#17 - Intentionality, Part 2: Feeling Good Needs No Excuse

In this second episode of our Intentionality series, Nyssa and Kelly return to the handwritten bathroom poster of Uncle Murry Landsman’s teachings to explore three more life-shaping slogans: “Everything works. Nothing works.” “Feeling good needs no excuse.” and “Anything worth doing is worth doing badly.” 

They unpack how these paradoxical ideas speak to perfectionism, decision fatigue, and the pressure to “get it right” in self‑improvement, therapy, relationships, work, and even gardening—sharing stories about planners and exercise programs, laughing in the midst of grief, and Kelly’s humbling journey learning Thai massage. 

Along the way, they explore intentional living as a uniquely human capacity, how “everything works and nothing works” disrupts the fantasy of the one perfect method, and why letting yourself feel good without guilt or justification is essential for emotional healing and resilience. 

If you’re interested in letting go of perfectionism, starting before you feel ready, and finding more space and freedom in your inner life and relationships, this conversation is for you.

Main Topics Covered:

• How “Everything works. Nothing works.” can free you from chasing the one perfect method
• Why perfectionism quietly keeps you stuck (and how to move anyway, even “badly”)
• The surprising link between intentionality, being human, and not wanting to be a “god”
• What it really means that “feeling good needs no excuse” in grief, crisis, and everyday life
• How numbing difficult emotions can also shut down your capacity for joy
• The secret life of planners, exercise programs, and self-help methods that “should” fix everything
• A real relationship moment: choosing not to stay stuck in defensiveness and resentment
• What gardening and Thai massage can teach us about being beginners again
• Why hobbies matter more when you’re willing to be bad at them
• Simple ways to “do it badly” on purpose in your relationships and personal growth

Links:

• Episode #16 - Intentionality, Part 1: Everything You’ve Done Prepared You For This Moment

Stay in Touch:

Nyssa Hanger: www.nyssahanger.com | IG: @nyssahanger

Kelly Brady: www.kellybrady.me | IG: @drkellybrady

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Welcome to Being Different Together, the podcast for people who want to make the world a better place, but no, they can't do it alone.

SPEAKER_00 0:17

I'm Dr. Kelly Brady, acupuncturist, psychotherapist, and certified dialogue therapist.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

And I'm Nissa Hanger, massage therapist, aromatherapist, coach, and real dialogue specialist.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

Together we'll explore how conversations can improve relationships, make work more joyful, and spark healing for ourselves and our communities.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

And listen, we don't shy away from the hard conversations. In fact, we welcome them. This isn't about being right.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

It's about being different together.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Well, hello. Not hello, hello. Not hello, hello. I'm letting go of the hello helloes. We're letting you go.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Hello, hello.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

At least, you know, I'll throw it out in a couple times.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Welcome to the show. This is being different.

SPEAKER_01 1:04

Together.

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Good to see everybody. Oh, we're not seeing you. I know, isn't that so funny? It's so weird. Like I imagine everybody's just in the in our living room.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I know. They're ready to have a whole audience.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

We have a whole audience right here. It's a health concert for this. Well, it's good because today's episode theme is kind of like uh I'm glad I messed up a bit at the beginning. That's the theme of the episode? Well, no, but uh the the part of the theme today is why perfection is the enemy of change.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

All right. Okay. Why perfection is the enemy of change. And um we're gonna talk about three ideas. Uh they sound pretty simple. Going back to Uncle Murray.

SPEAKER_01 1:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is a part two of a part one that was last episode's episode. So last episode's episode.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

Was episodically episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

That was episode number sixteen, and it was the beginning of our intentionality series. So our intentionality series. If you have no idea what we're talking about, please go back and listen to that. We are gonna talk, um, probably make reference to one Murray Lansman. Yeah. And you can hear our full history with him and um the these words of wisdom that he has for us.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Yeah, and uh to be clear, none of these are ever written down by Murray. He never wrote a book. So these are part of an oral, an oral and lineage. They're part of an oral transmission, actually.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

I guess they are. Now that you're a little terrible. Let's say oral tradition also now sounds dirty. I mean, geez, Louise. You know what's also weird is oral and aural. A U R is it A-L? Like hearing? Uh-huh. They sound the same. And and an oral tradition would include boo boy.

SPEAKER_02 2:46

Oh boy.

SPEAKER_01 2:49

Both oral and aural. And now I just sound like I'm I'm saying the name of that movie from 30 Rock, which we're watching now, the Rural Jurber. The Rural Jurber.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

It's so silly.

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Kelly told me before we started that we shouldn't preamble as much in the beginning, but I cannot help myself.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

So we're talking about these three ideas. They come from Uncle Murray, to be clear. These were never written down anywhere. Yeah. So Uncle Murray, like Murray Lansman existed as a real person, but he's kind of become a mythological avatar of advice. At least in our house. Yeah. He's kind of like, I mean, I want to really say he's a saint or anything like that. I don't think he was a saint from the story. Sure, he wasn't, which I think is which I think is why his teachings are so uh enjoyable for me. Sounded like he was a real person. He was a real person.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

And um Oh my gosh, we should interview my mom of her memories of him.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Yeah, for sure. I also still uh yeah, well, right.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Also, she's gonna be living in the house in a couple months, and uh maybe she'll she'll be a guest on the plumbing.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

Yeah, we got another headset. We'll get Stella in here.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

We do, just as a note, there are plumbers in the backyard. It's a Saturday, WTF. You might hear some stuff. You might hear some stuff.

SPEAKER_00 4:01

All right, so the the Kelly's keeping us on track. Briefly here. The the three the three slogans we're gonna go through today are everything works, nothing works. Feeling good needs no excuse. And anything worth doing, this is one of my favorites, is worth doing badly. That's what we're gonna end on that one? Yeah. I mean, here's the reason I like these quotes. They're not really quote, they're not like motivational. They're operational. They're operational. They're not particularly motivational because they can often be like, but they're uh they're operational. They're like uh an operating instruction. What do you mean they're operational? They help you to gauge your intentionality, they help you to point yourself in a direction. So something that motivates you is more like um encourages you to do something. Intentionality is not motivation, it's direction. And that's different.

SPEAKER_01 4:57

Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

I think it's different, you know, and I yeah. And and the thing about being human is that we're the only animals that have intentionality. Gods can't change.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

What if we did a spin-off on this show called Being Human Together? That's kind of basically what this show is about, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Kind of. Did you watch Chaos, the show with um I loved it? I mean, it was a little violent, but I mean, did you notice in that show like that the gods were incapable of changing? So this is the thing. Gods can't change themselves. Human beings, like I don't want to be a god because gods are pretty, you know, they don't seem to be really capable of self-reflection. They don't they can't see themselves. They need us to be able to see themselves.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Isn't that a big part of like Greek mythology and stuff?

SPEAKER_00 5:42

It's a big part of Greek mythology. It's you know, in the Hindu idea too, that you know, sort of like we're represent representations of God playing hide and seek with him or herself, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, totally God can't God is lonely, can't be with itself, you know, so it creates us as its appendages that are experiencing and consciousness and can be intentional about it, which other sentient beings are not or they cannot intentionally change. They can respond to training and they can respond to pot positive and negative reinforcement, you know. Like if every time Jack jumps up here on the table, I squirt him with the squirt bottle, he'll stop doing it. But I bet you, when I'm not in this house, he's on this table. Yeah sucker. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So animals don't have this capacity that we have. So intentionality is I think it's really like part of what it is to be uniquely human. Therefore, in my mind, it is also divine, since human beings are also expressions of divinity.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

So anyway.

SPEAKER_01 6:40

Okay, so when you say change, yeah, it's like changing some part of ourselves, changing our perspective, changing our outlook, changing how we behave.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

Yeah, we can decide to do something different.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

I mean changing our hair.

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Yeah, we can decide to do something different. So, you know, like if it f I think that the reason I really like what's these three slogans in this episode is that um I one of the things I know about myself is that I can approach life with a lot of tension, anxiety, and perfectionism.

SPEAKER_02 7:06

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

And um and when I can intend to be different, my life is has a lot more space. And it's not that my life has more space. I feel more spacious and relaxed inside my own life, living my own life.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

I have a I I I it so I'm reminded of yeah, and I well tell me if this is like another way of describing what I think that you're saying. It reminds me of the um comedian, poet, philosopher, public figure, Alok. Ugh. And I can't remember how to pronounce their last name. But A-L-O-K. Apparently there's a DJ with that's also named Alok. It's not Aloke, the DJ. It's Aloke, the non-binary um person.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Alok is a poet and an activist. And so and a comedian. Right? I mean, this is all the things that that a loke is bringing to the space, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:02

And one of the things that they say is uh they are a very very, in my opinion, masculine presenting person that uh adorns themselves in mini clothing that would be associated with more femininity. Yeah, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 8:17

I mean to me, he's like a swarthy-looking Indian fellow with a lot of facial hair, strong jaw, big hands, sort of a stocky body.

SPEAKER_01 8:25

But then like the best fashion, oh my OMG.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

Totally killing it in a leather mini skirt and high boots, big old, you know, gold earrings and a face full of makeup, right?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

One of the things that I remember Loke saying is that we're all wearing drag.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

That every that when we get up, and I would say this too, actually, to some of my um business coaching clients who are afraid of marketing. I'm like, when you decide what you're putting on in the morning, it's marketing. And so I feel like what to get back to what I think that you were saying, is it's like it's the difference between just putting on the clothes that you always put on and not thinking about it, not having intentionality, versus really thinking about like what is it that I want to wear today? Maybe I want to wear something different.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Yeah, yeah, right. Intentionality is how do I want to show up? How do I want to show up? You know, and um, yeah, how do I want to show up? And so, in that in the space of how do I want to show up, one of the things that Murray says is about showing up, everything works and nothing works.

SPEAKER_01 9:27

Okay. This used to confuse us. Okay. If you go back to episode one, I talked about how I would read, like when I first learned to read, I was reading these sayings, and I I would question my mom on every one. And this one, I'm like, um this the how how is this two things in this single sentence? How does this make sense? I didn't understand paradox at the time.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

You didn't understand paradox. I remember my dad teaching me, he used to say, Little girl, you can fool some of the people some of the time. Right? You remember that?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

But you can't fool all the people all the time. That's what I remember.

SPEAKER_00 10:07

Yeah. And you can fool all the people some of the time. Oh, okay. But you can't fool all the people all the people all of the time. Right. Uh-huh. So it you know, this is a like a twist on that same idea, which is that there's always a method for something and that method is gonna work for someone. But so it does work. But it might not work for me. Okay. It might work for somebody else, but it might not work for me. Um and so you know, people are like searching for the method. Right. Like if you get on if you get on Instagram right now, you don't need method, just scroll algorithmic media, and you're gonna see. I mean, I don't know, maybe it's just in my algorithm, but there are meth I mean, here's the method for how you stack your supplements, here's the method for how you're intermittently fast, here's the method for how as a post-menopausal woman, I'm supposed to manage my hormonal fluctuations, dry skin, oh my god, dark spots, you thinning hair, your joints, sleep, uh, here, get this ring, buy this thing, ba ba. No, no, totally. You know, take this new supplement. Oh, I'll tell you where it went. I decided to try berberine. You know, you gotta try some of the methods. Yeah, so this is the thing. Like everything works and nothing works. And this belief, what I want to disrupt is the belief that if if I find the right thing, it will always work.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

100%.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

It will always work. It's like somehow it's up to me to find.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

I mean I'll tell you where I've learned this in my life. Effing planners.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

Effing planners.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

Effing planners. I mean, raise your hand. If you have bought a planner that you saw advertised that you thought this is gonna be the one, this is gonna be the one that I'm gonna write in every day.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

I gotta just tell you, I've never thought about this about a planner. I I love it about you.

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Well, I know there are other people out there like me because I talk about exercise programs on video and never watch. This is true. Yes. You go, yes, yours is the exercise. I don't tend to do that as much, although I do it a little bit for sure. For sure, for sure. But yeah, the planner. And I'll tell you what, my best planner, the best planner I've ever bought that I will buy for the rest of my life is a blank notebook.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah, blank composition book. You like those.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Well, and it's like everything works and nothing works. Like any of those planners would work.

unknown 12:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

And also none of them are gonna work.

unknown 12:38

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

And even have I been using my spiral, my blank paper notebook lately? No, no, because that's just how it goes. It's like sometimes I'm gonna be not using my planner.

SPEAKER_00 12:51

Yeah, totally. I mean, okay, like in my when I was a younger therapist there was a lot of kind of encouragement to model healthy communication to clients by my own behavior, right? Okay, and so there was this emphasis on being authentic with clients. Like I like a lot of my teachers kind of uh were heavily influenced in the human potential movement. So they were influenced by Carl Rogers, they were influenced by Gregory Bateson, they were influenced by Fritz Pearls, Virginia Satir, okay, and Ram Doss. Right? Alan Watt. I mean, this is that whole group of kind of like human potential slash people. Consciousness. Consciousness, like these folks were tripping on acid, and then they went over to India. Like drugs plus Eastern philosophy. So all these ways to expand your consciousness. So there was one idea that sort of like the more direct and honest you could be with a person, the better. Right. And um, I learned that until I was direct with people and then they started shutting down. I can imagine. You know? Yes. No, I guess it's so much easier. Listen, part of the thing about being a therapist is it is really I mean, I'm I'm not I don't want to toot my own horn, but I'm going to just for a moment. It's hard. Yeah. To be able to point out to people where they're hamstringing themselves and to be able to do it in such a way that it's kind and compassionate and really coming from wanting the best for the person and etc. Um I mean, I I like to think now that I'm I'm more of like a I don't know if someone once said I'm more of like an iron fist in a velvet glove. Like I'll come through with it. Yeah. But not so much. But anyway, back to the point, like you know, that doesn't work that doesn't work all the time. Like being direct doesn't work all the time. No. Truthfully, using the real dialogue model as we've learned it, you know, from Polly Young Eisendrath, as we learned it and practiced her model, right? It doesn't work all the time. Nonviolent communication. It's not the model, it's not the model. Nonviolent communication doesn't work all the time. Nothing works all the time.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Right. And um yeah, I I I just think So that's what you see, the this idea that that everything is gonna work somewhere, but nothing is going to work everywhere. That's that's kind of part of how you see this phrase.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Yeah. Yeah, I do. And I and I think it I think it disrupts the idea that, you know, um there's a pressure to get it right.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Oh, I feel that.

SPEAKER_00 15:32

I think. And and I think that that pressure just causes unnecessary suffering. And what I witness in the culture is that the culture knows that.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

The culture knows what?

SPEAKER_00 15:44

But marketing. People in marketing know that we are pressured to get things right, that we want to faith and that we want to do better, that we care about our health, like all these things. Yes, yes, yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

Yeah, because it's always looking for problems to solve to then sell people.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

So right. So what if you let go of the pressure to get it right? And and if you did, then this leads us to the the second uh slogan, which is this. I love this one too. Feeling good needs no excuse. Now he would say this and just chuckle. And then we all understood it immediately. And we're sitting in class, he just looks up and he goes, feeling good. Needs no excuse.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Would it be in reference to something? Would it be in reference to someone, I don't know, apologizing for feeling good?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, like I'll relax when I can go on vacation. You know, when I can go on vacation, I'll relax. I deserve this because I deserve to rest right now because I did all these other things. Yeah. Um I I or how I thought this was really interesting. When um when I was living through my former my late wife Heather's cancer diagnosis, and we would be, you know, in the hospital room. Um it could just and it could be really dark, like what was going on. Like she's going through medical procedures that are painful and scary. She doesn't feel good physically with the overall prognosis. Yeah, I mean it's these institutions can have a layer kind of of just um despair, yeah. I would say um fear, futility, maybe even horror, which is like what I was witnessing happen to her was awful, and there's just nothing I could do about it. You know, we would still laugh. Yeah. In the midst of all of that, we would still laugh.

SPEAKER_01 17:49

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

So I and I think that some of that for me was informed by what I learned from Murray early in my life, which is that it's really okay to feel good. Like, and you don't need any reason to. You don't need to justify, like, and it's okay, it's safe. But I think that uh there's another element of this which is clinical for some people. It's like if you are repressing emotions because you have a history of trauma and you're repressing negative emotions. The opposite could also be true that you could be repressing that you you you lose the top end also. So it's like if you're repressing the negative, if you're repressing the low notes, you're also gonna repress the high. I mean, does that make sense? Like if you're pressing it.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah, no, I think I'm I'm remembering, I believe that Brene Brown is that's part of her teachings. Yes, over there. Since I have, you know, studied her work. Um, but I am just remembering I'm like, what part of her work was this? Was this related to the vulnerability piece, like allowing yourself to be vulnerable? But yeah, no, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's in this idea of numbing. She would say that when you numb when you can't you can't selectively numb, is what she would say.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

You can't selectively numb.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

So when you're numbing the low notes, you're also numbing the high notes.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Right. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So the reframe, I think, is like that feeling good does not have to be a reward. Uh it's a state that your system can access and you you don't need to justify it.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Um I'll tell you what I think about with this as an adult. I'm trying to remember as a kid, as a kid, again, this was one that baffled me because as a kid, I mean, I was feeling good a lot of the time. I mean, I definitely had my, you know, whatever, and especially the older I got, and the closer to too. But you know, like, yeah, I'm riding my bike to my friend's house and we're doing our projects and blah, blah, blah. I mean, the whole day was like, can I, you know, just feel good? But I think it helped prepare me for later. I think about um something that I witnessed when and I I see this other places, but it just it happened one session after another after another after we got hit by those hurricanes uh a couple years ago. And it's like people felt I guess it is um survivor's guilt. Yes. Like people whose homes weren't terribly affected and they were like moving on with their lives, meanwhile, their neighbor is having to, you know, redo half of their house because a tree fell on it or you know, whatever. And I I would experience I would sense that they weren't they they felt good, but then they felt bad that they felt good. Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

It's like if I let myself feel good, I'm letting something go I should be holding on to. And that's a place where I think people get stuck in grief. Like what you're talking about is like getting stuck in grief, for example. Like if I let myself feel good, then I'm letting go of something I should be holding on to. There's like this unconscious belief that holding on to it is gonna bring the thing back, holding on to it is gonna make the thing change. Like, for example, if if you if if let's say this never happens in our relationship, but let's say, for example, you get irritated because I have I never get irritated at your behaviors.

SPEAKER_01 21:11

No. No, you're talking about somebody else.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Okay, let's talk about somebody else who gets irritated with somebody else's behavior, let's say. You know, Ozzy and Harriet.

SPEAKER_01 21:19

Oh, you mean uh oh maybe maybe I get irritated at the the measuring spoons always ending up in a place not where the other ones are.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

Correct. You could make a decision to stay irritated about that all day.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

I can, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

You know, yeah and it's and you'd be holding on to it because somehow you think it's important to hold on to it. Like somehow you think if you feel good, then that changes the fact that you don't like the fact that where I put the measuring spoons. So then you see what I mean? It it it becomes this this place where you have an unconscious idea that feeling bad is actually getting you what you want. And this is this is where in relationship. Relationship, I see people really get stuck, right? It's like you're irritated with your partner, you're hurt by your partner, XYZ, you tell the partner that. But then, okay, I'm just gonna hang on to this for I don't know, the next seven years.

SPEAKER_01 22:11

I think that's called uh I think that I think that leads to resentment.

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Yeah, I'm gonna tell I'm gonna hang on to it, and then I'm gonna telegraph to you that I don't like your behavior and it upsets me.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

And then we get to play that same, we get to have that dance with one another.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

Dude, uh, this happened to me yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

You remember yesterday morning? Yesterday morning. Tell me more, honey. There yesterday morning. We had an interaction. I'd have to really think about what the details of it were. Um, but I got defensive and then you responded to that, like, hey, why are you getting defensive? And I was like, Well, hey, I feel like I've been criticized, and we there was not a whole lot of it wasn't any sort of big blowout, number one. Okay. Right. And there was not time to repair because I literally had to leave for work. And so we still said goodbye and everything. Um, and then I left and I was like, oh, I still feel like some of this emotional residue. And I totally made the decision to just move on with my fucking day. Hell yeah. I totally made the decision to move on with my fucking day, and I was like, you know what? That's it. Who knows what's going on with her? Like, I'm sure there was not any sort of intentional, you know, it's like I could feel myself teasing the idea of like being a victim in there, and I'm like, girl, you know that that's not what's going on here, right? Like, people just have their own things, she's not attacking you, you know what I mean? Like, there's nothing terribly wrong here. This is normal stuff. Yeah. Like it's okay for you to feel the things that you felt, and it's okay for her to feel that, and for everybody to express it. And I moved on, and I was really proud of myself, I will say. Because I could like see it happening and yeah, and then I just let myself feel good about other things.

SPEAKER_00 23:57

Which I appreciated very much about the rest of the day. Because I Yeah, I'm curious about your experience. Well, I I mean I I don't even I don't know that I could even go back to to yesterday while I'm trying to think about this all clearly. I appreciate what you shared about it. I I think what it where it leads my mind more so is not to yesterday, but it leads me way, way back in my relational history, which is like you know, I could get angry with a friend in in middle school or high school and then like not talk to that person. So this is the kind of stuff that like leads this could lead to estrangement, right? I think if I cut off from you or I'm aggressive with you, one of the two, both are aggressive, by the way. Yeah. Cutting off is passive aggressive. Yes. Okay, so you know, either way, that that sort of sense that, okay, if I can't control you, I'll be upset, then I'll get aggressive. Either aggressive, aggressive, passive, aggressive, I'll either withdraw or I'll attack. But I'll keep I'll just keep feeling like eh, you know. When I it's not necessary. I you know, like it continues the emotional. Like I don't need it, I don't need an excuse to feel good. Like if I don't like what you're doing, that's okay. I can just like let that happen. So I think that And then still feel good. Yeah, totally. And I think at this point in the lecture, Murray probably would have started it, would have said something like that, you know, that thing like, I'm okay, you're okay. You know, like that whole thing. Like if we meet along the path and we and we vibe, then great. And if we don't, so be it. Like it's all okay. Yeah. Like that was this part of the human potential movement that I really loved. It gave me a lot of space and freedom in my relationships. I think it continues to because what it says is it's okay for things not to be perfect. The relationship doesn't have to be perfect. Who I'm dealing with can do things that irritate me, and I can still feel good. Yeah. It's amazing. It's great. Yeah, it's it's great, it's great. It just makes this kind of space. So then this goes into the third. Yes, let's do let's do the third one. This one of my all-time favorites. Ready? I can't remember what anything worth doing is worth doing badly.

SPEAKER_01 25:56

Oh, I know, I know. Which it follows up feeling good needs no excuse. Yes. I remember I would just read these and I'm like, okay, feeling good needs no excuse. I would literally, like, I mean, probably at least once a week growing up. I would read every single one of these. So good. And really, and try to be like, okay, all right, okay, that makes sense. And like, you know, anyone that like didn't make sense, I said, go ask my mom, what does this mean? And so, yeah, feeling good needs no excuse. Okay, great, yeah, I'll feel good. And then anything worth doing. Okay, listen, y'all. I'm an Enneagram three, which I did not know when I was younger, but I'm sure I presented as one. And threes are the achiever. I want to do good. I want to do good. I want to make it good. Anything worth doing is worth doing badly. Oh, the permission slips. Oh, the permission slips. Yeah. That's kind of I almost feel like for me, that's the motto of this podcast. Oh, that's great. The motto of this freaking podcast. I would have if I wasn't in the state that I was when we started this, if I if it was years ago, I would have really perfectionatized the hell out of this thing. Right. And I don't think it would be as good.

SPEAKER_00 27:11

Yeah, well, perfectionism blocks entry. Like it blocks you m moving into some sort of action in your life that could be meaningful, right? It becomes this reason to stay stay stuck. So if you wait until you feel ready, or you wait until you feel confident, or you wait until you do it right, you're just gonna wait.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Mm-hmm. 100% and be stuck. Yeah, you'll never be ready.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

You're gonna wait and be stuck. Start before you're freaking ready. You're never gonna be ready. And um the reality that uh the things that matter most uh well to me what matters most are my relationships. My specifically my relationship my relationships are what matter most to me. And then um my creative work and growth, those are things that matter the most to me. They're messy. They're all messy. They're all messy. They're messy. Yes. They're messy. Um so thinking about the idea that if I do something badly, it's not a failure, it's ac it's access. It's like it's like I think I don't know if it was Marie that taught me this or somebody else along the way, but that learning that failure is part of learning.

SPEAKER_01 28:26

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

I think as a kid, you know, the way that I grew up in American school, and I don't know if this was your experience, but I felt a sense that when I got a good grade or I got a bad grade, that it was really a statement about me.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

Oh, yeah. And yeah, there's an identification. There was an identification that was sort of like oh well.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

It was not like, oh, hey, honey, you got a D plus on this algebra 2 test. And what that means is you're not getting it. Right that's okay. Right, right. Let's sit down and go through this until you get it. Yeah. Maybe if we just teach it more slowly or you feel less anxious. Yeah, what are you not getting? You know, you know, it's what do you need to get this? Math is a perfect example of this for me because I actually have a very high aptitude for math. I mean, I've been tested, right? And my aptitude is extremely high, but my ability to perform math is not. Right. And I think that has to do with perfectionism. I'm afraid to make that mistake. And when I was a kid and I was afraid to make that mistake because I didn't want the bad grade, it started a cycle of me actually getting bad grades in math. Right. Because I would cre I would have that anxiety around it, and that would prevent my frontal lobes from working. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when I'm relaxed, I can understand it. I can often solve a math problem without even working it out. I can just look at it and solve it. I don't know why that is. It's that's aptitude. You know, it's just straight aptitude.

SPEAKER_01 29:45

So Well, and the thing with math, as opposed to, I don't know, English or maybe science or like what are the other things, history. There's a exact right answer. Yes. With math. Yes. There's really not any gray area unless we're looking at like how you got to that answer, and there's a couple different ways to get there or something. But it's like there is a wrong and a right answer, and it's very clear and it's logical, and so then to not get that, I don't know. It just feels like it's a it's a sharp knife that cuts.

SPEAKER_00 30:19

Well, right. It's like if you're not willing to do it badly, you're you're actually not willing to do it. And I think that that's what happened with me about math. I it just at a certain point I was not willing to do it badly, so much so that when I got to whatever I got to in high school, I just stopped even trying. And doubled down in other subjects so that I could do better on the college entries exams to be able to get in. I just was like, I just sort of washed my hands of it because I wasn't willing to do it badly. Right. Right. I I wasn't willing to do it badly. And I think that um anything worth doing is worth doing badly because in the beginning you're gonna be a beginner. Yes. So what what helped me with this, I remember specifically, was that Murray said to me, We were we were in this class and he would come in and he would say one of the slogans and then we would all talk about it. And um I was in the process of you know trying to give somebody feedback about it, and I said, you know, I'm just kind of stuck with with what to say right now. And Murray looked at me and he said, It's okay to be a beginner. He said, Give yourself permission to be a beginner. Anything worth doing is worth doing badly.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

If you're gonna start something, you're not gonna I'll tell you where the where this is really coming up for me when I'm like, okay, where is this coming up for me right now? Is I have been working in the garden. And I think I've talked about that on some of these other podcasts, especially with this construction that's happening. And there are certain projects that I'm doing back there that I have never done before. And sometimes I'm like, I don't even know if this is gonna work. If I put these things like this in this pot with this soil, is it gonna work? Do they like each other? You know, do they want to be planted closer, farther? And I'm just like doing it because what's the worst that happens? They don't grow? Right. And and going back to the episode about the peach tree in springtime, like I'll just get more plants, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:17

Wait, have you looked at the peach tree lately?

SPEAKER_01 32:19

I have looked at it.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

Oh my god, I've seen all the peaches on the tree.

SPEAKER_01 32:22

There we got a lot of peaches. I need to go sneak some water to it because we're not supposed to be watering plants right now, but I want to make sure it stays hydrated. Don't tell the city of Tampa. I'll do it at night.

SPEAKER_00 32:33

I love what you're talking about about the garden and and experimenting and like giving yourself the freedom.

SPEAKER_01 32:37

I mean, the garden do that. The garden and plants have been one of my ultimate teachers. I mean, I know I talk about the moon is my forever teacher, but it it is the same with freaking plants and gardening and just what happens over time. And you know, like uh a couple weeks ago, you had gotten the the seed these wildflower seed packets from Amazon. I don't it I don't even know what's in it.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

I think they might have been f uh like um the rocks that you put in the bottom of a fish tank.

SPEAKER_01 33:05

Oh, because I don't know. Yeah, because okay, the seeds had these like very brightly colored, they look like stones. I mean small stones. I'm like, what even did they put this in here to increase the weight or whatever? But um they're growing. And I just threw them, I didn't even think about it.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

I just threw them in a pot and I'm like, sealed with an alien virus or something.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah, or or or more likely that they're invasive species. That's my fear. This is how Amazon's gonna take over my backyard, too. Actually, that's an interesting short story. Um my gosh. I mean So yeah, anything worth doing is worth doing badly. So what were the other what what were the other or did anything else you want to say about that?

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Well, I started Thai massage in 2017 because I knew I was gonna be bad at it.

SPEAKER_01 33:57

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 33:58

And it was one of the best things I've ever done in my life.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Oh my god, listener.

SPEAKER_00 34:02

It was one of the best things I've ever done in my life. I I knew I was gonna be bad at it. I didn't go into it with some very strong yoga practice. I didn't, I didn't go into it, you know, no, I wasn't I'm not a trained massage therapist. The way I was trained in massage is very different than the training than the training massage therapists get. And so time massage, you're down on the floor, you're in yoga positions, you're moving your body around, you're moving the other person's body around. I am not super mechanically intelligent. I sometimes I can't tell my left from my right. Like I have a little dyslexia spatially. I can read like a mother, but I cannot like sometimes I just don't know where my left is. You and I have talked about this. Yeah, what this thing where you put your hand up and you look at it. Which one is the uppercase? I know, it all just looks like an infinity sign to me, dude. It just looks I don't get it. So Thai massage was super hard for me. And I was uh as opposed to when I was in graduate school, I was always the top person in my class. Right. I really didn't have to study a lot, I grasped these concepts very quickly, blah blah, you know, whatever. Wonder kid, like that kind of thing. Pro So annoying, really. But anyway, I go to I go to Thai massage school and I'm like the worst student in the class. The oldest and the worst. It was great, it was so good for me.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

So this is an idea of like, can you go out there and do something?

SPEAKER_00 35:14

I think it took me that to be bad at it took me really three full sessions of time uh three full like going through all the classes three times until I really incorporated it into my body. It took me that long. I made wonderful friends though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I learned so much about the process, and now I get to share that with other people, and I'm so much more embodied. So I think you can challenge yourself. Like, what is something that you want to do that you that you just don't think you're gonna be good at? Try it. Go out and do it anyway.

SPEAKER_01 35:41

And if you're bad at it, it's still worth doing.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

It's still worth doing. Someone told me one time that a hobby is something you enjoy that you do badly. Love that. And I I do too, because it just like takes the pressure off. Like, if you want to do stained glass, you don't have to go sell it at the art festival. Right, exactly. You know, you don't have to become an Instagram influencer if you like meditating.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

You know, you you it's just like, yeah, I'm starting to get three yourself up.

SPEAKER_01 36:09

Like one of the things that I don't understand with gardening is soil. I was talking to somebody about this yesterday. It's like the, you know, the different types of soil and how they work together. And yeah, I think that I'm about at the point where I'm like, all right, well, let me just learn a little bit more about it and mess up a couple times. Use the wrong soil, use the wrong fertilizer, yada yada yada.

SPEAKER_00 36:35

Yeah, and how about just like intentionally to bring it back to the relational stuffness, like if listener, if if you're like in a situation in your relationship where you feel like things are stuck, just do something different and let it be bad. Like I'm not sure. I've definitely messed up in our relationship so many times. Go ahead and make the mess. Everything works, nothing works. Yes. Right? 100%. I mean, you don't you don't know where it's where it's gonna work. So i it these all go together in that way that I just think is it like it it it's okay to feel good while you're messing it up.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

You know, some of the time things are gonna work, some of the time things are not gonna work. Don't let perfection don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, right? Uh particularly in your relationships. I I would say that that that this that this lesson has been the most important for me and in in the laboratory that for me is conscious relationship. Helps me the most to get out of my uh perfectionism um around you know, growing my consciousness by being close to people. Definitely. Yeah. So there we go. We got through all of that, baby cakes. We got through all of that, baby cakes. Well, and um, listener, please uh, you know, it would mean a lot to me if you would make sure that you subscribe to the podcast. Definitely please subscribe. Uh please go ahead and subscribe.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

If you thought of someone that you were like, OMG, they have to hear this, just share it with them.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Yep, and uh, you know, send us any questions or comments that you have. We love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

Yes. Because we're gonna need stuff to talk about before we finish this intentionality series. Heck yeah. So more episodes coming your way, and thank you for listening, and we will um talk to you more next time. I'm trying to say something other than we'll see you next time. Peace