Beyond Screen Time: What Parents Are Really Afraid of in the AI Era with Dr. Viola Liu

What happens when researchers, parents, and entrepreneurs ask a deeper question about technology and education?

In this conversation, Aldo sits down with Dr. Viola Liu — learning science researcher, Harvard graduate, and AI-in-education expert — to reflect on our experience at MIT’s Entrepreneurship Development Program and the unexpected journey that led to the creation of Norie. 

Together, we explore:

• Why AI is changing far more than content delivery
• The growing tension parents feel around screens and digital childhood
• The importance of critical thinking and metacognition in the AI era
• How primary market research reshaped our assumptions
• Why the real challenge is not screen time — but understanding what children absorb
• The role of AI as a thinking partner, not just a tool
• What entrepreneurship can teach researchers — and vice versa

This episode is ultimately about one question:

How do we preserve humanity, curiosity, and wisdom in a world increasingly shaped by intelligent machines?

A thoughtful conversation on education, parenting, AI, and building technology with intention.

Learn more about Norie: https://getnorie.com/

Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AlphaWireHQ

This episode was brought together by AlphaWire: https://alphawire.xyz/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

We're quite far in our journey when we realized we should develop a product that tackles the anxiety of parents not knowing what their kids are looking to. We shouldn't facilitate something that blocks the screen time because the solution for that problem is already known. But there there is still the problem of parents being anxious, and parents like you, you and me, like that if we give our kid that screen time, that we do not know what they are actually looking at, what they are absorbing. Welcome to Pulse by AlphaWire, the podcast where science and education meet cutting-edge technology and artificial intelligence. My name is Alder the Pop, and each week I sit down with innovators, thinkers, and doers who are working to change our world for the better. Together we explore their journeys, uncover the lessons they learned, and take an entrepreneurial pulse that drives them on their path to success. In this Pulse episode, I speak with Dr. Viola Liu, educator, researcher, and edtech entrepreneur about the evolving role of AI in children's learning and well-being. Drawing on her work at Harvard University and as a research assistant professor at East China Normal University, Dr. Liu shares insights into deeper learning, the growing challenge of tech addiction, and how AI can be used more thoughtfully to support children's development. We also explore her latest venture, Nori Knows, a platform designed to help parents navigate the complexities of the digital world, making more confident decisions about screen time and technology use, fostering healthier digital habits for their children. Sincerely hope you'll enjoy my conversation with Dr. Viola Liu. Yes, and it's a wonderful Tuesday evening here in the UK. Afternoon in Boston. And I have the great honor to sit here with Dr. Viola Liu. Hello, Dr. Liu. How are you today?

SPEAKER_02 2:16

Hi, nice to meet you again, virtually. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yes, and you say again because we of course know each other. Uh we met in January of this year in Boston as we both were students at the MIT Entrepreneurship Development Program for a week. And we've had a great run. It was a week of loads of adventure and loads of things, and that's exactly what we're going to be talking about in this specific episode.

SPEAKER_02 2:48

Yes, it was um quite a venture.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Definitely. And let's start there, Viola. Because you live and work in Boston. What made you register to the MIT Entrepreneurship Development Program?

SPEAKER_02 3:01

Basically, I'm a learning science researcher at um Shanghai University, China Normal University. And my work is on how AI can support the deeper learning and student development. And I came to the MIT EDP this year, the team, and I was thinking about that. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

Yeah, and so because you are very focused on education technology. Right. You did a lot of work in Shanghai already, and you even have a master's in education from Harvard University, right?

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Yes. Yes. I have been like doing the research and all those, like a special doctoral program, like yeah, in HACSI. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

You look a lot into education technology and then specifically its impact. And that's what you do research on.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Yes, my research from like theoretical background, like the foundations and to um the evaluation and massive assessment, and also the framework relates to the educational technology before AI. And after AI transformed our, you know, the whole world of our learning and teaching, and this became more AI focused in the education field.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

Yeah. So you would say AI was a big game changer in your analysis as well.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

Right. Because right now using the AI, we can do more multimodal evaluation models and more scaffolding for the learners on development with more personalized yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

And so would you consider yourself more of an entrepreneur or more of a researcher?

SPEAKER_02 4:51

I'm a more practical researcher because I would like to implement my research outcome and my framework into the real practice. And also I can see myself as an entrepreneur because I think the new idea or the idea that we think will benefit more people eventually will be the outcome or the effectiveness of the research.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

So at the end of the day, it's about, if I understand you correctly, it's about the impact and what the technology actually does and what and whether AI is an accelerator of measuring that, yes or no. That's secondary, but you're interested in the results and the impact that specific technologies can have in education specifically, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:39

Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Yeah. So we met and and uh I think this is might be nice for the listener to hear. So we also became part of the same group because the entire week is actually kind of a development whereby each group, and we were nine groups in total, divided over I think around 70 people. Um and each group they actually come together because they all kind of support the same business idea. So you know, in the beginning of the week, very scarily everyone needs to pitch. And if you like the pitch of the person, then you can you can see if you can form a group. And so we both pitched and we actually came together because we had somewhat of a similar idea. And right, you know, the idea that we had was coming both from I think our concern as parents, I think, first and foremost, but then in in the case of the both of us, also as because we both have a past as as et tech founders, right? So it was a little bit of a combination of the two.

SPEAKER_02 6:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

But our main concern was this problem of technology addiction, and more specifically for how the next generation would be able to cope when they're living in a world whereby devices and screens are so dominant. So will they be able to kind of uh navigate uh through all of that? And will they be able to decide which content is good for them, yes or no? And how do you deal with that as a parent? Before we get into that, was that also your original idea? What was your original idea that you pitched? Do you do you remember?

SPEAKER_02 7:20

My original idea was also like relate to the problem that when the AI and technology arise in our society right now, for both parents and students, and um, should we very scared, and even teachers, right? Should we be scared of AI or should we embrace AI?

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

How we do it, right? How we um think about this kind of technology. Because as a parent, for sure, we can't avoid our kids stop using those devices. So yeah, that was my original idea to help parents and to help the kids to think differently and how we keep our humanities and critical thinking in this kind of changing a period. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah. And was that what did that idea come to you as a as a researcher or more as a mother?

SPEAKER_02 8:11

I think the journey to be a mom is also a kind of practical way to verify and testify your research outcomes or your idea or yes, or your opinions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Yeah. But before we get into the the mom part and the parent part, which I know is very relevant, let's first go into the kind of the academic part. Because I'd be curious to, as you have such tremendous experience also at Shanghai University, as well as your work on and with uh Harvard, um what had you found kind of before we went into this? Had you found any kind of uh relevant things that you you you said, okay, this might be good to build upon, or were you more of a blank page at that moment, you know, when we started this?

SPEAKER_02 8:59

Due to all the report and all the research, we can see that most of the ad tech and most of the technology as a tool was trying to make the knowledge deliver faster, smarter, right? But actually, I know AI is changing the way of our uh the thinking, the schooling, and why we have the education. We have education to try and nurture a student or a kid to well develop their cognitive um development rather than just acquire their knowledge or um, you know, um as a bank. We deposit the knowledge into them. Before was that the case, but right now we know that we can acquire the knowledge wherever we are, and you know, we can have different kinds of tools, platforms. And that is also, I think, back to what our idea originally is how we choose, why we choose this, right? Like it's something like make is overwhelmed for both parents and educators and also the kids.

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah. So you're saying like what you had found in your research was AI can be used more for cognitive development rather than content delivery, because it it can all cough up the you know the facts. Uh, but it doesn't necessarily say anything about how our brain, how we can build up our brain and how we can we can produce knowledge ourselves and retain knowledge ourselves. And that is something that you were most interested in.

SPEAKER_02 10:35

Yeah, for the for the critical thinking and higher order thinking and executive functions will keep the humanity in our students and our kids. And no matter how the world changes in the future, they can adapt to the word and the changes with no problem.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

With, you know, with all the tools to deliver the knowledge, the contents, and they can figure out or having the critical thinking to make the good choice. This is more critical part that we should deal with in the education.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Yeah. Had you already looked into what Shanghai University, like had you looked into any of this already professionally?

SPEAKER_02 11:15

Yes, we have a framework and we have the deeper learning principles that apply to our um intelligent learning system. Also, from the AI agent, we created multiple AI agents that we can help students for their metacognitive scaffolding, that we can uh have a large effect, that we can see that the students will have the AI as a thinking partner, not a tool, to help them to build up their metacognitive thinking skills and thinking levels, and also to help them to doing all the calibration levels to help them uh to solve their uh problems during the different feedbacks from their learning process. And also about the multimodal um evaluation model and also how we assess metacognition via um the personalized learning process.

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Wow. So that's uh that's loads that you had already looked at.

SPEAKER_02 12:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 12:16

I wasn't aware that you were already so deep in that. That's amazing. And so this is affiliated with your work at Shanghai University, am I correct?

SPEAKER_02 12:23

Right, right. And it's it's a China Normal University.

SPEAKER_01 12:26

China Normal University, yes. Okay, wow. So that that's already a lot that you had looked into. Well, anyway, um, we need to tell the story to the listener, of course, of what happened when we were at MIT because we kind of became this hybrid of a parent as well as an ed tech founder, as well as a researcher. And then we came to the conclusion, like, okay, how would parents, how are parents going to deal with the technology addiction of their children? And and and what are they exactly panicky about, right? And in our journey, I think it was funny because in the beginning we were also all about prevention as well as trying to keep kids away from screens as much as possible. So we were all around, you know, thinking about how can we block, how can we provide family time so that you know there's more time for you know relationship building without a screen. Of course, all very valid, right? Nothing wrong with that. But when we looked deeper and when we interviewed loads of people, which, you know, one of the things that I was so surprised by was how MIT doubled down on what they call primary market research, we kind of discovered that the main concern of parents isn't necessarily that they don't know how to take a screen away from a kid. Their anxiety is more around the fact that if they have granted their child screen time, that they do not know what their child is looking at, right? And that for me at least, I don't know about you, Viola, but that was for me, it was like a aha moment. Like, oh my goodness, I didn't realize that that was actually the pain point, the anxiety that parents have not knowing what their children are absorbing.

SPEAKER_02 14:19

Yes, I think that's uh resonated in me a lot because you know, as a researcher, we always have a hypothesis. And actually, it turns out the whole journey or adventure we have been through was tested from our persona and our PMR, the primary market research. That turns out that evidence didn't support our initial hypothesis from the parent controlling, not to put the screen away, but the control about like we are trying to help parents fully control about what they can give to their children.

SPEAKER_00 14:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:55

Yes, that is like what we are teaching the our kids how to utilize this kind of devices and contents. Yeah, that is also, I think, a part of like critical thinking and all those stuff. Yeah, making the best choice.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

And it was so funny because actually we only discovered that that was where we should be at you know, day four or something. We were quite far in our journey when we realized we should develop a product that tackles the anxiety of parents not knowing what their kids are looking to. We shouldn't facilitate something that blocks the screen time because the solution for that problem is already known. But there is still the problem of parents being anxious, and parents like you and me, like that if we give our kid that screen time, that we do not know what they are actually looking at, what they are absorbing, and that that we just hope for the best. And that specifically, parents, I think with multiple kids, um they because they need to sometimes make sure one child is occupied so they can attend to the other, that they have that issue because they are slightly more keen to embrace a screen as a solution, but they're torn at the same time, right? Because they don't necessarily know, like, okay, what is the effect here on my child if if I would allow them for this half an hour screen time.

SPEAKER_02 16:19

Right. And also I think when you mention about the anxiety, it's because they don't know much. They don't know enough to let them to um keep a peace of mind that, okay, my my kids are safe with this content or they're okay to play this game. Once they they don't know about all those stuff, we will have anxiety, we will be afraid of the outcomes we'll bring to our children. But after we have enough support for parents to get them fully controlled with their kids assess, and then I think the problem will be gone.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah. And so this is where we landed on okay, what takes away the anxiety? And this was funnily enough, again, something that we think we didn't think we would embrace, but we did, which is actually AI, right? So what AI does is it it has this infinite capacity to kind of clarify what type of content is available, and it can help also to understand the person who is actually ingesting the content, right? So this is where we where we thought, hey, AI could be a good assistant here in helping parents to make sure that the content that is selected for their child on their screen is appropriate and has all the pedagogical nutrients that they want it to have, so that they can, with a sound heart and mind, give the screen to a child for a certain number of minutes or you know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 18:03

Yeah, this also resonated with me too, because through a learning science lens, and we can see that um NORI is a decision support system that we can treat parents as a learner, right? And we are giving uh the macro decisions, and then we can, you know, the the parents will all always have, you know, under the uh conflicts of information and you know, have all those stuff like when their kids are in the digital life. And this is exactly also give parents a lot of cognitive load condition, right? And we're I think the math cognition will help them out to make the better decision for their children.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

Yeah, definitely, definitely. So you've already given it away. It was called Nori. So we there's a website which is nori knows.com. So you can take a look at that. And Nori is a little quoka, and I know we laughed hard and we were all in love with the little quoka. So Nori is a little quoca, and Nori is actually the assistant that helps parents and children on their way in making sure that parents can make confident digital decisions for their children when it comes to selecting content, right? And it's yes, it it is it is this filter whereby AI helps you, but not only AI, also other parents can help you with their advice, telling you whether the content that they are looking for is indeed appropriate and whether they should indeed go ahead with a certain game or app or or video or whatever it is. Uh and so before clicking on it, you get all this advice that tells you, okay, this is this looks like good content or not. So it's kind of a layer built on top, or before you see the content that advises you on whether to go ahead, yes or no. And that is all that Nori is and does.

SPEAKER_02 19:57

Right. When you mentioned about like um before our pinpoint, our assumption of the pinpoint was only about control. It's not like we want actually parents will work with the children, right? After that, and we want um parents and children to have less conflicts because of the springtime. The simple control will make the parents and the kids against to each other. We'll make more conflicts or unhappy moments, but we want the development from like positive development, both for parents and children. Yeah, that is what we have the iterations during the whole process. Yes, like we were a little bit behind with the other team, but I was very glad that we made the first one, the winner for our competition. Yeah. I was surprised.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Yes, that's indeed what happened because we always felt throughout the week we felt like the underdog because we were looking into a solution for parents, and it wasn't necessarily we had no profit idea in mind. Uh and we were up against companies that had solutions in fintech or in oil or in kind of you know, big CEO uh decision-making tools and you know, all the heavyweight solutions, so to say, and here we were this little group of people who were who liked education, who were concerned parents that said, hey, we need to come up with a solution. So we very much felt like the underdog, and lo and behold, because it had all happened in two rounds, so in round one, we were with two other companies, and that went very well for us. So we were the winner of the first round, and then there was another round, again, three companies, and then it was announced that we won. Yeah, we couldn't believe it, but that's of course that was the cherry on the on on the cake, I guess. After a long week of hard work. That we we not only were very happy with our idea, but also the the jury was very happy, and that's of course great, and that's very encouraging, um and it's very nice. It's of course a very good first endorsement for us to have, even though there's plenty of work to be done. And you've been working hard because I know you've been going around having loads of conversations as a mother, but also as a researcher. Can you tell me what people see when you talk about Nori in in Boston and surroundings?

SPEAKER_02 22:20

Yeah, and actually after this program, I have been taking multiple courses in MIT also. And every time when we mentioned about the experience in MIT, I was talking about this project. And every, I can tell, it's not exaggerate. Every single parent, if they're a parent, they have children. When they think about this, when they heard about that, they will always say, wow, when when it will be available, I want to try. I want to use that. That's what I have the biggest to takeaway from this program. It's like, because you're listening to your customers, you're listening to the users, and what the really pinpoint from their experience. And as us, as a parent, right, we have this kind of like pinpoint. But sometimes we can't talk this very clearly when we're doing a simple survey or interview. But when we're gathering all the data, all the surveys, all the results that we came up with from our research, that we can tell that this is the really um thing that parents are looking for. Yes. And that's why even you know, my friends around Boston and all the, you know, even from Shanghai, you know, it's a global, global issues.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:38

You know, all the parents like globally have the same, same kind of like issues and all those problems that they want to control, but they also want to maintain a very healthy and happy relationship with their children. Then how we tackle this, right? Yes, and they they need support. I think parent support is very important along the journey of the parenthood. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

Loads of support from parents. And parents asking, like, when can I use it? How can you do it? and whatever. As okay, we have the website live, but there's loads more work to be done, of course. But I think we also decided that we would continue the journey, right? So from the idea that was born there, you know, you and I and and and others also decided, like, well, let's continue this path because this is a solution that really deserves to be born. There's a big problem here, and we should address it. So we're not gonna give up. We are busy as parents, as researchers, as venture builders, as uh educators, like other people in our team, but we're not gonna shy away from a bit of work in getting Nori into this world. And this interview is also a way of telling the world we're out there, right? That's that's also why why we are doing this. That's really great. I want to go back to the MIT experience for you. So you said PMR is very important for you. Did it make you more entrepreneurial?

SPEAKER_02 25:07

Yeah, um, actually, I think based on all the discipline, the entrepreneurship, the steps, and all the stuff, the process that we have learned. Um, before I was doing everything, like my startups as instinct. But right now I can tell that, oh, I will follow the 24 steps. I will do the PMR first, I will know my persona, and that will make me still the same thing, while controlled about your startups, the process, right? Like everything. We want the things under our control, and we can predict what will happen and what we will get from um, you know, your your field and also from your product, your service. Yeah, that is really, really nice and really striking me about your hypothesis will always maybe not always task correct, right? You need iteration, you need to listen to your PMR, listen to your customers.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Yeah. Definitely. And I I just dug out because I I found this book that I have here. The book is called Disciplined Entrepreneurship: The Proven and Systematic Way to Build a New Venture. And that is the book that we worked our way through at MIT describing these 24 uh steps. And Bill Orlet was our professor, which was an amazing guy, a very funny, I think, you know, very peculiar guy. Uh very inspiring, I think, in in how he conveyed these 24 steps. And yeah, we learned a lot, you know, from him in theory, but then there was also after the theory, there was the practice. In all, it was a wonderful experience that I am sure that I'm, you know, I still am enjoying, right? Because of being there in Boston and doing all those things was really.

SPEAKER_02 26:52

Yeah, even though the program is like fully packed with morning and afternoon lectures, and we will have different guest speakers and the main lectures from Bill, and also we'll have the whole teamwork. And I still a little bit nervous by um the mentors, like the rotation for the mentors. They gave us the different feedbacks and we changed our pitch like quickly, quickly, like 10 minutes, 3 15 minutes. Yeah, it was very intense. But after all those um training, I feel like we are more um bored to carrying on the different new ideas, and we can try our mistakes and to turn it to calibrate in from the previous hypothesis to the right one. Yeah, it's it's quite a journey. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

I think that's also my learning. Like if you know, if you don't get it right, just just keep on going. You should just kind of then reiterate and do it again, because the worst thing you can actually do is stop. Because then you're not gonna have anything. I love that quote, and I think I've said it a few times from this song of Bob Dylan, which also uh Bill Ollett referred to. Like if you're not a busy being born, he said, you're busy dying, right? And it meant like busy being born is like if you're not reinventing something, if you're not building, then you're not living. You're you're essentially dying, which I thought was that's a beautiful way of putting it. It's like, you know, just keep on going and a solution or success or whatever it is you're looking for that will come.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Yes, I think it's all yeah, and also I think it should also resonate my on the cognitive disciplines that I have been, you know, spent the decades of uh years of study as a researcher. We are monitoring, collaboration, recalibration, and evidence-based strategy adjustment. It's all about turns out to be the same discipline that determines whether the funding team succeeds or the metacognition is um educational construct and it's how the work gets made.

SPEAKER_01 28:56

Yeah, you're a lot more rigorous. I hear the researcher in you like the where's the method and how do these things work? But it it suits you, and and I enjoy also having our meetings and talking about this, and I'm looking forward to giving more life to Nori. Um, Viola, I'm I'm conscious of your time. Before we we close this this this episode and we move on with more work for Nori, I want to ask you the two very last questions that I ask to all people on Pulse. One is around morning routines. I'm doing my own amateur research into morning routines.

unknown 29:30

Morning.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Do you have a morning routine? No worries if not. But if you do, would you care to share?

SPEAKER_02 29:37

Yes. You know what? I'm a mom of two. So the first thing is definitely will prepare the breakfast for my kids and drop them for the school bus. And after that, I will have my own writing blocks as a researcher because I have to read all the references and the new articles, and I will write something. It's 90 minutes at least, but I will make this as always my you know morning routines. I think I benefit from this. Like it makes you keep reading, keep doing the research, keep up all the habits. And yeah, it's nice. It's like kind of of my morning exercise, but for writing.

SPEAKER_01 30:16

Yeah. Your brain exercise. Well, well done. That's good. Well, that and that leads into my last question, which is around reading. So, in your journey and your career, uh, you know, having a PhD, being so developed as a as a researcher, but now also as an entrepreneur, in ethic, has there been any book that has inspired you on your path? So, for the other people who aspire to be like Dr. Viola Liu, what would you recommend them to read? And is there anything you could you would like to share here?

SPEAKER_02 30:48

Yeah, I would like to share a very classic book called Iducated. I don't know if you have heard about that.

SPEAKER_01 30:55

Yeah, I think I did. Is that it's from someone from uh Cambridge? Is it uh Westover?

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Yeah, I believe so, yes. So um I really like that book. I think yeah, that book brings you out like uh how you think about education itself. Like education is not only about schooling.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:18

It's about the whole development of a person the whole well-being.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Yeah. And I really like this book, yes. Um if you if you haven't read it, I recommend that.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Yeah. Yes. It's a beautiful recommendation. Yeah, I I I I very much enjoyed that book as well. And it's a very it's so otherworldly how she developed kind of into education, having had no education whatsoever herself, and then becoming such a top-tier professor at Cambridge or doctor at Cambridge, which is just amazing, right? So, yeah, that's a very good suggestion, and also very befitting for the conversation that we have as people who like education and who've who've worked many, many years into education. So, thank you for that. For people who want to know more, we can always go to norynose.com. And I'm sure that Dr. Vaiola Liu, we're gonna hear loads more about you, about your great work doing research in edtek, as well as your work in Nori. Thank you so much for your time.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Thank you so much for having me. Very glad to see you again.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

You've listened to Pulse by AlphaWire, produced by Natalie Piles and Amela Faisal. With great music, The Optimist, written by Holly Hamill, performed and produced by Alo. Episodes hosted weekly by me, Aldo DePop.