Pulse by AlphaWire
Welcome to Pulse by AlphaWire, the podcast where science and education meet cutting edge technology and artificial intelligence.
My name is Aldo de Pape and each week I sit down with innovators, thinkers and doers who are working to change our world for the better.
Together, we explore their journeys, uncover the lessons they've learned and take the entrepreneurial pulse that drives them on their path to success.
Pulse by AlphaWire
The Empty Chairs That Uncovered A Hidden History with Cees Koole
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In this episode of Pulse, Aldo sits down with Cees Koole, educator and creator of Empty Chairs in the Classroom, a project that explores how history can come alive in ways that profoundly impact both students and communities.
They discuss how a simple discovery in a school archive grew into a powerful initiative that reconnects young people with the lives of students who disappeared during the Second World War. Together, they explore why Holocaust education remains as important as ever, how local history shapes our understanding of citizenship, and what it means to move from being a bystander to someone who chooses to act.
This is a thought-provoking conversation about remembrance, education, and the responsibility we all share to preserve the stories of those who came before us.
Sincerely hope you will enjoy our interview with Cees Koole.
More about Cees' amazing project can be found (in Dutch) here: https://legestoelenindeklas.nl/
Watch this episode on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AlphaWireHQ
This episode was brought together by AlphaWire: https://alphawire.xyz/
The Amsterdam Lyceum, who had this director who was not cooperating with the Nazis. That guy, after the war, invited lots of Jewish pupils to come back. There were even former pupils who got the diploma from him for free. What was the guy's name? Gunning. Pete Gunning. I felt a certain responsibility that I'm not only teaching them about history, what happened, but also how are we keeping the democratic spirit? That really keeps me going on. I mean, you have a certain feeling of a mission.
SPEAKER_01Welcome to Pulse by AlphaWire, the podcast where science and education meet cutting-edge technology and artificial intelligence. My name is Aldo de Pop, and each week I sit down with innovators, thinkers, and doers who are working to change our world for the better. Together we explore their journeys, uncover the lessons they learned, and take the entrepreneurial pulse that drives them on their path to success. What happens when a forgotten school archive uncovers stories that were never meant to be lost? In this episode of Pulse, I sit down with Case Kohle, educator and creator of Empty Chairs in the Classroom, a project that explores how history can come alive in ways that profoundly impact both students as well as communities. We discuss how a simple discovery in a school archive grew into a powerful initiative that reconnects young people with the lives of students who disappeared during the Second World War. Together we explore why Holocaust education remains as important as ever, how local history shapes our understanding of citizenship and what it means to move from being a bystander to someone who chooses to act. This is a thought provoking conversation about remembrance, education, and the responsibility we all share to preserve the stories of those who came before us. Sincerely hope you will enjoy my interview with Kees Kohle. Yes, and we are live with another interview. This one is a very special one, and it leans into education and I think education in the most immersive sense of the word. I have with me here an old friend we studied together, Kees Kohle. A very warm welcome to you. Thanks, Eldo. Kees, we're both uh Dutch, I am Dutch Belgian, and we're very used to speaking Dutch to one another, so it's a little bit quirky and weird for us to speak English uh right now, but I think we should, because I really love the project that you have been working on over the past years, and you've done an amazing job. It's called Legstoele in the Klass, and freely translated that means empty chairs in the classroom.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01Before we go too quickly and before we lean into that project, you are a history teacher at a beautiful school in Amsterdam, the Spinoza Lyceum. What got you into history? Let's start there.
SPEAKER_00Well, actually, it started in Utrecht. First of all, I I wanted to become a vet, but that's a lottery in the Netherlands. And the first year I was uh not chosen, but and then I had to start with parking studies as we called it. And I started with pharmacy, and that was really not the right choice, to put it mildly. And then a few months later I started to uh to do history because I talked to a guy in the student discotheque. I still remember that that he said I'm studying uh history and I really like it, but still was really interested in history, and then I said give it a chance to cover this year, and then uh the next year I was chosen for uh being a vet, uh the vet study. And I decided to uh go on with uh history. And even at that moment I was just studying history, not knowing what to do with it later on. When I finished my study, I didn't choose for the history teacher uh immediately. But after several jobs, I was working at the photography museum Amsterdam, and they had an education part in a little part of the then growing museum. It's now very successful, but then it was really small, and yeah, that started me to think, wow, I like this education, but it was just a part of the job, and then I decided, well, let's go for it totally. And then you need in Holland um when you have studied history, you can directly go in front of the class, you need an extra master. So that's what I did, and and then uh yeah. The rest is history. The rest is history, I was thinking the same.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's a lovely story. I like I I studied history myself as well. Like say I didn't pursue anything in in teaching, or because I after that I went more into business studies and and kind of uh lean more into that. But I I do agree with you that it is it is a very interesting study and it offers you a lot in understanding the world that we live in.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01And so what kind of a teacher are you, Case?
SPEAKER_00Well, um we have six classes at least, and they start in the first class and they do their examination in in the last year.
SPEAKER_02Yes, there it goes.
SPEAKER_00So I can teach them all because you also have uh teachers that are only teaching lower classes. Let me be honest, in the first five years it was really, really tough because you need to be strict and you need to, you know, uh manage your class, and that's a lot of efforts, and you really discover that everything has action-reaction, you know. But after a while, I really uh started to love it. The best compliment I got from pupil is that they told me I can be as who I am in your classes, and because you are yourself. And I think that's the best lesson I learned. Once you have the self-confidence to be yourself, they are relaxed as well, and and you can start really building relationships with your pupils. That's of course something I believe that you can't teach that well if there's no relationship between you and your pupils. So in Dutch, it's geen prestaties on the relatie. I don't know if that's transferable to English, but they start working for you if they like you. And it's not being like uh friendly all the time. You you have to be strict sometimes. In the beginning, you can be retested a lot, and then you dare not say something about this to the pupils at at such a moment that you are so angry that everything comes out. That what that could happen in the beginning, and and that is not in proportion, of course. It's comparable, of course, with being a parent. You know, you have to be uh proportional, keep patience, and actually when I became a father, uh that was when I was 38, already teaching for eight years, but it was such an extra dimension that you look uh at those children like they're your children, you know? Yeah, yeah. Nice. And that's of course not the didactic we're not talking about didactics yet. This this just you know, the human being you bring along as a teacher. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I like what you say, it's about being yourself because I think I what I remember from being a teenager, I think the teachers who weren't themselves, the kids notice. Like, okay, this teacher feels uncomfortable. Let me see if I can push this a little further, right? You kind of that is the the testing maybe that's going on.
SPEAKER_00And if you just want to know um that's one of the best um phrases I I learned during study, but later on I really start to understand it, they don't care about how much you know. They want to know how much you care. That's for them is most important in in the start. But later on, if they're a bit older and they're getting to the end and they need to learn, and and they know they need to learn because they want to get their diploma, then of course they also really like you to explain the subject. Yeah. Yeah. And that's that's of course uh what you're actually there for.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. That's a good segue into history, but you like as you say, like the older students who need history for their exam versus maybe the students that have history as one of the courses, and maybe not see a future with with a course like history. Do you notice the difference? Are your students very committed to doing well in learning about history?
SPEAKER_00Well, the the most important thing uh for putting the efforts in in this subject is curiosity and motivation. And that's of course not always the case. Sometimes they just want to get over with it, you know, they're already satisfied with you know the the six mentality because we have trades from one till ten, and ten is the best and one is the worst, and they need to pass the the next year, they need uh to have a five point five. So sometimes they're just like, okay, I'm already satisfied with the six and don't tell me too much. I just want and for me it's it's fine. I I also know that that they uh do a lot more in in in their uh school courses. Some sometimes they excel in other subjects or even outside school, and it's okay. The school where I teach is a school with a lot of cultural activities next to the subjects like um art and theater. Yeah, there's a lot of um music in our school, so when you walk in a school in the morning, uh you always hear them make music on on the guitars or just pupils who practice for themselves. It's sometimes I really think I'm I'm teaching in a music school. It's it's really a nice atmosphere. That's just the profile of the school, but unfortunately, there's one thing I'm not so happy with uh in the system that um the fourth year they need to choose their profile, and that means they're going for more mathematics and and science, or they go more for human art directions or for economy. And all those smart kids who choose for science, they don't have uh history in the subjects anymore, and it's really a loss because most of the time those kids are very interested in history and very good at it. That's a bit uh a pity. They just can't, they just can't include it anymore. So um some schools do offer that in the fourth year, but most of the time those are gymnasiums that that's the highest level in our school system with a classical uh profile languages. Yeah, I think right now there is uh discussion within society that they are putting more emphasis on creating democratic citizens. History is one of the most important subjects to create a climate where uh pupils are are thinking about what kind of society do I live in, what is my place in it, how can I relate myself to people who have other opinions, but still in a democratic way. And I think um history can show then what happens if that is on a turning point on the on a downscale level. Yeah, you know, um of course Nazi Germany or the United States during the segregation, communistic societies are now more important, getting more important because of all kinds of polarization in society. And I think there might be a chance that they well change these profiles and and make it compulsive again. Yeah. Because uh they they find it very important. I don't know, but the word is burgerschaps forming. Citizenship. Citizenship. Yeah. Well, it might be a chance that history goes back to uh being uh one of the most important subjects.
SPEAKER_01We're not objective, obviously, but I do think it should because it gives you just a good understanding of the society that we live in. As you say, to become a good citizen, it's good to know about history, and it's good to be able to relate yourself to the rest of the world, right? What is the country you're growing up in, how does that country stand geopolitically to other countries, what's the past of this country, often a colonial past, so all those sensitivities and understanding who you are as a person also comes with understanding the history of the country that you're in and of your direct environment. It's a waste if if people don't merge themselves uh with it. But to be fair, it is obligatory, it is mandatory for the first years, right? Juniors, you are required to take history, right?
SPEAKER_00So Yeah, but but mm the moment that they start thinking about more complex elements within our subject, when they learn about the enlightenment, well, that is a very low skill level in in the junior classes. I mean, most of the time they pump the information in their head and forget it again. Yeah. Because it doesn't say anything yet for them. But once they are adolescents, a certain um uh learning uh psychologists say that that once you uh are in in the age of uh adolescence, you uh you're you're creating new levels within your brains, and one of them is um thinking about more philosophical uh subjects, uh also concepts like Marxism and yeah, other ways to create the world. What is it? Besturen um govern the world. Yeah, to govern the world and or to look at the world from a certain i uh ideology. Yeah, yeah, that's a shame that uh they miss the half of the students is is missing that. Yeah, but yeah, most of the time these smart kids are still interested in in the world. If you look at more beta kids, uh kids, most of the time they're more concerned with the environment and the way the political landscape in the US is is changing. And if you're looking more on uh economic students on certain levels of the school, we have HAVO and FBO. So FBO is the highest preparing for science, and HAVO is more a high school or uh college. Are they aren't that interested in the world, but that for me it was um I felt a certain responsibility that I'm not only teaching them about history, what happened, but also a bit more like um okay, how are are we keeping the democratic spirit in class? Yeah, uh citizenship. That really keeps me going on. I'm I mean you have a certain feeling of a mission. And well, that's nice, but then of course it's the the question how can we keep them interested in complex matters because sometimes it's really complex for them. And on the other hand, sometimes they follow totally other topics within within politics than we do. Now the the guy who was murdered in uh the United States, this uh right-wing conservative guy who was a friend of Trump. Um um Charlie Kirk. Charlie Kirk, yeah. Did you uh before you was murdered, did you ever heard of Charlie Kirk? I did, yeah. Okay. I had heard of him. Yeah. Well, a lot a lot of my friends, my peers, my sister, who was really uh reading every newspaper, a lot of us were really like, I never heard of this guy. And and then her kids were entering the to the the room, they killed Charlie Kirk. And yeah, that's because they uh got totally other information sources like TikTok and uh yeah, not the newspapers we read. And yeah, that was for me a bit of um a shock, like okay, we're not communicate on the same level. There are some kind of bubbles, but yeah, actually, it's an art to get them interested in in certain uh topics, of course.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that's I like what you said about these bubbles. I think you're very right. I think because people use a lot of media, social media included, and that allows for them to follow you know other people than kind of what is mainstream. So it doesn't happen in the national newspapers anymore or on TV, it happens on TikTok or Instagram or or YouTube or wherever you get your information. And as a consequence, it can become very siloed, right? You can follow certain people and and their ideology and kind of what they what they speak about. I'm of course based in the United Kingdom, and I think Charlie Kirk did play a role in the elections. So if if you've been following the elections slightly, then Charlie Kirk he was a spokesperson for the younger people, which is how he got some mainstream attention. But I'm, you know, again, I'm not the I don't think I'm the audience for Charlie Kirk, but that's because what that's why I heard of him, because he was like, you know, the next generation uh spokesperson. And I think he he also got some airtime, you know, being interviewed by Gavin Newsom, which is the governor of California, for instance, and so they he kind of was this upcoming uh mainstream character who had the voice of the youth, of conservative youth.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And he had a certain uh of course he was charismatic because he was he was really not afraid to debating with with uh opponents. Yeah. Well, his opponents uh had a really uh hard time in beating them debunking in in his uh very convincing uh way of of debating. But yeah, at least that is a debate with maybe values that we don't support, but yeah, the other threats are of course uh this manosphere bubbles. Yeah. And within our school, sometimes experience that some kids' groups are really uh having more right wing ideas, yeah. Because we have um what they call Purple uh Friday, for example, that's uh HBTG uh day that everyone who supports the the community wears something purple, and there is uh some kind of committee of pupils and teachers where where kids who have uh well identity, I wouldn't say problems, but might still searching for their identity or already found their identity, come up with each other to support each other. But there were some kids uh who really um yeah were annoyed and and spoke about this is uh ideological um manipulation. Okay. We did it for years and now we saw something changed. So developments in society, of course, they enter your school, of course. But I don't know if we have still uh the right answer for because it's really changing and and changing fast, and we need to see that.
SPEAKER_01I would love to talk about uh what I think is a project that mobilized everyone, right, in your school that that you started, which is this empty chairs in the classroom project. Take me back to when this all started.
SPEAKER_00Well, it started 15 years ago, actually, by by finding a uh a school archive, our school archive, in a litter skip, you know, where they put the building litter uh because there was a big reconstruction of our school, and someone in the school decided that the school archive was old and uh he wanted to to give another function to the room, so he decided to throw it away. So by coincidence, I was walking by and I saw a lot of archive maps on the litter, and it was already a pile. I was like, wow, what is this? I see old maps with with the years on it on the back, and there were really old ones like 1930, 1940. So I I took some old ones uh out of the container and stored them in my classroom for 13 years. But um two years ago I really found them again, and what caught my eye was uh these were reports of the direct. Of our former school, you know, we have a school which is already 125 years old. In 1957, the whole building was replaced to another location. I found the year reports of the war of the director, and I was reading them, and then certain passages were about the Jewish teachers in the war that were fired. And that was 1940, and a year later, there was a teachers that were fired, they were called by the names, four Jewish names: Mikkelsen, Meyer, Polak, typical Jewish names, and they were uh well expelled. And a year later, there was a little sentence like in 1941, 39 pupils, still written by the director, uh, had to leave the school. That was about it, no names. And yeah, that that was really something like okay, but I want to know more about this, and and that started me to do a little uh research about it. And that brought me to the city archive, and the city archive is is in Amsterdam, is really uh well, the memory of the city. And there I found all the letters that were sent by directors in the war to the Ministry of Education, and they were ordered by the Nazis, give us the list with Jewish pupils. And yeah, there I found several lists also from schools where we're still running today, like the Fossius Gymnasium, Barleyus Gymnasium, the Amsterdam Lyceum, and they were all schools in Amsterdam South. And in the war there was more uh the elite living there. These kids were expelled. I also had one school from Amsterdam East that was the third HBS, also a Lyceum. I don't know if if it's it says uh Lyceum is pretty high that gives you the entrance to uh also science studies. So that certainly brought me to something like not anyone knows this within the school, uh, because we we have a new building, 1957, you know, was nothing about the war, no memories, no monuments. So yeah, that started as wow, this this could be something. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it was all 1941, and you're you found multiple letters written by the school directors saying that they were expelling the Jewish students. So this was like across the board, the old schools in Amsterdam had letters that were submitted, yeah, yeah, um, saying we're getting rid of these students. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and the timing was also very mean, actually, because the Jewish uh families got a letter from their school in a big holiday in the summer that they weren't welcome the next year. Did you see uh one of those letters that was sent? Have you ever seen We have some there was one school that already did send a letter to the parents to declare that they weren't Jewish, and that that's uh of course a bit uh shocking because he wasn't even asked for it. He didn't himself. That's already, you know, uh cooperate with yeah, what's going on? What you think that the Nazi um government uh probably is going to do? But yeah, there was actually one school, one school director who wasn't willing to to send the um list, and he was also doing things that they really didn't like because he was the only director who said goodbye to these kids during a ceremony because he really felt like I'm I'm letting you go, and that that cost him his job, and uh finally he even was sent to uh a camp in Amersworth. But he survived. Yeah, and where did the most of them go? They went to a special school which was organized by the Nazis, the Jewish Lyceum, and there that was a school where only Jewish kids were allowed to get lessons from Jewish teachers. So that's totally uh an important step in the isolation of of the Dutch Jews because they were out of the sight of their um their former classmates. Of other people, yeah. So yeah, I I really um was wondering, of course, when I saw those lists, what happened to these kids, and yeah, then you start uh doing research. But I also thought this could be very interesting for the pupils nowadays to to know about this history about former classmates or former schoolmates, but then uh eighty years ago, more than eighty years ago, because that really uh something they can understand. Because uh most of the time Holocaust education is of course very quickly about deportations to Poland, to extermination camps, while this is of course also a part of that history, but that's more the preparations.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And of course, everyone was a bystander, everyone kind of accepted it.
SPEAKER_00I mean that's a very uh interesting fact you're saying, because a lot of education about the Holocaust has been about the victims, and later on they said, uh okay, we have to be more focused on the perpetrators, uh, the Nazis, but the biggest group is of course the group that is not victim and not perpetrator, and that is the bystander. Yeah. And I think it's very interesting to to look at those school uh leaders to understand what the school segregation. The only thing the Nazis did was, well, we want uh Jewish schools with Jewish teachers, and the Dutch really organized it perfectly. And well, that's something that that we need to uh maybe uh do more research about because um how shall we cope with that? I mean um in in and nowadays in in our Holocaust education it's it's in the school books, it's still a bit the story like we're all were victims of the Nazis. The Jews and the Dutch. Well, we already had a big uh research about the uh the Amsterdam government, and that went especially about the police and the public transport, they really had an well a a big share in in the deportations, of course. Not been good uh research yet about the whole school segregation, except for the book of uh Dink Hondius, that is the yeah, the the researcher who wrote the book about the Jewish Lyceum, but that's just one school because there were lots of Jewish schools which were uh well um set up by the by the Germans. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So, first of all, you you save very important documents from a skip, it's 13 years in your classroom, you read it, you you find out about the situation, you dive into the city archives, and you find the connection between all these schools. Yeah. And then what happened next? You bring it back to the city.
SPEAKER_00Well, then I really um thought this this could be interesting for an exhibition. But I already spoke to the city archive who were really interested because they had a certain part in in the documents, and they said, like, yeah, this could be interesting, but then you need to raise funds yourself. So I went to all those schools that I found in the map. I had five schools, and then uh I found another um an old foundation. These guys were all 70 plus, and they were like um old Jewish guys who would did a lot of exhibitions well ten years ago, and they were actually like saying, like, we we want to support your initiative. Uh we still have some uh funds. So I asked some new foundation members for for the the board, and then I went for the city government and I didn't have a clue about what it needed to cost because yeah, you can do a traveling uh exhibition, you can do it on more schools. So I was like um I thought I I talked to someone, he said, uh maybe you should ask uh 20,000. I thought wow, 20,000. So uh I did my story and then uh that's nice, they said uh the government uh how much do you need? 20,000? Okay. And I was really like uh shit, I could have asked more. But then I got I went back and talked with the foundation again and said, well, if it goes that easily, why not try a uh a bigger plan? So then we made a bigger plan that all schools got their own exhibition and we had an exhibition in the city archive. And um then we went back to the government and then yeah, maybe it has had a certain effect, but we had this big riot, uh riots uh about the Maccabi Ajax game that the Maccabi supporters from Israel were attacked by Palestinian activists, and there was really a lot of trouble in the Jewish community, uh, and and they really were angry about the Amsterdam government for not giving them enough support, so maybe it helped, but then they said, Well, okay, we're gonna look at it, how much do we need? Then I uh had a far bigger amount, and then they said, Okay, we're gonna talk about it, and then one month later it had to go through the whole uh Amsterdam government. They said it yeah, they wanted to fund it. Nice. Yeah, I didn't know how much work I uh put on my own shoulders, but uh yeah, then we um yeah were allowed to make an exhibition, and that had to be uh about the Jewish Lyceum. I had Dean Kohondius uh the writer of the book, asked her also for the for the board of the foundation. Uh was really a nice uh nice way to get uh the right sources. And how was it received? So you have this exhibition. I mean, this is a year in, two years, how long did it be? Yeah, two years ago. But one of the main concerns of the um uh city government was like uh yeah, you should also do something about the Jewish uh family uh of the ones that were on the Jewish school. But that's a bit of a hard assignment because yeah, it's there's not not a list of of those people, so you really need to do more research to find them. But of course, we had a lot of um public attention, so uh finally the there were a lot of people who went for the openings on we had openings on each school doing uh their own exhibition. It was really, really well visited. The Amsterdam Lyceum, who had this director who was not cooperating with the Nazis, that guy after the war invited lots of Jewish pupils who didn't had the opportunity, of course, to go to school to come back. And sometimes he had a special class, and sometimes there were even pupils, former pupils, who got the uh diploma from him for free. So he had really a good name. Uh there are still a lot of Jewish families uh on the Amsterdam Lyceum related to What was the guy's name? Grunning. Grunning. Okay Pete Gunning. Pete Grunning. And he already is a big hero in in their school history. They they know a lot of about him. They're very proud of his uh role during the war. That's right.
SPEAKER_01Am I correct to understand that these were multiple exhibitions in each of the schools at the same time? And so everyone go to their old school or like to visit the exhibition?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, there was of course an exhibition for the most of all for the pupils, and we chose to make an assignment for the third class because that is the class that they treat the history of uh the second world war. And then this was an assignment that they could do in that year. The assignment is that the exhibition is actually some way of creating context and creating an opening to the bigger subject of the Holocaust. So, this assignment was this time, you know, we had this list with the Jewish pupils, and we made them some groups of four pupils, and they all adopted four names, and then they were doing research about their former schoolmates. And then, of course, when they do the research, they go also to sites like Jewish Monument, that's Joods Monument, that is a huge database of all the murdered Jews in Holland, and it's for them going from small to bigger, and then they see how huge and unimaginable actually this mass murder is. And that is a monument there. All the names have little plates, uh, it's a huge monument, very impressive. And then they need to search that name, and then they see how big, of course. That's one of the assignments, and of course, you can do also other assignments with the exhibition.
SPEAKER_01Talk to me a little bit about reception because I mean you got national attention. I saw like newspapers, the ripple effect here, right?
SPEAKER_00Loads of people, and and and what was very special is that we did uh research. We started with our own list, and I even had two uh pupils helping me uh from the start, and then they came up with a name, and they found out that this guy on the list who was born in 1924 was still living. So or 26, he's now uh 98, still living. Mauritz von Witz he came to the the opening and he spoke. He was a great speaker, but he was the one who opened the exhibition on our school. Yeah, that was was really special. Because he couldn't talk about this story most of his life, but actually the last years he was more aware of I should tell my story to the next generation, and yeah, that's what he did. So that's he was reluctant to share. He um was uh is a Holocaust survivor, but he had to fled to Brussels finally, and then is it the same word he he had to uh dive under or he had to go into hiding. Yeah, he had go into hiding, and um yeah, finally uh his father was caught during a visit to the grocery store. They went both went to the grocery store on on uh different ways because it was more safe and they had more chance to get more groceries. And there was a guy, a collaborating Jew, who worked for the Gestapo and they drove in a car, and that guy picked out people who he thought could be Jewish. And there was really, you know, Belgium, you know, was governed by the Wehrmacht, so the chasing Jews was not their main priority while in Holland, but yeah, this was still uh bad luck, and uh he was caught, had to show his penis because uh yeah, of course the circumcised thing, and yeah, then he was caught and sent to Auschwitz immediately. But yeah, he can now talk about it, but that was the last time he saw his father, and yeah, you have so much of that uh sometimes very, very sad stories and sometimes unbelievable stories. We had an opening at the Amsterdam Lyceum, and you know that two pupils of the Amsterdam Lyceum were put on a train to Westerborg on different trains, and they both jumped from the train and survived. And one had to jump while leaving his father and mother, and the other one jumped with his mother, and well, they both survived, but um both their daughters met each other during the opening and didn't knew uh each other yet. Yeah, that's unbelievable if you experience that, of course.
SPEAKER_01What would be my next question? What does it do to you? Because, and this is I think the incredible thing, and you're very grounded in how you approach this, but you kind of found this again, this paperwork in a skip that was you know bound for the garbage and you know never to be seen again. You took it out, and then this ignited this entire beautiful immersive history and awareness project that reunited so many people, and that if I understand you correctly, you have international aspirations as well. You would like to have other people and other countries and you know look at it.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, but the th the thing is that I didn't ha have the aspiration yet, but a guy, also Holocaust survivor from Germany who lives in Dortmund, saw the exhibition in Amsterdam City Archive, and it was really like, Wow, I want to get this to Dortmund. And yeah, that is of course the best compliment you can get. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Listening to it as a as an outsider, of course, and I will say an admirer of what you've done, but it it really allows a school to be introspective, right? So it allows a school to say, here, here's our past, here's where we were, whether we were on the on the good side or on the on the wrong side, it's good to know. And yeah, by exposing that, I think you also educate everyone. Yeah. Dealing with the past, which is kind of yeah, in a way that everyone understands because no one wants to be expelled from school. No one wants to receive a letter like you're not welcome anymore.
SPEAKER_00Another nice activity we we organized was uh some kind of um talk show. And we had a very uh well-known journalist who's already in retirement, but we asked her Hanneke Hunteman, who did very big talk shows in the past. So I I called her and the Jews and she said, like, yeah, I'm I've got to move my stuff to another house, not have that much time. And then I knew she was also on the same school as uh where where I worked, Spinozy, but then she was one of the first pupils of the Spinoz Lyceum. So I started to talk about that. Oh, hey, you're from the Spinozy same, and uh yeah, what do you know? Well, okay, and and then she suddenly said, Okay, I will do it. We met, and I gave her the the book from Dinka Hondius, and she said afterwards, yeah, once I started to read this book, I was totally uh convinced that she did the opposite, yeah. Yeah, yeah. She was really like you it it sucked me in uh into the subjects, and uh and I didn't want to get out of it. Yeah, yeah, and then we asked with her, we could ask uh Arnold Hunberg, and he's a big famous uh writer. He's a novelist, famous novelist, and he had a he has written a lot about the Holocaust, and um yeah, that he really changed my focus on uh like we talked about that too much focus on the victims is is has one uh risk, is that it can create a certain in diverse classes and they call it suffering competition. Like uh hey, uh if you if you have kids with Arabic roots, they could might think, okay, why are we why do we need to pay attention to all this suffering of these people, yeah, these people while they're suffering in Gaza, and that was a big problem because uh on that moment the Gaza War was still very, very going on. Still, of course, with the aftermath, but no, and and he said, well, it might be more important to focus on um how can we preserve our kids, not be becoming perpetrators, yeah. And well, that's my next mission actually to make an assignment to to focus more on these school leaders, bring a bit more balance in it between victims, perpetrators, and bystanders.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. It reminds me of we did a lot of analysis on bystanders because in again the previous life, also, you know, while I was a student, I was part of this project Humanity in Action. And Dina Kohondius is also connected to humanity in action, which takes also students from Amsterdam and takes them to the Holocaust. So I I went to Washington with them, so I did lots with them as well, and it reminds me very much of how we kind of underestimate or or skip the role of the bystander. And the people that were just there, they were not the antagonist, nor were they the victim, and it's because of the fact that they did nothing, or in some cases maybe they did something, yeah, changed the course of history.
SPEAKER_00Historians right now are are focusing on um two components in in the in their discussions. It's about what did the bystanders know, especially when they're institutions, people working for institutions. Then it's very interesting to go back and think like a historian, but what did they know at the time that they were acting? Yeah. And the other is the room for maneuver. Because we might say too quickly from the present, we know the the aftermath, we know how things went afterwards, but they didn't. And so we we really need to to think about okay, what were they thinking about their room for maneuver? And well that's of course very difficult, but that's why I'm very happy with this gunning, because at least he proves that there were school leaders who didn't. Yeah, that it could be done. But I'm not there to convince pupils that they're all guilty, because that's that's of course the the risk that if you only judge them from the present without taking the context of the history, we might also s say too quickly they're all uh guilty. But the risk if you give them uh much context uh from uh the room for maneuver, the risk is also that they say okay they were all victims because they had no room for maneuver or they had no couldn't do anything, yeah. And well, I I really like to um discover if we can find a way bit in between. I I think you you also did a lot of research on on Sbrenica in the past, or I d well I as a history student it came across.
SPEAKER_01It wasn't my final thesis. I wrote my final thesis on Levina, but there was I did one course which indeed looked further into Srebrenica.
SPEAKER_00When we studied it it just happened, you know, it was really during ninety-five or um I was studying and it then it all happened. In a certain way, if if we might teach pupils to to think more about this responsibility, they can maybe also transfer it to other situations. And if you look like Sabrenica, Dutch Bat is also very complex, but they were there as an institution, they had responsibility to protect them, and then you have two things you want to know. What did they know on the moment they were co-operating with the Serbs? And what was their room for maneuver? Yeah, that's of course very hard because all the the whole um uh research after it, uh the government research, I thought they were held responsible for 10%. But it's still certain responsibility, of course. And that's maybe, well, experimental, but yeah, we we should be more aware that are we now teaching them too much, we're all victims. We were all victims in the war, all the Dutch were not responsible, you know? And that's I think that's that's a bit old-fashioned. Yeah, yeah. Because the historiographical discussion is already much further than the education, yeah. Yeah, because the prime minister made this excuses for the treatment of the Jews, the city of Amsterdam, but it's it's not in the history books yet.
SPEAKER_01Loads that you have uncovered, and again, big compliments on all the work that you've done and are doing. Before I get to my very last questions that I ask each uh guest on our show. What is next for empty chairs in the classroom? So expanding Germany potentially, like, are are you going to continue this project or what Yeah?
SPEAKER_00Well, I'd I'd love to, but we had a surplus of money, but then of course we went to the city of uh Amsterdam again. Like, okay, we have uh certain amount and we want to spend it on a podcast because we heard so many stories, and well, we could explain lots more than we did in the uh exhibition. Well, they had to think about it, we're really like, okay, but uh how how are you gonna reach the same pupils? Well, yeah, okay, we we want to make it on their level with with assignments. So we're right now have the uh they have their blessing, and we are now starting in September with making a more series podcast, but really with music and with uh well-known podcast maker, so it's really a bit drum more dramatic, you know, uh a podcast, not talking heads, but more uh what happened and and um and we have a really interesting story about there's a girl on the only class photo that which is left of the Jewish Lyceum, and she's in the middle of the of the photo, and that's because they were saying goodbye to her because she knew she was going to emigrate to the United States in 1942 while she was in a Jewish school, deportations were starting three months later. So the big question is of course how did she got to America? How is this possible? Because lots of Jews tried to flee uh Holland when when Holland was uh occupated by the Germans in in the first days, they all went to Eymiden, paid lots of money to get on the boat, really dramatic, a lot of suicides. So that wasn't that easy. If you had to flee, you had to have money, you uh you really had to um hide yourself. And they were like in the open. So that's a really interesting story to tell. Of course, that gives us opportunity to give more context about okay, what what is a Jewish Lyceum, who were these kids, uh what were the phases in in during the occupation which they all passed. And yeah, that's uh really a new adventure because I never made a podcast before, so at least it's not in English. But it should be in English.
SPEAKER_01It should be in English. No, I I think it's good. It's good. Well, I'm excited, and we'll include in our show notes the link to empty chairs in the classroom. It I appreciate it's all in Dutch, but it is definitely worth your time and attention and just to have a have a short glimpse into you know this history, you know, it's part of history, and I and I think that's where you are the gatekeeper of, right? As a teacher, as a history teacher, as a history student, but now also as a narrator of history.
SPEAKER_00Because when I started with history, like we went to this student fraternity, and once I was finished with my study, uh everyone was doing applications at big companies like Heineken or going into being a solicitor, yeah, advocates, yeah, doctors, and then yeah, of course, history teacher. I was in the beginning like uh okay, uh it's not the most cool, uh coolest job, and I'm skipping it for myself. I really find it the most exciting job still, and and well, with these uh adventures along, it's really um creating your own uh perfect job. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01As you said in the beginning of the interview, you are yourself and you can be yourself as a human being as well, having the job that you have. So I think that completes the picture, really.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. This one one metaphor I I want to share. Uh if you if you're not uh you know this uh movie like Roundup Day? The guy who gets in a village and and doesn't get out and and experiencing the same day over and over again.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, uh it felt a bit like being him. I I I got in a totally different world I was expecting, and I was like, oh okay, I want to get out of there. I mean I I had some other adventures as well, maybe you know, in the fashion industry. But yeah, in the movie, at a certain point he knows that he can be there for people every day and make people happy again, and he gets happy from from that, you know, and it's a turning point in because he gets in love with the girl. And yeah, uh it felt a bit like that. In the beginning, I was like, oh no, how how long I'm gonna uh be like this teacher. Oh no, every every day it's a really uh and uh yeah, and a certain point you're really uh experiencing that you can do so much for them and for the world around you that um that gives you uh the energy for the long term.
SPEAKER_01I think once you got comfortable with your environment, you became more aware and you started doing other stuff that because I know you indeed as a very entrepreneurial person, right? You always have projects you're always undergo or trying to do something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but the difference was in the in the in the beginning it was like uh you know, I did a fashion label during my teachership, it was really like two worlds, and now it's more like combining it's one, it comes together. I do something outside the school, but not totally, you know. Yeah, it's it's really um giving me uh the the job that I love. Nice because uh I still have have room for for projects which the school also finds interesting or loves. Yeah. And yeah, then you create um double value, I guess.
SPEAKER_01Wonderful. So now I would like to dive into my two very last questions, case if you don't mind. Okay. One is about uh I've become an amateur researcher on morning routines with this podcast.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so I ask each and every guest, do you have a morning routine? And if so, do you care to share? And I know I remember before we clicked record, you said you you were developing one because you're you're off to the gym often. But yeah, but not in the morning uh yet.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_00No, my morning routine is um I get a cup of coffee uh seven o'clock, double, flat white. Of course, I already looking for the newspaper and the news, and then I need to um take my dog out. Yeah. And uh when my kid, he's now more uh self-sufficient already. He he he he makes his own sandwiches now, so it's more like hey, have a nice day. Yeah, yeah, and then of course when I go to school, uh it's most of the time uh being there for the kids. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So the coffee and the news, that's your morning routine, and then making sure the dog gets walked.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, going outside with the dog is one of the best uh things to relax. To relax, huh? So here's my daughter, she she can.
SPEAKER_01Hey, hello, hello. This is Nora. Nora, this is Case. Hey Nora. Speaking of Nederlands, oh good. And then we're gonna ask the very last question to Case. And the very last question is In your career path, has there been any reading, any book that has inspired you to who you are today? For so for those of people listening in that say, hey, I would like to develop myself as Case has developed himself. This this book is a is a good recommendation.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, I don't know. Uh although I I really love biographies of uh big statespeople like Churchill, less big uh people like Adolf Hitler I'm reading right now, uh Volker Ulrich. But um let me see. They're in class as well. The comfort of philosophy the troost van the philosophie. Okay, the comfort of philosophy, but I like it. Noted about human problems. Which answers do the philosophers have on the human problems we experience? Yeah. That's uh really uh a game changer.
SPEAKER_01That sounds like a great recommendation. Alain Boteau. It was a very interesting interview. Thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, you too, for all the picking me out. I think it's a story that is worthy of being told also internationally. Again, we will include all the links in our show notes, and we just want to say thank you to Case, eh, Nora?
SPEAKER_02Thank you.
SPEAKER_01Can you nog? We're going on a play date now, so it's I don't know. Have a nice play date for the friends, yeah. She needs her dad to drop her off, so that's why we're thanks so much. Take care. Bye-bye. You've listened to Pulse by Alpha Wire, produced by Natalie Piles and Amela Faisal, with great music, The Optimist, written by Holly Hamill, performed and produced by Alo. Episodes hosted weekly by me, Aldo DePo.