Oh I'd Do It Again

In this interview, Jason's friend, The effortlessly cool, man of few words, quick to clown, superb athlete, but better father and husband, and such a genuine friend, my homie Josh Ferguson comes thru. Tap in to hear us talk about the responsibility of showing up for those who depend on us, the power of believing in people, offering second chances, and modeling the kind of character and work ethic we hope our children will carry forward. We also discuss raising kids according to who they actually are, supporting their unique strengths, navigating the pain of having incarcerated family members, and doing whatever it takes to make our families lives better even when that means sleeping in your car hahaha.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

First off, man, I really appreciate you coming on, bro. Yeah, man. Thanks, man. So this is my homie Josh uh Ferguson. We met almost 10 years now.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Yeah. It was 2015. I guess yeah. Is it 2015? It was almost 10 years to the dot because it was fall of 2025. I'm sorry, 2015. Fall of 2015. Fall of 2015. We started January of 2017, 16, maybe 19. 16. Maybe might have been 16. Okay, that's right. We're coming up on 10 years. We're coming up on 10 years. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:31

Um, but yeah, we met, we went through Fire Academy together, and then we just became good buds, and then you know, life takes its courses, and we just we've never been on the same platoon. So we've never really had a chance to ever work together, but now we're at the same station, at least. Whatever.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

See him passion.

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Yeah. But um, but no, I mean, Josh is just a person who I think we connect for a lot of different reasons. There's so many that I would talk about. I mean, one, we were like the two other black folks of the department had seen since Jeff Byrne. You know what I mean? So it did it kind of put us a little bit on the aisle, like him and Xan.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

I think the timestamp was like almost it was 27 years. Uh that a 27-year gap between Xan and Bird, whoever was the latter. That was 27 years. 27 years, and then us.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

And then us. Yeah. So yeah, so then we came in on that, and it was like being able to speak in some ways the same language, like we gotta do good. Yeah, we gotta kill it, we gotta like, you know, we understood what was going on.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Like, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Yeah, we had to play the game a certain way. And then, but from that too, also just like met families, people I dated, and then we got much closer after that, too. And then um just our kids at the same time, kind of too. And then I think also we share another thing, which is that we both have brothers that have been and just family members have been impacted by the criminal justice system very different ways, to be clear. But uh at the same time, there are just so many different connection points, I think. You know, so that we became friends outside of all that other stuff. So, but I just wanted to have you on, man, just to sit and bullshit with you for a minute because we fucking never get too dark. Yeah, we never get too.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

I mean, it's always like we'll see each other in passing and be like, all right, I gotta get on the rig because we gotta go do something, or I gotta run because I gotta go be somewhere.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Yep. So now it's good to do it. And I always feel like it's always like that five minutes, like real quick, like, how's the kids? How's your lady? Yeah, how you doing? How's everything at the crib? All right, man. Good. All right, take care, brother.

SPEAKER_00 2:19

But you know how quick that five will turn into 15, 20, 15, 10.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Especially with me, especially with me, man. I need to work on that shit. Me and Waldo hung out a while back. We were up till fucking like two in the morning. I woke up that next morning trash, and I was just like, this is what happens when we don't talk for like six months. Yeah, feels like so much shit to catch up on. So hopefully this will help, man. But yeah, I think the big thing was I just wanted to uh I wanted to have you on, man, and just to to to take a second because I think there's so much about you just as a person that I like really revere. I think lots of parts of who you are I look up to, both as just like the way you love your kids and care for them, the way you are as like a partner, and just like you know, how well you do the job and just the way you you you kind of carry yourself as a person, the things you advocate for. And we've like done a little other stuff when I did the manual way back, but I also just think you're just a voice that I I respect and trust. But um, but yeah, man. So I guess my first question is, bro, like, how do you feel like where you're at now? I mean, since it is almost been 10 years, how has that journey been? Because like you're not from Washington, right? So, like, where are you from originally? Because we should probably talk about that too.

SPEAKER_00 3:23

Uh, from California. I was born born in Hayward. Uh, it's kind of a I don't say a weird, a weird deal, but like I was born in Hayworth, uh lived in Hayworth all my life. Um in about third grade, I think, was a third grade where I started, I found uh Oakland Powell, one of my basketball teammates from my CYO league. His dad was also an AAU AAU coach in Oakland. And so he was like, hey man, come play on this team. So about third grade, uh, I started spending a lot of time in Oakland. Um practicing, either practicing four days a week with games on Wednesdays or you know, weekend, but spending a lot of time. Both parents worked in Oakland. Um, so I started spending almost every day of the week in Oakland and got exposed to a little different type of culture. The Bay Area in general is its own little culture, but you'll hear people say, like, I'm not from the Bay, I'm from Oakland. Um there's you it might scratch your head at the surface, be like, Well, but if you're from the area, you kind of understand what that means. So being exposed to a little deeper part of that Oakland culture, that young. Uh so like I'm from Hayward, sure. Um, like to think of raised by both Hayward and Oakland because exposed to a whole lot um pretty young early on. So yeah, and you got that twang.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

I've always envied that fucking so cow twang, but I never had a twang like that. I got that Pacific Northwest accent, so I don't I don't have no twang, mommy. Every time I hear like Marshawn Lynch or somebody talk like that, I'm like, I'm like, man, that's not just like furgs. That shit is so clean, bro. I just I don't I never had that shit, man. Um, but no, and then and then and then football was a big part of your life. And then you at some point, you know, played D1, then went pro, blah, blah. And then when you transitioned out of that, you worked in corrections. Yep. Correct? How long did you do that for?

SPEAKER_00 5:06

I worked in corrections for three years. Juvenile detention uh in Spokane. Oh, worked there for three years. Uh right across the street. Sorry, right, you're good, you're good. Right across the street from the adult jail. So, like I can look out the window and see the adult jail right there. But um, did that for three years and uh it was a good experience, just like all the other things that I've done, um, for the most part, uh impacting the youth in some sort of positive way. And so the challenge for me was to show up every day at work and how can I affect whoever I might run across. Some of them, like sad to say, but some of them are just lost. There's no, you can't reel them back in. And so I would show up every day with like the hope that even some of the worst ones that were in there for some of the worst charges, if I can establish some sort of relationship with them, um, I know what it was like to be back, you know, looking at life through those lenses, and there were still like drops or seeds that were planted by people that came and spoke to me or that I heard speak, that it didn't develop at that moment when they came to speak, and it was five, ten, fifteen years down the road, where it's like, oh, that's what he meant, or that's what he was saying. So hoping to provide that for some of those kids that I work with. Um, but it was uh it was it was a gift and a curse. I couldn't do the 12 hours uh inside, basically in prison yourself, because I couldn't I couldn't leave whenever I wanted, couldn't have my phone on me, had to stay awake. I was working the night shift, uh, had to stay awake. So from 4 p.m. to 4 a.m. was my shift. Oh damn. And this is after you know, dad in it all day, football practice, whatever. Uh but that was my shift, and so we had to find ways to keep ourselves awake. But uh that was the part that wore on me that kind of was like, I gotta find something different. Uh this isn't there's no longevity in this. This is a good, a good, uh, a good place to stop for a second, catch my breath, and I know I'm established, and but this isn't there's no longevity in it.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

When you did it, did you feel like a lot of folks had the same attitude you did towards those young dudes?

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Some did, but uh one thing that I noticed I be years before I started working in detention, I was a substitute teacher, and very similar, where at the time I was one of the younger substitute teachers at these schools that I was going to, and some of the older teachers had kind of checked out and they were there for the paycheck, just like in detention, like some of the younger ones that hadn't been burnt out would show up with that same focus and energy desire to like make a positive impact. But we also had a few that were like, I've been doing this for 20, 25 years, so I already know how you're gonna turn out, not gonna waste my time with you, you know, and so on.

SPEAKER_02 7:42

There's no real just not giving cats, like you gotta try at least once, right? Just kind of see what I see, try to judge a book by its cover, right? And then okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah, okay. And and my mentality was like we had groups that were we were assigned to, like, they broke down to the detention into four different groups, and I would always bid for the worst group, which is like they did a decent job of separating um you know these charges over here compared to these charges over here, and I would always bid the worst group. Those kids are gonna be in there for a long time, they're not going anywhere. I can establish a rapport, build a relationship with them because I know they're not gonna be playing this in and out game, and you're here. We got we gotta figure it out and how to make it you know positive for the both of us. So I would bid the worst group, and I had a kid that was in there for a long time. Um, and uh me and him built a really strong relationship. He was he was he reminded me of me when I was back in his age. Um, and so I built a really strong relationship with him and kind of like not to say that you win somebody like that over and you get the respect of everybody else, but everybody sees how I uh socialize and how I address him, and it makes all the other barriers easier to break down when they see like okay, he got through this guy that you know um so that was that was a really cool part of the gig. But I don't I don't think there weren't many others that approached it with that mentality. People came in energetic, but I don't think as far as like the mentality of uh I don't want to just be here for a paycheck, like I want to actually make something. Trying to make an impact, yeah. So uh there weren't there were there were a few, but uh at least to my knowledge, I wouldn't say that that was an overwhelming number of people that had that mentality.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

It's just interesting because I feel like even and I and not even remotely the same thing, but like you know, what Nate does, you know, where he's not actually in a jail, but he the you know the cats are the kids are released, and then he's trying to whatever the the stuff that my homie Nate does with you know incarcerated young men. The fact is, like Yeah, like he's you know, he says a similar thing, like he works really hard on behalf of them. It's like a big passion, it's like his whole gig, you know. But that it's hard to find people that have the same level of passion and and br and ascribe to those folks the same value. Right. Like of like, hey man, you're worth trying for, you're worth trying to, like you said, establish a rapport, see if we can get you move in a direction that's that's significantly more positive than maybe the trend you're going on, and the the kind of cascading effect for both their life, the piece of the actual institution, your life, whatever, and just it's cool that you did that. Do you think like that kind of came out like because I don't really know exactly what how old you were when your brother was incarcerated?

SPEAKER_00 10:25

We're looking at well somewhere around 12 years or so. So I was late 20s. Okay. I want to say at the time.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Were you in corrections at that time? I was not you were out of it. I was out of it. Like you'd already done it.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Uh no, I had I hadn't been there yet. You hadn't been there yet. Was that at all a factor? No, funny enough, um Mia, my daughter in Spokane, uh going through a bunch of court stuff with her uh and her mom. And my attorney at the time was like, hey, you got a degree? Like, yeah, uh, what's it in? Criminal justice. I was like, uh, the juvenile detention center is hiring benefits, um, you know, retirement, good wages, uh, decent schedule. I'm like, all right, I was like, I was working, I was refereeing at the YMCA. I was doing there before and uh before and after school care, and I was working the front desk. I was working three different jobs all at the YMCA at the time. And so she pitched that, and I was like, I bet that jumper was crispy though. You were sneaking off, shoot it a little bit, yeah. But uh, but yeah, so she threw that and I was like, all right, so I shot it and got the job, and that was how I landed it, but it was completely unrelated to anything my brother um you know was going through, or he'd already been through some stuff, so it wasn't I didn't go and choose that that occupation because I had some exposure to it through my brother. Right. That was just my attorney was like, Hey, here's you can make more money doing this. Okay, okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

So then after you did that, bro, like you left and then you came. Like what kind of got you making that transition? Because you left out of that, and then was it like as soon as you were in corrections after those few years, you were like, the next thing I'm gonna do is fire, or was it like you were kind of just searching, then all of a sudden you found your way there?

SPEAKER_00 12:05

I was just uh I wasn't really searching. Um, a couple of guys that I got that I was working with, um, one of them was like, hey man, we should test for the fire department. And I tested the first go around with them just to see and was like, okay, and then didn't get it. I missed the interview phase for CDS Spokam by four hundredths of a percent. Damn.04, right? So I called, bro. That would have pissed me off. And I'm me being green, I I don't know nothing about it. I knew nothing about the fire. So I called a lady, like, hey, I know I'm 0.04% short, but I've never had a job that I've interviewed for that I didn't get. Right. Can I get an interview? And she was like, sorry, numbers are numbers, I was like, cool, I get it. Um, so I went back and applied for a supervisor position at the detention center. And I wasn't ready for it. I really didn't want it, but the supervisor's kind of similar to our gig, like you worked that job for 2025, you retire out of that seat. Um, and it was probably a blessing in disguise because the guy that I was up against had worked down in the detention facility and went up to probation and wanted to finish out his career as a supervisor in detention, and so uh they chose him knowing that he only had at max five years left. So I'm sitting there with you know, two and a half years in, like, everybody knows he's not gonna be here in five years. We're gonna sit here and do this again. Or I mean, I felt like I interviewed well, I was a legit candidate for it, so I felt kind of burned by that, and I was like, I'm gonna go test again. And so I went and tested again, and uh, I was so broke, I I could only afford to send my scores to one agency, which was Bellevue.

SPEAKER_02 13:44

Bro, and then I've been telling them they need to get over this motherfucking hump, dude.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

But they and then the public safety matched, you know, because you could pay for when they match one. Yes, so they matched it with City of Spokane and Spokane Valley or whatever. So those are the two agencies that I sent scores to when I tested for the the next the next go around. And then did you get both? Uh maybe, but again, I don't, I wasn't, I got bellvuse, start the process. I could care less about anything. Like, we're out of there, bro. We're about still sending my email, like you never replied, but yeah, I got I got the Bellevue, uh, the Bellevue offer, or at least they opened the door for me. And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:22

So okay, killer man. And then I mean the part we always tease you about in Academy is that for some reason, bro, which we just have to talk about because it is the greatest, the greatest fucking heist you ever pulled on any of us, was we would go do shit with Fergus and be like, yeah, man, you know, he's got uh you know, he's he's got a place to stay. And I had a condo in downtown Kirk. And I'm like, hey man, I'm like, and I had a house that I was renting at the time with the kid, and I'm like, hey man, if you want, you can crash with the car. Like, no man, I got my own spot. And then like years go by, homie, and I'm listening to a podcast, and he's like, Yeah, man, so tell me you made it through that academy is pretty brilliant. Like, yeah, man, I was sleeping in my car. I was like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_03 15:02

Like, you can't be serious, bro.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

But I remember you had a hellish commute because was true born?

SPEAKER_00 15:09

True was born in October uh when we got hired. Okay, and so we started the academy. He was like three months, four months old. Dang, how what is his birthday? October 29th. 2015?

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yep, uh 2016.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

20 oh 2016. So we started 17.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Oh, that's maybe what it was, right? Okay, because I was like, because Huck was real little when I went in, but I was like, okay, but he was bigger than that. All right, okay. Yeah, so yeah, because then I remember just like seeing that. Well, but what was the deal? I'm just curious about that. I know it's something that me and Waldo talk about every time. Like, why did you never be like, yeah, man, I'll take you up on it.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Um well, there there was a lot of things that that contributed. So one, I didn't have the gas to be traveling too far from the training center to get to like I had a place to stay. Um my sister-in-law, always an open door in Seattle. I was close to that. I was eight minutes away. I know, I know. Uh, I had I had several uh I wouldn't stayed with uh friend down in Tacoma. That was too long.

SPEAKER_01 16:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

But that's a drive, but pretty much anywhere outside of Bellevue, yeah, it wouldn't math out for me gas-wise, if in order for me to be able to make it back to Spokane at the end of the week. So I had to stay like dude. If we drove around the city, I could point out easily a dozen different spots, like, yeah, tucked off over there, over there. Bro, we need to do that trip, dog. I gotta see this. Funny enough, most of those uh spots are in uh threes area and sixes area. Yeah, crossroads, you would have been set up, dog. But most of them were in threes and just uh find a quiet little parking lot, had a blanket and a pillow in the back. And my routine, so I would like to get out of the academy. We we'd kick it after after class while we know Waldo and those guys are waiting for traffic to die down. And after we would finish studying or whatever, um I'd go to the YMCA, maybe get a little workout in. That would be my time to shower, uh, get cleaned up, hit the safe way in sixes, grab uh the Tuesdays, the cheap chicken, too, whatever, or cheap, it might have been Monday. But that was my gym. I don't know how I didn't pick up on because I had lunch, so I can go eat a couple pieces of chicken that night, and then I'd have lunch the next day. Um how were you keeping that chicken cold? Uh it was cold enough in January, February. This is wild. This is wild. Uh but um yeah, and then I would find somewhere to tuck off and you know, doze off, get up in the morning, be ready to go to the game.

SPEAKER_02 17:30

And grinded, bro. And we were getting beat up, dog. How you did all that sleeping your car, man, that will always be to me a remarkable feat, homie. That was crazy. I wish I wish, I think that's something that for sure our department's gonna have to find a way to to potentially address, is just like what we're gonna do for folks that don't have. I think there's a lot of like preconceptions about where people are at in their life and how they're coming to the job. Hey, not everybody has the same socioeconomic position, and like not everybody can afford all these tests, not everybody can figure out how to do housing and travel if they do get the job. So we set up these barriers that prevent really capable people, which we would have almost missed you, you know what I'm saying? Like, so it's just a crazy story, bro. I I'm like, I'm so glad you made it through, dog, and like to your credit, man, that's a remarkable thing. Um, now that you're in it this far, is it still good for you? Still good for the family?

SPEAKER_00 18:19

I'd do it again. Yeah, with without a doubt. Cool, man. I'd I'd do it again. I I probably would tell Katie a little sooner on because she was so mad she had no idea. Uh because she had no idea. I knew that if if if I told her uh what did she think was happening? I had a homeboy in Seattle that had a little studio that I would stay with, and I would hit her up when I was you know staying with him. Yeah. Um and enough frequency for her to think you were there every night. Yeah, and well, this is before uh she could track my phone too. Like we weren't married, so she couldn't track my phone to verify uh exactly where I was at. But she didn't even she didn't know. She just you know tap in with me after uh you know their day is over with, let me know how the day went, and then we'll see you on the weekends, pretty much. Because she had her hands full back home too. It's not like she was just kind of sure. She had a newborn, so uh but by herself. So that was also kind of what what was able to you know make it make it work basically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:16

No, kitty's a G. I I I I always enjoy talking with your wife. I always like she's such a like she's such a good classic to me, like mom, who like also just kind of has a little bit of an edge, which I kind of like. I kind of like that about her. Um, and especially because I feel like she's so protective over you and the kids, and like always just trying to look out and just a hustler like you. I think you guys both have that like thing of like life's a little bit of survival, yeah. And so you both push really hard to like show up in big ways for each other, for your kids, for your family, you know. I mean, I think it's something that I always really I envy in the very best way, right? I think it's such a lovely thing. So that's really cool, man. I'm I'm I'm so glad you made it, man. But man, it's just it's just crazy, bro. Like, I was literally driving eight minutes and crashing out, like in a two-bedroom. I'm like, bro, you could have easily had two beds. I'm like, eh. And I just was going to bed, waking up, like studying at the crib, making a you know, a PB and J, hitting the sack or something. So it was a much more low-key experience, man.

SPEAKER_00 20:15

So there were a lot of people mad that I didn't say something.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

I was never mad. I just was like, well, not mad, but like like, why didn't you say anything?

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Well, also because I mean, like, we love you, dog, and we're also just such a part of our like little crew that we were like, I think anybody would have been like, hey man, we don't want to, we didn't want to see, and I think that's also why our classes had so much success is like that whole group to their credit was a group that was invested in everybody playing well. It was so like I feel like we completely avoided the high school bullshit. I feel like no one had a massive ego beyond the one cat who got snipped from our squad. Like outside of that, everybody I think was like wanting to see everybody win. So then to find out you were out there just shouldering this like ridiculous ass burden, we were like, bro, we would help you with this.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

But I mean, I mean it worked. I would I didn't want to be treated differently. No, I got you.

SPEAKER_02 21:05

No, I got you. No, I respected it for sure. I just was like, you know, but anyways, well, if I'm ever in that situation, bro, find me a place to sleep. I got you. But no, man. Um, but outside of that, man, now like the other thing that's really cool, man, is over the last like few years, man, like your family has just expanded a lot. You know what I mean? In the best way. You have such a great squad. But like, how many kids you have? What are their ages?

SPEAKER_00 21:30

Got four kids. Um daughter Mia. Uh, she's 13. Yep, just just hit the teenage stage. Um, yeah, she lives in Spokane, seventh grade, uh, nine, nine and a half, true. Um third grade. Valen is five and a half. Mania. Yeah, young Val. That's my dog. He doesn't know it, but that's that's my he's the uh the definition of tough love. Like I know deep down it's in there, but he gives me. Run like he he beats me down a little bit. He's a tough guy, uh, but he'll start kindergarten this fall, and then uh Raj, the new addition, yeah. Man, uh eight months old, just a handsome devil, dude. Yeah, such a sweet guy. I think he's gonna be the one that um Valin has his his days, yeah. I think Raj, he's been almost for the we're almost a year into it now, and he's been so chill, easy going, calm. I know it's gonna hit the fan at some point. Oh, you think so? No doubt about it. I think he's saving it all for whatever, whether it's the twos, threes, I'm gonna say it'll be about that age where it's like, oh, you're a monster. This the the first year was just to get us like you know warmed up. Uh, but I know it's down in there.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Is that how the other boys were?

SPEAKER_00 22:41

True has always been pretty chill. Uh, you know, being the oldest and pretty much an only child for the first four years, or he was an only child. Mia would come, you know, for the weekends, you know, our schedule. But uh for the most part, it was all about him. So he never really uh until Valen came, it was easy to kind of like relinquish some of that spotlight for him because he had a good run, he was old enough to understand kind of what was going on. Gotcha. Okay. Um, and then Val. It's funny because um Valin, I think the Latin, you know, meaning is like strong-wheeled and 100% accurate. Probably the root of Valor, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But he the whole reason that he has locks is because he wouldn't let us brush his hair. When he was about a year, year and a half old, he would not let us brush to the point to where he started, he had a dreadlock in the back of his head that we either had to cut or turn it into, you know, turn the whole head into locks. And so I was like, well, if we cut it, we can't, I mean, we have to grow it back out, but if we lock it, we can always cut it. So let me try and lock it up. But he fought like tooth and nail every time we tried to brush his hair, and so we ended up just letting his hair lock up kind of naturally. It looks great, it can't came out good, but yeah, man. He's uh he's he's the stubborn, tough one that um, yeah, he's he's a he's a character, he's a good kid.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So now that you have four, and then how long have you and Katie been together? 13? Dang, man. That's pretty impressive. We met at Hoop Fest. At Hoop Fest? We met at Hoop Fest.

SPEAKER_00 24:16

Was she hooping? No. Oh, it's like Katie can't play the ball. Oh no, Katie can't hoop. Sorry, baby.

SPEAKER_03 24:21

I was like, you said hell, not two strong.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

She she plays soccer, but she can't. Uh I was uh player for the shock, and um in June in the summertime, if we're in town, we can go watch Hoop Fest. And I had no idea that was the biggest three-on-three. It is the biggest three-on-three tournament in the world. It's nuts. And so I was there uh, you know, with the team, and we had a mutual friend that introduced us, and so that was how I met her at Hoop Fest.

SPEAKER_02 24:46

Oh, okay. Yeah, shoot, dude. Loving basketball, right? Yeah, yeah. No, man, that's cool, bro. And then uh, how's it feeling like now, just like where you guys are at in life? Because you guys got the dope spot, you got great kids, you know what I mean? I think how do you feel like it's all going though? I mean, it's what it looks like on the outside, right? So I'm asking you, how's it all going? It's still a lot.

SPEAKER_00 25:09

I know it's a lot, but I'm like, is it uh it's weird because all I know is what I was exposed to as a kid. So watching my parents and how they navigated their relationship, they were they my parents were married all up until I went to college. So I saw them together pretty much my entire childhood. Or I did see them, you know, my entire so to compare what I saw growing up to what me and Katie have, it uh I feel like we're still kids navigating through life, but we have kids ourselves, and like because all of this is new, um, you know, it's a different vibe, right? Yeah, so it's and I can't really, I don't I never gauge how I'm gonna parent. There are things that I'll like remember, like, oh, this was effective, or I remember this, but we're all different. So um learning and fumbling our way through this together has been a little bit, it's been everything, it's been a balancing act, it's been, you know, there's been some friction, there's been a lot of love. I mean, it's it's been everything, which is probably the best thing about it. It's like we both understand that um where she might fall short, I'll pick up the slack, and then vice versa, which is probably the more likely scenario where I'm falling short, and then she's gonna pick up the slack. So um it's been it's been a a finely tuned dance where everything's not perfect, but we make it work and like at least give the appearance that things are are great. But I mean, I wouldn't know any different. If it looks great on the outside, it's great on the inside. That's cool, man.

SPEAKER_02 26:32

Yeah, so I love to hear it, dude. I just feel like I think you guys are such a squad that I really just like you just you know, there's people you know, and also just like family setups, and like I know how much goes, I don't know everything, right? But I mean like I know enough to know that there's a lot cooking in your life, always. You know, it has to be with having one kid in Spokane, then you got your three here, brand new baby, and all everything that they need. And then on top of it, you guys both have very demanding careers, and so it's just like anything. Like, I know there's a lot shaking, so I'm always just like so hopeful, you know. I'm like, I want it to go so good because it's such a good squad. So it's like it just makes me happy on the outside looking in, everything looks great, but it's just like I was just checking in, just making sure, you know. Yeah, everything's um it's hard, it's just hard to hold it all together, and people rarely talk about it because everybody wants to look like everything's perfect, you know. I mean, like, you know, our job, like you might talk close with certain people, but like you really have no idea, right? And I'm always like, but then all of a sudden something bad happens. I'm like, man, I wish you would have told me, bro. Like maybe we could have helped you out. Maybe you it would have been beneficial to have someone to process shit with or bring questions to, or just something. You know, it's hard to do life alone. There's so many scenarios like you were talking about, like you and Katie being kids, falling, you know, you know, kind of failing upward a little bit, like you make a mistake, you learn, you do better, but it's not like you know exactly how everything's gonna go and every right choice to make. But that's like one of the benefits I think sometimes of our jobs that doesn't get utilized enough is like that ability to have an actual community where you can bring some of those things to just be like, yo man, I'm in this spot. What am I doing about this? Or like this isn't going exactly right, or my son's doing this, you know what I mean? And you have the people you do it with, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's helpful to have that.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

It's tough too, because that's just not who I am as a person. So um I'm pretty reserved. Uh trust goes a long way. It it takes a long way to get, you know, to get trust. Gained in drops, lost in buckets. That's all my days. Absolutely. It's a great way to put it. Yeah, yeah. Couldn't have said any better. But that's so if something goes sideways, um, I've always shouldered some of the worst things, and you know, people don't know what's going on. So uh, but like you said, you have your select few that you can talk to, and like, you know, whether it's a watered down version or whatever, but it's just it's tough because I've always been that way. I've seen how being too exposed or too vulnerable can end up, and that's kind of just what's what's molded me into the the human that I am today. Um grew up seeing that kind of thing. So um that's kind of where like uh a lot of like my demeanor and the way that I process things and like my relationships. You've always been cars close to the vest.

SPEAKER_02 29:14

Yeah, so that's just I mean, but that's that's like my brother-in-law, but it's like you know, he's Muslim, so it's like the evil eye. So it's kind of like I can't be, I can't be letting people see. Anything that's good, it's like you gotta keep that tight. Yeah, but but I I fuck with it. I think the thing is I grew up in a world where like the same kind of thing, yeah, where people kept cars close to the vest. And my my other experience is like you should ask for help. You should have talked to someone both ways. No, it's just funny. It's just funny because I just not that at all is wrong. It's just like it's just funny how like I'm this way because I saw how when there was like this thing, it was like, bro, y'all are in a cave, and like not one time that you go like, hey, we need help in here, bro. Uh, but no, man, I I I love to hear it, man. That's really cool. I'm I'm glad that everything's going so well. And now that you're like deep in the game on the job, I feel like it's crazy how quick time goes. Weird being, you know, as far in the career as we are, and like also, you know, you're just still at that point now, like starting to hit that like more middle senior spot on the truck crew and kind of having more, you know, having younger dudes on you. It's just like weird. It feels like we were just in that spot. How are you liking kind of the role and the way that like work has fit into your life and stuff, man?

SPEAKER_00 30:27

It's funny because it almost feels like it's the same way with like fatherhood and my marriage. Like, I've I've been doing it for a while, like I've got a flow and a process, like I understand how to make it work, but I still feel like I'm young in it to where like I'm feeling my way through it. So, like, same like the fire service. Like, yeah, we've you know we're 10 years in, been on the truck for a few years, uh, got some younger guys underneath this, but it's like I'm still I'm still learning, still learning, trying to get better. Like, you know how much there is to learn, like the skill side of it, and like there's a lot. So uh, but I still feel um that not that I'm lacking, but like I don't want to be the weak link. Yep, and so I don't ever see complacency, like, oh yeah, I don't need to, like, or whatever. Like, if the guy, you know how it is, we're always training doing something. I could never see myself like, oh yeah, that they got this, or I don't need to go. It could be something I've looked at over 50 times, but I still need to go and watch because I might learn something on the 55 minutes. 100%, 100%. Um, and so it's there's that side of it, but then also being the guy that the younger guys might look up to. And I've always been uh at least like to think that I've been a leader by example, maybe not necessarily by like the way that I speak or giving the big rah-rah speeches and that. I've always liked to lead by example. Uh so hopefully just the way that I set the stage and the way that I attack the day, or whatever the drill is, or whatever it might be, um, I don't need to say a whole lot, but hopefully I can just display that leadership by the way I carry myself throughout, you know, my career.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Oh, I totally think so. I mean, I think that's actually one of the things that is like, I mean, out of our group, me and Waldo or the Chetty Kathes. You know what I mean? I I think in so many ways, like it can be just the person who's like, man, I show up in the things I'm I'm tasked with, my obligations, I do those well. I make sure that I'm I manage my section of the yard. And so that way, like, I can be accountable to that, and therefore I'm reliable. And for people that are coming up trying to figure out how to like find their way in anything, you know what I mean? Like, that's a nice thing to look up to. And you're such a helpful dude. Like, if someone doesn't know, you would be one of the first people to be like, man, oh dude, let me help you out. So I think that's the other thing too. You just have, I think maybe that comes from the same spirit you had with the the young dudes at the correction facility or doing substitute teaching, right? Just that your ability to see people that are in a position, like, dude, let's make it good. Like, what do we got to do to make that good, man? So that's really cool. So now that you're in this spot, bro, like one, I think the other thing too. I don't know, I probably won't put this in the podcast, but it was cracking me up. Drew was I can't remember what were you just teaching a class?

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah. Uh were you so we did uh Tech Rescue Day with the Academy with the recruits. Okay. Was that recent? Yep. This was a month and a half ago, maybe something.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Or were you doing like were you doing trench? Did you just take a class? You just take did you have to or uh confined space? Did you have a class left to take?

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Uh I'm um I had to back out on confined space this upcoming week. Okay, but we just did auto X. That's what it was.

SPEAKER_02 33:24

Auto X, and then someone was cracking a joke, and he was like, Yeah, you were down there before Rockwell goes, Yeah, you were down there all week with Ferg and his muscles.

SPEAKER_03 33:32

And he was like, I can't remember who he was fucking with on the crew. It's Engman, maybe or something.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

I I love Drew. He's uh he uh I love Drew because if you don't work with him and you don't spend much time around him, yeah, yeah, you don't really know a whole lot about him because he's not gonna give you a whole lot. And so working with him at Sevens for you know a handful of months, uh learned a lot about Drew. He learned a lot about me, so we got it, we got a good relationship, and he's always got he's always got those one or two liners where yeah, always holstered and ready to shoot.

SPEAKER_02 34:04

So yeah, uh, he he he's such a good dude. It's been great that he joined the crew, man. I learned a ton from him. He's a super competent guy, so it's been it's been really fun. Um how's everything for you, man? I know that like we talked about touched on your brother a little bit, but curious about how you're doing with that and how you're kind of carrying that all the time. I mean, I know that's something that's that weighs on you. I try not to I think I try to be due judicious about letting you, I think that's one of the things, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but like I don't I don't try to bring up the stuff that I know in your life is heavy. I assume that should you want to talk about it. Right. And most people, other people, I would check in on them. I would be like, hey man, how's everything going with that? I do it occasionally, yeah. But when you see me most of them, I'm not gonna be like, hey, how's everything going with you know the situations in your life that are that feel like they're more complex, and like I feel like if you have this spot and you want to talk about it, I'm always you know, it's always been that way. I'm always gonna listen and pick up and do whatever I can to help. But I am curious in this one instance, if you want to talk about what you also don't fucking have. Yeah, now we can hear. But I'm just curious to know how you're doing with that, man.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Uh it's uh trying to think of the best best place to start. There's a lot, right? So uh he's been down for, like I said, 12 at least 12 years now. Um and the climate of today in the country socially was way different, way different back when he was arrested. And there was no COVID. Uh there was a lot of things that hadn't happened in this window since he's been incarcerated to where we're at today. And so throughout this roller coaster of appeals being denied or failed motions hearing, whatever, uh, what have you. So that's kind of one aspect that we have no control over, like the vulnerability of being at kind of the whim of the judicial system, like you're powerless in a sense. Like, there's you can do everything right, and you still don't get the result you want. And that's that's kind of a tough reality to swallow. And the toughest part about it for me is like I'm not the one that's impacted by this. Like, yeah, I am, I am, but the direct impact is by proxy, right, is is my brother. So like I don't um I don't spend a whole lot of time in my head about like, oh man, like it'd be nice to have like I got one brother. It'd be nice to have him out and be able to share with him all the things that I go through and experience life together or without having to, you know, communicate through glass. Uh but I don't that that weight is nothing because I understand the like one, I've worked in that environment. Um and I like you said by proxy, I know what he goes through. So um trying to be uplifting and positive and be kind of a safer space or you know, a glimmer of positivity when I talk to him, I never let how I might be feeling about his situation show anywhere, really. Uh like it wears on me, but it's not something that I it's none of his business, right? Uh so I don't, and then that just kind of like trickles into my daily life. Like people, there's a lot of people that we work with that have no idea about you know his situation. So um, yeah, I don't I don't I don't feel the burden, the weight of it. The one thing that I have been feeling lately, uh just watching all the Supreme Court things and just everything with uh you know the judicial system today and some of these different rulings, and I keep a close eye on that stuff because I'm always interested to see on how things turn out and the way they unfold um in the climate of today, uh racially, socially, however you want to spin it, uh isn't great. And so watching how everybody navigates everybody navigates through that and then trying to like make sense of what he's going through has been a little a little tough um because uh it's been amplified more recently, it feels like. And so yeah, that's uh it's just a tough, a tough thing to deal with, but I'm dealing fine with it. I'm just trying to, you know, stay stay positive for him and you know help keep him in the right head space.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

Yeah, man. I think it's a it's a tall task, also too, just because like you know I mean it sounds like every time I talk to you guys are super close. Yeah. And I think the I'm sure he is, you know, as much as you talk about him, I'm sure he is concerned about you. And I think that's the other thing too, is like that that experience of like being so excited to hear about all the stuff you get to relay to him about your life and all the things he gets to be a part of too through you. And I always have so much hope for that that scenario, man. But I just know it's something like we talk about this all the time, like you know, seeing gonna have Bryce on or any guest, it's just like what it is getting older, like people just walking around carrying heavier stuff. Sometimes I'll like see someone who's like my granny, she's 103, and like I just know a lot of what she's been through. And whenever I see her, I'm like, bro, you're just carrying fucking massive stones, like just huge weights that like none of us can see, right? And she's so generous with like all the kindness and warmth and like love and joy that she offers to so many of us, but I'm not fooled, yeah. I'm not you know, I'm not like there's some shit popping, and you're doing a crazy good job of handling it, and just the people I care, but I always want to just check.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

Yeah, so you know, you never have to feel like uh again, like I'm not somebody that's gonna be like, hey, by the way, we just lost this appeal, or hey, you know, like it's just um or like it's just even any any information really around that, unless it's like great news, that's kind of like not that I'm waiting for that day, but that's just not you know, but anybody that asks, one, I know if somebody's asking is because they care. Uh because I've only shared that information with people that have cared enough to ask, and you know, continually asked. I get asked all the time by um people at the department, different officers, people I work with, they always check in like hey, here's your brother because I if he calls, I'm gonna pick up. Right. Like I'm not, I will never not pick up.

SPEAKER_03 40:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:21

So a lot of people are exposed to my situation just through like, oh, you know, I got sorry, I gotta take this phone call, explain it later. Um, but so yeah, people check in and ask all the time, and I know that the ones that reach out and you know ask, especially multiple times over a long course of time, like I I keep track of that stuff, and uh I'm always willing to share with those that uh take the time to ask or that show that they care. Um people are curious, I can you know break it down for them, but it's also not something that I'm like willing to just throw out there because there is a lot of judgment that comes with it, and we hear stuff all the time. So uh yeah, I'd rather not get get in too far into that side of it and spend more energy on the side that matters.

SPEAKER_02 41:10

100%. I think even and it's a different, very, very different scenario. But even like even when you go through something, like even when my brother died, that whole thing of like I knew his story, like him going to maxec, being there for a number of years, how much that altered his life, even when he got out, and all the hard things he went through. Certain cats knew, but it was also like one of those things that like like anything when you go through stuff that's like rough, like people can only offer you so much space. Right, and I already know that people are going through other things, and my thing was like it's changed in different seasons, but like sometimes I'm down to talk about it, and sometimes I'm like, I don't want to talk to you about it, even if I have talked to that person before, yeah, and I trust them. I'm just like sometimes I'm like, nah, man, I don't really want to, you know, and it's weird how that it kind of ebbs and flows, you know. So, but okay, well, that's good to hear, man. I'm glad to know that like you feel like you do that at least have some you have like a network, I guess is what I'd say. I've respect that's that's a good deal. Um, but one thing I think about a lot is like you always have a scheme. I know right now, like it's so funny. I think it actually might just be like a firefighter thing, bro. But like I it's like you for sure have a scheme because like if I'll tell you, like, nah man, I'm about to do this, I'll do that thing. No, no, that didn't work out. So I'm gonna get rid of that. I'm about to do this thing over here. It'd always be some, and then it'll be some other thing that I'm like, oh yeah, I'm like, man, grass growing so fast, I could barely cut it out. I was like, oh man, not me. I got a GPS guided lawnmower and does all kinds of shit for me, and I don't have to do it.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

But that thing has made life so much easier. It was um, I wouldn't say it was a necessary purchase, but I got my money's worth already because I got a fresh lawn outside of the rainy season when people are mowing. Every weekend I hear the whole neighborhood mowing. Yeah, and I'm in the in the backyard, you know, tossing the ball around or in the front and shooting hoops, and my yard is crisp seven days a week. So uh should be an ad.

SPEAKER_03 43:08

I love it, dog. It is what it is. I love it. If I fuck with it, that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Yeah, I I love the reaction because we got a what? Like everybody's yep, I yes, I did. I went and did it. Uh, and it's been well worth it. I'd do it again. If it broke down to me today, I'd go grab another one.

SPEAKER_03 43:21

Hey man, that's such a strong ass review, bro.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

The time that you know, like cliche, but like what can you what price can you put on time? And so to be able to spend the time, like it would take me the way that my yard is shaped, I either have to pay for a zero turn mower, which would like uh more than what I bought the robot for, or I'd have to push mower it or ride on, which would at least an hour and a half to two hours every week if I want to do it weekly. And so, what are the day five, six, seven? What does the glass grass look like then? 100%. But if I spend what I would have spent, half of what I would have spent on the zero. Turn on this robot that's gonna do it for me every two days. Don't have to worry about clippings, don't have to worry about the time, and I can go and do whatever else, you know, spend spend that time with the family. So it was a no-brainer for me. I love it. Easy money.

SPEAKER_02 44:14

Do you got a scheme going right now? Anything you're trying to do?

SPEAKER_00 44:18

Uh I got a bunch of projects at the house, but uh the scheme is just trying to make money, make more money so I can fund those projects.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

It feels like, tell me if you're feeling this. You all got four kids. I mean, so y'all you have to be feeling this, but like it feels like it's the most expensive it's ever been to be alive. Oh, yeah. Do you feel the pressure the most now economically that you're gonna do that?

SPEAKER_00 44:37

I was just thinking about that last week. Like uh the the cost of everything is one thing, like we're pretty good with our money. Um, but it's like having to plan ahead because uh even though that I I don't pay for gas, I got an EV, Katie still pays for gas. And so like the things that we would want to go and do, we got a couple of trips lined up that we're gonna be, you know, road tripping it. So like that thought is always there. Like, how is the cost of gas and the cost of all these different things gonna affect what we're gonna do in life? Um, and so it's been a little bit of a burden, but uh I've always been one like God has always figured it out for me. If I haven't been able to figure it out, or I'd like to think I figured it out myself, God has always looked out. So, regardless of whatever today looks like or tomorrow, um, God has always looked out. Always like without a doubt. So if gas hits ten dollars tomorrow, might struggle a little bit, but figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 45:31

I know he's got me. Yeah, so I also think too, you you are just like such scrappers that like you and K will come down like nah, we're doing this, and blah blah. Like, nah, man, we opened up a we're doing a kitchen out of the garage, whatever. Like, I opened up a carpentry business and I'm doing whatever, like now I'm doing like which is which is like it sounds so funny today to people. Like, anytime you tell people about like hustling and having like side hustles or multiple jobs, there's like a certain kind of almost like elitist attitude, you know. I remember having conversations with guys from different generations in the job, and they just come from the whole thing where it was like we made enough for you know my partner to stay at home and to have these kids and do that. And I'm like, Yeah, the game might be a little different now, but like sometimes it could be hard to hear, but I'm like, man, I was listening to my granny tell about um last time I was in East St. Louis and she was talking about like what her hustle was because her husband, my grandpa, I guess, had um kind of a decent job in an era when there was still a lot high volume of segregation, but also on the side, my granny was like doing seamstress work, doing hair, doing all kinds, just having like, you know, and these were cash businesses, they're not like you know, whatever, but that's like what they did to make it all work. And so sometimes, like, whenever I'm like, oh yeah, I might have to like pick up this other side, I'm like, that's all right, bro. Like, this is what we always had to do, kind of. And I think in the same way, that's where so much of life is just like making it, like you said, just making it work and being like, hey man, like what happened? Like, we'll do we're the product of the generation we're in. And right now, it seems like everybody wants to cut tax breaks for people that have billions of dollars and let the rest of us fucking grind it out. Which I'm like, I'm not voting for that shit, but I mean if that's what you're into. So I think in the meantime, like I'm glad y'all are making it. I know that I see both you and Kitty hustling and just swapping kids. Sometimes I'm always shocked at how you do it. It's gotta be a full force like team game. Ships in the night, I'm sure, it's sometimes like passing and dropping and moving. I got work this, I got work events here, and like, oh, I got this, and I gotta pick up this overtime. And yeah, like I could see where it's a tricky, it's a tricky hustle, man. But you do it so well, and the kids always seem so good, man. So it's just it's an impressive thing.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

We've we've done it long enough now to where like it is what it is. Like, oh, we need to sit there this day. And most of the the stress that is involved in that, uh, I'm not gonna lie, it's because of me. Like, I I either forget dates or tell her something last minute or you know, fumble in some way. And so we end up having like stress, and she's like, I wish you would have talked, but it is like outside of my mishaps, we gotta, it's pretty, it's pretty coordinated, you know, our efforts, and we make it work. Um I was I was waiting for the day where I could sit down at the station coming off shift and you know, sit down, have a cup of coffee with the oncoming crew, relax, not have to rush. And it was gonna be this year, and then boom, pops out rage. So, you know, another five, six years, we're back to like it's gonna start over my guy. Eight o'clock. I'm out. I gotta I gotta be here, uh, which is cool. I mean, that's just that's just what life brought, and I can wait another five years for it. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

And you also gonna you're gonna have a fleet in a little bit here, right? Like you're gonna you're gonna end up having, I would say, I don't know for sure, but I would think like with truth um, then all of a sudden Kitty hopefully will have some more help as they get older, and she could be like, Hey, and then maybe that might slow your mornings down a little bit. So maybe it'll only be like three years or so.

SPEAKER_00 48:55

This has been the most help that we've ever had, just just by having true old enough to be able to help us go grab diapers or watch them while we make dinner, or yeah, this has been the most help that we've ever had uh consistently at home. Um, just just by having the two older boys.

SPEAKER_02 49:09

Do you guys feel like you're in zone coverage, or are you still man? Are you still man to man right now? Ooh, that's a good question. Val getting up there.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

I think we are it's kind of a hybrid. Yeah. Yeah, we're like a little bit of both. Okay. Sometimes we're man to man, sometimes we're zone. Okay. Uh yeah, it's uh it's a little bit of both. Yeah. It's a little bit of both. But yeah, having the two older boys, they're such good big brothers, especially Valen. If Valen was the oldest, um, true does a really good job. However, Valen's heart and the way that he looks out for the family. Uh if I could pick him up and drop him age-wise ahead, easy money. He's he is the Valin will fight anybody for any one of us, like legit.

SPEAKER_02 50:01

Um you guys done that little TikTok trend with him? You seen that? I haven't seen it. Basically, what you do is you gotta you gotta be like have Katie somewhere in the house with the phone on where he can't tell, like on the couch, or you put him on the couch, then you gotta open up the door and go, yo, we gotta go. And he's gonna be like, Well, I'm like, Scott here, he wants to fight me, and he's got a son your age. I see. And you have to fight, you see, and then and then there's always the kid's like, nah, I don't want to fight. This kid's like, nah, let's go, bro.

SPEAKER_00 50:27

I'd be very surprised if Valen wasn't like like the ones that are putting on their shoes, like, like what as they're getting the story. Um, it's too good. That's just that's just in him, which is great. I love it, because that's uh that's my idea of what a big brother should do. And he he does it even as a little brother. Like, if true had problems with the kid and Valin knew about it, I would go try and check that kid, no doubt. Um, so we're trying to instill that in true, and uh he'll get there. I told him you don't have a choice but to be a good big brother. It is what it is, it is the job. You have no choice, like there's there's zero compromise. You're the oldest, this is our expectation, this is what it's gonna be. Because part of like to kind of go back to my brother, I don't feel like I failed as a big brother. I know there was moments where I might have exposed him to a little too much and helped him grow up, you know, too fast. Uh, and I don't want to say I feel guilty about the way things unfolded. Um, because I can't I can't control some of the decisions or the places or whatever. Uh, but there is that thought of like when I went away to college and we were no longer as close, not only proximity-wise, but like I didn't talk to him every day when I was in college, and I was kind of where he started to stray. And so there is that thought, like, damn, what if you know? I try even tried to get him to come out to El Paso with me, and I was gonna take guardianship to be able to come out there and go to high school his senior year while I was going to school there, and that didn't work out. So there is a little part of me that thinks, like, you know, what what would that look like today if you know we either had remained as close as we were when I was because he even though he's he's five years younger than me, but he was always my right-hand man, always there, hung out with me and my friends. He was always around. So when I left for college, tough and you know how it is for like with for kids that grow up with bigger brothers and they spend time with all of the big brothers' friends, when they get around kids their age group, you you can't really tell them a whole lot. Like, nah, like I'm this is yeah, this is light work, right here.

SPEAKER_02 52:28

We would do in some way beyond this, uh especially a five-year gap. Right. That's a big gap.

SPEAKER_00 52:33

Yeah, so uh, but yeah, so that's why a big part of me is even regardless of whatever my brother's situation was, I I believe in you're the big brother, you gotta shoulder a lot of things, you gotta take on a lot of things, you gotta set the example. It's a tall task, and so you get you got your you got your hands filled, but I'll walk you through it.

SPEAKER_02 52:53

Even still, the fact that like there's that level of concern already in Valen with the heart of like the most important thing is my family. Yeah, it's pretty powerful to have that in a in a person that young. I feel that depth of like loyalty and like and even if he does have like you know, his spats with his big brother, it's like he it clearly understands the difference between you and me are having a beef and like what really matters, right? Like, that's this is a whatever thing, dude. You kicked my cars over, you won't let me use this, you're not letting me watch my show, whatever, you're killing my man in the video game, whatever it is. That's one thing, and then the whole separate thing of like, is everybody good? Yeah, that that's a different thing. It's a cool thing to see that kind of show up in certain human beings that you're like, oh shocker, you kind of got the biggest dose of that. You know, it's just kind of unique how that works.

SPEAKER_00 53:40

Yeah, I told I tell him all the time, I tell true all the time, like, dude, you you you will be a better big brother. I said, but you gotta understand, like Alan looks up to you. Like, he wants to wear the same shorts as you, he wants to wear the shade like you wear. He started all the drip. He started throwing his t-shirt over his hoodies like you, mismatched shoes. Like he wants to be everything that you do, like you're setting an example that he wants to be so bad, even through all the other, like you know, the petty, you know, big brother stuff, he still wants to be exactly like you. Um, it means a lot to Val and so I yeah, yeah, it's cool though, too, that you know something about that, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Be able to tell true that from the like the lived experience you have. Yeah, I got an uncle who I love dearly, my uncle Brian. He's the baby of the six that's on my mom's side. And his heartbreak, I think the one of the largest wounds, which isn't really anyone's fault beyond just the nature of what happens in life when your semi's get older and they move away. But his experience is always you don't understand. He'll, you know, he'll tell you in a moment where he's like a little bit tipsy. He's like it was like a field of heroes, like the Justice League, bro. And I was like the new man on the tunnel pole, and then one after the other, they all left. Not not against him, right? But like I got married, or I went on this military deployment, or football took me here, or but went to medical school, or whatever it was, like life just took people to these different places, and I think that that was an injury that like wasn't intentional, but I think that that level of proximity of how people stayed in contact. I think that's the part that was hard. It's like they didn't mean it, wasn't that they had ever forgotten about them, it was just that like they also maybe weren't told, like, hey, it's gonna matter not just now when you're here because they're gonna model everything after you. It does matter that you still touch base with them from time to time because while you're off living your life, which is so is totally you're right, you are still the biggest thing that this person knows till they get out on their own space, you know what I mean? And so it is cool to be able to have that insight and that they're so close, and then also I think Raj is such a good thing, too, for Val to like have any of that, you know, but like Raj's whole thing will be like, You're not getting it, dude. I had these two brothers, true was crazy fast. Val was knocking everybody out, and like it's just it is weird how that goes, and like you don't you don't necessarily pick that. I have that even with my sisters, man. So it's just cool that you've been able to keep those those boys so close and like aware of the value of each other. It's also fun to see them out. I just love seeing when all the boys are out, but dude, the best ever was when we did Huck's birthday, and then were you here when they were doing the bra jump? Uh were you here for that? I don't know. I didn't uh I might have been working on the biggest. Okay, maybe you were working, and then Katie brought him. Yep, I was working. And so then what happened is like all I remember was like they were here, and everyone's doing the bra jump, right? And true does really good, right? Sander does good, Huck does good, all his little buddies are doing good, and uh Valen is like it's everybody's in like fourth grader, and he's like, I'm like, all right, Val, it's here, Tinny's like, Yep, he's like more locked in than anyone else, and it's that pressure of like I'm not gonna be the worst jumper here with every and just that, like you can just see those big eyes, man, just like wanting to want to fit in. So that dude, just a really just a lovely little dude, man. Yeah, so um, if you were to say, man, ideally, what life looks like in the next five years for you guys, what are you hoping happens? Maybe it's still just everything stays the same, continues on this path, or is there something else that you're like hoping that you get to in a certain place?

SPEAKER_00 57:27

Or let's see, five years, choosing therapy grace. I won't be in high school yet. Uh so in five years, I don't hopefully not much has changed. Um at least at the bones of it. Uh you know, the development, all that stuff, we're gonna, you know, the continual progress is always the goal. Yeah, um, but hopefully not much has changed. Um you know, hopefully I I I can look up and or I guess look back and be like, you know, I'm doing a decent job. Uh because that's that's my metric. Like if I can if I can teach my kids one, like I said, lead by example, and then also teach them things that they can better themselves through and become young men and affect the world in a positive way, then that's kind of how like I'll gauge my success as a parent. Um, regardless. Like it's as fun as it is to see how uh they navigate through sports and you know, Valin and his art and this and that. Like what a talented artist. I the the gold standard, it it's like I haven't lost sight of like what actually is important. Like all that stuff is cool, and like we're gonna have a lot of fun watching, you know, all that other stuff, but uh I'll gauge how well of a job, you know, Katie and I have both done based on the type of humans that we've we've produced, you know, manners, uh morals, um, work ethic, all that stuff. So if we can continue, we're and we're we're on we're on par with everything. Like there's I don't I can't there's nothing that stands out where I'll be like, all right, we gotta we're gonna have to watch this, you know, for the next couple of years, or when he gets older, we're gonna have to watch this. There's nothing that jumps out at me. So hopefully we can just keep on pace with what we're doing. Uh we live a really good life, we enjoy, you know, a lot of things in life. So hopefully just continue to share memories and create memories and uh continue to grow and and and head in the right direction. But um, yeah, I don't I don't see a whole lot changing in five years, but I will say in five years, all kids will be in school. So that that was the first thing that popped in your head. Oh yeah, all kids will be in school.

SPEAKER_02 59:35

That's gonna feel like a pay raise when you don't have because you guys pay for daycare. Yeah, that's gonna feel like a pay raise when you're out of that one.

SPEAKER_00 59:41

Absolutely. Yeah, well I think so. We've we just finished up for with two. I think this is balanced last month of daycare. Okay, so we'll be down to one. Yeah, we got you know five more years of that, but uh yeah, that like you said, it'll be like a pay raise. It'll be a it'll be a legit pay raise when all kids are in school. But like you take all that money that you're saving, yeah, and now True's 15 always. Yeah, you're right. You you might just be you might just be throwing it back into sports or something, travel wash or whatever. Yep, because yeah, between uh the the travel teams, sports teams, whatever, and his food intake.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

So you just is he a bottomless pit?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:18

Not really, not yet. I think he's gonna be the skinny kid that you like. Where does it go? Yeah. Like I see eating all this, I see eating all this food, but where where does it go? I he's not there yet, but I think that's how he's gonna I think that's how he'll pan out. And I think Valen is gonna be the same way. So yeah, we'll we'll cut some corners, save some money on the back side of like no more daycare, no more diapers.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

But it'll be out the other window.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

But the pantry is where it's gonna hurt. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:45

Um, okay, man. Well, then what's something right now that you're like, man, I'm really looking forward to uh to this? Something maybe in the summer, something at a career level, something with you and Katie, something like this. Or something that you're like, man, I'm really looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:57

Uh long-sighted, I'm really looking forward to being able to spend time with Katie uh with adult or like self-sufficient kids. When we I met her, it was a it was a wild situation where um I wasn't with Mia's mom when Mia was born. Right. And so Katie and I met pretty early on, and it was like it's crazy. A lot of people like you know, run the numbers and are drawing the lines and was like, so how does that math out? But the reality is I if if Katie and I didn't meet when we did, it probably would have never happened. And if she would have chosen to run, who knows what would have happened, but she stuck with it. I told her what was going on, she stuck with me, and we made it through a lot of tough times, but we've always had a kid, so it was Mia for the first you know, four or five years, and then true comes along, and then it's true, and then four or five years later is Val, and then four years old. You spaced them out.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:03

We've yeah, you spaced them out.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:04

Yeah, we've always we've always had uh you know young kids, so we've never had that time for just me and her. And so like long term, I can't wait to be able to get to where it's just me and her, and the kids are self-sufficient, even if it's uh true's in college, Val's in high school, Raj is about to be or whatever, and we can go and vacate here or there, but um whatever that might look like, I can't wait to be able to like we don't have to care care for little kids anymore that we can actually focus on on us.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:33

Um well bro, let's try to see how we can like make that shit happen now, bro. Like, I'm not we still do okay, because I'm a big proponent of I'm a big I never like things that are like well, one day. I'm not a fan of one day, I've never been a big one day guy. So I'm Sunday might not come. What's right? So I'm kind of like, okay, how how can we orchestrate this where like I could show up, we could figure some kind of thing out, whatever. Because I'm like, especially once it comes to the summertime, yeah, where it's like, dude, I'm gonna have my kid with me for five days. You stack through my kids, I take my sister's three kids, so it's like you give me three or four more kids, bro. I'm sad, dog, we'll figure it out. Like, yeah, because I'm like, but my thing is like, especially if it gets you guys a break or gives you some kind of other experience, even if it's not all the time, like my sister and Aziz, like they need to go do stuff because I'm like, yeah, you have three young kids, they're spaced out kind of far. So I'm like, you're not gonna do anything ever if we don't help you, like it's not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

So yeah, man, just don't don't hesitate to even then it's like that's more like a break, right? It's not really a lifestyle. I know it's not, yeah. So like I'm I'm excited for the lifestyle. I got you, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, I'm I'm excited for that. For the day to day, for the uh uh you see you seen uh Friday after next where it was like, yeah, you you you want to rentro cook your mommy, me and your mom's gonna be at the house, and I'm but but that's but that's what I'm I'm looking forward to.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:53

That that lifestyle, like we're gonna get so yeah. Okay. What's one thing right now that you're like you're unsure about, anxious about, waiting to see what'll pan out? Something that's kind of lingering in your mind that you're like kind of in your head doesn't have to be negative or positive, just something you're kind of like uh we're we're this is on my in my attention, it's in my sphere of uh thought.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:12

Probably sports. Um sports is a huge part of my life. Uh-huh. Sports literally got me where I am today. Um without the it's not a direct line of like I played here and this is where I'm at now, but without playing sports, there's a lot of dots that wouldn't have connected in my life. And I'm sure I would have been able to draw other lines and make other connections, but sports was such a big part of my life and who I become. And so looking ahead at, you know, what does that mean for for my kids? And so trying not to project too much of that onto them and and the weight of that onto them so that they don't carry that and how they navigate through life. But also I understand like the positive impact that it could have with them if they use it, you know, use it in the right way. Sure. And so um, all that stuff, like from injuries, like your health in sports, uh, grades, your attitude, what kind of teammate. So making sure that I do the best that I can to help guide every single, you know, all of the kids along the right route to help put them in the best position, have success in that in that area, because they all love it. It's not something that I had to spoon feed to them. Like, I've never forced, I have forced True to play basketball. He told me, he said, Dad, I'm I'm a football player. I said, son.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

Oh, you haven't even tried.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:33

Yeah, I said you just try all your buddies are playing. But outside of that, I've never forced any of them to play any sport. Yep. Um, you know, we'll we'll give it a shot and see if you like it. And and they all and they all love it. Um, so without trying to force too much of that on them, but at the same time trying to lay out a blueprint is like the dance where it's like, okay, I don't want to, I don't want to make you do this, but if I know if I know this works, how can I shine the spotlight on it so that you can see that this is. Gonna work for you. Totally. Um, so that that's probably like my biggest uh and if if all of them were like I'm done with sports today, you know, we'll figure out something else. Yeah. Uh that that would uh suck for in the aspect that that's a lot of our bonding is done through sports, like we bond on other things too, but I've lived that been through that. So like that's a shared experience that like I'm closely connected to that I know how to like I know what that feels like when you score your touchdown or when you shake somebody or when it doesn't go well and you miss it, you know, whatever. But um, so if they decided they didn't, you know, go that route, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:39

He might end up being like your little Picasso.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:41

I I'm all in for it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

It's incredible what you can do.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:44

Way way more money and better health.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:46

So uh yeah, I mean I do think also, too, like the good thing that you guys do, like you said, is just exposing them, yeah, encouraging them, letting them do the things they love, and also like being like, hey man, you it's easy to say no when you've never done it. When you're little, you still don't always know even what you like. That's a lot different than forcing a kid. I've seen you we know that kid on the team that's like, bro, you shouldn't be out here. Get me out of here, dog. Like, just get me out of here. Um, okay, and then what's one thing right now that's like uh tricky? What's something that's kind of hard?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:16

Um, one thing that's tricky, I think the trickiest thing that I'm dealing with now is probably how to um I've kind of like adopted a new, I don't know, whatever you want to call it, but like I have to tell myself throughout the day, like, don't get mad, don't get mad, like somebody cut you off in traffic, or somebody does stuff, something stupid in the grocery store, or just it's it's super easy to get frustrated with all of these outside influences and like spike just go from zero to ten and like crash out or whatever, but like so don't don't get mad, and like you don't you wouldn't see me as being like an animated, like you'll you'll never know when I'm like fuming. Like I might say something like oh he's really upset, but like I won't project, like you won't see that in my actions. And so yeah, throughout the day, there's times like okay, don't get mad, like oh, I don't worry about that. And so one of the things that's tricky about that is like there's so many things that I look at left, right, you know, straight ahead behind me, whatever, um, where it'd be easy to get mad, and so trying not to let what's going on over there distract me or take away from the the joy or positivity that I'm feeling from something else. That's been a really tough dance because that's something that's easy to bring home. Uh especially, I mean, to keep it blunt, there's probably a lot of people that we go see at work that would not view us in the same light if they saw us in street clothes dressed like this, yeah. And so not having that thought of like I know what you probably think of me if like if I wasn't wearing this uniform or if you know whatever, but uh not having that affect how I treat other people and like giving them the benefit of the doubt at least, or not carrying that with me, kind of looking for that opportunity to call it out, because that's another easy one. Um, you know, I know you're watching me in the store. Like I could I could confront you about it because I'm I know and I'm looking forward to challenging you on that. Uh but like still good shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:17

I love the smoke. Yeah, but that's like I can't.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:19

But so that that's like that's been the trickiest thing for me recently, is like, okay, just stay focused on the task at hand, uh, the things that matter. Uh, you know, don't let anybody disrupt disrupt your joy, uh, you know, protect the family, don't get mad. Um, but that's been the trickiest, uh, and the trickiest thing to have to deal with, especially as of lately, because there's so many reasons where I could fly off the whim and get upset about X, Y, and Z and you know, carrying a lot, being able to uh let out a little bit of steam on this situation might not be called for, but we opened the door for it. So you might just get everything that's been built up. Um so that's that's been the trickiest thing that I've you know had to deal with kind of in a in a general sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:05

Okay. Yeah, man, I'm I one, I resonate for sure with you know all those at some level, but like the last one for sure, the don't get angry thing. I think for me that's a it's not a lovely season for not getting angry, I think. And I think for me it's a big reminder to just be like, I try to tell myself, like, you know, some of those fights you can't you can't win alone. So I try to stay in in for me at least, I just try to stay in the realm of like stay in the lane of the things you can meaningfully impact and try to let the things that are not within your actual genuine control not take up too much space. And so one of the things I've just been trying to do, because I've just I can resonate with that. Like I'll read some in the newspaper, I'll watch them on the new, you know, I'll always reading, which is a gift and a fucking curse. And then I'm like, oh, that okay, that's crazy. I can't believe that happened. And then like, you know, the repealing of the Civil Rights Act and the fucking voting rights act, and like I'm just like holy shit, dude. You know what I mean? Like it just and it's so easy to walk around angry in a way that like, yeah, none of our white counterparts are gonna care about that kind of thing, or like even stuff that happens in the way like things that happen to my nieces and nephews. Like, there's so many things all the time, it's so easy to be pissed off all the time, and then that's the whole thing is like I already know I'm like, oh, but if I'm angry, bro, I'm inside that fucking stereotype, and now I'm immediately gonna get different treatment, and it's like there's just also too. If I'm super if I'm being blunt, I'd be real and say, it's there's never a good time for a person of color to be angry. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like I could point to someone in public and be like, yeah, when that when that blackie got angry, everyone really had the space to to hear that and process that, but I must turn on the news once a week to hear a rant from a fucking uh news figure, uh Tucker Carlson, uh sports coach, a whatever, you know what I mean? That's like it's just such an interesting thing. So, and then also too, like our job does, bro. Like it it for sure does add compounding stress, yeah. And I don't think I felt it initially, but the older I'm getting, yeah, the more I'm realizing like it does, it is like they say there is like second you get the job, there's like a sink running. And initially, you have such a fucking big bucket that you're like, I'm good, bro. Even on the bad calls of it, they fuck you up, but you're just like, whatever. And then it's true that over time, like be hanging out with Huck and yada yada, and I just know I'm like, you're underslept, it was a super stressful shift. You were just busy, didn't feel like you could get anything done. Then you carry that stress of how little you maybe got done in that way, and then they're cuts you off in traffic, and then you find out they got me in that bullshit school light. Their school wasn't even session, it wasn't blinking.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:50

You owe me 125. Like, shut the fuck up.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:52

Next thing you know, Hug's like Hugs got something. I'm like, buddy, I told you this seven times, and now you're like, I now I'm not my best self. Yep, like it's tough to off-gas enough, and at the same time, like I think you and I both have that commonality where like, man, our family and our kids are the most important thing in our life. And so when we don't bring our best selves to it, it weighs heavy. Yeah, you're just like that. They they all they're the ones that get the A's. If anyone should get the A's, and like the best I have, they should be the ones getting you know, my A's. And and I'm not trying to say we should be showing up to work, not delivering the best we could, but I'm saying like somewhere's gotta bleed, and it's really tough to walk back into your life and not and have that sensation of like I hate those days. Like when I have to drop Huck off, and I'm like, oh dude, I feel like was not the best dad. Like that is just like angering. I'm like, I wish I could get time back, I wish I could run it back.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:45

So which sucks too because they're old enough now to like to understand and pick up on it's one thing when they're two, three, four years old and they just but like I'll say something in traffic and I'll be like, like, dude, what are you doing? And both their heads pop like with the car in front of me, like, why are you mad, Dad? Like, uh everybody's not a good driver. Uh so trying to like reel it back in because because they're aware and they know what's going on now, like I really got it even more um.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:12

You're so much better about that, bro. You're so much more even killed than me. I need to work on that. I'm in the car snapping, bro, crashing out for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:19

I tell you, I I remember the moment that it it clicked in my head. There was I was driving with Mia, she was in the backseat, and I don't I might have been in Spokane, but there was this lady. Um, she was probably you know drugged out, down on her, whatever. But she was basically gonna walk out into the street in front of the car without waiting to see if I was gonna stop. Not like trying to hurt herself, but like they'll stop.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:43

Yeah, just assume.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:44

And I'm like, And no right in in my mind, I'm like, lady, you are you're gonna get killed doing that. And I said it out loud, and Mia's like, what she's gonna get killed, and I'm like, she was probably like four or five at the time, maybe six. And I was like, damn, like I gotta explain one like why I said that. She she has no idea, she's old enough to like understand what these words mean, but uh, and I was like, oh, she's back there listening. Like, I really gotta be mindful of like what I say in traffic, um, what I do, because I still remember, like I remember being in the backseat of my mom's car or my dad's car, and we're headed, we're late to to practice. And I remember looking over at the speedometer, like, I know what the speed limit sign says, and I can see what the speedometer says. And I'm like, oh, okay, like I'm never worried about it. But then in my mind, when I get to 16, 17 years old, and oh, mom and dad, they were cruising to practice at you know, whatever miles per hour, like it's okay to go ahead, you know, go above it, da-da-da. And so, like, always being mindful that I'm setting that example because I don't want to set the wrong example, yeah. I don't want to set the wrong example. You're good about that, my man.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:54

It's uh yeah, no, so I grew up with a dad, I grew up with a dad and mom who were just annihilate in the car, the person that crossed, you know, and I got it so bad that some I'm driving down the street one time and like this guy cuts me off, whatever, and I just put my hand and I go like that.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:10

And Huck goes, What was that? And I go, You ever seen the X-Men? He goes, Yeah, no, sometimes I wish I was just Magneto could be like bye.

SPEAKER_03 1:16:17

He's like, I think I'm teaching the wrong lesson. I gotta, I gotta cool it.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:22

But like that, that is such a good thing to do for them, man. And that's that's awesome that you have that awareness. I think for me, it's so tough because I'm like, bro, sometimes that is emotional regulation, is also just I didn't come from the most emotionally regulated background. Like, I met your pop only the little bit I did in your mom, and I'm like, these people are far more even than either of my parents, bro. Like, yeah, yeah, that's where all the words come from, too. It's just have big talkers, big energy, big like so um, but nah man, that's that's really great. I'm glad to hear that. Like, you're keeping an eye on that. I need to, it's a great reminder for me. Like, I just gotta be aware of that.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:56

But bro, part part of it, I I wouldn't be surprised if I got a little splash of C D. And if I if if I do fly off the handle, I don't know if I can reel it back in. Yeah. So like really just staying like that's that's my demeanor for one. I don't want, I don't wish anybody, you know, unwell or like so. Like if I can keep it composed, I never have to worry about what that looks like. Totally so and then people are crazy nowadays. Oh, yeah. So if if I match your energy or go, if I instigate something to get. I definitely don't instigate. Yeah, so like if uh if anything like that. But I love showing up after it's already started. But yeah, so I just I just try and keep it, keep it calm and chill and yeah, whatever, and just don't get mad.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:42

Yeah, but at the same time, man, like the way you carry yourself, that is the part that's unimpeachable. Always always work so hard, always so capable, always so kind, and just like truly just a homie to so many mana. So I appreciate you coming on, man. Yeah, man. I appreciate you sharing, and like I hopefully, I hope to have you all back. Like I'm planning to just do a fuck around session with just like you and Waldo and like that'll be a good have Tobe come out. See we can slum gun up there. Yeah, bro, Gun would love to fucking come out and just like to crack up, I'm sure. But like that's the whole point, like long term. But I just think it's it's just these are the it's so fun to talk to the cast of characters in my life who like add meaning to my days and help me stay on track and are places that I can turn to and people that I learn from. And so so much of what I see, and you know, like you said, I know you you're doing that in so many ways for your boys, thinking about how you're carrying yourself. But just remember, like, you know, there's grown men, you know, that are around you all the time, me, my myself included, that are watching you going, like, oh shit, I probably should do that, or like that. That sounds like a good fucking idea. That was a good plan. I why wouldn't I doing that? So I think in some ways, not that you're thinking that, but like just know, like, man, like the way you carry yourself, it's a powerful thing and it leaks out far beyond just your own immediate family to people that you might even consider peers, you know what I mean? So it's an awesome thing, bro. But outside of that, bro, I just appreciate you coming on, being vulnerable, telling telling people what's up and sharing all the things you did.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:02

Yeah, man, thanks for having me. I always enjoy, you know, kicking it, trapping it up. Um, give me a space to be able to just share. Cause like I said, this isn't this isn't my thing. Like, yeah, I have no problem sharing. Yeah, public speaking is no fear, spoken in front of you know thousands, can't with cameras, whatever. But uh at the same time, it's gotta like for me, it just has to be pulled out. Like it's not something that I'm volunteering to do. So I appreciate you inviting me. 100%, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:26

And you're and I will say, man, you're you're obviously incredibly articulate and smart, but like I think you also are, and not that you wouldn't think you're sharp, but like you really do have like a really high-level communication skill set. You know what I mean? Like the things you say are very clear and they're very like digestible. Like, I always know what the hell you're talking about, and it always makes sense. I'm overly wordy, and I speak in a really I could talk really in a big wide circle before we get back to the point. And I think you just have a good efficiency with what you talk about. But, anyways, man, yeah, dude, look forward to the next one.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:58

Yeah, man. Cool.