Being Different Together

#13 - The Spring Equinox Episode: Peaches, Pruning, and Becoming More Yourself

• Nyssa Hanger • Episode 13

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In this episode of Being Different Together, Nyssa and Kelly welcome the spring equinox by exploring what this turning point in the seasons can teach us about personal growth, relationships, and real dialogue. 

Using the story of their unassuming little peach tree—hidden, pruned back hard, and now bursting with blossoms—they unpack the difference between cultivation and control, and why pruning (in your garden and your life) can feel painful but is often exactly what allows new growth to emerge. 

Along the way, they touch on the meaning of the spring equinox, the symbolism of eggs and Easter, and how ancient rhythms of light and dark mirror our own inner seasons.

Main Topics Covered:

  • How the spring equinox mirrors the inner seasons of your own growth and change
  • Why a scraggly little peach tree became a powerful symbol for self-discovery
  • The surprising connection between pruning and becoming more of who you already are
  • What Jungian individuation really means (and how it’s different from self‑improvement)
  • How real dialogue “prunes” people-pleasing, politeness, and performative responses
  • Simple language shifts (like dropping “you” and “we”) that make conversations more honest
  • The idea of “karma farming” and how to plant seeds for the life you actually want
  • Why measuring success by effort and conditions, not outcomes, changes everything
  • How to hold commitment in relationships when you feel stuck in the same old patterns
  • The difference between cultivating growth and trying to control it—in gardens, goals, and love

Referenced Episodes

Stay in Touch:

Nyssa Hanger: www.nyssahanger.com | IG: @nyssahanger

Kelly Brady: www.kellybrady.me | IG: @drkellybrady

SPEAKER_01

Welcome to Being Different Together, the podcast for people who want to make the world a better place, but no, they can't do it alone.

SPEAKER_05

I'm Dr. Kelly Brady, acupuncturist, psychotherapist, and certified dialogue therapist.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm Nissa Hanger, massage therapist, aromatherapist, coach, and real dialogue specialist.

SPEAKER_05

Together we'll explore how conversations can improve relationships, make work more joyful, and spark healing for ourselves and our communities.

SPEAKER_01

And listen, we don't shy away from the hard conversations. In fact, we welcome them. This isn't about being right.

SPEAKER_05

It's about being different. Together.

SPEAKER_01

Hello, hello. Hi. Hi. We are here again. Where did that whole thing come from? Hi. Oh, that's like the classic tween YouTuber. Isn't it? Bing! Hi.

unknown

Bing!

SPEAKER_01

You're listening to another episode of Being Different Together with Nissa and Kelly. We never say our names, but I guess they we say our names in the intro. Well, I'm Nissa. I'm not. That was a perfect yes and moment.

SPEAKER_05

That was a perfect yes and moment.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05

That would be a fun episode if we just improved the whole episode.

SPEAKER_01

Where we had no topic.

SPEAKER_05

Or we had no topic. Oh we went to the book. We're not doing it today, though. No, because we totally have a topic today. Yeah, we have a really sweet, sweet topic.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I think so. So um this episode is going to be dropping um, if all goes according to plan, on March 19th, 2026, and that is the day before the spring equinox of this year, which will occur um officially at, if I remember correctly, 1046 a.m. on March 20th.

SPEAKER_05

What's the difference between an equinox or equinox and a solstice?

SPEAKER_01

Okay. So the solstices are when low the the summer solstice is when we have the most daylight in the sky. So you know how in the summer the days get longer and in the winter the days get shorter, like the amount of daylight. Okay, the day actual day is still 24 hours. Actual day, clocks still work, you know, where um time daylight savings non not excluded here. Because that's a whole other time math situation. What you're talking about is daylight. Yeah, like like the time that the sun rises and the time that the sun sets is a longer amount of time between those points in the summer. And in the winter, the longer amount of time is actually the nighttime between the sunset and the sunrise, the time of darkness. It's darker in the winter and it's lighter in the summer. And it also has to do with the position of the sun on the horizon. If I'm remembering correctly, the sun is more northern in the summer and more southern in the winter. And I may have that reversed.

SPEAKER_05

Well, I mean, I can't tell my right from my left half the time anyway. Yeah. So listen, but just know that. I'm not going to be the one to correct you. When I when I got a client on the table and they're laying face down, I have to be like, hold up your right hand. Yeah. But what if they don't know they're right and left? Well, most sometimes I'll see them like if their dominant hand is they'll pretend a right, it'll L with your left hand. Look, the whole thing with the L is is very confusing because if you just make an L with the other hand, you're looking you're still looking at an L. No matter how you look at it, you're looking at an L. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01

One is a backwards L, baby. To whom? To you. No, no, no. When your palms are facing outward, one is a backwards L. This whole thing is a big thing. But then if my backwards L, if I hold it to my forehead. Look. And we and we digress.

SPEAKER_05

So it's in the southernmost part of the sky, the sky, the sun?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so the sun, throughout the year, the sun, you remember how like sometimes sometimes the light shows, shown, shows shines. Shines. That's the verb. In through the window, and it will be at certain angles at certain times, right? That is the change of that through the season is the sun being more north or more south on the horizon. Okay. Okay. And it gets to a certain point on that horizont it doesn't just keep going and float off into the end of the horizon because the earth is flat or something, right?

SPEAKER_05

Like it gets to a lot of no, from what I've read on X, the it there's a very good possibility that the Earth is flat.

SPEAKER_01

Well, we'll put a pin in that. Um but it gets to the physical.

SPEAKER_05

It might roll right off if the earth is flat. I mean, who knows where we're going? Put a pin in the flat earth, does it roll off the edge? And if there's no one there to hear it roll off, does it make it?

SPEAKER_01

Are we even alive? But it get the sun gets to a certain point in that movement through the sky through the seasons, and then it stops. And that solstice, sol means sun, and stice means it it's in the same place. So the solstices is when the sun appears for several days to be in the same place because it's it sort of stalls out at the end of that um spectrum of where it is in the horizon, and then it slowly starts moving the other way. So the solstices are those points in time where the sun seems to appear to remain in the same place. And this is from like people long before us that uh didn't live in houses like we do with lights and shit. So but they paid more attention to where the sun is and it let them know that the season was changing.

SPEAKER_05

So right. So like in the winter solstice, there are those um solstice keys that are that ancient people have you know, they where they make they make the block of whatever, and then there's a little little keyhole in it, and that the sun comes right through that hole on that day for a certain time. Exactly. This is, I guess, what Stonehenge is.

SPEAKER_01

Sto I believe Stonehenge, it occurs in the summer solstice. Okay. And then there is a place in Ireland, I'm sure there are many other places called New Grange, right? Where it was sort of an underground tomb, and it was only on the winter solstice that the sunlight would shine through this hole in the tomb and light up the entire tomb, which is super awesome. It's very cool. Okay, so that's what the solstice is. Now the equinoxes, equa meaning equal, is when the sun is at that midway point between those two poles on the horizon. So if the winter is all the way to my right, your left. We're facing each other. And and the summer is all the way to my left, you're right. The equinoxes will be right in the middle. Okay. It's that midway point between the summer and the spring equinoxes. Now, these are also correlated to when the sun enters certain um astrological signs. So spring equinox, which is coming, is marked by when the sun enters Aries. Oh.

SPEAKER_05

Okay. Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Okay.

SPEAKER_05

You know my brother Tim? Timmy? Yeah. Yeah. Timmy. Timmy. Don't you love it when there's a 70-year-old man in your life and his name is Timmy? He's such a cute Timmy, too. Timmy. He does. Timmy. Um He's a little teddy bear. Oh, he's such a sweetheart. He does this thing on the on the spring equinox where he he likes to balance an egg on the countertop. Really? Yeah. I've never heard of that tradition. It's some kind of thing where the egg can balance because it's the time. I don't even know. That just sounds like witchcraft.

SPEAKER_01

But has he tried it on other days?

SPEAKER_05

That's my I don't even know if I have it right now that I said salt involved. I think there might be salt involved. You know, h his wife, our sister-in-law, Cindy. Cindy, you're listening, right? I know Cindy is a is a is a f is a fan.

SPEAKER_01

She is a fan. I've received a few.

SPEAKER_05

We loved her too. She's like just wonderful. And um I don't know. Maybe maybe they'll respond and put it put it. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01

I think it is a well that's interesting to to do an egg on spring equinox because eggs are one of the symbols of spring.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And Easter's coming. When is when is Easter?

SPEAKER_01

Now Easter, I believe, follows more of a lunar um calendar. It's the And I forget exactly what it is if it's the first, it's the Sunday after the first. I d I could look it up right now, but I I'm not going to. Sorry. Everybody all listeners, you can look it up. But it but that's why it's like sometimes it's in March, sometimes it's in April, sometimes we're like, whoa, it's really early or it's really late because it has to do with the moon. The moon. And the moon follows a different calendar than the sun does.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. So you wanted to talk today about the spring equinox particularly and um sort of the symbolism around that. And uh we have a really cool thing happening in our garden about that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_05

Which has been really special. And um we have this little peach tree.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You want to tell them about the peach tree?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. So um when I first moved in, the peach trees in the front yard, and there were a lot more plants in the front yard when I first moved in, right?

SPEAKER_01

Well, the big thing was the star fruit.

SPEAKER_05

There was another there was another fruit tree in the front in the front yard. It was a star fruit tree, and then there were also a lot of other things that were growing in there. I guess there were. When I think back. Yes. Moringa, sure. Uh-huh- uh is it katut? Kuttuk, I always get it wrong. Kutuk. Yeah. Um various types of gingers. I mean, the front yard was quite um a lot of bananas. It's just a lot of it was very um I remember Okay, let's see.

SPEAKER_01

I remember it was the jungle aesthetic. Yeah, one time my friend Jamie came to visit. Yeah. And she walked up to the front door and she's like, basically when I walk in into your into your yard, I immediately start playing in my head. Welcome to the jungle.

SPEAKER_05

You know what I heard when I first came and saw it? What? The lion sleeps tonight, you know.

SPEAKER_04

The lion sleeps tonight.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So that was a song of my childhood, I gotta say. I don't think I've ever talked about the the pick and sings that my parents would do, but that was a that was a frequent rotation song. Oh, it's a great sing along.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I mean, I definitely heard that, and I think there may have also been uh a small family of uh, you know, some sort some sort of fairy or pygmy. Maybe they were leprechauns. I mean, I hope that they're still there. I would have driven them away. I hope they're still there too. But I when we when you and I, when we got together, we sort of I was like, wow, I would like to clean some of this out there. Give me a machete. Right?

SPEAKER_01

And um uh yeah, so we've we've been, you know, it was just really overgrown and it needed care. And um the peach tree, when I first moved in, I've been in this house since 09. And probably within the first couple years, I was like, okay, I want to plant a fruit tree. And we had a good friend, um, may he rest in peace, Billy Daniels. Um, if you had the pleasure of getting plants from Billy, he was just the best um gardener plant man. And um I was like, hey Billy, you know, what kind of fruit tree you should have put in here? He's like, Oh, I'll bring you a snow peach. I believe it's called a snow peach.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, they are these little white peaches.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_05

And and they grow good in Florida. Well, I was so t which is hilarious, right? It's a snow peach. Why would that call it Florida? It's just it's just the most unexpected find. I mean, and I think that that's was part of this I mean, you know, I I my mind like thinks symbolically. Sure. And um and I had this experience where I was like, okay, well it's like the tree was even the tree was always there even when I didn't know it was there. That peach tree. Like it was hidden behind all those other things. And I I think that that's it's just for me a really cool symbol of you know the archetypal self in a way. It's like this part of us that is within us that is unconscious, it's always there. But it's kind of hidden in a in a you know, hidden from us.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And when uh and it's right in the center of the of your yard, of the of our yard, which is amazing. And um and it was really unexpected to me that it was a peach because I was always taught that peaches don't grow south of like Tallahassee, maybe really more so into Georgia.

SPEAKER_01

Sure.

SPEAKER_05

And think about Georgia peaches and North Carolina and South Carolina and you know those states, but in in Florida it's just too hot. So I was very surprised to find it. I felt like, ooh, this is some kind of exotic treasure.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and it's a really unassuming I mean, I don't I don't know peach trees very well, but I'll speak for our um my perception of our peach tree is it's very unassuming. I mean, from well, you know, a lot of the year it just looks like sticks and it don't look like much is you know, it's not like the star fruit, which was very big, almost flamboyant, right? Like it's always fruiting, it's always blooming, it gets bigger and bigger, it has these hanging branches, and the peach tree just kind of looks like I stuck a big branch in the ground. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, yeah, it it's it's not as that's true, it has a different kind of growth habit. So the the part of the process was you know, we we we decided what we were gonna were we gonna keep the peach tree or were we gonna keep the star fruit? This was the first part of the conversation.

SPEAKER_01

That one had to go for one to thrive. That's right. And we have a second starfruit tree in the backyard. So um sorry, star fruit. And um so we did. We got the we got the star fruit out, and I would say pretty, you know, soonly after I could already see that the peach tree was getting some good growth. Now, there's another thing that the peach tree had never really gotten. And listen, I was like young when I put this peach tree in. I don't know what I was doing. But as you pointed out, it really needed some serious pruning.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, it did. It did. I mean, you know, it's like if to go back to like this Jungian idea around individuation, this idea that the psyche already has within it the blueprint of the self. And that it's like within, if you think about it, like uh the peach tree could only be a peach tree because it has a blueprint of a peach tree inside of it, right? In the same way I can only be a Kelly tree. Like I can't be anything else uh but myself. So this is a really different kind of approach because individuation or the process of um what what Young called individuation, which is kind of like the growth arc across the lifespan, um, isn't self-improvement. It's self-revelation. It's like you're revealing yourself more and more. And um but the pruning part is is uh I think really akin to um to shadow work.

SPEAKER_01

Tell me more.

SPEAKER_05

Well, you know, this idea that you kind of have to cut away what is like sometimes things are growing that aren't helping you. There's sometimes there are things in your life that are growing that aren't helping you. So, you know, to be able to cut that away, like there was this point with the peach tree where I I said to you, I'm going to prune this peach tree.

SPEAKER_01

Oh man, I was so sad.

SPEAKER_05

And you were you I like let's talk about that because it was a really evocative moment.

SPEAKER_04

Oh, don't cut off all the branches.

SPEAKER_05

It looks so bare. Well, it's like the peach tree didn't need a new identity, though. It needed to become more of what it already was. And that's the thing about that, you know, and and I think this is where real dialogue kind of ties in, also.

SPEAKER_01

You know, the verb that comes to mind is facilitation. You're facilitating that peach tree to be more of what it was.

SPEAKER_05

Right. Right. Right. You're it's like in dialogue, you're clearing away conditions so that your psyche can speak honestly. So you're clearing away things. Like the way that we teach real dialogue is not exactly the way people speak to one another regularly socially. Like it's a it's a different way of speaking because we clear a lot, we clear away a lot of politeness. Like, I don't know what where your mind goes with that, but what gets cleared away in real dialogue that is not necessarily there.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I think of like um, I mean, one of the f whenever I'm explaining real dialogue to people and I find myself explaining it, I will often find myself while I'm explaining it starting to fall into the typical conventions around languaging, which would be something like, well, you know, when we're talking about Yeah. And even just that use of the second person. And I I'm sure a lot of listeners are like, yeah, yeah, what were you saying? But but we just we just I just want to pause at the use of the second person. When we talk about ourselves and we use the second person, like I'm already by implying that second person, by using we, I'm implying that I have some knowledge about how anybody else that might be listening talks, which isn't necessarily true, even though I can imagine and use this common out this this common convention in language of speaking for everyone, it's not speaking, it's not speaking for myself. Yeah. And so e for me, just practicing noticing when I fall into speaking for more than just myself, um, and then correcting that it it changes things a little bit. And guess what? Like when I start to just speak for myself, that is what is true. Because no one can argue with me speaking for myself. Um it's true for me.

SPEAKER_05

That's that's yes, yes. I mean, I think real dialogue often begins with uh like these cutting away of the polite lie.

SPEAKER_01

So what do you mean by that?

SPEAKER_05

Um you know, it's it it's like growth begins with removing what we're used to practicing or what we're used to protecting. It's like the the the peach tree we had to sort of prune it back, which looks it can feel violent, right? I mean, like you you had a really big reaction to me wanting to t I took the tree. It's called taking something to stick. And you know, it's like when you you right, you prune something. I know you prune something back so hard that you you know you take down, you take away all the green. And I remember when I did that, you were you I mean you're I probably cried. Yeah, I think you did. And um but I think of pruning as devotion to future growth. Yeah. And where I see pruning more so in my own relationship with dialogue is uh in my willingness to listen. And particularly when I'm paraphrasing, you know, the whole part about listening listening accurately is that when I paraphrase that back to who I'm listening to, I prune away everything that I'm thinking, all of my opinions, all of my judgment, all of my reactivity. The idea is that that gets put to the side and in that moment it that gets pruned away, and what comes forward is just the listening, just the paraphrasing, right? Like, so okay, I'm understanding that you just asked me to go more into why I think that the pruning relates to real dialogue. That's a paraphrase, right? Everything that I added after that was my own blah blah. So that part of the listening, uh, you know, I think that that I can think about that in terms of my relationality with another person, and I can also think of it about the way that it sort of I listen to myself and and what what am I gonna listen to? You know, m my mind is full of thoughts about me all the time. What am I gonna choose to listen to? And what am I gonna prune away?

SPEAKER_01

Sure. That we can only listen to so much. Right. So that's right. Maybe choosing what investing in that future growth. Yeah. Well, and can we talk about what happened after you pruned it?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, well, because then there was a period of silence, kind of like the listening. There's so silence and waiting is a period of growth, right? I mean, it's like it just looked like a stick. It looks like stick all winter long. And then we did that for three seasons. Yes. This is our third season of doing this. Yes. So not only did we take it to stick and we removed a bunch of the trees in the yard and other things that were blocking the light and the wind from the tree. Yes. We also stabilized the tree. Yep, because it was leaning really far on one side. Because it was growing towards the sun. Because it was trying to get it. It was trying to make it underneath that star fruit. Right. Right. So we used um stakes, I guess. Yes. Yes, and we really strongly staked it into the ground. Yeah. Right. So that it could grow more upward. Yep. Mm-hmm. Yep. And then the first season we trimmed it back and it came back in there and we had like what five or six peaches or something. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I mean it got all these beautiful leaves on it. Like all those sticks that maybe didn't have as many leaves on it because there were all these other branches that had leaves on it, then they it they grew more leaves and more branches grew from the stronger branches or trunk, or I don't know what the difference between a branch and a trunk is, but I'm sure there's some sort of middle term in there in in botany. And listeners, I don't know if you can hear Poppy with his bone, but that that's just his contribution to this podcast.

SPEAKER_05

He's a very good boy. He's about a good poppy.

SPEAKER_01

This entire endeavor is how can we distract the dog enough to make him not as distracting to the hilarious. It's so good.

SPEAKER_05

Well, I think the thing too was like cut it. I cut it. I also not only did I take it to stick, I also cut it. I topped it.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05

I made it a lot shorter.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Which drove energy down into the roots and then and made and then therefore made the trunk stronger. Yeah. So, you know, again, it's it's like it's just such a important, I think it's just a beautiful metaphor about how sometimes we we, you know, it's like we there are necessary seasons. So that's part of what we're talking about. You know, it's like we had to cut that back. There was a season then of silence, and then there was the spring, and it's with these little teeny weeny leaves.

SPEAKER_01

The leaves and then the blossoms. And what's happened this time? Yeah, this year's. Well, there was one other key thing that we did, which was we fertilized it. Yes. So it got fertilized for the first time, maybe ever.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, you got those cool plant spikes. Mama told us, Mama Stella told us about these plant spikes, right?

SPEAKER_01

And we just put them put them in the ground, as the direction said, probably, I don't know, a couple months ago. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Ooh, what a difference that's made.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my god, the the flowers are so beautiful, and it's covered in these flowers. And it flowers before the leaves grow back, also.

SPEAKER_05

Yes, so there's this point at which it's like cherry blossoms. It does look like cherry blossoms, which were you know, someday I really want to go to uh go to DC with you and see the cherry blossoms. That's on my list. Um, yeah, so it I think we have like 150 blossoms or something this year. I mean, we we it's not even that big of a tree. I mean I mean it's it's just no bigger than a human. It's just dripping with you know these beautiful little pink and and in the center of every little pink blossom is this tiny little peach.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but there are some out there that look like I don't know. They're really gonna be like the the size of a walnut now. And by the time this podcast airs, they'll be even bigger.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, it's been so beautiful to watch. Like I'm now a um I'm a convert to pruning, which I mean it also reminds me of nerd alert time management. Because I wish I had that little trumpet on that was like, No, it's so exciting because you have a finite amount of time, just like there's a finite amount of sunlight out there, there's a finite amount of soil out there.

SPEAKER_04

Time management is time management.

SPEAKER_01

But it's literally how you're how you spend your time is how you're spending your life. You're right. You know, and so if you're spending your life doing 15 million things, then you're only doing a little bit of those 15 million things. I mean, some the the best decisions I've ever made is to cut things out of my life because then I get to double down on the things that really matter to me. 100%. That book, Essentialism, is great. Yeah, yeah, essentialism is very great. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so being really clear on what are, you know, we had to make the decision. It's the star fruit. We could have left the star fruit there. This peach tree would not be doing so great. No. And the star fruit probably wouldn't be doing as great either. I mean, the star fruit in the back is way happier than the star fruit in the front when it wasn't competing with this peach tree. And the star fruit in the back, it's less sunlight. Okay.

SPEAKER_05

So remember a couple episodes we talked about planting seeds?

SPEAKER_01

Yes. Episode number eleven, I think.

SPEAKER_05

Was when we talked about the pen. The pen. And the idea, the ideas in in Buddhist philosophy, ancient Buddhist philosophy about seeds and karma and how you're creating the life. The life that you have right now, you created with your past actions. Yes. This is the idea. Yes. Where the what everything that's happening in your life right now, you created. And you didn't you didn't create it just by thinking about it, you created it by what you were actually doing in the environment. So you were planting the seeds for now, back then. Yes. Something to think about in terms of the front yard was that a lot of the plants that were put in the front yard were put there without a lot of intentionality. They were planted, but they weren't um cultivated. And this idea that we talked about in the in the uh I think episode 11 about the pen was being like kind of being a karma, karma farmer. Karma farmer. Karma farmer. Which means if you intentionally want to create the life that you want, instead of sitting around and thinking, oh, I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, I have my bank account is here, you know, all the affirmation kind of stuff. It's it's more about actually planting a seed by doing that for someone else. And the way that you fertilize that is by rejoicing in that at night. That the fertilization, how do you make a seed? How do you like the fertilization in that model? I wanted to bring it back to that because I think in that episode we didn't have enough time to really talk about it. And I it's so important. I really want to share it with people because it's it's so beautiful. So it's like, how do you how do you really fertilize what you have planted in your life? Like if you're trying to grow your business, or you're working on your marriage, or your your parenting, or your relationship with your pets, or you're working you're a social justice warrior and you're working in that sphere. You wanna, you know, you're you're you're building affordable housing. I don't know what you're doing, but you're doing these things in the world, right? And you're wanting to to grow in these directions. You know, it it's it's like how do you further how you first of all you decide what seed you're gonna plant. You say, I'm gonna plant a peach tree. I want this thing, you know, that that's part of the four steps. And then I'm gonna help somebody get it. So I'm helping this peach tree do this thing, right? So I you know, I'm thinking about that for us just in terms of the tree and the way we've taken care of the tree is actually very good karma for us. To take care of the tree is actually good karma for us. Does that make sense? It's yeah, because we're doing something intentional that is generous, that is for this thing, for the sake of this thing.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And we're getting ourselves out of the way, and we're really just doing it for the sake of doing it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And and so then you fertilize it and boom. And the and the fertilization in the in the four-step process around being a karma farmer is thinking about before you go to bed at night, rejoicing in who you helped.

SPEAKER_01

Mm-hmm. It felt so good to put the fertilizing stakes down in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And when we got it, when we, you know, got it all propped up and I know you love what you love pruning time.

SPEAKER_05

Oh, I really I really enjoy the pruning. And um, yeah, I mean, I think that the thing is that the tree okay, so now the tree is bearing fruit. Yes. And that's because of the tree.

SPEAKER_01

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_05

Okay. But the blueprint for that fruit was inside the tree already. We just created the conditions.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_05

The causes and the conditions for this peach tree to make peaches. We helped those causes and conditions to happen. And that's what makes things happen, is the appropriate causes and conditions. Okay. And we so we can't create the cause, that's already done, but we can create the condition. Right. And I think that's something that again we can like this this goes this goes to like the condition in in having a decent dialogue. It's like you can't force a peach tree to bear fruit. I can't force a person to talk to me.

SPEAKER_01

Isn't there that like proverb where it's like, you know, the farmer doesn't go to the grass and go, grow, grow. Right?

SPEAKER_05

Grow, motherfucker. You know, like Samuel Jackson. Samuel L. Jackson it. I love him. What's the matter with you, motherfucker? Sorry, I kind of yelled that. But it's like if I'm having a conversation with someone, to get that con to to bring that conversation to the point where, to that dialogue to the point where it's bearing fruit, right? Where we're getting to what is the fruit in dialogue? It's understanding. It's understanding the other person. Okay? It's understanding the other person. It's not it's not the other person understanding you. It's not the other person understanding you. Although that is lovely when it happens. It is. It's so nice. But I can't make it happen. Okay, so this is it. I can't make that happen in a conversation. I can't yell at somebody to understand me. But how often, you know, do couples do I mean I You just don't understand. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. She'll never you know. She'll never understand me. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02

Never understand me.

SPEAKER_05

This is such a classic point where that is something so obvious to prune to prune back. Right. Because if we create the the kind of thing, that doesn't create the conditions for understanding. No, what actually creates the conditions for someone to understand me is for me to understand them. Yeah. And so if I can say to someone, you know, I don't understand. Can you help me understand your opinion about this? Yes. Please help me understand your opinion. And then I sit and I listen and I paraphrase. I am so much more likely, if I'm understanding them, for that to lower the emotional threat in the conversation enough that then they might be willing to understand me. It's not a guarantee. It's not a guarantee. I have tried to bring some plants back in certain yards, and I've lost I had a rose garden at one point in my in my gardening career. I killed a lot of rose bushes. I mean, this is one of the things I have out plants.

SPEAKER_01

I put them in the wrong place. Yeah. I tell people you don't have a black thumb, you have a lack thumb. You lack experience. That's all that it is. You have a plant, you kill a plant, guess what? That means you get to get another plant. Right. Um, I did this last year. Last spring I'm remembering uh for the first time I tried, I had these seed packets of different and various greens, spinach kale, all that sort of thing. And I got the seed tray and I planted the seeds and I watered the seeds and some of them sprouted, and by the end of it, probably only about 10% of them actually made anything. And even from that, how much we actually got to eat was probably about 5%. Um, but you know what? Then in the garden tower this year, a freaking kale volunteer plant that's doing amazing with so much neglect. I mean, and it's probably from one of those seeds that I had, and it I don't know how that works exactly, but all of a sudden I go out there and I go, whoa, we got a kale plant going.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. The causes and conditions were right for that kale plant. I mean, it's like the conditions had to be right. The cause was the kale plant. So if you think back to like this idea that I was talking about where Young talks about the blueprint for the psyche, the blueprint for your for who your maximum potential self can be. Maximus.

SPEAKER_00

That's like a cartoon. Maximum potential self.

SPEAKER_05

I got a turner. I know. I'm maximal potential self. Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, mask. Little oh. Uh-huh. So, oh boy, I just got totally off track now. Oh, so if you think about it like this, like if the self, if you think about, okay, if if I if the peach tree could be a representation of Kelly. Uh-huh. Okay. A peach tree is a symbol for Kelly, let's say. Then its ability to be a peach tree is what it is. Like it can't be an oak tree, it can't be a willow tree. Then we have another tree in our in our yard, which is a close second favorite of mine, which is the sweet almond tree, which I've also been working on since I've been. Oh my god, the sweet almonds have been amazing. I love that tree. It smells so good. That that is the smell of falling in love with Nissa Hangar. I love the smell of that tree. You can smell it all the way up the street. It's beautiful. And I also had to prune that thing back to stick. And there was some wailing and gnashing of teeth about that as a definite as well. But it's like if you think about your ego is the part of the psyche that is doing the pruning. It's like the ego is the kind of like the master inside of you who's able to say, okay, there's too much growth here. There's not enough here. This needs food, this needs light, this needs air. Um, I need to till the soil, I need to get rid of the pests, I need to pull the weeds. This is these are all really great metaphors for working with this with growth, I think, right? Because it's like, all right, the ego then is the gardener. The ego the ego comes in and makes the conditions right for this this really divine potential that exists within all of us to be individuated, which means it's to be our uh our unbreakable self.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

However that that occurs, however that forms, right? Yes, and and and and I can only be Kelly. Like I can't be anybody but me. And when Jung was talking about these ideas, it it was really it was I think kind of revolutionary to a degree because there was so much social conformity. You know, like what is proper behavior, what is polite behavior, what is a good career, what is a how do you fit in? What are what are all of those things? His you know, Jung was like the institutions that we used to rely on to give us direction are cr have crumbled. And so now it must come from within. And and he was like, but that's okay, because we have that potential within us, which is pretty much what the Buddha was also saying. You know, when the Buddha got enlightened, he didn't say, Okay, peace, everybody, I'm gonna just go chill into Hiti until the He was like, Wonder of wonders, uh all beings are Buddha, right? All beings are Buddha, endowed with endless wisdom and compassion. But that's our essential nature, you know.

SPEAKER_01

So it's about clearing away creating the causes and conditions so that that essential nature can come into being. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And like in a dialogue, if I clear away some of those conventions like intellectualization, people pleasing, um, per performative responses. Right? I'm good, how are you? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's gonna be great. Okay, I gotta say, I don't know if any of these particular clients are listening, but I love it when, you know, in the middle of a massage session, I'll check in and I'll say, Hey, you know, how are you doing? And occasionally somebody will say, I'm fine, how are you?

unknown

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I'm do I'm doing the job I love. I'm doing great. Yeah. Um, there's one other thing I kind of want to mention again to tie it to um this idea of creating the causes, causes and conditions, and then just allowing the thing uh what I'm hearing, yeah. It's sort of allowing the thing to do its thing. Yeah. By creating those causes and conditions. It reminds me of another favorite topic of mine, which is uh goal setting and goal planning. You should say a face I'm kidding, right now. Um But listen, like one of the best advice most people love that kind of thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it's very important.

SPEAKER_01

I get it. I get it. Well, I mean, again, it's like it's it's sort of the it's it's a n it and as far as I can see, it's another version of the pen and planting the seeds and being a karma farmer. It's just a little bit more um secular, colloquial, all that sort of a thing. Um, but one of the best advice is that I have been given, you know, when we set a goal, my goal is to, you know, make a hundred thousand dollars this year or whatever it is, or lose 20 pounds, or you know, these are like really common goals um that people that we hear a lot. Whatever the goal is, is to measure your success by your efforts and not the outcome. Measure your success by the work you're doing to create the causes and conditions for that maximum potential self to come through and not what the actual maximum potential self looks like. Your maximum potential self may be in a tutu. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_05

Like listen, as someone who took their first ballet class at 57 years old last month, uh-huh, you might not be wrong. I mean, exactly. I might be in a ballet recital with a bunch of six-year-olds in December.

SPEAKER_01

We will go and I will bring flowers and cry in the audience. Yeah. But that that has been really, really helpful. And this is a thing that I that I point my coaching clients to a lot. It's like we we wanna have we we wanna be clear, or I'll speak for myself, I wanna be clear on what the goal is because you can't get somewhere until you know where there is. Um but then when it comes I don't know what's gonna happen from the start to the finish. And the only thing that I have control over is my actions and the effort that I take. And so if it doesn't work out, but I took all the effort, it's not my fault, you know?

SPEAKER_05

Well, no, it's not, and I I think I want to add something to this that I well I think what you're talking about is commitment. Right? And so like if I'm committed to a process. To a process. If I'm committed to a process, and maybe I'm committed to a project or I'm like I'm committed to you, you know, and that that marital commitment it provides this structure so that sometimes you and I, and I mean you and I have gotten stuck in dialogue places where it's like, okay, we're not moving forward with this. Listen, we're just like any other couple, we're just like any other couple. So like we're stuck here, we're stuck here, we're stuck here. We'll be stuck, we've been stuck there. There are places right now where we're stuck. Sure. This is life. Um But committing to the process Well, that's it, honey, because I think like when that when that dialogue then comes around, it I keep making the conditions possible, and then suddenly it's like the transformation. It's like the fr it's like those little leaves were inside that bear tree the whole time. We just couldn't see them. So when I stay committed to the process, it's like patients to a degree, but I stay committed to the process. I keep working it for the sake of working it and you know, trusting, trusting it. Yeah. Um that the that little leaf was inside that stick. Yeah. Just like my ability to understand something about you that I was just being dense about because of my own defensiveness, um will suddenly become clear to me when the conditions are available for that to happen. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_01

Well, and it's like you're not like a peach tree. I want you to make a peach blossom right here. Right. I want you to grow. I want to show you exactly where I want the the the new branches to grow. No, that's too many leaves on that branch, you gotta pull it back. Right. Um, you can't do that with a peach tree. This year I want you to make exactly 47 peaches.

SPEAKER_05

No, you have to surrender to the organic nature of the peach, you know. And and the same, I think the same is true of myself. Right. I mean, it's really common and like I have had longstanding I've had the really it's such an honor to have longstanding relationships with clients. So I'll see them through many seasons of their life, you know. And you know, sometimes people will come in and they've maybe they've I'm you know known them for ten or fifteen years and they've recently just gone through a a divorce or they've gone through a a loss. And I found that what uh often happens is when people have those kinds of moments, they'll sit back and start to say, kind of what's in what's going on in my garden that needs to be cleared out?

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_05

And sometimes part of part of what I think what I personally think is kind of sad about that is that sometimes people will be like, well, what's wrong with me that this happened? What do I need to like sort of you know change about myself that this is what what happened? In other words, I think it's more about creating the causes and conditions for yourself to grow. Right. And then being patient that I'm I may not be, I may not grow in the same way that other people do. So my relationship life doesn't have to look like another person's relationship life. Right. And that's beautiful. Totally. That difference is beautiful.

SPEAKER_01

Totally. Yeah. And it is it is possible for that difference to exist within yourself, within your relationships, and for there to still be harmony. Right. So that you can be together.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I mean totally. It's like you can you can think about the dialogue in a sense as kind of like this ecological work, right? Where it's like there's soil, there's light, there's pruning, there's patience. And it creates this ecology where individuation can occur, and that that can happen also within relationship. Like, you know, that that of course individuation can happen when you're doing your own dream work or you're you're I mean it's gonna happen regardless of what you do. It is. But there are ways to cultivate it and to have a deeper and richer relationship with your individuation so that you can be awake to it to it occurring and so that you can know that it's happening.

SPEAKER_01

Something occurs to me that cultivation doesn't mean control. That's a great point. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, that's a great point. It's like real dialogue is not debate. You know, um it's kind of ecological work for the psyche, I can think about it that way. Yeah. Right. You know, my my own um older desires to promote myself, to protect myself, to to be our lady of perpetual rightness. I relate to that, you know. Yeah. Um the peach tree.

SPEAKER_01

So even so even within that, just to complete that thought, so even even within that desire to be our lady of perpetual rightness, there is maybe beyond that that that that that is something that could that parts of that could be pruned away so that something else could come to the forefront. Right, so that new growth can occur. And that is what happens in our springtime. That's what springtime represents. And why it's one of my favorite times of the year. Oh for sure.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it's beautiful to see all the little kids. I'm when I lived down in New Mexico, I would I never had really had four seasons because I've spent my whole life in Florida, right? Right. I was so struck by all the little baby things that are in the spring. It's just not as much here in Florida, but you gotta look for it. Oh man, in New Mexico, there are all these little baby birds and baby sheep, and you could hear the little baby coyotes yip yeping, and you know, there's there's just uh baby uh all the little babies. Totally, yeah, totally. Really, really sweet, really sweet energy.

SPEAKER_01

Well, listeners, um, hopefully this gives you something to think about in your own life. What you know, what's right for pruning for you right now, um, either within your psyche or within your home. You know, spring cleaning, there's a reason that that is uh archetype as well, um, or in your garden. I mean, I find the garden just like the moon to be just a wonderful teacher and provide endless metaphors for life and for living. So I hope this inspires you to cut some stuff away so you can see what's ready to grow for now. And if this has inspired you, please share it with somebody else because we want to, you know, just continue to share these ideas with other people and your lives. And of course, if you're on Apple Podcasts, please leave us a review, we'll give you a shout-out. All that helps. All of that helps. Or tag us on socials. Our tags are um in the show notes, and we'll be sure to share all of that. And until next time, um be kind to yourself and let yourself be different. Together.