Being Different Together

#19 - Intentionality, Part 4: Your Reality is as Good as Anyone Else’s

• Nyssa Hanger • Episode 19

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In this episode of Being Different Together, Kelly and Nyssa continue their intentionality mini-series by unpacking two powerful Murray Landsman sayings: “Be nice to yourself” and “Your reality is as good as anybody else’s.” 

They explore how negative self-talk, shame, and “autoimmune emotions” can impact your mental and physical health, and what it really means to be kinder to yourself without slipping into avoidance or indulgence. 

They also dive into subjective reality in relationships—why so many arguments become battles over “who’s right,” how to handle conflict and hard conversations, and how tools like real dialogue and paraphrasing can lower emotional threat and help you truly understand someone you disagree with (about anything from daily annoyances to politics and the pandemic). 

If you’ve ever wondered how to stop being mean to yourself, communicate more intentionally, or stay connected when realities collide, this conversation is for you.

Main Topics Covered:

  • How “be nice to yourself” can quietly transform harsh inner criticism and negative self-talk
  • Why being mean to yourself is like having an “autoimmune emotional problem”
  • The surprising difference between mindfulness and intentionality (and why it matters)
  • Everyday examples of choosing how you want to show up vs. living on autopilot
  • What “your reality is as good as anybody else’s” really means in relationships
  • How fights turn into battles over “who wins reality” (and how to step out of that trap)
  • The hidden emotional threat behind “How could you believe that?” in political and pandemic debates
  • A simple real dialog tool—paraphrasing—that can instantly cool down conflict
  • Ways subjectivity and curiosity can create a bridge between very different worldviews

Links:



Stay in Touch:

Nyssa Hanger: www.nyssahanger.com | IG: @nyssahanger

Kelly Brady: www.kellybrady.me | IG: @drkellybrady

SPEAKER_03

Welcome to Being Different Together, the podcast for people who want to make the world a better place, but no, they can't do it alone.

SPEAKER_01

I'm Dr. Kelly Brady, acupuncturist, psychotherapist, and certified dialogue therapist.

SPEAKER_03

And I'm Nissa Hanger, massage therapist, aromatherapist, coach, and real dialogue specialist.

SPEAKER_01

Together we'll explore how conversations can improve relationships, make work more joyful, and spark healing for ourselves and our communities.

SPEAKER_03

And listen, we don't shy away from the hard conversations. In fact, we welcome them.

SPEAKER_01

This isn't about being right. It's about being different together.

SPEAKER_03

Hello and welcome to another episode of Being Different. Together. Do you are you okay that you say the together part and I say the being different part? Yeah. Should we do it different some other time?

SPEAKER_01

No. Okay. Although I don't care.

SPEAKER_03

Sometimes you're like, together.

SPEAKER_01

I like to play around with it. I think in the last episode we recorded, I'm the one that said being different, and you said together.

SPEAKER_03

Well, you know, we gotta do it different sometimes when we're together.

SPEAKER_01

So we return to our discussions about intentionality. Yes. Episode number 19. This is part, I think this is part four. We're just keeping on going. Oh yeah, we're gonna get through the the whole list of of uh Murray Lansman's intentionality slogans.

SPEAKER_03

And um loving the feedback that we're getting from y'all so far.

SPEAKER_01

Um, that's why we're continuing with it, right? Because we're hearing people. Yeah, people were like this. Yeah. No, but you're getting the opposite. You're getting like, we love it, we can't wait for the next one.

SPEAKER_03

Keep it going. I think somebody whose name may begin with a W and end with a S said, Some of these cut me real deep. Yeah, and I've heard from people, I think it's reaching people that um hadn't heard to the of the podcast or heard the podcast. Nice.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you know what I what I love about it is intentionality is like low-hanging psychological fruit. It's not super complex to like understand it. Um and it's practical, and it's one of those things too that I like uh that is a practice. Intentional I think of intentionality as a practice. So, you know, it's like the further, the further the the longer you do it. It's like the thing with practice. Roshi used to say.

SPEAKER_03

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01

And if it's the more you do it, the farther out, it's like the farther out you go, the deeper it gets. Practice is kind of like it's like being on a boat that's going out to sea. The farther out you go, the deeper it gets. And so I think with an intentionality practice, you've really been practicing these slogans your whole life because you learned them when you were just a little baby.

SPEAKER_03

I just thought this was how the world was. I mean I thought you had a s you had a poster with with sayings in your bathroom and you read them, and that's how you learned about the world.

SPEAKER_01

I mean Well, I had a book of dirty jokes.

SPEAKER_03

Hey, listen, we had Sears catalogs in there too.

SPEAKER_01

So Vanessa, I loved a joke book when I was a little like a book of jokes. And especially like at one point I had like a book of like dirty limericks. Oh boy. There once was a man from Nentucket.

SPEAKER_02

I know that one.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah. Yeah, I used to get joke books from the library when I was a kid. I mean, a joke book was like you know what I also got from the library and I loved, I checked out every single Ripley's Believe It or Not book. Oh, you like that book? Oh, I love I loved those. I mean, I loved anything that that was like the world is more than what you think that it is. Like I loved the ghost stories, the UFOs, the unsolved mysteries.

SPEAKER_01

Totally.

SPEAKER_03

I don't know. Somehow all that is, and then the Ripley's Believe It or Not is like, oh, this actually happened. It isn't just like some weird show about things that may have happened, but we don't know.

SPEAKER_01

Have you ever been to one of the Ripley's Believe It or Not museums? No. I've been to two of them.

SPEAKER_03

How were they?

SPEAKER_01

Well, you could believe it. Is what I'm gonna say. And somehow I believed that. Everything in the museums there you could believe.

SPEAKER_03

You're like, wow, someone grew their fingernails.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but I mean, it's I mean I yeah, I I brought brought, you know, kids there. Yeah, totally. And it was, you know, kind of funny. I think I would do that over a wax museum. Well, wax museums are just fucking scary. Scary. Why also do they always put they like to put Elvis and the Beatles? They like to put Elvis and Gandhi next to each other. Also like a big tall Elvis and then a tiny little Gandhi in a robe. Wow. In his towel. Wow. Yeah. Wow. It's it's okay. So intentionality digress. Intentionality.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, our intentionality with this episode is to So if you were to sum it up, how are you currently just relating to the word itself, intentionality? Well, here's the funny thing. I think we talked about this in the last episode. And just by the way, listener, if you're like, what are they even talking about? Please go back and start at episode number 16 because that's where we introduce this um mini-series that we're doing. I honestly I I didn't even have a mini series. That's great. What do you think? It's a miniseries. It is a miniseries. I mean, I don't know, it might go on for a while depending on how long we uh talk about.

SPEAKER_01

Back in the days of Network TV when it and when I used to watch it. The miniseries.

SPEAKER_03

Oh my god, you know what mini series I The Langaliers. Do you remember this mini-series? No, it was like based on a Stephen King book, but it was like not a movie, I wouldn't have watched it. But not a season. Oh, that's right. You don't like those sorts of things. I'm scared enough. Oh, the dude's like ripping the paper. Don't scare me now. It's one of those things, you know, don't scream. It's a perverse impulse thing. I know, no, I know. It's people people listeners. Do you do this in your relationships where when you know a thing bothers your significant other who who you love? You love deeply and you want them to have a lovely and comfortable life, but man, you want to do the thing that we should do a perverse impulse um episode sometime. Okay, okay. So the word of intentionality, how are you currently relating to it? Yeah, that was me um that was me sidetracking, um, stalling. That was me st what is this dog doing over there? Oh my god. Oh my god. I don't know if you can hear this, but there is a very strange sound happening on the other side of the room. I'm just gonna I'm just gonna let it go. Oh no, Kelly don't like that. Kelly says to Oh boy. Okay, going back, intentionality. I'm still stalling. Because here's the thing is I feel like I never re it never really sunk into me. Because the thing is with this poster, it doesn't say these are the sayings of intentionality. I didn't even know that that was what this was. It wasn't until later that it was explained to me that there was this class called intentionality. It says it at the very bottom in a little tiny print print.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So I never really thought much about the word intentionality, and I've thought a lot about intentions. Right? Yep. Um, but but having an intentionality, it's honestly something that I'm like formulating right now.

SPEAKER_01

So you don't know. You're not sure. So you don't know.

SPEAKER_03

I mean, I'm learning all around the bed. Yeah, basically that was a that was a long-winded answer to say, I don't know. All right.

SPEAKER_01

You're not sure. I'm not sure. Okay. Would you like to know what I think? Of course. I think intentionality is the ability to choose how I want to show up for fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_03

Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. How you want to show up. How I want to show up. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that is what we have control over, right? We don't we don't have control over what shows up for us in the world. Maybe. Oh.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, technically we You mean going back to like the seeds and stuff? Yeah, well, and also sort of the operator's manual on the universe is that we do tend to see what we expect to see. True. Therefore, what shows up is also related to our own expectations. Yeah, so this idea of intentionality being how I want to show up. And that stands, I think, I don't really know if it stands in opposition, but it stands in sharp relief is that's a cool way of saying it. Um to being on autopilot in life.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, I can t now that you put it that way, I can totally see how intentionality is sort of the opposite of being an autopilot, right? Right. Yeah. Right. Right. Like actually thinking about how I want to show up. And actually, it makes me think about um bringing it down to the micro scale. Like, like, I totally think about how I want to show up to my client. You know, or if I'm like going to a wedding with my friend, my good friend. Like I I'm thinking about how I want to show up for their wedding. But when it's like, how do I want to how do I want to show up at the grocery store? You know, how do I want to show up when I go out to check my mail and maybe I see a neighbor? You know, like all how do I want to show up at the sink when I wash the dishes? Yeah. I'm not always thinking about those things, but I do see how this collection of sayings it doesn't exclude any it it it includes all of those scenarios.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Right. Right. So mindfulness and intentionality are not the same thing. Um right. Mindfulness is comes from Buddhism. It's this idea that we can pay attention in in a way. Right? We can give our open attention, like if and it's not just broad-based mindfulness. The idea behind mindfulness is that we're mindful about something. So I want to be mindful, like let's say I'm doing a mindfulness practice and I'm I'm gonna say I'm gonna be mindful of my breath. And then I sit and I pay attention to my breath. I feel the in-breath, I feel the out breath. I notice my thoughts coming, and and instead of engaging with my thoughts, I go back to the experience of paying attention to my in-breath and my outbreath. And in the same way, I could be mindful about eating. I could chew each bite of food thirty times. I could think about the sun that shined on the ground that had the apple seed in it, that made the apple that I made, you know. I could think about how it got picked, how it was in a truck in a factory somewhere, and then came to the probably where I picked it up at the public. Like all the people who were involved in this apple, like that, that could be a part of it the experience of having an apple, right? So that's mindfulness. So mindfulness is one way to show up, by the way. Um and I think I I I'm growing to appreciate this list that Murray gave us as m multiple ways to consider showing up differently. Like I think that these I think that a lot of the slogans as I'm being with them now, as opposed to where I was with them 30 years ago, is that I'm thinking about what they say, but then I'm thinking about that there's a subtly contradicting an autopilot position. For example, the first one on our list today is um oh, I was trying to think. I have to look. I have to look. The first one on our list today is be nice to yourself. Okay, so this is add this to your list of slogans, right? Be nice to yourself. Well, it's like when I hear that, the first thing that I think is well, maybe I'm not nice to myself. How am I not nice to myself? How am I mean to myself? Am I mean to myself? Are you mean to yourself? Oh, 100% definitely. Like, how does that show up for you? Oh I mean, just wanting low, low-hanging fruit. I mean, just don't you don't have to go deep for the listener.

SPEAKER_03

You can just I mean, just you just your run-of-the-mill negative self-talk.

SPEAKER_01

Run-of-the-mill negative self-talk.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Yeah, like here's the thing that that I've been working with. I don't know what or why, and I seem to be the only one that has a problem with this, both the actual problem and the problem with me. Um at the office that we share with a few other practitioners. I am I am in a long, epic battle with the doors and the alarm system. Yeah. I have left that building and then set off the alarm multiple times, and no one else does this, and I don't know why it happens to me. But I'll end up being like, you're the problem child. That's what I start telling myself that I'm the piercing. Yeah, that I'm the problem child.

SPEAKER_01

Like fall into the category of like, if you make a mistake, you could be mean to yourself.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, that's like my number. Like, I'm yeah. Okay. I have worked I have worked very very hard within myself and in therapy to not just automatically do that, make that the autopilot. Right. Um But yeah, no, can be really mean to myself if I make a mistake. You make a mistake? Somebody else makes a mistake? I'm like, it's cool, dude. Like we all do that stuff, but I mean talking to myself like that. No, no, no way. Right. Sometimes. Right. Sometimes I I can I can find the grace, but I gotta dig. Yeah. I gotta dig for that grace.

SPEAKER_01

You know, the thing about this slogan, I think, is that it kind of trips me up a bit is that um I have I have developed in the last couple of years a dislike of the word nice. Um, you know, because I think that there's a part of like, just be nice. Oh, totally. Why can't you be nice? Totally. Do you remember in the 90s? You know, just be nice. Well, stop oppressing me into delivering this to you in a way that's palatable for you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I can under, you know, and I get it. Like, I don't want to be verbally abusive to people or attack them or blame them. I want to be able to speak subjectively and humbly. I want to be able to be humble with people so that I'm not coming across like I know everything, that which raises emotional threat, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_01

So, you know, but I also think that there's like this uh it's like niceity almost. It's like kind of a form of craziness that goes along with where people are just like overly permissive with themselves. Well, I'm being nice to myself. So I'm just gonna let my self-care Sunday. I just think it becomes maybe indulgent, maybe too permissive. It it it's like I do think that there's a fine.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's like when do you push yourself and when do you let yourself off the hook? And I that is definitely something I struggle with.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but uh it so anyway, uh this is just like kind of a personal thing with me about the the word nice, but I I think if I bring it back before my recent argument with that word. And this is kind of like the way my mind is. Like I'll pick a word sometimes for a couple years and I just mull it around. I'm just working with it. Like I'm working with that word. Yeah. Uh it's just the way my mind is the way my mind operates.

SPEAKER_03

Would it be different for you if it was be kind to yourself? Yeah, it might be. It might be.

SPEAKER_01

There's something with the word nice. That's like it's almost too permissive or something. But anyway, if I translate it into my language, I'm taking a seriously. It's like if I have that harsh or mean self-talk, if I'm making things harder on myself, um, then I set up this internal polarization where then it's like I'm fighting I'm fighting myself. I'm polarized within myself between the attacker and the defender. Like there's this part of me that's like and then there's another part of me that's like, but you don't understand. And it's like that polarization.

SPEAKER_03

So anyway, the practical move is you know, replacing some of that judgment maybe with observation or um what what is what is that condition called when your immune system attacks itself?

SPEAKER_01

Like an autoimmune problem.

SPEAKER_03

An autoimmune problem. It's like an autoimmune emotional problem.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Being mean to yourself. And then yeah, I mean, you know, not to say that like when you're harder or making it harsher.

SPEAKER_03

And and I mean, as a body worker, I'm also then now thinking, oh my gosh, what does that do? What is that doing to my the health of my body? You know, on a cellular level. If I'm if I am at odds with myself mentally, yeah. Um from you know, even just the little bit that we do know through psychoneuroimmunology, you know, which is a fairly new science, but there is some compelling information out there regarding how our thoughts and our emotions and how we talk to ourselves affect our, you know, bodies. But I'm imagining that there's some effect there too. Right. And then it can just be like a it that that is a downward spiral.

SPEAKER_01

It's hard to tell with some of this research because correlation, causation, how things tend to show up with with one another. But some of the themes that I've read in that literature are like about when people people who have autoimmune stuff also tend to have like um a bigger and and and a higher reported sense of shame about themselves. Oh, that would entirely make sense. What's the operator there? It's hard to say.

SPEAKER_03

Um but there's definitely some correlation, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there is.

SPEAKER_03

And you know, you're not gonna completely heal everything by just you know, speaking nice to yourself. Right.

SPEAKER_01

So if you're if you have rheumatoid arthritis, if you're just nice to yourself, I'm not implying that you're gonna cure it. Exactly. And that's how this kind of thinking gets just like so reductionistic.

SPEAKER_03

But I do see that mistake that um it's an interesting metaphor, I think, for the what we're talking about. For me, to me, it's an interesting metaphor. Um you know the other association I have with nice. Remember like an elementary school where you had to make a would it be an anagram of your name? And you had to take your name and you write it long ways, and then you have to figure out and then it's supposed to be like things about you or whatever. So so and N was always nice.

SPEAKER_01

N was always nice.

SPEAKER_03

And then Y was always young.

SPEAKER_01

Y was always young. That's funny. You know, there are not a lot of adjectives that start with K.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, what would yours have been? Killer. Machine gun Kelly.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, killer, kangaroo, klepto, um clepto, kinky.

SPEAKER_03

You were writing that in elementary school. I got this from my dirty jokes book. But anyways, and and you know, and then I have all these associations of like, you know, like my feminist understanding of like, oh, girls have to be nice and blah, blah, blah. And so then I'm like, screw that, and stands for naughty. This is the evolution of my name anagram through elementary to middle school.

SPEAKER_01

The nice and the naughty. It's interesting. The mind just goes to that place.

SPEAKER_03

It's but then I have those associations with my name. So there's like this identity thing too that comes up for me with nice. This is nice.

SPEAKER_01

I know. Nice Nissa. I remember when we first started dating. Um, well, just for the listener's sake, I'm a bit taller than you are. Okay. And so I remember when we first star Started dating. No, it doesn't translate when we're gonna podcast. I could be the taller one. Yeah. I mean, I guess in our little thumbnail you can kind of see it. Yeah, totally. Because I'm standing behind you. But I I think I was standing in front of you and I was we I was holding you and we were kissing, and I looked down at your face, and you were smile, you're just smiling at me, smiling. And I said to you, I know I said to you, how can you just smile all the time when you look at me? How d how like to how is that happening? And you said to me something like this, well it's the 30 years of training and people pleasing.

SPEAKER_03

You were like, whoa, whoa. Yep. Sounds like something my smart ass would say.

SPEAKER_01

Well, here's something to think about, right? Just um just this week, you know. It's like one thing you could do to to in you know, sort of be with your intentionality around this is think of think of something this this week. Like what's one sentence that you say to yourself this week? Just notice it that you would never say to someone you love. So that this is one of these this is one of these slogans that's a real sleeper because uh it's like are you gonna show up with yourself the same how are you gonna be with yourself?

SPEAKER_03

Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's really simple. And can you know, I mean, practice long term results can be profound. Oh my god. I mean, I can just, you know, even though I I have not gotten rid of that negative self-talk, man, I I I found the volume dial on it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And have learned to turn it down a little bit, and it has really helped. Really, really helped. Yeah. What's our anything else you want to say about that?

SPEAKER_01

No, no, no. The next the next slogan that from from Uncle Marie on the list here is uh your reality is as good as anybody else's.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, yeah. This is a good one.

SPEAKER_01

Your reality is as good as anybody else's.

SPEAKER_03

So Again, I'm like a kid. I'm like, mom, what does this mean?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, can you remember?

SPEAKER_03

I think that it was the beginning of me realizing that my reality is not the only reality. Which honestly, I mean, looking back Wow, it's like the end of narcissism for you. Yeah, I mean, I completely eliminated it. I mean No, it's it has been long gone. It it drained down the bathtub when I was five years old. You're the best at not being narcissistic. I am the best. I know. Absolutely. Yeah. It's really all about me. Yeah. Um, but I do, I do, I, you know, again, uh, are these actual memories or not? But I I can I can imagine a moment being younger and realizing, oh wait, there are other people experiencing things and that their experience may not be what I'm experiencing. And in fact, I have not cornered the market on the the true valid experience. Mine is as good as anyone else's. Um, which honestly, I think really laid the found work laid the groundwork. The found the found work. That's the foundation groundwork.

SPEAKER_01

Totally. I followed you.

SPEAKER_03

Of learning real dialogue.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_03

Totally. I mean, when we first did that training and she, Polly starts talking about subjectivity, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, subjectivity. Like I hadn't really thought about what that meant, and that that I am having a subjective reality, and that other people are having subjective realities, and that that and that they are all valid. And that they're all valid. And that they're all valid. Right. Even when I'm like, how can you freaking believe like whatever it is? Um, but I do think now that I reread this this sentence, um I can see how that that planted a seed.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

And I thought in religious studies, um, when I was in college studying religious studies, we talked a lot about the the objective study. There was a lot of talk about objectivity and subject and subjectivity. You know, objectivity in comparison to subjectivity, and that in the academic study of religion, you know, scholars were were trained to work really hard to remain objective, to not be looking at a religion, especially if it's outside of your your um tradition or you know, what you practice, to not have your own religion be like, this is the right religion, and all these other ways. I don't feel like I'm explaining it super. To not maybe to not be biased.

SPEAKER_01

Like against learning about other religions because you had your own like and love for the religion that that you were brought up in.

SPEAKER_03

And we had a lot of there were a lot of early scholars of religion that basically used the study of religion to promote Christi Christianity. Right. Um, in in particular, um, because of course it was the best.

SPEAKER_01

Well in their university system was uh uh came from the church.

SPEAKER_03

Right, right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

You can't separate them. Yeah. So I was historically, right? I mean, it was the church that founded the early universities, and so there was always religious education and university education, and it was Christian.

SPEAKER_03

Definitely.

SPEAKER_01

Except for like at at uh Naropa, not not Naropa, what was the name? What was the name of the no that that's a p that's the one in Colorado? There was a there was an eighth century there was an equivalent. I'll look it up while you're talking. There was a Buddhist equivalent, Nalanda.

SPEAKER_03

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

And this was uh you know, eighth eighth century and before that that there was this large university in India where their people were getting their degrees in Buddhism, you know, their PhDs. But if you think about it, those countries, they were they were again, it was it was like it was the monastics who could read.

SPEAKER_03

And you know, when you are devoting your life to a tradition, I mean, I think that there is some value in continuing to believe that that is what's right and that's what's right for you. And then if part of the tradition is about um converting other people, you know, then there's that part. So anyways, these are my associations.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, had the they had the time to be able to read. They were plowing the fields and you know, also they're et cetera. So they were learning the scripture to be able it in in all areas, you know. I mean, I think these are commonalities. Yeah. Anyway.

SPEAKER_03

So yeah, I spent a lot of time thinking about objectivity, and then uh we can do we can go further in another episode, but then I was like, I wanted to study religion because I thought it was really interesting for me, for my own spirituality. And then I was like, what am I doing here? I'm not supposed to be using the study of religion to deepen my own spirituality. But then I was like, Well, how could I not? I'm having a subjective experience. Yeah. And so I actually wrote a couple papers around like why the study of religion, why we need to honor our own subjective experience, especially after taking classes in women's studies, which was very um had a lot of emphasis on the subjective experience, like autoethnographies and things like that. Um so, anyways, these are my associations with subjective and objective and reality and well, I mean, I was sitting here thinking that I think all kind of all unhealthy fights.

SPEAKER_01

Like when when when conflict just becomes unhealthy and it moves into the realm of a fight. Yeah. Generally, the fight seems to me to be a fight about who's going to win reality.

SPEAKER_03

Ooh, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_01

It's like, no, my reality is the reality.

SPEAKER_03

You did say blah blah blah.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, I remember I remember you saying You suck. Or whatever. You know, you did look at her at the party. I saw you. I saw you. But it it is this, like, I mean, does that make it resonates, right?

SPEAKER_03

It resonates with me. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Fight becomes what do we want to win? Well, we want to win that our version of reality is reality. And guess what?

unknown

It's not.

SPEAKER_03

No, no, it's not. It really isn't. It really isn't.

SPEAKER_01

I mean, there is a reality, an ultimate reality. There is.

SPEAKER_03

That's what we call it in religion. Yeah, like ultimate reality.

SPEAKER_01

You know, undivided love, maybe. But there are all of these subjective experiences of that reality, and they all have their own humanity. They all have their own humanity. Like, I don't know, you know, I remember during the pandemic when it just seemed like there was so much more, like so much of the polarization that is it it seems like it still kind of was fomented during that time when people were just stuck at home, yeah, thinking about who they disagreed with. Afraid about it on Facebook. And arguing about it on Facebook, you know, do you get vaccinated? Do you not? If you do get vaccinated, if you don't get vaccinated, you're trying to kill my grandmother. Yep, yep. If you do get vaccinated, you're trying to, you know, invade my healthy sperm. And you you know, you're gonna you're gonna link me with some kind of spike protein that's gonna be transmitted to another person sexually. I mean, just the stuff, just if we just even explore the debate about vaccination and what was going on. Yeah, right. And the fights, man, that that people were having during that time.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like my reality is the reality. And then we were and then what happened for me was I started learning about so about some opinions that that some of my friends had that I didn't know that they had. And then my reality, in other words, my subjective experience about that person needed to catch up with the fact that they thought that. Sure. You know, and and and and in that and in that thing about wanting to to win reality, uh, this is when the this is when the the specter of moral superiority creeps in. Oh and we start saying things like how could you believe that?

SPEAKER_03

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. How could you believe that? And you know what's interesting about that question? You know, don't you read the science? It's it's not actually a question. It's not.

SPEAKER_01

It's an expression of disgust.

SPEAKER_03

It really is.

SPEAKER_01

It's a full on expression of disgust. And it is not intended to ask. It's not. Oh, how does this make sense to you? Please explain it to me. Help me understand. I'm really curious about your opinion about vaccination. Tell me more about it. Yeah. Oh, really? Oh, well, that's your understanding of the data. Oh, okay. All right. Well, that's your under that's their understanding of the data. Now I might have a different understanding of data that I have seen based on my own experience.

SPEAKER_02

And it's also valid. It's as valid as their understanding.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, and this is it, your reality is as good as anybody else's.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

So, does that mean that Hitler's reality was good?

SPEAKER_03

Okay, well, uh something being as good as anyone else's is not the same as, in my opinion, it's not the same as asking, is this objectively good?

SPEAKER_01

Good. I like where we're going now.

SPEAKER_03

Right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, we're getting a little more Socratic with it. Let's go deeper.

SPEAKER_03

It's Hitler's reality. This is a really weird sentence to say. It also it just kind of irks me, but I'm just gonna say it for the sake of example and education. Yes. My understanding of this statement, assuming this statement from Murray's reality is true.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

Is saying that Hitler's reality is as good as my reality. Yes. Or yours, or yours, dear listeners. I'm so sorry to bring you into this. But it um I can only assume, now we don't have Hitler to ask, right? But I can only assume that his reality made sense to him. Sorry.

unknown

Couldn't couldn't.

SPEAKER_03

She loves to do she loves to do this. One time we were going, we we had to leave like really early in the morning before the sun came up, and we were driving. We were trying to figure out where we were going or something, and then yeah, we're in the car, it's super dark. Somehow there's a flashlight. We have to we're looking at Simon for his flashlight, and then she shines the the flashlight on me and says, Val me going, Val me going.

SPEAKER_01

I kid, I kid that I kid the German people look. I mean, I don't even know why I came up with that example because it it's so controversial. Like, even comedians don't like to talk about the Holocaust.

SPEAKER_03

You have to have a lot of you have to be Sarah Silverman, basically. You know, you know, yeah, totally. Totally, totally. But it it does prove a point. And well, okay, let's just take it a little bit f further. Yeah. Um conceivably, Hitler convinced a bunch of other people that his reality is actually better than their reality and that they need to jump on board with him. You know what I mean? Yes. So there's also that that happens.

SPEAKER_01

So here's the thing I think that's really important to recognize about Hitler and to recognize about people. Okay. And and I I can't remember, I'm getting ready to kind of to give a little quote by Uncle Carl Jung, another one of my favorite mythological avatars who gives me advice all day long in my mind. And after the catastrophe In your reality. Yes. And after the catastrophe, Jung takes up kind of an al an analysis of Hitler. Okay. And one of his main points, as I recall it, in this analysis, is that Hitler was suffering from telling himself a fundamental lie. Okay. And he told himself that lie so convincingly that then he was able to convince others of the truth of the lie.

SPEAKER_03

Right. Right, right, right, right, right, right, right. And I think that that happens even today with people in power. I think it's a possibility. And I think the pandemic is a great example of that. I mean, we all live, no matter where you land on these subjects, I I think that you you probably can find correlations. Um there is one thing I want to say about this statement about your reality as is as good as anybody else's. Well, let me say two things. One is I like that it is saying that your reality is as good as anybody else's. It's not downputting my reality. It's not saying my reality isn't as good as anybody else's, but it's also not promoting my reality. It's not saying my reality is better. Nobody's is better or worse. Everybody's is what it is for themselves. So I want to share that. And then I also want to share, I think I've said it before, but I think that it bears repeating. Since we did the dialogue therapy training, and I became a little bit more attuned to the nuances of subjectivity within language, I do really think that it has helped our relationship and helped stop the conflicts. And not entirely. Listen, not entirely. We're both still humans and we both still got our stuff, as far as I can see, right? So this isn't like a miracle, miracle cure. A miracle. A miracure. That is gonna be the name of a new drug, I'm sure. Um, don't take miracle if you're allergic to miracure.

SPEAKER_01

Miracure may cause anxiety, depression, foaming at the mouth, and pooping your pants at the kitchen table.

SPEAKER_03

So sit on the couch all of the time.

SPEAKER_01

That's what this is my favorite in those commercials when they say, don't take miracle if you're allergic to miracure. Oh my goodness. How am I gonna know I'm allergic to something until I take it? Unless it's comprised of elements of something I know I'm allergic to. Well, there's if I'm allergic to penicillin, I know if I take a moxicillin, I'm gonna have an allergic reaction. Right, right, right, right. If I'm allergic to aspirin, I'm gonna react to Tylenol. This is how I Okay. Sorry.

SPEAKER_03

Digress. We digress. Anyways, I just want to say that being aware of the subjectivity in my own language, yeah, and being at least most of the time aware that my reality actually isn't better than your reality. Yeah, it it has oh, it has put the brakes for me on making things worse.

SPEAKER_01

Totally. And yes, thank you. And at least some of the time. Yes, and here's why Hitler was wrong. Okay. Okay. Yes, Hitler's reality, he could have that opinion. But where he was wrong was that he was taking his reality and trying to force it onto other people. So implicit in this slogan, your reality is as good as anybody else's.

SPEAKER_02

Don't be an asshole.

SPEAKER_01

There isn't anybody else in in the quote. Right. It doesn't say your reality is the best and only reality and your subjectivity is the one and it doesn't matter. No. What it says is there are other people who also have a reality. And I can bet that the people who died in the concentration camp disagreed with Hitler's idea of the ultimate reality.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Right.

SPEAKER_01

You know. I mean, I think more people were killed in World War II. I don't know the statistic, but it's like horrifying the amount of people that were killed in that war.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's mind-boggling.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's mind-boggling. And so that piece right there, like where so this could be an intentionality challenge. Intentionality challenge. Intentionality challenge. Intentionality challenge. Where are you insisting your version is the version? Right? Where are you insisting that in your life? And honestly, like, how how is that hamstringing you? When you're insisting that your version is the version, like doesn't it kind of hamstring you? So it's like what you were talking about in terms of your own opening up more and more in deeper and deeper ways. Like the more you practice it, the deeper it gets. Yeah. Your understanding of subjectivity and and and how your own subjectivity and how much freedom that's given you within within relationship. It's ironic, isn't it? It's like by really understanding my own reality, right? My own reality, I have so much more freedom in my relationship with other people. Because I'm I'm I can see that this is my landscape. This is this is me, and I'm not forcing it out on anybody else. Like their reality is as good as mine. This is why Hitler was wrong. Sure. Okay. Sure, sure, sure. And I don't want to like collapse into relativism with my Hitler comment. I mean, I really asked that to to be provocative and um yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, and and I'm thinking about it in and I'm also imagining, yeah, maybe some people that would be listening to this and they would go, okay, but yeah, uh well, what if I come in here and I say, I disagree with this quote or I disagree with this saying, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Their reality is as valid too. Sure. Right. Um, but then I'm also thinking about it gets interesting. I don't think it's impossible, but it does get interesting when we start talking about things like policy change or climate change or things that that choices that we make collectively as humans, whether through force or through not force or whatever, um that are based on, and maybe that's why these things are so difficult, why it takes forever for a freaking bill to get past to lower emissions or build more public transportation or you know, whatever whatever the things are that we want to change. Um yeah, it just gets really kind of interesting when we're thinking about it gets interesting to me.

SPEAKER_01

Well, it's like you would think we we might need a tool sometimes to help us to just be able to talk to one another.

SPEAKER_03

That would be so helpful.

SPEAKER_01

And that's what real dialogue facilitators do. True.

SPEAKER_02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01

That's incredible. That's why we need people who can facilitate dialogue when emotional threat gets really high. Like so. So I think what to to I mean, I had a couple of answers to your question. Yeah. You know, like why do why do things get stalled in the government? Well, it's multifactorial. There are so many reasons. I mean, first of all, it it it's like the lobbies and the way that I mean in our government because a lobbyist's reality is their reality, right? Right, and there's and there's this idea that we're, you know, maybe the senator is sitting in between wanting to do what is better for for the senator's constituents or whatever you whatever you call them, population, or people people that the senator represents, maybe they want to be able to do that, but they know that if they do it in exactly the way that they're getting pressure from the people to do it, that they won't be reelected because they won't have the money to run.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_01

Now, all of these things raise emotional. threat. Right. Because when we get into this, like either or black or white thinking or our personal um health and well-being is involved, then then we're going to start to get into that area where we're going to have these really we're going to be coming from our emotional centers. Right. And we're we're much more likely in in periods of emotional threat to stop the ability to actually listen for the sake of understanding. And what happens then is we just start screaming at each other. We're promoting, promoting, promoting um our agenda. Totally I mean look, I I can get hooked into watching um clips on on say TikTok, for example, um that are just clips of AOC just humiliating someone that she's on that's there to testify. And the person's clearly full of crap, right? And she's brutal. I mean that my experience is brutal is probably not the right word. I really respect you AOC and anytime you want to come on the podcast, you're welcome. I don't know that I agree with all the policy decisions. I'm not talking about that. Some of them I do but I think more so it's like she's oh and there's a part of me that's like I want to watch the fight. Yeah. So then there's another element where the fighting is incentivized because it's driving ratings. Totally. Now we have these news organizations. I'm on a rant now. Okay. I'm just on a fucking rant. Okay. Here I go. Let's do it. And we have these news organizations that are, you know, pay every time you click so that it's all this rage baiting.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01

You know, all this rage baiting in the media. So I think that there's a lot that goes into why people are not making a lot of decisions. Sure. Getting a lot you know of movement in the government.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. There. I've said my people to France. Yeah. So the final the final saying that we have I think will bring out tie this up with a bow, which is um the recommendation, the final slogan is to view the past in a friendly way. We might not be able to take this all up this this one up completely in this episode. I am not sure.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah we might just push that to the the next the next episode if that sounds good to you because we're pointing towards the next time we will we will push view the past in a friendly way. It is useful to view the past in a friendly way. I think that is the is it uh it is useful to to view the past so listener dear listener we'll let you just ponder on that for the next week or so.

SPEAKER_01

Well then you decide to view the past specifically that if you're not nice to yourself you just kind you distort your reality. Oh that is true. And if you distort your reality like Hitler you impose it on others. Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well I think even I mean I I agree with you that the when you're not nice to yourself, when you're mean to yourself, yeah there is some sort of distortion of reality that's happening. Um but I would say that I think whether our reality is distorted or whether my reality is distorted or not, I gotta really watch myself from imposing it on others. Yeah. I think I think because it it's just part of being in a subjective experience of being a human. I mean I think I really take for granted how much I'm probably going around with this sort of underlying belief that other people are experiencing the world the way I am.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah you know it's like they're not looking at me. I mean I want to I know I I know but I think that they all are well I I had this conversation with Polly Young Eisendrath about this recently where I was talking about one of the ongoing parts where where I struggle in conflict is that I can I can have a tendency to be a bit of a bit hotheaded meaning I'm I'm passionate you know and that can that can that can tip oh I mean I'm a passionate person. Totally I and and that can tip over into into being angry it can tip over into you know getting like kind of super intense at times. I would agree with that yeah and I would agree with that I would agree with that and I was saying to her I don't know how much zazen I'm gonna have to practice in order to make some progress with with this part of me like how I how I show up in conflict in other words when someone's reality is different and it's pushing against mine and I'm wanting to exert my own and I can feel myself you know um escalating. Yeah getting revved up like the horses are like it's all starting you know what I mean she was like Polly said this great thing to me she said um you know as much as I've ever practiced I haven't found it's helped with that she said it really helps me with that and she's a longtime practitioner like I am and she's a bit older than me so she's got even more years of practice you know on her on her odometer she said the thing that helps her the most and what she recommended to me was she said you know in those moments the best thing you can do is work on your paraphrasing. Ooh and it was such clear and good advice that I feel compelled to to pass it on. You know that in that moment where realities are crashing together yeah um to be to be able to step back and to say to the person I'm in I'm in it with okay okay help me understand yeah and then be able to repeat back oh so this is what you're saying. I understand you to be saying this am I getting it no I'm not okay let's try it again. I I understand that you're saying this am I am I getting it no there's more okay tell me more and just really like sitting in that and putting the focus on the paraphrase it's that's that's what I'm working on. Part of what I'm working on.

SPEAKER_03

I love that so if I'm understanding you yeah um in you know what Polly has advised for you is that in those moments when you feel things getting revved up and you're having to hold your horses and um yeah and that and that the tendency is to want to promote yourself. Yeah um the best way to sort of like cut that off at the knees if you will is to is to lean into the paraphrasing which is a way of connecting to what the other person's saying. And it maybe I I'm wondering does it feel you know maybe counterintuitive because the the the desire the impulse is to promote yourself right and then by paraphrasing correct you know when when we're truly paraphrasing we're we're really we're not adding our own thoughts right beyond how we understand what the other person is saying.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah really it's like it actually starts promoting the other person.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah tell me more about that which then lowers the horses and then lowers the emotional threat because yeah in the times that you've been like oh okay let me help me understand um what I'm understanding that you're experiencing is this then I don't feel like I have to fight to be heard. I'm actually being heard.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah and I'm I'm curious because you know if if I love you then that's a spiritual practice of showing up with you know it's a continued commitment to being curious about your experience whether it's an experience that I'm expecting from you or that I think I want or that I don't want or that experience might be different than my own reality but our realities are yeah it's that commitment that our realities that your reality is just as good as mine and my reality is just as good as yours totally it's okay for you to stand in the dark without the kitchen light on yeah I find it just fine I I prefer it and even though I can come in and be lighted to my food.

SPEAKER_03

Babe can we turn on some lights?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah totally we can totally turn on some lights to call back because I think in the last episode we were talking about just that difference of it'll be like turn off the overhead light um right in the bed like something about that overhead light like you can get ahead or something and you don't like it.

SPEAKER_03

No no no I don't like that that light or even the hallway light but now that I'm on the other side of the bed I don't see the hallway light so that's good. Yeah I think that it starts to build not that we're gonna have the same reality but I feel like it creates a bridge in our realities to go to sort of do a a throw throwback or a reference to Heidi Schleifer's TED talk. Yes. Which maybe I'll link in the show notes about like crossing crossing the bridge.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah over into the other person's subjectivity. Yeah yeah as best as you can that's beautiful yeah that's an it's an intentionality it's like how do I want to show up for this life you know how do I want to show up for this life well well I just want to say thank thank you for all you listeners who showed up for this episode. Yes please like this episode you know share it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah listen it all of that really really helps us um reach more people which if this has meant something to you if this has helped you with your day or helped shift some perspective for you um that's a really great way to help us and it costs zero dollars so that's great you know we don't have any sort of uh Patreon at this time or any other you know we're we're funding this on our own dollar because we want to and I think it's fun at least it's fun for me but um by sharing and liking and subscribing and of course if you're on Apple Podcasts please leave us a review or get your friend's Apple phone and leave us a review find the podcast app in there um all of that really helps because it helps more people find our podcast and I don't know one by one we can help people create some more intentionality in their lives. Yep sounds great well we will see you next time everyone thanks for listening