Bar Break: Wellness for Lawyers

Bar Break: Wellness for Lawyers | Lawyer-Dads, Unfiltered

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As a companion to our earlier Moms Tell All episode, this conversation turns the spotlight to fatherhood in the legal profession.

In this special episode, Sushant Mohan and Dave Hagan open up about what it really looks like to raise kids while practicing law in a world that rarely slows down. From early‑morning hearings to early‑morning school drop‑off, the power of having a village, and the importance of teaching kindness, they share the challenges, the joy, the guilt, the growth, and the moments that make it all worth it. They also talk candidly about how they care for their own mental health — the routines, boundaries, and small acts of self‑care that help them show up as steady attorneys and present, grounded fathers.

🎧 Tune in for candor, humor, and the kind of perspective only lawyer dads can offer. Listen here, or any podcast platform: https://tyla.org/resource/bar-break/

#tyla #barbreak #lawyerdads #dadlife #attorneyparents #workingparents #wellnessinlaw #legalwellness #younglawyers

SPEAKER_02

You're listening to Barbreak, a Texas Young Lawyers Association podcast dedicated to supporting attorney wellness through honest, relatable conversations.

SPEAKER_00

Join us as we explore real stories of setbacks, burnout, and growth, and share practical tools to navigate work-life balance and protect your mental health. This is Barbreak, where taking a pause helps you thrive.

SPEAKER_02

Joining us today are our guests who will speak on this important topic. Would you guys like to introduce yourselves? Sure. Dave, you want to go first?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So uh my name's Dave Hagan. Uh I am uh a solo practitioner in Longview, Texas. I do mostly criminal defense up here uh with a little bit of personal injury. Uh I've got a wife and a two-year-old and a three-month-old. Uh, we just had a baby in September and uh got uh four dogs and or two dogs and four cats as well. Five cats.

SPEAKER_01

And uh I'm Sushan Mohan. I'm a litigation partner at Baker Hostettler. Uh importantly for this podcast, I am a father to a six-year-old boy. Um, no cats or dogs, because candidly, even though he's been asking for some and and those requests have gotten more and more, uh he's he's already a handful. So um I'm just navigating the world of law, uh, the world of fatherhood, um, the world of single dad. I know there might be some listeners who are also in that single parenting world. Um, but I'm happy to be here and um give some nuggets here and there, but mostly to make fun of Dave. You know, Dave does need a little bit of humility in his life. Someone's got to bring him down because he's he's flying too close to the sun sometimes, I feel.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, with that level of competence, how can you not be super prideful about what you do? Um you know, it's it's cute that you guys think you can puncture my ego. So I joined Dave uh with uh, you know, I I had a son two years ago, but I also have five dogs and a cat. So we we love animals in our family. Uh they're not really allowed around my son very often just because dogs are sort of unpredictable, uh especially when you have a practically a wolf pack of them. And uh, but he does love our cat and he carries our cat around all the time, and our poor cat is like, please stop.

SPEAKER_01

It's traumatized all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Honestly, I think that could be a podcast all in itself, is just how little boys, uh two-year-old boys tackle the cats. Did you declaw the cat? Like, I'm curious. No, no, we've just got, I mean, our the the cats that are sort of like um I don't want to say more aggressive because they're all they're just cats, right? They're they're not that big of a deal. But uh the the ones that are sort of got that are more willing to use their claws, he stays away from those and and just kind of like loves on the the the ones that'll just lay there and take it.

SPEAKER_01

So I think that's Jimmy. I don't know, but this is that I feel this is like the lesson, right? Because I think part of being a dad, boys or girls, is just like you gotta let them learn learn themselves too. I think it's uh you can tell them like, hey, don't go over there and that's dangerous, but until they get you know scratched or clawed, um, some of those lessons don't really fit in and don't really sink in. So I grew up with nine cats while we're talking, so I I'm no stranger to cats. Um, so I love animals too, but uh I'm now allergic to most animals. Uh you know, yeah, more or less.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, that's fair. That's fair. I uh my wife is allergic to cats, so she's not a big fan. She loves the cat, but can't really pet it without coughing. Um, you know, it's something she has to pay attention to. Speaking of attention, how does being a lawyer and a father create competing demands for your time and attention at the home?

SPEAKER_03

What a segue.

SPEAKER_02

What a segue. That's me. What a segue.

SPEAKER_01

Take a pause. That was really good.

SPEAKER_03

I forgot the question the segue was so good.

SPEAKER_01

You know, I'll I'll take it. I think it was uh, you know, how does uh how does how does being a father or being a dad take attention away from work? The segue being attention. Um you know, I think in some ways, well, for sure, Jimmy, if I'm understanding your question right, does it take how does your job take attention away from being a dad, or how does being a dad take attention away from the job?

SPEAKER_02

How how are those demands kind of in conflict with each other?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I think, I mean, candidly, uh there is an inherent conflict because you would love to just stay at home and be a dad full-time. Um, for those of us who are parents, I think we can all agree it's a great, it's a great gig. It's a it's a time-consuming endeavor. Um, but also I think in some ways the it's important to not lose our identities in in just one role. And to also show a good example of um working towards something and and remembering that we had a life before we became parents. We studied, we went to college, we went to law school, you know, we we had demands and that we set for ourselves and expectations. And it's I think good to follow up on those. So um, on one hand, it's you know, your job does take away time from perhaps being a parent, but on the other hand, I think that's you know, for kids, I'm a firm believer in they learn the most by observing. Um, we can tell them things, but if they're not observing what we're telling them, it's not gonna sink in, and they're just gonna think of us as hypocrites. So showing the example of hard work, showing the example of um dedication, especially in our profession, showing the example of giving back pro bono, volunteerism, um, that to me is fatherhood, even though I may not be present with my son. He knows that daddy's working hard. Um, so when I travel up and it's for work, I let him know I'm traveling for work, and this is why I'm doing it. So, on some ways, I think those two can can be incompatico. Um and I feel like I can keep talking, but Dave, I want to turn it over to you.

SPEAKER_03

Sure. I I'm I mean, my answer, I feel like it's not that dissimilar from yours. Um, you know, I I feel like it's look, the easy thing to do is to you can say, look, I'm a father first, everything, you know, that's gonna be the number one priority. And in some respects, that is that's true. Um, but it's also it's more nuanced than that. If we're being at all honest with ourselves, uh, you know, there are gonna be there are gonna be times where you have something at work, uh, you have to do something for a client, you have to be at a hearing, you have to pick a jury, and it's gonna create a conflict. And, you know, in in my practice, because I'm very lucky, I have a lot of uh support from the local um uh bar. I've got a lot of friends in the bar that uh people are I can I can get people to step up and cover for me if something comes up. Uh and and a large part of that is because I'm always willing to step up and cover for somebody else. Um but you know, I'm I'm lucky that most of the time when a conflict does arise, I get to prioritize my family and my kids over anything that might come up at work. But at the same time, you know, there are gonna be times where I can't, where it has to be me that takes care of this particular issue. And uh, you know, I'm gonna have to do that. So I I think it's a balance, just like everything else, um, there's there's gonna be times where one is, you know, the the family life is is gonna predominantly take precedence and you're gonna want to focus your your attention on that. There are gonna be times where you're just not able to, where you just have to take care of business. Um you know, and that's part of for me, practicing law is a great way to provide for my family, but it's also a calling, right? It's it's a vocation and an avocation. It's something that um I I take seriously, that I enjoy doing, that I think is important for our community and for our society. And I do think I agree with Sushan. I think it's important that our our kids see that uh you know you don't have to do a job just because um it makes money. You can you can do a job because uh it's important, um, you feel like it provides value, uh, and uh that it's fulfilling. So I think it's it's important to also be able to provide that kind of example. My kids too, so he's not, you know, really cognizant of any of that. Uh my son is, um, daughter's even younger, but uh never too early to start thinking about that kind of thing, I think.

SPEAKER_02

You know, Dave, those are really good points. I I think a lot about how partners would say the law is a jealous mistress, but it's not just the practice of law that you're facing up against. You're pr you're facing up against all of the external expectations outside of the office. You you're expected to sit on boards, you're expected to serve a community of people, and that often requires additional time outside of the office to go help those other people. And so I want to go sit and hang out with my son and spend time with him at night. I may have to go out and service an emergency for a nonprofit that I'm on the board of. Um, those things create all of these tensions and expectations, and they are time drained sometimes. Um, you know, personally, my son, when I wake up every morning, I go and hug him and spend time with him, and I'm very intentional in the mornings. But I do know when I get ready and I start getting dressed, James starts saying, Hey, hold you, hold you, because he knows if I'm holding him, I can't get dressed and leave for work. And so, I mean, there there are those you feel like yeah, those are also, you know, it's I have to wrangle my son out of bed.

SPEAKER_01

I don't know. Jimmy, you said your son is two. Yeah. Yeah. Just wait, guys, till till they're old enough to like fight back when you're waking them up at 6 a.m. Yeah. So I have to literally like drag my kid out. I do hold him for like a little bit, but he's still asleep when I'm like holding him like a little baby. Um But I I I do think those times where if I'm traveling for work, or you know, I I think there was one instance where I had a suitcase and I was gonna drop him to school and go straight to the airport afterwards to work or to travel for work. And he he looked at my suitcase and he's like, again? And uh and I remember I was like, Yeah, daddy's gotta go, you know, wherever I was going. And uh and he was like, Well, when are you gonna be back? And and you know, it's those times where you know it a little part of you just be like, Oh, yeah, he's seeing me leave off um for work. But that's I think you know, where I explained to him why daddy's going where he's going. And you know, we're a client-driven profession. Um, and you know, we took an oath to serve our clients also that I think kind of makes our profession unique in that you know there is a higher calling, and we all raised our hand on, you know, and and voluntarily took an oath. So I think with that, you know, it's uh I I tell him about that, and um, you know, I I told him about the promise I made, not an oath, because I think that he's he's probably too young for that. But um the other thing I wanted to to go back on that Dave had said, I think is uh is you know, needing support. And I know Dave said he's got friends at the bar, um, and I know he's got friends in the practice of law as well. So just uh that was a little joke, but never mind. Okay, maybe we'll edit that out. But friends at the bar? Uh uh okay. Um not for over six years, I haven't. Okay, that's true. Um, but yeah, I I think you know, I see a lot of young associates. Um, and I think this is kind of, you know, and and I would, if I may, uh, you know, I so I grew up in India, and I still have this Indian cultural background, and the culture of India and a lot of Asia is much more communal, and whereas the United States is much more individualistic, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and all that stuff. Um, sometimes I feel that people take on more than they need to here in the US and and forget that, hey, there is a community that you may have invested time and effort into building, not to get something out of it, but because you know you did, and because it's whether it's family or friends, and those friends and family would be happy to help you just like you would be happy to help them. So if you do need to lean on others, I always encourage people to do so because I think it's always nice to let others know that, hey, I'm vulnerable here or I need someone and I need some help because it humanizes you, and I think that then grows that brought bond stronger. So, you know, I see that a lot of times with my firm where I think people want to be that parent of the year, the super mom, super dad. And it's great to do that, but you know, you don't need to kill yourself sometimes. Uh, you know, I have my parents in town. There's no way I can do this job without my parents helping out. Uh, you know, my ex-wife's parents also live in town. There's no way she could do her job. And her job, she's a surgeon, so she's also working just as hard, and there's no way she could do her job. So I think, you know, leaning into the support that you have, especially in this profession, is very important, very critical. And and and I think it'll strengthen not just your relations, but it'll also give you a little breathing space as you navigate parenthood. It's really good advice.

SPEAKER_02

Um, you know, it it and that is part of the role of being a lawyer. You need to be plugged into a community. You're you're there to help, you're there, and you're also there to be helped. Um, there's there's a partner in my office that consistently says, you know, you you need to decompartmentalize your life. And I didn't understand what he meant until I started doing it. And I was like, wow, actually this works. Maybe this guy's not an idiot and massive practice. Yeah. And so, you know, once you start decompartmentalizing and start utilizing a community, you begin to see that, you know, it's not all on me, it's not all on my spouse. Um, and and that's really a lot of weight to give to your child. Um, you know, this job is really, really full of pressure a lot of times, especially as a litigator. I I have no experience as a transactional associate. I can't opine to you know what it's like to be a transactional attorney, but you have deadlines constantly pressing up against you. And with courts going to scheduling orders, um, and and I know Dave probably experiences this in the criminal world. I mean, you're constantly under the pressure of am I going to trial or am I not? Um, and so when you're when you guys are up against that pressure, do you have any strategies that help you decompress before you walk through the door?

SPEAKER_03

So the the main thing I I think I do is is really just part of my larger approach to maintaining you know mental health um in my practice. Uh so uh as a bit of background, I um my first three years of practice, I worked in a DA's office uh here in Longview. And um in the the tail end of my tenure there, I was just running myself ragged. All I was doing was working, and um uh I I I was burning out, didn't know I was burning out, and uh was uh really uh big having a big problem with my uh alcohol usage. And it culminated in me uh getting a DWI and having to re you know leave the DA's office and start my life uh essentially my practice all over again as a solo uh uh as a private practitioner. Uh quit drinking. And uh ever since then mental health, my mental health has been the number one priority when I approach uh my work. Uh I don't take on too much that's going to lead me to being burnt out again. Uh I worked for a personal injury firm for a while. I loved that firm. I loved the the people there. My my boss was great. The guys that I worked with were great. Um, but the job itself was killing me. And it was making me, you know, I was approaching burnout. And I I still wasn't drinking, but uh I could I could uh feel that I was burning out. And so I recognized that in myself and you know, made the decision, I gotta get, I gotta pull out, I gotta get out of this. I gotta prioritize my mental health and my mental well-being. Now that I have kids, I feel like that's even more important because not only do I need to make sure that I'm all there for me, I need to make sure that I'm not burning out and causing a problem for my kids and my wife. Um and the way that I do that is number one, uh, open communication with uh my support structure, which is mostly my family. Right. Making sure that we're talking about uh when I'm stressed out, when I've got a lot on my plate, and uh making sure that I'm and recognizing that and making allowances for it. Number two is uh you know, I I'm not gonna say I don't bring my work home with me because in this job I feel like I think about it all the time, right? I'm thinking about it in the shower, I'm thinking about it when I go to bed, I'm thinking about it when I play video games. Uh, you know, it just you just can't help it. You you just it it just comes into mind, well, well, man, how am I gonna pick this jury coming up in a couple of weeks? You know, what how am I gonna make sure the state doesn't get this piece of evidence in that could really damn my guy? Uh you know, I I I can't say that I keep that from you know coming home, but uh I don't talk about my cases uh to my wife because she's uh expressed, you know, due to trauma that she's lived through, that she doesn't want to hear, you know, particular details um about my my line of work. But I've got great uh support through like my parents who are both uh in the legal profession and can talk to them about cases. I've got friends that are in the legal profession that I can talk to them about cases and kind of take that mental load off my off of me a little bit. Um and then as far as just general stress management, I make sure that I carve out time for myself to, you know, play video games, to uh I I uh collect and build and paint little miniatures, uh little models. Um you know, I I do I find things that I enjoy. I I like to I like to take my son to the hike and bike trail and go for walks. Um I like to I I make sure that I carve out some time uh for myself that I can do things that I enjoy that help take that stress off of me. So uh I think number one is communication. Number two is uh having an outlet, but not making that outlet be, you know, people that aren't receptive to it uh as far as talking about your cases. And then number three uh is making sure that you have some um some you time, right? Some some time to do things that just uh that you just enjoy doing um for no other reason than you enjoy doing it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And Stu Sean, you shared some strategies about when you're leaving, how you kind of manage that demand on your time. But how do you demand the load and make sure that you don't carry it into the door when you go speak speak and spend time with your kiddo?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I think um, you know, there's a quote that, you know, when we talk about stress and you know, bringing that stress home or carrying it with you. I mean, that's stress is gonna be part of the profession always. Um there's a quote that I read which kind of resonate which resonated with me, and it said, you know, stress is not doing something that you don't enjoy. It's not doing what you enjoy enough. And you know, it it because there's gonna be parts of our job that we're just not gonna enjoy. You know, I'm a litigator, I will forever, forever, ever rue discovery and discovery fights. And you know, I'm not an adversarial person. I know we're litigators, everyone likes to think that we just like to fight. We really don't, right? Like I for me, I like the critical thinking, I like the strategy. I I think of it like chess, you know, like people are playing chess, they're not actively yelling at each other, it's just like mental game. Um so I'll never enjoy that part, but I do know there are things that I enjoy. So, for example, I love to work out, um, I love to cycle, go biking, I love to run, I love to play sports, team sports, especially. Uh and I will, you know. I think what Dave was saying is absolutely right. You have to carve out time for yourself for those activities. And if you can blend, you know, time with your son or time with your kid and an activity, that's great. Because what better way to show up as a parent than introduce your kiddo to some of the things that you find enjoyable? Um, so for example, when you know Keen with my son, whose name's Keen, when he was growing up, I had a little booster seat uh that I would attach to the front of the bike, and he would sit on the bike with me and we'd go biking together. As he got older, he got a whack a wagon and he would be in the back on the wagon. And now we're learning how to ride bikes. And you know, one of these days I'm gonna take off those training wheels and he's gonna throw a fit, but we'll deal with that. Um, you know, I so I enjoy that. I also enjoy um, you know, going out to a park. So you will most of the time, honestly, you will find us at a park. Um, that's what I love about being a dad. Um, it honestly has given me a second chance at my childhood. I say that to friends, because you now have an excuse to act childish in public, and no one bats an eye because you can be running around on a playground, trying to fit in spaces you don't fit because you're chasing your kid. And so those are the things that I enjoy, and I think you have to bring that side and just get lost in their world. And I think that's one way of releasing that stress. Um, and the other one is just you know, whatever, you know, sleep is always important. I've taken up journaling as I get older, and I've really enjoyed that practice as well. Just getting your thoughts down on paper. So you have to know yourself and find and you'll constantly be tweaking as you get older, you're gonna find new things. Um, and then also, of course, it would be remiss of saying, do the things that your kiddo enjoys, right? Like my son is probably not right now, he's not so athletic, which is totally fine. It was always my worst nightmare before I was a parent. Like, what if my kid's not athletic? What are we gonna connect about? Uh, my kid's big into art, and uh, I actually really enjoy just drawing with him. Um, we have more crayons and watercolors than I can even count. There's glitter on my carpet, and uh I've just embraced that this is like a kid's house. Um, so so I think those are the important things to do, you know. You'll never be able to, you know, take the stress and just put it down, but I think you can certainly do activities that will minimize its presence.

SPEAKER_02

You know, I I agree with you. I I think it's really good to get just dive into what your kid's into. And I've found even when it's like playing with blocks and putting blocks together, if I can immerse myself in that, I tend to just kind of forget for a little while, oh, when is this response due? When is this due? Um, how am I going to strategize here? What case is next up on the shopping block? Because I feel like I've already solved that strategy in my head. It's really nice to kind of be able to create that separation when you are interacting with them. You know, when I come home, I sit in the driveway for five minutes and I just focus on my breathing. I'll close my eyes, sit down, and I create a five-minute block. It is a non-negotiable. Love it. Um, I don't, yeah, I don't take phone calls. And as soon as I get home, my phone goes on personal mode. So I don't check emails again until uh eight, eight, eight p.m. Um, and so from that time that I get to the driveway, and after those five minutes, I am there and trying to be present the entire time. Now, there are times where it bleeds in. Um, you know, your brain will still be trying to solve a problem, even though you're sitting there with your kid playing blocks. And yeah, but I found that that strategy of creating that separation just tells my brain and my nervous system, hey, it's time, it's time to take a break. Like this, how long have you been doing this breathing thing? This is awesome. I mean, this is really great, Jimmy. So I was uh I was a Buddhist monk uh in 2016 uh in the mountains of Himis Springs, New Mexico. And so I took a lot of those practices and kind of implemented it, implemented them into my life. I do the same thing when I wake up, except I do it for a little bit longer. Yeah, and I just I give my brain 15 minutes in the morning. You get to do whatever you want for 15 minutes. You want to think about, you know, who who's married to who on the celebrity cover of some magazine, go for it. But when those 15 minutes are done, we're on, we're going, we're present, and we're doing the things that we do now. Yeah. And you know, that strategy has been incredibly helpful for my mental health because it it takes out the rumination. You know, we had a we uh we had a saying that resistance makes stronger. And so when you resist thoughts about things and and solving problems, it makes them stronger. But if you just kind of provide a space for them to run through, it's kind of like damming up a river, right?

SPEAKER_01

You and you are you are you are so wise. I don't even know how old you are, Jimmy, but I have a feeling I'm older than you. But you are I'm just now discovering a lot of these things in the last like year because of things that have you know been going on in my personal life. But this whole the the uh resistance makes stronger, I that is that's the one thing I am really learning, and it's you know, emotions and feeling feeling whatever it is you're feeling rather than fighting it. Um, and I know I don't know how many of us um I know I'm seeing people on a screen right now and our listeners won't be able to, but there's several of us on the screen. I'm I'm just wondering how many of us were raised with parents who kind of taught us the opposite, um, which is just plow forward, put that thought to the side. You are stronger than the thought, just put it to the side and keep moving forward. And as I get older, I'm you know, they did the I'm not blaming my parents. I mean, they did they're amazing, phenomenal people. They did the best they could, they did what they were taught. But now I'm like, you know what, it's time for me to figure out my own way through this emotional journey. And um, and yeah, just sitting with my thoughts, sitting with my feelings. You know, there is you have to run things on loop a little bit, but you know in your heart of hearts at what point that loop has run its course, and at what point there's no point in letting it run. So um that's been yeah, and the meditation, I've been doing that for the last I'm I'm novice. I'm just I've been meditating every day for the last four months, and I do 10 minutes usually after my workout, and it's uh it's honest, it's made such a big difference um in my personal life and I think my my professional life.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it gives your brain the ability to compartmentalize and store things where they need to be stored. Um, and you know, speaking on like uh emotions and resistance makes stronger, you know, I took a lot of the concepts from a book called uh, and I'm not sponsored by them at all, you know, for anybody listening. Um, but there's a book called Tiny Humans Big Emotions, and it explains like attachment with children and how children process emotions. And as I've been reading this book, I'm like, wow, I'm learning a lot about myself. And like, oh man, that's probably a pretty toxic trait I have. We gotta figure out how to work around that.

SPEAKER_01

Um it is uh yeah, I was gonna ask. I mean, this as a parent now, I mean, you applied these teachings to yourself, but now from a lens of a of a parent, it's also like wow, there is there are so many ways, you know. You're I think you're never gonna mess it. Well, let me say, we will absolutely mess parenthood up in some ways. Our kids will look back and say, hey dad, hey mom, uh, you you didn't do this or you didn't do that. Um there's a it's like a comedian, I think he says, you know, and um you can bleep this out, but he says, you know, when you're raising your kids, don't fuck up the same way your parents did. So that when your kids are older, they can still blame you, but at least they can't blame you for being unoriginal. And and you know, so um, yeah, I was just curious, yeah. I mean, how do you how do you, you know, with tantrums, right? You're you've got a two-year-old. The tantrums, I don't know if they're here yet, they will be. Big feelings. How do you how do you handle how do you yeah, how do you I just want to give give me some advice on how do you deal with those feelings and and what do you tell your your kiddo or not tell your kiddo in those moments when weak feelings have taken over?

SPEAKER_02

Well, we we talk through them and validate them. You know, when James is mad that I won't let him play with a soccer ball and it's time to eat, we just we reason with him. He doesn't understand reasoning yet, but it's not never too early to start with them, and we say, Yeah, we understand that you're upset. It's okay to be upset, those are valid emotions. You are busy doing something, and now we're interrupting that. Um and and we're gonna eat, and it's time to eat. But after we're done eating, we can go back to play. Um, and we can play with the ball after we eat. And what that's done is if it now James is like, uh, those we've learned also to give him a little bit of transition time too. We'll be like, one more time, you can kick the ball on the goal one more time, and after you kick the ball on the goal one more time, we're gonna go eat. And so that kind of starts to build little patterns in their brains so that he can transition emotionally into hey, I'm in playtime with dad and mom, into okay, it's time to eat, and I probably am hungry. Um, and then okay, but even if I'm stopping now, that doesn't mean I can't come back to it later. And with tantrums, it's uh I mean it they last a lot less longer when we do that. Um, I I did, you know, I made the fatal mistake one time of being like, dude, it's not like it's not that big of a deal. And the tantrum lasted a lot longer than it would have. And I'm like, ah, okay.

SPEAKER_01

Let me show you how big a deal it is, Dad.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, he's like, Yeah, I'll show you. And you know, I was like, you know what? You kind of did, because now I feel crummy too, dude. Like, yeah. Um and it's so interesting how they're you know, I I don't know if anybody's written on this, but I feel like their nervous systems are tied into ours. Um, when they experience pain, we experience pain.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh, and vice versa. When when when we experience stress, I mean they can pick up kids. I mean, babies, they they have done studies like babies pick up on stress. I mean, especially from a young age, you know, the mom's stress. And I'm not saying, hey, so don't be stressed, but I think it's just be okay. You know, I think as parents, I also try to bring my authentic self. Like I I will not sometimes it is tough, you know. And speaking as um just as a single parent, sometimes it is tough because you might feel down. Um, there are things, you know, like I'm still navigating this road of single parenthood, and um, you know, new things are there are always new things that you don't plan for. Um, whether it's a random question from a six-year-old, you know, he was three and a half when um his mom and I uh separated. So he doesn't really remember that, but now that he's getting older, he certainly sees, you know, at his friends, like he goes to a friend's house or something, the parents together in the same house. And you know, my ex-wife and I have a great relationship. We're very you know, we we co-parent and um you know, we we joke with each other about our kid and and and all that stuff. But you know, the other day, for example, he he just said, you know, like um, I'm sad. And I was like, what's going on? He's like, well, I'm sad that you don't come to mommy's house anymore. And uh, you know, it just kind of like took me by surprise. And I knew those questions would be would be coming. And you know, at that point, I could either be like, no, no, it's okay, that's you know, there are so many other things to be happy about, but I was just like, you know what, no, it is sad. Like, I I totally understand. You you want to see your daddy at home, and you know, I just want to let you know that that's okay to feel sad. And then, you know, you can't then you you you go back to, you know, I I you know talk to a lot of child psychologists and therapists when we were gonna go through this, to, you know, from their perspective, their fear is abandonment, right? Like, is mommy gonna leave? Is daddy gonna leave? And then you just kind of reframe it like you're okay feeling however you're feeling, and just just know that while you're feeling that, neither one of us is going anywhere. Like, I'm always your dad, she's always your mom, we're always gonna be a team for you. So, um, and that's you know, I I look at my parents, and I'm not sure if that's how they would have handled it, you know, and I and I talk to them about because they they play a big part in um helping me uh you know with with school pickups and things of that sort, because my son's school gets done at 2 30. Um I do not get done at 2 30. Yeah. So so my mom picks him up, and you know, so I think, yeah, the the whole you know emotion aspect, and you know, I know some people call it gentle parenting or whatever, and and you know, I I do think there is something to be said about validating emotions, but of course I think you know, as as the kids get older, you have to also be, you know, just like we have to be firm with our boundaries, we've got to be firm with our boundaries to the kids, right? Like, um, there's there's there's things now where you know there's in elementary school, like bullying and things of that sort already start happening, and you've got to make sure that you hold the line and say, well, this is not okay. You know, that was not kind, or that hurts someone's feelings, etc. etc.

SPEAKER_02

Um, so yeah, yeah, we we teach that at home too. Uh, you know, the boundaries saying you you start kind of, you know, like we were saying, I was saying the example I provided earlier, we're gonna we're gonna kick the ball one more time, and then we're gonna and that may work that may result in a tantrum. Yeah, but you you handle the situation, the tantrum resolves once you talked through them a little bit about it and get them on to the next task. Yeah, and those boundaries are so important because what you're doing and what we're doing is giving them the guidelines, the rails to society and how they should interact with society and what appropriate behavior is when you're interacting with other humans. Um, you know, and that's that's really hard, especially from a litigator, because my job is incredibly adversarial. Um, yeah and you know, you mentioned earlier, oh, I hate discovery fights. I am in the same boat. I'm of the opinion our job is to be peacemakers. Uh eventually we we find the way for everybody to walk away feeling like they got something. I mean, this is it's like being the ultimate politician. It's like feeding somebody a shoe and convincing them that they like the taste of the leather. And and so some of those skills, you you know, I walk in and I'm like, this isn't helpful for parenting at all. I can't be adversarial with my toddler. I'm gonna lose.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02

So is there is there a strategy that maybe you have um that it kind of helps you separate like the critical adversarial approach in your mind to work from home life, like when you're interacting with your little one?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know, I think um I A, yeah, I think the adversarial side, I mean, there's I can tell you an example last night. My son and I I mean got into it in a funny way because he the way that started was um it was, you know, it's the holidays. Um my parents were around, and I was like, let's all go out for like a big family dinner. Let's go to there's a popular Mexican restaurant here called Chewies, and some of the listeners may be familiar. And I love Chewies. My parents love Chewies. Uh my parents are vegetarian, it's got a lot of vegetarian options. I'm vegetarian, it's got a lot of vegetarian options. Kean loves their fajita beef, so like he was on, he was normally on board. Well, today he didn't want Chewies, he wanted barbecue. And uh, well, I told him, I was like, well, we can't do barbecue, buddy, because only you can eat that. And then and then just lost it. Tantrum, right? Six-year-old tantrum, tears are coming out, and I was like, and I and I told him, I was like, listen, like I understand that you're sad, kind of what we were talking about. I understand that you're sad, but that's just not an option today. It's just not an option. And you know, he went up and clambered into his room, and um, but I digress. But anyway, he comes back and then he's like, okay, I want Chewy's then. And I was like, well, no, now that option is gone. I'm sorry, because like we're not gonna go to a place where you're not excited about, and you know, and daddy's gonna cook food at home. And so I think on those, you just kind of have to hold your line. I mean, that's that's where you know the it I don't know if it's adversarial, but I think you just have to be strong as a parent that and know that you're not hurting the child, your child is just inconvenienced and that he's not getting what he wants or she wants. But you have to hold the line because the last thing I want to give into is emotional, you know, manipulation, essentially. Um, and I call it that. They don't mean to be emotionally manipulating, but they are testing their boundaries, they are testing what they can do and how to get things. And I want to make sure that they understand that there is a right way to get something and there's a wrong way to get something. And crying or or throwing a tantrum is the wrong way, and it's never gonna get them what they want. So that would be one way, you know, and I think the same, you know, and I think that translates well with litigation. I mean, how often do we encounter that situation of like, okay, where, you know, I call it the Alamo point whenever I'm prepping deponents? Like, this is the point where you're not gonna back down from this point. No matter what happens, no matter what question you're asked, you know, the light was green. That's like that, that is the fact, and you're not gonna let the other guy confuse you. And I think it's similar with with kids, like you have to understand where the line is. And then once you once you put down a line, you kind of have to hold it. Even though, you know, I mean, it got to the point last night where I was like, okay, well, we're gonna have this or you're going to bed hungry. Those are your two options. Like, you get to choose. I'm not telling you to go to bed hungry, but you can either have, you know, I made some noodles, noodles, or you go to bed hungry. What's it gonna be? And you know, wouldn't you know it? He finally ate the noodles, and then five minutes later we were fine in drawing.

SPEAKER_02

So that's awesome because it's also teaching consequences. Yes. You're like, hey, if I'm not gonna eat this, ooh, I'm really hungry. Yeah, I bet you're gonna eat those noodles next time, huh, buddy? I've been on the other side of that kind of parenting, and it's uh and I think it's yeah, I think it's in our profession.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, we're busy professionals, right? I mean, it's so you know, I think it's I was raised in a very different household. I mean, I had a grandmother who lived with me, and she would probably give in to every whim that I had. Loved her, uh, probably not the healthiest way, uh, because I got everything I ever wanted. And I will say I was very spoiled growing up, and it took you know a huge life change, uh, which was moving to the United States, um, immigrating to the US, and she she couldn't come. And then, you know, here it was a very different lifestyle than than in India. But um, yeah, I think though, you know, I think as as parents of busy working parents, I cannot be giving into his every whim. He needs to understand that, you know, hey, mom and dad are busy, and when I have options, I should be grateful for those options and and just go with what's there.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and you know, Dave, you don't strike me as the give in to every whim of your children kind of parent. So how do you handle conflict with your children regarding what they want? And how do you let how do you prevent your uh adversarial mindset as an attorney not bleed into those types of conflicts?

SPEAKER_03

Well, there's I kind of two things. I think uh the first thing to keep in mind is my kids are not old enough to like have that kind of dynamic with yet. Uh you know, when my son doesn't want to you know eat the chicken nuggets that he loves, it's not because he's you know trying to be a little bit because he's not two years old yet. You know, he's he's still functionally abated, like he hasn't developed those kind of things. When he throws you know the yogurt thing on the floor and it splitters everywhere, and me or my wife have to clean it up, he's not doing that to be malicious, right? Um I'm not I'm not a child psychologist, obviously. I'm not that kind of doctor who uh I I would certainly refer anybody with like just actual parenting questions, um, you know, to refer to somebody like that that has, you know, an actual background in understanding um, you know, the developmental milestones and um what children at a given age are actually capable of understanding um and what the best ways to approach that. That's that's definitely how me and my wife like the parent. We we are not shy about going to try and look shit up and figure out um what's the what's what's the best way to approach this. Um you know, because our instincts may be one thing, um, but the science says something different. And uh so we're we're definitely we try to be informed um on things like that. And uh that's that's the one aspect of it is that my son's really just kind of too young to be able to do that. Like consequence-based, uh that that kind of consequence-based parenting, I I don't think that's it soon it will start working with them, but it's we're not there yet, right?

SPEAKER_02

You know, I think that's super developmentally aware, and I appreciate you pointing that out because a lot of people that even who have had kids don't understand that developmentally the kid may not be there yet.

SPEAKER_03

Um and it's not like if you if you spank a two-year-old, uh that's that's you working out your frustration on that two-year-old. That's not you teaching the two-year-old a lesson. The the two-year-old's not learning from you spanking it. You're working out your frustration.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03

They're just at that point. We have societal argument about whether or not that's okay. Uh my my opinion's pretty set on it, but uh that's that's you know, that's kind of bigger fish than we're here to fry, I think. But uh or tofu. Then the other the other aspect of it was um, you know, how do I prevent my adversarial, you know, the adversarial nature of the work. That's that's another thing, and I'm I'm sorry to do this to you. I I'm also gonna take issue with the framing of that question. Because um even though Even though we are in an adversarial profession by definition, that's not how I approach the job. I approach the job as a collegiate profession. Um I approach the job in a way that, you know, if we have to go to trial, then yeah, I will take an ad an adverse position to the other side. But I'm going to exhaust all of my, you know, all of my skills, all of my abilities, all of my efforts up until that point to try and find a solution that works for everybody as well as we can. You know, and I and I think that most good responsible attorneys, or trial lawyers at least, um that that's what they do. They want an outcome that is going to benefit their client. Um and a lot of times I feel like the best way to do that is through consensus building and not through uh a strictly adversarial approach. Um you know, I'm not saying that that's the only way to do things, that's just how I do things. So certainly if I were to approach um, and that's the other thing, I just can't imagine, I can't imagine approaching my family uh adversarially as a zero-sum game type situation. It's just it's just not it's just not how I don't know that doesn't feel natural to me. So I I don't think it's gonna be I don't think it's an issue um because uh me and my family are a team and uh we're we're a team of consensus builders, and uh so that's how that's how I'm answering the question.

SPEAKER_02

Well, I think that's a good answer, and that's how people needed to hear that question. There are a lot of common misconceptions about how our profession works, and I think a lot of people watch suits and other television shows and think that we spend our whole time doing super unethical stuff and fighting just for the sake of fighting and dominance.

SPEAKER_03

I think if people watch suits, they're gonna come away with the thought that we as a class are incapable of standing in a room for more than five seconds without putting one hand in our pocket and then gesturing with the other hand.

SPEAKER_02

That's that too. That too. Also, I had a deposition at one point. The guy watched suits and he stood up. I I know for a fact he prepped the night before, stood up, slapped the microphone off of the table, and goes, This deposition is over. And I was like, No, sir, it is not. That's not how it works. This deposition is very much still going on, and you're back here in handcuffs.

SPEAKER_03

You you don't realize that we're a profession made up of human beings, right? Like from the lawyers to the paralegals to the court reporter in the room at the deposition to the judge sitting on the bench. We're we're humans, we're human beings. We are at the end of the day, we're just trying to get home.

SPEAKER_01

You know, unless you're a Dallas attorney, which I think those litigators are just and sorry for our Dallas listeners. I'm just joking. I'm a Houston lawyer. We we are collegial. I think Dave, Jimmy and I were talking how I think, yeah, we really are peacemakers. I always sometimes I think you know, oftentimes our clients come to us hot and just angry about something. And it's our job to kind of like cool them down or explain to them the options, and then and then generally be like, all right, let me now reach out to my counterpart and and figure out what is the solution here. And it's not gonna be a pound of flesh, it's gonna be something else. So let's just find out what that solution is and work towards it.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. And that's by the way, but by the way, I I love my Dallas lawyers. Uh I also love the Houston lawyers. It doesn't matter what big city you're from.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks, Switzerland.

SPEAKER_03

When you have a case in Longview, Texas, you give me a call and I'm gonna give you the lay of the land. I'm gonna hook you up.

SPEAKER_02

Special right there. That's right. I'm gonna plead the I'm gonna plead the fifth on that one. Jimmy, you're in Lubbock, right? Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm in Lubbock. I'm in Lubbock. You guys are all friendly too. Yeah, yeah, we we we're super, yeah. That our culture is really awesome out here. Uh, you know, we're getting close to close to on time, guys. So I wanted to leave you with one quick question. Um, you know, answer it however you feel. But is there anything if your kids went back and listened to this podcast 15 years from now, is there any lesson you'd want them to walk away with?

SPEAKER_01

Um no, I just, you know, if he listens to 15 years from now, I'd be like, hey, kid, um, I love you so much. And uh that's the only thing I need him to remember. And I think the rest will be will take care of itself.

SPEAKER_03

I one thing I would tell my kids is uh all of my forms are still good. You just have to change the first name on it because your middle initial is already there, the last name is already there, so just change the first name. Um, you know, the law look, the the criminal law is not going to change that much. So it's probably all good. So use the forms. Um no, I think the the the best thing is remember that uh the the last thing I think that we talked about about the collegiality, that that we're all in this profession to one extent or another because we believe in it, um because we believe that it's a net good for our society and that we're trying our best. Um and I I I I've met a lot of lawyers over my over my years and of practice, and I I I feel confident that the majority of the lawyers that I've worked with have felt the same way. Have felt that they are you know trying their best and they're they're just trying to do their job. And so if you keep that in mind and remember it's a human being on on the other side from you, um then you're not going to treat them badly. You're gonna be uh you're gonna be somebody that is fair and reasonably minded and uh a consensus builder, uh, and and somebody that I think does a really good job for your clients because of that. So I do I I I don't my kids don't have to be lawyers. I do feel like they are gonna be.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like you just basically were like, so you're gonna be lawyers and daddy's already done a lot of the work for you. So when you said remember, and then you paused for a while, I thought we were gonna have a Mufasa moment, like remember who you are, you are my son. You know, I I was ready for it, man. I was like, oh, we're about to get like Shakespeare in this. And daughter. And oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That that, you know, Dave, I I think it's awesome to provide that kind of foundation and support for your kids going forward, even if they do become Neppo babies, you know. Um I think I think it's important. Uh, you know, I I think I would leave James with um, you're loved, and you get you get what you give to the world back, so be kind.

SPEAKER_03

Well, now I I feel like I probably should have said that.