GREEN ROOM_Ep 7 Nurturing Talent in Theatre Education

In episode seven of The Green Room, Mik and Nik chat about how they fell into teaching and what they’ve learned across 30+ years in performing arts. They contrast different teaching models (institutions, holiday workshops, agency-style courses, private kids’ schools) with their own performance-first approach: every class needs a clear objective and a real outcome, because the “teaching moment” is the performance itself. They unpack a practical “mud map” of how groups gel over a 10-week term, how to ride cohort ebbs and flows, and how to manage behaviour without shame by using “the work” as the neutral boundary. They argue for flexible tools, authentic communication, letting students build their own toolbox, harnessing neurodiversity creatively, and ending with a debrief week after the show—plus, if you’re not having fun, don’t do it.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Welcome back to the Green Room.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

You're with Mick and Nick where we talk about everything and anything to do with theatre and performing arts. And it's great to have you with us. Today we are actually having a bit of a chat about how we both got into teaching, some of the trials, tribulations, and all the bits that go with it.

SPEAKER_02 0:30

I hope you enjoy.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

This episode of the Green Room with Mick and Nick is proudly recorded on the Ghana lands of the Adelaide Plains. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. We proudly acknowledge the elders of the past, present, and emerging, and are grateful we can contribute our story to the tapestry of stories already here. And uh it's a lazy public holiday weekend.

SPEAKER_04 1:11

And we finally found the time to sit down for a minute and do our podcast. Yay! Which means we don't have to do the cleaning, we like that. What's going on at the moment? Uh fringe and the festival are on, Womads are also on in our beautiful city of Adelaide. Um if you have never experienced the fringe, it truly is a delight and a wonder. Um get ready to spend some money, see some incredible shows, see a few flops, but ultimately have an incredible experience. Um Wymad is going off this year. We haven't made it this year, but Grace Jones has been wowing everyone and being extraordinarily cheeky at 77, which I love, showing her butt and declaring that she needs a root and uh hula hooping all the way through a song. Um gosh, she is amazing. Um, not to mention just countless other incredible musicians and acts at Wormad. So get on down, check it out. We don't usually spruit, but it's once a year.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

There's uh lots of stuff with the festival too, including uh three shows from Slingsby who are folding this year. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:27

Get in before you can't.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Didn't get their uh annual federal government funding from the government or whatever, so that means it's another company subject to the sort of Damocles that is Australian government funding and um is now gonna have to close after no pushing 20 years, I think.

SPEAKER_04 2:47

So that's uh among many of the others, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah. But uh this podcast isn't about all of that stuff. Um sure if you wanted to delve into the nature of the uh Australian and Adelaide specific political machinations of arts funding, there's plenty of places commentating on that. What we're going to do is chat about another aspect of our 30 plus year careers, um, which uh has been teaching of various kinds. Um I think there is uh uh a sidebar to towards directing because sometimes when you're directing you're actually teaching as well, but we're gonna focus more on.

SPEAKER_04 3:33

Often we especially with young or inexperienced actors or performers.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Often the act of directing youth groups or young people who are inexperienced is via doing the project, the project outcome, which requires a director, so kind of teaching as you're doing. Which is probably a good place to start with our teaching, is that generally we we've always had the approach with teaching that there should be a a performance-driven outcome at the end of it of some kind, even if it's just a show and tell. But neither of us have really been attracted to theatre sports or games for the sake of games just to teach skills, I think, without an outcome.

SPEAKER_04 4:16

Yeah, I I I started teaching at a ridiculously young age, so I was about eleven or twelve when I started taking the little babies ballet classes and jazz classes, and um, you know, I I uh I just had role modelling to show me what to do, and there was such intense structure surrounding dance. As I got older, um, you know, obviously as I got older, I left the teaching behind so I could be taught and get through my career, and then went back to teaching. And the thing that I really noticed uh over the years, particularly doing a lot of workshops and uh in schools and things like that, is that uh I my style was really developed through wanting to be the sort of teacher that I didn't get to be the sort of teacher that understood the the the impacts uh on well-being, psyche, um, that understood that not every student learns in the same language, and that's that's what really made me start flipping the switch on how we do everything. We had one student, it wasn't actually myself that unlocked this riddle, it was one of the other teachers in the studio, but um she was she was like a newborn foal, you know, just left foot, right foot, always mixed up, um, hard to hold herself up, um, lacked a lot of inner core, and then one day uh we uh we the teacher switched it up and said, Look, it's nothing more than math, and explained it in a mathematic equation. From that moment on, this student just it all clicked together, and again, you know that so looking outside the square, instead of saying this is a model now, squish into it. Well, if you don't, you're not good enough, is crap, and um, and so we've yeah, we've always had that philosophy that there there's a million different ways you can do it. There's no right, there's no wrong, but there is duty of care, and there is crafting and thinking, and yeah, all those other things.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

Well, as always, there's lots of different ways we can sort of tackle this beast. I think um let's let's start with maybe professionally that teaching is one of those sort of second string aspects to a career that provides an income of some kind. If you're good at it and you can get get work at it, it does provide that secondary income. There are yeah, there are people like why and how do you teach? So there's teaching at institutions and colleges, which is really sort of some, you know, that's kind of a legitimacy, I guess, to that kind of teaching. Um, there are a lot of artists, like I notice over the dry period over Christmas and New Year's when there's a lot of that there's little sort of professional work happening, that that's when a lot of directors or writers or something will do like holiday workshops. Like it's a little mini courses, little mini courses, so it's a supplementary income and they're sort of trading on the, you know, they do a course from um young actors getting ready to go for auditions, yeah, you know, all those sorts of things. Um filmmakers wanting to go into college or take uh uni or agents, actors' agents who um work we look at putting our kids through uh an agency, but really their business model is teaching. And they're because the reality is there's so little work coming through that they can't sustain themselves as an agency just by the actors' talent alone and the gigs they're getting. So they supplement it with running acting workshops. And but then what they do is they often tie it to you can't be on our books until you've done this particular acting course. Yeah, or you have to do acting, you have to do dance, and you have to do modeling, and you have to pay for all those courses, then you have to face so they're they're supplementing and they're they're trading on on a on the they're trading on the celebrity and the fame and the your kid can get a break kind of lottery ticket of it, I think. But uh that's that's another way of teaching. Um there's the teaching that we did when we ran a company, so we ran a small studio where we had classes of various age groups, and then those they all those classes formed a like a company, and that company would then produce work. Um, so we kind of tried to pitch ourselves at that intermediary kind of academy environment where where you were getting skill like you know, a lot of our students went on to further training and a professional careers, and it's sort of, you know, not that we sort of launched all these people, but we certainly gave them the grounding, and that was our purpose, really, to give them the grounding that they could pursue it if they wanted to. They had enough that they could get into a college or a university, they could pursue stuff, and um, so there's that's where we sort of pitched our teaching. So there's a number of different ways. I've noted we've both noticed over the last, well, you've noticed particularly over the last what month or so, how many um private drama schools for the little drama schools all over the suburbs have popped up that haven't been around. And they're filling a gap that a lot of youth theatre companies used to do, a lot of youth, like only youth, which became Urban Myth, um, Southern Youth Theatre en sounds.

SPEAKER_04 10:16

Well they might have been around for a while, but they're blossoming, they're growing, you know. Um I think one of the at the uh at the uh 30 odd years end of my um I'm not saying the end, I mean like at the tapered end of this uh teaching career. My philosophy is very much that you have to have an objective when you teach. You have to have an objective and an outcome. You have to have a a large toolcase of um tools, different tools and ideas. You have a large case of them when you walk in in your brain, and you have to be able to practice holding on tightly and letting go lightly, and that's across the board. So you might walk into a class. Um, I learned very young that if you you can sit there and you can structure out an entire class uh word for word, and within 10 minutes of walking in there and trying to achieve that objective and follow your class plan, it's out the window. However, you've still got to get to the end. You've still got to achieve that objective you had for the day. So you find yourself ditching the plan, still holding on to the objective, but finding other ways there. Maybe they're all upset today because a class was a bit distressing. Maybe the wind is really getting to them. It doesn't matter what it is, fighting it is like getting into a debate with an autistic person. You can't win it, right? It's never going to work. So for me, it's about um knowing exactly what you want to do, having faith in all the tools that you have, being open to showing them that you're thinking through it, being honest and authentic, and most of all passing those tools across to them. They're not a secret, they're not yours to keep as some wizard of oz where they all look at you going, wow, font of all wisdom, but you never give them the tools. And I just keep coming back to you. That's not my thing. Every student has to go. You gotta let them go, and they're only gonna want to hold on to you as long as it takes so they can build up their own toolbox. And when they have to leave you, you don't want them to be afraid, you don't want them to feel toolless out there. So it's really about showing them, modeling that I don't have all the tools, but I've I've been around and I've got a brain and I've got a will to achieve something. And here's my toolbox. What are we all gonna do? Can anyone else see a tool I haven't seen? And actually, um then you are passing all that knowledge along, knowing when to knowing when to pull it back in and make that change where you then become dictator can be hard. But again, I just share that moment with my cohorts. I go, hey gang, we're at the point now where we can't play together. I now have to be your director, and you have to respond in this way, and we all gotta do these things for each other to get to here now. So I'm gonna switch hats. And that they can comprehend, that they can add into, but anything that makes them feel lesser, that makes them feel like they are dependent, is is crap teaching, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 14:08

Well, I think you Yeah, I mean, yeah, man, you covered a a lot. Yeah, but like to go back to your first point of your objective for the class or the course, that's that's a very good that that really you gotta get that right. And then you then you need all your tools and all the rest of it. Because if you've got all the you could have all the tools in the world and all the experience in the world, but if you don't have that objective, that outcome, then and I think in our unique um field of performance is that you do it it is outcome driven. There's a there's always a performance, there's got to be a performance. If there's no performance with an audience, then there's nothing, it's just playing games with babies.

SPEAKER_04 14:56

Fucking around in a room.

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Even if that performance is just a shot in a room or uh an example of a class of something, it it the the change that because that that performance outcome we've seen it so many times with so many clo course classes with kids, right? They're little fucking shits for nine weeks. And then in week 10 when they've got to perform in front of their parents, bang. Like there's something about the idea of the pressure that's not saying that their their their parents are watching, that they're being seen, that it's all about them, that they've got they don't have to it all of that stuff comes together. That's the that's the learn.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

I think for us they realize it's not about them individually, they realize that they're all sharing energetically a moment together to make a piece of magic happen.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

That magic. So for us, that that for us when we're teaching, we know that that is the actual teaching moment. You spend nine weeks getting to the teaching moment. The teaching moment is the performance where that lived experience of putting all that together comes to fruition and happens. That's when you see the change in everyone. That's because that's the map, but that's the only real teaching moment of any, it could be six weeks, ten weeks, however long a project is, you map it out to go where's the performance outcome here? Right, that's my teaching moment. There's your outcome and your objective. Now, what are my tools? Knowing and this is where my tools and how do I use them to get it.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

And this is where knowing knowing the flows and the ebbs of a cohort, of any cohort are important.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

You know, it doesn't matter what you ride those ebbs and flows like a like a waves, and to it, but you can still navigate towards that endpoint.

SPEAKER_04 16:52

You've got an average like in a in Australia, in in South Australia, we have uh 10-week terms on average, right? Nine, 10, 11-week terms. If you've got a cohort for 10 weeks, the first three to five weeks is literally just figuring each other out, finding out what their strengths are, what they like, what gives them energy and excitement, what's too much, what's all those little bits, yep, what they love, what's important to them. And every cohort becomes an individual little culture of its own. So then you gotta figure out what that culture of this cohort is. Once they've all and once they've all got together, you also have to manage uh generally, even with adults, I would say right through the spectrum, you have to teach them how to play together. And this can be difficult. You have to teach them how to imagine, express, and play together. Now, all those elements can be dangerous in a group of very varied personalities. So by week uh four, five, six, now we're dealing with um with kids who are feeling like their needs aren't being met, uh, kids who are or adults, doesn't matter if you're working with a group of adults, it's just gonna be a different expression of it, but it's the same pattern. Three to five weeks for you all to come together once you know each other enough, then you start to, then you just start to um play and work together. While you're playing and working together, that exposes social issues among the group. Then we have to pass over all the social issues, which is important because we can't do a show without all coming together. We can't do it without each other, we're we're screwed. So then um then they get past that, and then we finally we're in week six now, week six or seven. We're going to perform in week 10, and although we're slowly working towards things and putting bits together, it's probably not till week six or seven that we'll actually start to make it all come together. Um, and the way, and generally, that's with a group piece of some nature, whether it be an acting piece or a physical piece of movement, at around about that point, you bring them all in with a run to start the show or to do a run so it they get aflow. It's got a something that has rhythm and pressure and pace about it. Well, they all have to lock in. And from that moment on, you're pretty much working hard on the show.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah, so that first installation of putting the machine together and just run it, and you gotta have the expectation that it's gonna be rickety as fuck and fall over completely.

SPEAKER_04 19:52

Yeah, you're gonna lose your leading lady the night before the week before you do the show.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Like yeah, as long like that's fine. I don't think I don't think that should be a point of stress or or or you know, an excuse for emotional tantrums. That's actually something dysregulation. That that's actually something that you plan for in the planning of your your course or your teaching module. Because you gotta understand that, yeah, the first time I put this up, it's gonna fall over and collapse. And that's again your learning opportunity. See how it all fell apart because of this, this, this, this, and this. So next one.

SPEAKER_04 20:29

I know you didn't mean to fall over, but but it is there a way can we put it in the show because it was incredible.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

But it also teaches some sort of accountability and responsibility in their in their in what they have to contribute. So that's when they as a teaching example in that workshop, it's a great device to it's it's it's a device that comes from the the organic development of a group under under this kind of pressure, but it's a device because it can be used to teach those codependent things. If you have to be responsible for yourself as part of a collective group effort, so you have to work two things at the same time. Okay, your own responsibility and your awareness of the and your accountability to other people, and that's that happens, yeah, probably about two-thirds of the way through. Yeah, when you're starting to feel panic that you're not going to get the show together, but then that will create a whole heap of other kind of ripples and tensions as they learn to grow and work those new pathways of understanding, and it'll be bumpy and crappy as heck, as again, but different. It'll be coming together then, and people will start to the ideas you get back from from the kids or the performers then are not just random ideas because they have one, but they're captured and they're actually contributing ideas to how it can work better. So now they're actually. Manifesting through their thoughts and their deeds how they're going to make this better. Yeah. So they've shifted gear mentally and emotionally in them side of themselves as well. So now they're starting to gear into this again, this performance outcome.

SPEAKER_04 22:15

Now, this doesn't all this isn't. I want to make it really, really clear that Mick and I don't teach in the regular way, right? This is not going to this sort of This is a loose map. This only work. If you would if you gave them an actual script, a hard copy script of Peter Pan, Alice in Wonderland, whatever you want, right? And we had 10 weeks to do it, I I wouldn't even take the job, right? It's not going to happen. Yeah, this this yeah, it's not going to happen. That is it. That is important. Because we have we have complete structure going on here. Now, this structure, these kids know, or these adults know, and they think, oh I know, I know what I'm doing. I I I learn the words and I stand here and and I go and that it's and instantly they've switched off. They're not even open to learning anything new about theatre in that case.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

That's not okay, yeah. No. You're uh that's not to say that um, yeah, okay. This this mud map of a plan can work with scripted pieces. Yes, you're right. Takes long work. We don't we don't generally work and you'd have to shake it up. Pre-written scripted pieces. We work in a sort of ground of theory kind of we build the show up from exploration and develop creative development. So we work without a script and we develop one through the process. This process so it's really adaptable and malleable, and it's a really loose. It'd still be narrative and have dialogue, and but it's not but it's different to being handed a script with stage directions and lines and response that now that's not to say you can't use this same mud map in that creative process. But you'd have to shake it up. You've got to work within those those more narrow definitions of a script and staging. And I don't think but I don't think those should be seen as a negative thing. It's kind of like that's the real, that's like the Olympic sport version of the craft. That's when you take all that loosey-goosey, malleable, existentialist play, and then you can then then you um you know you frame it within these words and these texts and these characters, and then that becomes a whole other journey again.

SPEAKER_04 24:32

So I think the macro kind of way at looking at how we create and then making a micro um because a lot of the people we work with.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

A lot of the people we usually work with, we're we're at that stage where we're introducing theatre and the night nature of performance anyway, as a concept. Now we're not sort of jumping straight into let's do a Shakespeare or a Pinter or something like that. We're just kind of trying to introduce people into the very rudimentary concepts of ensemble work, so creative imagination.

SPEAKER_04 25:09

A really good way of uh a really good example of that is um Mick and I were worked shopping a while ago and um and we were close to show times, we were rehearsing, and we try we were explaining the nature of um indicating the and the um American um movies and television often use a lot of indicating. Oh look, Gary's at the door. When in fact the viewer can see Gary at the door, we don't need you to tell us or point at him, but they like to make things very obvious for us, right? And we asked the kids, do you feel like that's fun when you're watching something? Or would you like something that was more engaging that made you go, what was that? You know, and from that moment on, these kids were so into the idea, particularly this one book, just so into the idea of not feeding into the dumb. Let's let's let's make the audience work, you know, let's make them think. And um, and this is a huge lesson. They would it wouldn't have even come the same way if it was Little Red Riding Hood or whatever, it'd be much harder because they've got in their head this way of delivering it. Um, whereas we're unpacking how we want the audience to feel or how we want to introduce this scene. There's no given set dialogue or rules. So, what would be interesting, unique, what would capture you? And that way they're opened up and not set in a text or a book with directions.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Bring up this really interesting point now, is because you mentioned the idea, and which is again fundamental to what we do is we're always saying, Yeah, what would what do you want to feel as an audience, or what do you want the audience to feel? They're on the ride too, so you gotta you gotta make you know take them on the journey of feeling and act like puppeteers.

SPEAKER_04 27:09

And if someone came out and screamed like that, would you freak out in the audience?

SPEAKER_01 27:13

You're thinking in this kind of outside of your but you're thinking in this kind of way that's outside of yourself, yes, perspective of the audience from the perspective of someone else. That's a constant thing you're repeating in the process. So it was really interesting the other day. I came across a little reel with Sean Aston, who's now who was the Goonie, you know, Sean Aston Goonies.

SPEAKER_04 27:34

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

And um and um Frodo. Yeah, um he's the president of some big Hollywood thing at the moment, and he was interviewing um Harrison Ford. And and um Sean Aston was starting this by saying he had a really interesting conversation with Peter Jackson on filming of Lord of the Rings somehow. And and Peter Jackson said something to him along the lines of consider this is how I want the audience to feel in this scene. And for Sean, he said that was a revelationary moment in his career. Wow, yeah, that's what I thought. Wow, and Harrison Ford was just like, yeah, you always got to be thinking about the audience, and it really made me go, Wow, there it there are performers out there who, and I guess film and maybe TikTok and social media influences and those types of performances now. Uh do they think about the audience? How do they think about the like because obviously Sean's work up to there, or his thinking about his work up to then was just such an insular filmic kind of process. I have to be in this moment, I have to be in this moment, this feeling, this thing, and it's all through my eyes, and it's all about me. And yet, and had totally not considered thinking about how do I want the audience to feel at all. And that was um oh yeah, that was amazing to hear. I'm so I'm so grateful Harrison Ford just came back and went, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:09

Yeah, I've I I must admit, about one of my favorite, I've got a few favourite speeches and I've time them out appropriately. I mean, every cohort's a little bit different from week to week, but you know when it's coming. And in the week before or the week of the show, depending on again when it's the right moment, I absolutely make sure that I ask the whole well, they're not a cohort by then, they're an ensemble by then. So I asked the ensemble, who do you think this is about? When we get up here and we all do this, is it about you? Is it about the story? Is it about this? What is it? Is it about you? And often their first response, God bless their honesty, is well, yeah, yeah, I'm the most who is the most important person? Sorry, is my question. Whoops. Who is the most important person? Who who is absolutely the most important in this room when we do this show? And they always say ourselves first, and I go, yeah, I mean that's really you are important, but if it was just you up on stage, would we have a show? No. So cool, we all need each other. Is that the most important thing, though? Who's the most important person in the room? Who's the most important people in the room? And eventually it takes them quite a while, and they go, the audience. Because if the audience don't understand what we're doing, and they don't feel like we care about what we're doing, and if they don't feel like we have a we want to perform for it, we want to share this with them, then they're not going to connect with us. And if they don't connect with us, then why have we done this? What have we done? We're just jumping around in costumes, being, you know, and is that what you want? And it's a pivotal moment. Every single cast that actually understands that, and you can hear it click, you know, like you can see it and hear it, and that understands that produces a performance that actually um defies expectations of anyone in the audience. Generally, it gets an immediate standing ovation, regardless of the age or the content, because that's that's some really brave, authentic work up there. Even if the kid almost whispered their lines, you know, it's quite evident that uh it's the first time maybe they've ever spoken on stage. And they did it. And they did it because they wanted to say it for you, and the audience just wants to squish them with a hug afterwards, you know, like it's they're so grateful um for such brave performances. So, you know, yeah, I think it is important to do all those bits. The other thing I think is important to note is that teaching isn't all about this. Teaching is noticing the kid in the corner, and that it's not just anxiety and finding a way to subtly get over there and to investigate while at the same time watching another kid have an autistic meltdown and another kid with ADHD getting overwhelmed and going, Oh god, okay, I need to let my AT, my assistant teacher, know I need five minutes with this kid. Can you go and get two sets of headphones for those two kids? And in the meantime, between us, can we keep the teaching going? So along with that is parents. Along with sorry, and along with that, yeah, and parents are valid, and along with that is also the institution you may be working for. So, yeah, there are levels.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Well, I was gonna say you're getting into the area now where and we've probably skipped over it up to this point, um one of those variables that happens that you always gotta account for, and it often comes from those first few weeks where you're teaching them how to play and how to interact and how to shape their imagination and how to be to be when all of that early stuff is going on when people are finding their place, that's where these you you invariably have to deal with behavior, yeah. And there is and this is where a lot of it's really easy, like fuck man, I get it. I so get it. It's really easy to just slip into behavior management and at the expense of running the project and continuing to work towards your objective in empathetic way, which and your objective is to get them to work as an ensemble collectively through compensating and understanding and accounting for their own differences, be them medical or neurological or psychological or emotional or physical or whatever their differences are autistic in a wheelchair, you know, um neurotypical with a with trauma with emotional trauma, you know, alpha males and and spoilt tweenies, spoilt tweenies and kids, kids who never get attention uh anywhere else but somehow get it here, and then they're flushed with power and they don't know what to do with it. All of that stuff is is is to be expected. You're like you're bringing all of that stuff to the surface by asking people or teaching people to interact with each other in a way they're not used to. So that's to be expected, and you do need to monitor it and you do need to have deal with individuals, yeah, and you do need to have consequences, communication with parents, and you do need to have communication as clear, as clear as possible. Don't leave anything as ambiguous. Uh and but you need so you need to do that, but where it's but you need to be aware that it's yeah, sometimes you just slip into stop doing that, stop doing that, be quiet, now sit down, now do your show, you know, doing all those tropes, like the the people that you you you hate, you know. Oh my god, I sound like that teacher that I had who was just horrible. Oh my god, I never, you know, da da da. It's really easy, but you've got to try and I think the best way is to appreciate the fact that these behaviours are coming to the surface because you are creating a new way of thinking and being for people. And so that that's that's just something that goes with the territory. Every one of these, but you've got to keep working towards that objective because you got this is actually part of part of what becomes the learning mod tool at the end is that they've learnt to overcome all of that and work through all of that.

SPEAKER_04 36:14

They've come to your class, they wouldn't be there, they have a right. Um, and you know that all these behaviors come from needs not being met or um absolute misunderstanding that uh communication well or the feeling that communication is scary and dangerous. Well, haven't they been modeled? So maybe they haven't had they haven't had good models, they haven't ever experienced trusting, reliable people. There's so many different elements. But here's where, yeah, this is what I mean about hold on tight, let go light. Um it's a really important thing when we're working in theater, and you can ask anywhere in the world. This is the same thing everywhere. Uh just maybe described differently. There's there's something we call we a term we use, yes and we generally sit in a circle there uh only when they're full in their ensemble mode, and I have the the room set up with chairs for audience and whatever, will I let them sit in the chairs, but they know they're sitting in their audience's chairs, it's a whole different vibe. Um we sit in a circle, whether it's on chairs or on the floor, everyone is equal, and everyone's contribution is important. It may not be something we end up putting in the show, or it might be a little controversial, or this or that, but we don't yuck other people's yums and we don't yuck other people's ideas. Now, lots of people who teach teach their cohort this but don't actually model it. And yes, if a kid wants to stand on a chair, that might be a bit dangerous, but could you get two other kids on either side of the chair to hold it and keep it steady and then and two other kids to hold their hand? Could you you could at least try it? So you could say, Yeah, and uh what I'd like to do to make sure you're safe is this. Are you happy with that? And I go, Oh no, actually, I might not worry. That's fine too, yeah. But you didn't just go, no, we're not doing that because it's not safe with no other way to think about it.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

You have to, as a teacher, you have to model some kind of vulnerability and giving some trust in moments, which even if you know it's not going to work, and obviously you don't put anyone in danger, but if you know a moment or an idea is just this, you know, but just give it its breath, give it its air, let it let it suffocate in the world. It's a big example, but that giving that vulnerability gives trust as well. That that you can start so you're not policing the policing their ideas, and you're a trustworthy adult, you're not a crazy person who went, yeah, let's get up with a chair and get a chainsaw.

SPEAKER_04 39:15

You went, yeah, you know what, yes, I'm gonna say, yeah, but let's do it safely, okay?

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Well, let's see if we can make the idea work a different way, but let's do that. You're showing them trust, they're showing you trust. You've got to model that. And so you have to so, but yeah, a lot of teachers, again, that's not being you you don't want to if you're a teacher who's too rigid in what you're going to do, or if you're a teacher who's too ego-driven about this is some kind of representation of your own creative mastery or whatever, then you're not going to be the sort of teacher who shows that vulnerability uh which engenders respect and earned respect. So that that's something that probably is going to help um in in those moments as well to get kids to trust you with their ideas and to actually trust you to do things when you ask them to do it, then because then they trust you to go, okay, well, they're not going to tell me something that's not good for me or not.

SPEAKER_04 40:11

That you know, they've got you know, and we're talking about that. That's a really good example, but let's let's take it down to something small, yeah. Um, this is another example where teachers just don't model, you know. We're we're in the circle, we're doing everything great, and the teachers going around one by one asking for ideas. You know, what sort of characters would you like to be in this play? What sort of characters do you think you could be in this play? And it's a play about goblins, right? And one kid puts their hand up and says, Um I want to be Bumblebee, a transformer. Now, this is where uh often they'll go, the teacher then will respond with, Thank you for that input. However, uh, we're actually doing a play about goblins, so I don't think that's gonna work. Can you think of something else? You know what? I never bother anymore. I go, yeah, why not? I don't know how we're gonna do it, man. But let's see. Sometimes the kid will drop it, sometimes they won't.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Let's face it, in a world where multiple movies called Sharknado were made, why the heck can't you have a transformer in a story about goblins? You know, have you yeah, that's the whole point. I don't know.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

Okay, at the very end of the show, at the very end of the show, when we expose that that that this this was a kid's dream or you know, whatever, or when the war between the goblins is so severe that they can't find a way out. Bumblebee arrives, and then we don't have to explain that. And no one ever asks. I mean, we've used a carrot as a weapon in the show, and no one actually ever commented on the carrot. It's it's bizarre, you know. Well, the scene was very serious, so no one everyone just sort of I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 42:04

Went with it.

SPEAKER_04 42:05

Yeah. Um, um, yeah, so I think it's really simple things. Like you don't you feel like when you say things like, Oh, well, it's a great idea, Anthony, but you're still saying no, and you're still saying, like, your what is important to you, and what especially with kids who are neurodiverse, what's important to you is nice, but we're not interested. Now, I'm saying this from a place where I've actually worked with whole groups of autistic kids in the room. Um, I've worked with more than one kid who has um come in completely nonverbal and has gone on to take lead roles in shows. And when I first met each of them, uh, like in one case, they wanted to be an animal all the time. They wanted to be a kitty cat all the time. And I said, Yeah, sure, you can be a kitty cat. You can be a kitty cat on my lap, you can be a kitty cat, um, you know, sitting in the chair there, you can be a kitty cat in the play. I don't mind where you want to be if you want to do that. And then eventually uh I want to be this, well, this this one's a person. Is that okay with you? Yeah, I would do that. Cool. Yeah, the power of actually seeing them and not just constantly pushing towards these structured objectives that actually crush um potential trust, connection, imagination, play, and fun seem counterintuitive to me.

SPEAKER_01 43:42

If I can borrow your phrase, yes, and you still need you so you still so that might sound really counterintuitive to let um sort of social behaviour that's really out there go and just accept it. Um Because you know, but that there still has to be a boundary. Oh, of course. And the boundary the boundary to that behaviour is always the boundary of as long as it doesn't affect the work. Once your behavior starts to impact the effect of the work, the rehearsal, the objective of trying to get this on for the performance, like once it gets in the way of that ensemble collective group effort, then that's the boundary for any social behavior. Yeah? Because that that's something that everyone it's a bit neutral. It allows for the space of everyone's peccadillos and differences and behaviors and stuff to be sort of accommodated for.

SPEAKER_04 44:50

And it for in order for this to work, everything that Mick spoke about earlier, with you can at in the earlier weeks, you can let behavior rule everything. Um this is where it's important. This is why we it always comes back to the work. Even if we're just doing a warm-up game, uh a game that is teaching them something about acting, something about um authority, how how you show you have authority or whatever, you know. Um, and there's one kid having an issue because it is always about the work, right? You always bring them back to the work, always back to the work. You you're really welcome to come back in when you're ready. You know, this is what we're teaching them, this is what we're showing at the moment, always coming back to the work and the show. At the very end of the many discussions with kids, you go, Well, you know, how do you want to do this? Because we really want you to be a part of this, you know. Uh how will it work for you that we can slowly get you in here and but you know, back to the work. Well, I'm not sitting there going, how do we fix your behavior? It also make you happier.

SPEAKER_01 46:03

A point to negotiate with them about whatever their wants and needs are. They came here to do the work. Whatever their wants and needs are, you can always and what they feel like they deserve or whatever, you can always use that as the neutral point of negotiation to go, well, is it serving the work? Is it not? Is it is the rest of the group going to be, you know, that sort of stuff. But it's a very neutral kind of place to bring to be that boundary point for behaviour that, and if you can allow that space and expense strategically too, when we map out a weekly schedule, particularly when working with kids, but again, just generally, I think is we we allow there's a start time for the class, but we sort and we start pretty much on time, but for the five or ten minutes when people are arriving, um, it's just turn the boom box on and let them run around and scream and let them play chassis. Let them play chassis, just burn off for ten minutes, talk it off, and then again, right on the time, you can go, okay, that's time, and you call it and you go, now we're locking in for work, and you do that repeatedly, and it starts to become a rhythm and a lived pattern of yeah, we have space, you know, a lived experience of yeah, we have space to run a mark, but then there's a point where we go, right, lock in.

SPEAKER_04 47:20

And they do want to lock in. What's the objective today? Yeah, what are we doing?

SPEAKER_01 47:24

Yeah, so you're starting to create a kind of um work a workroom environment, a ritual pattern, a ritual pattern that uh reinforces and establishes boundaries, and it creates a framework to focus energy and intent.

SPEAKER_04 47:42

Um I can hear some of our listeners, if there are any out there, saying, Okay, that's really great. So, what about when a kid's behavior is actually disruptive and it's just making everything stall and making everything last longer? Yeah. Okay. In that case, you actually have to drop all the bullshit, speak to the uh person in question, and let's say, I mean, I've done this so many times. Let's say little Johnny has um ADHD. He is a boy, his ADHD is very hyperactive. Um, you do notice though, there's a couple of boys that are always with him, and they're always kind of getting the giggles and egging him on, and he always ends up being the one that gets called out because he's he peaks more than they do. So you sit him down and you say, Hey, Johnny, I'm assuming, you know, he may not even know he's diagnosed, he may not be diagnosed, whatever. Johnny, do you struggle with like just really struggle with sitting still? Yeah, that's okay. That's cool. I can see that. Johnny, um, do you struggle with this? Do you struggle with that? How are you feeling about this? How are you feeling about that? Would you be okay if I actually, if we actually spoke to everyone about this? Because I can say you really want to be involved, but you keep getting distracted, and it's not very fair, and you shouldn't be getting all the blame. And we could all help each other here. Would that be good? Yes, it would actually. We're back in the circle. Okay, everyone, do you know what ADHD is? Most hands go up. Explanation. Um, give them a real understanding of the feeling of what it feels like, too, that it's not just like something Johnny does, it feels like something. It's hard for him, it hurts him. At the end of the night, he goes home and he cries, he feels shit because he didn't get to participate and he keeps getting in trouble. And he actually wants to do the show, and we can't do the show without him. So is it okay if you all egg him on? No. What could you do? And then we have this open discussion. All of a sudden, Johnny's got all these people supporting him. Johnny steps up, they step up. It's just like, and no one's asking Johnny to stop to change. We're asking the environment he's in to um recognize what's going on and be responsible for your part in it. That's it, really, and it's like a magic potion rather than just going, that bloody Johnny with ADHD just bounces around and the other kids can't. Spend half my class yelling at him. You spent one class, you gave him five minutes, you gave the cohort five minutes, within those ten minutes, you fixed it. You know? Um I think that is probably a method that that may even actually be frowned on in certain places. I mean, you certainly can't do it without the without the child's permission. But in this day and age where we know so many of us are neurodiverse as well.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Stepping back from the actual things you do or say a little bit, because like you say, they're going to be different depending on what you're doing. Oh, yeah, it was just an example. Workplace environments, people, you know, protocols, all the rest of it. Stepping back from that a little bit though, what we're still saying is that you're openly communicating in a respectful way about a problem that's inhibiting the work. So that's the problem. The work is still the benchmark for how behavior is dealt with. And by modeling a tolerant and openly transparent way of communicating or solving that problem in order to get back to the work is a way that kind of helps to deal with behavior in a bit of more of a neutral way. It's not a value judge, there's no value judgment of people's behaviour because um you know it's it it because value judgment ends up just being shame. And shame doesn't do anything in the room, does nothing in the room, it just stifles everything. Shame in the room is just stifles everything. You can't have it, so you've got to find a way of getting around it. Get around it, you acknowledge it, you put it in the light, you communicate with it, and you go, right, where and how does this fit in our objective of getting this work on, this project on? How does it work? How can we adapt to it? How can we use it? How can we where does it fit in that kind of map of how do we getting again getting back to the work of the project that performance outcome? And that that seems to be a way that helps again, like Nick's saying, it reinforces the ensemble adaptability and embracing of the differences within itself to to to harness its own energy.

SPEAKER_04 53:01

And even if you even if your background or your par you know, you're you're you've got kids who parent uh very differently, have very different points of views on certain things, it overrides any of that without discussion. It's about per it's just about human needs.

SPEAKER_01 53:19

If there are issues, you can talk about them outside of the rehearsal room after that.

SPEAKER_04 53:23

Okay, I really need to have a discussion about your attitude towards women or your attitude towards gay people, or maybe there is something like that, but at least you can even in the moment of when in the rehearsal room or workshop, you can just park that for a moment, get back to the work, maybe neutralize the the tensions in the room, and then afterwards, when you're finished, you can go, right, let's sit down and have a chat about this particular and as a caveat, I would also like to say that my first protocol is all as soon as I recognize that I I'm having I'm struggling with a certain cohort or a certain particular person in it. Um, not that I don't like them, just that I'm struggling to bring them in. The first thing I'll do is ask their parent or guardian what's going on. Is there anything I can do? Is there anything that would help me? Um, you know, and sometimes, quite often, they look me dead in the eye with hollow, tired faces and say, I have no idea. And that's okay too. But um often it's the key, just to ask the people guardian.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Find out the parents passed away suddenly, or someone's been in an accident or got a chance.

SPEAKER_04 54:41

You've just come out of foster care then in the last month.

SPEAKER_01 54:45

Who knows, whatever it is. And not not the you know, and even then it's none of your business, and it and it's and it's a personal thing, and you try you're actually trying to create a space where people can leave their worries behind in the rehearsal rooms and not bring it in. But it does actually help you to be a little bit more empathetic and aware of where people might be and why in a room.

SPEAKER_04 55:07

Um just yeah, keep your eye out.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

I mean, they're all and duty of care match, okay if it has been traumatic or anything like that.

SPEAKER_04 55:16

I remember there was this one kid uh I was actually teaching with my daughter in this case, and um oh, he was just oh, he was just hyper. He was so excited that he couldn't keep it together, right? And it wasn't that he was being rude or disrespectful, he just couldn't help himself going off like a firecracker. And at one point I looked at him and I said, Do you do you realize what you're doing? Or do you just have no control at all over your actions? And he stopped and looked at me and he said, No, I don't think I do have any control. And I literally packed up laughing and I said, Do you want some help? And he said, Yeah, maybe. And I'm like, Okay, you're my right hand man from now on. You just you're near me. And it wasn't a punishment. He ended up being like the ultimate goal kicker, like anything I needed, anything I want. He it he just needed, um he needed to channel that energy into the excess energy into a task, yeah, and into being needed to um being told exactly where to focus it. And he was incredible. Um, but yeah, sometimes just asking an open question and then and and actually wanting to know, not saying it to make the child feel bad, but saying it because you genuinely go, hang on.

SPEAKER_01 56:41

If you're a if you're a creative mind in the first place running all these classes, you wouldn't see it as a problem, you'd actually see it as an opportunity. Like, like in the case of the kid you're talking about, they become a really good assistant director slash stage manager type role. And they really sort of step into that behavior. They've got the mind for it, they understand it, they can communicate it, they can see, they can do things. You know, you discover that some some people are more uh they're they're better on stage just because of their magnetism or they want to they want to do whatever find people who are great at props or people who like doing um the set moving and things like that, like that if you're a creative type, you don't see you you would ideally not see a behavior, an example like you just gave as a problem that how do I shape, how do I wrangle this behavior of this kid into the role that I want them to do on stage? Maybe it's a case of adapting and going, actually, I've just found myself a really good stage manager. I don't need another person on stage if they're happy to be off stage doing these tasks because and they ended up hurting the sheep like your mustard. You know, so you you if you're a cre if you're a really creative type and you're working towards this again, working towards this outcome of a performance for the audience, you see and harness these differences, you know, you can find opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 58:07

The kid who wears headphones the entire way through your process, that's that's fine. It's because they're overwhelmed by stimulus and noise. Um it it's really interesting often when you uh you know you you can you can leave their headphones on, you can give them a scene that has no dialogue at all. Sometimes it's the best scene in the whole thing. Um it doesn't mean they can't participate. Sometimes there's um people that come to us and and they they really love theatre and they think they want to do acting, but they discover that they don't. They just really love theatre, and so it's lucky we're doing this whole process because hey, we've got costumes and we've got this and we've got that and we've got the other. And do you like taking pictures? And you know, there's so many options, and then all of a sudden, um, they're on their way, they're off, you know, and they're coming in with full sketches of costumes for each character in a week, you know. Like they didn't, it it was something to do with theatre. If you'd have stuck to the schedule, and if you had have gone, nope, all of the kids have to participate because that's the workshops. That's what this is about. That you know, they all have to be in the show, and that's my job. Like, then actually this kid would have never gone off and discovered that they're really good at design. So, yeah, or really good at photography.

SPEAKER_01 59:41

So that gets back to the work again. That's that boundary, that's that baseline, get back to the work, get back to the work. How can you contribute to the work with all working towards the show?

SPEAKER_04 59:51

That doesn't matter what your ability is.

SPEAKER_01 59:54

One of our favorite little theories and tactics, which is the tent peg theory, which is the idea that you arrive at camp with your group and it's in the middle of the night and it's raining, and everyone's wet and they want to get undercover and all the rest of it, and everyone's just you but you're the one in charge. The one in charge shouldn't be running around doing everything for people because they're complaining that it's raining. The one in charge should have a handful of tent pegs. You are you doing anything? No, here grab that tent peg, go bang it in over there. Are you doing anything? Grab that tent peg, go bang it in over there, and then once you've gone around, you go back around again. You finish with that tent peg, right? Here's another one, or here's something else. With the same same works with kids and these talents and these things that you discover, is you go, right, you're really good at that. Then I want you to go away and come up with some costume ideas for these people. You're really good at you write music. You write music, you play, you play the violin, right? Can you play uh practice this little piece that we're going to insert here? You're a singer, yeah. Right, you like choreography, right? You three go and what work out a next 32 counts to this piece of music, and you just keep going around and you're giving people tasks that they then have to contribute back into the performance. And it's a it's a it's the tent peg theory. You're not doing anything, but here that's your talent. Go away and use it and come up with something that we can use.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:14

It serves a double purpose too, because the whole time, let's imagine Mick doing this the whole time he's doing this, he's modeling. So by week six, we walk into a room and I don't ask them to set it up. When they are, they'll watch me. I'll one week I'll come in and I'll just start setting up where I want audience because I like to mess things up. And then after that, I won't have to ask anyone, Meek won't have to ask anyone. These these guys will have the space set up and ready to go by the time all the other cohort have arrived. When it comes to show days or anything like that, again, you don't have to ask. You've got kid after kid after kid coming up, going, is there anything I can do? Do you need help with anything? Do you want me to carry that from the car? It's they they have you've never asked them to do it. You've just modeled. Always being useful. And we all work together and we because we secretly, well not even secretly, we just busting to do a rehearsal. We we can't wait for the music to start. We just want that feeling again. Which is often why at the end of uh, you know, by the end of it we call them rehearsals, but they're all the workshops, you know. By week eight, seven, eight, nine, you know, they get to the end of rehearsing some bits and they just spontaneously start cheering and like you know, when you say cut, we're done, good work, gang, like spontaneously cheering, hugging, tears of joy. Um, and you know, six weeks ago they wouldn't have been near each other in a playground or they wouldn't have known each other from a bar of soap because they live in totally different areas. So beautiful stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:02

So conversely to that to that baseline of behavior management of the work and the show, the other thing we're kind of saying here is that any any praise, any, any um accolades, any um then there should be lots of positive energy all the time. There should be lots of positive feedback about what everyone's doing all the time.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:25

No matter how bad things are.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:26

No matter how bad it is, like even if it's terrible, then you have a great attempt. Like you put in the effort and you had a great attempt. Even if the product was failure, you put in an attempt and that's good. So everything should be positive and button.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:41

This is really exciting though, because we know we know it's not gonna work, so we've got time.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:46

This is where that boundary baseline works both ways, is because any positive um commentary like that is all based on the show as well. Great, you contributed to the show. That's awesome. You you held that moment of the performance really well, you played really well, you sung really well, you moved, you did that choreography really well in the show. Like all the praise, all the positive energy is is about that baseline of putting the project on and working towards that doing the work. And any behavior to that thing of behaviour management is it's not contributing to the work. It becomes that kind of spine of behaviour management both ways that that works. That that's what they because that's what you're saying by the end of it. Their behaviour is started to model around everything to get back to making this show. To the point where yeah, I want to make it work, I want to make it easy, I want to make it smooth, I want to make it this for the show, for the show, for the show, and they start to model that behaviour again in a positive way.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:47

Then you get to that point where you've got kids who've been around round the circle with you quite a few times, you know. Um I at one program I was doing for a long time, you could join anywhere between four and a half, and you didn't get turfed out till you were 13. So it was a fair chunk of years where I might have a certain few kids. And um, you know, once they get the process, they model their little butts off to everyone, like they know, they trust. Don't worry, Nikki and Mick have got it, you know, and Nick and Lil have got it, it's just is classic. Um, however, they always get to that point of um um they're so into it and they make all these cool friends, and then they make the mistake of like of interfering with rehearsal process because they've forgotten um to role model. And that's when you can go, hey, I actually have higher expectations for you to role model for these guys, like we did for you, and you're not doing a job because they're not seeing you do this for the show, they're not gonna do it for the show. I actually Need you to step up again. Take on that role, man. Like, and own it and share it and be kind with it. And they're like, and and they have this look of shame. And then we go, look, nothing to be ashamed of. Just step up, man. Come on. It's all about the show, is it not? And they're like, yeah, yeah. And we've got them back. You know, yeah. And they know they start to um and they start to draw that line between work and playtime. That's all we're asking of the older ones, uh, when they are in that position. Work and play. Show the difference. Don't don't mess the lines, because if you mess the lines, they're all gonna follow you. And then I look like bad cop just yelling at them, there's not gonna be a I can't do a show like this. You gotta help me out. Yeah. And that's on being honest again with your with the people you're working with.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:58

Probably a final bit of the mud map though, and this is really important, is that you need to have in any project, you work towards your project outcome. So this is all stuff that we've got. Your project outcome is the project outcome. You you sort of follow these sort of rules of thumb, and I guarantee you that the shows will be awesome, whatever they do. The audience will love them, whatever they do. So that and that's your that, like we said, that's the principal learning module of the whole project is the performance. They have to experience that lived ensemble capacity in that moment.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:38

In which case I would also highly recommend you do not do your performance outcome in the final week.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:44

Yes, because the last part of what I'm getting, yeah, exactly. How do you consolidate it? Is that the last piece of that that mud map is that you need to have so your performance should be the the week before the last week of the course. Because the last week of the course should be a kind of wrap-up, kind of like a cast party, but kind of a debrief. It needs to be a cathartic moment, like because we've found in the past if you do a show and then on the last day of the project and then stop, everyone leaves, and we all know that you get post-performance blues, and that's a bit of a shock to the system from that high to that low.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:22

But they don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:22

But they don't know what that is, they don't know how to process that, and so you can't leave them with that experience uh going out from this huge high and then nothing.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:32

It's like and having this family and ensemble with you that's now that you never see again.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:37

So it's really important to have your performance outcome the week prior to the final date, or you know, the not not on the last date of the actual project, but like just before, because you need to have that cathartic one, and it couldn't be it doesn't have to be anything formal. We sit down having food and something to drink is a winner. I mean, when we come together and we eat together, it you know bit of a bit of a cast party in the green room to get our reference back in. Totally cast party in the green room type environment where people can sort of chill out, hang out, share stories, say their goodbyes, swap numbers, and it sort of end the process, tie it up a bit. That's really important for the emotional journey of when you take a group of people on one of these projects. You have to tie it up. You can't just leave them hanging because then they'll not not know what to do with it.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:38

Well, the nature of this particular sort of teaching is that it it really does, it really does give them all sorts of strength, courage, safety, um, stability, uh, happiness that many of them have never experienced before. And self-growth and challenge, you know, like overcoming things, it's just all in ten weeks, you know, and ten hours. Ten hours, usually, like for a lot of them. And so and that is huge. Many adults don't actually even achieve that through therapy. And like the story you were saying about the actor who had never thought about the audience. It's you know, so these are pretty profound things to to engage in them. I do I do note that I have ex uh and very extensive years of experience and understanding and uh intuition that I can't teach someone else to have. But I do say um, yeah, trust trust, uh trust yourself, ask for help, don't go into situations where you're teaching and you're alone. God you didn't want to live through the cowboy years I did. Um, you know, where you're alone, where teachers go, oh thank God you're here, and then leave you with a cohort. You you really do need to look after yourself and know your limits and and make sure you've got the support around you to be able to even um contemplate introducing some of these more holistic ideas into teaching theatre and form the arts.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

There's probably one other ingredient that you probably need to have, and if you don't, if you don't have, you shouldn't be doing it, but you need to be having fun. If you're not having fun doing it, like if it's not fun, or you're not having moments of fun and enjoyment and like you're not playing with them anymore. If you're not playing as well, then yeah, it's kind of maybe don't be doing it. Yeah, you have to genuinely you have to be wanting to play and enjoying the mess and rolling around in it as much as anything else.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:01

Because play and having a sense of play is really, really valuable and being like not an adult going, oh, look funny little kid play, but an adult playing on their level, spinning and dancing with reckless abandon on hillside is is is what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

You've got to have your sound of music moment.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:24

Hell yeah. Honestly, in every single group I've ever worked with, I uh that it's yeah, I'm in that moment most of the time until I've got to get serious. But if you if you don't have that about you, it's gonna be a challenging process because this is not this is messy like painting, but with people.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:46

Lots to think about.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:48

Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:49

That's a bit of a mud map to some of the ways we've approached teaching and projects and directing generally. But uh yeah, so if you have any questions, you can always contact us.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:07

More than happy to chat.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:09

Um yeah, let's get back to our long weekend, shall we?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:15

I think it's time for a drink. Have a wonderful time, everyone, wherever you are in the world. Thanks for hanging out with us.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:22

See you next time.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:23

Ciao!