The Lavender Lounge

Finding the Ladder

• Spectrum Medical Care Center • Season 1 • Episode 8

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What does it take to climb out of the pit? For Jericho Galindo, also known as Phoenix drag artist Gray Matter, the answer has involved a long, ongoing practice of self-care and finding meaning through art. This conversation is about what it means to keep showing up for yourself and your community.


Spectrum Medical Care Centre
Maricopa County Community Resources
LGBTQ+ Healthcare Directory
Vitalyst Health Foundation


Mental health resources:

Crisis & Suicide Prevention

  • 988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline — Call or text 988, available 24/7. LGBTQ+ individuals can still call 988 and receive caring, confidential support, though the specialized "Press 3" option is no longer available. EveryMind
  • The Trevor Project (LGBTQ+ youth ages 24 and under) — TrevorLifeline: 1-866-488-7386 (24/7) | TrevorText: Text START to 678-678 (24/7) | TrevorChat available at thetrevorproject.org/get-help AFSP
  • Trans Lifeline (by and for trans people) — 1-877-565-8860 (US), available 24/7 AFSP
  • Crisis Text Line — Text HOME to 741741, available 24/7 Human Rights Campaign
  • RAINN National Sexual Assault ...
SPEAKER_01

Hello and welcome to the Lavender Lounge. My name is Anna, and today I am with Jericho Galindo. His years of experience working as an advocate and a drag artist throughout the United States. Jericho, how are you today? Good. How are you? I am doing great. I'm so excited to have you on the podcast. Tell me about yourself. How did you come to the Phoenix area?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I always claim this, right? So I was born in California, moved pretty much right after I was born, spent a lot of time in Michigan. So I grew up in Michigan. And then my now wife was like, hey, we were like three months in dating. She was like, hey, I'm moving to Arizona. And at that part of my life, I was like, okay, let's do it. Let's take a chance. So I came here early 2016. So it's gonna be 10 years coming up in January. So that's how I got to Arizona. And those first couple years were wild, but I'm so happy to be here. I love Arizona. The community here is so beautiful. And I wasn't really too involved in Michigan and our community. So it was a nice change for me. And it really helped me grow as a gender expansive person. Like I was pretty closed off, pretty sheltered. I was sheltered ever since I grew up. So being able to come to Arizona and see like, oh my gosh, there's so many people, so many different artists, it really helped me grow as a person.

SPEAKER_01

That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. I was very thankful for that.

SPEAKER_01

Do you have a moment where you felt defined your understanding of your gender identity or gender identity in general?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, actually, which is wild because a lot of my upbringing I don't remember a whole lot. But there was one time we were at like a pool party at my family's place in California. Like we went to California every summer to go visit our family. And there was one time where I think I was starting to go through puberty, and I always had my shirt off. Always, like in the pool, always had my shirt off. And there was one moment where my father was like, You have to put a shirt on. Like you're it's happening. And I was so upset. I was so upset. And I had no idea like why I was upset, what was going on. And that is like something that I remember now of like, even as a child, was like, absolutely not. I'm not doing that. Yeah, I want to be in the pool.

SPEAKER_01

Also, why do we have to wear shirts? Honestly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So okay. Even as a child, I got it. So now that I look at that, I'm like, okay, all the puzzle pieces make sense now. But when I first started, like my physical transition, I was very much about I want to be cis-assumed. I don't know if out and proud was necessarily my focus. And that's what I really appreciate being here because it has allowed me to be as out and proud as I possibly can and like comfortable in my femininity as well as my masculinity, which I was more focused on like would it be super masculine and you know, this I don't know, type of man. And I threw all of that away because I know I can be whomever I'm supposed to be, which is really just an artist that is like welcoming of all perspectives.

SPEAKER_01

So you say you're an artist. I would love to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What's your journey with that?

SPEAKER_00

Now that I look back at my life, there's so many threads of that in my life. So I worked as an artist when I was 14. It was like my first job. So you started so early last year. Which I was very thankful. Like I remember drawing and painting ever since I could remember. My father always painted or did like something with instruments, just always doing something. So I was fortunate enough to work for an art company that was in a amusement park. And I started that, didn't know what the heck I was doing. Like I'm just uh 14 years old, just needed a job. And I worked there every summer for 10 years and really grew like 10 years of my life with that company. And then I stopped for quite some time, actually, after that. And when I came to Phoenix, I fell in love with drag again. And I knew that that was something that I wanted to do, and I've been able to grow as an artist with that. And most recently I've gone back to painting and really putting myself out there as an artist in in many capacities.

SPEAKER_01

Wow. So you sound really talented. You can paint, you're a drug artist.

SPEAKER_00

I try, I try, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Do you feel like the two are connected in any way?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. So that job I had every summer, I was a face painter, it was one portion of my job. So I was like, that directly translates sometimes in my makeup of I was just doing little cute face paints on kids, but now I get to dress myself up in drag and be this really cool king and use some of those techniques that I learned.

SPEAKER_01

That is so cool. What is your drag persona like?

SPEAKER_00

I really love to mesh the extremes. So I love being hyper masculine, but also super feminine. Sometimes I wear lashes and nails, but I love neons, but also meshing it with like okay, leather and like dark elements. I love spikes, anything with spikes, and I really love like cyberpunk elements of it.

SPEAKER_01

Love cyberpunk.

SPEAKER_00

That's so cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

How has drag impacted your understanding of or perception of gender expansiveness?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh, it has transformed it, literally. So when I first started drag, I was like, I knew that I wanted to do women's music. That was like a challenging thing for the audience and like for my peers at that time. Now it is broadly accepted, which I'm super thankful for. So that was my first like little tiptoe into okay, you're a drag king, but you're doing women's music. But then that morphed into, okay, well, now I want to wear nails, I want to do bright colors, I want to do things that I really enjoy. And I love jewelry and all sorts of, again, like spikes are different elements of that. And that really reflected in my day-to-day life of, okay, well, I'm that on stage. Why can't I bring some of those elements in my daily life? What's wrong with me wearing makeup every so often? And it really helped me understand that it is so expansive. I'm not just a trans man, I'm a trans masculine person. I don't really adhere to the binary. Even my level of thinking as far as gender and gender expression really expanded. A lot to do with my peers and colleagues in drag artistry, but in the way I got to express myself and how powerful I felt.

SPEAKER_01

How do you feel like expressing yourself in such a visible and public way? Like, how is that journey like?

SPEAKER_00

It can be really scary sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes it's hard to check into like that persona almost. Like I know that gray matter as a drag persona is so confident, but I just feel so good. And I always remember that when I'm performing, and I love connecting with people. Like you can see people light up when like when I go to a show, I love supporting shows. So being able to be on the other side of that and like see somebody light up or see somebody really excited by your number, or just the music that I'm doing, that energy exchange is like super liberating, super fun.

SPEAKER_01

That sounds beautiful. Yeah, it's it's been great. How did you create the name Gray Matter?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. What's the story behind that? Initially, it was more about challenging people because it's it's part of the brain where like deep thinking kind of happens, and I'm super introspective, all of that kind of stuff. But now it's more transformed into challenging myself. But it actually came from a song, and in the song it says, Upgrade your gray matter because one day it may matter.

SPEAKER_01

I love that.

SPEAKER_00

A friend of mine showed it to me like years and years ago. Actually, when I was working still at the art company, we would ride in together. He showed me that. It was just some like obscure song he wanted to show me, and it always stuck with me. So that's cool. My my first drag name was Valentino. So Valentino More like Rico Suave like vibes, but no, very different.

SPEAKER_01

Can you talk about your experience with gender-affirming care?

SPEAKER_00

So, gender-affirming care as me seeking care has always been challenging. Anything in the clinical space has always been really anxiety-inducing. And I've been thankful enough to be able to find a provider that treats me so incredibly well. But then on the other end of that, my drag actually helped me get into a nonprofit space where I was able to provide that care as far as like programming and support for gender expansive people. So it's been really nice as like somebody, okay, I'm super anxious when it comes to anything clinical. And now I'm working at this clinic and able to provide that. And much like with my drag, like seeing people light up in the clinical space of like I met this person, you know, at the very beginning stages of whether it was their physical transition or them just coming to realize that they're gender expansive. And oftentimes I was the first gender expansive person that they met, which was wild to me because I've had that experience. But then seeing them week over week just getting more and more excited about feeling comfortable, whatever that meant to them, getting the things that they actually needed, which was so transformative of like, okay, maybe it was just like a friendly, you know, exchange, or maybe it was gender-affirming hormone therapy, or helping them navigate the name change process in Arizona. When we kind of reformed the gender affirming program, then I was able to lead it and say, hey, we really need to remove as many barriers as possible because we know that housing and employment are like top two, right? I know that so many people that I worked with wanted gender affirming care, but they're like, okay, well, I still need to pay for all of my bills. And then on top of trying to get employment or even housing. So when we got to those levels of support services, it was like, we need a very, you know, very short intake process and limited a lot of those barriers.

SPEAKER_01

That sounds incredibly important. And it sounds like you built that program. So that is so cool.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm very proud of that.

SPEAKER_01

So tell me more about the organization. What is their name? What do they do?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I worked for then Southwest Center for about five years. It's now Prisma Community Care.

SPEAKER_01

What was like your biggest takeaway working for them?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think again, I I just grew as a person with them, being able to learn every single day about the own stigma that I had surrounding myself and like my sexual orientation, the way that I talked about sex and HIV and advocating for safer sex too. Like I learned so much about that in that space when I already thought I had like a pretty comprehensive view and understanding.

SPEAKER_01

How does your identity as a prominent drag artist in the Phoenix community intersect with your advocacy and activism?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it does in the way that I hold that responsibility really high. I know that again, I'm a trusted person, or people can somebody recently said this to me, which I felt really good about, is that I know I'm safe with you. And that's really all that I want. But also understanding that when somebody comes to me with a question or needs something, then one I can be a listening ear, but also if I have a solution or if I have a resource or if I have something for them, that I'm able to give that. Yeah. Whatever that may be. Or talk to other folks in whatever network to hopefully, you know, help somebody. But I think just being there too. But I I think understanding that I have a major responsibility and sticking true to that.

SPEAKER_01

Do you feel like having that kind of platform automatically puts you in a position of advocacy? How do you how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_00

I don't know if that's true for everybody. It definitely can be. I think that everybody does have a platform, whether they use it or not. But some people enter drag and they want they want to be more on the entertainment side, or they want to do their art and go home, and that's completely okay too. I want whomever to thrive how they want. For me, I felt a sense of fulfillment, and I felt honored because I feel like I wanted to do as much as I could for the community that helped save me in a way. Like drag is like my therapy. Drag helps me continue. This community helps me continue. So I want to give that to other people as much as possible. And also I learned so much in this process that I want others to kind of grow to. And that's not for everybody too. Because as an advocate, you're continuing to push push sometimes or be as vulnerable as possible. And that's not for everybody.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. What parts of drag do you feel like are like feel therapeutic?

SPEAKER_00

I think that connection, first and foremost, with people. As a youth, I never really felt connected with other people. I also always claim to be an introvert, which is so funny to me, because you'll see me out and about and smiling and talking to people and like on a stage, which is wild. That I used to change in the bathroom for gym class. Now I'm out and like on a stage, and now I'm here. You know, we're on a podcast together, we're talking, and I'm out there on a stage, and being that kind of free and vulnerable is really, really nice.

SPEAKER_01

Tell me about the first time that you did that. How is that like?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so I've been sober for years now. When I first did drag, it was in Michigan. It was, I think, my 21st birthday, maybe. And I did a show because I had always wanted to do drag. And I did it, and I was I was very intoxicated.

SPEAKER_01

And I think that helps. That helps to the bravery, right?

SPEAKER_00

Oh my goodness, it was a mess. And then I did it a few times after that, and I noticed like every single time I needed to be very intoxicated, and I did not want to do that. And also, I didn't really understand my gender identity at the time. I just knew that okay, binding my chest felt really good, and looking, I don't know, some sense of a dude at the time felt really good. Yeah. I was like, okay, I like this a little too much. Let's back off on this a little bit. But when it yeah, so when I restarted in 2018 in Phoenix, it was like, yep, that was my time.

SPEAKER_01

So you competed in Phoenix Pride in 2019 and won the title. How was that like?

SPEAKER_00

It was wild. So I restarted in 2018, went right into pageantry. I went to a different kind of pageantry system called EOI Entertainer of the Year. I did not do well, but I learned a lot. So I learned a lot. I came back, competed. Phoenix Pride is a community title. It's focused on fundraising for the Phoenix Pride scholarship. So it's like, okay, I had just really entered the drag scene here in Phoenix. I knew I wanted to do this, and it was my first time, and I won. And congrats. Yeah, it was like wild. Like I was so proud, and that really put me right into the, so to speak, like spotlight of like, okay, you just won. You have to represent for a year, got to do all this fundraising. And that's really what led me to nonprofit work. So I got to be in the community. I was already kind of doing outreach in that way, and that led me to join that organization. I was an outreach worker, and it's just kind of like gone up and up from there. Just being able to, like, okay, I really enjoy this. I loved my reign as Mr. Phoenix Pride. It was really liberating. In, you know, the first little bits of my medical transition and as a proud trans masculine person, being there for my community, and then fundraising for scholarships. I'm super proud of what I was able to do and what it kind of led me into doing.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Tell me about the pageantry world. It's really beautiful and like deep-rooted in the drag community. It's structured in a way of like, of course, you're getting judged or you getting critiqued, but that first entry to pageantry, I learned so much of how to be a professional, how to be on time, how to get ready fast, how to work alongside of people that you're competing against, how to lose gracefully. That's rough. I got seven out of nine, my first national competition, how to present on a very big stage, but also being able to connect with people all over the states. That's what was the coolest part is I got to meet people from all over. And even though, yeah, we're competing against each other, we still get to see, like, oh, deal with the same things I do, just in a different state. Or here's this transmasculine person that I'm still connected with, you know, just because we competed back in 2018. As far as categories, it's very similar. Like for masculine folks, they might have like a swimwear or a suit, but then more feminine, you could have like a gown. But it's cool because it helps you like you have to do an interview or you have to do a question and answer. So you either gain some skills or kind of exercise some of those skills on a national stage or a bigger stage.

SPEAKER_01

That sounds really intense.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. It can be lots of adrenaline off.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Keep you going.

SPEAKER_01

Was there any relief after it's over? Just like, okay, I can relax, you know.

SPEAKER_00

It's a lot of time, money, and energy. So you're like, okay.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

No matter the placement.

SPEAKER_01

Do you get cash prizes by doing it?

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good pull, right? Is like you're your winner, cash prize, you reign for a year, or even the so the second runner-up is considered like a first alternate. So they could sometimes get cash prizes too. Back years and years ago, kind of the miss division or the female impersonator division of EOI used to get a car, which was really cool. I was like, okay, let's bring that back.

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, uh that's fancy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, if you're doing all that work, you know.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, might as well, right? If you took uh media, now you have drag race and cash prizes and all of that stuff. So it all kind of rooted from pageantry and even like ballroom, right? Ballroom culture. It's deep-rooted history in drag community.

SPEAKER_01

Do you have any drag artists that inspire you or that you take inspiration from?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, there was actually so the King of Drag, they just had their first season of a drag king competition. And it was really incredible to see kings on stage, right? Like we have drag race. I love Sasha Velure as one of my favorites. Classic, like Vander von Odd is a friend of mine. She was on Dragula, first winner, Dracula. Love her dearly. But as far as the Kings, I love Tenderoni. Tenderoni is incredible. And then the first winner of King of Drag, his name is King Bolasses. I has first seen him on a Housewives episode, and then I saw him on King of Drag, and then he ended up winning. Spoiler alert. But really inspired me.

SPEAKER_01

So I'd love to circle back to something that you said earlier that really stood out to me about how you navigated internal stigma. What's your experience with finding wellness and mental health resources?

SPEAKER_00

I think that was definitely a challenge that I didn't I didn't expect that at all. Because I was like, okay, I'm s you know, we're stigma-free and we're focused on like comprehensive health and wellness. Like, why would I have any internalized stigma or transphobia, homophobia, or like anything adverse to sexual health? But some of that kind of manifested. And I think it was, of course, rooted in my upbringing. I was super sheltered. I don't think I ever got a sexual health conversation from my family. I think I was actually pulled out from that class in in school. I was pretty religious as a youth. And I just had to give myself some like great. And time with that. Okay, this is why, because you didn't get this. And now you're in a position where you are the expert in this scenario, right? You're going and leading a test and making sure that this person doesn't, you know, of course, not judging them if they have some stigma, right? But making sure that the way that you talk about sex is really affirming. So I learned first and foremost from the people that trained me, my peers, but also gave myself some time of like, it's okay, right? Because society does not really lead us to being sexually liberated or being okay. And a lot of thankfully, like a lot of the people that were gender expansive that came through and got tested, it really helped them to say, like, okay, yeah, I do have sex in these ways, and that's totally okay. You can have pleasure and you deserve pleasure as a queer person, trans person. And that allowed me to do the same.

SPEAKER_01

Through the many years that you've been doing this work, do you feel like society has become more liberated and more open about talking about sexual experiences and gender expansiveness? Or how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think so. As far as the media that I've seen, even just on social media, like there's a lot more conversations around navigating sex either as a queer or trans person. I think there was even like articles in kind of mainstream magazines about like how to bottom, you know, in the best way, or like how to even do that. So it feels like the conversation has gotten a lot better, but still there's a lot of communities that still have deep-rooted stigma, unfortunately. And that's why we just continue and have these conversations.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. What other challenges have you faced in advocacy and being a drug artist?

SPEAKER_00

I think being able to sustain that can be really challenging. Again, like being vulnerable, or there's so much information all the time now of kind of being bombarded of like what is the most important thing. And what I've realized is that there's always gonna be something that's super important, and being able to really take care of myself as much as possible so that way I can show up in whatever capacity, whether it's speaking about something I'm passionate about, or being there for I have several drawn, so being there for some of my drawn, or I have queer children as well. And sometimes it can just be that, or sometimes it can be going full force and speaking at an event or protesting or walking in the streets because that is what needs to happen. One thing that I've learned is being able to really take care of myself so I can sustain continuing my advocacy work.

SPEAKER_01

Tell me more about your family. Like how did you meet your wife? I'd love to hear more about that.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love talking about our love story because it's I don't know if I realized how wild it is. So I had known of my wife because she's a drag performer.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, that's so cool. Okay, so you guys are both drag performers. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_00

Eva Angelica Stratton. That's my wife's name. So I had seen Eva at a show in Grand Rapids, Michigan years before I met her or dated her. And all I knew is that I was infatuated just in love because she's so beautiful. She's stunningly beautiful. And at the time, I don't think either of us were in a good place to like start dating. But we started dating and really hit it off. And three months into dating, she was like, I'm moving to Arizona. Wow. So I was like, okay, great. Three months in, that's so sudden. Yeah, yeah. And I I mean, I was really getting to know her and of course, like infatuated by her beauty, but it takes a a while to get to know somebody and date them and all of that. And she moved to Arizona. I said, okay, I have a couple months left on my lease, a little bit in my semester left. I think I'm gonna move too. And it really felt scary, but it felt right. A lot of people told me not to do it. A lot of people were not on board, but I took that chance, and those first years here in Phoenix again were challenging, like really beautiful moments, but really challenging of like first moving in with somebody. We lived together.

SPEAKER_01

So you moved together three months knowing each other.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Whoa. Yeah, so she moved here and then I moved right after, and then we moved right in together.

SPEAKER_01

That is a leap of faith, right?

SPEAKER_00

I mean, we had her roommate, longtime friends, now one of my closest friends as well. But it was challenging, right? Like I I have only known you three months, you know, maybe a year. It's kind of like when you know you know, right? Yeah. It just felt right, even with those challenges and trying to get a job and all the car stuff went wrong. Like everything that could go wrong went wrong in those first couple years, but we were able to grow together, which was really beautiful, and I think really this community helped a lot with that. And now we've been together for what, 10 years and married for three years coming October 22nd, which is just kind of a dream come true. Like I really have found my person, which is just beautiful. And we're both trans too, so I was always told it's not gonna work. Who said that?

SPEAKER_01

Who said that?

SPEAKER_00

Right, right, exactly. People that are no longer in our lives. Good, you know. But of course, people are scared. They don't really know. And when you care about somebody as a friend, you're like, what are you doing? I can kind of understand their perspective, but also I had faith in us, and we've gone through a lot together, but still we always choose each other and we love each other deeply, and we have the same kind of I swear she's more of an advocate than I am. She's out there doing the work every single day and so proud of her.

SPEAKER_01

That's so beautiful.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I love her a lot.

SPEAKER_01

Have you ever had times where you've had to deal with burnout or just exhaustion doing that?

SPEAKER_00

All the time. I don't think I have excelled at the self-care.

SPEAKER_01

There's no medal for self-care, right? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because it's always labeled of like take a day off or go and lay down. I don't know. It's a lifelong thing that you have to like continue to take care of yourself and say, okay, I'm doing too much. But I've experienced quite a lot of burnout. I think I had to recognize that, so I I didn't exhaust myself to where I wouldn't be able to continue. So I've really, really focused on taking care of myself so that I can continue to this next whatever phase of life has for me.

SPEAKER_01

What's your perspective on the current climate on trans health and trans rights?

SPEAKER_00

I think it's really detrimental to our health. I know for me and my perspective, I didn't realize how much it had impacted me. And I really am concerned about the people that I used to call clients or participants. That's what I've been thinking about a lot of how we can get more community, more time in person with each other. It makes me really, really nervous. And also reminds me of why I have to take care of myself because I have to show up and I have to continue to show up because there's people that are no longer here. And that's really, really hard to grasp. That that's our reality, that there's a lot of people that I love and close friends that are no longer here because of what's going on. And I think that this is a fight that gender expansive people have fought since their existence. So I can't imagine how some of our elders are feeling. And again, it's it's a responsibility, like, oh, okay, I'm grown. I gotta, I gotta do this now because I'm sure our elders are really tired. They had already gone through this several times over. Yeah. And now it's our time to pick up that mantle, whether we're ready or not, because this is it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. It's not the time to hide, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I've been in survival for a long time. I think a lot of people are. So I'm doing my best to not judge people because I know a lot of people are just trying to work on their survival. But also anybody that's willing or able or has multiple layers of support, I need them as much as possible. Because I I mean, I'm having challenges, right? And I have perceivably multiple layers of support. Then what about what about everybody else? Like we're, you know, we need whatever type of privilege that you have, access to anything, food, housing, employment, just like a conversation, any type of space to be able to make sure that your friends, your family, your chosen family are going to make it, you know, the next year, the next moment. We have to do that. There's no other choice.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Have there been some resources and practical layers of support that have been really important for you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I have been able to have a therapist, which I'm very proud of myself.

SPEAKER_01

Love that. Love therapy.

SPEAKER_00

I really took a chance on going back to therapy. I had wrote it off as much as I talk about getting a therapist. I had a really challenging time as a youth with therapy. So I took a chance on myself and going back to therapy, and it's been really tremendous as far as my mental health. I also took a chance on getting on medication again, which I again had really troubled times with my own addiction, but also being on several medications as a youth. And that has been really transformative for me. Some sense of ease and calm. But again, just staying like with community and our people has every time I'm with our kids, it's like I feel recharged. I'm like, okay. Oh, we're gonna be okay. Like everything's okay. So I think that helps me, my meditation, or if I can go to a recovery meeting, that's always nice, or being with other sober people I love. But I think whatever makes you feel recharged at the end of the day, whether it's a person or a thing, like go towards that as much as possible.

SPEAKER_01

You talked about you're waiting for that next phase in your life. And what do you envision? Like, what do you imagine your future is going to be like in, I don't know, like five, 10 years?

SPEAKER_00

It is so wild to think of because where I'm at today I never thought was possible, which is wild to think about. Like I went back to college, like I walked this last May with my associates. Like, so maybe continuing school, going further than I ever thought I would, maybe some roots in Arizona. I think ultimately big dream, you know, liberation for trans and queer folks would be nice. Yes. Being able to go outside and not be scared.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, I think the possibilities are endless. It's just if I'm willing to take a chance on myself and also the people around me, I guess. Could be anything.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. What would you tell someone that is having a hard time envisioning the future right now?

SPEAKER_00

That one's always really challenging because I've been there and I understand it. I picture it like being in a pit. I've always envisioned that like when I have I'm somebody that navigates PTSD, depression, anxiety. And to me, when I'm in the depths of those things, I refer to it as the pit. So I'm in this pit. There is a ladder next to me. Sometimes I can't see the ladder at all. Sometimes there's a person up above screaming, There's a ladder. Get on the ladder, get out of the pit. You need sometimes I can't even hear the person or see the person. Sometimes I can see the ladder, I can't hear the person. So when I think about the pit, I try to remind myself of like, okay, I'm there. I need to find that sense of quiet to be able to either see it or to hear the person and know that there's somebody on that other side or some tool that I need to find to get out of it. And it's a lifelong journey for me or for anybody. I think for me, being able to sit with that person, being able to acknowledge what they're going through, been very fortunate to go through psychological first aid and help people that are going through really challenging thoughts, feelings, and to name suicide is super powerful. I never understood that until I went through that and helped people navigate that. Because if you're looking at society or social media, it's really challenging to find any sense of hope sometimes. Yeah. And to first just sit with that person and be like, yeah, things really, really suck. I get it. I understand. I've also been there. I've been in the pit. I was in the pit last week, you know, whatever that was. But then to also say, okay, what was something that you enjoyed today? What made you feel good today? Do you want to go get some coffee tomorrow? Or I think those little bits of connection can hopefully help over time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it's whatever feels good for them. I think we're focused a lot of like making other people happy, or with social media being the best version that you can on there and saying like, yeah, I'm not perfect. No one's perfect. I don't expect anyone else to be. A perfectionism is a myth. It's such a myth. It truly, truly is. And I think like for me, that's how I was raised is like that's what you absolutely have to be. And I see some like common threads in social media of that of like you have to look absolutely perfect or you have to have Wake up at 5 a.m.

SPEAKER_01

Have a macho latte, go and work out.

SPEAKER_00

Like, okay, well, you were just on the couch earlier with your potato chips, and that's okay too, because you deserve to binge watch your favorite show because you want to just maybe watch Bluey. I don't know. Like Bluey's a great show. Bluey is so good.

SPEAKER_01

What do you think is important for people to understand about trans experiences?

SPEAKER_00

That is such a great question. I've had this question a lot over time, and it always leads into like, why do you think people are so scared of us or are doing all of this right? Like, why are you so obsessed? Okay. But I think the one thing that I want people to understand is like, we're human beings. I don't know why that is such a far concept.

SPEAKER_01

For real though.

SPEAKER_00

But and I try not to be so harsh with that, right? Because I'm like, how could you not understand? But as somebody that tries to have conversations with people, we are human beings that want to get care, want to have relationships, want to have sex, want to have maybe kids, want to have a good job, that maybe pays for things. Maybe want to go to school. And there's a lot of similarities and there's a lot of parallels between our lives and cis people's lives. And I don't think that humanization or like humanizing of us happens because they're like, oh, like I don't understand what's happening. Why, how could you do that? Well, you don't understand because you you're not trans, right? So you've never had that experience. But maybe there was a time where you feel different or felt othered in your life or questioned something or felt alone. Like, there's probably some of those experiences that you've had. So I try to lean into that a little bit. I mean, for instance, like my parents don't understand, couldn't possibly understand, but they understand I'm happy and they understand that I wasn't happy as a child. And sometimes it takes that to realize or to support somebody. And like, okay, well, this person needs these few things to be able to be happy. Don't you want somebody to be happy? So I wish people investigated or like questioned kind of some of that things of like, couldn't I just be kind in this moment? Couldn't I just like wish somebody'd be happy? But a lot of it is covered by society's expectation of gender, society's expectations of our lives. That's a laundry list of expectations for cis women, cis men, and they're probably dealing with a lot of those pressures and they don't even realize it. Just want a little bit more kindness, I think, and understanding. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like, how is someone else's happiness a threat to you?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. If it is, then there's probably some deeper digging you have to do in your life. Like, why am I so concerned about that? I think for me, I was not about it. I was super religious as a youth. I came out several times after that as by as a lesbian. I don't know. I came out so many times, went in and out of the closet. And when it came to the trans conversation, I was pretty ignorant. And that's like part of my journey. I don't really talk about it too much because it's I don't operate from that place, but I think it's a really powerful thing to say, like, I was so concerned and like overly concerned and ignorant. Well, maybe that's because I was having those thoughts and feelings. And I realized that I don't say, oh, well, I am probably the biggest jerk because I was giving my friends a hard time. But that's because I didn't understand or really sit with myself and say, hey, you've been experiencing this your entire life. And that's probably why you're so concerned about it. I don't think I understood or respected wit women as a lesbian, but now as a transmasculine person and understanding the experiences I went through, the experiences my sister went through, it's been really, really eye-opening to be able to be like, okay, yes, absolutely I am a feminist because I finally get it. You know, it's it's it was like that deeply rooted with society and religion and everything. It was like fully bought the patriarchy, I think.

SPEAKER_01

Not the patriarchy. Oh no. So it really sounds like you have this multidimensional experience of both sides of the spectrum that led you to who you are today.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's wild too, because I feel so confident in my femininity now than I ever did as somebody that was assigned female at birth. Which I mean makes sense, right? I was never connected with it, I never got it. Even as a lesbian, I was like, that doesn't really feel like me as far as a term. I think I really appreciate women a lot more now, which I'm very thankful for, because now I can be in some spaces where women are at and understand, okay, well, one, I might not be welcome in said space, but I can understand their perspectives as to why, or be supportive to women, not even disclosing my transness, but just like empathizing with if they're a cis woman and have a period or experiencing some pain that I have gone through, or just having some more empathy and compassion than I think I've seen some cis counterparts experience or exhibit, and then I now am this person, even though, of course, like I have my own flaws, but it's wild that no matter what you're born into, that you can kind of evolve as a person and grow. And I'm really thankful to be able to like even say that. Like, I said I was an introvert, but I was an introvert because of the people around me were not safe. Now I'm I'm still a good portion of an introvert, but I'm an extrovert because I can stand here and say I love myself, but I also love the people I'm around and they accept me and they see me and they welcome me fully. That's super cool.

SPEAKER_02

That is super cool.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh, I want to talk to somebody. You know, like I was always that kid that first did not talk, but is always with the animals. Catch me with the animals. The animals get it. Yeah, I don't want to deal with y'all. I can't deal with y'all. I'm gonna be with the animals. But now I'm like, yes, I will also be with the dog, but I'm gonna be with you too. So once you find those lifetime people, it's you're set. So, like me, whether it was pageantry or drag or like falling in love with my now wife, the people that support you will show you that. Like the people that show up. I always say, like, if you have my phone number, if you know that I have a sister and a half sister, like you're showing up, right? Like if I invite you to something and And I said, this really means something to me. Like I would really love for you to come. Do you show up for me? And maybe that's not you can't always do that, but the people that support you and show up for you will show that, of course. And I think I learned over time like who those people are and who I can trust, of course, ultimately.

SPEAKER_01

Did you feel like you really had a choice though in the spaces that you were in?

SPEAKER_00

I think I was pretty limited in my worldview, just in general. So like as a youth, I was so closed off. Okay, that makes sense. I didn't have a friend group to kind of pull from. But as somebody I I left home 18, 19, got to a point where my family was absolutely not going to support me. And they were like, You gotta go. It's you know, it's this or that type of thing. So I lived in Couch Surf for several years, and I think during that time, yeah, I probably didn't have a choice of like, okay, well, these people are gonna let me sleep on their couch, or I'm gonna be drinking for a long time, you know, whatever is gonna help me survive through the next day, I'll be fine with. Yeah. So now uh at a place where I get to choose where I'm at, who I spend time with. Yeah, absolutely different. I took a chance on myself, you know. I I trusted myself to be able to move to Arizona or take a chance on love. But absolutely, like the people around me built me up quite a lot of like deserving of life, whatever that meant. I think I still deal with that. And I think especially like we're talking about the political landscape, the l just life, that puts me back there a lot. And some of it's familiar, of like, oh, this is almost familiar to me, but it doesn't feel good. I don't want to get back to that. But I also realize that there's so many people that are still kind of stuck in survival or not even stuck, like you have no choice. So I try not to judge my past self or present self if that manifests. And also if somebody's doing something that I don't necessarily like, I'm like, okay, well, maybe I don't know their situation.

SPEAKER_01

Sounds like you have a lot of understanding.

SPEAKER_00

I think because a lot of people gave me that when I don't think I necessarily deserved it. I don't think I was always the most compassionate or empathetic person or kind person. So even like in my worst moments, a lot of people gave me grace, or you know, a lot of people didn't, and then I learned from it.

SPEAKER_01

Do you feel like compassion is something that we should reserve and only give to people we feel like deserve it, or do you feel like it should be expansive? Like, how do you navigate that?

SPEAKER_00

So, like, don't see it. I say that and I'm like giving myself grace, and that's not giving myself grace because I still deserved it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So that is fair. And I'll tell you this: I worked in harm reduction in my last job, and I worked there for about a year, which I had understood harm reduction for a couple years. And it took me a while to like grow in that learning. Harm reduction is about meeting people where they're at, specifically people who use drugs. And absolutely everybody deserves it. I don't think you have to be a certain way. I think what I was referring to is when I look back in my life and that period of my life, it's really hard to give myself grace or not judge myself because I know a lot of things that I did I was not proud of. And I don't necessarily like blame it on my addiction, but I was heavily in my addiction. But I had a lot of pain. I was in a lot of pain mentally, emotionally, physically, and I didn't really understand or have the emotional intelligence to understand what was going on, and really had a very limited worldview. So that's why I'm like, it's sometimes frustrating to think about that person of like, how could you do that or say that or hurt those people? Because I had a lot of relationships where I relied on them so heavily to guide me or to be my therapist. And I couch surfed on a lot of people's couches and didn't pay them, or when I did have a job, you know, didn't provide rent, like just things that I wasn't really jazzed about, you know. Like those are not qualities that I really would want for myself now or for the people I care about. But even so, I still deserve that compassion and empathy. You're absolutely right. So yeah, I think that's still like a daily struggle of like, all right, we'll give you some grace. Like, I don't think I always realize like all of the things that I went through and how to me it was normal. So, to other people, if I tell everybody my entire life story, they'd be like, Oh, so you're okay, or like you're standing up, but yeah. I think I I definitely learned that a lot too with working directly with people who use drugs, and they would be nice to be acknowledged, to have a warm, friendly smile and be like, How are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, not great, but you know, like, oh no, I'm doing okay.

SPEAKER_01

Happy to see you. Awesome, cool. So you feel like that helped you extend that compassion towards people that were struggling with the same things.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. Cause I mean, for me, it took a long time to really acknowledge my addiction. I had already always said that I don't drink. That was kind of where I left it. And then kind of several years into living in Arizona, I was like, no, I'm in recovery. And to talk to some people about it, but I'm pretty proud about that now. Of like talking about I never really understood or knew my sober date, and now I kind of have like identified it and share that every year and talk about my sobriety and how it's still challenging and it's lifelong dedication to myself of like this is what I want for myself. And yeah, it's not for everybody. I still firmly believe in harm reduction and getting the tools that you need to use as safely as you can. But yeah, it definitely helped me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. And it's just so hard sometimes because we just have such a lack of the support systems that people desperately need. So it's just like there's so many people that fall through the cracks and like, yeah, and it's like it takes so much resources to provide someone with the wraparound whole person care that they need. It's truly. And it's like we really need that.

SPEAKER_00

Understands all those, I say like subsections, but it's really just being able to understand said person, whomever it is, and like, oh, okay, yes, they have a diverse background. And maybe because they're gender expansive, they might be more susceptible to using drugs, or maybe they don't, or if they're using drugs, but all of the disparities, all of the studies show, like, okay, housing, income, food, like all of those things that you need to just live your life. And unfortunately, like a good portion of the people that are in those fields don't know that, have so much burnout from working with specific communities, are not supported themselves as a diverse person in that field. Like, we could go on and on about indigenous care and access to clean water, or it's really, really challenging and hard to see because I'm like, I feel like I can look at somebody and like, oh, okay, I would love to learn about all of you as a human being, and also knowing that you probably just need like, do you need some food? Like, do you need a ride? Like, whatever that is, and just can we provide that without all of these things or all of these forms or all of these, like even the language that we use of like, why does everything have to be gendered, or why do we black women's health care and their pain level of like, why is that not understood? But of course, that leads back to a long history of care in our country, and really not understanding it. And if we're gonna go even further, like we have to really acknowledge and talk about racism, which is a whole nother conversation. Like, okay, well, it's very clear we're not our people are not ready for that conversation and how that impacts everything.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Like it does come down to history. Like, history is so important to understand and work through. It's like we have to get through the ghosts of the past.

SPEAKER_00

I didn't really understand that until recently, too, I don't think, or at least the last several years of all of the things that my mother and my grandmother went. Okay, well, that clearly impacts me as well. Yeah, okay, yeah, my experience as a youth, super religious, brown and primarily white communities and all of that stuff. But my grandmother grew up in a war-torn country. She was Palestinian, watched her father die in front of her. Oh my gosh, holy cow. And she always just said that it was nothing. Like that was not that it was nothing, but that was her entire life of being in a war-torn country. And then my mother grew up in Jordan, born in Jordan, migrated, and born with her umbilical cord around her neck, which is shown to have lasting effects, depending on the person. And she's navigated mental health challenges ever since I can remember. And I'm like, okay, well, obviously, being from a war-torn country and just how all of that affects down to me. And I can't imagine what they experienced.

SPEAKER_01

So, with your own experience with your family, did you have a moment where you felt like your parents started acknowledging that you're happy now?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's been really, really nice. So I will say, unfortunately, for I respect my mother, I love my mother. However, we do not see eye to eye as far as anything in regards to my personal life or me being trans, my marriage, like anything like that, unfortunately. And that's okay. Religion for her has saved her, and I respect that. But in regards to my father, I've been really proud of the growth that we've made in our, I guess I would say, relationship. He has called me by my name, which has been really beautiful. He always says child, he does not say daughter anymore. I think my stepmom has said something to the effect of like, we don't necessarily, you know, uh support that, but like, we understand that that is the choice that you made for your life to be happy. Because they saw me so depressed every single day, did not want to be on this earth at all. So I can imagine for them, like it's nice for them to see that I'm an adult. I grew up to be an adult, which is awesome. Maybe some success in their lives is or in their perspective of me being married, you know, living on my own, having a job, stuff like that. But yeah, he has said very nice things. If you know, he still says that he loves me. And previously we didn't talk. He asked to meet me a few years ago when it had been about ten years since we hadn't seen each other.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

Which I thought was really nice. And it was a good conversation, pretty healing, and text him now and again, call him. I don't think, you know, not by any means a father-son relationship, but I I will absolutely take it. Because that's major growth from where we were when I was kicked out of my house. So or left home, kicked out of my house, because it was not a good spot.

SPEAKER_01

That's a huge deal.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's a big transformation.

SPEAKER_00

I don't think I ever thought that was possible.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But he's always been a really introspective, super quiet guy, super like loves nature and reads. Like he went to Puerto Rico and lived in Puerto Rico for some time, doing missionary work there for the religion that they're in. And I think that helped as far as perspective. Went through Hurricane Maria and like a lot of things that I don't know if he's ever experienced. And it just seems like as he's grown older, he's understood a little bit, like our relationship is important. So I will take that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. He's now in Florida living his best life. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Florida. Yeah. I was like, why Florida?

SPEAKER_00

I guess he loves it.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, they have beaches there. Jerko, thank you so much for being on the Lavender Lounge today. It's been so amazing hearing about your experiences, your work as a drag artist, and your advocacy. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you so much for having me. It's truly like bucketless, checked off. I'm so jazzed and really honored to be here and share a little bit about myself.

SPEAKER_01

And I also want to give a shout out to Vitalist, the sponsor of this episode. Vitalist supports innovation, healthcare, and is a big advocate for the queer community. So thank you so much, Vitalist. And see you later.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks, y'all.