GR Ep 9_ An Actor Prepares but is an actor prepared

Mik and Nik (a long-married theatre couple with decades in the industry and in teaching) unpack a big question: actors learn how to prepare—so are they prepared for the mental, physical, and emotional toll of the work? They reflect on training methods that deliberately alter consciousness and mine personal memory (often triggering trauma) while insisting “this isn’t therapy,” and note the frequent lack of real support or reintegration skills, especially for young or neurodiverse performers. They discuss roles that can haunt actors, the feast-or-famine career rhythm, and the new pressure of building an online identity and “social capital” that can distract from craft. They highlight Australia’s Support Act helpline and urge artists to talk, set boundaries, keep asking why they’re doing it, prioritize fun, and remember the industry isn’t your identity—and you always have choices.

https://supportact.org.au/
tel: 1300 731 303

Support Act is the music industry’s charity, delivering crisis relief services to musicians, managers, crew and music workers across all genres who are unable to work due to ill health, injury, a mental health problem or some other crisis. 

Help is available to all people working in the broader creative industries in Australia via the Support Act Wellbeing Helpline.

Transcript

GR Ep 9_ An Actor Prepares but is an actor prepared

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This podcast is recorded on the Kaurna lands of the Adelaide Plains. We acknowledge the traditional owners of these lands, past, present, and emerging, and are grateful for the chance to contribute our stories to the vast tapestries of stories that have come before and continue into the future 

I have hit record. Okay. Welcome to the Green Room with Mik and Nik. It's a lazy Saturday afternoon. We're inside by the fire. Thought we'd have a bit of a chat. What are we chatting about this week, Nik? Uh, welcome back everyone. Uh, I'm Nikki Allen. For those of you who don't know, Mik and I are a married couple.

We've been married for over 25 years, and we've been best friends longer than that. Uh, and the whole time working in theater. Uh, I'm a choreographer, director, writer, et cetera, et cetera, of all trades in the theater [00:01:00] world. And, uh, Mik is- A Doctor of Anthropology and a writer, director, performer, and we've both been working in the performing arts and media career for about 35 years each while we've been married.

And this is just where we chat and hang out, talk about things that might be of interest to other people. So we've, we've also done a lot of teaching in our careers and, um, although we're having a bit of a hiatus now, it's been really good to look back and, um, we had a sudden s- well, kind of, uh, conversation surrounding current, uh, mental health for emerging actors.

Um, I mean, even going through acting school, it's, it's big stuff. Uh, and then, um, we were- we got into a conversation about whether we really are preparing, um, emerging actors in particular for the mental toll, the [00:02:00] health toll, uh, the physical toll of acting. Um, and are we-- if we are, are we doing it to the same extent that we're doing it for sports people and other, uh, singers, et cetera.

So yeah, it really got us having a chat, and we'd like to share some thoughts with you. So in summary, we're kinda having a chat about an actor prepares, but is an actor prepared for what's to come? Yeah. So we both went through, uh, we went through the, uh, Center for the Performing Arts in Adelaide, uh, South Australia.

This would be a previous episode where we talked about what that education was like. Mm. And, uh, you know, it's a baptism of fire. It was back then. But any, any acting course you do, you're watching... You know, we both taught in tertiary and university and I think in, in many ways, what you're watching is the same thing.

When we went through, when we've watched other people go through the, the [00:03:00] mental health support is probably less than what you would've got in high school and primary school. Oh. At least there was a counselor there. I mean, you can always go to your teacher- Okay. Yeah ... you can go to a fellow pe- but yeah, the, uh, I don't remember having that actual support.

And I do remember some situations where it was actually needed So yeah. Yeah. I don't remember anything in my teaching time where, where, uh, that was something that was an option, uh, for the students that we were teaching. Yeah. Interesting. Well, let's maybe step back a bit to... Yes, we did formal education in learning the craft of being an actor.

We worked in a particular method, or we were taught in a particular method, which is the Laban/Bartenieff method of movement psychology. Um, [00:04:00] and actor training, well, that was our particular experience. But actor training generally, professional actor training generally was based in a method, um, like a school of thought.

Mm. And they all, to one degree or another, teach individuals who wanna be actors skills and techniques to, um, embody characters that they're playing, or at least embody the experience of the character that they're playing. And that requires a level of, um, physical discipline, uh, voice and movement techni- techniques.

It requires some logical technique discipline in terms of, you know, how you might break a scene down, um, beats for certain characters' speech, and all the rest of it. [00:05:00] But it also involves, um, an emotional, um, breakdown as well. Breakdown's probably not the right word there. But at least kind of, um- ... there, there's always the possibility or the potential or that lives a lot in parallel to full-on actor training, this kind of psychological deconstruction- Mm

and emotional deconstruction- Mm ... of the actor in order to access part-- what they need for the character. Mm-hmm. And I think it's probably that point that you're maybe touching on, is that there's that quality and how do we, A, teach that and, B, look after people because that journey can be quite traumatic for people, as we've experienced many students.

We've seen people who have had, um, who have been maybe [00:06:00] psychologically vol- Past trauma gets triggered. Yeah. They may be psychologically- Yeah. Yeah. Low until you did the scene ... uh, you know, hinder in the first place. Yeah. And then to be put under the scrutiny- Mm ... and the discipline of an actor training- Of being good enough.

Yeah ... can lead to a blurring of- Your s- your identity ... identity. Mm. And who you are and what you're doing And why you're there at all anymore I think, um- Mm. I can appreciate too that that's different for different people at different times of their life. Like when I was, when I was going through actor training, it was, yeah, I wanted to be an actor.

I wanted to explore different characters and roles and experiences and, 'cause I was young and naive. I was what, 17, 18. So yeah, cool. But now at this age, which maybe I won't say on the podcast, but we're both Gen Xers. But maybe at this age, I don't wanna live in a character for three months, six months, and do a performance.

I don't want to have that shadow [00:07:00] of a role living next to me. Anyway, there's, there's, there's probably moving on- Yeah, yeah. I wanna- ... but it is. Sorry. No, go, go. I, I was actually gonna go back to what you were saying earlier. Really triggered some thoughts in me, uh, when you were saying, um, that you, you know, you do have to decompartment- you learn to decompartmentalize your own and reflect upon your own traumas and emotions and backgrounds.

Uh, uh, because you gotta, you've gotta... If you haven't got something to hang the idea of this character on, then you gotta do a heap of research. If you haven't got anything in yourself, you gotta do so much more research and so much more work. Um, so you look for things that might align emotionally, et cetera, and you, you kind of pull on your own, uh, tools and resources of emotional, um, ability.

Mm-hmm. Capability, memory- Mm ... recall. [00:08:00] Um, now I-- This, this, uh, phenomenon, whatever it is that we do, this, this, uh, alchemy that we do, it's not just about learning to do that as an actor. When, when I went through training, uh, there were multiple, multiple occasions where we were told, "This isn't therapy. This isn't therapy.

If you want therapy, go somewhere else." So if you admitted to anyone that you had a childhood wound triggered, you know, you, you got talked... You got-- People were concerned and there was care, uh, but it was all about like, "That's cool. This is not what's h- We gotta get back onto this. If you want therapy, then this is not where you do it."

Like- Can I pause there? Now, I also-- Hang on. I also remember that happening in, in lots of class sessions. Voice classes were almost purposefully set up to trigger childhood trauma and [00:09:00] past trauma, and then for you to unpack it in front of everyone. Very therapy. However, with no therapist in the room That's because- All about getting an act- That's because-

getting to be, getting to that place that Michael was referring to earlier, where we can decompartmentalize our own struc- internal structure and replace it with other bits and pieces and re-alchemize it into a new character. Sorry, Mik, go. Well, there's lots going on there. First of all, the techniques we were taught in were movement psychology, so right.

We can unpack that further if we like. But movement, so in the body, so an embodied experience, a visceral, temporal, spatial experience that lives in the cellular structure and is informed by the cellular inputs and processing of the f- physical form that you are, and psychology, which is a-- [00:10:00] which is basically medicalizing behavior, right?

If, in shorthand, right? Psychology and psychiatry is really a scientific medical discipline. That's fair. Mm. But they deal with, um, behavior. Like that's essentially where they sit. So they medicalize behavior, right? Now that's got lots of issues- Well, they are- ... around it- Yeah ... we, we won't unpack at the moment.

But- Yep ... so you're dealing with embodied experiences of psychology, which is medicalized and diagnostic social behavior. Mm. So that's one thing. Mm. Then the voice technique was linked later in Feldenkrais, which is again embodied- Em- the embodiment of your- The embodiment of your emotional state- Yeah

through vocal exercises. So these are- Breath ... these are very transformative, um, processes which are designed to give the actor the [00:11:00] ability to alter their consciousness as applicable to the character that they're playing, to live Juliet, to be this character- Mm ... to understand and really live in the moment of Macbeth with his torturous decisions and his guilt, and to live that as a totally embodied and psychological state.

Yes. And that's what you're being trained to do. And therefore, it fully affects you- Yeah ... whether you want it to or not. Yeah. Y- and, and it affects everyone differently for different reasons. Mm-hmm. And it might affect them at different times or stages or in different classes, or it might affect them in different roles.

I remember one role I had to play in "Brimstone and Treacle" where I had to play the, the devil character, uh, for shorthand version. Um, whether he was or not is the question of the play. But point is, he had to do some pretty horrible things, um, to other [00:12:00] characters on stage. And you have to, you have to-- the rehearsal process is about applying that actor technique Of embodying an au-- e-essentially an altered state of consciousness in order to do things in an authentic way that in this particular case were quite freaking horrible.

So that kind of... I guess what I'm saying, what I was trying to say before is that maybe as a young man who didn't have much life experience, that was an exciting option. But nowadays, living and embodying and having that trans- and going and applying myself to the transformative process of that altered state of consciousness and living it and holding onto it for months at a time is- Mm.

Just, just saying it out loud is exhausting, let alone living it. Um, and I [00:13:00] guess this is what we're talking about in terms of both actor training and helping people understand themselves as they're learning it, but also just in the longevity of a career, like when you're living in that space. Look, it's, it's a lot.

Look, it is a lot to ask. Like what you were just talking about, I'm gonna refer back to what Michael was talking about. It is a bloody lot to ask, and I fully, fully support and recognize the important stories. I'm one of the big advocates for them, and that doesn't change that it is a lot to ask of someone.

Well, you've got to- In order to play that role in "Brimstone" and "Treacle," one has to find something somewhere, even if it's only a freaking speck somewhere deep down in their body that actually... That they can hang the character on. You, you can't convincingly play a character by pretending to be them.[00:14:00] 

That's caricaturing. Hmm. That's not the same thing. The actor's craft- If you are- ... is to be authentic. If you're working- Yeah ... the craft- Yeah ... you, you-- it's about authenticity. It's abs- it is the least you can do to respect the writer, the player, the people involved- The whole point ... the story. And the whole fucking thing.

All of it. Um, and to, yeah, to tell it truthfully and to embody it. And this is, this is the thing. To play this role, an actor has to find even a speck in themselves where they are delighted by the idea. Um, and we might do a hazard warning before this, but I wanna be very earnest. Um, like, you know, trigger warning before the show.

But the actor has to find a way to develop a character within themselves, uh, that finds great pleasure in haunt- hunting down [00:15:00] and violating incredibly vulnerable people who can't move Oh, yeah Now, that, to find that in yourself just so you can do this role and do it successfully is one thing. I'm gonna-- now at the age of 51, I'll be honest, uh- You can.

At the age of 51- I'm only 32. I, I know, I know an awful lot more. I know an awful lot more about, uh, my world, myself, all the rest of it, where, you know, even on the simple... If you think about frequency, uh, we're all made of frequency. We know that we emanate frequency. We know that, uh, we change our vibration.

So to actually decide to embody that for two and a half months, [00:16:00] encourage it, develop it in your body. What are you doing to yourself? I mean, really think about it. Even if you act on everything they tell you to find. There are techniques where, that are very helpful to disembody, like to take the character off for the night and put it back on when you need it, but you can't really fully let them go.

You might be able to take the costume off. You might be able to take a few things off, but some- that little bit of tendril of it you have to keep, because if you-- the minute the actor lets it go, most of the script is gone. Mm-hmm. It's all gone. Mm-hmm. It's, it's you have to hold onto something to- during the time period that it's required for you to be so.

Now, end of the story is that that is going to have an effect on your body [00:17:00] physically, mentally. You don't even know, and especially when you're talking about a young actor that's 18 years old or 19 years old, think about it, who is actively embodying that. That's... Yeah, you can understand it logically, but the things that are happening and the things that the occurrent-- you know, like the crossovers, all those different things that happen.

I've met many actors who've spoken about, um, characters they've played as if they're real life do- like ghosts that haunt them, follow them, um, you know, that show up in mirrors, all that sort of stuff. It's not, um... These are not like, "Oh, I'm just having the, taking the piss out of your stories." They're quite common.

Right. And so when you consider how far the young actor will go, this bit scares me a little, man. Well, [00:18:00] there's, there's a couple of different aspects- That we can throw in here- Mm-hmm ... is that, A, that's why most acting schools that we're talking about-- No, we're not talking about your agent acting school that you have to do.

We're talking about your hardcore places wherever you go in the world to do that in your local place. Um- So the, the higher up the school, yeah. But, um, there's an element of, um, a shamanistic quality- Mm-hmm ... because what we're talking about here is the techniques and methods to effectively alter your state of consciousness for the purpose of doing a performance.

And that as a phenomenon, and that performance is bounded by certain structures. It's partly why we go- Yep ... to the theater student- Exactly ... to watch it happen. [00:19:00] So there is a pur- there is a, there is a purposeful application towards altering your state of consciousness. We're talking primarily theater. Film, film definitely, but film is a bit different.

Different again 'cause you don't- But you can let it- Yeah ... you can let the scene go once you've filmed it. But, you know, if you're doing a, um, performance six days a week- But that doesn't mean there's not plenty of opportunity to film over a long- Totally ... filming period to get carried away. But it is different.

Like it is- Because- ... like the scene's done. It's all gone now. You're only doing all these scenes, and it's very broken down, and you're surrounded by a family and a network, and you do have mental health support often on set or around set, even in the, even in, uh, nurses, you know. But different in a training institution.

So you get taught-- I guess what we're getting [00:20:00] at is that the learning the craft of being an actor is teach- is learning, teaching and learning the ability and the techniques to break down your em- your embodied psychological and emotional self, and to be able to reinterpret that for the purposes of serving a character- Mm

which are often traumatic or, well, you know, big. Going off big life changes. So- They get their ego- But- ... can be bigger than yours. But, but- And, uh- ... but what we're saying also is especially in our experience, there was an absence of learning skills and techniques in order to come out of that state of being- Mm-hmm

and to reintegrate yourself back into who you are so that you don't lose yourself, and that is an important thing- Mm ... that needs to happen because [00:21:00] The, the techniques and the methods often implicitly take for granted, assumed that the actor they are training is neurotypical. Mm. Right? That's a big thing, that the actor is neurotypical.

If the actor is neurodiverse, um, and, and that's not to say neurotypical can't go through, um, can't experience emotional trauma themselves by going through these processes- Oh, yeah ... but if you are neurodiverse, there is a, I would suggest, a, uh, increased- Risk ... risk- Uh ... that these things may, these exercises- Drug use and alcohol and sex- All these-

to reverse it ... these exercises and these tasks that you're made to do as a training actor, a- in a neurodiverse, um, you know, mi- brain structure- Mm ... um, it's, [00:22:00] that's not a value judgment, that's just an observation, that brain structures are different, which contributes partly to neurodiversity. It's all good.

I've got ADHD. Big, big conversation. Anyway- I think we're all fine. But that would naturally, you know ... In neurodiversity there is often prob- often-- I don't wanna say problems, that's not the right word. Mm. But there are-- it's often more difficult to interpret non-verbal language, non-verbal social cues. Yeah, absolutely.

And, and they are a big part of actor training. Mm-hmm. And a lot of actor training and techniques and methods assume- Mm-hmm ... that the actor is neurotypical and understands those non-verbal cues. Well, especially when we went through. Exactly. God, yeah. So, and you're- and then you're asked to explore them and understand them.

Mm-hmm. And that can work, that can work both ways, you know? Like there, there's actually a, a potential for ... Uh, one of the things I appreciated about the technique was that there, it was a method. Like you could put it together. If you did this, this, this, this, and this. Add a bit of- And you allowed yourself to leave yourself alone [00:23:00] and be in the moment

add a bit of your own sparkle. Yeah. You know? So it works for me- Mm ... but for others it might ... Well, it didn't. Hasn't. So there's that aspect to actor training, and the mental load. I think- Can I- Yeah ... can I also add in there before, before you finish that, I want you to finish it off, so please hold on. But my, my thought on that was too, that also, um, you can't, you c- okay.

Until your brain is fully, fully, fully developed, we can all go into the science, but I just can't right now- Mm-hmm ... um, then you are, you are actually geared in brain, hardwired to take risks. Mm-hmm. Now, you put a young person in this place, and you can teach-- We, we were taught Laban, we were taught, um, you know, so many varying th- they were all Fantastic, really.

I, I can't fault any of them- Mm ... in terms of what they offer the [00:24:00] actor. However, you can't stop young actors researching- Mm-hmm

you can't stop young actors researching themselves and getting overexcited and deciding to try something. M- we lost, uh, one of our actors in my year at college, and one of my favorite humans, because, uh, of a situation that went too far with method acting that, that we weren't all aware of and lecturers weren't aware of, and it just went so far that, uh, they had to withdraw.

So I do genuinely also wanna shout out to the, uh, right now, 'cause it seems like we're bashing a bit. Oh, oof. I just wanna shout out to all of the lecturers, um, and fellow students and et cetera, et cetera, office staff, admin, who [00:25:00] actually were always watching out because they did see it. That even if they didn't know what it was, they could see it.

Mm. And, and there was a genuine sense of care. We just didn't have the language and, and I guess this is where this conversation that we're having now is going, is that do you think we're gonna develop that language- Well, I, I- ... for young actors? I would like to think that acting schools with better inte- the better integrity have these things- And they are out there

in place. Yeah, that's true. Have these things in place. I appreciate not all... There's, there's a kind of, um, culture to performing arts training which is quite, um, antagonistic and- In the trenches ... yeah, and- Pay your dues ... disciplinary and, and all of that sort of stuff. And that's all fine. That may be fine, but- But it's, yeah, there's- But if they don't-

different, um, areas of business- Yeah ... they can be hierarchical, they can be this, that and the other. [00:26:00] Yeah. But I think, I think schools and institutions that have, um, maybe a more contemporary integrity would be thinking about this aspect and incorporating it into the, a more holistic, uh, actor training, um, environment.

Oh- Yeah ... you know, and we can only- I think, I- I, I can tell you, I did a bit of Googling today and just had a look at a few different things and I, I, I can tell you that it's, it's pretty much the same as it was to some degree. Um, so training actors receive a highly variable amount of mental health support.

So some of them have built-in conservatory care- And then some of them have none. Um, so the top tier schools- Mm ... as you were saying, they employ resident counselors or drama therapists, [00:27:00] literally drama therapists. And, and we know that they're out there, so that's a very cool choice I thought. But independent programs and, uh, TAFEs, and things like that, they're really ad hoc resources that are, uh, that might be like a, like kinda like high school where there's a someone doubling as that, but they're not really equipped and they don't have all the skills, but it ticks the box when they're doing their paperwork that someone's on it and is available to listen and be accountable.

Um, and so yeah, the, the ex- the extent of the support depends on the institution, um, whether a, a student is with the union and all that sort of stuff, and obviously where they live in the country. Um, but the thing is, um, with independent studios and private classes, they usually lack the budget to do [00:28:00] that sort of thing.

So instructors are increasingly kind of a bit similar to what happened with hairdressers, right? Where this is- Mm. No, yeah, this is what I mean. Like, so the instructors are- Counselors ... counselors, slowly becoming counselors and, and probably should be inducted into it similar to what happened with hairdressers here in Australia.

They should be at least getting mental health training. Where, yeah, where hairdressers realized that p- they were suffering duress from hearing these women's stories, and that they didn't have any ability to help them, and they started to get themselves trained up and yeah, and all the rest of it, so they can now report, help, do all that sort of stuff when women come in who are in distress, majority women.

But yeah, in Australia, um, this is, this is the one interesting thing that I really found out that blew my brain today. Didn't have any idea of this. Once [00:29:00] training ends and actors enter the workforce, um, then, you know, that it's up to them to go and get their own... Like you're in the wider community obviously.

Mm-hmm. But in Australia, the primary resource for performing arts professionals is Support Act, a charity that offers a 24/7 free and confidential wellbeing helpline, 1-800-959-500. They provide targeted industry specialized clinicians- And subsidize multiple free counseling sessions for performers. And that is Australia-wide.

I had no idea the amount of times I wish I could've contacted someone to ask for help. Mm. I don't know when it started. All I know is it's there. We, um, we'll see if we can- Well- ... provide a link. Um, and yeah You [00:30:00] raised, you raised one interesting point, which leads me onto a second interesting point. All right?

Mm-hmm. Is that how long have we been doing this? Oh. Too frigging long. And we always felt alone and isolated. I don't know whether that's, that could be partly because of the type of people we are. I think partly sometimes it's the nature of the work- Mm ... which is very gypsy-like. And look, I'm gonna be honest- Mm-hmm

after marriage, yeah, um- Kids particularly. The- It's hard to maintain ... the community of actors and friends in that capacity have changed. Yep, and the ability to be out and about and- Yeah, our capacity changed- ... active ... very much. So your capacity a lot changed because of your life circumstances. But who do you talk to- And your needs and your-

about that? I guess your own therapist, yeah. And your needs and your wants and your- Mm ... all the rest of it. So you do f- you do suddenly feel disconnected, which leads me to the second- It's not the career you choose [00:31:00] or although apparently it is now. I don't think- Which leads me to the second interesting point- Mm

which is this, that being generally in the performing arts has always been, and it's one of those great things, is that it's a social industry. Mm. It's a social environment. Gypsies. Gypsies. You're moving from group to group. Mm. It's a very transient type of work environment and space. Help someone today 'cause they might help you tomorrow too.

Yep. Yeah. And so there's, there's, there's a lot of that going on. And, and we also know that maybe a part of- a feature of that, and maybe, maybe sometimes a more negative feature of that, is that having a social presence or a social identity, maybe notoriety, maybe popularity, maybe reputation, whatever you wanna call it.

But what in an- Mm ... what in anthropology would we would call social capital. Like if you think of the term capital like as in- Mm ... money is capital, and if you think of social capital as perhaps- [00:32:00] Who you know ... social influence. How to get you there. Yeah. That's always been, that has always been a feature of our sector.

You can look back to countless stories throughout history of the, the background stories behind the scenes and the intrigue and all the rest of it, right? Now, this is something that is n- was, is n- was not part of our training or environment- Mm ... which is a contemporary experience for emerging actors, is that that- That vibe of the industry, that social vibe that I was talking about of the industry now has a presence online as well.

Mm. So that there is- Mm ... feasibly- Things have changed ... there is, like it's feasibly a decision-making influence- Yeah ... whether when you're casting a show, you consider the actor's social footprint and whether they have a high social capital footprint. Lots of followers, lots of likes, lots of interactions, lots of- Mm

collaboration. They bring with the project that fan base. And that [00:33:00] is- Which has changed- ... feasibly a, a d- something to influence a decision in casting. Mm-hmm. Which puts an added amount of pressure on the actor to now be performing- Pursuing a career rather than a craft. Yeah, but pursuing your career becomes performing for yourself.

Performing. You need to perform to create a... Do you know what I mean? Your life is your performance. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You are, you are an identity. You need to be an identity to be cast as another identity. It's weird, I know. But- And then at the end of the day, even if you all, if you do all this and you do it successfully, I am here to promise you that it will all come crashing down at some point.

Well, mate- And- ... let's not be- Well, I mean- ... too cynical about it ... I mean that- For, for a very few out there- You- ... it may work ... I mean that, that you can have this... I've watched, I've, I've been there, I've watched Mik, I've watched everyone I love and enjoy in this industry do the same thing. You have your [00:34:00] highs, and you've got to encourage people to love that high and to fuck- and to ride it.

To ride it like the storm is coming and it's never gonna end, right? Because we all know in the back of our hearts, in the back of our minds, that it might not... This might be, there may be a pit of nothingness and after this. Or they might go on to just bounce along to a whole heap of things. But it cannot keep going because you are one human, right?

It is rare that it keeps going. You're one human, and think about the millions of things that can happen in your life. Your parents become ill. Well, yeah. You give up everything for it. Um, this happens, that happens. You have a baby. Uh- Just a person ... you can keep going, but it doesn't mean it's a smooth trajectory or a line- No

towards a certain point. In this career, [00:35:00] you're gonna have pits of emptiness where, like, you are seriously considering becoming an accountant. I became a bookkeeper. I've become so many things- There's nothing wrong- ... in those pits ... with that either. Like- So yeah, it- the higher you go, the lower you go at the end of it.

And there's a lot of support from your peers around that Because we all inherently know that it's hard, um, and that you deserve to celebrate this moment. But can you also see where this actually fundamentally sets up a, a whole philosophy in a young person's mind where their whole world is about feast and famine?

Mm. And that's not healthy either. So there's a lot of things- There is ... like when you're talking about mental health... Yeah, I'm talking about all the shamanistic qualities, those, those difficult things, those, [00:36:00] uh, like spiritual things, the things that affect your life path potentially, how long you live and things like that, where you really genuinely have busted yourself, um, for pittance, you know?

And then you're gonna, you're gonna, you're gonna resent that later on, you're gonna struggle later on, and it's, it's, it is a whole journey. I tell you- Yeah ... it's a whole journey. But at the end of the day, when it comes down to it, it's not just about that. Do they prepare actors for this? No. They say all sorts of ridiculous things- Well-

but they don't prepare actors for the idea that what else are you gonna do? Or, you know- Well, I think- ... we were discouraged from thinking about teaching, because if you're a serious actor, you wouldn't consider that. I think I left that woman's class that day because I was pretty disgusted. Yeah, I- But, you know, like there's lot- there's all these opinions, and now that it's online and now that...

Like where, where is the [00:37:00] craft in all of this? It's just gotten so messy. Mm. Um- We're busting our asses- Like- ... doing all this. We're not prepar- Sorry, uh, we're not... Sorry, we can skip all that. We're not actually preparing. We're, we're, we- They're busting their asses, and they're trying to be prepared, but we- are we- we're not preparing them for how to live through that- Well, it's-

earnestly. I guess- We just tell them to expect disaster or whatever. Like, you know, so how, how... Or to go out online and to bust your ass pumping everything online. And because that's costing you a million bucks and all of your concentration and time, every time you try and go and do a workshop somewhere, you feel like shit because you're not producing.

But then you should be doing workshops. Then you go, "All right, I'll do a million workshops, and I'll just post all of them online to show how fucking... And I'll, and I'll keep adding everyone just so I can get that job." [00:38:00] Thing is, you go for the job, and guess what? A, it either doesn't matter because they could pick anyone off the street.

They're not interested in the actor. They're interested in the right person or face or personality. B, you don't get the job because you're not prepared- as an actor because you've been too busy doing all the other shit. And you're so busy thinking about how they're gonna perceive you and how you should be perceived that you never actually prepared as an actor and did your job.

You didn't turn up and do your job. It's really got everyone running around in circles. That is a lot. Which is why we have casting agents ringing Michael going, "God, can you just come and do this job? Like, we just need an actor who knows what they're doing, who we don't have to deal with or manage." Um, [00:39:00] I think in all of that I can-

grab that it is difficult. Okay. It is difficult- Look, we got a lot of that. That was a huge rant. But yeah, like, uh, it's not just, um, yeah, it's- It's- ... all the other stuff ... difficult to maybe support emerging actors in an environment that is- How do you track it? You've got a great point ... so, so immediately driven.

And so the teachers who are teaching ha- were never brought up in an- No ... environment where that was part of their- So how do they... Yeah So how do they do it? I mean, I remember when I was working at, in uni, I did a, uh, professional development course on, um, the researcher's social media profile, which was just essentially- Mm

and, you know, LinkedIn and all ResearchGate- Mm-hmm ... all those sorts of... It, it's essentially the [00:40:00] same social media strategies with a different purpose. Mm. All right? So, so the, the nature of, the nature of this environment that we're in, this- Mm ... um, version of the internet, the, the web-based life that we're in, Web 2-

I think it's called from memory- Web 1.0 ... is, is intimately integrated into your identity as a performer. So I remember as a teacher at TAFE- Mm ... I was having actors coming up to me asking for advice. But these were not-- They were learning the acting, they were doing the acting course, but they wanted advice on how to be an artist and have a career.

And they were referencing, you know, contemporary artists who were into fashion and music and film and TV, and really, and wrote books and- How do I get across everything? How do I get across everything? Yeah. Yeah. So [00:41:00] the contemporary performer, I guess, is, is, uh, how do, how do I teach them that? I can teach them And a quality or a technique or a, a method of acting and being an actor.

But really in terms of their career, that's gonna form maybe one-tenth of the skill set that they're going to need, um, to be a contemporary performer. So that's, uh- And it seems to be- And that, so that invites a whole other- Yeah ... aspect of mental health and mental- That- ... and all the rest of it- I've, I've done some-

because you have to navigate that space ... in my life. It is absolutely emotionally and mentally impactful and takes a toll. It's exhausting to, to- Mm ... to be... And, and, you know, I struggle with it anyway because I'm just like- Just in the daily life factor, like do I have to? I struggle with it [00:42:00] anyway just as a person going, "Who the, who the fuck wants to know what I think?

And why the fuck do I wanna tell people?" S- so but that's kind of the whole point of doing it. So I, I'm like, I, I don't know. It's, it, it's, um, it's another conversation about the nature of, of identity and ego when you think you- that the everyday thoughts that you have are important enough to put on the internet and share with the world on a private platform that you then get upset about because it breaches your data.

I don't know. It's complicated and, and I just kind of... Anyway, that's a different conversation. Mm. That is, that is certainly a- Look, I think- ... contemporary- Sounds like- ... approach on a contemporary actor training, and that is something, a world they have to navigate- It sounds like- ... and I don't get it ... act- uh, lecturers and tutors are doing the absolute best they can to keep up with the continual movement of the world around them- There is one-

[00:43:00] and the impacts of that There is one new- Along with the practical application of every day working with students. There is one new development in the professional space, which is the emergence of the intimacy coordinator or the intimacy director. Oh, yeah, that I used to do that all the time. Which I think is a, um- But I never did it as a role.

I think is a, um, an, you know, a- Valuable ... valuable. I'm sure it's one of those HR type, um, experience- But I've watched a lot of these scenes and gone- Yeah, for the sake of work and those, those are fairly, they're v- Where's the intimacy? ... highly v- vulnerable and high risk in that vulnerability for exploitation.

Mm. And that's- And then there's other scenes where you go, "Oh my God, there's so much intimacy and no one oversaw this." Mm. Sorry, yeah. I, I often see there's an intimacy coach for a scene that was nothing more than a kiss now. But then I go and watch other things and I go, "Where the frig was the intimacy coach for this scene?"

Like- Yeah, but I think they're- ... this actual [00:44:00] like, whoa, okay. You know? And, um, I give huge kudos to all of the actors that are brave enough to do that. But again- Yeah. It, it's up to ourselves and- Hey ... we're very strong, bloody amazing people but- This is gonna sound like a, a real s- this is gonna sound like a real segue, but actually the porn industry has some of the highest standards of professional on-set etiquette- And support

and safety- Yeah ... support of any of the industry. Uh, depending on- Depending- ... what industry you're doing. Yeah ... you know. Well, I'm not gonna say all the porn industry- Yeah ... obviously, but the most, again, those, those producers who have the highest integrity and are work with, and are working as ethically with integrity as possible, they have a lot of those things in place.

If you're wondering how Mik knows this- So ... I'm just gonna remind you, he's an anthropologist- Awesome ... and he reads everything. But he reads a lot of porn. No. Surely I'm not alone with [00:45:00] that. It's all, it's all research. Oh, come on. It was a gimme. Had to. Had to. Research. Yeah, that's fair. Um, yeah. Look, I think, um, in terms of what we've discussed tonight, what I've researched, I, I really, the jury's out for me.

I, I think that, um, if you're out there and you're doing it tough, I'm gonna remind you that there is an Australian national helpline for performing artists. Or if there's a local one wherever you're listening. And yeah. Well- I think if, if- National helpline ... not that, not that I can offer in any-- I'm not that kind of doctor that I can offer any- And-

health support, but- ... uh, talk to your people. Talk, talk, talk. Don't keep it inside. But if I can offer anything as maybe a, a practitioner in the performing arts of 35 plus years, is that you gotta hang on to why you're doing it. I think- Mm-hmm ... I think that was the other quest- uh, [00:46:00] the other thing that came from college, and it's something that I've held onto, is that every day you've gotta ask yourself why you're doing it.

Why are you doing it? Why would you wake up every morning and put yourself through some of the things we've talked about in the last 40-odd minutes? Why would you do that? And, and really keep investigating that question. And I think that keep, that, if you do that, for me at least, it helps to keep me, it helps to keep me grounded.

Mm. You know? And those reasons can change. Yeah, sure, when I was a young man, it was always about, it was all about, you know, aspirations and ambitions to be a performer and to make great work and all the rest of it. Of course. And then, uh, and then I moved into a space where it was about social advocacy and giving the voice to minority- Mm-hmm

groups and doing all that, which is still important. Um, not as important as the [00:47:00] first reason I got into it. But now, and now there's an aspect to it of like- I, you know, I, I consider it just having a, like a lotto ticket in, and if I get a gig, I get a gig, and hey, cool, it's a bit of extra money, and that's cool, and I move on.

So there's different-- that, that reason changes, but I think it's important to keep asking yourself why would you wake up and still have a, a, what, where does this burning passion come from to keep doing what we're doing and to keep applying ourselves somehow to the craft that we love? And if you keep doing that, then I think, in my experience anyway, it's really been that kind of rope in a storm kind of question.

You know? Like when you- And if that- ... when you're in a turbulent time, if you go back to that question of why am I doing it? Am I doing it for the kids? Am I doing it for this minority group that I represent? Am I doing it for the responsibility that [00:48:00] I have to my audience or my cast or my company? Am I doing it because I love it?

Am I doing it because I just need the money? Uh, why am I doing it? Keep-- but be honest with that. If you can do that- Totally ... I think that maybe it can keep you grounded- Yeah ... somehow. But that's my contribution. Here's a-- it's a very, very valid contribution, and, um, here's a great and very vulnerable and honest example.

My-- born into a performing arts family, literally born into a performing arts family. You were? Yeah, I was. And, um, I didn't want a bar of it. I w- I was tubby, and they were all performing, uh, like, uh, theater... No, what am I saying? They were all dancers and, um, movement theater performers. And, uh, I just didn't want to do it, and I'm pretty [00:49:00] sure it's 'cause probably ADHD.

But yeah, I really didn't want to do that, but I loved my fantasy world of doing it. And I eventually, uh, just couldn't stop, uh, watching and learning. I refused to do classes. I would sit and watch instead of doing them, and I couldn't stop noticing that I understood something that was-- that the others people that my mom was trying to teach just couldn't s- feel, see, connect.

And so eventually, I got up and did all the classes 'cause it was, 'cause I wanted to put the brain pieces that I could see together. Then, uh, when I were-- then I really went for it, tried for it as a career. Fantastic. Moved through all different things. Throughout my life, I have genuinely had period... When I had babies, I said, [00:50:00] "That's it.

I'm shutting down the company we're running." We're gonna shut it down. This is... I b- I want to shut it down. I'm done. I'm exhausted. I'm exhausted from giving. I need to do this for a while. And I went through varying stages of sadness and remorse and then eventually came to peace with it, and had really letten the whole beast go.

Let, letten. It's my huge Shakespearean word. I had letten the beast go. You can't use that in the next Scrabble game. And when I had letten the beast go, and I was really happy just having my kids and stuff- Release the letten ... someone rang. And, and, uh, they rang Mik, uh, uh, talking about work and theater stuff, and I just was like, "Yeah, cool."

And then Mik came out to the balcony and said, "Hey, uh, they actually wanna talk to you. They wanna know if you wanna teach." I wanna teach fuck what? "Teach drama. Like, do you wanna teach this [00:51:00] particular group? They, this is..." blah, blah, blah, and off I went. And, like, part of me didn't want to, but as soon as I stepped into it, that group lasted for years and had massive success.

And boy did I, boy did I enjoy that playing field, uh, that channel. It was a channel. It was a beautiful channel. And then when that channel finished, I went, "Right, I'm done with it." And then, uh, again, I think Mik got a phone call, and they were like, "No, we're looking for Nik, actually. Uh, does she wanna direct something?"

And again, I pushed it back. I don't want to do any of this anymore. It's really annoying and it takes up all my money and rah. And of course I read the script and mm, I directed it. It is really, really hard when the beast has picked you and bitten you, because it's like a poison in your blood. It [00:52:00] attracts it back to you.

Or a drug. Or a d- no, no. It can be a drug for some, because they're- The adrenaline ... because they're chasing something. For me, it's- The adrenaline can be a drug. Like, you know, like jumping out of a plane, that adrenaline before you go on stage. That, that can be- No, 'cause I'm, I'm not really talking about the acting or the experience of being on sta- I'm just talking about theater.

I keep trying to push it away, and somehow or another it presents. It's like mafia. Come and speak. Come and direct. Come and do this. Come and do that. Come back. Come back. And when I listen to music, I see it, and, you know, all those... It's, it is not like a drug, it's like a disease. It's like you've been bitten by something and it's tainted your blood, and you can't shake it even when you want to 'Cause it's part of you.

And that's the bit that is, ooh, uh, like I'm sorry and I'm glad for you [00:53:00] if it's happened to you because, uh- I remember- ... you need, you need to be doing it ... I remember I once got, um, asked by my sister, uh, well, I was- she was- I was talking to her and she said, "I'm really jealous or envious of you because you know what you wanna do."

There's- Oh, I heard that so many times through my- And you, you know- ... youth- ... you know what you wanna do- ... and my being years ... and you're, and you've, you start- You're so driven ... and you're so driven and you know what you wanna do. Yeah. I, I'm, I'm this age and I still don't know what I wanna do with my life. I'm just excited- And I-

about my friends on the weekend, and you're going to Melbourne for an audition. Yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, I remember thinking, yeah, yeah, yeah, actually in many respects I'm living the dream. But the flip side of that is that when, when there's no alternative but the absolute [00:54:00] monastic commitment that you've given- Mm.

For some of that, it- It, it kind of like it can be- Mm-hmm ... a two-edged sword is what I'm saying. Totally. And, and it doesn't matter whether you-- I've become a bookkeeper. I've become so many things that are completely the opposite, and it doesn't make any difference. I think there's-- if I can add a couple- Um, taking this year off has actually, off of doing anything, drama, theater, performing arts related, has actually been a united force front for us.

We've had to actually lock down that boundary. Yeah, sh- yeah, we had to make a conscious decision. Yep. We hadn't-- we realized in 35, 40-odd years- Longer, really ... well, 40, but yeah. Yeah. Then we haven't not- God ... been working in this space. So- Working in a show- ... it was a really interesting- ... or for the show ... really interesting question to go what would it [00:55:00] be like to take 12 months off or, or, or a period of time, let's say 12 months- Yeah

without having any of that in our life at all. What would life be like? That was a very ... Never lived a life like that before, and it's- Mm ... I guess, um, you catch us doing these podcasts in the middle of having that, um, life change- It's beautiful- ... big change ... 'cause it's reflective- Um, which is also- ... not in it

why we're doing this, because we wanna reflect- Mm ... on stuff. If I can add a couple more things before we wrap this up, though, is that on top of what I was saying about asking yourself the question, which is I think- Kind of underpins what you were just saying then Yeah. Yeah Right? You gotta keep asking yourself the question why you're doing it You do Right?

'Cause it'll- Every morning- ... it'll take everything ... you get up and you apply yourself to writing something or doing something, or doing something that involves your craft or your- Agreed ... career, why the freak are you doing it? Mm. 'Cause you could be doing so many other things. [00:56:00] But- Mm ... on top of that, the other thing I'd like to add is that you gotta be having fun.

Like, if it's not fun, if anything's not fun, why are you doing it? Yeah. If you're not enjoying yourself, if it's not giving you pleasure, and I don't mean that in a... Well, you know, maybe it is giving you pleasure, but I don't mean it in that particular way. I mean it in, like, if you're not getting- Fulfilled.

You don't feel fulfilled ... fulfillment- You don't feel like you're contributing- Fun, pleasure- ... to the- ... enjoyment, satisfaction You feel othered- Get your sore ass out ... from that side of the world, then- Then why are you doing it? Yeah. Yeah So, and again, it gets back to that question of why are you doing it? Mm.

So I think that's what I mean by I think I just keep coming back to that like a rope in a storm. Just hang on to that question. And there is- Be, be open to the fact that the answer may change, and, and go with that. [00:57:00] But because at the end of the day, that's, that's remaining true to what it is inside you.

The idea that the reason you're doing it may change. Totally. If, if you ignore the reason you're doing it, the voice inside you that wants to speak and be creative- Oh, your body will tell the truth. It keeps- Yeah, exactly. Mm. So- Yeah ... be-- And that, and that, in and of itself, is one of the best things to practice as a performing artist, which is vulnerability, because that's what you need to do your job.

Go. My last point on that is as someone who was born into the craft, uh, sounds very witchy. Anyway, as someone who was born into the craft, someone who, um, has,

uh, a lot of [00:58:00] experience in multiple fields of performing arts, I, uh, I definitely count enormous blessings. I have, I, I have done my fair sh-share of chasing, but I'm very lucky to have a career where I have been sought. Um, and that is kind of the universe, um, and also just true because I'm really good at what I do, and I get that.

However, my point is, if you've been kind of born into a creative family and, um- And you are naturally creative and gifted with just inspiration left, right, and center. Be a little bit careful, because going into acting colleges and things like that, even just small, depending on the group you're [00:59:00] in, I'm saying to be thoughtful about your personal needs and wants.

Because sometimes these groups and this whole being born into it, and this is me, like is that your identity really? Or is that all you know? And it is really important that you honor what your true sense of self is. So in taking this time off, I've realized for the first time ever, um, uh, that I, I'm discovering who I actually am.

Stripped of all those other things, uh, there's a new thing emerging, and it does and it has made me wonder that it has potentially distracted me and given me a whole heap of tools at the same time. So [01:00:00] if you're talented and you're gifted and everyone raves about all your talents and gifts, it doesn't mean that you owe the industry anything.

It doesn't mean you have a duty or a responsibility to be an actor or a performer. If that is your life path, you can't really stop it. It's going to come. But it is not something that you have to do to fulfill what other people think you are. Hmm. Regardless of your natural talents that seem to come through.

They may actually be something else. They may be masking. You don't know. Well, without being- It doesn't change your actual talent. It just means you have choice, and when you're in acting institutions, it can feel a little bit like my family, I guess, and growing into that, is that you don't have a choice.

You have to become one of us, you know? And- [01:01:00] Just- I actually really value the people in my year who stood up and went, "You know what? I'm not one of you, but I'm glad I had the experience," and left gobsmacking. You know? So there are choices and, um, if it's not working for you right now, even if you're in the middle of acting college, you, or uni or wherever, you can leave and do something else, and if it has picked you and bitten you, it will find you again at the right time, and have faith.

I guess what we're saying is that the The, both the craft and the industry within which you work- Are not you ... are, are all about, um, identity. Mm. And, and I could go on and give a whole frigging lecture about the [01:02:00] concept of per- Listen to everything ... about- Take what you need ... the concept of performance and identity and social- Mm

performance and social per- and what is a person, and all of these other things. That is bloody good though. And maybe, maybe we'll explore them in another podcast. Yeah, I'd love to hear that. The point is that this entire environment is very shamanistic by nature. Shamanistic- Ooh ... in its practice of doing the job, and shamanistic in its practice of doing the career.

And you need to be careful- And they know when you can do it ... you need to be careful to- Mm ... hang on and keep s- keep looking for yourself. Like if you've seen the movie, uh, Inception- ... you know, you've gotta have the little spindle. You've gotta have something that grounds you. Yeah. Have something that is your identity- Beyond

um, beyond or underneath or within, or however you wanna visualize it, because this whole space- Mm. It's not you ... is about [01:03:00] shamanistic qualities and shape-shifting identities. So yeah. Anyway- You have to be true to you too. Yeah. No matter what the institution- Um- ... says or anyone else, be true to you too. Like, like I always say, you know, you're here for a good time, not for a hard time.

Make sure you're having fun- ... and you've got a smile on your face. And, um- That was a heavy session. Um- That was a lot. Wow. We actually really give a shit. I hope everyone's looking after themselves. Check in with that national helpline number if you want to. I, uh, mental health care and support for young actors is imperative, uh- Or any actors really

to me. Um, fight for justice. Off she goes. Go on. All right. ADHD work. Yep. I'll go and get your cape out of the dryer. All right. Excellent. All right. See you next time. I'll see you soon. Bye.

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