that they're not complacent. How can we improve? So they are implying that things can be always do better. So they are not complacent in a way that you say you know what we reached the summit we cannot do anything better. No, they are humble because they know that they can always grow and they can always add value not only to customers but also to employees to suppliers to business partners these are value adding leaders. They are always willing to add more value. And this means that they are generous because they know that by adding value to others they create an imbalance a positive imbalance you are giving others more than they expect and they feel indebted with you to give you back. Customer for example if you give them more value and more value as a human oriented leader serving them in the best way possible this customer is indebted to give you positive reviews more recommendations and in San Jesus they give you their loyalty to your compact. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Well okay I got one more question for you and then we'll move on so you're bringing in when you bring your concept of compassionate business into play you're actually dabbling or messing with the actual culture of the company and so as you're bringing in this new cultural twist into a company I would imagine that you need to start with the CEO. Is that where you start or do you bring it in through different levels and work it into the organization?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Depending on the company we cannot generalize a standardize the procedure but first off I think that everything does not start with the leader. It starts with the company's mission. In many cases what we do is we review the company's mission. What is the company mission is the purpose why they are in the marketplace. Is the mission only economically oriented or has human aspects and has environmental aspects what I call the perfect mission. The perfect mission the meaningful business mission includes economic aspects, how we will grow, what market we will cover, what type of product, but also social aspect will build a strong relationship with people and support community and so on and environmental aspect how we will live a better world from the environmental perspective not only for this generation but for future generations this means sustainable if the mission is only economic and the mission is the guideline the big guideline the super objective that guides all the company's activity maybe some tweaks in the mission need to be introduced and also some tweaks in the corporate values that also in some cases that are only economically oriented. If this mission is well integrated by with economic, social and environmental aspect then we see the leadership style is the leadership style authoritarian or is the leadership style more people oriented, people focused, a democratic leader or transformational leader, or servant leadership so we analyze there are different in San Kissing there is a combination and it's a mix. Why is it so important? Because the wrong type of leadership also as we saw give the let's say it's authoritarian and is a bit unethical well this will bring about a negative role model that other people will have a free pass to act in the same way as the leader. So this means that the leader is a very important factor in the culture because it's a role model is an example to emulate if the leader is acting correctly well we have to see then what happens with the environment within the company are there any negative aspect of politics like turf wars, gossiping, favorities on and so on are there any type of fear that is pervading so this means that it's multidimensional and this will vary from company to company. Some companies have a very excellent business mission but then they don't put this into practice. They say oh we want to care for the environment and then they sell products that are polluting the environment well we highlight the incongruency you say this in the business mission you say that you care for employees too you care for the environment but people are leaving this company turnover is very high you you are polluting the environment you don't have any green certification so then there is an incongruence so the incongruencies in some cases are so evident, so interface that when we show then you say you know what this is what you said you promised and what is the negative aspect of leadership overpromising and under delivering overpromising and under delivering the human oriented leaders underpromise they are humble and overdeliver. They try their companies to give more than people expect more to employees more to customers more to the community there's they're surprising in a positive way they have what the the psychologist call a positive disconfirmation they surprise people in a positive way. They are generous they give in excess to customers to employees to community and these are the the leading companies you cannot compete with them why because they are far away they don't think about only the economic as oh we cut costs here or we increase these are only they give more that people expect because they focus on people and they create a positive cycle of generosity research clearly corroborates the fact that when you are generous you prompt other people to be generous. Generosity begets generosity gratitude begets gratitude stinginess self-centeredness foster the same type of behavior in other people so we want good principles we want principles that are human oriented and leaders that are human oriented try to take into account these noble principles.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

Awesome awesome Bruno yeah I love the way you're putting that and you know it is very serious you know putting compassion in your business I think a lot of business leaders need that if they would start that way it I think they would be a lot better off in their business if they could start that way but it doesn't start off that way but it is something to bring in so okay last question what are two good business resources could be books, podcasts, YouTube channels whatever that you would recommend to the audience?

SPEAKER_00 34:14

Well a very important book I want to say the title right that I read many times is The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People from Stephen Covey this is a very important book. I read this when I was very young and so fundamental this book was written a few decades ago and it's still timeless. Why so important? Because this book highlighted the importance of fostering this strong relationship with people as a priority not as a secondary activity as a priority in life and this relationship could be in business with the family with friends so fostering relationship is a key priority in everyone's life business life and personal life and research corroborates the fact that people are happy when they have a strong relationship with others a very important longitudinal study on happiness observe that people in different areas of their life have are more prone to be more happy when they foster this strong relationship not when they have more money or when they succeed in different projects. Secondly well I would say the second resource is any other book of Stephen Covey that are very good and I love it. I love him and you can get these editions in some cases the original editions on online any book I think that the one that I mentioned is the most important one but they have more specific books about relationship interdependence any book about Stephen Covey. Awesome yeah appreciate it well Bruno man has been really good how do people get in touch with you find out about you learn about this compassionate thing that you covered well well my second book second edition of the book The Art of Compassionate Business is out and this book can be found online or offline worldwide and it was published by Rudlich and this book includes hundreds of examples of organization profit organizations and non-profit ones that are very human oriented that they are very successful economically speaking and they can find me one of my website is www.brunosignaco with double c at the end.com they can find me on LinkedIn where I post different um articles and also insight about my research.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Awesome Bruno well appreciate you man I love your energy and uh what you're doing just looking at businesses a little bit differently trying to bring a slightly different flavor and improve these businesses in a lot of different ways. So thanks for being on the show. Thank you very much