Bar Break: Wellness for Lawyers

Bar Break: Wellness for Lawyers | Finding Balance

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 53:08

In the newest episode of Bar Break, we sit down with law firm partner Garrett Couts, partner at Brady & Hamilton LLP, and Jasmin Dodson, founding partner of the Dodson Legal Group, to talk about finding balance in a 24/7 world.

They share their wellness practices, what it looks like to set – and actually enforce – boundaries, reflect on why taking time off matters, and discuss practical ways to protect downtime when clients expect instant replies. They also dig into finding your law firm identity – how to define the boundaries that work for you and your practice, even when they look different from colleagues’ approaches.

Tune in for honest stories, useful tips, and a reminder that balance is a practice, not a destination!

🎧You can listen to this episode at the link below or wherever you listen to podcasts: https://tyla.org/resource/bar-break/

#tyla #younglawyers #legalpodcast #barbreak #findingbalance #worklifebalance #selfcare #wellness #boundaries

SPEAKER_00

You're listening to Bar Break, a Technical Young Lawyers Association podcast dedicated to supporting attorney wellness through honest relatable conversations.

SPEAKER_03

Join us as we explore real stories of setbacks, burnout, and growth, and share practical tools to navigate work-life balance and protect your mental health. This is Bar Break, where taking a pause helps you thrive.

SPEAKER_02

Welcome to the Bar Break Podcast, where we share our experiences in the legal field. This podcast is brought to you by the Texas Young Lawyers Associate. I'm Madison Langle, a family law attorney at Haugen Law Firm in Louisville, Texas, and today's topic is creating routine and finding balance amongst the practice of law. Today we are so excited to have two amazing guests with us, Jasmine Dotson and Garrett Captain. Jasmine Dotson is a founding partner of the Denton-based Dotson Legal Group, where she leads the firm's estate planning, probate, and guardianship practice. She is dedicated to educating and advocating for families, navigating Texas walls that impact their future and legacy. Inspired by her grandparents' example of compassionate service, Jasmine is passionate about guiding clients through probate, mediation, and legacy planning with care and therapy. Jasmine is licensed in Texas, Nevada, and California, and she is also a certified mediator and has served on the board of directors for the Denton County Bar Association. Garrett Couts is a partner with Brady and Hamilton LLP in Lubbock and Austin, Texas, where he practices agricultural law, estate planning, probate, real estate, energy, and business transactions. Garrett was raised in an agricultural family and brings deep West Texas roots in his serving landowners, families, and businesses. Garrett is a proud Texas Tech University and School of Law graduate. Garrett has experience in private practice at the Dallas Probate Court and on Capitol Hill working on the farm bill. He is an active leader in numerous organizations and a frequent CLE speaker, author, and lecturer. Let's welcome Jasmine and Garrett. Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thank you for having us. Jasmine, it's nice to meet you as well.

SPEAKER_00

Nice to meet you too, Garrett.

SPEAKER_02

All right, guys, we're just gonna get right into it. So, like I said, today's topic is routine and creating that balance amongst the practice of law and your livelihood. So, to start off, I would like for each of you to share what a typical day in your life looks like right now. Jasmine, I'll start with you. And then Garrett, you can follow them.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, well, let's see. Um, I am a mom of two teenage daughters. So right now, uh my job description also includes Uber mom event planning. Um, I'm a kind of a sports agent at times. My daughter plays volleyball. So keeping that in mind, a typical day for me is not, you know, I start off by getting my youngest daughter off to school. And then I usually kind of hop in front of the computer, check my day, see what's going on, um, what I need to do, get any meetings planned that I need to do. I have to set uh an alarm to remind me to get up from my computer to go eat lunch so I don't get trapped in my emails. And so I'll usually try to have lunch around lunchtime, but sometimes that doesn't really work. And then I'm off to pick up my daughter from school at around four o'clock. And then sometimes if there's more things that I need to get done, then I'll hop back on after I drop her off before I'm making dinner and then closing up the computer and making time with my family. Garrett.

SPEAKER_01

I can already tell you that Jasmine's more organized than I am, um, like just right out of the game. Um my typical day when I'm in the Lovick office, which is most days, vast majority at least, um, is hitting snooze on my alarm about five times. Uh I then finally force myself out of bed with my gigantic Labrador dog who weighs just about as much as I do. Um you can see his oh, by the way around. Hold on, his photograph. Gorgeous in my office.

SPEAKER_00

Gorgeous.

SPEAKER_01

Um I then uh am not much of a breakfast person, so I grab a quick like protein shake on the way to work. You know, I grab it and have it in my car on the way to work, um, come to the office. I'm luckily in downtown uh Webwick, so I um almost every morning make sure to go to my local coffee shop around the corner and say hello to my favorite baristas, and um they have my coffee ready and I swoop in and get that and then just come back to the desk. Um I run home at lunch every day to let the dog out because he's my child, come back to the office. Um my bad habit is that if I didn't get enough done during the morning, that I end up staying a little late. Um tends to happen more frequently than I would like, but it's also my fault, so there's no one to blame for that. Um and then at night, it is always a mix. Um if it is a calm night, I try to make the gym. If it's not, I very frequently will have um community obligations, whether it's Lubbock Chamber of Commerce things or Young Lawyer things or other civic things here in Lebick. Um it's a pretty active community. Um, so it kind of it kind of varies. I'm not sure I can give you just a typical day. Um my calendar should be sponsored by Crayola, it's quite colorful these days.

SPEAKER_02

All right. Garrett, I'm gonna throw this one back to you first since we're talking about routine. How has your routine evolved since you started practicing well?

SPEAKER_01

One thing that I think has changed that I'm not really sure is all that important, but it's definitely changed. I used to be a morning person and I've slowly become a night owl, much to my chagrin. I think a lot of that has to do with what I said before, that I tend to just stick around longer at the end of the day if I feel like I haven't gotten enough done. And so then that kind of delays the rest of the evening schedule and it just pushes into the the night. Um I wish I could switch that back. I've been trying, and that's it's very hard to have it to break. Um as I said, the snooze button gets hit a few times. Um I will say, as far as what's changed, I think I've gotten actually better in the last few years of having decent boundaries throughout the day. I think I used to think that healthy boundaries were like big goals. You know, I had to have a healthy boundary of reading X amount of books this year that aren't law related or X amount of non-law related activities this year, or something like kind of aspirational annual goals. And I think in the past few years I've really learned that it's more daily small things that are one more attainable, and two, I actually think more impactful. So I think maybe that's changed. I'm sure we'll talk about that some more, but that's probably what I've adjusted to lately.

SPEAKER_02

Jasmine, how has your routine changed since you started practicing?

SPEAKER_00

Okay, well, you have to keep in mind that I've been practicing law for almost 20 years now. So my answer might be a little bit longer. Um so uh fun story. When I first started practicing law, I actually started in Las Vegas. So um my husband and I were, I think the term back then was called dinks. We were double income, no kids, right?

SPEAKER_03

So um still we were dinks in Las Vegas.

SPEAKER_00

So my routine when I was first started practicing, it was like grind hard every day to get my billable hours in because I was working insurance defense. And then at night it was like, where are we going? What are we gonna do? And on the weekends, it was just, you know, I mean, we had we had a great time. So then I had kids and my routine changed dramatically. It was, you know, um, it was harder getting the billable hours in and juggling being a parent and the pickup and the drop-off and all those things. And then once we moved to Texas, I started my own uh practice. And so I had a little bit more flexibility. I was more of a part-time attorney, mom. And so I kind of had more flexibility there because I wanted to prioritize um my kids over my practice. And I leaned more on my husband at the time. But then as they got older and I started kind of growing and developing my firm here in Denton County, it was like, you know, I had to lock in. And it wasn't just practicing law, it was also running a business, being a mom and juggling all of those things. And that's where I got into the burnout of trying to do everything, trying to put on all the hats all the time. And, you know, as I got older and my practice got more established and I realized, you know, wait, I'm I'm kind of burning out here. That's when I kind of pulled back some and I really got into uh living life in balance and general wellness and not trying to do everything, you know, kind of like Garrett was saying, like I don't have to read all the books. I don't have to do all the things. You know, I got to find time for me to do the things that are gonna fill up my cup and not just drain it.

SPEAKER_02

So our next question for you, Jonathan. I'm gonna start with you because we spoke to our local bar association about kind of these things. So I think they're fairly fresh in your mind. The presentation wasn't too long ago. What core habits or routines told you stay grounded during your busy season?

SPEAKER_00

Let's see. Um I would like to say going to the gym, but I'm not doing that right now. Um actually um I enjoy practicing yoga. Um I do hot yoga, which is, you know, it's really good. It's a mental break. Uh it's got the physical part of it as well. And that's something that I just do that's just for me. So I can step away from everything and everyone and just spend that time um, you know, with me and my yoga mat in you know, sweating it out.

SPEAKER_02

Garrett, what about you?

SPEAKER_01

Well, um, I think maybe a two one, I'd love to know if if Dink is a thing, is sync a thing? Can I be like single income new kids? Like and if so, absolutely if so, can I ask Kohler for a sponsorship? Um as far as like routine, I I got some really phenomenal advice when I was going into law school actually from a mentor, and it has been age-old advice or timeless advice. I've kept it. I'm not sure I always follow it, but I do always remember it. This mentor told me um when you go into law school, you are gonna be forced to at least think that you're in competition with everybody on everything, not just in class, but in everything. How much time are you at the school? How hard are you studying? How well are you doing? All the all of those. She said, push that out of your head. And the thing that you need to do for yourself is learn to use your calendar. She said, and that sounds really simple. She said, but what I need you to do is go in your calendar, make a like personal category, right? Pick your favorite color, make it that color. She said, and schedule things that are important to you on your calendar, even the most simple things, right? And so when I was in law school, I did. I scheduled time for workouts kind of throughout the week. I scheduled one night of social time with friends just to guarantee that I got one night a week. There might have been more, but like I at least knew that I had that one night that I was gonna try to build time to spend with friends. Um, and then church on Sunday mornings. I blocked off Sunday mornings that I wasn't gonna study Sunday mornings, it was church time. And I've really tried to carry that through. Now I'm a little more, a little more organized. I don't necessarily need to block like church time. I just know I'm going Sunday morning. But it was very helpful as like a learning tool to learn how to block off time that is my time and not the firm's time. Um great advice. Or the client time, frankly, especially since we're connected all the time nowadays. Clients can find you anywhere, anytime. Um, and so it's that's been very healthy advice, and I don't always follow it, but I try. Um, and I think like there's a lot of tools now you can use to help you do that if your firm allows, of course, but like you can have the do not disturb on your phone after a certain time at night. I have that. You my phone will not ring after a certain time of night. Um, and I have no intention of calling you back after that certain time of night. Um, I even have friends that complain about that. So if I tried to call you and it didn't answer, it didn't ring, and I'm like, good.

SPEAKER_00

I was about to say, no to self, don't call Garrett in an emergency. Or no, call him, but don't expect him to pick up.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. Tomorrow morning I will be there for you. But um after, you know, whatever I don't even know what time I have it set up, but 8 p.m. or whatever it is, it's not ringing. Um I think there's a lot of technology tools you can use now that didn't exist back when I was in law school. But um blocking time is one acceptable, and two, I think healthy. Um so for me that's tends to be Sundays. I go to church, I try to feed my subpar baking skills on Sunday. Um, I do home home nesting time. You know, I play with the dog, I bake my lunch bread for the week. This week I made wax melts for my house and shower steamers. And like, you know, I do all that stuff on Sundays in my sweatpants, and you know, it's a block time for you.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, Garrett answered my next two questions. So, Jasmine, I was gonna I'm gonna ask you, but it was so helpful and what a great way to open up the next things we were going to talk about. Um Garrett touched on his calendar and technology, but Jasmine, as far as like planning out your week and you know, organizing and staying focused on the things that you want to accomplish that week, how do you plan and what tools and systems maybe do you use?

SPEAKER_00

So um just kind of piggybacking off what Garrett does, I have a personal calendar and I have it set up to where, you know, my staff is in charge of my calendar, scheduling my appointments and all the things, but my personal calendar will just on my calendar, I can see my appointments. And it'll usually be me getting my lashes done or my hair done, but they don't know that because all they see is Jasmine is busy, don't book this time. So that's something that is very important, whether it be, you know, me doing something for my kids or myself or whatever. Yes, that is definitely important. So then, you know, your staff can still utilize your calendar and put your appointments on there, but they'll schedule around what you prioritize. So I think that that's important. Um, for our firm, we use Zoom phones. And so with Zoom phones, it's I can still use my cell phone to call my clients, but it's not coming from my actual personal cell phone. It's coming from a different number. And I can text my clients and still utilize the technology, but kind of like what Garrett says, I also have a scheduled time off to where that phone does not ring. Um, on the weekends, it does, I do not get text messages. So on Monday, I answer all of the questions. I'm very um strict about my work-life balance. I do not have notifications on my phone only for like text messages or phone calls, but I turn notifications off for everything else. Um, I don't let my phone tell me when to come to it. I go to my phone. My work email is separate from my personal email. If you have a Gmail and a Microsoft Outlook, I use both of those apps. I don't have notifications on for either of those. So when I look at my phone and I see my Outlook, it doesn't show a hundred missed messages. I have that turned off. I go to my work email on my phone when I want to, not when it wants to come to me. So I don't feel that pressure or that anxiety of, oh my goodness, I have these unread notifications. So that was kind of one of the one of the things that really helped me when I was trying to declutter and de-stress and kind of retake control over my phone and my calendar and my schedule. Uh, and you know, I also I'm I'm very strict about once work is done, work is done. I leave my office, I close my computer down, and I don't come back up here. I don't, you know, respond to emails at 10 o'clock at night. I don't set that precedent. I don't allow my staff to work from home after hours either. That is that is a hard limit for me at work. I'm like, just because you can doesn't mean you should. I don't want you taking time away from your family to work on stuff for the law firm. If you can't get it done between nine and five, come back and do it tomorrow. Their emergency is not my emergency. Uh, you know, and and we do, you know, um I do practice in guardianship and probate and things like that. And sometimes there are truly emergency situations, but that's what a phone call is for. If it's a truly emergency situation, call me on my phone. I can go, you know, the the important people have my cell phone number and can reach out to me. But just a, you know, regular estate planning client, I love all my estate planning clients, but you know, I don't need to know that you want to change who your executor is on Saturday afternoon. Don't need to know that. You can email it to me and we can respond to you on Monday. That is that is perfectly fine. Um let's see, did I answer all the questions? Is there anything else? I no, I think you got it. And I think I know. I'm on a soapbox now at this point.

SPEAKER_01

No, I listen, I've been y'all can't see it, but I'm over here like a bobblehead doll. I'm like, yes, those things. Yes. Um, and I, you know, I even disagree with some attorneys I work with about some of those things because some other attorneys have have a cell phone that is active for work all the time. Some of them have a work phone and a personal phone. And I get that it's going to be different for your listeners on what firm they're at, what the firm does, and all those types of things. But if if, listener, you have any autonomy over that, I would strongly encourage you to do exactly what Jasmine said. Like, create a technology firewall between your personal technology and your work technology. Like, for example, I think it's a fabulous idea, and I do the same thing. My personal emails are not Microsoft because my work email is Microsoft. So that they're different apps, they're different things, they're different logins, they're different. Um, and that helps me keep them separate. And so, you know, like on the weekend, I try to check my personal ones, and I'm not necessarily looking at my work ones. Um, and I don't text clients um because we don't have a platform that we like. We offer looked at that, we didn't like what we had anyway. So there's been a whole background story behind that. But currently, the only thing we have to text clients would be our own cell phone. And I won't do it. And I have clients that sometimes complain about that, and I kind of give them a similar answer to what Jasmine just described, which was look, that cell phone is my cell phone. And if you want to get a hold of me, you can reach me at any point during working hours. I am at my office, I have staff, I pay to be here available for you to call or to email or to come by. Um, I also have a link that clients can book themselves with me whenever they want. Links into my calendar, they can book whenever they want. Um, and I have built-in parameters in there that can't book over lunch because I like to eat despite my size. Um, like, you know, there's certain parameters that are built into the link that give me breathing room. They can't schedule first thing in the morning, they can't schedule last thing in the day, they can't schedule over lunch, and they can't schedule within 24 hours, so I don't get any surprise appointments. Um and I love that link. I send that thing out like candy at a counter at a diner. You can schedule with me whenever you want. If you if it pops in your head at midnight on Saturday night that you need to talk to me next week, that's fine. Hop on there and schedule. I will talk to you next week. Um, but I think that you can leverage technology. I think it's really hurt us and that it's made us connect at 24-7 and we've had to take these extra steps to separate. But I think if you can take the time to set up some technology, there's also some built-in safeguards you can use like that. Um those things that I've taken the time to set up, the way that works for me, have really helped me to guide clients where they feel like they can access me, but they can't necessarily access me 24-7. And that's really helped me out.

SPEAKER_00

Right. And and from a client perspective, you know, it's like you don't want me to just answer a 15-minute question for you over the weekend when I can give you a full hour during the weekday and answer every single one of your questions and give you my full attention where I'm not at a volleyball game trying to get through answering this question. Like let me let me be in the best position to help you out and answer your questions and give you 100% of my presence so that I can take care of your need.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. And if you have, again, for your listeners, if you have anyone that pushes back, because I feel like I get the most pushback on the texting thing. And again, if we use the Zoom phone, that's a great option. If you have a platform that helps you do that, do so. If you don't, you know, I'd encourage you not to do that. And every time I've sat down and explained to a client why I don't let them do that, they've always agreed with me. I've never had someone disagree with me after I said, hey, look, you're in a legal matter, right? And I understand I do mostly transactional law, so maybe you're not getting sued. But let's just assume that your file needs to become part of a court record for whatever reason. Would you want your phone to be involved in that? Like, do you because they're gonna ask for your text messages, not just the text messages of me, they're gonna ask for your phone, client. Do you wanna hand me or a judge your whole phone? And of course they're like, oh well no. I'm like, well, great. Then how about we stick to emails, right? Or phone calls. And suddenly they're all on board. They're like, oh, that makes a ton of ton of sense. And I'm like, yeah, they don't need to see your Amazon receipts coming to your text messages or whatever. Keep that to yourself.

SPEAKER_02

Right, right. All right. So now we've kind of talked, we talked about routine and stuff, and I have one random question for you guys. Do you do an empty boom? A Sunday reset, what does that look like? So for example, in my house, my goals, it doesn't mean it happens all the time, but my goals for my Sunday reset are like get all my laundry done, tidy up my house, make sure my calendar really has the things on it that are happening this week, kind of figure out what is going on this week, not necessarily prepare for it, but have an idea so that when I wake up on Monday morning, I'm not having like the Monday morning scary where I have no idea what's going on in my life as an example. So do either of you guys do something similar to that? And what does that look like?

SPEAKER_00

Um, so for me, I actually start on Friday with work stuff. Friday, my office closes early at 2 p.m., but I've actually started capitalizing on that time of quiet time after 2 p.m. because no one is there and I can kind of get everything in order. If there's things that I need to review to send back to my paralegal, that's when I take the time to do all that. So she's front loaded on a Monday morning. So she's not asking me for stuff that she asked me the week before. So I front load her on Monday. So her inbox is full and she loves that. Um, so then that way I know on Monday morning she's gonna be busy following up with everything that I sent her. So then I can start my catch up for Monday on the weekend or from the weekend on Monday. Um, so that's one of the things that I do for work. I start on Fridays for personal time on Sundays. Um, you know, I I try to go to church on Sundays, try to get that in, um, you know, and I try to, you know, make a nice family dinner for my family on Sundays. And I have a large extended family here in Texas. So like we get together once a month and we actually just kind of we did that this past Sunday where I had 20 people over my house and all the babies running around and all the things. So, you know, that kind of fills up my cup for um for getting ready to get back into things on on Monday. Um, but yeah, I really try to keep my Sundays low-key. I I don't, I actually do my laundry on Mondays while I'm working from home. Um, but no, Sundays is really just for okay, let's let's decompress, let's watch, you know, let's Netflix and chill, let's bed rot early, you know, those types of things.

SPEAKER_01

I think my Sunday routine is about to become crashing Jasmine's family dinner sometime. That sounds great.

SPEAKER_00

Come on over, just bring a dish.

SPEAKER_01

I kind of okay, I can bake. I can't do anything else. Um so I think uh I kind of already prefaced it a little bit, but Sundays are my unplugged days. So I tend to do Saturday mornings, tend to be my I work Saturday mornings. I but I like to do that. I do it from a coffee shop, I wear comfy clothes. Uh, you know, I'm I I I'm a coffee fiend, so I have all my coffee shops around town I like to go to. So I go to one of my spots, I get breakfast, I work, I have my headphones in, and I do the same thing. I front load a bunch of stuff to my legal assistant, she's been waiting on all week. I go back and answer emails from my new associate who I have, who's phenomenal, by the way. Shout out Jason, thank God we hired her. Uh and so you know, I just try to get back to people at the firm, right? And it's it's a kind of a good clean the inbox. I feel organized, and it helps fight off the scaries a little bit for the next week. Um, and then that gives me Saturday afternoon, Saturday evening, and all day Sunday to maybe not work if I'm not covered up, you know. And so Sunday I do my my church, I do my baking habit, um I do some house things, you know, laundry and I do some other house type stuff, walk the dog. But really, my like guilty pleasure decompress is movies. I love movies. I don't have any technical like cinematography knowledge. I took film in college as my art credit. I wasn't that good. But I I love to watch me a movie because it's just kind of and I have a whole library and I pick based on my mood. I have my go-to feel-good movie that's gonna make me cry, make me realize life's gonna be fine. I have my adventure movies that I like, I have my preferred marathon binger choices. Um, so I actually have a friend in Austin that I um we're joking because he's not a movie person. So we've started a shared note on our phones, and I'm putting movies on there that I'm like, you have to watch these. Like, I don't know how you grew up here without these. Um, so my my Sunday release is to do all the house things in the day and then end the night with a couch movie and go to bed early.

SPEAKER_00

Love it. All right, we'll do that too. I'm a Garrett, I'm a movie person too, and sometimes if I'm working from home, I'll go, I'll go see a matinee by myself. I have no shame. I'll go get get some chicken tenders and a soda and sit and watch whatever. It's mostly a rom-com that nobody wants to go see with me, or like, you know, one of those things. But I I love I love a good movie too, and it's a good, nice little lunch break for me.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02

I'm gonna disappoint both of you. I don't do movies. That is like 30 more than 30 minutes of a TV show. I'm out. I want to go do something else.

SPEAKER_01

So we'll add you, we'll add you to the shared iPhone note.

SPEAKER_02

He's a big movie person, uh-huh. Ann leave me out of it. Um so we kind of talked about protecting your boundaries and those like for no with clients. What has helped both of you get comfortable saying no and protecting the fine? Garrett, I'm gonna start with you.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna say, luckily, I'm currently at a firm where that is pretty well respected. Um, right. And I know that's not the case for everybody. So I do want to be clear that all this stuff I'm saying is not coming from some high point of success. Like I've figured out the secret formula to this. I have not. Um, I mess these things up myself. Even the rules I've said today, I break sometimes, right? Um, so just know that this isn't coming from some point on high, including this segment here. Um I think it's hard to deviate from what maybe your partner above you wants or your firm expects. Certainly, certain firms, I know PI firms, for example, a lot of their trying to stay connected all the time. Um, so for me, I sadly enough, I think it's years of experience. Like the older I've gotten and the more experience I have in my practice, I feel more confident saying to a client, this is how I do it. And like, we're either gonna do it that way or we're not gonna do it at all, just because this is frankly my practice and my law license. And you know, not to sound harsh, but like if if that doesn't work with you, that's totally fine. If you want a uh, you know, you'll get clients that say, Well, I want to pay your retainer and I want you to be available for me at any point. And I'm like, that's not how I function. So if if you want that, I completely understand. I can give you referrals to attorneys that I know. Love that, but that is not my style. Um, so I think getting your firm identity is a thing, and I think it takes you years to develop that, and that's just the hard truth. I think it takes time. However, I do want to say it's acceptable, other than you maybe losing your job, it is perfectly acceptable for you to have that identity and to put those guardrails in place. So for me, those are that I you're not texting me. We're not doing that. Um and then one thing I will do if I'm not I don't get to take big vacations, I don't do that very often, but I've tried the past three years, I've tried to make myself take an actual vacation once a year. And what I've done on those trips has been phenomenal, and I'm lucky my friend lets me do it. I do what Jasmine does. I literally turn off notifications when I'm when I go. That's been a game changer. Yeah, game changer. Because I've tried to go out of the office before and I was still getting all the messages, and you feel obligated to like respond, right? So I I turned them off. Like the last few trips I've done, I've I've turned them off for those three or four days or whatever it was, and it's been phenomenal. Um, and one thing I've learned I wish I would have started as a younger attorney. Most clients are very reasonable about that. Like they know, they just need to know ahead of time. So, usually about a week before I go on any trip, if it used to be for a TYLA thing or if it was for a CLE or anything, about a week before, I add it to my signature block on my emails, and I say, I will be out of the office these days, I will not be available, or I'll be intermittently available, or whatever the situation is. And usually that helps because clients maybe freak out a little bit and they kind of front load emails to me, but then when I'm gone, they already knew. And so I've been shocked how many clients have emailed me during that time and been like, hey, we know we're you're out, we saw your message, hope you have a great trip. Like, we've been that to that place before, eat at this place or go check this place out. Um, when you get back next week, let's like touch base. Like they're 99% of the time extremely accepting of the fact that I'm not available. So I would say communicate that to your clients, and they're probably going to understand. And I think that's a good practice you can put in place no matter what your firm policy is.

SPEAKER_02

Jasmine, what about you? How have you gotten comfortable saying no and protecting your time?

SPEAKER_00

So I read this book by Lisa, I think it's Turkish, Turkish, I I can't, I don't know, but it's uh it's it's a book about boundaries. And she said essentially, hopefully I don't butcher this, but she essentially said, you cannot give someone a higher level of access to you than what they've demonstrated, the responsibility that they can handle. Meaning that if someone only respects you and your practice and your business at a level three, you cannot give them level 10 access. You have to give them the access that you can, right? So, and after I read that, for me, that was a huge game changer. And and when it comes to, for example, clients, right? I have clients that, you know, they don't respect my practice, they don't respect my um, you know, my level of knowledge. So I'm not gonna be there for you 110%. I'm gonna give you what you give me. And for my young lawyers out there, I just want to let you know that it's okay to walk away. If you are in a situation where you are high stress, high anxiety, you're having to, you know, pop pills on Sunday night and Monday morning before you go to work. You know, take a step back, right? Um there's a there's an old saying that the the um don't be afraid of the unknown freedom. There's something, something about those. It's like the known slavery, that's what it is. It's the known slavery is uh more comfortable than the unknown freedom. Okay, walk away. Be okay to walk away, be okay to start something new, right? Um and I wish that I had been told that younger in life. And I tell young lawyers uh all the time. So that's kind of one of the things that I say, and it's scary, yes, it is. It's scary to walk away, but sometimes getting over that hump and taking that leap of faith will put you in a better position than what you have been in before. So, you know, when I left my firm to start my own practice, that was terrifying. I'm like, how am I how am I gonna, you know, how am I gonna survive? What am I gonna? What if I fail? What if I don't get any clients? What if people don't like me? What if I get a bad Google review? You know, like those types of things. This, it's it's scary. But then it's like, then you actually have more control over your clients that you take. You have more control of your schedule. You may not be making as much money at as first, but eventually, you know, you'll you'll start to um you know get some traction. But I don't know. Am I far away from the question? Or what is it? Boundaries. Saying no. Okay, saying no. That's what it is, saying no. Yeah. Um, you know, and sometimes it's like um, like Garrett was saying, you'll get those clients that come in and say, I'm gonna pay you this huge retainer, but I want you to be, you know, accessible 24-7. Well, is it worth it? No, it's not for me, it's not worth it. I like to go on trips. I love to travel. I love to be on vacation. And, you know, sometimes it's a working vacation and sometimes it's not a working vacation. And, you know, for me, um, you know, I'm I'm I love different scenery. I don't like to just be stuck in one position. So I'll I don't mind, you know, being somewhere on vacation and working if I'm gonna be gone for an extended amount of time. And like Garrett says, you just let your clients know. Um, I have another colleague friend of mine, and she was like, Yeah, I leave for one month every year. And I go and I tell my clients and I set everything up. And I was like, you know what? That's not a bad idea. So I've started doing that, you know, take a month off. We usually take July off, my husband and I, and we go and we take a trip. And yes, you know, I can't not work for the entire month of July, but I still let my clients know, hey, I'm gonna be traveling, so my hours may be different, but I'm gonna answer what I can and just you know, communicate. But you have to, you have to um this is another thing that Lisa said in her book. She said boundaries are meant to be protective, not punitive. So you're not punishing someone, you're just protecting yourself.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. And I really do think it comes. I'm sorry, I'm piggybacking off, Jasper. Sorry, Matt. Something we already said, but I do want to repeat. Like communicating to your client, clients, even if it's something kind of cursory, just like my email signature, it's not unique, right? It's going out to every single person that gets my email, but it at least feels like they're in the loop. And I think that makes all the difference because we all know the number one complaint that attorneys get, at least in the state of Texas, is non-communication. It's the number one complaint because clients feel like they didn't get communicated to. I do blame a lot of that on current technology because we all think we're entitled to instant communication, so that's another side story, but um it just makes them feel included. And I think you'll be shocked, young lawyers out there, or any lawyers out there, how accepting most of your clients are if you just tell them. So, like, I don't take a month, but I have started doing that one trip a year, and then I've also started trying to do just very small little mental retreats. So, my busy season, and maybe Jasmine's either gonna validate me right now or blow my theory out of the water. My busy season is always November through February, those four months, because the last two months of the year, clients want everything closed up and on their taxes for this year, and we gotta spend the money now, we gotta get it done, blah, blah, blah. The world will end, it's Y2K every December. Or January, February, their budgets have refilled. They now have another legal budget round. They're like New Year's resolutioners. They're like, this year we're gonna do that legal thing we've wanted to do for years, and we have the money. Like, Garrett, get on it. So those four months are always the craziest. So as I was pulling out of that this year, you know, two or three weeks ago, I just told the firm, hey, look, I'm completely burned out from this year. It was the busiest year-in season I've ever had. Wasn't the worst, but it was the busiest. And I I need a minute. So I took three days, I booked a cabin at Paladura Canyon, which is like two hours north of here, close to my hometown. And I went to a little Airbnb. I took my dog, we watched movies all day, and I read I read 600 pages of a book, I turned off notifications. It was when the winter storm blew in, so I got to see the snow come into the canyon. And it was not that fancy. It was two and a half days, two hours away, but it was great. It was a great unplug, and I did like a like a Thursday, Friday, Saturday. So it was really just like a day and a half out of the office. But you know what? I told clients the week before, turned off notifications, did not respond. It was great. So many clients the next week were like, How was your trip? Like, was it great? Would you recommend the cabin you stayed in? We love Paladuro. Like, so I think if you'll just tell clients, and I told them, I said, I'm taking it as a mental reset because I the year end's my busiest, and I'm I made it through, thing up, you know. Um, and they loved it. They, you know, I just think for young attorneys, you feel like you have to put on this facade of being a perfect, powerful, Harvey Spectre at all times. And like you don't have to do that. Your clients are hiring you because you're intelligent and you're hardworking and you're capable. They're not hiring you because you're perfect. So you can tell them that you had a flat tire this morning and that's why you were late, or you spilled coffee on your jeans and that's why you're late, or you're unavailable next Friday because you're going to Powder Canyon to remind yourself that you still want to practice law, right?

SPEAKER_00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

That's okay.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And you know, for the there are some people who love the grind who will be at work from you know 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. And you know what? Good for you. Good for you, do that. You live your life, right? If that's what gets you going, you go do that. But if you're in that situation and it is draining you, get out of it. Make a pivot. It's okay. This is I'm giving you permission. It's okay. Put in your two weeks' notice, look for another job if that's what you need to do.

SPEAKER_02

I think it's so important that we all remember that we're all still humans too. We have that conversation in our office frequently. And I I'm like Garrett, I let people know about that. Hey, I'm gonna be gone next week. I'm not gonna be like fully not accessible because generally when we take trips, they're family trips and we're family long firms. We're all gone. Um, and so I do my emails and stuff, but like my responses will be slower, and a lot of times I find that Garrett, like, oh, where are you going? Like, oh, have a great time, whatever it is, it's not met with. I'll dare your butt not be at your desk, and you're not working on my page. So that is valid, and I think it's important to remember.

SPEAKER_01

We're kind of for opposing counsel also. Um, you know, I had some big transactions closing at the end of the year, and one of them had not finished yet when I took my paladura trip. And so I made a point to call my opposing counsel, who is halfway across the country, and I told him, I said, Hey, look, I'm gonna be out. My entire intention is to be completely unavailable, but I know that you and I have a very high-stakes situation going on. So if you need to reach me, you need to. It's it's a true emergency. I'm still not giving you my cell phone. Um, and I'm still not checking my email. But what you can do is if you will call my legal assistant, I have very specifically told her that if you call, she needs to call. Like, and I will. I will check my email, I will hop on, I will take care of it. Yeah, I still kept that boundary. I didn't give him my cell phone. I didn't turn my email on. I just said, there is a pathway for you to reach me if you know the village is on fire. And you know, his response was great. He said, I think that's wonderful. Have a great time. I'll check tonight and make sure I don't need anything from you in the next few days. And if I do, I'll get it to you before you leave.

SPEAKER_00

And I think sometimes like the behavior can inspire other attorneys to kind of piggyback on, like, oh, I didn't know I could do that. Like, yeah, you can. I was in a situation, I had this attorney, and he was he was older than me, and I'm, you know, I'm not young. But um I was in San Diego for the weekend. When I turned my phone back on on Monday, he had called me on the hour, like on that Saturday. It was a holiday weekend on the hour, every hour. And when he was, oh, I've been trying to reach you, and he was all, I was like, whoa, whoa. Like I need you to, I need you to take a minute and breathe before you give yourself a heart attack because I'm not gonna be responsible. Like, and I I I lectured him. I said, your client put you in this pos in this situation to make you all riled up to try to reach me. And I was on vacation. I have hard boundaries. And then he, you know, he finally calmed down and like understood, like, no, I'm not gonna answer your call on a Saturday, especially when I'm in San Diego. Come on now, come on, I got better things to do. Your emergency is not my emergency. But yeah, he he really, you know, I was like, you need to take a look at who you know, your client is is running the show, not you. And it's it's causing you to have health problems. You need to like I well, I didn't tell him that, but in my mind, I'm like, dang, like your blood pressure must be sky high right now. Like, and it's not and it's not worth it. It's not worth it. Our mental health and our physical health is not worth it.

SPEAKER_02

So on that, burnout is a hard thing. Stressful periods and time is a hard thing. I'm gonna ask you kind of like a double-sided question. One, what are your signs you're getting out? Like, I know for me, especially it's like I get really irritable over like still eating them. And my fiance will be like, Why are you so mad? And then you know it makes me more mad, right? So what are the signs you're getting burnt out? And then how do you handle those? Like, what is it you're like, hey, this is happening to me right now. Maybe Barrett, it's I need to book the weekend away. Um, but what do you guys want to do? What triggers do you see you're burnt out and how do you handle them? Jasmine, how do you go first?

SPEAKER_00

Um, I think I get more snappy at people. That's kind of my red flag, is if um, you know, I I have the word vomit and then I want to bring it right back in. And I'm like, oh, did I really say that? Um, so I think that's that's a red flag for me. Is it's like who am I snapping? Am I snapping at my staff? Am I snapping at snapping at my kids? It's usually my husband. He's usually the one that gets snapped at the most. But, you know, I think it's also important that your your uh your staff and your husband and the people closest to you kind of know your triggers so they can say, hey, you know, you're you need to um you need you need to take a minute, you know, you need to maybe walk away, you know, maybe you need to go home early. And I'll I'll see I'll see that in my staff as well. Well, I'm like, hey, did you did you drink Red Bull this afternoon? Because you're you're a little you're being a little extra. Yeah, you maybe maybe instead of drinking the Red Bull, maybe you just clock out and take a nap for about 15 minutes. Or maybe go on TikTok for a half an hour, whatever you need to do to decompress. But I think um I think it's important that you it's not it's not a it's not a single person job, I don't think, when it comes to this. I think you have to surround yourself with people that know your know your triggers and can help you identify it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, mine's the same. I definitely get irritable like in the office. I maybe I'm under the delusion that I'm like a happy-go-lucky guy. Um I feel like I am when it's when I'm not stressed, like when when you know my practice is manageable. I feel like I am like very social. Like I, you know, I want to talk to everybody and check on everybody and I want to bring muffins for the office, and I want to go check on my other people in downtown. That you know, Lebk's a large city but small place. And so like, you know, I'll run into people and say hi and be friendly. And you can definitely tell when I'm not when I'm not like that, when I'm busy. Um I am short, quick to the point, walking by, not stopping to say hello to you. It's a drive-by wave. And then in the office, I will get a little testy. Um, and so I can definitely tell when that's happening. Um, and just like as an example, I knew it was bad this year because we have a nice gentleman that helps like clean our office and does some security stuff for us, who's amazing. And he came in, I guess after the new year, I'd kind of got past the year and stuff, and he said, Young man, are you doing okay? I said, Yeah, I'm fine. You know, John. And he said, uh, he said, Well, last time I saw you, you were a little mm. So I was just checking on you. You know, you seemed like you were a little mm. And I was like, okay, so um, and even like we were, I don't know, one of the staff was giving our new runners. We hired some undergrads at tech to do some runner office things for us every semester. And they were introducing them at the beginning of a semester, so January. And um, I don't remember who it was. I just heard him down the hall. They're like, Oh, Matt's Garrett down there, he's a partner, he's usually really nice, but I wouldn't talk to him today. You know, they're like, you know, it's it's a rough day. Um, so I I I hate to admit that, but my mood does swing with my stress level, and I hate that, but it's true. Um, as far as what do I do about it, you know, I'll try to be quick because I know we're running out of time, but I think it's important to share. TLAP is not like a a joke or a pass-off, it is a real resource. It really is. Um, and I have a whole story on my interaction with TLAP, but the extremely abridged click notes version is that I did get turned into T Lap in my first or second year of practice. I was working at a large firm here, I still love them, but I had a very rough transition to practice because I was like basically living in my office. I was there all the time, all the weekends, working all the time, felt like I was messing up, didn't know you know, perfectionism was hitting hard, feeling the need to be connected to the clients 24-7 was hard. I felt like I had to like earn my way up to work at this firm. Um and I was not doing well. I mean, I like lost 20 pounds. Again, I don't know if y'all can see me. I there wasn't 20 pounds to go, right? Like the West Texas wind was already whipping me around before that, and then 20 pounds lighter, and I was having to carry sandbags to walk across parking lots. I mean, it was like you know, and so my friends did actually call T Lap and they were like, Look, he he's anxiety riddle, help him. Um, and I was furious, furious with my friends, absolutely furious. But I'll tell you that it was the best thing that has happened because I basically told T Lap to go away that I was offended that they would even bother me, go away. Um, I was so embarrassed and so ticked. But then a few days later, I literally called, I think it texted them even. I don't even think I called them and I said, actually, you know what? Could you give me a recommendation for a counselor? And they sent me a list. They said, Here's counselors in Lebek that we would have worked with. I researched him, I picked one. That was years ago. I still have that counselor. It was amazing. Um, he's a he's great. I love him, shout out. Um so if you if you have you're listening to this, and you're like, I need to do something, but I I can't bake, or I definitely can't host this big family get together like Jasmine. I'm not a rock star mom or sports agent or whatever. Um start there. You don't have to sign up for T Lap and start going to meetings at night, right? You can just ask them for a resource, right? Um send me an article on anxiety, send me a list of counselors in my area. That simple. And it's no questions asked, they send it to you. Start there. My counselor is worth every penny. Um, check with your firm, check with your health insurance, whatever, see if you can get that covered. Having a mental health professional in your corner, I don't care how mentally healthy or how mentally unhealthy you might be at the moment, anywhere on that spectrum. I think every single lawyer should have a counselor.

SPEAKER_00

Agree.

SPEAKER_01

They're amazing. Um, and and I would highly encourage every young lawyer to seek one out.

SPEAKER_00

I agree.

SPEAKER_02

I'm gonna ask you a final question for us to end.

SPEAKER_00

Wait, wait, wait, wait. I want to say I want to say something real quick, real quick. I know we don't have a lot of time, but Garrett, thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing that. That's amazing. Um, because I tell people therapy is like breath minutes. If somebody offers you one or suggests you might need it, it's probably because you don't you do. Mental health is just as important as your physical health. Okay. Everyone needs to take the time and check yourself. Okay, thank you. That's all I want to say. Thank you, Madison.

SPEAKER_02

I I forgot that amazing quote that you shared as far as the edition. So I should have just known that that one was coming. Our final question, I'm gonna get to Jasmine first because Garrett, I think you might have probably used your answer on the last question. So I'm gonna let you come up with another answer. What advice would you give to lawyers who are feeling the burnout or overwhelmed?

SPEAKER_00

Um, so the first thing I would suggest is step away, right? Um, Bernie Brown uses this great example. She's like, you know, as a waitress, you say, I'm in the weeds or um I'm drowning or something like that. If I'm in the weeds, that means you can come over and help me and maybe take some dish. If I say I'm drowning, that means I need to drop everything and walk away. So you have to first identify do you just need maybe a little bit of extra help, or do you just need to remove yourself from the situation so you can clear your head and think? Um, one of the things that I really love doing is I call them um my walking unplugged, where I will leave my phone, leave my headphones, I won't have any input going in. I'll go out and I'll do a nature walk and just be out. And then that helps me really kind of clear my head and get my thoughts out. We don't always have to have headphones in. We don't always have to have a YouTube going on, um, you know, or a podcast as much as I love this podcast and I'm happy to be on it. But sometimes you need to just stop the input so that you can get everything out and then you can really kind of focus on prioritizing.

SPEAKER_01

I would agree with that. Um, I think getting a third-party perspective from somebody is very helpful. And I think lawyers, we have a hard time with that because we feel like non-lawyers don't understand. And maybe that's judgmental of us, but I certainly am guilty of that. Like I'm like, I can't complain about this to my family. They don't know what it's like. That may not be true at all. But or I think I'm gonna bore them, right? I'm gonna bore them to death, griping about this thing. They don't know what a probate case is, they don't care. Um, and so I can't ask them, yeah. I can't tell them I'm totally stressed out because I've got all these hearings stacked up and I'm not ready or whatever. Um, but I think finding someone, maybe a law school friend, a colleague, a partner you trust, if you don't have any of those, again, seek out a counselor from TLAP because they tend to see other lawyers, they speak the lingo, um, which is why I think the that list from TLAP is important because those counselors tend to have other lawyer clients, and so they kind of have acclimated to our crazy world. Um, so when you throw out words like discovery, they know what that is. Um, they don't think it's a tr a Star Trek ship, like they know they know that it's a thing. Um but getting a third-party perspective that understands the legal world is extremely helpful because you end up in like a mental silo that you're like the world's burning down, this is what's happening, and then I'll have some partner look at it, whatever the situation is, or someone else in my firm, and they're like this is not that big a deal. Or I had this happen to me in '86. Here's what I did. You know, like it's and suddenly like the the clouds had parted, right? And so I think pulling yourself out is wonderful, and then getting a perspective from someone else's vantage point.

SPEAKER_02

Well, thank you all for joining us on this episode of Barb Ray, posted by the Techfield Family Lawyers and So is the H Ben. We're so grateful for all of your insights.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you for having us.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thanks for having us. It's wonderful to see friendly faces and and meet Jasmine and Watson.

SPEAKER_00

So yeah, Garrett, it was such a pleasure to meet you.