3 Marriages and 3 Divorces Later, Mother and Daughter Discuss Their Feelings Around Relationships

In this episode of Between Mothers and Daughters, Patti and Kamaria get candid on how their feeling about relationships, and the experiences from their pasts that shaped those feelings. Patti shares stories and lessons from her three marriages and Kamaria gives insight about staying confident in a relationship. Leading with love and honesty, both ladies challenge each other's thinking and revisit their pasts to make sense of the present. 

Follow the host on social media Patti @taskyourself & Kamaria @kamarialeyla and the podcast page @betweenmothersanddaughters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome back to Between Mothers and Daughters because if you can't tell your mother, who can you tell? We are streaming on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon, and you might just be watching us here on YouTube. Please, wherever you're listening to us, go ahead and give us a subscribe. We are going hard this year, and we have more episodes planned. Lots of good stuff. Absolutely. Absolutely. So today we have Love on the Bra. I don't, but keep going. As you can already tell, we have very opposing viewpoints on this topic. So just to first by start by disclosing our relationship status, I am in a relationship. I have a boyfriend. And I am happily single.

SPEAKER_00 0:39

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

How long have you been single now? Actually, I actually I really don't know that.

SPEAKER_00 0:44

What, four or five years? I've been in New York, what, three?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:49

So at least four then.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yeah, because you were in DC before New York. Yeah. And for the audience who may not know, you've been married.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

I've been married three different times. I don't often say that, but I've been married three different times.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Yeah. Why do why do you feel like you don't often share that? Uh because it seems like then am I the problem?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

No, I'm just joking.

unknown 1:12

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 1:13

Maybe. Um and you know what? Because it doesn't feel relevant unless I have time to tell you the entire story. So we'll we'll unpack that today. How about that?

SPEAKER_01 1:23

Okay. And three different marriages. And what what was the longest? Do you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Probably your father for okay. I left him when you were two. We didn't get divorced until you were seven. My last marriage, I was married two years. I've never lived with a man in a household for longer than two years.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

A man that you were married to?

SPEAKER_00 1:49

Any man. My dad. Oh, my dad, sure. Yes. Have you ever lived with a man at all?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

No. Except like a stepdad.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:57

Yeah. Okay. Nope. I have never partnered with a partner, and it's something I am open to. I'm actually very curious about that. And how old are you?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

I am 32 years old. And I am 59. I'll be 60 by the time you see this, probably.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Yes, yes. So yeah, I've never lived with a boyfriend. Um, but I do think that I'm getting to the age where I'm like, okay, now or never, I need to, I need to know if I can cohabitat. But for me, it's all about space. We need to have enough space.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

So, and and I'm probably jumping subjects and getting somewhere too quickly, but do you are you comfortable living with someone before marriage?

SPEAKER_01 2:33

Yeah, I am. I actually think I need the test drive because I've never done it before. And I think that that will actually tell me a lot about how we will be as husband and wife. Um and I'm saying husband and wife, and I'm speaking directly about men because both me and my mom exclusively date men.

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Correct. So I will say this. And in in coming up, you know, and because there's a couple ways you can do the relationship things, right? My way, your way, God's way, that whole thing, right? And I don't think that I ever test drove any of my marriages. I didn't live with them before I married them.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Not your dad, not uh not husband number two, which we're only gonna refer to as husband number two, and not husband number three, which we're only gonna refer to as husband number three.

SPEAKER_01 3:19

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:21

So I've never I didn't live with the men before I married them. And I think that uh, and now if if I were giving you advice, unfortunately, I mean I know what the Bible says, and I am, you know, Christian, but I would definitely tell anyone, especially my daughter, please have sex before you get married, and please live with them before you get married. I listen, listen, listen. I I you know what, and I have done it God's way with no sex before marriage and no living with a person before marriage. And I found that to be even more challenging than the other way.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

And in your three marriages, did they did you move in with them or did they move in with you?

SPEAKER_00 4:01

Okay, let's think of, let's break that down. Let me think. Okay, so your dad. Yeah, I met him, we were engaged, we got married. Did you guys get a place together? I think he moved into my space, and then we got a place together. I can't recall really. Okay, so that one's question mark because he might have a whole different story. Correct. You know what? Marriage number two, he moved into my space. I do recall that. Marriage number three, I moved into his space.

SPEAKER_01 4:35

Okay. And do you think there's a difference between a man moving into your house and you moving into a man's house is one of one or the other more beneficial?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

I think it depends on the if your relationship is healthy or not.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

I do think it probably depends on that. But I'm gonna tell you right now, I I and maybe it's a fantasy, but I would rather either us get a place together or me move in with you. I think that me being not unnecessarily a control freak, but it would be harder for me to share a space that was mine before.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

So listen, I I do remember with husband number two. We're trying to I need to unpack these for you all in one second, okay? But I do remember with husband number two when um I was ready for him to leave, all I could hear was to the left, to the left, you know, Beyoncé.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

Yeah, because in your mind.

SPEAKER_00 5:19

Everything you own in the box to the left, get on out of here.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

Yeah, and I think for there to be like a true even setting ground, like you know, the an even space where it's fair between both parties, it should either be a place we got together, or I come into your home and you make space for me because also I do have a lot of opinions on design. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Okay, so let me unpack the the three marriages right quick because this is important. So when I met Kamaria's dad, I was 27. Um, I met him at a work, he had just come in from a Pebo Bryson concert or something, and I was the hostess somewhere at a five-star dining restaurant in Atlanta. Him and his friends and his cousin had come in for dinner. That's how we met. He said, You want to go to Alvin Ailey? I was like, Oh, he's got culture, la la la la. Yes, I like him. We dated, we dated, I think, six, maybe eight months before we started wedding planning, and probably were married within the year. Um, by the time we got married, I think I was two or three months pregnant. Kamaria did the math when she was like 12 or 14. She was like, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Always been a journalist.

SPEAKER_00 6:25

Investigative journalist. Um so um, and then I I realized I didn't like it. I didn't like it. And you know, and not to Philip and I, I I talked to him yesterday, the day before yesterday, I talked to him all the time. Um and if you've listened to any of the other podcasts, when we do family things, when we take family trips for Christmas andor Thanksgiving, Philip is there this Christmas. Um, if you see a video of me, he's there. Uh, because he is part of our family. He is Kamaria's dad, and it's a non-negotiable. But so then I just think I was like, oh, I don't think I like it. I don't think I like it. And then I didn't, I don't think I knew enough about him or myself to honestly be married. So that's one, right?

SPEAKER_03 7:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Just went in blind, had no relationship advice, had no relationship tips. Someone said, Will you marry me? And my mother was like, girl, like, yeah, it's that time. It's you're 27, 28, you're about to be an old hen, get married, you know. Boom, done. Two years later, I'm like, yeah, it's not for me. So then for the the entirety of Kamaria's at-home time, I decided, you know, me being a single parent. Um, this also changed my workflow because she didn't ask for this, so then I was very driven to give her all the things that I had growing up as a child to make sure she didn't lag for anything because I wanted her experiences to mirror mine because I had had some positive experiences. Um, but I think somewhere when you were, I don't know, middle high school, husband number two, a man I met in church. Kamari and I were in church two, three, four times a week, even, right? All day, every day, especially on Sunday, sunup to sundown church. Um, I raised her in the church and I met a man, and he was like, you know what? And you know, he court date all the things the Christian way, you know. Very upstanding, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. I'm like, okay, God, I've done it my way. I'm gonna try it your way, God. You know, and I felt like I knew myself better, and you know, yada yada yada. I didn't feel like he was a threat to my daughter and my household because that was a non-negotiable for me. Um, and I was like, let's do it. And I don't even remember how long that one was, maybe six months, maybe eight. It was almost annulled, okay? Let's just put it that way. And if you know the reasons it can be annulled, it was annulled. So that wasn't even divorce. But um, so that was husband number two, wonderful guy. I wish him well. Okay, husband number three. I think this is a man that I started dating, right? Because, you know, you couldn't come to my house, you couldn't be in my house. I didn't have men in my house over my daughter. I wasn't actively dating, I wasn't actively pursuing dating. Okay, so this third husband had been actively pursuing me. Kamari may have been a junior or senior in high school. But I was like, mm-mm, you know living in here, you can't blah, blah, blah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I'm gonna tell you a long story short. That man was married. I didn't know it, right? Um, he actually came to my parents' house with me, and my mother said, this is a time of pagers, okay? And so she's whispering to me, I need to talk to you as I'm leaving out the door. We were living in Atlanta, she was living in Jackson, Mississippi. And I'm like, what? Tell me now. She was like, I can't tell you now. So she um says, as soon as you get a moment to yourself, call me. So he went into the gas station to pay for gas. I called her girl, like, girl, what's going on? What's wrong? And she said, Um, call me when you get it home. I want you to be home first. So when I got home, I said, What, Mama, what? She said, You know that's a married man, right? I said, Who? She said, That man you had in here with, this is before I married him. That man you had in here with you, I said, Mama, why do you think that man is married? She was like, Because he only asked questions about you. Every time I tried to have get a question in edgewise, he wouldn't let, he didn't want to talk about himself, right? He only wants to talk about random things. And she said, that is the first sign of a married man. And I was like, nah, because you know, and I'm recounting the times and, you know, blah, blah, blah, and da-da-da-da. And she was like, He's never spent the night. I'm like, no, but he couldn't spend the night and I wouldn't spend the night with him, you know. She was just like, just trust me on this one, right? So we go to dinner, um, and then we are in a booth, and he corners me into this booth, and I'm like, wow, why don't you sit on that side? He was like, Oh, I want to sit next to you, it's more romantic. I'm like, he's a big guy. I'm like, okay, anywho. And so I just look at him, I say, Are you married? He said, What's wrong with you? Why would you think I'm married? I said, My mother says you're married. She said, Why would your mother say that? And so I recount all the situations or the storytelling that she tells me to say, we know you're married.

SPEAKER_02 11:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

And he's like, I'm not married. I said, Well, whatever it is, my mama said it, and I don't want no more of it. I'm done, right? So then I don't know if it was later that night or maybe the next day, after trying to hold me hostage, he says, Okay, I am married. I said, but why wouldn't you tell me that? He said, Because if I had told you, you wouldn't have. And I'm like, but that's so deceptive. Like, why are you taking all of my decisions away from me, right? So anyway, that we're done with that man. We have nothing to do with that man. We moved to Chicago, you know, like it's over.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

I'm at work one day and I hear someone say, I my I'm in charge of the front desk staff at the YMCA on this shift. And uh I hear one of the staff say, Can I help you, sir? And he says, No, I'm actually looking for her. My back is facing to him, right? And I turn around, I'm like, it's the man, right? So this goes on for about 10 years of me.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

It was not 10 years.

SPEAKER_00 12:01

Kamaria, from the time you were before you left high school, it was until after you graduated from Howard.

SPEAKER_01 12:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

Okay. All right, get your dates correct. You were in how you were sophomore in Howard at this time. So like six years. What what year did you graduate from high school?

SPEAKER_01 12:21

2011.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

So it would have started in 2009 to 2017.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

I graduated from Howard in 2015.

SPEAKER_00 12:30

Oh, 15. So 2013.

SPEAKER_01 12:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:33

2009 to 13.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Six years.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Okay, six years. Man asking me to marry him. Now I know that he's single and blah, blah, blah. Follow me all around the country from Atlanta to Chicago to whatever, right? So I say, you know what? Okay, God, because still my conversations are with God. I'm gonna do it. And what I'm going to do is I don't, and I don't feel like I've ever loved anyone unconditionally. And so I said, let me try loving someone unconditionally and being the best person I know how to be, the best Christian I know how to be, the best wife I know how to be, to just look because one of the things he would say to me is, I want you to love me unconditionally. I'm like, what does that sound like? He was like, like you love Kamaria. I said, Explain. He said, There's nothing Kamaria could do to make you say, I'm going to get rid of her. I said, You are absolutely right. He said, I want to be that same person. And I thought to myself, me love a man like that? And I was like, you know what? I'll try.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

And you know, and so I tried. Like, and I said to myself, and I said to me, I said to myself and God, God, now I'm no fool. I will pour all that I have of me into a man for two years. Can you put a car in my name? My better sense saying no, because I've signed off on this pledge. Yes, yes, um, love, I certainly will. You know, so at the um so I marry him. And at the end of two, at the end of 90 days of being married, the light switch, extreme narcissist is an overused word, yada yada, yada, yada. And so I say, this is three months into being married. I spend the next year and nine months being all the things I know how to be to a complete narcissist who is tearing my life apart. But I'm prayerful, I'm strong, I'm willful, I am edifying myself. He leaves the house, I go stand in the mirror and talk to myself and tell myself all the things that I know to be true about me, right? And then when Kamaria says, Listen, I'm moving out of, okay, so if you've listened to another podcast, you've heard me say, she came to visit me one day and she said, Listen, I came back here looking for uh Patty Roberts. If you see my mother, let her know I came looking for her, yada yada yada. I don't know who you are, I don't know why you live like this, I don't know. This is not the woman who raised me, yada yada yada. And in my head, I'm thinking, I got two years. I'm not sharing this with her, I'm not sharing it with my sister, I'm not sharing it with anyone, because if it's something I've committed to, I just need to see it through. At the end of two years, uh, he went on a trip, he went away, and I had already been planning secretly. We lived in a house together, I had moved into his house. A lot of my stuff was in storage because I had my own house and it was too my own dwelling, and it was too much to combine the both. So a lot of my things when I moved back to Atlanta um were in storage. And if you're watching this, darling, this is how I got out, okay? So now you'll know. But um I began to take things to the storage that he wouldn't know was missing. Like I had my all my clothes in a different bedroom. He didn't go in that closet, so he wouldn't miss the clothes out of there. I had a beautiful picnic basket on top of the refrigerator. I couldn't get that because he would notice if the picnic basket. I had art on the walls. I couldn't get that because he would notice if the art were gone, right? So one weekend he goes out of town. But listen, there is more than enough stuff besides his narcissistic behavior to make me not want to be involved in this relationship. I have video proof, text message proof, computer proof. That's a whole nother story. Anywho, um, he c he goes out of town, I go get a U-Haul, put everything from storage in there, take a couple of the things out of the place and out of the house and put into storage. Because I'm I'm I'm slipping away in the middle of the night.

SPEAKER_01 16:18

And as you were doing that, I think you finally told me you were done with it. And I was the one who proposed, well, why don't you come to DC and you can stay on my lease since I'm leaving my apartment and moving to Sacramento?

SPEAKER_00 16:34

So mm-hmm, because part of the story was, and how I had planned to leave, was you needed help moving. And I kept telling him you needed help moving. And towards the end, he was like, you know what? Yeah, you can't go by yourself. I'm gonna go with you. And so as soon as he said, I'm going out of town this weekend, he said, but next weekend when I come back, I'm going to I'll drive you to DC. And I was like, Oh, I won't be able to get away. So it it just the plan switched overnight. Kamaria was moving to Sacramento to for work. Mm-hmm. And I was moving into her apartment and I just moved to DC.

SPEAKER_01 17:06

And husband number one, my dad, was the one who packed you up and moved you out.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yes. And and and my sister and her husband came and helped as well. And one of the things they were like they were like, whatever you can get to the porch, we can help you with because we're not coming in that house. We don't want any of the neighbors telling him that we walked into his house and helped you. So they were like, you know, my sister was like, Can you get to the washer and dryer to the porch? Because she wanted, I had just bought a new washer and dryer. I was like, I can. So I here's me on a dolly and a and a all this kind of stuff, you know, wheeling the washer and dryer through the house, so um, you know, to get it out of the house. Because they also had trucks that if it wasn't going to my storage, maybe it was going to them, or I was trying to get as much stuff out of the house as I could. So again, that was the only time that I quote unquote did a whole big self-sacrificing of myself to try and be all of what a man needed me to be. It was simply the wrong man. So have I been married three times? Yes. Have I ever lived with a man jointly combined in all those three marriages in more than five years? No. So it's part of the problem me. Okay, yes.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

Do you think that you're prone to picking the wrong guy?

SPEAKER_00 18:21

I think that there are things that I saw from my childhood that made this type of relationship acceptable. I think that husband number three was the last straw.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

So the things from your childhood though, have those made you prone to picking the wrong guy? Sure, yes. And do you feel like you've done the work to heal from that traumatic experience?

SPEAKER_00 18:47

So, yes. But I didn't even consider it a traumatic experience because then I then I'd had to look at the traumatic experience of my childhood.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

So therefore Well, that's what you do when you heal. You have to go deep.

SPEAKER_00 18:59

Right. So therefore, the the real healing was the childhood healing, the traumatic experiences from childhood. Now, I will ask this question because I've been doing a lot of talking. From the experiences that you have seen from me that have that helped create a future for you, does that make you how does that impact your relationships?

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Definitely, um, I'm I'm selective. Okay. I'm selective, and I have been even before I was an adult. I didn't do much like, you know, dating or I was not a boy crazy teenager at all. By no means was I, I've always been a girls' girl, you know. I've had a few boys I would talk to and stuff, but was no by no means a boy crazy girl, and still I'm not a boy crazy woman. I'm very not male-centered for all of the reasons my mom just listed. You know, I'm the type that I can easily watch someone go through something and learn from that. I don't have to touch the fire to know it's hot. So yeah, I think that I've been super selective in partners. Um, I've definitely think that I am someone it's easy for me to love. It's very easy for me to love, but it's not easy for me to let someone throw me off my path. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

So are you prone to, if you had to choose between the two, are you prone to staying in a relationship or leaving a relationship? And was any of that impacted by impacted by what you saw me experience or do?

SPEAKER_01 20:26

Yeah, absolutely. I think that you are prone to leave not even just relationships with men. I think you're quick to give up. And I think that you not necessarily give up, but I think that you're quick to like even the other day you were having a conversation about your friend. She says something you didn't like, and you were like, I think I'm done being her friend. And I'm like, you've been friends with that lady since before I was born. Oh. And so I don't think that I like have that mindset of like one conversation, one day could make me necessarily in something. And like, and and there probably are things that could make me into relationship that quick. There definitely are, but you know, I'm definitely, I will try and work it out. I will try and see it through. But also anyone who is around me will tell you I have strong boundaries in place. But um, yeah, I'm very selective about who I let into my life. And I think that I think I told you when you first met husband number three, that's a con artist. Why does he have a nice car that's always dirty and full of junk? That's a con artist. I I and I've always been my mom's like, oh, she's just so smart, Alex, she's so funny. Ha ha ha ha. Girl, I wasn't playing.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Okay, so so then you feel like you have healthy emotional availability and regulations and boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, absolutely. And I know that emotional availability is something you've had to work on or are working on. Um, but I think that I've like I said, I Can learn from other people's experiences, and I've seen you work through, and I'm not even talking about the husbands, work through relationships with your sister, your mom, and stuff. And I've decided from that how much time and attention I want to give my relationships with other people because at the end of the day, people are who they are. The person I am in control of is me.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

You're emotionally available.

SPEAKER_01 22:25

I would say so, yeah. And like I said, I think Where'd you learn that?

SPEAKER_00 22:28

How did you learn that?

SPEAKER_01 22:29

To be emotionally available. I think that definitely, Dad. We're both Pisces. So Dad is the one who I think who who told me about like starting conversations about like, you know, hurt or someone's offended you with I feel, you know, like let me not start the conversation with you did this, blaming other one. Because then someone putting up defensiveness immediately. I'm very thoughtful about myself. I'm very thoughtful about, I don't really try, I try not to at least talk out the side of my neck and just casually say things to people, um, whether it's a a joke or not, because I I'm very sensitive and I know that about myself. And I think that the way I treat myself is with the utmost respect. I respect my mind, I respect my body, I respect my habits, I respect my decisions. And when I don't respect them, I give myself the room to think about it and to feel it and to forgive myself.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Okay, so you said your dad is very emotionally intelligent. Intelligent. Do you feel like that was lacking from my corner?

SPEAKER_01 23:29

Yes, and no. I think that you are emotionally intelligent. However, I do think you avoid emotional intelligence it when it has to do with you. I think when if I was in an argument with someone at school or because you did study psychology, so you understand how minds work. So if it was a discussion between me and someone else, I I do remember you being very balanced and fair and being able to say, like, listen, this is where so-and-so may be coming from because this is how it looks in their life. This is the household, this is how they're treated by society because of this. This is how you feel because of this background. You know, we don't have to all think alike, but like this is but when it comes to yourself, I think you're very avoidant of doing any thought analysis.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

It's very just like and so I also remember plenty of conversations where I would share with you that our relationships, our relationship may look different from other relationships that you would see, but because I was very emotionally protective. I that I have that in spades. But I knew that like I'm not a huggy, kissy, feely, emotional like type of mom. I was a very resourceful, anything you need, anything you want, I'm always here for you. I'm your protector, I'm your provider, I am, I am. You know, like those were the things and I I would share, like, you know, I know I need you to know that I love you. I just, you know, when I would see mothers and daughters doing things, I'd be like, girl, I love you just like that. Okay, but it it may not show up that way.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

Yeah. I don't know if you remember. Do you remember in at Mount Bethel when I got in trouble for getting not in trouble, but they told you I was giving hugs every morning, or it was like I was doing something that like it was like nice, but they were like, she doesn't need to do that.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

It you were very communal. And I think maybe you were uh, you know, a little communal because I wasn't so communal.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

Right, and that was like one of the things that made me, like, even as a child, I've been someone who's been super self-aware to say, Oh, I'm coming to school and giving hugs because we don't give hugs at home, and because my mom tells me not to hug people at church. So she would give me like these weird instructions about how I can give people hug, and she would say, put your arm right here so their chest doesn't touch your chest.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

The pastor had a specific hug. If it I listen, so when you hug your pastor, you know when you go into hug.

SPEAKER_01 25:41

We don't need to get into that because that was not the way anybody needed to be taught to hug. But, anyways, it was it was very clear to me as a child that I was doing something that was maybe a little abnormal, and because me, I'm quick to get embarrassed. I get secondhand embarrassed. If I'm if I'm reprimanded, I'm super embarrassed. So, like, I was not gonna get caught slipping against.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

I'm not a snuggly person. Um, I don't think you've ever sn snuggled in bed with me or got in bed with me or any of that. That because I that's just not my vibe. Um, but yes, and so and the other thing that I worked really, really hard on was anything that I know knew that I could not give to you, I made sure that there were people in your life that could. Your Aunt Pam, girl, go go sit in her bed with her. Like, yeah, I just and and I am that way today, still. Like, and I just think that that is how I am. Self-esteem, no self-esteem issues.

SPEAKER_01 26:33

I think that everyone goes through self-esteem things, but for me, I was just telling um my friend Kolly, who I was visiting last week, I think I've always been pretty confident, and I think that comes from being really honest about to with myself about what I like about myself and what I don't like. And the things that I don't like about myself, I don't think they're things that I can't fix. You know, like if I was ever not confident about my weight, I didn't make it a priority to sit and be sad about it and try and, you know, find a boy to validate me and make me feel beautiful. No, I just went to the gym. I can remember being a little girl and you dropping me off at LA Fitness because I had a goal. Like, yeah, mom, I gotta go to Zumba. Like, yeah, I gotta go get my 10,000 steps in. Like I was I was like that in sixth grade. So yeah, uh, I feel like I've always been pretty confident. There is, I was even thinking about it the other day because um I remember once we were having a conversation about favorite colors. And I was explaining to you like why I love purple so much and what it represents to me. And you were like, hmm. And I was like, Yeah, what's your favorite color? And you were like, brown. And I was like, eh, try again. Brown's no one, it's no one's favorite color for real. Like, I think you're just bullshitting me right now. And you were like, Well, you're brown, and I was like, it is the most beautiful color. You're right.

SPEAKER_00 27:44

Now that I think about it, you are right. We're both sitting, we both just happen to be sitting here in brown, but brown is really one of my favorite colors. Now it I have seguezed somewhat into green, but brown is still my favorite color.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

Yeah, I had to point that out to you. I think. But you Maria pointed that out because I was like, I think another favorite color for you is green. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Listen, the things that I know about myself by having my daughter be such a close observer of my life, it's actually helpful and very impactful and good.

SPEAKER_01 28:10

That's probably where I get the thoughtfulness from.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

Because if if if I wasn't thinking, Lord knows where you would have drove off to by now. Listen. It was a one wonderful and fun, wild life, wasn't it? And successful too. Don't leave that out. Absolutely. Absolutely. There's that.

SPEAKER_01 28:25

So now that we've gotten the three marriages talked about, explained, are you single forever now? Are you completely closed off to another one? Um okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

So what I realize I don't think I don't know. Oh, I love my personal space. Let's start there. Um I don't think I want to live with anybody else ever. Now, listen, if unless we have wings and things, oh like you're in the east wing and I'm in the west wing, that's fine. Um, I used to think that one of the ideal relationships was Oprah's like, oh girl, he has a house, I have a house. Uh uh who does that else?

SPEAKER_01 29:07

Cheryl Yeah, from Abbott Elementary.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

Yes, Cheryl Ralph Lee Lee Ralph. Cheryl Lee Ralph. Cheryl Lee Ralph. That sounds ideal for me. Um I don't know that I want to cohabitate with a person. I just don't. Um, and I don't think that I'm close off to relationship. I just think that now that I know myself at 60, like that that's weird to say. I'm so excited that you know more things about yourself at 32 than I knew about myself probably five years ago.

SPEAKER_01 29:39

Now that you know what you know and you have the ability to look back and analyze those relationships, were you compatible with any of those men?

SPEAKER_00 29:48

So Philip, no. Husband number two, no. Husband number three, um, no. Yes, for a lot of reasons, except for his narcissistic trait.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

And if you were to think about, okay, I am gonna do it again, tell me about this man, this made up man.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Oh, oh, I have I have no thoughts because that's that's so far, far, far away. Like, oh, you know, I I it's one of those things, you know, like if someone asks me something like, oh, what do you plan on buying this year? I'll know it when I see it, right? But before Yeah, like I mm-mm, I girl mm-mm. No ask no aspirations there, sorry. Um, what do you need in a man?

SPEAKER_01 30:36

For me in a man, I definitely need someone who is responsive but not reactive.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

So you want one of those newfangled men because men are historically known to fix. They are fixers. So they're not what they're not just prone to listening, they're prone to responding and reacting.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

I guess you can call them newfangled. I I I don't know what they was doing back in the day. But yeah, I mean, I think that it'll be it's so funny too because a lot of times they'll be like, you know, so-and-so really likes you. And I'd be like, he does? Because I just I I would have never picked up on that because his energy wasn't aligned. And so for me, if a man doesn't even lead with those things, I'm probably bar baby, I barely notice you.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

Okay, now that we both we both have that honest because people like, did you see him? He was flirting with you, he was looking at you, he was chatting with you. I'm like, girl, where? With the number of fidelity problems, only because I'm social media, right? With the number of fidelity problems, how do you remain confident about that in a relationship?

SPEAKER_01 31:39

It's remaining confident in yourself. There's nothing comes from trying to manage a man, trying to see who he's texting all day, like you're either going to choose to trust him or you're not. And everything that's done in the dark eventually does come into the light. But I don't think that if you feel the need to try and figure out all the time where this person is, micromanage, you feel like they're lying to you, that's not your person.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Do you plan for what could go wrong, or do you only go in optimistically saying this is why it will be right? When you when you watch so many things fall apart, how can you be optimistic about moving forward?

SPEAKER_01 32:21

Yeah, I think that for me, optimism comes naturally. I am a very much a half-glass full type of person, and I often like times like to think to myself in my head, like I'm the exception, not the rule. Like things oftentimes are in my family. I love that. They do. And I think that there is some planning for things going wrong that has to be done. For for me, that's the reason I believe in prenups. I don't care, you know, how much money I have going into my marriage or how much my partner has. I do believe that a prenup is a great contract to have in a marriage because Marriage is the contract. Marriage is a contract. And there needs to be protections and protocols around worst-case scenarios, which a lot of times is not cheating, it's health. It's, you know, you know, mental health and physical health declining and, you know, accidents and, you know, things like that. So I definitely think that there is some like, you know, planning that needs to happen. But generally speaking, I think that actions follow energy. If I'm giving a lot of energy into thinking that the worst or planning for the worst and and thinking that the worst might happen, I'm more than likely to attract those things. Some people say prenups are that planning for the worst. I I guess you could think of it that way, but I I don't see prenups that way. For to me, a prenup is like having an insurance. Like if I get in a car accident, that insurance is gonna cover my butt. That's how I see a prenup. Okay. Yeah. But yeah, like for example, my dad really wants me to have a a gun. He wants me to be a gun owner. And I'm like, I I just I feel like that's inviting the energy of needing to use a gun into my house. And now I get it. A lot of people will disagree and say, no, you'd rather be safe than sorry. Have the gun, have the gun.

SPEAKER_00 33:57

But yeah, no, I'm like, I I so you asked me the question of do did I feel any of the men were right for me? Did you feel any of them were right for me?

SPEAKER_01 34:08

No.

SPEAKER_00 34:08

Not even your dad?

SPEAKER_01 34:09

I think actually, out of the three, you and him probably could have been the most compatible. Now, I didn't know you guys well when you were 27 and 20, 26. I was a a child, but I think husband number two was some sort of like church experiment.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Church midlife crisis and do it God's way.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

Church midlife crisis, because he wasn't even like a like a person that I remember seeing you laugh with or like fair. And husband number three, I think it was an infatuation thing. I think he probably reminded you some of Grandpa, but he was also like exciting and fun. I do remember you kikiing and haha and on the phone and you know, and and enjoying the facade that this man wanted. Facade.

SPEAKER_00 34:55

So in relationship and in wanting relationship, is there an end goal? What what is that what it is? Is it just the experience in itself? Is it like skiing?

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Yeah, it's the experience in itself. It's the self-discovery, it's the self-growth. I think there's no power more powerful tool than love. And I mean, you like you said, you have unconditional love for me, you have a child, so I know that once I have a kid, that'll unlock a new level of love that I've never experienced and teach me more about myself and more about the universe. But I think that I'm able to give so freely and to be such a blessing to others because I do operate in love. And that starts with love for myself, and then you know.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

So what there's a couple theories of or practical applications in getting married, whether it be for money and finances, or you know, because some people only marry up, um, some people marry for prestige. What what is do you have a package that fits for you?

SPEAKER_01 35:51

Love, prestige, I definitely view marriage as a business opportunity for me. Now, granted, I love my partner and I don't plan on marrying anyone that I don't love. However, if it was just for the sake of love, however, dash comma, but yeah, if it was just for the sake of love, we could just stay partners. But the reality of it is there are benefits to being married. And even when Ariel was on, um our executive producer was on, she talked about her birth experience, and you just know, like, like there's legal benefits to having someone be your husband or your wife. If you're gonna bring kids into the world, if you're gonna start businesses, there's tax opportunities. And I think for me, like, you know, I give so much in a relationship. I I any person who comes in contact with me, but especially my partner, is you know, they're I I'm a maximizer. They they have the opportunity to make more money, they're inspired by my energy. Like my boyfriend says all the time, like, I'm doing some, I'm doing some new rich shit because of you.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

Okay, so those are some of the things he gleans from you. What do you glean from him?

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Absolutely. I glean the opportunity to sit back and relax and let somebody else say, do that, try that, and if it doesn't work out, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 37:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 37:08

It's a freedom of knowing that I can hustle and I do hustle because I've already, like I already said, like I I I'm someone who likes to get out there and work. But there's the the also the benefit of having someone who says, and when you don't want to work, if you do want to be a mom and not have to focus on making money, if you do want to try and start that business and maybe it doesn't it it doesn't work out, you can you you can do that with a safety net, a cushion. A safety net, yeah. Um okay. And there's also a peace of mind that that my partner offers me a safe space to land after, you know, everything in the world. He definitely offers me a place to just fully say whatever's on my mind. Maybe a little judgment. I won't say he doesn't he never judges me, maybe a little judgment, but he lets me fully say what's on my mind and receives it and offers me feedback.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Yeah, I don't think that I've ever really truly I'm my safe space. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 38:13

I know what you mean.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

So it's important to you that he makes more money than you.

SPEAKER_01 38:17

Yes and no. There are gonna be times in my life where I make a lot of money and I don't expect him to always be in competition with me. I don't want to be in a competition financially with my partner. However, it is gonna be my expectation that they still go above and beyond to provide for me. So even if I have more money, I was joking with him, I told him the other day ago, I was like, I don't care if I become a billionaire, you take me on vacation.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

You buy me the bag. So when you because what I what I'm seeing in in the world, my little social media world right here on this phone, is that when women outpace men, no matter what a woman does to edify that man, his his esteem, his self-esteem becomes fractured, which make which leads him to outside of the home.

SPEAKER_01 39:09

That could be true. That could be true. I just think that it comes down to, like I said, picking the right man. And there is a certain, you know, emotional intelligence and confidence and you know, self-awareness that a man has to have to know the woman he's dealing with.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

So you want children?

SPEAKER_01 39:27

I think I do, or maybe one or two. I don't want a a a gaggle, a minivan full.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

N not a small basketball team? No, not that. Um is it okay to stay in relationships that are not amazing?

SPEAKER_01 39:40

I think that sometimes every relationship, even the most amazing of relationships, go through a boring phase. You know how people say the honeymoon phase is over. So yeah, I mean, I don't think it's good to stay in anything abusive, but yeah, I think that it's okay to s to to s stick it out. What about you?

SPEAKER_00 39:59

What did you say at the top of this? I'm quick to to be like deuces, we chuck the deuces goodbye, we holler.

SPEAKER_01 40:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:05

Um, so I probably need to learn how to be listen, if I were focused on relationships, one of the things I would learn before moving into my next relationship is how to be more patient in relationships. When I tell you, you know, because people are like, well, aren't you sad? Aren't you lonely? Aren't you afraid of dying alone? If you all could see me rubbing my feet together in my house, twirling around like a a fairy having the best time ever alone, you wouldn't ask me those sorts of things, right? I have a very full life, and probably because I have a very full mind. There is no better entertainment for me than me entertaining myself. So with that being said, like I don't know. May I I may be very just singular by nature.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

Yeah. And I mean, that's okay. Me and my friend were talking about someone the other day, and this person we has dated people of all kinds, and we were joking, they have no type. But I was saying, like, like genuinely, I think this person is asexual, and that's not something that's talked about enough. Like, people, not everybody wants to be with someone. And I don't necessarily say that I'm thinking that for you, but I definitely see you right now thriving in your single phase. You know, you've done the marriage thing, you've done the mom thing, and you know, now you're a creator and you're loving it. Um, but I would just say, don't be closed off.

SPEAKER_00 41:29

I don't feel like I'm closed off. I don't feel like I'm closed off. You know, I have a friend who questions, I have a guy friend and a girlfriend who both question me about that all the time. And I can go ahead and call Damon's name. Damon's like, you know, I think da-da-da-da. And I'm like, you're wrong, sir. I don't, I don't, I'm, I'm not closed off. I just uh it's like the Mini Cooper man calling me the other day saying, Do you need a new Mini Cooper? You know what? You know what? I know it's got bells and whistles, and it looks cute. I saw it on the street, it looks lovely. I I can't, ooh, I would love to test drive and see the upgrades, but you know what? As a matter of fact, I just don't even need a new Mini Cooper, but thank you.

SPEAKER_01 42:09

That's fair enough. Well, we will stay tuned. It's still early in the year, so I'll be sure to circle back at some point and ask you about your love life. Okay, and and and rings, things, what's happening with you? What's going on? It's it's I'm not getting no money and proposing to nobody, and there's no rush, so no need to snap.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Oh, okay. All right. No, no biological clock ticking that uh divine timing.

SPEAKER_01 42:33

That's all it is, baby.

SPEAKER_00 42:35

Enjoy the ride. Thank you for this wonderful conversation. I'm glad for the insight.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Yeah, I'm glad that you were able to talk this through. And you all, that was Between Mothers and Daughters. Like I said, we're on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon. And if you're not subscribed to us, what are you doing? We're always on YouTube. You can find us at Between Mothers and Daughters Pod. Subscribe, turn those post notifications on, and we'll see you in the next episode. Bye.