The Rupture of Losing Your Job | When Work Becomes Who You Are

Who are you when the role disappears?

Modern culture teaches us to define ourselves by what we do. We introduce ourselves by our jobs, tie our worth to our productivity, and often struggle to separate our identities from our careers. So what happens when that role suddenly disappears?

In this episode of Rupture, Wendy Lurrie speaks with organizational psychologist and cultural behaviorist Dr. Lauran Star about job loss, workplace trauma, and the profound rupture that can occur when our professional identities are stripped away.

Having experienced layoffs from both sides of the desk, Dr. Star offers a rare perspective on the emotional realities of losing a job, the systems that fail us, and how we begin rebuilding when we're forced to answer a different question altogether:

Who are you when you're no longer who you used to be?

This conversation explores grief, identity, mental health, generational differences in our relationships with work, and why perhaps our jobs were never meant to define us in the first place.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

That termination shattered my identity. I was so caught off guard by that that I felt like I lost a part of myself. So the best thing that came out of that job was that I started to really work on well, who am I? What do I want to be known for? What am I passionate about? Like, a job is just a job.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

I'm delighted to welcome today's guest to Rupture. Dr. Loran Starr is an organizational psychologist and cultural behaviorist. Loran has experienced job loss from both sides of the desk, both as someone who's been laid off and as a chief people officer, the one doing the layoffs. This conversation explores what happens when identity becomes entangled with work. Modern culture, American culture specifically, encourages people to answer the question, who are you? With what do you do? Until something interrupts the role. A layoff, burnout, illness, retirement, restructuring, rupture. And then a different question emerges. Who are you when the role disappears? Welcome to Rupture, Laura Ann.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

I'm so thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Hey, we're fellow New Englanders now.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

And it is gorgeous out today.

SPEAKER_01 1:29

So it is. It absolutely is. So it's in the stars. Okay, so we are going to start with your personal experience being laid off, and then we'll get into the professional side. Okay. Okay, so let's start with either the first time or the worst time.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Yeah. I mean, there's so many times I've been either fired or laid off. I've got to think about that. No, right? I mean, I I think, you know, first, Wendy, I want to say that, you know, when a layoff happens or when I've been fired, I've been fortunate enough to recognize, and it's it's my husband, you know, who says it all the time. It's not you, it's business. It's not personal, it's business. It's not personal, but it still stings. I was gonna say, does it feel that way? No, it feels very, very personal. I mean, I think about the first time, the first time I was fired.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Okay, let's go to that.

SPEAKER_00 2:21

Because that was like that really shaped, I think, my approach uh in this to burn, you know, in this crazy time. Um, the first time I was fired, I was working for an organization that did me wrong. Did me wrong. Right? I was going for promotion and you know that yes, I was female. They wanted to hire a male because it was an all all boys club. I get that. Well, one thing, you know, if you know me, I'm a freaking disruptor. Like it's not that I gently rock the boat, I will flip that boat over. And then, right, and I was young. I I right, I was young. I was like, well, screw that. Like, I notified the EEOC. I mean, like, I was like ringing the bell, and then the company fired me. And I think what really caught me off guard is how shocked I was that they fired me.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Well, I was gonna ask you, like, what's what was the most surprising thing? So the most surprising thing was that they fired you?

SPEAKER_00 3:14

They like that I was surprised they fired me. Like, I remember that, like I was meeting with you know, my quote unquote manager at that time. I even brought them a coffee, right? Sat down and and out of his mouth comes, because I've never been fired or laid off before, human resources is on the line with you.

SPEAKER_01 3:33

That's always the first clue, right?

SPEAKER_00 3:36

From my performance review? Okay. Still not, still not clicking. Still not clicking. And and I mean, I just sat there dumbfounded, like really dumbfounded. Like I was like, what? You're firing me? And then I and then I got really, you know, then I started really taking out on myself. What happened? You know, like I came home, I was, you know, very, very upset, and then looking for that job. Like, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was like, I was shocked. I I actually went through like the whole grieving process in like all the steps. Yeah, all the steps in like two weeks. Like it would like my poor husband didn't know who to expect in the morning. You know, was I gonna be really sad and mopey? Was I gonna be angry?

SPEAKER_01 4:24

When you lost the job, it's income, it's identity, it's a network, there are all kinds of things. What did you think you were losing?

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Yeah, I think you know, it's so yeah, yes. I mean, yes, definitely income. Like all of a sudden, you know, the income gets short. But that's that's not what stung. It was, it was my identity. Like, like what I couldn't get over at first was they fired me. Like the person that, you know, works, you know, 80 hours a week, and the person that, you know, is all in and and working for their, you know, their patients. And yeah, I was so caught off guard by that that I felt like I lost a part of myself.

SPEAKER_01 5:02

So it is identity.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

Yeah, it is, it is partly our identity. And I think it's because we spend so much time there.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

So I so it's time in the workplace, but it's also what I mentioned in the intro. It's our identities are fused with the workplace, right? I mean, that's how we define ourselves. So I I I certainly know how I felt the first time it happened to me, but like that how did that identity piece feel to you?

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, right. Like yeah, I started questioning myself. And this is why I say like that termination was so pivotal and so I'm so lucky it happened.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Why is that?

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Because I came to realize that the identity of me in that position was not who I am. Right? Like, like I kept going back to I can't believe they fired me. And and and I really had to sit back and go, why was that so surprising? Why well I'm like, because I know where all the bodies are buried. I ain't getting this company in a shit ton of trouble. And I did. Right? Like, like, right? Like I was like, what the like there's an educational moment here once once I got through the first two weeks and then was like, well, what am I gonna what am I gonna do next? Who do I want to be next?

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Okay, before before we go to who you want to be next, I just want to stay with where you were for a second. Because were there red flags that you saw before you actually heard, but were like, I can't hear you. I don't see these. Did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 6:34

Oh my god. Like, like after like I I'm a huge fan of postmortem, right? After thanks to the military, thanks to my medical career. Like, I'm like, okay, so like you know, three months later I sit back and I go, okay, let's see how I miss this. And and my I really think it was my ego. That's how I missed it. Like, well, they won't fire me. They won't find like I'm their top freaking rep. They won't fire me. I'm where the money is, right? I'm an influencer. I've got a following. They won't fire me. It was my ego. Uh, and that was a huge lesson. And I think, right, being young and being terminated, actually, I don't think it really matters the age. We tie so much of our identity and ego into the organization. It's not healthy.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

No, it's not healthy.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Because you start, right? All of a sudden there's blinders that like, and and I think I'm pretty developed. I think I'm pretty right. I mean, uh, I know this stuff. This is what I tell some of my clients. Like, you've got blinders on. I had these huge blinders. They they won't fire me. I'm their number one rep. They don't care.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

But you're right, the ego gets in the way, right? Like, even if you see the science.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

That was like that was like lesson number one. Uh, after the fact, you know, when I did my postmortem, I was like, first off, like, why wouldn't they fire me? Like, whoa, check that out. And were there red flags? There were red flags six months before I even applied for the position.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:02

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

There were there cognitive dissonance.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

Right? Exactly. Like, I'm like, I can't believe I said that. Or I can't believe I did that. I always touted myself as someone that reads the room and is so self-aware and so actualized. And what I found in that termination, I actually wasn't.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

That'll that'll actually chip away your identity too, right? If you prided yourself on, I can read a room, I can tell the signs, I can and then you well, did you miss them or did you choose to ignore them? Because they're two different things, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

I missed them. I do think at that point I missed them. Like I true, I just did not have the level ego coming back in, right? I didn't have the same level of awareness that I have today. Unfortunately, even six months later, looking at that organization, I was like, Yeah, I would have fired me like six months ago. Like, like, wow, this is really surprising that I didn't know this was coming.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

And it was surprising that I chose not to have anything following up that pipeline. Right. Like, I I always well, like, I always prided myself on, you know, being uh being ready, like be a like a Boy Scout, right? Always prepared.

SPEAKER_02 9:16

Always prepared, okay.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

And yet here I was going, huh, I don't even know how to apply for a job. Like what do I what do I do now? So that was, you know, that was but but like I said, from a personal identity, it that termination shattered my identity. The identity being out there for people to see, not me. Oh, so okay, all right.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Yeah, so all right, so how you're introducing billionaires too. So this is the performance identity as opposed to like the personal identity. Your actual identity.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yes. Yes, right. Like, I'm like, huh. Like I was really like, you know, that's what it showed me that that deficit that what I'm showing people here isn't really who I am. I was not authentically LaRan. Well, I'm sure that company was that they didn't fire me because the authentic LaRan came out loud and clear. And now I'm like, if you yeah, like this is it.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Right. But it because as I was processing, I started to take ownership and stock of what I had done. And I think women, we don't do this when we're right, we're so thankful we're given a job. We're so thankful that we're getting a salary. We're so thankful, right? If you're as right, if you're if you're a uh Gen Xer, we've gone through the whole phases, right? To the outrage of not getting paid the same. Right. Sitting back now and going, like, who is Loren? Who where are my skills? What did I do really well here? And so I started to create just, you know, and I'm a huge fan of journaling. If you saw my desk, I have like four journals on my desk. I'm always, there's always a journal nearby that I write stuff into. But I started, you know, really digging that apart and going, geez, what did I do for what was so great? Like, why not Loran? What was so great that I did that they wouldn't dare think of hiring me? It's a great question to ask. Yes, right. And but as I started listing it out, I had done a lot for this company in the five years that I was there. I've sold a lot, I've developed people. Like, as I started writing it out, I'm like, I've done a lot here. What have I done here? So that that shift of I've done a lot here for the company. What has the company done for me?

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

And that's not just from a salary lens, that's also from a developmental lens. Like, what have they done for me? And the scales didn't measure up. And that's what's you know, like, yeah. Yeah, you know, when I thought about when I was a disruptor in the room, people didn't like that. And I had to start really thinking about that. Like when I'd push back, like, like I got I got one award and and they were all joking around, well, you know, Loran had the most speaking programs this year. Of course she's number one in that. And it was ha ha, funny, funny, ha ha, until I was just so sick and tired of hearing it. Like the only reason why. Did it just like that you did it or how you did it? Yeah, that I did, right? So the how, that, it was the that? It was very much, I just felt like they were they were taking away my win. And in the middle of the meeting, I stood up and I said, Listen up, fuckers. Oops, I can swear on the show. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, it's this is this is totally safe space. Like i if you wanted to be number one, you too could have booked the programs. You didn't. That's on you.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Do you think you misread the culture?

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Oh, absolutely. Oh, this was an old boys club. You put Laurent and an old you put a younger Loran and an old boys club because I had been in that. I did very, very well coming out of the military. But you see, what was happening, I think, is Loran Loran was starting to come through. Like the old, like the younger Loran never would have said that in a meeting. The older Loran's just like, you know, fuck you. I busted my ass. Like half the country can't sell this drug, and I'm fucking killing it. And I'm going on another trip. And right, and I was like, and you're gonna try to take it away from me because all you penises have an issue with that. Remember, this is back in the early 90s, so there was that warfare going on. But I think more importantly, in sitting back, I'm like, that's Loran. Like that, like standing up for what's right, that's Lorent. And so the best thing that came out of that job was that I then started to embrace Loran. Like I then started to really work on, well, who am I? What do I want to be known for? Uh, what am I passionate about? Like a job is just a job. My friends, a job is just a job. They are not your BFFs, right? Like you, unless you only like they're not a freaking family. Oh, you don't belong to an organization, my friends. You yeah, great that they've got a culture that's inclusive, but you don't belong to that culture. Right. And and it's just a job, it's a means to an end, it's a way to, right? And hopefully you get some joy and fulfillment from it. But you may not be at that point right now that you're getting that fulfillment, right? Like you, I mean, come on, I sold pharmaceuticals for 15 years. Was that my lifelong calling? No, but it made me a shit ton of money real quick. And that's what I needed coming out of the military and college and right, pay off those bills, get our house. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I'm now at that point where when I got terminated, that was like right at that 15-year mark. And then came that question of, well, who am I? What do I want to do? What mark do I want to make? Do I want to make a mark? Like I have friends. Okay, let's. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

Let's pause here because this is really critical what you're saying right here. Because by every definition that we use on this, uh, on this project, what you went through your term first termination was a rupture, right? It absolutely wrenched your life into before and after. And the after version of you was not the same as the before version.

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Not at all. Right? Not at all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

And the next place we go once once we establish that this is a rupture that's happened, right? And and and the emerging you is different, the next question we always ask is, okay, so what systems failed you, right? So the employment system failed you, obviously. But beyond that, it sounds like identity failed.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

A big, big time. Mental health, they were there were some mental health issues that came up. I mean, uh, right, if we're gonna put it out on the table, one day I'll put it out on the table. You know, I'm like, am I better off dead to my kids? Because they'd get the insurance money.

unknown 15:47

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

Yeah. Like you went there, let's just fucking go there. Because I'm not alone in that.

unknown 15:55

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Right. I'm not alone in that. I mean, I don't know why.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Not everyone's brave enough to say it.

SPEAKER_00 15:59

Yeah, that right, not a lot. People don't want to talk about that. But yeah, I, you know, yeah, depression became a thing. Depression became right where I was like, geez, you know, I how yeah, I mean, it got pretty dark.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

You have to you hadn't had depression before?

SPEAKER_00 16:16

I had postpartum with my kids. So I've always been aware of that, but then getting fired, I mean, it was a huge blow to my ego, my identity. Also, right, the the income I was bringing in was needed. So, you know, I I think at that point it's like, well, crap, like what what the hell? So, yeah, even my mental right, and and the the mental health system would have failed someone else.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Yeah. So I'm thankful that I had postpartum depression because I was able to identify the signs really quick when I started, like when those crazy thoughts and the negative tracks that we have in our head, like when they started getting loud, I was like, whoa, what the heck? Like part of me was like, Yes, I believe you, I believe you, I'm horrible, I'm horrible, blah, blah, blah. And then there's the other side of me that's like, hello, take a deep breath. This is your hormones, or this is, you know, this is depression seeking back in. Let's let's immediately get on the phone with my doctor. Yeah. And and I remember calling my doctor and I was like, all right, so here's what we're going to do. Like I took control of it because I had to take control of it postpartum with my son.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Right. You're it was familiar enough.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

So it was familiar enough. I'm not sure. I'm not sure the system is equipped to handle anything right now. I mean, it's falling apart. It's just falling apart. I mean the mental health system. Mental health system. And then you factor in, you know, this the workforce trauma that's now going on. You know, we could do a whole other show on that, Wendy, you know, talking about, you know, the traumatic workforce or the traumatized workforce, which is what we are currently knee deep in right now.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

We're gonna do an episode on that.

SPEAKER_00 18:06

Yeah.

unknown 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

You'll come back for that later.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

Absolutely, because we are knee deep in that.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Oh, I to couldn't agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Right, but it but what do you do with that? Would yeah. They I mean there's whole issues there. But jumping back to your question about systems that failed, I think you know what my my my work system failed me.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Tell me what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

All of a sudden I was person non grata with the people that I was working, right? This was a big lesson.

SPEAKER_01 18:36

Okay. I was gonna ask you that about the social system failure, which a lot of us have experienced after losing a job.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

And and and I think I don't think there's a difference between men and women in the workplace. There is. Most men, not all, but most men can leave their work friends at work. They don't become friends, they're work acquaintances. Right. Where women, because we're such social creatures, we go into the workplace and we create relationships with our co-workers or or our team. So when you get fired, you're not only letting down yourself, you're letting down your entire team that you've left behind.

SPEAKER_03 19:15

Right.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

And then does that team right then step up and support you, right? So it's almost it's like a divorce, right? Where where, you know, sitting back, you know, I get a call from someone I hadn't heard from, and they're like, oh my God, your name was pulled through the trash today by so and so. And I'm like, but this is somebody that I mentored, this is somebody I developed. I can't believe that. And I and right, so your whole that that work arm falls apart. And if you're sitting back and saying, oh, that would never happen. Let me tell you right now, yes, it does happen. It happens every time an employee leaves an organization, whether they're laid off, whether they're terminated, or especially if they've quit, there's negativity said about you.

SPEAKER_01 19:59

Uh agree. And did that how much of a betrayal did that feel like?

SPEAKER_00 20:04

That probably stung the most. That hurt the most. And I've seen it, I've been laid off a handful of times. You know what? It still happens. Like it still stings. I wish I could say it doesn't sting. I just got laid off. And and the person that I brought into the organization and I supported, and I've been supporting this person for, you know, 12, 15 months and mentoring. I don't hear from this person anymore.

unknown 20:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Like I'm person on grata. And I'm just like, are you freaking kidding me?

SPEAKER_01 20:37

Like well, and you and I talked about this when we were we were catching up last week. And one of the things that I have found startling every time I lost my job, and it's happened sort of every single time I've lost my job. And I was also in a very volatile industry, so layoffs were were kind of normal. The people who you were sure would be there to help you, the people who always said, I am here for you, whatever you need, they disappear. They ghost you. Yes. And then the then people who actually do help come out of the woodwork. They're people you would never have expected. Did you have that experience?

SPEAKER_00 21:08

I have that, I've had that experience. Anytime I've been laid off or terminated, yeah. This I I'll I'll get the strangest of calls. Like, I can't believe and I'm here for you. And I'm just like, I we've spoken twice. But that tells me that I made an impact there, right? So, so what I want your listeners to start thinking as they're moving forward, if they've recently been laid off or terminated, or they will be in the future because it's inevitable, death, taxes, layoffs has become my new theme song. And and and sitting back is how do you learn from this situation? But how do you not take it as personal? And what are you doing right now to prepare yourself for that? That emotional landslide? Like, do you and and and here's what I found after my first termination going to my next company. I'm working with them, but I'm now working a little bit. More strategic and a little bit smarter. And I'm also becoming much more authentic, Loran. Like, even in the interview, I was like, I'm gonna swear, you don't like it? I'm not the fucking person you should hire. Like and I'm gonna challenge you. Like, right? Like I became very comfortable in my skin. Like, you know what? I never want to be caught off guard like this. If if you fire me and you say, oh, it's because you were disruptive, what what the fuck did you think you were getting?

unknown 22:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Is the response. But if you but what you what you said is really important because like when you when you got your first job, you were probably and you interviewed, you were probably not authentically yourself, right? You were shaping yourself to what you thought they wanted to hear, right? We we've all done it.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

Oh, I lied on that personality assessment like there was no tomorrow. The alarm goes off at seven o'clock in the morning. Are you going to get up? I'm thinking no, but I said yes, absolutely. In fact, I'm up at 6 30. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:57

But but right, you were trying to give them the answers that you knew they wanted to hear because you wanted the job, and as women, we're grateful for everything you said is true. But by the but after the rupture, right, the new Loran was like, this is who I am. I mean, if you fire me, if you hire me and fire me for being the person I said I was in the interview, then that's shame on you. And that's it is yeah, that's very different.

SPEAKER_00 23:19

That is very, very different. You know, and I make sure that, you know, you look at my LinkedIn page, you can tell who I am. There's no holds bar about that. No. And and I and what I found from that is now I started attracting companies that were looking for disruptors. And I think that's the, you know, and and I God, I wish I could tell you, listen, look, this just happened at week two, I was done grieving. And no, this took, we're we're talking getting fired again from a dental company that I knew was coming.

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Oh, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Right now, that's right. So I see the developmental, oh, I knew, oh, I knew that was coming. You learned that was coming. What I didn't know was coming, that I was going to be betrayed by my manager. And I made sure she got fired too. I knew where the bodies are, right? So all of a sudden I'm like, ooh, this is more like playing a game of survivor.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Like a lot of it is, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 24:13

Right, while still being authentically me. So, right, so I got let go from that job. Then I picked up, you know, then I picked up a contract, and that lasted three months before I was asked to leave. I'll own it. Yeah. Because guess what? Guess what? And and as a leader now, when I asked the question, have you ever been fired? And they've been in industry for 10 years, and the answer is no, then you're like everybody else. I don't want you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's interesting that you say that because I, you know, I came from the agency world. Yep. For many, for much of my career before I went to the corporate side. And I know that if if you looked at an when when we were interviewing, when I was in leadership at the age on the agency side, if you looked at someone's resume and they had 10 years or more at the same agency, we didn't look at it and say, oh, great, you were loyal and you grew. We were like, what's wrong with you? Yeah. What's wrong with you? Because this was a volatile industry where you needed to move. Yes. For a lot of reasons. And we we definitely looked askance at people who did stay in one place. It's it's different in other industries, I know. But part of it is also understanding, you know, yeah. There I I think everyone can benefit from making change and learning. Right. Every five years. Well, yeah. You also are are professionally trained in all this. How long should people stay in a role?

SPEAKER_00 25:32

You know what? I like the five-year marker. And I I will say this, I will say this here, right? Especially for the C-suite. And the C suite, if you're, you know, an executive, five years and then get out because you've done all you can do in five years, and now you're moving into stead just following the flow.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Steady state.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

And when you're at that level of leadership, your job is to be making impact and change every day.

SPEAKER_02 25:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:58

And and we don't want that steady state.

unknown 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

You know, that that I agree with you. I'll talk in leadership and in and and honestly, if you haven't been promoted or raised up in your role within two years, it's not the company for you if that's what you're looking for. Right. Because two years, that's that's you should be moving up either developmentally or role-wise, some cross-training. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

I agree with you. In leadership, five years. So I was I was a chief marketing officer, and one of the things I learned was that it's really a three-year gig. Because the first year, you're understanding what's going on there, right? And you're thinking through what are the changes you want to make. And you do the things that, you know, it was funny, I always wondered why CMOs did the all did the same things. They always fired their agencies and they did a re-org. And then I became a CMO and I did exactly that, and I understood why. So year two was putting the changes in place. Year three was letting all of that sort of settle in. And then unless you decided to blow the whole thing up again, which many leaders do, there was no reason to say. You'd done what you could, and it was time to move on.

SPEAKER_00 27:10

It's yeah, you know, it's so funny. I think we we are we are continuously confusing tenure for skill.

SPEAKER_01 27:21

Yeah, tenure for talent. Not the same thing, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:24

It is so not the same thing. But I agree with you. I go into an organization, you know, I fine-tune and I write, or yes, it's it's a it's a light or sometimes a heavy re-org, depending on what I'm taking over. You look for your gaps, you look, right? You start plugging that stuff up in year one, year two. Now you're implementing change organizationally wide. And and and, you know, I think by year three, now I'm taking on bigger parts of the organization from a strategic lens and driving change. Year four, same thing. Year five, succession planning. I'm getting my next person up and running because the job of the C-suite is to always have fresh eyes.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Right. But they don't know why, right?

SPEAKER_00 28:06

They don't know why. Yeah, yeah. And I, you know, I I I got some percolation going on up in my head about that.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yeah, I wrote a whole book about how systems don't want to change. Systems just do not want to change.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

But they say they want to change.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

And and we know that's propaganda. Systems are threatened by change.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:24

And they're threatened by individuals who are trying to push change. Not all. I mean, it's not, I mean, there are there are enlightened organizations who do this better, but in a lot of organizations, workplace ones, but also other kinds of organizations, systems just resist change. But I want to say you have segued us really seamlessly from one side of the desk to the other. So now I'm going to take you from the person who was laid off to what happened in your role as your roles like chief people officer where you were responsible for the layoffs.

SPEAKER_02 28:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

Talk about that. Like what is that experience like for the person doing it, for the employees, and what did you learn from your experience as someone who had been laid off? How did you apply that?

SPEAKER_00 29:02

Yeah. So that's a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_01 29:04

You know, it's rolled up in one.

SPEAKER_00 29:05

But no, it'll it'll all come together. It really will. I think, you know, I look, I I hate terminating employees as much as the next one, but I'm really good at it. And and and and I say that like tongue-in-cheekly, but it is so true because I make sure the employee is ready to know this is going to happen. And and and I've learned that from, so let's talk about layoffs first and foremost from my own layoffs. There was nothing there to catch me. So I make sure that when we're doing a a larger scale layoff, right, that we know our people know they right, the people that are going to get laid off are aware they're getting laid off. I make sure that you know that their managers allow time in their schedule. Because you usually you know, like a good company will give you 60 days. And in certain states, they have to give you more. So it depends on what state you're in. But you you can typically get 60-day notice, sometimes maybe 30-day notices if it's just a handful of people. Um, but that 30 days, I ensure that my recruiters are now working with their people, you know, working with those that are getting laid off, doing resume review, doing right, making sure their LinkedIn profile is up to date. I I I really, from being laid off myself and going through that emotional turmoil, even the layoff component of it, uh, I do very differently. You know, where it this is a conversation with the employee versus here's your letter. This is, you know, this is a conversation with the teams and the managers. Uh much more communication around it, that it's not anything that they did, letters of recommendation. I mean, I really try to put all that in place on a layoff.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

That's huge, because not everyone does that. Not everyone does that. That is that is not like uh it should be a best practice, but it isn't.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

Yes, it should be a best practice. But then in fact, I it it's gotten, I've gotten so good. Like I have a few contacts that can do all of that from a consulting side. And when a layoff's coming up, I'm like, okay, so here's the layoff. For the money we bring them in, that it's chump change.

unknown 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Compared to right, what we would have to spend marketing-wise to continue our reputation. Or so let's bring this consulting firm in and they do all this coaching and placement. And you know, it's it's really important. I think organizations forget this. They're human. And as much as an organization doesn't like change, neither does the employee you're laying off.

SPEAKER_02 31:37

Right.

SPEAKER_00 31:38

Even more so. Because you don't know what's going on out here in in their home life. So I think we owe it to our employees to have a lifeline for them. To have some sort of yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Well, so uh it it it sounds like a lot of the way you you do it now or or did it what is a product of the experience you had when you were terminated and these things were not in place. Yes? Is that right?

SPEAKER_00 32:07

I mean, it I think, you know, it the way I do it now is because of the way I have been laid off in the past. Yeah. Yeah. And the way I have handled. Yeah. Like I was like, this doesn't work. So what would work? And then I just created a you're like, I'm like, you should be doing this, this, this, and I tell it to everybody. I'm like, this is look, it's not rocket science. You just have to want to do it. You just have to want to do it.

SPEAKER_01 32:32

Um, you have to want to do it, and you have to know what doing it well looks like.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

What well looks like. Yeah, the last, the last layoff I had was with a uh healthcare organization in Boston, Massachusetts, and we had to lay off quite a few employees, and we gave them six months notice, and if they weren't absorbed back into the company, they had jobs. Like at the end of the day, I was like, I can sleep at night because I know that it we're not a layoff isn't because of anything you did. It is a pure business decision.

SPEAKER_01 33:02

Even if it feels personal and you know how personal.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

And it's gonna feel personal, but it's a business decision. Believe it or not, we didn't even consider your name. Like we like it's not like we're sitting down and going, so which one's off these lists? It's like, nope, that's not how we're doing it. You know?

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

Yes. You know, a lot of it's like uh territory or knowledge base, or yeah, it has not it really has nothing to do with you, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 33:31

Is better and worse in you know, it's both. It's it feels better and worse at the same time. There's nothing about a layoff that can make you feel good, but it's not personal. Doesn't it to the employee, it's always personal. It's always personal to the employee. Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

And it's right, and and laying someone off is traumatic for the person that's doing the layoff.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Talk I I wanted you to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

It's not a good feeling. It's not, especially if you're laying off people that you know. Like you don't like just know them. You've seen them around the office or whatnot. I mean, it when that person, you know, uh tears up or is like, oh my god, what am I gonna do? It pulls it it it's hard. It is really hard to remain here and not jumping in and becoming the rescuer.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Which we're so I because we've both been so tempting. It's all it's almost like you have to sit on your hands to stop from hugging them.

SPEAKER_00 34:30

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

Right? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

Yes. Yes, and hell, I don't even sit on my hands anymore. I hug them. I I I can't like that's that's that empathetic side of me. And that's not gender neutral. I've seen men, I've seen women, like uh I've seen it all. Yeah. I mean, we we're human, we respond to emotions. If you have a leader that's promoting to emotions, emotions.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

We respond with emotions first. Yeah. One of the things that we talk about in marketing a lot is that all all human decision making, and this is backed up by behavioral economics. Yes. All human decision making is emotional. Everything is justified rationally. Like post facto, it's rational, but it's all all the decision making is informed by emotion. There's no question about it. Absolutely. So you had you had we when we were talking the other day, you brought up the idea of sort of the different generational cohorts in the workplace and how they respond differently.

SPEAKER_00 35:23

And I think right now we've got baby boomers, we have baby geners, Gen Xers, millennials. Millennials, Z.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Uh Z. And I guess the two waves of Z.

SPEAKER_00 35:35

Yeah, the two waves of Z. And we have alphas that, right, I call them my cuspers. They're not really in the workforce yet. There's people in high school.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

But they're coming.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

But they're coming.

SPEAKER_01 35:44

They're coming.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

They're coming.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

But we have a lot of different that's a lot of different cohorts to have in a workplace. Yeah, it's crazy. And every demo, I mean, obviously we know they're not perfect, but boomers do respond differently to things than millennials. Could you talk about like the layoff process and the role of work in people's lives too? Because it gets back to sort of where we started, where we were defined. Our value is our productivity, which is a problem for us as a society. But that that that is a hard thing. And certainly for certain demographic cohorts like boomers, that is a very, very hard thing to undo. But can you talk about the differences across the generations and how they respond to things?

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah, and I think this, you know, the Wendy, you're hitting on something that very few people, very few leaders, managers, whatever, whether there's a layoff, a fire, a promotion, or any of that stuff that we we're thinking about in the back of our mind. We need to do, as a society, much better in the workplace understanding the differences because there are very strong differences. And we talk about our boomers, right? You, your boomers, I call them the generation most likely to die after retiring because they live to work. The question that comes to my mind when I look at, I just went through this with someone that we, it was a small group of people that had to be laid off, and I had two people in there that were boomers. And I'm like, okay, so what can we offer them to keep them busy, to keep them still engaged, to keep them, because they live to work. They should have retired. They're in their 70s. Like, you should be retiring, but they haven't. Now we're gonna lay them off. What is that gonna look like for them? Oh, yeah. Because the last thing, the last thing I ever want is, you know, is somebody that's that their identity is so infused into the workplace that it dings their mental health when they leave.

unknown 37:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

You know, and and I've been really good at I've got tons of uh volunteer organizations that I can connect anybody up with that, you know, is looking for that connection. But that's that what's that's what we find with our boomers. I tend to find with our millennials, millennials, we're still a little bit egocentric. So we still see the we you're letting me go. I'm like, um, yeah, we are right. And so I I try to, I I think with the with the millennials, we need to be conscious of the fact that millennials, not millennials, excuse me, Gen Xers, extremely independent, are so used to nobody supporting them. They're the latchkey kids. They were latchkey kids. Yeah. This was the generation of latchkey kids. Yeah, like we didn't do coaching with them. Like probably uh probably one of the most unathletic group in the generational ski, you know, schematic. Uh we didn't have these soccer clubs and and all of that. We didn't, we just didn't have it. It was marching band, or you played for the high school. There weren't even junior high teams for Gen Xers. So there's that. So they're used to being all by themselves. Like that I'm like, your theme song is all by myself. And and I understand that.

unknown 38:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

Millennial Gen Xers, we do a horrible job, you know, just being vulnerable in that situation. Like, oh, just got laid up, gotta suck it up, gonna suck it up. Okay, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry. You know what? When you start telling yourself, don't cry, don't cry, don't cry, you're increasing your cortisol, which increases the fat around your heart, which right, there's there's so much out there on that. You're not doing yourself a huge favor, just freaking cry. Like it's okay, we're human.

SPEAKER_02 39:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

When we look at leadership, leadership is mostly what right now? Millenni uh Gen X.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Gen X, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:27

So as a leader, we also have to remember that it's okay if they cry. Like sure. Like, you know, take yeah. The the worst, the the worst thing you can say to a Gen Xer is, you know what? We're laying you off. It's okay. You've got this, you'll bounce back, you're awesome. It's like the worst thing. And I can't tell you how many times I've heard that. Like when I've sat in layoff meetings and and the manager or leader lets their people go there, like, but you know what, Tari, you're you're a really good employee. This has nothing to do with it, you are gonna bounce back, you're gonna find a job that's better for you. Such okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:02

Okay, let's take a detour for one second because what you just said is super, and then we can get back to the demographic demographic cohorts. So, one of the things we talk about a lot on this show, especially because we deal with a lot of healthcare issues on the show, because it started with the whole, you know, brain injuries and all of that. We have a recovery culture in this country, and it doesn't only apply to healthcare, it also applies to job loss. People are expected to bounce back quickly, to recover on schedule. And if they don't, if we don't, we are made to feel that we have failed. The same thing applies, right? Mm-hmm if you've been laid off. I mean, people need time, and and I felt this too, having been been laid off. Like, you need time to process and recover from what you've been through, and only you can decide. I mean, the financial thing is obviously a looming thing. And for a lot of us, we went back sooner than we were ready to because we needed to support our household and our and our families. But there is a pressure to like recover, bounce back from everything. And you would see that from the, you know, from your chief people officer work as well as your academic work. But on the healthcare side, what that does is it makes people feel guilty that they can't recover sooner. Yeah. So you you take a difficult situation and then you keep layering on guilt and shame. And I can and it feels like the same thing happens in this context, even yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

Absolutely. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 41:26

Anything we can do to help that?

SPEAKER_00 41:28

I you know what? I I think just having these types of conversations. You know, I I I I just spoke recently at an HR conference, and I'm like, guys, the the average job, the average time it takes for a an HR person to find a new position after layoff is nine to twelve months. Nine to twelve months. So it's not you, it's the industry. But what are you gonna do in those nine to twelve months, right? That's that I'm like, but what are you gonna do in those nine to twelve months? Because like that's a gift. And I get it, the income is an issue, but you can apply for unemployment and right, they I which I know is a fraction of what you're getting. Trust me, I know it's a fraction of what you're getting. But what like what are we gonna do with this, you know, uh nine to twelve months? Right. And it's it's very rare that someone, you know, gets laid off today and has a job tomorrow. Right. You know, that person that gets laid off today and has a job tomorrow, find out how they're networking because that's how it happens.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Exactly. Well, and we're also right now in a low hire, low fire environment.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

So people are having a really hard time getting I mean, I I do think that organizations and I'm sure some of the the org, you know, some of the organizational leaders listening right now might be going, oh, don't go there, but I'm going to. I do believe that when we hire on an employee, it is like a contract, even though there are employees that will. When we terminate that contract, there should be some cushion. And right, and and and it maybe it's you know treated like a layoff, that there's a severance package for everyone. That's pretty standard, whether you've been terminated or laid off.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Right.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Like if there was that cushion in place, that servants, you know, severance package. You've been here a year, you get two weeks' salary, you've been here, you know, whatever, whatever, then we will be terminating the right people and not need right layoffs.

unknown 43:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 43:27

Well, and you're you're right about severance, though, because severance softens the blow. Softens the blow. Financially, but also emotionally too. It gives because you were saying, like the, you know, the nine months, what are you doing with the nine months? If you're worried about how you're going to pay your mortgage, you're not going to be at your best thinking about how to use that time. But if you've got the cushion of a severance package, regardless of how you're how the role ended, it gives people the time and the space. We're not great at that. I mean, certain companies are good, certain industries are good, but We are terrible.

SPEAKER_00 44:01

We're horrible. We're terrible at this. You know, I just had a role that I was I was let go from. And you know, the question came, did you have you know what's your severance package look like? I'm like, I don't have one. Well, didn't you negotiate that in? I'm like, no. No, I I I didn't. Should it have to be negotiated in?

SPEAKER_01 44:23

Unfortunately, it does. And I might be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 44:26

That was my takeaway from that layoff. I was like, you know what? We need to start advocating. I need to start advocating more for a shift in that perspective. Because it, you know, you lay off a God, employees that and we have a lot of, you know, we've got millions of these employees that are making, you know, under 60,000 a year. That's food for their kids.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Correct. Correct.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Like as a society, we kind of suck at taking care of each other. I'm all for capitalism. I am not a socialist. I'm all for capitalism. But there it has to be capitalism with benefits. Like it right. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:04

Capitalism doesn't have to be cruel. It doesn't have to be cruel. We have a uniquely cruel form of it, but it doesn't have to be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:09

It doesn't have to be crucial.

SPEAKER_01 45:10

I agree with you.

SPEAKER_00 45:11

And but yet it is, it it it is. It's very uh it's very cutthroat. It's very, it doesn't need to be. But anyways, it doesn't.

SPEAKER_01 45:20

I I want to go back. I want to go back to the demo the generational cohorts. Yes. So I had a question about Gen X, and then I wanted to move to a little younger. So boomers identity tied very, very tightly to work. Gen X identity relationship to work, how tight was how tight is that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:37

So this is what's boomer? This is really cool. No, this is really cool. So your Gen Xers, we work to live instead of living to work, right? Live to work. We want jobs that pay really well so we can buy toys, so we can have the rental cottage. So we can have the right that I mean it's it's so much more, yeah, like shiny bling syndrome. Until, until, you know, and and I think we're just starting to hit that downturn. So you're gonna start that, you're gonna start seeing that change as the as Gen Xers have gotten older. Now a lot of us, right? We're at that age, we're like, no, now I want to make an impact, right? Instead of I have a purpose. But oh my god, when I was like 20 to you know, 40, you know, we were that double income no kids, and I was in sales, and there was a reason I was in sales. It was a lot of money. I was like, this is freaking awesome. So when we think about our millennials now, our millennials are now in management leadership positions as well. Um and and that's that's great, that's where we need them to be because they're gonna start replacing um the the Generation X. Our our millennials are a coaching generation. So say more about that. Yeah, so if I take a step back, Boomers raised the Gen Xers and the Gen Xers, we were latchkey kids. Like we were like the American dream, 2.5 kids. If you did cut a kid in half, that would be like the perfect family. Yeah, right. Like we were, we were like it was expected that we that they were gonna have us. And whether they wanted kids or not, right? Right? You weren't, yeah, if you weren't a mom, it was a thing for for the booming generation. Like that's the greatest gift to mankind, but they weren't there for us.

SPEAKER_02 47:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:33

So then Gen Xers, we have kids and we call them the Millennials, and some right, so we we see that split there, and they're moving into the Gen Z. But but what we find with the Millennials is that they're given everything when they're kids.

SPEAKER_01 47:53

The helicopter generation.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

The helicopter generation, but they're also taught, right, because they hear their parents bitching about how much time they're spending at work making money, that they learn really quickly that that do they want that balance. Like I don't want to work as hard as my parents. That's what we hear from you know millennials. I don't I never wanted to work as hard as my as my parents did. I want to retire. They're the early retirement generation, right? I want to retire when I'm 50. You know, I'm I'm look, I'm a Gen Xer. I I I want to retire probably never. I just don't yeah, right. It's what shaped me. But our our millennials, they love coaching. They they love, they've been coached their whole life. Remember, they're the everybody joked, oh, they're the participation, you know, medal. Yeah, the participation trophies. Team sports blew up in this generation.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

It really did. I mean, yeah, social media hits the generation much later. Gen, you know, social media is more Gen Z and now Gen Alpha. But yeah, they there's that explosion of sports and sports teams. Right. They're wiki competitive, but they're really good at not showing it.

SPEAKER_03 49:05

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 49:06

Because they're used to playing on team sports.

SPEAKER_01 49:08

So they're not showing themselves individually.

SPEAKER_00 49:10

Yeah, yeah, they're not showing themselves individually, uh, which is really interesting. You know, the best thing you can do when you're laying off a millennial is make sure that there is coaching support in play.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

Right. That makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 49:24

Same thing when you're firing someone. Yes, definitely. Have that in play.

SPEAKER_01 49:29

Okay, I we I want to move on. We have two final questions for you. I think with on Gen Z, I think we've talked about this and there's a lot of data to suggest this. Gen Z, they're more cynical and they have much more reason to be cynical. They've watched a lot of this stuff and they look at these situations like, why do people work this way? It doesn't make sense. But they they really want their value in in the world to be much more than just who they are as the job they do, the role they're in, the the performance. All right, let me ask you my last two questions. My last, my second last question is the whiteboard question. This is where you you mentioned a whole bunch of systems that really failed for you and you felt it when you were terminated, and you and you've seen and you've definitely seen it on the other side of the desk. You talk about mental health. There's the income piece, there's obviously the identity piece. I mean, just the severance thing you said just before. If you could, if I give you the magic whiteboard, you have no limits, no barriers, which system would you fix? And what's like the one thing you would do?

SPEAKER_00 50:31

You know, the system I would fix is yeah, I would the e I mean the easiest one, magic wand, the severance package.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Yeah.

unknown 50:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:41

Make that standard.

SPEAKER_01 50:42

You have a magic wand for this, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

Yeah, magic wand, make that standard. And it's three weeks per year.

SPEAKER_01 50:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:49

All right, three weeks for the first year, four weeks for the second year, five weeks for the yeah. But yeah, starting at three weeks, I would make that severance. That's you know, that's great.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

And that's that's it should be.

SPEAKER_00 51:01

It really should be. So that would make such a difference. It it would set the it would allow both sides to breathe a little bit and for it not to be as traumatic.

SPEAKER_01 51:10

That that's the thing. And and I do want to have you back for an epitome, an episode. What did you call the the traumatized workplace? Yeah. All right, we're gonna do that. Okay, so here's my very last question. Every guest on Rupture is offered a ministry assignment. Best guest, my country of Best Guest isan is governed by ministries. And every guest gets ministry. And the ministry I thought we would have for you is the ministry of formerly. So I was formerly a VP. I used to be this, but this whole idea of not tethering your identity so much to the job you have and the role you're in. Would you be willing to run this ministry?

SPEAKER_00 51:48

You absolutely know I would. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 51:51

Awesome.

SPEAKER_00 51:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:52

I'll send you the paperwork. It won't make sense. That's okay. In Best Guess SM, there are no wrong answers. So we're we're not super fussy about paperwork. It's okay if it's confounded. Yes, absolutely. But it'll be in the mail. It'll be in the mail. I love that. All right, thank you. Our new ministry you're formerly.

SPEAKER_00 52:06

Yes, I love that. I think, yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:08

Okay, that's the one. That's the one. That's the one. Thank you, Lauren, so much for coming on today. I mean, I think your perspective on both sides of the desk is super helpful. And we could definitely talk about this for hours. So I'm looking forward to the follow-up episodes we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_00 52:22

Yes, I agree. This has been wonderful. This has been wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.