Choosing Him Every Time: Autistic Burnout, School Trauma and a Life Without School, with Linsey Biggs

In this episode of This Voice Is Mine: The Unquiet Podcast, Dr Emma Offord talks with Linsey Biggs, full-time parent carer to three and the voice behind Unschooling Stanley, about the years that led her to take her eldest son out of school entirely.

Linsey describes watching her son's distress build until it became impossible to ignore, and the moment she finally trusted what he was telling her over what the school system kept insisting. She talks about recognising her own ADHD and school trauma through his journey, the judgement that came with choosing a different path, and what eight years of unschooling has taught her about trusting children as whole people, not projects to manage.

A raw, grounded conversation about crisis, recovery, and what becomes possible when you stop pushing a child to fit a system that was never built for them.

Follow Linsey: @unschoolingstanley (https://www.instagram.com/unschoolingstanley/)
Divergent Lives: divergentlife.co.uk
This Voice Is Mine: The Unquiet Podcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:11

Hi, this is Dr. Emma Offitt, host of This Voice is Mine, the Unquiet Podcast. For every neurodivergent mind that was masked, misread, or missed, where identity is reclaimed and the system gets named. This Voice is mine is a podcast for those who were told they were too much, too sensitive, too chaotic, too intense or not enough. Hosted by myself, Dr. Emma Offord, a clinical psychologist, neurodivergent woman, an unapologetic system disruptor. This podcast explores what happens when difference is pathologized and what becomes possible when we drop the shame, the script, and the medical model through stories, reflections, and conversations with people who were never meant to fit. This Voice is mine reclaims the truth of neurodivergent minds, bodies and ways of being. This is not about fixing or fitting in. It's about remembering who we are and unlearning everything they got wrong. Today's conversation explores something deeply personal and quietly radical. What happens when parenting neurodivergent children doesn't just change how you see them but changes how you finally see yourself. My guest today is Lindsay Biggs, a full-time parent carer to three children, navigating a path that looks very different from the one many families are told is the right one. After her eldest experienced autistic burnout and significant school trauma, Lindsay made the courageous decision to step outside conventional education and create a different life for her family. Through her children's journeys, Lindsay also began to recognise her own neurodivergence and revisit the school trauma that shaped so many of her own adolescence and adulthood. She's deeply passionate about advocating for children as whole humans, not projects to manage or adults in training, and about challenging the assumptions we hold around learning, success, and what children truly need to thrive. Lindsay, welcome to the podcast. So delighted to have Lindsay from Unschooling Stanley here on the podcast. And um, we've been following you for years and years, Lindsay and I know you've been following us, and it's been like this, you know, social media relationship that's blossomed, and it's so great to see you in real life. And thank you for coming today. I'm so happy to be here, it's amazing. Thank you so much. You've travelled from all the way from the Isle of Wight, and it's a heat wave, everybody. Well, it's been hard work for everybody to get here today.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

Little Lindsay from the Isle of Wight that's used to fields and sheep and horses, and just ferry travel is fine, but trains in London are scary. We got here. I know.

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Very proud of myself. Proud of all of us. Yeah. We're doing that. Um so Lindsay, for those listeners who maybe they don't know as much about you as we do, can you tell them a little bit about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Yeah, sure. I'm Lindsay. I have three amazing neurodivergent children, and through them, I kind of I'm self-diagnosed neurodivergent myself. I would love one day to have a diagnosis because that validation would be like everything, but I absolutely know I am neurodivergent. It would just be I I see how much it benefits my children. Two at two out of three are diagnosed now, and I'm absolutely sure, even at three and a half years old, that my daughter is neurodivergent too. So as a family, I feel like we've been on this whole, like kind of I'd say about eight-year journey from when my now 12-year-old was younger, he was the one that kind of showed us this new light that it just nothing was working. All the mainstream things were just absolutely not working, um, from preschool to school to groups to all the things that you would do with you know, when you're trying to be a typical family and do typical things. And I feel that as a quite a young mum, I was only 22, 23, I can't remember now, but 22, 23 when I had Stan. And so I was trying to just copy what everyone else was doing, and even though it felt way too hard, and for him it was way too hard, we just pushed and pushed and pushed and pushed, and the warning signs were there. Even at nine when he was nine months old. I had like physical um symptoms of like burnout. I was so poorly, I was in hospital having like heart scans, and I pretty much dropped him into his cot because my arms would just give way. I was absolutely exhausted from just trying so hard to just do all the things, and I just couldn't keep it up any longer. So I I had to lean on support, but something wouldn't let me lean on support. I was like so convinced that nobody else could look after this little one the way I could. And so I think from like becoming a mum and having a baby that was absolutely not typical and never ever slept, and you know, just did all the very typical neurodivergent things of a baby and toddler. Um, it took kind of really breaking both of us and having to completely rebuild this whole different life that we live now, which is a life without school. My children don't go to school, one of them has, and he had school trauma from his year at school. The middle one, who's eight and a half, has never been to school, and my three and a half year old hasn't been to preschool or any kind of childcare, and the plan is that we just carry on doing life, and people find that really crazy, but actually it's just become really normal for us, and I can't imagine life any other way because it really suits our nervous systems, and I absolutely know that my eldest would be would struggle so much more if we didn't do things the way we did them. I know that all of us as a family learning about autism, learning about ADHD, PDA, has really allowed us to just embrace this more organic life that really does suit us. And so, yeah, I just think why not do things differently if it's actually gonna benefit you all. And you know, I feel like I'm getting much more confident in the last few years now that everyone is getting older and we're doing it, and it's not I'm not kind of I don't mind if people want to judge it's because they don't understand, and it's so people are so brainwashed by the school system, and that's how things are done that they don't recognise when there's this whole other way that makes sense once you're doing it, and you kind of see the proof that it's still working and children are still thriving and learning and growing, but it looks completely different to school, and so yeah, that's kind of my story in a way, how I've got to here, and I just share. I used to share on Instagram about home education because it started off like more like school at home, and that stu soon changed to be much more like unschooling. I didn't even know what unschooling was when I named the Instagram page Unschooling Stanley, it was just that that sounded good to me, and then I found this whole like community of people that were doing this unschooling and game schooling and all different types of schooling and forest schooling, and I was like, oh wow, this is amazing. And then as we learnt more and more about Stan and PDA and self like having to learn through autonomy completely, self-driven, kind of interest-based learning, is how now I kind of share much more about just children as a whole and how they can just thrive by totally being themselves and learning what interests them and being led by what feels good and safe, and it can look totally different to school, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

It's it's amazing you know how you raise the the voice of unschooling and how you know you show people that there is a way to do this and a life that can be led that is full, that is regulating, that is right for children. Something you said though, and you were explaining about um your story, I think it would be a good place to start is to think about how you you you you didn't know about your own neurodivergence, you didn't necessarily know about your child's neurodivergence, and it took you to kind of breaking point. But at that point you didn't know that unschooling was going to be the right way. No, it's something that a lot of people talk about that they feel very unsure because it goes against the mainstream idea that this is what you should you should be doing and this is the right thing for all children. So to me, that must have been I imagine that would have been not the easiest of choices at that point because now you know, but then you didn't know to choose.

SPEAKER_01 9:01

I can sit here today and feel much more confident and talk about it. But four years ago, even I would I still people talk about the wobbles all the time when you're choosing a different path and choosing outside of the school system because the school system has such a powerful thing over people, much more than you realise in families in outside of that system. As soon as you step out of that, people are always gonna judge you and have an opinion on that you're not doing it right or not doing something. So I think, yeah, those wobbles come thick and fast, they really do knock you in you. You just have to keep kind of holding on to your why and why we're there. And I definitely back then um I just kept believing in Stan, like I just kept looking at this little boy that could not do anything else but keep choosing him, just keep choosing that he couldn't access the things that other children would enjoy. And yes, they were not saying any of these things are bad for some children, but there are children that really do need something completely different, and I think the only way looking back that got me through to have the confidence that I do now, and kind of the proof and the path, you know, is already trod. It's it's just the fact that I just kept looking at him and going, every time I tried to push him a little bit, we go back all the way to the start again. So we have to choose a different way. I don't have another choice. I never taking him out of school, I didn't feel that I had this plan, I didn't have any plan. I just knew that it wasn't working and I was gonna have to try and find something else, and just started with nothing, just love for my child, I suppose, and know that he I didn't know pulling him out of school, I still didn't know he was autistic then. Yeah, I just knew that he was struggling so much more than what people realised, and yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

Are you able to talk a little bit about what that struggle looked like at the time?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Definitely. Um so he from three years old, he would absolutely be a preschool refuser, so he wouldn't go stay at preschool, which is exactly funny. It's funny because it's my story as well. So my mum would always go to preschool with me, I went to preschool with Stan. It took months and months and months before he would stay there, and I wasn't happy to just leave him until he m found a buddy with one of the like keyworkers, and he absolutely loved her, and then he would kind of go. And as long as she was there, he would just sit with her, he wouldn't play with other children, he wouldn't talk to other children, he would just be with his key worker. And so when school then came around, I was like, Well, he hasn't got the key worker, he's not gonna have a one-to-one, which is basically what he had, and he just started really, really struggling. He first of all, um, the refusal got much, much more strained, so it would kind of start off that it would be I can't put my school clothes on, I can't, you know, eat my breakfast, but then it would go further back, so he wouldn't be able to go to sleep the night before because he knew that he was going to go to school, and this was just affecting so much of his life. He was just crying and melting down and angry and just beside himself all the time. Like he was so stressed and he didn't enjoy school. They would always tell me that he was fine at school, they would always say that you know, once you're there, he's just got anxiety, and you know, he just wants you, but once you're not there anymore, he's fine. He was absolutely not fine, and he's talked a lot about how adults and I believe him, it they lied to me in front of him, saying that things hadn't happened that had. He just struggled so much. The demand avoidance was because his anxiety was so high with PDA looking back. It's like as soon as you're more anxious, then you're gonna be much less more much less able, sorry, to access things. So he couldn't even access the toilets, he couldn't access eating lunch, he couldn't access getting change that he could do at home, but he couldn't do it. So he just refused absolutely everything they said. He couldn't read, he couldn't write. Now, if you met him, he is literally the most incredible boy ever. Like, he is so clever, he's amazing, he's just we call him an absolute legend. Like, he really is some sort of like nutty professor, like he's just so cool, and it's just it blows my mind that they had this version of him that just didn't make sense to me because I was like, This little boy that I've known for all this time is absolutely just crumbling away, and the months and months and a whole year went by, and honestly, it wasn't just his mental health, he was poorly. I would say he really was physically unwell, he had repeated tonsillitis to the point of having to have a tonsileptomy. He was just so low, he just looked awful for a little boy. He hadn't he had no life about him, he lost the ability to play and enjoy things that he did enjoy because it just destroyed him. It was so sad, and it just got to the point where he started year one, he everyone was telling me it's gonna get better, it's gonna get better, it's gonna get better. The same story of so many people, and then um not only a few weeks into the year one, where it's even more intense in a way than reception, where at least they can play, although he never played in the playground with anyone and was on his own. But he started year one, and just that was like crisis point then. He was just a monster, basically. He tore my clothes, he was punching me, he just absolutely lost control of his whole body every single day, and it was dangerous, it was scary, and he he it was just him completely unable to cope with life. It was so sad. At the time, did you what did you think was going on for him? I definitely at this point was like, this child is has to be autistic or something. Like I I definitely, yeah, I think I I already had suspicions when he was at school and all of this was going on. I was like, it's strange that all of these 28 children go into school every day and don't, you know, melt down on the playground and holding onto my ankles and ripping clothes, and it and I kind of straight away was like, right, okay, this definitely is different. And I wonder why I was like that too. And it all just made me go, right, okay. I don't know. And to be honest, my family were always like, Yeah, if you need to take him out of school, do it. But we didn't know what that was going to look like. We didn't know, you know, how we were going to make that work. It didn't even feel like it was going to be a long-term choice, it was just we need to do this now because this child is in crisis point and we're his parents, and no matter what, everyone's telling me that they can get a diagnosis, they can help him with you know taking him out of class and they can do all of these things. I don't think anything by that point when he was so so poorly and so mentally frazzled and really hated himself, he would say things like, I want to die, I don't want to be here, I hate my life. That's a little five, six-year-old boy. Like that is tragic, and I the only thing that I wish I'd just done it sooner because he just spent it was before lockdown, and then lockdown happened, and we were all together, and it just felt like this time that I don't have any bad feelings about that whole lockdown experience. Because honestly, for me, for me and my family, it was just this time of being together and getting to know each other again and be like, the world can just stop because we need this to stop right now, we need to just let stand, and that was when his sixth birthday was actually. So he was five when he was at school, and yeah, he just started to really like slowly, slowly heal a little bit, but that school trauma is still there yeah six and a half years later, like that's not something that just goes to the street.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

I was I was gonna ask that, Lindsay. Like, what's what's the recovery been like? Because often, um you know this, like lots of parents are kind of like do I do I keep going with this or do I come out and and all of like you said, the kind of uh the feelings that come with that, but then also it it doesn't it doesn't just end when when they come out there there's the like the kind of um you know getting them into school and all of that ends, yeah. But the recovery time and so long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I don't think you can you can't underestimate that can you?

SPEAKER_01 17:57

No. I truly believe that he's still recovering six and a half years later. I don't know if ever it will fully, you know, that school trauma he might still find that he's an adult and might get triggered by something that was something his experience at school. He still talks about things only a few months ago. He told me something I'd never known that happened, and there's things that I I won't talk about here today, but he I can't believe he still has such clear memories, and I think we're fooled to think that children just forget stuff, they don't remember the this stuff. You know, this just happens to everyone, and this is what they have to go through. Our children are have nervous systems that remember everything, yeah. They're so in tune with how they work. They he talks very clearly about exactly what happened, what was said, how things, and it he's still processing it now. Like he he absolutely is, and I think with the learning side of things, he's very well into being healed because now he is accessing more formal education, which I never thought would happen. He's still very self-led, he's doing functional skills instead of GCSEs, but he can do it himself and just work through it, which I can't believe we're even in the position that that is happening. Like I didn't think that would happen even a year ago, maybe, but he's very much when he wants to get somewhere because he's got in mind what he wants to do with his life and what he is thinking he's really good at, and so he's got an aim, and it's just I'm just following his lead, and we're always kind of scanning what opportunities can we give him? What can we, how can we help him to access things? And it might not always work, it could trigger school trauma. He could, you know, he sometimes accesses online groups where someone is way too schooly, like an adult in that is way too schooly for him, and he just is like, nope, absolutely not, I can't do that. That's way too so he has he did have a maths tutor for a little while, um, but once that was kind of the novelty wore off, then it's kind of which has been the story of Stan, like it's always he'll access things for a little while, and once it's kind of he's done with it, he's done with it. But instead of thinking, I used to always think, Oh, like what we're gonna do now. Now I know that he takes what he needs out of things and then he moves on, like he'll do Spanish Duolingo for a whole year and then just suddenly be like, Yeah, I can't do that anymore. But that's just because he there'll be something else that's gonna come up, and he, you know, I just really trust him that it's gonna be okay because it is it is okay, and he's showing me the way all the time.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Yeah, there's um that that term school trauma isn't something that many people understand and uh it's something that many people don't believe. Yeah, and uh you you know you've experienced it as an adult and in your with your child. Yeah, but we work all the time, um so behind the scenes we know this story and similar stories of people experiencing a describable trauma in the body, a trauma in terms of not feeling safe, their mental health becoming really dysregulated, not being able to see the child in front of you as your child because they're they're so affected traumatically. And certainly when we have tried to explain to schools to local authorities this child is experiencing school trauma, and we explain what it is, but we are told that's not a diagnosable thing because it's not in the diagnostic statistical manual, the DSM. But trauma is, yeah, and trauma can happen anywhere, and I think it's r you know really incredible what you're doing and raising the voice about that specifically that that school is thought to be one of the safest places you can be. And for some people that might be fairly true, but for some children, and especially neurodivergent children, that that environment is traumatizing to their nervous. system isn't it and to their relationship to their sense of trust in the world to all kinds of different things.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Absolutely. I think for me, because I was that child that was the school refuser, people say, How did you just choose this? Like you're so brave. I just can't quite they're always messaging me like I can't quite make the leap. I don't believe because they were maybe okay at school. Maybe they don't quite but because I I guess lucky that I align so much with Stan, our nervous systems work so like we're not obviously we're very different in some ways as well, but we do work in such similar ways that I think I I get it. And I saw what happened was really quite powerful in that I saw myself in him. I saw that child school refuser I know how that feels because that was me and I wasn't allowed to stop. I just lost myself by just pushing through and pushing through and pushing through and I did do school but I wasn't okay. I was never okay. I absolutely struggled in many more ways than I ever told people. I you know got in trouble a lot I was just a bit of a rebel I you know didn't do anywhere near as well as what I probably could have done because I didn't understand that I had AD ADHD and I just couldn't concentrate and people just speaking at me and it meant absolutely nothing and they'd be like oh get on then do you know what we did and I'd be like I have no idea what's going on because I'd just be absorbing the environment for an hour and you know there's so many things that I think it didn't work for me. I know that I did okay I know that I came out with qualifications and I know that I'm you know bright but I don't think any of that came from school I really don't because all I did was struggle I hated it I hated myself I didn't I came out not understanding myself one little bit. I I still am working on that now because and so when I saw Stan it really didn't take me very long what a year but I thought I can't do this to him because I know what it feels like and I know the end result is not good. It's really not good. I truly believe that I could have done so much more if I had understood myself and I know Stan does understand himself now but I still don't think that system and that environment is right for him and I still you know knowing yourself and understanding your diagnosis and understanding being really self-aware and self-advocating the way he does like an absolute pro still wouldn't mean that he can just go there and deal with that. It still just wouldn't be the right thing for him. And so yeah I think it just made it an easy choice in a way because there was that little girl inside of me going help this boy please help him because nobody helped you but you can do different and this is going to be something that's going to heal you as well and I think that's the most amazing thing really because I'm just kind of so happy that my children already know themselves better than what I do like because they're just following trusting themselves and following what they're truly good at and what they enjoy and what brings them life and you know and that's all life is about really isn't it you just got to you're gonna get there you still can get a degree you can still be a professional you can still do any of those things because if you have the self passion and drive you're gonna do it anyway there's no system and no structure and no teacher that can ever teach you what's inside of you and it's always gonna you know if you just let that kind of come out it's it's gonna get there without people doing harm by it and actually changing it and changing people and making you feel not enough or you know that's what the school system did to me. It definitely didn't do any good by by me at all.

SPEAKER_00 26:07

It just did bad thank you for sharing that Lindsay and um I what was it like for you then kind of as a mum like realizing you know taking him into school and and s seeing everything that's happening in front of you what was that what was your experience like of that and at what point did you think right this definitely no more I'm not doing this.

SPEAKER_01 26:35

It was absolutely traumatising it really was I can't stress enough how much I was just in such a bad place. Like I was tearing my hair out I just cried all the time and because of that school and teachers then latch on to the fact that you're not doing good. Yeah and that's why your child like look at the state of you sort of thing but they have no idea that you're literally dealing with a child that won't eat won't sleep won't that hates themselves that doesn't have any joy in life whatsoever and as a mum to a little boy you just think what on earth have I done what have I done like this is awful I felt so bad and because all the outside noise was just keep going Lindsay it's gonna be okay you know it's gonna be alright soon oh and you could see the mums in the playground every morning were like oh gosh here she comes again with him screaming and punching her and just pretty much dragging him along probably judging and yeah and and kind of like looking at me in sympathy but I was thinking I just don't know who is ever going to be able to help this situation but also I think for quite a few months I didn't know what other choice to make. I felt like I was just stuck I was stuck in this situation that everyone was kind of giving me a pat on the shoulder oh dear this is bad but at the same time there's no answers there was no one actually saying this isn't normal like when everyone's seeing a child distressed to that capacity every single day and not kind of thinking this this maybe should you know something needs to stop like why didn't they ever see Stan and say you know I think this is doing harm by him that's what I was kind of hoping that someone was going to go stop this like we need to do something different like like permission. Yeah it's kind of because I think I was I was young I didn't really know what I know now and I needed someone to go this isn't normal but all everyone kept saying is this is normal Lindsay this is going to be okay this is you know and that's how strong the school system is and the should you should yeah put your child in school yeah that's how strong it is that that a child is in trauma whether they knew that or use that term or not clearly a distressed child clearly a distressed mum and then what happens is you're blamed for not coping you know confrontation marks um and it and it's push the child even harder and even further and just wait and eventually this will go away.

SPEAKER_00 29:14

Like that is many people's opinion yeah because you you as a mum you become like you're you're the most trusted person aren't you for your child but you're then putting them into that environment it's it's then like for the for like who do I trust now then because you're doing and their voices seem to be much more powerful than parents.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

They seem to be that once your child's in that system then you listen to the adults in that system and you become parents feel really like they don't have get to have a say anymore. It's really strange situation to be in that I find they're kind of wanting to and they're shaking the rails outside and saying like listen to me and emailing all the time but nobody listens. It's just kind of like well it just everything just gets fobbed off all the time we went all different directions we tried had so many meetings we tried to change things in all different ways and none of it was actually ever going to work and I deep down I knew that and I think months before I took him out I said to my husband we're gonna have to do something different like it was we already had moved him schools by the way so he'd already had like two reception classes um and we were thinking we're gonna have to move him to a like different type of school maybe a smaller school or maybe uh get his diagnosis and then he can go to like a special school special needs school but I was like he doesn't need like no he doesn't fit anywhere he doesn't need that it's just that but yeah it just I think it was more the I was still in a place of not being very confident in myself and because I was so worried that I had been through this as a child and everyone says I turned out okay. So you know what yeah that's the thing and so that that in the back of my head I was just thinking but you were that child Lindsay and you you're all right like and it was kind of that negative talk in my head of you can't you can't make these wild choices that even friends in my life at the time were really negative about it when I kind of brought up the thought of taking him out of school it was never met like confidently well like positive light whatsoever.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

It was always just kind of like really there's a huge amount of resistance towards unschooling homeschooling alternative education provision.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

Where do you think that comes from I think I don't know I just honestly think that we most of us have grown up in the system ourselves and so we just don't realise how much brainwashing it has had over us and how much it implements like so much into our lives it's it's honestly coming out of that now I can now see inwards and go wow like really we are we really believe that children need to be this certain way and children need to learn this certain thing and children need at this time and this space and this you know it's to me now it absolutely bonkers that it is the way it is and I understand that there's there's not really any space time money to have this flexible system and I know you've talked about so many times before how the system is broken. I think everyone knows even in it that the system's broken that they can't change it there's no kind of alternative but I think what would be really helpful is that people are quite in denial within the system and could just start saying advocating for children in it that really aren't doing good that really aren't kind of they are really are struggling and nobody everyone just keeps quiet about it they'll be okay they'll be okay like that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

And also maybe thinking like reducing the stigma and the judgment around alternative types of schooling and learning like if if the resources are not there in school and they can't change everything to make everybody happy and other people want to make other choices not making it so difficult. Maybe making it not just bureaucratically difficult or less difficult but but psychologically allowing people to feel more safe to make that decision you could draw on your personal experience which help you trust and believe your child but yeah as you said not everybody has that to draw on and even if they do they still might have that my child should be in school instilled in them but if people are not society isn't saying do you know what if you if that's safer for your child and your child's going to get their education go for it why the resistance like what why do people think it's so like you said the word wild like the wild decision people actually think it's a crazy wild rebellious you're going to do like harm will come to your child if you do that they won't get the education they won't get socialised they won't what would you say to some of them that's what I was going to say I just think it's it's just really sad actually I think it's really sad that we as a society have just come to this place that children have to be a certain way and that's I think why it it's not a coincidence that all of these adults I've listened to so many episodes just in your conversations here that so many people are having to figure themselves out as adults because they just didn't understand why.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

And where's that come from where I just think it doesn't you know if children were allowed to be individuals from a much younger age I wonder if they would actually never need to that's what I'm hoping for anyway that they won't need to get to their 30s and 40s and 50s and have to refigure themselves out and think about what they like and what they want to do. I don't think it's normal that any 16 year old child should have to be choosing what they want to do with the rest of their lives. Like I think children should just be children and I don't think we're there is space for that in the system and I think parents are so fixated on making children adults instead of just letting them be children. And I think that's where it comes from is this inbuilt that we need to make children independent we need to make them you know think for themselves and do the same as everyone else and actually that's where this kind of radical scary they're thinking we can't let children just be you know wild and but they're honestly not they're just beautiful individual self-driven like experts already and I think how amazing that they're gonna get to live their lives not like us as neurodivergent adults having to figure it all out because we just lost ourselves in the system that and I think if parents really thought about it they would also see that you strip it all back and really it's just a system that's so tight knit that you're in you can't get out of it's one way only no matter how much advocating no matter how much you try to make it more fluid it's never going to be your child is squished into this space and they're not gonna be free of it until whatever the result is at the end which you don't know I think people also think that it's like well they're definitely gonna get they're definitely going to come out and be alright then they're definitely going to have a career or they're definitely going to have that's just a absolute it's wrong. It's not that's not the case for everyone it really isn't. And even if they do do well and do get qualifications and do go on to do something doesn't mean that that's what they actually wanted to do if they you know weren't changed and moulded to be like everyone else it's lots of people like this isn't the job I want to be in that I this is not what I wanted to do with my life it's just that's what happened because of school you know that's just how the path that was made for me and I don't think we should be so scared to let children just you know put some paving down for themselves because they are children are so clever and children are so able to advocate and self-understand and self-aware like I think adults are so quick to go well they can't do that and they can't obviously there's a you have to guide them and obviously you can't let them just completely they're children you have to look after them you have to be there and support them and help them but for me it's all about connection and that's what the difference I think between I see all these schoolgoing families and I see how disconnected they are yeah and then I look at families like mine and lots on the on Unschooling Stanley I'm like how beautiful that they really are truly just focusing on connection and how how that can change everything and how I wish that that was what I had because I think that would have really supported me in my life and I'd probably be you know different now I'd probably be able to I don't know I always say maybe I would have been an expert in something if I because it's kind of like I really truly feel like I would have been an expert like I see my children already experts in planes and Minecraft and um roller coasters Stan's absolutely sure he's gonna be making real life roller coasters one day that engineering. But I think gosh what I don't even know I don't know what I like and what I'm good at.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

I still don't I'm 35 and I don't I don't know what I want to do with my life after at the moment I love being mum we're sold aren't we we're sold a um you know you you go to preschool you go to school then you go to college you get your degree you get your job you get married you have we're sold to that whole thing isn't it and then people get to like their late 30s early 40s whatever and it's like well I I've done exactly what you've asked me to do. Well who am I and this this is not what I this is not you kind of find yourself in a situation don't you that doesn't fit who you are because you never discovered who you were as a child.

SPEAKER_02 39:12

I don't think school is it you know it's it's it's a place where children spend or may spend a huge amount of time huge amount of their developing time and you know it's not just an educate a place for education it's a place where you need to go to the toilet sometimes outside of the the allocated time that they say you it's you know it's a place where you know you can't move if you want to move it it's it's restrictive and as you talk about Lindsay it it disembodies people from themselves from knowing who they are what they want or it's perhaps telling them that it's wrong to do that or want that or be that way.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

And so no it isn't just education it's like this is your identity forming this is your body developing your nervous system wiring all in development in these institutions so why aren't they thought about a little bit more from that way I know there's pastoral care I know there's growing awareness of various things but there's still a fundamental thread that children should be in school so unless that's relaxed a little bit the other stuff is all going to be about keeping them in school and so it doesn't completely fit no what would you say Lindsay as well like to parents where they probably reach out to you you know that that are their child is experiencing the same thing and and they they just don't know what what to do and and do they because we see that like do you take them out of school and what if I do that what if this happens and it's just it's like a constant and then I don't want to be putting them in there and have you got anything that you might kind of it's really difficult because I think it's such an individual experience because some people I think I say to everyone if you were in the situation that I was in it was at the point where there was no other choice and I think any other parent would make the same decision.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

So there's that kind of extreme kind of place where you just when your child's kind of rumbling on like it's not doing good for them they're having meltdowns at home but they're apparently fine at school and there's this whole you know there's this whole thing that parents are really struggling to believe what's true like believe their child that they hate school and they're anxious there and they really you know don't like people or teachers or the environment or they're not eating or you know whatever it is they kind of think but on the other side I'm for hearing back that you're doing really well academically or you're doing you know so there's this battle and I totally get it. And I think all we can do as parents is just truly believe and witness what our children are trying to tell us and instead and just try and shut out all of that other stuff because at the end of the day none of the academic stuff matters if your child is going to be broken at the end of it. It really doesn't matter like it it's just kind of thinking I wonder if one day they still can do the things that you're wanting them to and I kind of say to parents I totally get it that you really want your child to obviously you don't have a child and want them to not be successful in their life or not you know become an adult but at the same time maybe nurturing them to just be okay be truly well not just fine not just you know managing not just coping truly know who they are truly feel safe in their skin to be who they are and as neurodivergent children I don't think there's anything more important and I think that's the bit where parents really need to decide like is it truly them just struggling a little bit or are they actually you know get get like building this school trauma that's gonna affect them for the rest of their lives or really have an impact on their wellbeing physically as well.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

It it does get because that the there was a similar thing with my youngest like you you get to a point where you're like this cannot like you have no choice in the end do you because the dysregulation is just becoming more and more and more and and also like I I remember um one day and he he went off to school and then it took me five hours to get back to a point of regulation not because I'd lost it with him I hadn't but because you're holding so much aren't you and then you're just like this is not working this this isn't just a little bit of anxiety or there's there's something much bigger and then because of our work we can you you're Already know the kind of trajectory, don't you, of what's gonna happen?

SPEAKER_01 44:04

But I think it's a knock-on effect on the parent and the whole family as well. So the stress that my toddler, baby toddler, when that was all going on, we were dragging Stan to school every day. Like, how was that for that little boy that was also involved in that? And it just really had a knock-on effect because I think I my nervous system was absolutely all over the place. I was just so emotional, I was so dysregulated. I was angry with life because I was like, this is just awful. Like, is this really what life is about? And so me and my husband were not getting on. It was just awful for the whole situation. So it's not just about that child and at school, it really has this whole thing that I honestly can say that my family was just miserable. We were so unhappy. We were trying everything to change everything else but school. It was like, well, maybe if we do this and maybe if we do that, and maybe if we move closer to family, and that's what we did. We moved. My husband was still working in Sussex, and we moved back to the Isle of Wight, put Stan in a school there, so that I was closer to my family. I lived in a horrible little flat because I was like, we still had our house in Sussex. I was miserable, I was so sad, I was so depressed, I was so anxious, and I was just on autopilot, and that's all I can explain. I was just in this fog of and it was horrible. It was horrible. Looking back, it was just an awful place to be, and nobody knew that I was struggling. Nobody knew they knew Stan was struggling because he was shouting about it and screaming about it, and you know, throwing everything everywhere, but I was struggling too, and I think that's the bit that parents miss that it really has this huge impact on. We tried everything, we tried to make it work, and when you're like faced with making a choice of home education or unschooling or choosing to just really believe in your child and let's just let them be for a minute, let just just let them kind of recover. That that's not just an easy decision, that's not just something that's years or months of just stress, so much stress, and it's just yeah, I really can't explain how bad it was. It was it was really, really bad.

SPEAKER_02 46:23

And I often think, you know, the community of unschoolers um so often don't get the validation of what they went through as a family and as an individual. It's you know, you're you're out you're out of the system. So, you know, it no one comes knocking on your door and says, How are you? By the way, I just wanted to check, and like you know, other than checking in just checking you are schooling. Yeah, that's the check. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, you're you you go through this trauma and your child goes through this trauma, and it goes unrecognized and and overlooked or or you know, mislabelled or whatever, but that to me perpetuates a trauma for people and be because they're not getting repair, they're not getting resolution, they're not being seen, and their voice is not being heard, and you know, you have to carry that knowing what you all went through, which is huge, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 47:23

And I think as the years go by, the that story and how hard it was is kind of left behind because now that you're just seen to just choose this way, which obviously we are for another child that hasn't had school trauma and hasn't had all of that, and I think that's come here because it just felt right that another neurodivergent child, completely different, you know, he would be very different in the system. I can see it, how it would kind of pan out. Um, more like me, actually, a bit of a rebel and a bit loud and leary, and he would not be able to move his body, he's absolutely sport mad, he really needs so much sensory input, like he just verbally stims all day. I cannot even imagine him being told to sit still and be quiet for most of the day, like it would destroy him. And so at eight and a half years old, he's absolutely loving his life. He still does all the learning, but he does it in the way that's right for him. He's bouncing on his ball, he's rolling on his ball, he's outside, we're doing maths while we're playing sport and darts, and you know, things that really do make it accessible for him. And I'm not saying it's easy, it really isn't. We're exhausted all the time. It's the other thing people miss. Yeah, we're really exhausted. It's so hard work, and obviously, I've dedicated this instead of finding my way with a career or anything like this. This has literally been my life for 12 years, but I wouldn't change it because for me, this is the work. If I can just make I if I can kind of live this and know that I'm giving my children the opportunity that I never got to just be an authentic neurodivergent person that just finds their way in life in a safe place in a safe way, advocating and just knowing themselves so well. To me, that's absolutely everything that I could give in life, and then hopefully, you know, they tell their story one day, and that you know, the ripple builds a wave, doesn't it? And it kind of is just truly changing the way that adults see children, choosing changing the way that society sees children, just you know, deciding that they are enough already, they don't need to be changed, they don't need to be shaped, they don't need to be quiet and sit still, they just need to be children because that's already perfect the way they are. They're gonna be adults for most of their life, they're gonna be, you know, they will learn to clean and cook and pay bills because they're gonna have to, but right now they're just children, and if we can just embrace that tiny snippet of life instead of trying to make them not be children, trying to make them be quiet and sit still and learn a certain way that doesn't even make sense to the way their brain works, or you know, it's so it doesn't it doesn't make sense when you break it down like that. No, it really doesn't make it make sense, it doesn't be bizarre. But yeah, it's just I think yeah, but now it is a life choice. It is now that you know we've come so far and seen so much good that we know our family and our children and how we work, and I wouldn't want to even risk, you know. People say to me, Well, Albie might be okay, he might, you know, he's different, Stan, he might be okay, might not get school trauma, but I don't want to risk if he's gonna be okay or not, because Albie is Albie, and I know that if he goes to school, he won't be able to be Albie because Albie is loud, Albie moves a lot, Albie does, you know, all of these things, and let's just let Albie be Albie because he's only eight. And you know, if one day he says to me, Mummy, I really want to try school, I'm not gonna stop him. There's no, you know, I'm I'm not this rigid, oh, we're only unschooling, and that's you're not gonna, you know, I'm very open to the fact that I'll lead wherever they, you know, if he wants to try school and then hates it, we'll go back to unschooling. You know, it's not it's it's okay, it's all just following their lead and trusting that they're gonna tell you what they need, what they need to try, how they figure things out, they just show me the way all the time. And when they instead of keep forcing, I suppose, with the education system, it's like, but this is the way you have to do it to pass the test. Instead, with unschooling, you can be like, Well, how does it work in your brain? How does it work for you? How do you get to that answer? Or how does you know what feels good to you to explain that? And I think that's the magic, is that for me in the education system, it a lot of it just never made sense because my brain just didn't work the way people were trying to get me to work things, and that was the only way to be correct. Whereas for my children, they can tell us, well, this is the way that makes sense to me, this is how I'm working it out, and then we go, Oh, okay, we that's fine. So that's your you know, and that's the difference is that we're not trying to make them just learn one way, we're trying to just work with them.

SPEAKER_02 52:12

Complete sense, complete sense. I feel like we've been sat here for about five minutes. Our time's almost up. I've got to be honest. I was checking my watch several times, I'm like, it actually is. Um I can't believe that that has really flown. Um there are thousands more questions, and I'm really annoyed to come back. Um but um so we ask every guest to bring in an object, something that kind of represents something in their life that grounds them, a story to share with the audience. What have you thought, Lindsay?

SPEAKER_01 52:45

So it actually broke, so don't tell Celia. But Celia made me a key ring a few months ago. She she drew it, painted it herself, and we put it, baked it in the oven. It's very cute. And the reason that I love this is because she said that the cloud is sad and the sun is happy, and there's a rainbow in between the cloud and the sun. And it just I when I was sat there that day doing all three children were making these little keyrings, and I just like had a like a realisation of how far I've come in this journey because I was a stressed out trying to control everything. When Stan was Celia's age, she's three and a half, I was probably just a shell of myself. I really felt lost in life. I thought I was a terrible mother, I just didn't know how things were ever going to be okay. And now, like reliving the toddler years with the lenses of neurodivergent life and neurodivergent children and PDA and ADA and just having an understanding of all of it. It's like I've come out of that rain cloud into the sunshine, and I can just see my children just truly thriving, and that's just so special to me. Like it just really yeah, that is wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 54:16

I love that, Lindsay. Oh, I don't want to say thank you so much for coming. You do have to come back. Normally we say it's optional, but there's no option, you have to come back. There's so much more I want to talk to you about. Um, that was that was wonderful. So thank you. Thank you for coming all this way. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Thank you for sharing your story.