Episode 6 - Tommy Conners' American Hustle

A career doesn’t survive on hype; it survives on songs. We sit down with veteran songwriter Tommy Connors to map the gritty, unglamorous path from Texas beer joints to Nashville cuts, including the surreal moment of hearing his own work tracked at Muscle Shoals and the validation of a Willie Nelson recording in his first year in town. Tommy shares how a grandmother’s soprano, a father’s vinyl stack, and a living-room encounter with Mickey Newbury shaped a writer who prizes honesty over cleverness and story over sparkle.

What unfolds is a working blueprint for creative endurance. We dig into the habits he built at Warner Chappell—arrive early, shut up, listen—and the brutal, invaluable feedback from producer Bob Montgomery that burned away his fear of rewriting. Tommy explains why the best co-writes begin with an hour of real conversation, not a scramble for hooks, and how listening to people in noisy bars taught him to bottle emotion that audiences actually feel. We tackle the modern terrain too: how streaming and AI changed the business, why they’re tools in the hands of true writers, and where human connection still trumps speed and screens.

Beyond the studio, Tommy opens up about choosing fatherhood over a record deal, staying married for decades in a chaotic industry, and the don’t-quit moments when hope was down to a blade of grass. The takeaways apply far beyond music: cultivate taste, learn from masters, rewrite without pride, and keep your word when easier money calls. If you’ve ever asked how to build work that lasts when trends spin and platforms shift, this conversation is a north star. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs encouragement, and leave a review to help more creators find their long game.

Credits

Host: Austin Moody

Guest: Tommy Conners

Videography & Edit: Zack Knudsen

Graphic Design: Zack Knudsen

Executive Production: Mid Century Western

Creative Direction: Brandon Carswell

Recorded On-Location in Nashville, TN

Transcript

A Quiet Teacher Of Songs

SPEAKER_00 0:07

I've always believed the best teachers aren't the loudest. They're the ones who stay. Tommy Connor started in Texas bear joints, made the move to Nashville, and built a career that most riders only dream about. He's had songs recorded by Willie Nelson, Travis Tripp, Kenny Rogers, and then some a Tony Award nomination, and decades in a town that chews people up. But what I respect most isn't about the accolades. It's that he still writes, still sharpens the blade, and still believes the song comes first. This one's about the long game. This is American Hustle. Tommy Connors, thanks for being on American Hustle today.

SPEAKER_03 0:46

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

We go way back.

SPEAKER_03 0:51

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

When I first moved to town. Yeah, you were uh young and 15 years ago.

SPEAKER_03 0:58

God might.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

You were a young. I was. Still am.

SPEAKER_03 1:05

I know. You don't have to brag about it though.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

So Tommy was uh my uh early on became a mentor and a friend, uh dear friend uh in my life, and you're you're one of the uh people who stayed consistent in my life. Day I met you, I met Tommy Connors, and it's no different today. And that's what I love about you. Tommy Connors is Tommy Connors.

SPEAKER_03 1:38

Scenery never changes where I am, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah. So uh you uh grew up down in Houston. Yeah. Um when did you move to Nashville?

SPEAKER_03 1:53

I moved to Nashville September of 1987. The uh I'd been playing live down there for for quite a few years, for a lot of years, and uh had a nice following down there and and oil field was booming, and when the oil field's booming, everything is booming down there, you know. Yeah. And um then the oil field tanked, and um I'd always thought about I'd been coming up here since 73 was the first time I came up here. And um I'd all I knew I was 19 the first time, 19 or 20, the first time I came here, and I knew that this is where I wanted to be, but I was making money and getting married and getting divorced and getting married and getting divorced, you know. And uh so anyway, when the when the oil field went down, I I just thought, man, if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna go, I need to go. And I did, and I had some encouragement, you know, to at the time to to move on up here. So I loaded up an old 78 Silverado with my clothes and my guitar, and here I came, you know, been here ever since.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Well, you came, I mean, you came up and you were going back and forth for a while, right? No. Or you just came up here. Did you come up here just cold?

SPEAKER_03 3:33

Well, I can't I came back and forth uh for a number of years. You know, I'd come up here and spend three or four days hanging out. Uh I'd have a friend who was cutting, or I'd, you know, and I'd come up and hang in the studio. But but uh but no, once I I never but it would be like two years, you know, in between, three years in between, and then longer in between, you know, and finally when I made the dis uh the decision to move up here, I just went all in and and came, you know. So and just started all over.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Do you know anybody up here?

SPEAKER_03 4:18

I know a few people, you know. Um Bob Montgomery was a mentor early on. Um and he encouraged me to move up, not at first, you know, but but eventually um encouraged me to move up. And uh Mickey Newberry was uh we grew up in the same neighborhood down in in uh Houston, and so I knew him through some cousins, not well at the time, but he we became close and he he encouraged me to move up, and so when it was kind of like the universe was coming coming in at me at the time, and I thought, well, that's you know, if I'm gonna do it, I need to go on and go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:07

So well, Mickey Newberry, didn't you tell me one time that the only outside song he ever cut was one you wrote?

SPEAKER_03 5:17

Yeah, I think I think that's right. Um I know he he only co-wrote one one song, and that was uh with Townsman Zant. And that was on a record of his, but I I believe that to be true. Oh um.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

So I mean, he was one of your uh I guess uh idols and and mentors as far as songwriting and the craft. Uh when somebody like that that you admire so much cuts one of your songs, what's that feel like?

Muscle Shoals And Mickey Newbury

SPEAKER_03 6:01

I you know, it was uh I went he cut it down to Muscle Shoals with Jimmy Johnson and all that thing that crew down there, and and uh I went down there with him. Me and uh Tony Jolene, great singer and songwriter. And uh she hadn't moved up here yet, but uh this was like right after I moved here, just right after I moved here. I'd only been here a couple three weeks, something like that. And so I went down there and hung out with him for about four days um and watched him cut this this record. The record never came out, but I got to sit there and watch him do my song. It was pretty surreal, you know. It wasn't uh it was uh I don't think I really grasped, you know, what was what was actually happening. It was almost like I was watching watching someone or something else, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

So were so they that they cut it at Muscle Shoal Sound? Yeah. Was it like Jimmy Johnson and Roger Hawkins and all those guys?

SPEAKER_03 7:19

I don't I don't remember who the rest of the band was. I remember I sat out there and ate uh drank some bourbon and ate some of them nasty red hot dogs with uh with Donnie Fritz. I was pretty impressed with that. Yeah, you know good old red roller dogs. Oh, God. All that red stuff bleeding out on the bun.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I've had those. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

Um man, that's uh what was Muscle Shoals like back then? Nothing.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

That was all I saw of it. Oh, really? That was all I saw of it. Um went down there, we were staying at a hotel, and and would get up and go to the studio with them. And um and then I had to I had to get back because I had a I had a day job down there and I got on a bus and uh and came back from muscle shoals. It was uh it was a that was that's another story entirely. That was a nightmare. But uh yeah, I was just you know, I was kind of uh I was actually kind of stunned by the and humbled by the whole experience of watching all that go down.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

Because I was so green, I was I was so new at Was that your first time like seeing a session? No. Okay, no, it wasn't my first time seeing a session. Yeah, but that was the first time I saw Mickey Newberry and they're singing and the singing scratches, you know. Yeah. And of course I knew who Jimmy Johnson and all those guys w were and what they had done, you know. So that's that's some pie cotton, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Yeah. Man. So let's go back to Texas. Um what did what did life look like growing up in your house? And where did because I mean did someone in your family play music? I mean, I know your your uh you know, family was uh worked ranches and and uh did things there in Houston. Uh was there somebody in your house that played music or how where did music come in at play in your life?

SPEAKER_03 9:50

We um my grandmother sang had a real beautiful high soprano operatic voice. And she she sang in in church. She wanted to sing professionally, but back in those days in the early, you know, part of the 20th century, Nicasian girls didn't go go sing in public like that. They sang in in the church, you know. And she did, and that that was probably my d uh my dad had a huge record vinyl collection. He listened to everything from George Jones to, you know, to opera to classical stuff, jazz, you know, there was there was just always music playing uh in the background. And then on Saturday afternoons, all the 30-minute country shows came in from Nashville. There was one local show down there, the Gulf Coast Furniture Warehouse Jamboree, you know, with Utah Carl and the band, you know. And he would come on, and then it would be like uh Porter and the Wilburn brothers, Jim and Jesse, you know, and um we'd sit and we'd watch those shows religiously every and I just gradually, I guess over time, just caught the bug, you know.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

Yeah.

Family Music And Early Sparks

SPEAKER_03 11:22

And then I um when I was about 12, I guess, uh, we were over visiting some cousins one night. And there's this little guy sitting over in the corner, and there's a old beat-up 12-string Gibson guitar leaning over there, you know. I didn't know, but it was Mickey. And he was already here. And this is back in this would have been back in the 60s. He was already here, he already had songs on the radio. I mean, at that time, uh like Don Gibson had a big hit on Funny, familiar, forgotten feelings, I think was out. And and he was just intervising, and and my cousin asked him if he would he would play it. And uh he said, Yeah, he picks up the guitar and he starts singing all these songs, you know, and and he sang San Francisco Mabel Joy. And uh and I was just sitting there going, now this guy wrote all these things, you know, and I was so after that night, everything else in my mind was just a distraction. Uh yeah. I I caught the bug big so I after that I was just I was just all in. I I studied it. I started singing where I could when I was like 12, 13, anywhere anybody would listen to me, you know.

SPEAKER_00 12:58

So picking up audio. Good. Okay. So uh were you were you uh more fascinated with the songwriting part or the playing part? Uh what was the thing you grasped onto? Because I know you played a bunch of clubs in Texas and got on the circuit down there. And like for me, I was I think I've always uh gone after the performance part. I like playing and I like being on stage and I know you do too. But uh, you know, uh what was what was that thing? Did you did you was it kind of equal or would you like songwriting more?

SPEAKER_03 13:52

You know, I I didn't really um for me it was getting up on on stage and singing.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:04

And um I didn't really get I didn't even really start taking a stab at songwriting and writing songs until I was about 17, 18 when I got to college. And um I don't think I knew enough when I was younger. I hear all these people talking about, oh yeah, I started writing when I was 10 or 12 or 13 or 14 or something like that. And it's like I didn't I didn't know near enough of anything to to start writing stuff down back then. But I started I started seriously thinking about it, you know, right about that time. And I dabbled in it and I'd, you know, I'd write stuff and I'd look at it and go, Well, that sucks, and I'd throw it away and you know, um, I didn't have a recorder or, you know, anything like that back then. So I'd write this stuff down, I'd look at it, and I'd go, geez, that's stupid, and I'd throw it away. Yeah. And I just, but I just kept writing and throwing away, you know, until I I really started uh at some point, I don't know, something snapped, and I just thought, man, this is this is what I want to do.

Performance Versus Songwriting

SPEAKER_00 15:26

You know. You think playing clubs and just playing live down there uh kind of helped develop your your songwriting because you were able to see what people reacted to, or like how did how did playing live transfer over into writing?

SPEAKER_03 15:48

Well, that's an awful lot to do with it. I think it I think it was I like people, you know, and I like uh I like hearing stories. And the more bizarre the better. And boy, if you if you can't hear a weird story in a beer joint, you're not listening close enough, you know. And um I think that's what I just started storing all that that stuff back, you know, and and when I caught myself when I was when I was writing when I first started, I was just trying to make make up stuff. And then one day I just started some thought occurred to me that it was something someone had said, and so I just started applying all that um to what I was writing, and that's when it started getting it really interesting for me when I started uh to think about uh uh telling a story as it was told my interpretation of a story that was told as it was told to me, you know, became a lot more interesting than just uh trying to think of something clever, because I'm not all that cle clever a guy, you know.

Real Stories Beat Clever Tricks

SPEAKER_00 17:11

Yeah, I think there's uh a few different types of songwriters. There's the guys who are clever, and uh there's the guys that when you hear something they wrote, you can you say to yourself, this dude has lived that. This this guy has experienced some life and uh that's what I think when I hear your stuff, it's so original, no one else could tell that story the way you wrote some of these songs. Um and that's what I that's what I love, uh, as you know. Um and you know, then there's the guys who go, oh man, I can they're clever and they can make stuff up really good. You know, I'm not drawn to that. There's a lot of those guys that make a ton of money doing it. But uh for me, I've I've always been drawn to that real story, you know, and uh which we don't have a lot of that. There there is some of that, you know, in today's country, but there's not as much as used to be. Uh you know. Uh so my next question is and we'll go back and forth, but uh from the time you moved to Nashville to now, you think the town's got soft? Has it gone soft? Has it gone soft?

SPEAKER_03 18:47

Uh yeah, I don't I don't know. Things um I'm I'm becoming a lot more philosophical about that kind of stuff and just uh more accepting of uh as as time goes by, you know, I I used to uh I'd see when streaming came along, you know, like, oh geez, you know, and I had a pretty negative view of it just because I mean I was right in the middle of it and and everything around me was changing so fast. And you know, it's just the progression of things. Yeah. It's um I you know, I and now I just it just is what it is to me.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 19:36

You know, it's like with the whole AI thing that's come that's come along. At first, I, you know, I heard of guys, you know, actually writing with that, and I don't know, no, that's but then I watched it more from that to becoming a tool for uh for writers, you know, who were were writing lyric and writing melody and and uh were actual songwriters and saw this become a tool for that, and it's like, oh well, you know, and yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_03 20:15

Time goes that way, you know. Oh sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

Um I guess.

Has Nashville Gone Soft

SPEAKER_03 20:20

But as far as going soft, I don't I don't know whether soft is the correct the the correct word or the word I would I would use. I know I see what you're saying, but um yeah, I think the music business is just exactly that. It's the music business. Right. And um all I ever really cared about was was singing, playing the guitar and and writing stuff down, you know, writing songs. And my sister got all the business sense in the family.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

I'm afraid, but uh so what was your first cut when you got to town? Uh your first big cut?

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Willie Nelson. Uh first year I was here, I got a Willie Nelson cut. Yeah. I mean, I was the thing I'd written back in Texas with uh a guy that I used to work uh work in the bars with, a guy named Richard Wesley, and I used to sit down and bat stuff back and ideas back and forth and that sort of thing. And and it was uh so it was actually a song that I'd written before before I got here. But Bob Montgomery had always been a big fan of the song, and uh uh actually the song was before Willie cut it. Uh that was the one that Newberry had cut. And I heard, I never got to hear it, that um Johnny Paycheck had cut it. And I never I never got to. Hear that, but uh um a publisher told me, said, Yeah, he paycheck cut that. And I went, Oh well, great. How do I hear it? And then Johnny died, and that was yeah, kind of went away, but it was that it was that song. So I I remember thinking, yeah, this thing may not be as hard as what I thought it was gonna be. And I think then it was about two years before I got something else, something else cut.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

But what did that song what that song do for you at the time? Like getting a Willie cut was a big deal.

SPEAKER_03 22:38

I mean, yeah, it it it was a very big deal, you know. I mean, because Willie was one of my heroes. I mean, Ellie's from Texas, and and I literally wore out two vinyl records in my I mean, literally ran a needle through them. And one of them was Willie Nelson's life at Panther Hall Ballroom record, which goes back. I mean, that was that was uh short slick back hair and Nahru suit Willie, you know. And um but just a great record. That and rubber soul, uh Beatles rubber soul. I just I literally wore out uh copies of those things and had to go buy new ones, you know. Yeah. But but yeah, it was a it was uh it was a very big deal to me. And uh it kind of gave me more than anything else a little validation for the move.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Right.

SPEAKER_03 23:47

Uh coming, you know, leaving my home and in Texas and my family and and all that and and coming up here kind of kind of gave me a little little street cred with the family anyway.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

Right. Yeah. Well with the town too. Well having a major artist cut a song then Willie Nelson in his prime.

SPEAKER_03 24:11

Yeah, it was uh Yeah, Fred Foster produced it. So that was very cool in itself, you know.

First Big Cut With Willie Nelson

SPEAKER_00 24:21

So um what was um what was the moment in Texas uh that you knew moving to Nashville was the what you needed to do?

SPEAKER_03 24:40

Like I said, I I'd when I came up here, uh I came up here with an old friend, uh great singer and songwriter down there named Mundo Earwood. Mundo uh wrote You're in Love with the Wrong Man and had a couple of big hits. Mel Tillis cut a couple of his things, and and um he had a record deal up here at the time. So he and I when we were like 18 would sit down and we kind of started trying to write, you know, figure it all out. And um, but he got a record deal in the meantime, so I first time I flew in an airplane was from Houston to Nashville. And with Mundo, he came up and cut a cut a record one week. He was on the old Metro Media label. And man, I knew then that's what I this is what I wanted to do. But like I said, life it was that was probably the first time life got in the way, and so it took me a while to get here, but yeah, I've been here a while now, you know.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

So uh yeah, I mean you sounds like you went through some life and then you had another opportunity. Yeah, and you took it. Yep.

SPEAKER_03 26:04

Yeah, it just got to the point down there where it was like, yeah, you know, I'd been doing it for so long, and it was like, yeah, book another club thing, or you know, go do this or go do that. And I didn't feel I felt like I was just spinning my wheels down there. I mean, I enjoyed the work. I I enjoyed what I was doing, but I was just getting to the point where and there were a couple other factors that that came into play as well. Uh and I just needed to it was time I I knew in my heart that it was time for me to to go. Yeah. You know. So I did. You know, right. It ain't so easy to, you know, there's a time when it w everybody needs to jump and run when they're young enough to still do that.

SPEAKER_00 27:07

Right. Saw the opportunity, you took it. Yeah. Uh so uh you got up here. Uh was that where you and Paige Dayton at that time when we moved?

SPEAKER_03 27:20

We moved here together. I have no past here, thank God.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Yeah, yeah. And she just got what uh nominated for uh Yeah, she's going into the uh Source Hall of Fame.

SPEAKER_03 27:32

That's a school man. Yeah. She deserves it.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah, you know, she's a legend. Yeah. Yeah. She is. Yeah. How long have y'all been married?

SPEAKER_03 27:45

Uh well, I think we've been married 35 years. About 35 years somewhere along in there. Sorry, babe. Uh but uh yeah, 35 we've been we were we've been married for 35 years, we've been together for 45. Because we were together for 10 years before before we actually long consideration.

SPEAKER_00 28:21

Right. After after ten years of careful consideration, that's right. So 45 years together, you both worked in the music business the whole time. Uh what advice could you give to somebody to be able to maintain a marriage, especially, I mean, in any situation, but in the music business, you know, that's kind of that's a rarity, you know, uh uh with everything that goes on. But like maintaining a relationship, you know, uh two daughters that you've grown. Um what would you tell somebody? You know?

SPEAKER_03 29:12

You're talking to the wrong person.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

I don't you've done it. You've done it.

SPEAKER_03 29:17

Yeah. I you know, I don't know.

Choosing Nashville After Life Detours

SPEAKER_00 29:19

It but you picked a good one or just I did pick a good one.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

And I know that I still I still look at her sometimes and wonder what the hell she's doing with me, you know. I'm married up.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 29:33

And um, but you know, I I think the fact that we were such good friends before we ever started dating, you know. And I think of all the ups and downs and and and things like that, you know, um she's still the best friend I ever had. So I think I think that that matters a lot. You better like somebody a lot because all of the initial stuff is gonna wear off at some point, you know, and not necessarily that it wears off, that might be too extreme a uh a term, but um but I think it I think that if you're if you're friends with someone um in addition to all the other the other stuff that that goes with that, um there's a certain mutual respect that goes along with it. There's a lot of give and take, a lot of push and pull, you know. But uh at the end of the day, if you're uh if you're with someone like that, and I am you take you know you take it as it comes, you put one foot in front of the other and you move on. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Um why do you think uh that's gotten more rare and more rare for my generation, say I don't know, man.

SPEAKER_03 31:26

I think I think everything I don't know if anything's permanent anymore, you know? Uh things come at you so fast um with uh social media and you know and all this and the whole uh I think there's a certain disconnection amongst um younger people between I hate to say reality, that's too general a term, but but they um I'll give you an example. Texting drives me crazy because there's nothing human about it. You know, you can put as many emojis in as you want, you can LOL and exclamation point as oh an OMG as much as you want, but there's no human connector, there's no human nothing human about that. Um there's no inflection in someone's voice, there's no look on somebody's face when you you tell them something, you know. Uh uh there's no reaction to that.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

That's right.

Marriage, Friendship, And Longevity

SPEAKER_03 32:44

And I and I th and I th I think that I think that plays into a lot of different different things.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

And uh That's 100%. I I'm with you on that.

SPEAKER_03 32:56

And that's just you know, like I said, that's just one one example of that, but uh but I think it I think it's affected a lot of people. You know?

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Yeah, and I mean uh also I think there's this like a sense of, you know, not ne necessarily reality or alter reality, whatever, that you know, who knows what it is, but it just feels like there's coming from my generation that people think or assume there's uh the grass is always greener on the other side, you know? Like, and uh divorce has uh it's like I can't tell you how many times I've heard young people go, uh if it don't work out, we can just get divorced. Like it's nothing, right? And um most of the time what happens is they get on the other side of it and realize, well, wait a minute, uh, you know, uh this isn't what I thought it was gonna be. Yeah. Uh it's rarely what you think about. And we're dealing with uh uh generation of uh extreme victimhood. Yeah. Um your dad was in World War II. You know, that's who you were raised by. My dad's dad was in World War II, my grandfather. Uh they did hard shit. Yeah, they did. They made men back then. You know, s you know, your granddad, you know, your dad, uh, uh my grandfather, it's like they were the type of men that could one day they're working a regular job, the next week they're being shipped out to be in charge of a tank division in a foreign country.

SPEAKER_03 34:54

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

And picking up that torch and carrying it, then coming home and going back to work. Yeah. Um they didn't do things perfect, but really they they made the this decision to commit to something. Yes. Right? Yeah. Uh but going back to this is interesting because going back to the text, and um I agree with you on that. And I think it has gotten to a point even outside of relationships, um business, say for example, texting. Like for me, I'm black and white in a text. Uh I'm very black and white. It's like texting to me is here are the facts about the situation. I don't need to have a conversation about this. There's no emotion about this, you know. And here's the text. And I have now it depends on what type of business you're in, right? So for a home service business, now that's you're you're dealing with uh strangers. So you try to make everything sound warm. You want to be very customer service oriented, uh on the creative side, you know, with uh doing stuff with in the creative agency, dealing with clients that you know that you I'm very black and white. This is the deal, this is the contract, this is the job, right? And some of them, it's like they've gotten so used to like texting being a quote unquote emotional thing, they'll call me and be like, you you you sound mad. It's like, no, this has nothing to do with uh the way I feel about you personally. I love you. This is about our business. They're two separated things. In relationships, it's like if if you got time to write me a damn book, you got time to have a conversation with me. Exactly. You know, if I if I'm telling you, hey, I'm I'm running late at work, I don't need to call you and have you a conversation about it. Hey, I'm running late, or this or that, or is there anything else you need at the grocery store, or whatever. It's like it involves no emotion. But if there's emotion that has to be involved, if there's a conversation that needs to take place to where you can hear each other's tone of voice, uh and that conversation needs to take place, it doesn't need to happen in a text message. Yeah. Planning something.

SPEAKER_03 37:43

I mean, you know, it's I and and again, it might it might just be my uh a generational thing, but uh I remember, you know, having um my family just sitting around and and talking. Yeah, you know, with my you know, my cousins, my aunts, my uncles, my grandparents, you know, they would just sit around and and visit. You know, and I think that's uh as far as this whole texting thing, I you know, I want to talk to somebody.

SPEAKER_00 38:19

Right.

Texting, Connection, And Generations

SPEAKER_03 38:20

You know, I want that, I want that connection of of actually, I have uh my dear friend Roger Brown, who you know well, uh he and I will he's the only probably the only person I do this with anymore, but he and I'll get on the phone, I'll look down at my phone, we've been talking for an hour and a half.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Well, wait a minute, you and I do that too. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:45

Yeah, we do that.

SPEAKER_00 38:49

You can get if you if you finally get a hold of me.

SPEAKER_03 38:51

Yeah but no, but but you see, well, you see what I'm saying. Totally. Um another dear friend, Don Sampson, who, you know, as you know, Don's a great songwriter.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

And Don was probably the first like real friend I made when I got when I got here. And he and I go way back. He was bet best man at my wedding. But um, you know, we'll start, I'll get a text from him, and it'll be a one-line thing, hey this, and I'm answering back, hey, this with a little extra. And next thing you know, what about that? And he'll text me back. Next thing I know, the phone rings.

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Right.

SPEAKER_03 39:35

Or I'll go, ah, hell with that, and I'll just call him.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

Sure. Well, you know, what's interesting is uh that's why I liked writing with you early on so much and continue to. We haven't wrote in a while, we need to, but um was when we would sit down to write, it wasn't all right, let's uh pull out the ideas, let's try to figure out a melody. It's like, no, we had a cup of coffee. What's going on in your world, what's going on in mine? And you know, we might sit there for an hour and talk before we even pick up a guitar.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 40:17

And nine times out of ten, whatever we were writing about would come out of what we were talking about. Um, you know, uh, again, it it is the music business. And uh from the stories I've heard, you know, you talk about that's that's sort of how uh I view like how it used to happen. There used to be conversations that happen in the songwriting rooms, and they still do. But um, you know, when you really get into the business side of things, it's like as a songwriter, you know, you've seen it change. Uh I have a little bit. Uh I don't do a lot of songwriting sessions anymore. Um unless there's something to write for, unless I'm gonna cut something or there's some special project, because you know, people don't cut a lot of outside songs, that all that's changed. But I I uh I I'm gonna not gonna say I miss that part because if I write a song, that's how it's gonna happen. We're gonna have a conversation. And I'm not gonna write with people that want to sit there and try to turn out in a song in an in an hour. Uh I d I just personally don't feel like that's how great music gets made. Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes something just hits and the inspiration is there. I mean, you know, fathers and sons, didn't that you wrote that in a frickin morning. You can't think. You know, uh there's times that happens. Uh, but I think the real the real meat. Uh all my favorite writers, you included, you know, uh uh. Um gosh, having a blank. Bob Oh, Bob McDill. Yeah, Bob McDill. It's like, you know, I'd hear stories about him, he'd take a month to write one song sometimes. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 42:21

You know. Hugh Presswood used to do that. Yeah. One of the few times I I I spoke to him, he he said, Yeah, he said, I write 10 or 12 songs a year. And every one of them got, you know, and every one of them was just brilliant, you know. Um, I know um when I first got up here and and I didn't know what I was doing, you know. I I really didn't, because I was writing by myself and with a couple other guys uh back home, but I had no earthly idea what co-writing really was and collab real collaboration was. And um so uh a friend of mine set me up with my first co-write. I didn't know this guy. Turned out to be a he's still rallying, and he's a great guy, you know. But he sat there with me, and it had to be one of the most excruciatingly painful things that he had ever done because I didn't know what to do, I didn't know what to say. Yeah, you know, I I didn't know how it worked, and I left there just feeling horrible, and I'm sure he was feeling horrible too. But uh but I got to thinking about it that day, you know, and it was like, holy shit, I gotta get to work.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

Yeah.

Writing Starts With Conversation

SPEAKER_03 43:55

Because I don't know what I'm doing. I gotta go to school and I gotta go quick. You know. Yeah. So no more, you know, you know, I'd I'd get in a room with with someone, and I'd everybody that I got in a room with, whether I wound up getting a song with them or not, I would I would learn stuff from them, you know. Uh and uh I was fortunate enough to get get with some really really good people. And some of the older guys that were still around when I first got here, too, boy, that was some that was some tough love. That was some brutal stuff, you know. Yeah. But uh God, the what I learned from from those guys and and going through that uh discomfort. Yeah. You know, see, that's how I talk about writing with you. Yeah, it was oh boy. But you know, I mean it's it was priceless. It was like we were talking earlier, you know, about you know, going as far back with uh with Jeff as I do, you know. I mean, I I I watched those those uh musicians, you know, and I learned how to how to produce those those demo sessions by watching them and going to other people's demo sessions and watching them, see how they did it. Yeah, you know, and guys who were having like big records back then, and um, and see how they were doing it. And um, you know, and and being being willing to learn and not letting, you know, ego get in the way or pride or whatever, and go, wow, you know, yeah. And putting up a front, you know, on on that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 45:52

So what did a a working day uh look like for you, say when you were at Warner Chapel? Like what what's a songwriter's work day look like? I don't know.

Learning The Craft And Tough Love

SPEAKER_03 46:05

I well I was always there early. Um I got that from Don Sampson. Because he was always he was always the first one there, you know. And um I got in a habit when he and I were writing uh a lot early on. I just got in the habit of doing that, of being there, you know, 6 37 o'clock in the morning, drink a cup of coffee and start smoking cigarettes and just go to work, you know. And um I would show up, I would show up over there, uh I don't know, eight o'clock in the morning, you know. And the other good thing about doing that was the fact that as people started, you know, coming in, because there was a lot of great writers over there, you know. My God, uh Michael Clark would always show up early like that. So I wound up sitting in there and smoking pipes and cigars and drinking coffee with him. And you know, I'd keep my ears open and everything he'd he'd tell me, and they were all willing. Those guys like that back then were were I think they were they were more willing to impart um uh things to you, uh little tricks of the trade and tricks of the craft. Uh they were they wanted to pass it along. Yeah. You know. And uh so I just keep my mouth shut and my my my ears open, you know. I mean, because I'm sitting here, I'm sitting there with with uh just for example with with with Michael and Steve Bogard and Jeff Stevens and all these guys that were just wonderful writers, you know. And I just keep my mouth shut and sit back in the corner and just absorb, you know, and I learned an awful lot from those guys and and doing it that way.

SPEAKER_00 48:22

Interesting you say that because, like, you know, um, you were the guy that said, um, I'm gonna give you the best piece of advice you're ever gonna get in this town. Shut the f up.

SPEAKER_03 48:40

Shut the fuck up. And De Vincent Williams has never let me forget that either.

SPEAKER_00 48:47

And so uh what's interesting is that that translates over into life, any type of business. Yeah. You know, I've I still do my artistry stuff and different things. Uh it's my first love, I'll always do it, you know. But that for anybody starting any type of business, doing anything in their life, like not being the guy that goes in, you know, having to be the loudest, having to be have all the ideas, it's like take time and learn from the guys who have done it. Yeah. Whether you're in the out railroad business trying to start a plumb and out, whatever it is. It's like sit there and watch the old man, you know, listen. Yeah. And because if you do that, you'll be the guy that gets invited uh back into the room. That you'll be the guy that the mechanic looks at and goes, I like that guy because he doesn't annoy me. Come here, come here and let me show you some stuff. Ride with me today. And there's something about that. It's like, you know, maybe uh take time to learn from the guys who've actually done it and get off the phone, get tr get off the YouTube, get off social media, and go learn, you know, from the dudes. And uh so much of what I learned from the in the home service business, I'd already learned in the music business. Yeah. You know, lessons I was taught, and you know, and regardless, it's just like music. You know, if you don't write a song that makes them feel, it doesn't matter. You know, uh in the pressure washing business. If you you can present the best service in the world, you can present here's our before and afters. Anyone can do that. Yeah. It's about how you make them feel. People remember how you make them feel. Exactly. You know. Um, not your resume. Uh just like podcasts I did with Steve Dore, you know. It's all about the feel, the vibe, you know. And then so brilliant. But um what do you think separates a hobbyist from a professional songwriter? Money.

SPEAKER_01 51:18

Money.

SPEAKER_03 51:19

Um if you're there there's also like the craft, too, right? Yes. But I you know, but if you're if you're chasing songs in a commercial environment, sure, and that's what you're looking to is your bread and butter. You're a pro.

SPEAKER_00 51:43

Yeah. Sure. Well, uh and also like, you know, you meet the you meet folks where they go, man, I've wrote all these songs. And they actually think they're great, right? And they're not great, but they don't they can you know it's that thing where you were you can write a song when you were younger. You you had that that gift of knowing, like, this sucks. This sucks. This sucks. What's interesting to me is like some people have that, some people don't. Some people don't even know when they suck, but they think they're great. It's an interest interesting thing. Um, you know, I think I suck when I when it's somebody else thinks it's great. Now, and it's not just my mom saying it's great, right? Yeah. But uh, you know, it's like when I moved from East Tennessee, I thought I had something to offer Nashville. I got here and realized real quick, oh crap. Yeah, you know, uh I don't deserve to be here. So I gotta get to work.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

Yeah.

A Working Day At Warner Chappell

SPEAKER_00 52:46

You know, I gotta go out and earn my stripes. Yeah. And luckily, you know, early on I was neighbors with D Vincent. He was the guy that told me, if you gotta go make a living playing music, get out of town. And I was already living here. So, you know, I went up to Pigeon Forge and would play to make money just to stay in Nashville. Yeah. But I could go out there and be terrible. I could totally bomb. I could, but it gave me an opportunity to try things and to uh I was allowed to be bad, you know. And you know, this town you only get you only get a one first impression any given time. And that's translates over into anything. You got one first impression.

SPEAKER_02 53:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:36

You know, are you are you willing to do what it takes to get ready for that and to be prepared for that? Um or are you gonna go in with what you got and lose the next opportunity, you know? So it's interesting, you know, uh how much how much everything translates, you know. Not mu you know, the music business is the music business.

Shut Up, Listen, Get Invited Back

SPEAKER_03 54:00

And um well, I'll you know uh I've said this many times and I'll say it again because it's the it's the God's truth. Um I learned more about writing songs from pitching songs to Bob Montgomery than I learned anywhere else. Because I would go in and um he was an interesting guy, he would listen to ideas. I'd have, boy, I got this this idea for this thing, and I've I'm about to verse in and let me hear it. You know, and I'd play it for him. Yeah, and uh he'd go, Yeah, you might have something there, or not, you know. But I'd take something in that I had really worked on, and he'd be whoever for whoever it was he was he was cutting at the time. And um I'd think, boy, this is I'd get through it and this is really good. This is really good. And I'd take it to him, and he used to close his eyes and throw his head back, and he would listen to a whole song, which was uncomfortable. When I first got here, I couldn't I couldn't believe that people would listen to a verse, verse in a chorus, and go, nah, that's not what we're we're looking for, you know. Bob wasn't that. He would sit there and listen to the whole thing. And then he'd pause for a minute just long enough to make you like real nervous, you know. And uh, but he'd hand him a tape back and he'd go, you know what? You had me right until the second verse, Bubba. Now, this is something I had I'd really worked on, yeah, you know, and taken some time on, and I thought, man, this is you had me till the second verse, and he'd pass tape back to me, and he'd go, go write a second verse that and then bring it back. And I'd walk out of there and I'd just be so mad I couldn't see straight. You know, I mean, I'm grinding the enamel off my teeth. I'm I'm so mad. Yeah. And then I'd get home and I'd calm down, or wherever I was going, I'd calm down and I'd look at it and I'd go, damn it. You're fucking right. And so I'd go write another second verse, and I'd take the damn thing back. Ah, I think you got a better one in you. You know, hand it back to me again, and boy, I'd walk, I'd walk out pissed off again, you know, and then I'd get home and I'd do the same thing. It was like, you know, uh every time, you know, and I finally got to the point where, you know, if he told me, uh, you probably need to look at this or you need to look at that, and it's like, cool, I'll be I'll yell at you later, you know, and I'd just take it and just go do it. Because I was scared to death to rewrite. And after that, I wasn't ever scared to rewrite. Yeah. I re matter of fact, I got to where I'd rewrite too much if left to my own devices, you know. Uh, but I learned an awful lot from him him doing that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 57:34

Yeah. What do you want your songs to say about you when you're gone?

SPEAKER_03 57:43

I don't know. That's an interesting question. That is an interesting question. I would hope that the ones that I've that I've written that uh were about specific things and uh I would hope they hold up, you know, that twenty years from now, you know, somebody could listen to them and go, oh yeah, I get I get that. Or, you know, they re uh can relate however it is they relate.

SPEAKER_02 58:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

You know, however it is they choose to interpret it. You know, there's nothing worse. And I'm sure you've had this. Well, what you know, play a song for somebody and they go, Well, what's that? What do you mean by that? What the hell, what's it mean to you?

SPEAKER_02 58:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 58:43

You know songs uh songs that that that are open to interpretation like that, I think are interesting. And so if I had to if I had to say anything, I would hope that that when I'm gone those songs hold up.

SPEAKER_00 59:04

I know a lot of them ain't you know enough enough of them will because I know. But uh what was your biggest don't quit moment?

Hobbyist Versus Pro And Taste

SPEAKER_03 59:18

Uh are you talking about just bullheadedness? Just life. Just uh I got a b I got a big dose of it. Um back in 2000, I guess it was. Had about three or four years where life was just beating the hell out of me, you know, and it was hard to it was hard to go in and and sit down and try and write and and uh try and stay in, you know. Um there were a few times that I've I thought, man, you know what am I doing? You know, it's just I I had um I had a record deal thrown at me and wound up turning it down because my my kids had just been born and I made the very conscious decision to stay with my kids and not you know be a um few day a week dad. Um so I don't know. I I I think if I had to had to give you one one answer, it would be there there've been through the years there have been several of those those moments. But as my dad used to say just keep your your head down, your ass up, and you know, and and and keep keep going. I think it was uh I think there was a lot of uh if you're doing something where there's hope involved, whether it's hope, you know, there's a there's an opportunity to get this song out there or there's an opportunity to reach a goal that you have in mind. And even if it's that big of a little tiny shred of hope, if you can uh what's the old Irish thing where uh if you can if you can hold on to one blade of grass, and and I may be paraphrasing, but if you can hold on to one blade of grass and not fall off the face of the earth, you're not drunk, you know, it's it's almost you know, if you got one little tiny shred of of of hope that you can hang on to, I think that or at least for me, uh that was that was enough to keep me keep me going uh when I really needed something to to keep me going. When I thought, oh geez, I you know what what the hell am I doing here? And I so if I had to get one answer, I don't know. It's it's several because it's happening'll happen more than once.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

Yeah, especially in the in the music world and um that you know what separates the hobbyist from the professional for me is is that is the ones that are willing to stay with that much of hope, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:58

Um that's not enough for plus it's doing what you love, too.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:03

Yeah, but that's not enough for most people. Yeah. You know, it's like um there's no such thing as well, if I um I want to try this for five years, and if it don't work out Oh, I said that one time. You know.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:19

I remembered I said it like eight years later. Yeah. Um I had a couple opportunities putting my face to go into business or go to work for some people and just make a lot of money. And uh I had already been here four and a half years, five years, something like that. It's like, yo, there ain't no way I'm leaving here.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

Yeah. You know, no way. Guy named Dwayne Rowe, he was playing piano and band leading for Brooks and Dunn. I had an opportunity to uh go make six figures. This was like two, I don't know, 2013, 14. I just and I mean, you know, I was trying maybe in yeah. Uh uh I felt what I was doing just wasn't working. But also it was like, well, I could go do this for six months. That's what I was thinking. It's like, and go make some money and then come back. And I was taking piano lessons from him, actually. And I told him, I said, Hey, I'm thinking uh I was gonna be a crew chief for a blimp and travel around to soccer fields all over the world and races and be in charge of keeping a blimp afloat. And it was a great paying job, gonna get to see the world a little bit and make some really good money because I needed the money. And I told him, he said, if you go do that, you'll never come back. I said, why? He said, because you'll you won't want to come back to not know where your next paycheck's coming from. So I didn't go. But all right, man, I'm gonna have you on again. Well, enjoy it. I appreciate you being on here. Absolutely. Mommy Connors. If you got something out of this conversation, share it with someone who needs to hear it. Follow the show, subscribe, join the newsletter, and learn more about our guests at AmericanHustle.com. We're not here for noise. We're here for something. Until next time, walk in faith, speak the truth, and stay there. God bless.