Data Centers, Energy Demand, and the Policy Fight at the Capitol

New data centers are rapidly expanding across the country, driven by the growth of AI and digital infrastructure.

But behind that growth are real questions about energy use, water consumption, cost to consumers, and community impact.

In this episode, Ross Izard sits down with Senator Cathy Kipp to break down one of the most complex policy debates of the Colorado legislative session. Two competing bills are shaping the conversation, one focused on incentives and economic growth, the other on guardrails, transparency, and long-term sustainability.

Because when new industries move fast, policy has to catch up just as quickly.

What we cover:
• What data centers are and why demand is growing so quickly
• The two competing bills at the Capitol and what each is trying to do
• Concerns around energy use, water consumption, and grid expansion
• Who should pay for infrastructure, companies or ratepayers
• The debate over tax incentives and whether they actually deliver value
• Community impacts, including environmental concerns and local opposition
• The political challenge of balancing labor, environmental, and economic interests
• What happens next as the legislative session moves toward a deadline

About the guest:
Cathy Kipp is a Colorado State Senator representing Fort Collins and currently serves as Senate President Pro Tempore. She is the sponsor of Senate Bill 102, which focuses on establishing guardrails, transparency, and protections related to data center development in Colorado.

Resources:
• Colorado General Assembly: https://leg.colorado.gov/
• Senate Bill 102: http://www.leg.colorado.gov/bills/SB26-102
• House Bill 1030: http://www.leg.colorado.gov/bills/HB26-1030

Leave a review and stay in touch:
If you enjoyed the episode, please rate and review the show. It helps more listeners find us. Have feedback or questions? Email straightup30@xiphosstrategies.com.

Straight facts. Straight talk. Straight to the point.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Welcome to the straight up 30 where we make policy make sense in 30 minutes or less. And today we're here to talk about a really interesting policy duel of sorts down at the po at the Colorado Capitol that deals with the construction of new data centers in Colorado. And to talk about that, we have Senator Kathy Kip from Fort Collins here with us today. Senator Kip was recently elected as the new Senate President Pro Tem, so congratulations on that. Thank you. She is also the sponsor of Senate Bill 102, which is one of the two dueling bills working on this issue. So, Senator Kip, thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Well, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:41

So maybe you could help us just initially set up the situation at the Capitol. There was a lot of coverage of it early in the session, back in January, and people sort of were looking at this and saying, oh, it's going to be kind of the uh King Kong versus Godzilla fight of the session when it comes to the data centers issue. And now it has sort of started to play out, well, as it's playing out. Maybe you could give us an update on where things stand now.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah. So where things are now, we have um Senate Bill 26102, which um honestly we started working on this right after the session end of last year because it's a big complicated topic, and we are still continuing to work on it and to herd the cats. Um so 102 is a bill that is has several goals. Um in the past years at the legislature, we have been um a lot a lot of bills were introduced to try and incentivize data centers to come to Colorado. And those bills typically failed. And there are like 37 states out there that do have data center incentives. And I think that's one of the biggest um stumbling blocks that we're having in this debate. So my bill has been um, you know, named sort of or or nicknamed the guardrails bill, and the other bill has been nicknamed the industry bill. So that's sort of the the two bills. The other bill is um SB or HB 261030. So one bill starting um in the House, one my bill starting in the Senate. And yeah, it's been a really um interesting conversation. You know, we've met with the sponsors of the other bills, our our coalitions have worked together. Um, but where we are with our bill is we've been trying just to accomplish a few things. We want to make sure that Colorado can still meet our climate goals, right? Because the infrastructure needed for all of the electricity that these data centers, especially these large hyperscalers, will need is immense. I mean, we're talking um in some cases about, you know, like the data centers going up in Wyoming, they're talking about doubling the size of their grid in order to accommodate what they're doing up there. And here, you know, Excel is already has rate cases out there to say, hey, we um need to get ahead of the data center boom. We need to serve these customers, and so we want to expand the size of our grid, which means that they are gonna charge you and me as the ratepayers money because that's how Excel gets money is to expand their grid, right? That's how the utilities work. Um, so climate is one thing. We want to make sure that my bill says right now that if um data centers come to Colorado of a certain size, they need to make sure that they're bringing clean energy along with them, right? Renewable energy. Um, we also want to make sure that water is an important part of the conversation because a lot of the um data centers have used immense amounts of water. Now, we think that that we're we keep being told there's new technologies out there that are like closed loose systems, loop systems and systems that don't use water at all. Um I'm not seeing a whole lot of data there. I I talked to one data center company a few months ago who said, oh yeah, we're gonna have this new uh dashboard up in two weeks that'll say how much water all of our data centers use. And I, you know, whenever I've checked in, it's like, oh, that's not quite ready yet. So I don't know the veracity of the claims in terms of are there data centers that are gonna use significantly less water.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

And I think it's it's fascinating to talk about the water impact in particular, because a lot of folks don't really know what a data center is, right? And there are different types of data centers. Some of them are used to process like shopping or financial transactions or to store information. They're like server centers. And then you have data centers that do that plus AI, and then you have data centers that are designed to run AI platforms. And I think folks don't realize that the level of computing that has to happen to make well, I won't name any specific platforms, but any AI system work requires incredible amounts of computational power, which makes a lot of heat, which then has to be cooled. And so it's not a case of the water being used to like fill up a water cooler or run the kitchen sink. Right. They're actually having to use it 24-7 to cool these things down so that they can keep operating. And the levels are are pretty wild. I mean, some of the estimates out there for the amount of water used just for one conversation with AI is uh it's kind of shocking to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

I mean, think of like really enormous buildings, and I don't even know how to describe how large they are. Um, I I should get a better concept of that. I don't know how to say the size of a football field. They're probably way bigger than football fields, honestly. And, you know, seven, eight stories high, all filled with high processing power, right? Just tons and tons of computers, generates all that heat, has to be cooled. And, you know, one of the things when you start talking about the water and the electricity is that there are data centers that have been built throughout the country that have been built under non-disclosure agreements. And with those non-disclosure agreements, that means local communities don't even know how much water and how much electricity they're using. And in Colorado, that's a really big deal. Like if you're gonna put a data center in my community, I want to know what kind of resources you're using. So one of the things that my bill does is make sure that we have transparency in there. I know people are looking at um putting in some more water protections into um our bill, and uh, you know, lots of conversations happening about how to um improve the bill going forward. Um, I do want to mention a couple of other things, but those ratepayer protections that we were talking about before, um, if with so first of all, my bill doesn't offer incentives. So those are usually taxpayer um tax incentives, like the other bill offers um 20 to 30 years of sales and use tax exemptions for the state sales tax, which is can be a lot of money, and the the data centers seem to really, really want that. That's important to them. Um but the other thing that is really important to people like you and me are making sure that our electricity rates aren't going up because somebody else is the wealthiest companies in the world, are putting in data centers, and you and I our costs for our electricity because the infrastructure needs for that electricity are gonna go up. And that is really problematic. So we have some protections in our bill to make sure that those companies that are coming in are going to, you know, pay up front or pay over 15 years. Um, but making sure that they are covering their costs so that you and I don't have to, because consumers shouldn't be paying when these are the wealthiest companies in the history of the planet, right? That just doesn't seem right to me. Um, and that's really an interesting bipartisan thing because that's been said actually all the way from, you know, the White House down to my level by people on both sides, both parties. I mean, I just think that's a really interesting thing. And then another um area is um uh that's really important is disproportionately impacted communities. So we have people who live in neighborhoods like um where Suncor is, right? And those folks are living amongst tons of industry. And right now in that same area, they're putting up a large data center, one of the largest in Colorado, and that was built on a use by right type of um deal, which meant that it didn't have to go through a public process. And those neighbors are angry. I went to a community meeting there last month. Oh my gosh, those people were as angry as anybody I've ever seen about what is um going on in their community. But you have a data center being built next to like a senior living facility in an affordable housing. And one of the things that the data centers tend to use are these um diesel generators as backup. And we want to make sure that if those diesel generators are being used, and one of the things in my bill is like you're gonna make sure that you have the most um the cleanest diesel diesel generators possible. There's um levels of diesel generators. And because they are very polluting and they're very noisy and they just you know mess up your air. And let's make sure they're only being used like when you absolutely need them, not being used as like, oh, well, we we don't have enough energy right now, so we need to supplement with this. That's not the appropriate use for that type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

Right. And so I mean, you've got all this stuff laid out in 102 that says these are the restrictions that we need to have in place to protect communities and the environment, right? Right. And then on the other side, just to sort of set this up a little bit, you've got House Bill 1030, which you mentioned, which is really I mean, it does include some requirements that certain restrictions be met in order to get those tax incentives that you mentioned, but really is centered primarily around providing incentive structures to get more data center construction going on to take advantage of the industry as it grows.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Correct. And I guess the I will say the thing about the data center um incentives bill is that it was also stakeholdered with some of the labor groups. And the labor groups um have the argument where they say, well, you can't, our bill does have labor standards into it, but they're saying, well, you can't enforce labor standards. That's not legal to do unless you have some kind of public skin in the game. So some kind of um incentive that is a coming from the public in order to help pay. We want to make sure that these are bringing good jobs. I mean, there was the day that we had the hearing on my bill, there were people standing outside handing out flyers saying that my bill was gonna send all of our jobs to Wyoming. Now, I think that there's a lot of hyperbole that goes on here, right? People say, oh, you're gonna shut down whatever industry because you're doing this bill and you're gonna put make the requirements too strict, you're gonna make it, but we cannot compete with a state like Wyoming, right? Wyoming doesn't care about the clean energy standards, frankly. Um, maybe they care about the water. I don't know about that, but they also are probably gonna be willing to offer much larger tax incentives. And frankly, our state, our budget is in a death spiral. We cannot afford to offer huge tax incentives. So that's sort of where we are right now. Sort of labor in the industry is on one side, and a lot of the um environmental groups and um, you know, people who care about ratepayers and so forth are on the other side. And it's really um an interesting dichotomy. And I just keep on saying, you know, the moment for data center incentives has passed. While all of these states have offered them, a lot of them are now looking at repealing them because what they have found is that they they target them out like for three years, and they say, okay, well, this is on track for three years, and then what happens in year four? They explode. And, you know, states are now giving away billions of dollars instead of having that as revenue. And say you say, okay, well, what's wrong with that? Because you know, it's bringing business. Well, data centers don't generally tend to bring that many jobs, right? The um construction industry is really interested in them because they bring construction.

SPEAKER_00 12:07

Because they're construction projects primarily, right? The buildings themselves don't require a ton of employees to run.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

Right. And and but, you know, there are some that say, oh, yeah, but some of them have cafeterias. There are people who are actually working in them. Okay, maybe that's true. It's really hard to know until we are collecting more data. But there was one example of a data center, I believe, being built in Illinois under some type of tax incentive. And the average tax incentive per job created was like $1.2 or $1.7 million per job. And you're like, are you kidding me? How is that at all acceptable? So, anyway, a lot of um the jurisdictions that states and you know municipalities that have put out those tax credits are now looking at repealing them because they're saying this just really isn't helpful to us.

SPEAKER_00 12:56

And how much of that do you think is because it's just so poorly understood as far as long-term impact? So some of the other states you mentioned, Virginia, for instance, has had a lot of conversations around the way that energy prices have increased after the construction of all these data centers. Illinois created an incentive program and then backed off of it and said, well, maybe we need to study this a little bit more before we understand it. And it's kind of one of those interesting political issues where you have this really rapidly developing technology and behind it a huge industry, right? This is north of a trillion dollars a year now, this industry. Uh, and we don't really have a full concept of how it impacts communities or the environment in the short term, but definitely not in the long term. And then you've got these competing political interests fighting it out. And somewhere in there, unfortunately, folks like you who are trying to find a balance, which has got to be a really difficult thing to do.

SPEAKER_01 13:46

It is a real challenge to get a bill through the Capitol, right? You know, so um both of the bills in the Capitol are being sponsored by Democrats right now. There aren't any Republicans on them. That's not for lack of asking, by the way. Um I would be more than happy to make my bill bipartisan. But I've also um kept the extra spot on my bill. So every bill that goes through the Capitol um can have two Senate co-primes and two House co-primes. And I've kept that second spot in each chamber intentionally available. And I've told the sponsors this of the other bill. It's like, if you guys want to come and join me, let's find a path forward so that we can figure out together. Those spots are available on the bill so you can have your name on it too. But we have not um we we're continuing to have conversations and continuing to figure out how we want to proceed there. But it's been a real challenge.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

I bet. I mean, and the backdrop to that is the budget situation, which you mentioned earlier. So you're talking about a tax incentive structure that, at least according to the fiscal note, is somewhere in the neighborhood of like $77 million next year. Uh, which, you know, in the context of the overall state budget, if things were great, maybe we would look at, but in the context of a billion and a half dollar deficit starts to get fairly complicated. And so that's all kind of going on in the background. And you're trying to sort out this sort of disparate set of interests on this issue that includes people who traditionally are on at least roughly the same side politically, right? So the labor groups who are concerned about the impact on jobs and labor, the environmental groups who are in very interested in how it impacts water usage, environment, uh, quality of life, all of that kind of stuff. And they are kind of at each other's throats, which is a difficult thing to, I would imagine, square.

SPEAKER_01 15:27

Well, and to be honest, um, I will just, you know, let's be fair about this. The other side's argument on the money piece is they're like, well, really, what um if this is a sales and use tax incentive, so if the data centers don't come here, you're not really losing anything because they aren't going to be investing that money here anyways, right? So they're like saying, okay, you know, if my bill is going to shut down industry, they won't move here and they wouldn't be spending the money anyway. So that that's kind of the argument that they use to try and justify that. But it sets a really huge tax incentive. And it's a 20 years for a possible 10-year extension for data centers of a certain um size. Um, but I I just keep on telling people, I think the moment for data centers has passed. I went to the um community meeting they had last month um in Denver at umilia Swansea. And I have never seen, I mean, people sit through like a two-hour meeting, and by the end of it, they were just chanting, shut it down, shut it down. It was pretty darn remarkable. And that building held 500 people, and there were people who couldn't get in. There were pe pictures of people staring in the windows from the outside. And these people are fighting for what they believe in, but that's not unique. What is happening now as data centers are looking to come into communities? People, I mean, I didn't know what a data center was five years ago. Okay. I my first idea uh learning about data centers was like, oh, there's this incentive bill, and somebody's emailing me because they're upset about it. Like, oh, okay, well, what is that? Oh, well, that doesn't sound like a good thing. And that bill died, and and you know, bills have died since then. Um, so I don't think most of us knew what they are. And to your point, they are just developing at this frenetic rate, right? And AI, if you just look at AI tools, they're also developing at a frenetic rate, which means they need all this capacity. And I think a lot of people are asking the question, well, is there an AI bubble? Right? There's a lot of speculative shopping going on because data centers want to come and locate where there is energy and where there is water and where there is our communities that are going to let them come in and do this, and they want the tax incentives. And so that's what they are looking for. But there's also, and they want the um, they there's a lot of speculative shopping. And so just because they're coming and saying, well, what was it what it look like, you need to make a commitment if you're gonna like expect us to expand your grid for your potential shopping. Because what happens if they leave in five years and we're left holding the bag, right? We don't want to be left as ratepayers holding the bag for all of that.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

And it creates this really interesting loop because you're AI is being adopted everywhere all the time, right? I have business, education, personal use, it's all over the place.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

And it's amazing. I mean, I I I was like a computer science person back in the day, you know, in college, and it's it's great. I love technology.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Sure. And listen, I'm on AI every day. So full disclosure, I'm not hating on AI, but I think what people don't realize is that as that adoption rate spreads, and it really does have one of the highest uptake rates of any technology that's ever come out in human history, it's it's suddenly everywhere all the time. The infrastructure underneath that is barely keeping up with demand. And so you've got this incredibly rapidly growing industry. You've got to keep up with it somehow. So you've got to go out and construct these data centers. And up until now, there really hasn't been a lot of, to your earlier point, guardrails around what that looks like. So uh often it would be them going to a local community and saying, we would like to construct this here. It's left up to a local, maybe it's a city council, maybe it's a town council, maybe it's a county commission, whoever it might be, to decide this. And there weren't a lot of states that really had serious restrictions on what it needed to look like or what the company's responsibilities were, or what disclosures would look like, or how it would be communicated to the community. It was just sort of a free-for-all. And so now we saw this huge expansion, and now there is an incredible well, I wouldn't say it's a pushback, but it is a response by state governments to start putting some guardrails on it and thinking through how do we do this in a sustainable way long term? Because I think the truth is this isn't going away. It's not gonna slow down, it's not gonna reverse course. So we've got to figure out a way to do it responsibly and sustainably.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Exactly. And, you know, we don't know if there's an AI bubble, right? I mean, people say, oh, it's an insatiable appetite. Well, even an insatiable appetite at some point, you know, when is that bubble gonna burst? You know, did the tech bubble burst? Is anything else gonna burst? We need to, you know, see what's gonna happen and we want it to be done responsibly. And again, to the point, these large enormous companies that everybody has heard of, uh they should be able to pay their own way.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

Well, and I think the reality is in a lot of cases they do, right? If the tax incentives don't exist, but the location makes sense that often they find a way to do it. But I know that that's kind of a case-by-case basis. So tell me a little bit about the politics of all this. So House Bill 1030 hasn't had a hearing yet. There has been one hearing on Senate Bill 102. Uh it was a rowdy one. I got to listen to some of it, which people have strong opinions on this, so that's not surprising. Now we're sort of waiting to see what happens. It's April 1st as we record this, so we've got Happy April Fools. Yeah, just like six weeks left until session is over here.

SPEAKER_01 20:57

Terrifying.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

There's a lot going on. Sorry, I didn't mean to stress you out. And somewhere in there, we're gonna hopefully come up with something that looks like maybe a deal, maybe a compromise, or at least a path forward. Talk to me a little bit about what you think the next steps are in the political process as session starts looking toward the finish line.

SPEAKER_01 21:13

Um, well, that's a great question. So right now, in just our legislative sessions in Colorado are 120 days. We are, um they just closed out the budget today, which means the budget will go to the House next week, and the week after that, the budget will be in the Senate. I would love it if we could get my bill into committee and out before the budget. I don't know that that's possible. Um, we what we did with my bill is because we knew we weren't ready to have it finish going through the process yet. We heard the bill in committee, we had all the witness testimony, and then we laid it over for action only, which means we left it at the point where we can come back and add amendments to it and change it and then hopefully pass it out of committee. But we've got some things we have to solve. Have a fiscal note on our bill. There are various departments that say, well, if you implement this the way it's written, then this is going to cost the state money. And basically any fiscal note this year, because of the budget death spiral, has to have a fiscal note of zero. So that's where we are. We have to figure out how to get all of our fiscal notes to zero. We also um, you know, the legislature is made up of a hundred people, 35 um members of the Senate and uh 65 members of the House. And most of them are Democrats. We have um, you know, we don't have a supermajority, but we have a large number of Democrats. And Democrats are not going to be really comfortable if labor is all out opposed. So we have to figure out a path to fold in labor and get labor on um on our side. Because right now, um, labor is frankly opposed to my bill because they're worried that, you know, the strict um energy requirements and the renewable energy is going to say, oh, well, this isn't possible. Now we we disagree. We think it is possible. But, you know, those construction jobs you're talking about. And even though construction jobs are temporary jobs, if you are a construction worker, your life is a cycle of temporary jobs, right? So we're not trying to close down industry. That is not the intent. We think that these can be done. There's a really good example of Excel having a, you know, sort of essentially a carbon-free deal going in Minnesota to build a data center. So we are trying to follow all of the paths and all of the um various tentacles to see how we can do that and do it in a way where we're not scaring people that they're not going to have, you know, jobs or um economic benefit to our state.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Yeah, and I think it's gonna be an interesting sort of it'll be a puzzle for you to solve when it comes to how to square all those interests, especially between labor and the environmental groups who uh are coming at it from very different angles. But I think probably there is a path in there to get everybody on the same page, even if it means you have to come back and revisit it next year or the year after.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

Right, but I think we're gonna do something this year because let's be honest, if we continue to not pass anything, data centers will continue to develop in Colorado with no guardrails. And I think everybody's at the point where we need to have some kind of guardrails around data center development. So uh when you're negotiating a bill, you're gonna start out in your strongest point, right? You're gonna say, hey, this is what we would like as an ideal, and then you can dial it back and say, okay, well, yes, we realize this isn't perfect. We're not gonna get everything we want, but let's figure out how we can negotiate all of that. And I would much rather do it this year than next year. And I have to say, you know, I'm just a legislator. I have this huge coalition behind me who is also working on this. It's not just like me and my tiny little brain. It is like a lot of very smart people who are backing me up. You know, the legislators, we get all the credit for these things, but it's actually a very large coalition of people who are working on it and contributing ideas and figuring out how to thread that needle. And so um, you know, even though I'm sitting here talking to you, there are people um working on it right now. As we speak. As we speak.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

I'm sure. Yeah, and I bet they will be right up until the very end. So if you were wanting to learn more about this or if somebody wanted to get involved or just better understand the issue, where would where would they go or how would they get plugged in?

SPEAKER_01 25:31

Well, pull pull up your favorite AI tool and Google data centers. I mean, you know, seriously, it's um I have been collecting data center, you know, articles and reports and everything else for, you know, what, a couple of years now. It's a really big topic, and that's why we have so many um stakeholders involved in this conversation. Um, I will say if you want to go to the Colorado General Assembly website, um, we actually this year have some science, new science fellows who are um have put out a couple of reports on data centers. Um so those should theoretically be, you know, those are our nonpartisan staff, so those should be unbiased reports that are trying to gather information. Lots of groups um have reports on data centers. Um Western resource advocates, um, Earth Justice, a lot of the um environmental groups have um reports and ideas where they're putting them out. Um and probably gosh, most any group is coming out. Every lots of different groups are coming out with lots of different um reports on data centers, but also just, I mean, read the articles, read the stories about what is happening in other states. And that is one of the advantages we have. So Colorado currently has upwards of 60 data centers, more being built right now. But those are not what we call hyperscalers, those really big data centers that are going to be especially huge. Um, so um the biggest one being built in Colorado right now, I believe, is 177 megawatts. The one that is being built just over the border in Wyoming, um near Cheyenne, I believe, is 1.8 gigawatts.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

That's that's a lot bigger.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

That's enormous, right? And that's gonna scale up to like 10 gigawatts. And I think that was the one that they said that could like double the entire electrical usage in Wyoming. So it is um an enormous, enormous scale. And so the hyperscalers are the ones who are really, I think, pushing this and wanting them to come, right? There's a lot of the smaller ones being developed right now, and so you know, small as in context. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Well, I mean, we're not gonna be bored, that's for sure, as we work our way through this. Right. We'll post in the show notes links to both of the bills so you can read them for yourself. They're pretty long and pretty detailed, but check them out. We'll also post links to a couple of really interesting articles that I think do a good job of laying out the issue. Uh, as always, if you have something to say, you're welcome to show up in committee and testify. Everybody is always able to testify on any bill that they find of interest down there at the Capitol. Uh, or if you would like to reach out to the good senator or any of the other elected officials working on it, feel free. We'll post some contact information there as well. Uh, but otherwise, I would stay tuned because this is going to be a really interesting one for the remainder of this session. I certainly do hope that something good can get done this session. I also suspect it'll wind up being a conversation that'll continue for many, many years. So there's never been a better time to start paying attention and get involved.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Yeah. And I will just say, you know, and don't just reach out to people like me. I mean, I kind of already know what I think. Um, not that I don't care what you think, but the other thing to do is to make sure, look, go look up who your legislator is, right? Write to your um state house representative or your state senator because they should know what you think about this issue. It's really important.

SPEAKER_00 28:52

That's absolutely right. And they work for you. So feel free to give a check.

SPEAKER_01 28:55

I will just say please uh put your name and your address in there because ones that I have no signature that people don't want me to know who they are, say I'm a Colorado constituent. Just, you know, even put a zip code in there and your name. Then you are much more likely to get a response.

SPEAKER_00 29:10

That's right. Well, so there, thank you so much for joining us. We'll obviously be watching this with great interest as it develops. I know you're going to be very busy, so good luck down there. And thank you for talking to us today.

SPEAKER_01 29:20

Thank you for taking an interest in it. We appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

That'll do it for today's episode of the straight up 30. We'll see you back here next week for another policy issue that matters.