To work or to work?

What happens when a lifelong creative and anthropologist walks into an office job? Nikki interviews Mik on the shift from theatre/film life into local government community development through a library service — and the weirdness of being seen as an “exotic” species in office culture. They talk stability, post-COVID recalibration, AI-era creative whiplash, boundaries, and how to keep space for making work without sacrificing mental health. Less hustle mythology, more systems reality.

Transcript

Meet Nick and Mick

SPEAKER_01 0:02

Hi there, it's Mrs. Nikki Allen in the green room, and this week I am actually going to be interviewing my own husband, Mr. Michael Allen. And I'm going to be asking him all about a new adventure in his life. Moving from theatre into a new career. You might relate to it? Have a listen. We'd love you to join us.

SPEAKER_03 0:30

This podcast is recorded on the Ghana lands of the Adelaide Plains. We acknowledge the traditional owners of the lands, past, present, and emerging, and are grateful for the opportunity to share our story as part of the rich tapestry of stories that exist in this land. Okay, here we are, uh recording episode eight. Hi there. Um of Green Room with Nick and Mick. We are Nikki and Michael or Mick.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

I am a doctor of anthropology and uh been working with performing arts for the as an actor director in all things the last 35 years and Nikki is well I'm uh I started out as a dancer, uh professional dancer and dance teacher and moved into acting uh where I oh actually left dance um as a uh tertiary study and moved into acting and uh now I specialise in combination of uh movement and theatre and I specialise in working with young people, uh particularly neurodivergent and um disability and uh kids who are struggling in general is my bit of a specialty, uh working with that, making and creating theatre using physicality and theatre from all over the place. So also an actor, uh director, choreographer.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

So we've been working as a married and creative couple, both separately and together for the last 35 plus years between us, plus more.

SPEAKER_01 2:32

Through training and lots of shows, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:34

So this is our little podcast where we call the green room where we just sit down and chat about anything that happens to be on your mind as you do in a green room when you come across people and you've got downtime and you have a bit of a chat and you talk about what's going on in the world and what's happening. Um for those of you who are following us regularly, um we we we thank you, we thank that one person. Um it'll keep growing, um, and we appreciate it. It's been a couple of weeks since we posted the last one, and that's because there's been some changes and some developments in what's been going on with us.

SPEAKER_01 3:15

So as we say in Australia, there's been movement at the station.

SPEAKER_03 3:19

Absolutely. So uh we thought we'd we'd use this podcast episode. Um, I think the setup is Nikki's going to effectively kind of interview me.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

That's all right.

SPEAKER_03 3:31

Um, shall we give them a setup first?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Well, I'm gonna I'm gonna set this up for you so you can just sit back and answer the questions, which will be nice.

Why a Conventional Job

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Um, so recently Michael Hat Mick has engaged in uh in full-time work. Um, and it's not acting and theatre work. It is on this occasion a um everyday office job of sorts, uh, with some nice perks of connecting with community. And uh yeah, as as an actor myself who's had to uh do the long haul with a different career for a while, I recognise that these uh these are big shifts and they really challenge some of the beliefs about who we are, uh what we've created for ourselves, and that towers fall and things get rebuilt. It's a huge adjustment.

SPEAKER_03 4:27

So that there are points in every career where we're not always creative. We have we go off and do other things, and sometimes those things are small little shifts in different types of jobs, sometimes they're bigger. For me, in this particular one, I'm moving, I've moved out of teaching at the university sector, and now I'm working with a local government doing community and development through their um uh advocating their library service.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

So you just answered my first question. That's fantastic. He's good, isn't it? There you go.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Oh, there you go. Sorry. Um, no, no, that's lunch there.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

No, you didn't at all. You you're a perfect uh interviewer, interviewee. Um, my first question for you then is um that we've already established that you've you've got a very long career in directing, theatre, film, um, producing, touring, everything you can imagine pretty much, uh taking everything you can imagine to do with theatre. Um and so my first question is how long has it been since you've had a conservative, we're gonna say a conventional a conventional job outside of theatre?

SPEAKER_03 5:41

Um a conventional job outside of theatre. Probably the closest I could get to answering that is um working at the university as a tutor and lecturer, course coordinator, research assistant, course reviewer.

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Um what was that? I mean, how long were you doing that for?

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Well, I've been teaching there for about 15 years. Wow. Same course or no different courses all through anthropology at the University of Adelaide.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

And you got your uh doctorate through the university as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:30

Um but even then I would be hesitant to say that was a full conventional job because um the the nature of the university sector is pretty corporate cutthroat education and they have a massive casualization casualized pool of academics who do a great chunk of the grunt work there. And so even though that was a conventional job to all intents and purposes of working teaching at a university, um it it still was only in the the uh sort of category of a casual.

SPEAKER_01 7:09

So or or almost contract uh contract casual yeah, contract casual.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

So in in lots of ways it's it the the um employment environment uh uh was very similar to a gig economy that any artist would be aware of. You go from short-term contract to short-term contract, bit of this, bit of that, so over here. Sometimes you got a lot coming in, sometimes you got nothing coming in, then there's school holidays, that it was that kind of lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01 7:40

So similar to working in theatre.

SPEAKER_03 7:43

Yeah. Very but but conventional in terms of you know, I wasn't touring in sheds all over the country and performing in random locations and working in jails with people, and it was conventional in terms of I'm teaching in a lect I'm teaching at a university in a lecture hall and I'm marking essays, that kind of game.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Other than the people that you're dealing with, it's the same.

SPEAKER_03 8:07

Yeah. Yeah. This though is probably the first conventional job I've had in that it's still not full-time, it's permanent part-time. Because I'm working four days a week, and I'll get back to why I'm working four days a week later.

SPEAKER_02 8:22

Of course, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:24

But um this is payroll, this is leave accrued, you can take carers leave, and you can uh get holiday pay. Wow, the dream the yeah, stability, like finan the financial stability. So I remember we did a job is interesting too, but I'm sure we'll get to that later too. But yeah, but this is in that sense, getting back to your question, yes, this is probably what you what most people would consider a full conventional job.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

I would say the last time I would remember you working in a full conventional job was actually when you were managing knee high.

SPEAKER_03 9:06

Umfortunate. Yeah, that was a uh spectacle puppeteer company, giant, giant puppeteers.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Very well known, unfortunate.

SPEAKER_03 9:17

That was still what, I think maybe not even quite. I think it was two and a half days a week, and it was uh still effectively working in a gig grant-based economy. Still working in theatre, yeah, yeah. Still working with those sorts of people on those sorts of weird. This is this is all this is like I don't know if people have watched Parks and Recreation, the office. This is this is the closest I've ever worked in something that looks like one of those sort of um environments. Yeah, yeah. So I remember university had a certain level of kind of freedom to be teach the way you want, or yeah, and yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:00

You've got your office, but you don't have to be there most of the time. Um I remember uh a few podcasts ago, or maybe it was the last one, it's been a little bit as we said, um, there we did discuss that uh it it's quite hard when you're working in that gig economy. Um I I can cite many times where I've I've put my invoice in for some to a larger corporation uh as a contractor and uh got an email back after I was meant to be paid and didn't get paid saying, sorry, I'm on holiday for two weeks. And so you ring the corporation, they say, Oh well, payrolls on holiday for two weeks, and you're like, What? Are you all getting paid? Oh yeah. Well, because I get paid on a minute. Hang on a minute, yeah. And so um it is, and I remember often, you know, bemoaning that it it really sucks that you're you can't actually feed your kids and you have to ask for a favor or like beg and borrow from wherever while they're on holiday getting holiday pay.

SPEAKER_03 11:14

That's that volunteer vol volatility of contract. And I think anyone who works contract, I hear this in any industry that has contract, whether it's trade, services, whatever, anyone who's contract-based and self-employed contract-based, which is effectively what we are, whether we're teaching or acting or whatever, you're at the mercy of your client, really. Oh, of course, yeah. As as as some of our um own creditors are at the mercy of us, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:50

So um on that note, on that note, um, I've often uh had dreams and fantasized a little bit about what it might be about what it might be like to be on the other side of that fence. To be the one who gets the holiday pay. Um I would try and remember those contractors having lived here, but yeah, to be that one and being have you ever wanted to have a conventional job uh and uh have you ever wanted to be on the other side of that?

SPEAKER_03 12:26

Um that is an interesting question. Part of my motivation for pursuing a career or in this industry in the first place stemmed from a very beige, lower middle class uh upbringing of um my parents were of the silent generation, so very gender-based roles of responsibility in the house. Um to that in that and what was a real job and what wasn't?

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Uh uh dad was in the was a bank manager, so you know, step up from just being an accountant, but when Mick maybe half a step up, but when Mick Duck got his um PhD, his dad he told his dad, and his dad looked at him and said, Yeah, but you're not a real doctor, are you?

SPEAKER_03 13:20

Like as in a met as in a medical GP doctor.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

So yeah, that's the yeah. So you get the gist.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

So there there was a strong motivation to have a life that was the complete and utter opposite. I'm sorry, I've just realized my mic was. Oh, you've got the chest version of me. Yeah, you might have a chest version for the last five minutes or so. Um, so yeah, I was motivated to move away from a life completely that was that boring and conventional. Having said that, I think at 52 years old, I uh craved the financial stability. I I think I think too, things have changed. Like things are always changing, right? When I felt like I really wasn't ever chasing fame or fortune or anything like that. I just wanted to be a jobbing actor, a jobbing per jobbing worker in the industry. It's really all I was interested in. And I achieved that kind of stability for a lot of my career. Really, I was ticking over with commercials and voiceovers and bits here and bits there, and a bit of teaching. It was enough to get by.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

Yeah, you've got it's done pretty well, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

And then um things really changed with COVID, things really changed with the internet, and things really changed with AI. So now that whole sector where you would get your little jobs from local businesses who are doing local TV commercials and using local talent on local industry, all that that's just completely outsourced to AI, and you can get a voiceover from overseas, and there's stock footage, and there's stock this, and so all of that's really kind of changed. I think um also there's a little bit of the nature of the gig economy where there's there's two things that you've got to be good at your job, being an actor director or whatever. That's one part, but you've got to be good at getting jobs, and that's a different skill set.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Not only good at getting them, but I think you have to be out there, you have to be among the people that are doing the work.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

There are various reasons why that's been hasn't, you know, been good and bad. We have had swings and roundabouts there and that various stages of our career.

SPEAKER_01 15:37

It's great up to a certain age, but then it kind of becomes unviable if you want to have any other life beyond chasing theatre.

SPEAKER_03 15:47

Or you get to a point where where you're you're being sought after, people are actually coming to you. And there's been moments like that when I was curating and creative developing with all the international work where that was kind of coming that way as well. But it's volatile, whatever it is, it's volatile. It's just volatile. You're either dependent on funding, you're dependent on clients and contracts and get not getting screwed in negotiation and people stealing your work. Um, you've got to you've got to dance like a monkey to people to prove that you know, so many times where you have to show a client that you can come up with the goods that they're asking for. To go above and beyond, and then they take your work, they say no to you hiring you, but they take your concept and give it to the cheap vendor that they found anyway. There's all that sort of shit, and I think I just got tired of that. All of that shit. So no, I've I've actually in minute. I was thinking about this last week because last week was my first week of work, and I was thinking about oh my god, have I become my dad? Have I become this

First Week Culture Shock

SPEAKER_03 16:57

working environment?

SPEAKER_01 16:58

This is my next uh question, really, which was what what sort of feelings and thoughts did you have in that lead up into that first week of work? In that transfer from career to career, or that transfer of work.

SPEAKER_03 17:16

I definitely for the week okay, so the the job is the job was meant to start six weeks ago, but it's been delayed for various reasons. Namely, that um I've accumulated so many um ailments over my 52 laps around the sun that they need to do install special desks and all sorts of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Don't get us wrong, Michael's actually fit very physically fit and all the rest of it, but he was extraordinarily honest with every injury he's ever had on his um medical form, medical check. And um it's a mate. People, can I tell you how many people have looked at us and like industry professionals have looked at us and gone, why did you tell them that? Like I've got a disability, but I don't tell them because it makes it too complex.

SPEAKER_03 18:01

Okay, so this is one of the the first learning curves I'm finding is you don't tell anyone you don't absolutely need to. And I was trying to be completely transparent, like again, like anyway, learn lesson learn.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

So well, I don't think it was a bad thing, except for the fact that it delayed a few things and it wasn't a bad thing.

SPEAKER_03 18:20

But it has created in those weeks that I've been waiting for the job and it keeps getting pushed back, it has created this delayed sense of transition as you were talking about. A vacuum. Right. Um I'm going to work next week to answer your question. Oh, I'm going to work two weeks from now to answer your question. I'm like, it's just been delayed. So there's okay, so the transition is to get back to your question. Oh God. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Thoughts and feelings leading up to that transition from one place of being to another place of being in the mind.

SPEAKER_03 18:53

There's been various lots of them, as you can imagine. There has been a there's been a tangible sense of kind of making it to somewhere, like making it to somewhere with like with that stability of income and leave and holiday pay and all the perks and all the rest of it of actually having a fucking job and everything being taken care of. There's a there's a feeling of kind of oh fuck, I made it. I made it home base, I made it somewhere. I got I got I landed one, I got one, right. I mean, I don't know if it's my uh I don't know I don't know where I'll I still don't know. I've still got a lot of my career left. I I'm not which okay, which leads to another which leads to another thought of like, is this the end of like you know, you kind of go, right, is this what I do until I die and retire? No, I don't think so, especially in a modern working environment anyway. No one has that that doesn't change that, you know, it'll change, it'll develop, might stay, it might might go up, might go down, might go sideways, who knows? I don't know. But whatever, I've kind of got myself in a system now, and that creates it, it feels like a space where I can create a landing pad and just create some stability to that end, which is why I made a conscious decision. I was offered five days a week, but I only took four because I really didn't want to go straight back from this gypsy lifestyle that we've had of work straight into the fucking rigmarole and the the confinement of five days a week. I still wanted a day for my plus, it's good to have a day for yourself to do and stuff for yourself anyway. But I'm also using that day to do things like exactly what we're doing now and create a podcast. Yeah, and to keep creative, I've got um, I haven't mentioned this on the podcast yet, but I've got my website and I've got my course up there. I've developed the first module of a course. I want to develop more modules over the next few months.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

We'll come back to this. Come back for that.

SPEAKER_03 20:57

So I deliberately kept a day free that I could keep my hand in somehow, even if I'm not out producing a play or writing something or directing something or performing or anything. I can keep my hand in at some kind of creative work. Plus, I've also the job itself is also right in my wheelhouse. It's it's cultural analysis and developing applied practices to help the civic awareness of local government libraries, which is a huge and I I said in the interview, I'm looking for a job where I can have some tangible effect on real people's lives and not be lost in a fucking ivory tower. All right.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

So yeah, anyway, what was your biggest challenge in the very sorry, you're you're yeah, I'm gonna stick to because I've got questions that talk to that, that's all. Um, what was the biggest challenge in that first week of work for you?

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Social awareness. Um like like we just touched on with being too transparent about health conditions. It made me realise that the type of work that we've been involved in all our lives has always the the emotions and and vulnerability and passion and all of those things, they're the raw material of what you need to be in a creative space. And that creates a way of being with people, talking. Um it it makes you a sort of person who volunteers to your tool base as a as a worker, yeah. But in this environment it is absolutely not that. And so I guess it's trying to f it's real it's trying to navigate you don't want to shut yourself down and lose your own identity. You want to stay true to who you are. Um, but you don't but not every space is appropriate. Every space is appropriate and not everyone's gonna respond that way. You're dealing with people who are lifetime civil servants. They're not going to just suddenly adapt to your zany, crazy, kooky. And to be quite frank, I don't want to be that person in the office anyway. I don't want to be the zany kooky person. You know what I mean? Like I think so. The first week for me is has been a lot about you get a first week to m you get a first chance to and to be the go-to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Here goes.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

The first week for me has been about okay, I've got to I've got to navigate that space between this is someone else's work space. This is a whole culture of a workspace here that's local government and bureaucracy, and I'm not. But I kind of am through university, but even then it's different. There's um so there's that.

SPEAKER_01 24:13

You you uh you said something the other day. You were actually answering our eldest daughter who was asking a question about the work. Which one is that? And uh and um she and your response was um that's right, you were you were referring to what some people were doing, and that you went, nah, I'm not gonna actually volunteer for that. Um and she asked why, and you said, Well I I really do value what you I'm gonna paraphrase it, but what you were saying was that you really valued that feeling of being a go-to, the guy that someone thinks of when there's a problem, but not every problem. That you have a specialty of what you can uh and want you know of what you do, and you're not your specialty is not to fix everything or to solve everything or whatever, but but to specifically work on those things.

SPEAKER_04 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

And that making choices to have boundaries around that now that are gentle boundaries. I mean, it's not like you if someone asks you to help with something and you've got a moment and you know it feels like the right time to maybe socially contribute, but to actually, you know, make a stance. So it it wasn't about not wanting to do any other kind of work or being egotistical, it was about recognizing, well, I do like that feeling, I just don't like having that feeling as an overall thing because that ends up making me feel like the doormat and I don't like that. And I I thought that was really great, that was a really excellent um uh kind of outlook.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

Hmm. And then I think that's that's stuff that's come from that's stuff that's come from a lifetime to get to this point, really. I as we've often talked about when when I first, you know, was leaving school and was looking for a job, everyone keeps hassling, well you've got to be flexible and you gotta be adaptable and you've got to be this and you gotta be that. So I applied myself to that. I I learned how to do lighting, uh rig lighting, and plot lighting, and do and I do operation, I learned set construction, I became a carpenter, I learned dance, I learned acting, I learned production management, I learned stage management, I learned fucking everything. I just applied myself to anything and everything, producing. The problem is theatre, I thought that was a taking on that advice that was showing people, hey, look, I can do anything, I'm really employable. What it does though is like you say, anybody's you become an anybody's, you become a doorman, you become a because you haven't established that you're an actor and you wouldn't dare lift a light.

SPEAKER_01 27:10

And are you serious?

SPEAKER_03 27:12

And really, even even through even through a lot of my um when I was a lot of my teaching at university, that career of teaching I was telling you about, that was all while I was studying, while I was doing my master's, while I was doing my PhD. So you're in a weird position of being a student, but being a teacher at the same time, trying to prove yourself against international academia that you've got an original thought, trying to navigate the politics of a university environment where you feel like you're trying to outgame a system that you is working very hard to outgain, are you? And all I want to do is just stand in front of a group of people and just teach them shit and open up their brains and do stuff. You know, it just got too much. Um so I guess getting back to your question again, first week has been it has been a without trying to project too much, I've looked at things on Instagram about, you know, because I didn't know how to talk or how to engage with people in this office environment. I literally don't know how to do that. So I did find a few posts from people that said, you know, when when you know talk like this, or these are the these are the really good signs, or these are really good strategies to use in this environment. To sort of I I realize the first week has been about you only get one chance to make first impressions. And in those first impressions, I want to be someone who is amiable and easygoing and good company and non-threatening, uh, but you know, open and accessible and all the rest of it.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

But I also want to, like you say, set a kind of boundary around what you're open and accessible for making the coffee, not for your breakdown because we have HR for that.

SPEAKER_03 29:06

My my line manager the other day, and she was like, um, like we were sort of setting up messaging services and how is it and how we all communicate together and blah, all that sort of shit. And she was like, Uh oh, do you have an I uh an Apple Watch or like a smart watch? Um and I went, No, I don't. I don't wear a watch. I don't like a watch. I don't need an apple watch. Because she was talking about uh she was gonna go on to say, Oh, well, you just get the app on your phone and you can respond to it there and you do this and da-da-da.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Well, my app is on my phone, actually.

SPEAKER_03 29:40

No, no, no, on your phone on your watch. You can get them all on your watch.

SPEAKER_01 29:42

Like you do I'm sure you can get it on your phone too, though.

SPEAKER_03 29:45

Yeah, that's what I was saying. I'm like, I don't like wearing time on my body.

SPEAKER_01 29:49

Oh, yes, you don't. I know, I get that.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

I don't like having the concept that he never has, yeah. Time strapped to my body. I've got a phone, I can look at that. I don't want it strapped to my body. And that thought was an original thought to her.

SPEAKER_01 30:06

Um, I'm gonna talk to this a little bit more because I think those of us who've ever worked in theatre, anyone out there listening who's ever experienced this will really get it. Now, um, this social thing is is a it's a phenomenon. It is a thing. I don't know if anyone's ever done a study on it. I must look it up.

SPEAKER_04 30:25

Probably.

SPEAKER_01 30:26

The minute you tell someone you've ever worked in theatre, like even when I've noticed, if no one might know that I'm an actor, theatre worker. Yeah, that I've ever worked in performing arts or theatre, but I'm overhearing a conversation where someone's just basically said they're into amateur theatre. The demeanour around them suddenly changes and everyone starts treating them like there's some sort of allure in the taboo of having chosen such a gypsy, brave, scary, crazy, out there kind of choice, which instantly puts you in the category of taboo, alluring. You are you are now oriental, let's just say exotic.

SPEAKER_03 31:10

Yeah, it's like you're exotic. You are an exotic individual in a very stale environment.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

That's right. And from that moment on, they they start shaping a different image of you, and they start talking to you differently, and they start treating you differently, and they start going at you and stuff, and you're like, uh-huh, uh-huh. What is going on here? Now, I I see this happen many, many times, and I can see where its reversal happens. So when we were when we had young children and they were in early school, I decided to give in and become a part of the whole like school mum community. Meet these people and hang out with them. And what I discovered, and they all treated me like I was the woo one, you know, like because I, you know, I might I might like to relax every now and then. Flamboyant. You're a little bit flamboyant.

SPEAKER_03 32:06

You were more flamboyant.

SPEAKER_01 32:07

More flamboyant, dressed as I'd wanted to dress.

SPEAKER_03 32:10

You weren't divorced, you weren't miserable.

SPEAKER_01 32:13

No, no, look, it like you know, I I cannot do anything but be a hundred percent authentic. So that's just who I am.

SPEAKER_03 32:22

Because you embrace in your personality, in your in your personhood, you embrace all these elements of your life, your sexuality, your intellect, your emotional components. And on our side, which you wear it all on your sleeve, and we wear it all on our sleeve again because it's part of our work, part of our environment and our craft and our life and what we want to. And then to walk into this space, like just thinking about that.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

And I've seen it happen when we're teaching together, yeah, and someone discovers someone who's above us in uh like who is our line manager, right? Has discovered you're a doctor. And the week after that, they're like, they're nervous and they're freaked out and they're jumping around. Is there anything I can do? And I'm like, okay, you just figured out he's a doctor. And both of us will drive home and we'll both clock it. That was the doctor reaction. So there's the actor reaction, there's the doctor reaction. If you tell them you're a director, then they want to know all the behind-the-scenes things and what you've seen.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

But you know what? Day one of the job. Fascinating. Day one of the job, there's a history festival coming up, and they're gonna do a little walk around of the suburb and show sort of various points of interest for people and blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

So they were doing a kind of this relates to my next question, which I'm gonna ask you quickly. Ask you now has your career in theatre shaped the way you think comparatively to your work colleagues and the way they think in a workplace?

SPEAKER_03 34:02

Well, I can't really okay, to be fair, I don't think I can answer that question yet. But this is because I don't know yet. Well, this I'm just saying that on day one, we did a walk, right? And it look, it wasn't even a dress rehearsal, it was really just a walk around, and the guy running it or organizing, the guys coordinating it, they were really just invited us along to go. This is the potential walk we're looking at, these are the potential sites we're looking at. It wasn't a dress rehearsal, it wasn't script, it wasn't anything apart from that, right? But before we even and this this is literally in the first 30 minutes of me being on the job where I was in a car driving to this location and meeting with history walk. Great, cool. I love a history walk, big fan, not a problem, suits me fine, and a great introduction to the suburb because it's a quaint old suburb of Adelaide, it's got a lot of uh colonial history anyway.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

Oh, yeah, it's gorgeous. Leaf the greens.

SPEAKER_03 35:07

So anyway, but but I was introduced as because I was being introduced to all these people for the first time, first half an hour on the job, right? Literally being introduced for the first time to these people in the new job and the position. I was being I found I was being introduced, and and fair enough, because you've got to tell people your background and where you're from and all the rest of it, but inevitably our performing arts background comes up. So all of a sudden, there was this frisson in the group where it was like, oh, suddenly I feel like I'm on show and I'm being judged.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

Like I'm on did they act actually say sorry to interrupt. You never said what they said. Did they introduce how did they introduce you? You never actually saw it.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Sorry, okay, they introduced me as as someone who comes from a performing arts background, so probably it'd be a really good person to bounce this. But in their hands, they might just be thinking amateur theatre or no, no, no, because they know I'm a doctor and blah blah blah blah blah and they know all about that. So all of a sudden there's a frish song that goes through the group, and the guy who was originally just doing a walk around suddenly feels you can just feel it, you can sense it, you know it. You've been around it enough to know there's the kind of anticipation

First Impressions and Feedback

SPEAKER_03 36:24

that comes. To be fair, she didn't introduce me in a way that put me on a pedestal. Well, kind of did put me on a little bit of a pedestal, but but wasn't trying to.

SPEAKER_01 36:34

You can let people do it automatically, you know. Like, yeah, it wasn't done in a malicious way, it was just done. But it happens and the switches done. Yeah, I hear that.

SPEAKER_03 36:44

And anyway, so we walked around, and then and then the next day, like at the end of the walk, the one of the guys says to us, Oh, well, if you've got any feedback, we'd love to hear it. And I'm like, Yeah, cool, no worries, you know. And it's like day one, and you're just getting fucking inundated with people and systems and infrastructure and fucking locations and fog keys, and like you're like, yeah, sure, whatever. Like, I'll give you some feedback. Literally, the next day when I sat and got into the office again, he he I got an email from him saying if you have any feedback. So I happened to be with my line manager at the time. So I said, okay, what tell me what you thought about. You're the line manager, you're the one that employed me because you're not happy with the way the things are at the moment. So, based on that, and these are people who have been with counsel fucking a lot longer than me, right? What did you think in terms of what you're trying to achieve? So she gave me her feedback, and I had my own thoughts as well. So I jotted that down in what I thought was an email, but in a quick email, but it invariably turns out into about an essay eight bullet points. Tried to keep them simple, sent them through, said, Hey man, like take it or leave it, do what you want. That was the thing. So, anyway, I've forgotten what we're talking about because there's a nature of rambling. Um, yeah, that's all right. That was an interesting point on day one. I think like I I guess getting back to this sort of first impression kind of thing, the I'm trying to find that bound, and the first impressions really go for the first month, I think. You know, it's gonna I and I'm on probation for like three months, and then another three after that. I am trying to sort of recognise the fact that my uh, you know, even if you're not playing into it, just by virtue of the fact of who I am and how I've lived my life the past 30, 40 years, I'm going to be seen as exotic to these people. Are you? And it's trying to find a balance of using that as a kind of opportunity to create a boundary or a certain I'm you know, just trying to establish who I am. I'm I'm the researcher, I'm trying to sort of, you know, I want to get out of all manual labour if I can possibly help it. So I'm trying to just sort of sit quietly at my desk, keep posting things that are about research, findings I've had and ideas I've

Probation and Bureaucracy

SPEAKER_03 39:09

had.

SPEAKER_01 39:10

Um, so uh just because we don't want this to take forever and go back over ground. Like I hadn't asked, I hadn't planned to ask you this, but this sounds uh very like uh an audition, like the way you're talking about it seems as though you feel like you're on um on pro on probation for three months equals auditioning for three months. Where do yeah, and that is what I remember going into the workforce and saying I wasn't gonna do that, but my inherent behavioral instincts won over. How how is that going that that line between the two? Because I I know I struggled.

SPEAKER_03 39:54

I think in this case the probation is is referring to things like look, I'm not gonna be there for a week and then take three days off and leave.

SPEAKER_01 40:07

Like and and the first time.

SPEAKER_03 40:08

Or I'm not gonna keep rocking up late and I'm not gonna keep knocking off early. Or I'm not gonna be not produce I mean I don't have any KPIs or any obligations to produce anything with any time frame, which is a unique freedom. Definitely have a deadline like that um so that's okay, but by the same token, I I can't help myself. I've already posted a few things on the team chats and all the rest of it that are a few noodling ideas and concepts and already got good feedback from it. So I think in this case, probation is more about you're not going to exploit the system or rip them all.

SPEAKER_01 40:51

I mean I mean what's so much about what you were speaking to in terms of making you know that the next three months is about making good first impressions with everyone and making sure that they're I think it's a little bit like first day of rehearsal.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

You know, it's a little bit like first day or first week of rehearsal, you know, when you jump straight into a a play with a cast you've never met before, and all of a sudden you're doing scenes where you're arguing with someone or in a passionate embrace with someone and you only met them that morning at the table read.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

It's a little bit really it's that intense, though.

SPEAKER_03 41:27

No, I'm just saying, I'm just saying it's a little no, I'm just saying it's a little bit kind of I didn't know council work was so raunchy. No, I'm just saying it's a little bit awkward. It takes you a week or so to feel each other out and to see where people you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 41:44

I know you know you go raunchy and he talks about feeling people out. I don't know what's going on there.

SPEAKER_03 41:48

You know, it's just that. Like I met like I'm playing.

SPEAKER_01 41:52

Yeah, I know what you mean. I'm sure our listeners are fully aware what you mean. I'm just a rat bate.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

I met my direct general manager who's you know, two or three positions above me, and he's the sort of you know, you've got to remember too, this is a hierarchical employment system, and the working environment that we're used to are are more ensemble-based.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Uh so I mean to some degree run by the hierarchy, though.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Yeah, everyone's still got their responsibilities, but the the creative version of theatre.

SPEAKER_01 42:25

If you're talking about high theatre, then they're all hierarchied too.

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Still, when you're in the room, when you're on the floor in the rehearsal room, you've got to be working the stage manager, designer, everyone comes together in an ensemble working environment. I'm just saying, generally speaking, to make the best of what the hierarchy have offered you over the course of our careers, right? How we work in the room and on the floor isn't as an ensemble-based kind of process.

SPEAKER_01 42:53

Absolutely, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:54

This is not that. Right? No, and we're not a team of merry men. And not only is this not that, merry people, the people who are who are there and who have been there forever, and even if they haven't been in this particular role for long, they've been in this sector and this in working environment, career environment all their life. They operate on a so one of my colleagues was very intimidated by meeting all the executive team the other day. In fact, they were they they were uh thinking about whether they'd wanted to continue with the position.

SPEAKER_01 43:30

What was so terrifying about the executives?

SPEAKER_03 43:33

Because they because their working environment had been as a sort of uh frontline worker of social service care. Um and they knew that their their most of their career had been because of decisions made by executives. But here they were in a room with executives with people.

SPEAKER_01 43:55

And if you're not dressed the right way, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:57

Yeah, exactly. And it really intimidated them, right? Fair enough. I I that doesn't intimidate me. It may be partly because I'm a white male, white middle-aged male, that's definitely got something to do.

SPEAKER_01 44:09

I was gonna say if it was a female, then I kind of get the entire basic. So there's lots of context. That would be hard to fathom.

SPEAKER_03 44:15

Lots of context going on here, and you can't separate them cleanly. Not at all. Um, but but regardless, um, I mean, having you know, I mean, I've worked for the Saudis, I've worked with for Harrods, I've worked for film companies in America, I've worked for, you know, oh my god, um whatever it is that play that fucking shopping strip in LA. I mean, like the that kind of authority doesn't bother me so much because our working environment is generally is at the end of the day, we need to work as an ensemble, or you don't get the product that you're trying to fucking want from me anyway. So I guess I'm just trying to also not I'm trying to adapt to the working culture and environment that's exists and trying to understand it. I'm also trying to say, hey, I appreciate the culture that exists and I'm trying to work with it, but I've actually been asked to come in and do this job because I don't think that way. Oh I know I'm outside the box. That's exactly why I'm here. So I guess that's what I mean by first impressions. If that's the case, I know whatever I'm gonna do, just by virtue of who I am and what my job is, I'm going to be seen as exotic, as maybe making waves, ruffling feathers, working, you know, really inane things like not wearing a watch. You know, like it can be from the inane to the broad. And that's um that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

It's not I'm not I I think that um I think that it's um like uh for me, I have a very strong humanitarian uh social justice um element to a lot of my work, and for me, that would be like a red flag to a bull. So I'd be uh totally interested in uh wanting to know more about how the council is exactly managing lots of different interesting factors of humanity and whether they're not and how fascinating, and what a great opportunity! And in that sense, is there any potential opportunities do you think maybe to to promote change or collaboration or anything that you're really excited about potential opportunity that you might contribute to within the job? Is there a little bit of a bubble even after your first week of like, yeah, it's you know, I could do something really good?

SPEAKER_03 46:50

Yeah, definitely, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, not getting ahead of myself, not getting ahead of myself, and I wasn't trying to work on the job before I started, but obviously. It's really hard for Michael to not do some looking around.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

That's right, it's in your nature to get some ideas.

SPEAKER_03 47:10

I think, and this is where okay also learn your battleground too, you know. This is where the crossover between our industries and their career in a positive way careers are are really interesting, right? Because as workers in the creative performing arts, blah blah blah blah, whatever, right? We are a gig economy. We work to projects. Projects have a per have an outcome. And it could be opening night, it could be exhibition night, it could be uh race night, it could be whatever. You're working, you can't change opening night is open. I'm gonna stick with opening night for the moment.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

You're gonna get the fire stoked and then it burns bright.

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Opening night, it goes out. Opening night is opening night. It's fixed, it doesn't change. You need that's your deadline, you have to be working towards that, and it shapes how you build something because you have an outcome and a thing that you have to get to, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:12

And we've talked to this in past episodes of talking about time and how you build these structures, so check it out.

SPEAKER_03 48:20

It shapes your motivation and your action, right? Now, that is something that doesn't inherently exist in long sustained bureaucratic systems, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:37

They're they don't work to that kind of so this is another sort of like big difference between working in theatre and how your own. This was the question I was asking about.

SPEAKER_03 48:56

So it takes as long as it takes.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Those differences between, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

So the principal part of the job is to reinvigorate and to make meaningful connection with the count local government library service and the community it serves. Because up till now the library has been nothing more than, oh, well, it's in the public good, we don't really know why, and we'll just do it. But it's kind of got no direction. This is what libraries do, and that's it. Yeah. Yeah. And subsequently the things that are being offered are kind of random and all over the place and have no real sort of cohesion and yeah, there's lots of varying events at libraries that you kind of go, well, so where this is an interesting plan is that I don't want to put like I don't want to, and I can't work in the way that we've normally work in and go, here's opening night, and we have to reach this deadline by then.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

Well, is that frustrating?

SPEAKER_03 49:56

Right. It it is, but this is the therein lies the challenge. Yeah. I've so I've got to kind of find a way to generate that kind of um thinking per perception or thinking without actually having a fucking deadline that puts pressure on people.

SPEAKER_01 50:13

But it has to come to an embedded.

SPEAKER_03 50:14

But it has, but anything that we're doing is working towards an outcome that you improve.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 50:22

So that's therein lies the crein lies the for me, the creative challenge. How do you how and I've got and what and what I've got to work with in that creative challenge is a community, is a local government constituency of 50,000 people and an infrastructure and a bureaucracy and an administration and departments. And I know I'm only I'm only meant to be working with a specific focus of the library, and I will be only working for the specific focus of the library. But who runs the library? Who runs the library and how does it all interconnect? And that's where the magic for me. I'm starting to see the creativity of part of it, part of it goes. That hey, I'm just a dude from the library and I'm trying to improve this, but I need to use the entire machinery of the council and all its services to do. Bring the cogs into a nice machine. And if I can do that, you know, I've got a secret goal. I do have a secret objective. And I don't want to get too a lot of it's still in my head, and I don't want to examine it.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

So we'll call it a beautiful pipe dream for now that may become potentially.

SPEAKER_03 51:32

I would love has has guns. I would love the library to and it's and and what we do with it and how we program it and shake it up to at the end of maybe two or three years spit out a twenty-something year old new councillor on the council. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

A younger person on the council.

SPEAKER_03 52:01

A younger person on the council who's been politically activated through their local community. Oh, I'm not sure. I haven't I haven't had a chance to really do that yet.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Because I kind of got the idea that there actually are quite a lot of young people on a lot of your councils.

SPEAKER_03 52:20

Okay. I don't know, and I can't say, so I'm not going to speculate. I'm talking about someone who came up through the ranks of library activities and activations and the sense of community and cultural cohesion that we're going to try and create through the library service. Someone who comes through that funnel.

SPEAKER_01 52:41

Yeah, right, right. I get that.

SPEAKER_03 52:44

That someone is not saying they want to be a counsellor because they're another small business owner and they've got to be able to do it. I think they've represented and they've got agendas. Yeah. Someone who came through the system and the activations and the cultural environment that the library creates and was maybe motivated to bring all the pieces together.

SPEAKER_01 52:59

To bring all that together and go so the machine can all click into place instead of operating independently and all over the place.

SPEAKER_03 53:06

So that the library, the library becomes the keystone to this social this social cohesion between representation and education and activation and you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 53:17

And I think lots of sorry, generally I think individual councils are kind of trying to do that, but they're trying to do it in one space or another, and I and it doesn't quite all click.

SPEAKER_03 53:28

Well, that is A, why you need a cultural anthropologist, and B one who has worked in applied anthropology in a in a practice-based technical pro career for 35 years and can combine the two together very do this.

SPEAKER_01 53:47

Very exciting.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

Hello. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Well, I am actually so excited to hear that you you are genuinely um have got scope, vision, and that you also have made that adjustment into a world that seems to be a whole lot slower than the world that you've come from.

SPEAKER_03 54:08

Pace,

Theater Boundaries and Wrap

SPEAKER_03 54:09

yes, slower and pace is definitely probably keywords that are.

SPEAKER_01 54:13

My my last question is do you still want to work in theatre? And if so, why? And what does that look like for you?

SPEAKER_03 54:23

Uh yes, I absolutely want to work in theatre. Making theatre is the absolute thing I would love to always fucking do. Closely followed by film, but only in front of the camera.

SPEAKER_01 54:36

Oh god, so boring. Yes, making theatre. Front and centre.

SPEAKER_03 54:42

Front and centre, first and foremost. Brilliant. We love it. Drop or drop everything at the uh if I if all the stars aligned to practice theatre and to keep doing it.

SPEAKER_01 54:54

Let's be honest, if you if you manage to bag a pretty good role in a movie, it would be worth more than this job in a year, really.

SPEAKER_03 55:03

Totally.

SPEAKER_01 55:04

Um so look, when theatre comes in as an advocate, when theatre comes in, well, performing arts in general.

SPEAKER_03 55:12

Theatre is my craft, theatre is my art, theatre is my self-expression. I don't paint, I don't write music, I don't play music, I don't do any of that sort of stuff. Theatre is self-expression, which is say that you couldn't. Which is why that show we did a few years ago was so valuable as a form of self-expression and creativity and get all of that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

Yeah, yeah. We should we're gonna do a full podcast on this.

SPEAKER_03 55:39

Um yeah, we probably should one day. We'll chalk it down on one of the list of things. But yeah, look, I I I would give up everything for theatre if if theatre look if I live could support me. Like I said, I'm not looking for fame, I'm just looking to work. And where it just so happens that where we live, where we have decided to lay down roots for other reasons, family and lifestyle and all the rest of it, and opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 56:08

Small cool, small opportunity. It is, it is and well-guarded ponds.

SPEAKER_03 56:14

Is it possible to maintain that career, a career in that alone?

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Oh, yeah, look, a few have done it, but not for their whole career, and and you know, where's their super, etc. etc. So, you know, it's tough out there for that, and even tougher today.

SPEAKER_03 56:34

So to answer your question, yes, I absolutely do want to do theatre.

SPEAKER_01 56:40

And that that is conditions and producing work or I don't think I want to perform anymore.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

Totally fair. Directing would be nice. I totally relate. I don't want to produce anymore, just directing would be nice.

SPEAKER_01 56:53

And if not, a nice film, if anyone's listening, be great.

SPEAKER_03 56:59

The conditions would have to be right. It it can't cost me anything, and I don't even mean cost me in terms of money, I mean it can't cost my sanity, it can't cost my emotional well-being, it can't cost me. Well then also the other chances of me doing it any time soon are probably pretty slim. So, but this is creative, this is creative on a whole fucking cultural level. This is creative on a whole nother scale again.

SPEAKER_01 57:34

Using a much bigger paintbrush now. I must say that we've all oh totally, it's a great answer. And and we have spoken to that before as well. Like that um for us too, because we are a married couple who are both performers and both supporting a family. Um, you know, even a big film, it would have to pay really bloody well. Because let's consider how um well how I would look after two kids and the kids. I mean, this is what I'm saying, it would have to pay really well because you've got to consider not only oh, I might be leaving this job, but also and that it might it, yeah, they have no obligation to keep it for you. And uh so when I come back, I have nothing for I don't know how long till I get another job, and in the meantime, my wife can't work because she's gotta look after the kids full time because I'm gonna be in I don't know, wherever. I don't know Venezuela. I love saying Venezuela, I just say that. And uh yeah, and so these are really complicated decisions, generally speaking, when you are living in a um in a situation where you have a family and you both actually work in theatre.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

Well would we do it? Probably we'd find a way because we do recognise who we both really are in terms of that.

SPEAKER_03 59:11

I was gonna say that in some ways, because I am pursuing um age active representation again. Oh yeah, if anyone's listening.

SPEAKER_04 59:23

I didn't even think about that.

SPEAKER_03 59:26

In some ways I feel like this new job helps me with some of that.

SPEAKER_02 59:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:35

I think represents a chance to kind of again setting these sort of boundaries, go, well, yes, I am interested in doing that kind of work. But I'm not gonna fucking just jump at anything because I got other stuff now. It's gotta be worth it. And the I'm worth it. I'm worth it and the job's gotta be worth it. And if those things don't align, then no, I won't be inter I'm not just gonna take a a day doing this or a half a day doing that, or what like no, it's I'm not gonna fucking risk this in order for that. If you want me, then it's gotta be worth it. So I actually feel a little bit more empowered.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

Because you know what your bottom line is, you're not just a bottomless cup.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:22

Yeah, I'm and I'm in that sense, I'm shifting from that idea I had in my early working career of just be fucking flexible and be able to do anything for anyone, and you'll get a work you'll get work somewhere too going, yeah. No, these are my boundaries, this is what I am prepared to do, what I'm not prepared to do.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:45

Did it feel a bit scary shifting into that gear? Like, did you feel a bit uh I don't know, it's been four days. It's it's No, I mean uh in terms of how you feel about acting like in the future and uh opportunities like that.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:01

Yeah, like I said, I'm not interested in theatre performing anymore anyway. I just don't like living with characters that long anymore. Um I mean I love performing on stage and I'm comfortable public speaking, but I don't want to live a character for six months anymore, which is why I prefer film and TV now. Um so yeah, I think I'm just even in that sense, even in that space, I'm I'm being more discerning about what I what I choose to do and what it means to me when I make that choice rather than just yep, I'll do it, yep, I'll do it, yep, I'll do it, yep, I'll do it. And not exactly. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Yeah, I guess I just mean in the back of your head, was there any fear that like that the um industry might abandon you having made that decision to not be in anybody's for any job or anything?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:07

Or do you feel like that actually I think I came to terms with that aspect a long time ago because you can be you can fucking there's no reward for merit in this industry. It really isn't. It doesn't matter if and and I know this because I've I've done I've produced a direct and sold out seasons, and you still have to fight like you're a early graduate looking freaky. No, I no, that doesn't bother me. The the career that you're gonna do.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:38

Yeah, like you've got to prove yourself. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:40

I think I already have.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:43

And it really doesn't matter how much you think you are trying to prove yourself, it doesn't matter a lick of difference anyway. You know, sorry I can't cast you because you you've got blonde eye blonde hair instead of dark hair. Sorry, I can't cast you because you're too short, you're too tall.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:57

I don't want to be your age and I've already got a dozen uh so many women that look like you're like, so I don't I'm not I'm not they don't act like me.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:05

I think I think like I've we've I've mentioned it to you before. I think of it now as like you just gotta have your lotto ticket in. It's not that you can't do the job, it's not that you don't want to do the job, but I think let's let's let's drop any pretension that you have any fucking meaningful control over your career trajectory. Oh yeah, it's totally fucking random. And in that sense, just embrace it. Have your have an agent, have be on your on all the websites and all the stuff. Take over your life. Do all that, have your ticket in the lotto drawer every week, don't see if you get lucky.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

I think it's an attract.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:46

Stick your fishing rod in the water and see what happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

Yeah, if you don't have a lure in, they won't come at all. Exactly. Don't chase the fish. You just keep scaring them off. It's a great metaphor.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:56

So that's kind of where I'm at with that, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

Well, I really hope that our listeners get a whole heap out of um the very earnest um sharing of uh such a huge step in someone's life at this point in time. I'm hugely excited for you to continue this journey, and I'm sure we'll hear bits and pieces as we go.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:21

And um and we've got a heap of ideas for new episodes. We're gonna talk about the art that show, and there's a whole heap of other stuff in there.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:30

We're gonna be doing a few different episodes definitely. We're gonna be talking about um a new idea around um what do we call it? Board room. No. What's it called? Um what we did, the little intimate time. Oh god, I can't believe I was thinking boardroom. Parlour play theatre is is a thing from way back. And uh Mick and I have got a really interesting little twist we'd love to talk about that we've worked on in that. It was hugely successful. Also want to talk about a few different actor things, so um, embodiment and and acting and the line between the two of them from an anthropological, anthropological, god I love that word, but I hate it, um, level. But also, but also from a lived theatre, um, an actor perspective. We also want to have an episode where we share our absolute most hysterical stories about teaching.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:36

I think um, I think two things I want to add to before we sign off is that one of the things that might end up coming from this new role is well, there is there's a new rhythm to life, like working hours and social hours and domestic hours, and there's a new rhythm to life that we're getting to used to. And that might help keep us on track. to to keep producing these more regularly and consistently because you know um so that might help um I can't remember what the other thing was now what was the other thing I don't really damn it damn it the first um the first module of my teaching uh course online course is now up on my website at mickalanconcepts.com um the first module it's kind of a hybrid between a it's a user-friendly uh university lecturer is how I kind of try to think of it um there's some worksheets there I'm talking about the kind the social construction of time it's gonna be followed up by a couple of other modules on time as an uh dramaturgy and time as practice in the rehearsal room and then I'm gonna work through things like space and some other big anthropological concepts that um you can use in a practical way in your practice.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:08

So also all check it out available if you want to well not may not reply instantly but if you ever want to ask either of us really um but anthropologically or in in that realm of theatre shoot Mick an email um especially if you're interested in the courses but you're not sure if they're for you and um we're looking forward to having our next chat with you we're really glad to be back thanks for hanging out in the green room um we will definitely enjoy our next episode with you we're looking forward to it do ya