Eddie Hearn on Fighting Dana White, Anthony Joshua Return & More | Mr. Verzace Podcast | Ep. 26

Eddie Hearn joins the latest edition of Mr. Verzace Podcast. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Welcome back to the Mr. Versace Podcast. I'm your host, Mr. Versace himself, Rick Reno, and joining me today is my partner in crime, the head of match room boxing, Eddie Hearn. Eddie, you've been in this game for a little bit more than a minute. How has the promotional game changed from when you first started to what's going on today? Good question.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I mean, I think the fundamentals are always the same, which is really the product. You know, I mean, you can be a great promoter, you can talk up the hype, you can build a fight, you can spin a narrative, but the product is everything. And really, after so long, it's only really the product that actually matters. So, you know, that hasn't changed in that respect. I think his entry of Turkell Sheikh, Riyadh season, that kind of stuff's changed. I think the dynamics between promoters have changed. I think the promoters are doing more business than ever amongst themselves, but the fundamentals remain the same. A good fight and a good build-up equals success.

SPEAKER_00 1:26

His Excellency came in and kind of ended a lot of the dis interpromotional disputes. Do you think things would have been different if those disputes would have been ended years earlier before he had come in?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Yeah, for sure. I mean, because you would have just had a longer period of time to make great fights. I mean, you know, I look at the AJ Fury fight, particularly, that fight, if me and Frank Warren had the relationship that we had now, that fight would have got made. Without doubt. You know, top rank. You know, we've we've made Muratai Cruz, we've made Nunez Navarrete, Ford Foster, Zias Against Boots, Cordina Mason in the first six months of the year. Like, you know, and and actually what it's really taught you is it's not everybody's the same, but we all share one passion, the passion and love for boxing. And and that that is always something that myself, Frank Warren, Bob Aram, Oscar De La Hoya will always have in common.

SPEAKER_00 2:20

We love the sport. It seemed to me back then, unless one of the sanctioning bodies called a mandatory or an eliminator, no one did business with each other.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Yeah, and and really now, you know, you got purse bids being avoided, you know, um step asides being easier to negotiate. Like there is there is a much I think what it's done is it's opened the lines of communication much better. The ability to pick up the phone and have a sensible conversation, which before, I mean don't forget, you know, before we did rehad season with Frank Warren and the 5v5, we hadn't spoke in 15 years of doing business. That's that is insane, really, when you think about it. And it it took his excellency to bring us together, you know, slap us around the chops and goes, guys, what because as an outsider, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, but it made sense to us and in boxes that they just don't do business.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

It's like why? You mentioned the Joshua Fury fight. You almost had that fight over the line in 21. Everything seemed to be seemed to be like it was done. Wilder won an arbitration, forced Fury into a third encounter that he couldn't avoid, plus plus he was willing to pay an exorbitant amount of money. Now it seems like it's closer than ever. Do you think it's bigger now than it was in 21?

SPEAKER_01 3:38

It's difficult to say. I think obviously AJ had a little bit more momentum in 2021. You know, you had the Usik fights, we signed to fight Tyson Fury, but then you look at you know the Jake Paul fight last year, which wasn't you know the greatest fight of all time, but from a profile perspective, really took AJ back to the top of the sport, the unfortunate incident and tragic accident that surrounds everything, the narrative, Fury's now come on. He's a household name with his Netflix show. And so I think it's like, you know, either way, the reality is you're always going to get the naysayers that say, Oh, it's not quite as big. Trust me, when these two come face to face, the world will stop. When these two walk into the ring in November, front page, back page of every national paper will be about this fight. It is by far the biggest fight in boxing, the biggest fight in the history of British boxing. But we have the small matter of July 25th in Jeddah and probably August 1st now with Tyson Fury, just to overcome whilst we get the fight that we've always dreamed of.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Tyson was trying to bait AJ into the ring. AJ wouldn't take the bait, but I know they were also asking you to get in the ring as well. Now, AJ explained to me earlier his reasons and why he didn't get into the ring. Why didn't you get into the ring?

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Well, because I would never get in without him. I look like a right player. Like, you know, we're we're a team, we we're all we're together or we're not together. You know, I mean it's like we're we're just we just wouldn't do that. I probably would have got in the ring because I'll just go along with it. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, but actually what he did was a great decision. It was also a great decision in the power struggle between the two of them, but also it was very real, Rick. Like he didn't want to let the British public think that they had a fight when it wasn't actually signed. Because he's been there before with Fury where he has signed and Fury's had to pull out the fight because of whether it be the arbitration or other stuff. He doesn't trust Tyson Fury, so he said, No, no, no, listen, when I sign a contract, I'll look you in the eye. But until then, well done tonight. And it was the first time that Fury really called for that fight to AJ. We've been calling for that fight for years, and he's kind of like, You're not, you get 40%, you're not worth it. And it was a Fury going, Come in here, you it's like, no, I'm all right, mate. And it just felt like it was it. I don't know. We left there that night, not just with watching him fight against Matt Mudov, but just with that whole experience going, yeah, we are we're the front runners here.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Now, initially, AJ was pegged to fight Rico Verhoven, who we saw last month, you know, the tragic accident happened, which pushed that fight out. After watching Rico up close, do you think it's a matter of styles make fights, or or are you now like, yeah, this guy may have been a bit tougher than I anticipated?

SPEAKER_01 6:25

It's always styles make fights, right? And I think I'm not saying that AJ wouldn't have had his hands full against Rico. I think anyone would. But I just believe the difference is is AJ punches much differently to Alexander Usik, like not just in power, but speed and sharpness. Like, and I just feel like Rico would not have been able to stand up to those shots early in the fight. Now, listen, if it goes four, five, six rounds and Rico's still coming forward and he's holding you and he's elbows in the face, and like, don't get me wrong, it starts to get tough. But I actually think the style of Rico was tailor-made for Anthony Joshua. You know, a bit a little bit like Francis Ngarnu, who who came forward in a slight, I mean, Rico was much more unorthodox than Francis Ngano, but still the same kind of little bit sort of ungainly, unorthodox approach would have made too many mistakes. And AJ's like a sniper in that situation. I believe you would have knocked him out. But listen, who knows? I mean, maybe it's one for the future.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

If you were the promoter of Usik, which direction would you go in now? Because he's got two on the table.

SPEAKER_01 7:29

It's a Rico rematch, it's the most obvious decision to make, and it's the rematch with Rico Verhoven in Amsterdam. I mean, like, you really have been given a gift, right? In the respect of like it's a little bit like the gift that we were given of Francis Ngarnu. And by the way, AJ still had to go and do that to him, but Fury, in my opinion, made Ngarnu look like a world-class heavyweight, yeah, which gave us the reason to fight Francis Ngarnu, that gave us the massive payday, and AJ demolished him. I think that in the rematch, Usik does a much cleaner job of beating Rik Overhoven, and for me, commercially, it's a much bigger fight than Ajit Cabial, right? Which is still a big fight, by the way. It's a stadium fight and everything. But if you're at the point in your career where really you've got like one or two fights left, why do you want to be fighting Cabiell when it's not like you see, one of the issues in that fight for Usik was I don't think he was ever really up for that fight. He trained as hard as he could and all that kind of stuff, but he's a legacy guy, right? And he just sort of stumbled into this fight against some kickboxer that sort of you know gave him some time to buy it, and the money was good, and yeah, it was good fun, it was in the pyramids, but it wasn't like it was another champion, it wasn't like it was undisputed, and now the rematch gives him purpose because he's being questioned as a fighter. Was it a bad stoppage? Were you miles behind? Did you get lucky? Have you got anything left? And like that fight commercially in Holland does massive business. Like, I want to see it again. I can't believe I'm actually thinking I want to see like and and as much as I love boxing, as much as I love Cabello, who I think is a great fighter, I would still rather see the rematch over Caboyel because I just don't know what's gonna happen. Rico might come in and stop him.

SPEAKER_00 9:26

Well, from a business perspective, if Usyk were to fight Cabell and lose, he could still fight Rico. But if he lost to Rico, which maybe got left Rick, that's the key.

SPEAKER_01 9:37

And yeah, and actually, you've got a back, you should be beating Rico. Like, you know, I mean, he was brilliant, Rico. I can't say anything away from him, but I just I just believe that Usyk, having fate done the 11 rounds with him, now being probably a little bit more motivated, I just believe he wins that fight cleaner. But listen, Rico's a monster, and it's gonna be really interesting. I mean, he's Rico's probably gonna want to come up, come up with some crazy number of what he wants. Do you know what I mean? But the reality is the pot's the pot, and it's enough money for everybody to do very well out of that fight.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Now, you were never a fan initially of these crossover fights because Usyk going into a fight like this, if he would have blew out Rico in two rounds, people would have said, Oh, this is a farce. Oh, how could they put this guy in with Usyk? But then Usyk struggles a little bit with him. They're like, Oh, Usyk's overrated, he's old, you know, Rico's at the top of the world, kickboxers could be boxers, MMA could be boxing, and you get all those narratives now spinning around.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, but then you go on the other side, AJ flattens and Garnu, and they go, Well, it's an MMA fighter. It's a bit like Pringer. You know, on one hand, you've got people saying to me, Oh, this is an easy fight for AJ. Then you've got the manager and other people out there going, Why have you chosen a guy with such a high knockout ratio? It's like, you know, because you've got to be beating these guys. Like, there is no excuse. Usyk has to be beating Rico Verhoven. He's never boxed before. Right? Usik's the pound for pound number one. It doesn't work out like that. Now, what he did on the night was incredible, but Usik's got to be better. And it's the same with this fight. We have to beat Prenger. If we can't beat Prenger, we shouldn't be in the ring with Tyson Fury. So we've got to go out and do a job on him and make a statement.

SPEAKER_00 11:24

Now, speaking of fights, are you serious when you say that you'd fight Dana White in the ring? Of course. What a buzz would that be?

SPEAKER_01 11:31

Now, like, this is the thing. I can't really fight, right? I grew up around boxing all my life. So I've all when I was young, I thought I could fight. I had a couple of gym bouts as an amateur, but I'm pretty useless. He ain't bad. Like, I've watched a couple of spirals. He's probably the favourite against me. So I I watch him in an interview with Pierce Morgan, and he says, Yeah, I'll fight Eddie Hearn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll fight Eddie Hearn. So next thing, everyone's asking me the question: Will you fight Dana White? They're putting it on me. I go, Fuck it, yeah, go on then. I'll fight Dana White. Then they go back and say, Eddie's accepted the fight. Oh, we're bums. Oh, obviously, we're bums. Oh, I can't believe he's saying that's a big fight. That's so disrespectful to his talent. No, I'm just telling you, it's one of the biggest fights in boxing. You know boxing, you know numbers. It doesn't matter how good we are, it's just massive. And now, obviously, like as I said in my interview the other day, this guy is very powerful. The business is a really great business. But in terms of boxing, in terms of the interviews, in terms of the narrative, I play with this guy. Play with him. It's like food, right? Where it's like, and and I know exactly what like he makes so many mistakes. Like, so he calls me out, and now everyone, every time he posts, everyone's saying, You shit yourself from Eddie Hearn. Right? And it's like, I know it'll be driving him crazy. But the reality is it's a $30 million fight each. And he said, Well, I don't need the money, I don't think Eddie, I want the money, yeah. I always need the money. But how fun would it be? See, I don't look at it, Rick, as like I look at it as oh my god, can you imagine doing a training camp and actually walking out into an arena and having a fight? You know, that's that's a challenge that I would personally love in my life. And he's a competitor, I believe he would love the challenge, but he can't bring himself like and now of course I'm gonna double down and treble down on it because he's looking worse and worse. So I text his excellency my interview the other day with him. I said, make the fight, make the fight, because I want it, and I want it, I just want to experience the buzz, even if I get knocked out, it's no problem. I probably will.

SPEAKER_00 13:37

But imagine the buzz. I think I saw you quoted if I'm getting it correctly. You said that Dana's butt cheeks are bright red right now from the spanking that you're giving him in the press.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

It's just like if this was a fight between me and Dana, the ref would have stopped the contest. Because he's coming out with statements. You see, he's wondering how they match him. Have done six shows this year. We've done 14. It's like, what are you talking about? He says, We've done more shows than everybody else combined. What? What are you talking about? We're not working with the governing bodies, yet then you cry and salt when one of your fighters gets stripped by the IBF. We're coming in with this new league. Where's the league? Wait till you see our body of work in 2026. Well, just to let you know, it's June. That's halfway through the year, and you've done absolutely nothing so far. So, but no one questions them because they're control freaks and they don't allow people to lever the access. If you were sat here now with Dana White, you'd either have questions you were allowed to ask, or they'd ask you to see the interview after if they wanted to edit anything. And the reality is if you pushed him too hard, you'd never get a chance to interview him again. And that's bullshit, and that's not the way we operate. I sit in front of all those media, you know, I sit there for hours and hours. No, I don't say to don't ask that. Can I see the interview after? It's real and it is what it is. But when you do it every day, and by the way, my education was battling with Frank Warren for 15 years. Frank Dana White is not fit to lace Frank Warren's boots as a boxing promoter. And I've had to compete. That's my grounding, that's my schooling. And trust me, me against Dana on that sphere, on the digital age and the conversation and the banter, that's like, once I've had that with Warren, this is a joy. A joy. Now, would a tune-up be between you and the shalominator? Well, no, I think maybe give Frank Warren the shalom. No, sorry, Frank Smith the shalominator, whatever he's called.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Actually, because he knew I was going to talk to you, Spencer Brown said, if Eddie fights Dana, I want to be in the co-main with the shalominator. Yeah, well, he said he's felt the slap, he's not felt the punch.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

I'm not having any smoke with Spencer because I, although I've got a big size advantage, he's a strong bastard. And he, you know, I I don't want to write hand over at the top from the gold star captain.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Spencer said, the issue with with the shalominator is right now they're arguing over the catch weight. Shalom wants 180, Spencer wants 280. And Shalom wants a wants a rehydration case.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

At the moment, Shalom's got more legal cases than than you've got Persace shirts. So like I don't know, I don't know what what he's doing. Has he sued you yet? Do you know what? I think I'm the only person that Shalom has not sued.

SPEAKER_00 16:16

I think that's right. That's amazing. Which which considering how many times the two of you have had a go. I know. Because usually when someone says something about him in an interview, he's gonna tell you, I'm gonna sue you for saying that.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

I don't, I don't mind. I don't I I never I I don't mean it disrespectfully when I say I don't look at him as a competitor because he's in my industry, but I don't actually mind Shalom. I think he's just he's well out there.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Now, outside of AJ and Fury, another major fight that you're trying to put together, should he go over in his next fight, is BAM and Inoue. How much of a reality is that fight to take place in 26?

SPEAKER_01 16:55

I feel like well we have the keys to the two biggest fights in boxing. AJ against Fury, Bam against Inoue. One's in the heavyweight division, one's in down in the super bantamweight division. The biggest fight of the big divisions against the biggest fight of the smaller divisions. Now, Vargas is my fighter who Bam fights next week. And you know, I can't overlook him because he's champion and he's a great fighter, but Bam just looks to be on another spectrum at the moment. And Bam's this really interesting character where he has no interest in hanging around. Do you know what I mean? I I think Bam wants like three or four years in a game done, out before he's 30 and go and enjoy his life. But he wants the biggest challenges ASAP. And it just feels Rick that the momentum of going to Bantam, like rather than don't forget, we were gonna fight undisputed at 115. Yeah, but now going to Bantam will just set him up perfectly for going to 122. And it is such I mean, one, it's just the greatest fight, but it's such a huge fight in Japan. And I've spoken to his excellency, I know he spoke to Netflix, it is the fight to make, December or January. And Bam will, I think if Bam wins next week, he will say, Listen, let's just make the fight. He he's ready to jump in, he's in his absolute prime, and if we don't make it now, we meant we might miss the boat.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Yeah, he he has said that at least his promotion has said he might stick around for one, yeah, two fights max at that weight before going a feather wave.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

And that's the problem. That's why we have to make it next, really, because we'll miss the boat.

SPEAKER_00 18:29

And you got also another big fight coming up, Jeron Ennis, Xander Zayas, unification. If Boots comes away with those titles, what would be the next step for him?

SPEAKER_01 18:40

I mean, I think this is the fight, the breakout fight, to really announce the next superstar of particularly US boxing, but but world boxing in Boots. I rate this guy so highly. I think if he's gonna do what I think he's gonna do to Zander, he's gonna come out as a superstar. He is a legacy guy, right? You've got Josh Kelly, you've got Fandora, they're the two other champions. And obviously, we work with Josh Kelly. You know, I have been talking to Louis de Cubis and PBC about making Kelly against Fondora and then the winner fights Boots. Obviously, you've got Virgil Ortiz that could come back into the mix as well. It's just shaping up into a great division. But I know for Boots the focus is on being undisputed.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Did it hurt Boots's momentum at all? You know, he had been chasing Crawford for quite a while and it just never materialized. Did it hurt him at all when he just couldn't get that fight? Well, he couldn't get that fight because everyone knew how good he was.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

And by the way, Crawford knows how good Boots is. He never would think that Boots can beat him, but Crawford would be looking at going, why would I fight a guy so good that doesn't quite have the profile and it's not that big a fight? Now it would be a monster fight, but Crawford's retired. So, you know, for a long time it was very difficult to land Boots the big fights. We need to build him, we needed to build him commercially to be able to get the dollars together to pay the guys. I had to pay Stanny Ones a fortune, right? Then now Xander. So we've done a great job. This is Boots's chance to go in and become unified at 154. He's been unified at 147, and once he wins these belts, he's got a challenge for the others.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

And you got another new champion in your wings, Jack Catterall. Yes. Is the Role fight going to happen? Because it you get these mixed signals on social media.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Well, it's gonna be ordered, but it's just whether Rowley has a fight in between. Like when you look at Rowley, it's really Devin Haney or Ryan Garcia or some other fight. The problem is Jack Cattrell's really good. Like, you know, I saw the Inside the Rope thing, the segment, and they were saying, like, basically, I think this guy is like right up there with all of them, and he is, he's a very, very good fighter. So if you're if you're Roley, you don't really want to risk it all against Jack Cattrell. You want to take a bigger money fight with probably with the same risk. But unfortunately for him, he's been that inactive. He's got to fight, and the order is upon him to fight Jack Cattrell, and we'll be pushing to make that happen. Now we're so you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

I'm definitely gonna push this. Co-manager or co-promoter? What do you want? A little bit of both these days. Especially in the it's it's quite lucrative now in the Jack Caterall business. Yes, yes. Now we're now at the halfway point of the year. Map out in a perfect scenario what match room looks like for the next six months.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Well, in a perfect scenario, you would of course have BAM against Vargas next Saturday, Boots against Xander Zayas, um, June 27th, July we'll see the return of Diego Pacheco, which we'll announce shortly, and also the return, more importantly, of Anthony Joshua, July 25th. Um then more activity for us in other markets like Mexico and Australia in August, and then we lead into the possibility of September 5th, Katie Taylor at Croke Park, which would be so iconic, you know. Then we've got a lot of fights to reschedule in the shape of Dalton Smith against Albert Puello, Callum Smith also been ordered to fight Dimitri Bival. If that fight doesn't happen, he'll be rematching Joshua Boatzi for the the world light heavyweight title. We've got Ben Whitaker will be in another major fight in September, October, should he come through Popeye on the card June 27th. We've got AJ Fury in November, we've got hopefully Bam against Inoue in December. I mean, there's there's lots of stuff that that's been missed out as well. And you know, I've never known a busier time for boxing. We've we've now done 15 events as we sit here on June 1st, um, and just excited to try and get as close to 40 as we can for the year, but I've never known a better time for boxing.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

If those fights come off, would this be one of the biggest years for match room?

SPEAKER_01 22:58

Yeah, but not just for for match room, but I just think for boxing. Like, you know, if you look at it, it's just every week is just incredible. Obviously, the inclusions of read season, but the ring cards, plus every promoter seems to be really stepping up and trying to push the boundaries. Um, so for us, yeah, it would it would probably go down as out. I mean, look, any year when you make AJ Fury probably has to go down as one of the biggest years. So we've just got to take care of business July 25th and then knock out the big man, Mr. Fury.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Now, in closing, AJ Fury, what's your hard line prediction of how that fight plays out?

SPEAKER_01 23:37

I've always believed that AJ stops Tyson Fury. Always. And having watched the Matt Mudoff fight, and I do expect Fury to be better in the in the AJ fight than he was against Matt Mudoff. I just believe that if AJ can go into that fight with confidence and belief, he stops Tyson Fury. I've always thought it, and I'm more confident than ever.

SPEAKER_00 23:56

Well, you heard it from the man himself. I want to thank Eddie Hearn for joining me today, and until next time, stay sharp.