40ish & Figuring It Out

Late Diagnosis, New Clarity

• Katie Koelliker • Season 1 • Episode 8

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What if the “missing piece” of your story isn’t a flaw to fix but a new lens that finally makes everything make sense? Katie sits down with coach and community builder Natalie Sharp, who’s preparing for her own ADHD assessment at 40, to unpack why so many women are getting diagnosed later in life and how that knowledge reframes everything from school memories to motherhood.

We talk about the realities of assessment access—like the UK’s right to choose pathway and long waitlists—and the quiet ways inattentive ADHD shows up in girls who are praised for being “good” while struggling to focus, initiate, and finish without a deadline. Natalie explains how perimenopause can unmask symptoms, why rejection-sensitive dysphoria hits so hard, and how unmasking can feel messy before it feels free. The conversation moves from grief and validation to practical emotional regulation, kinder self-talk, and relationship language that lowers the stakes when tensions spike.

Then we go bigger: smashing boxes in education and work that were never designed for nonlinear thinkers. We explore interest-based motivation, hyperfocus, and the value of autonomy, plus the ADHD–autism overlap that can either balance or battle inside one person. Natalie’s support group for neurodivergent women defies stereotypes with its surprising calm—proof that being fully understood is a nervous-system balm. Finally, we turn to intuition. After years of outsourcing decisions to rules and experts, rebuilding self-trust becomes the anchor. Pair the brain’s brilliance with the heart’s whisper and you get alignment—strengths like empathy, creativity, and pattern recognition working on your terms.

If you’ve ever wondered whether you’re “too much” or “not enough,” this is your invitation to step out of the box and into a life that fits. Subscribe, share with a friend who needs it, and leave a review with the moment that resonated most—we’d love to hear your story.

Connect with Natalie on Instagram Here @intuitive.adhd and links to @step.outofthe.shadows

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Speaker:

Your phrase there, the missing piece, is absolutely how I would uh describe this because I feel like I've been looking for this piece for my whole life.

Katie:

I'm your host, Katie Koelliker. Today we're talking about something that's coming up for so many women in their late 30s and 40s getting diagnosed with ADHD later in life. Our guest, Natalie Sharp, is right in the middle of her journey. At 40, she's preparing for her own ADHD assessment and has already created a support community for neurodivergent women. Through her work as the intuitive ADH coach, she helps women connect with their brains and hearts, breaking free from the boxes society tries to keep them in and learning to live authentically. The conversation is about self-understanding, self-compassion, and the freedom that comes with realizing it was never that you were too much, you were just wired differently. Let's start with your story. So, Natalie, what made you begin to suspect that you might have ADHD?

Speaker:

The main sort of reason why I have discovered this is because my son is currently going through the ADHD assessment process. And this is a very, very common story for a lot of later diagnosis for women when their children are being diagnosed with either ADHD or autism, and it makes them sort of question those things that perhaps they've never questioned previously because for them it's been normal because that's how they've lived their whole lives. So yeah, so my son's going through the assessment process at the moment, and it's through that that I recognised a lot of the traits of inattentive ADHD, which is what I suspect I probably am more likely to be diagnosed with. It's certainly more the kind of traits that my son sort of displays, which actually tends to be more predominantly women as well, tend to show inattentive traits of ADHD, which just kind of doesn't show up quite so much because it's really internalized rather than externally hyperactive, as an example, which is the other type of ADHD, or you can have combined, you can have both. And there's there's only one in our whole family who's currently diagnosed with ADHD. Um but by the end of the assessment, this pediatric nurse actually said to me, I think you probably ought to go for an assessment. So uh I kind of had it, the writing on the wall from a professional there.

Katie:

So that's that's interesting that she was able to recognize and express that concern with you as well. Because, you know, there's a lot of people who maybe are going through similar situations where maybe nobody says anything to them. They, you know, just kind of wave it off or or something say maybe that's not my problem. Um, so how did you feel when you realized that this might be a missing piece of your story?

Speaker:

Like your your phrase there, the missing piece, is absolutely how I would uh describe this because I feel like I've been looking for this piece for my whole life. Um I started having kind of counselling and therapy when I was 18 because I just never felt like I was quite I I just I I was so confused, really. I was so confused about myself. Um, I genuinely felt like I was broken, and for a very, very long time I felt like that. It's only now that I actually recognize why I have felt all of these different things that I felt over the years, and so much of it can come back to the way that my brain works and my nervous system, and there isn't a part of life that ADHD doesn't touch, and now that I have that knowledge, I can look at all of the different areas of my life that I've been confused about and gone, oh that's why. It's because of my because I'm ADHD, it's because that's how my brain and my nervous system operates, and through that lens, all of a sudden I've recognised I'm not broken, I am just wired differently, and I've been trying to fit into a society that is trying to put you in that box of neurotypical, which to be honest, I don't even think exists personally. That's just my viewpoint. I think actually everybody is neurodivergent in the sense that we are all neurodiverse. Um I do not believe that there is a typical brain out there, but I hope one day that will come. I hope at some point we recognize that actually this is just differences. Everybody has differences, and there isn't neurotypical or neurodivergent, it's that actually we're all diverse.

Katie:

Yeah. And what has the process of seeking a diagnosis been like so far?

Speaker:

I mean, I have to say that that services here, and I expect over in America as well, certainly are not able to cope with the level of demand and the need for assessments. Um, however, that being said, I have to say that my process so far hasn't actually been too bad. Um, in the UK, we kind of have two routes that you can go on. You can either go to the GP and ask to be referred just to your local kind of service. Unfortunately, those services are massively overstretched, and uh diagnosis and assessment is probably taking three, four years for ADHD or up to like eight years for autism. We also have a route which is called Right to Choose, which is basically lots of different private practices that are taking people's um assessments and then charging the NHS for it. I've gone down the right to choose route because I knew about it. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't know about it. Um so I put in for my referral in April this year, and uh my assessment is next week. So in the grand scheme of things, it's not been too bad. Uh, the real sad thing is there are a lot of people that don't know about the right to choose. They go to their GP, they ask for a referral, and then it's years and years and years and years that they're set on a waiting list because they haven't been referred via the right to choose. So there's a real inequality there with unfortunately the services being provided in the UK.

Katie:

Yeah, and I I personally don't know what that would be like here in the United States or elsewhere, obviously. Um, I do know when I've talked to people about other medical care that they need to get here, sometimes it's months before they can be seen. And um, you know, I've I've spoken with somebody who has a heart condition, and they basically told one of their doctors, well, I'll probably be dead before that appointment happens if I don't get seen sooner. And so they were able to get seen sooner, but it was one of the so I don't know, I personally don't know what that what that like is because like you said, there is quite a high demand for for services like that, and so I I personally don't know what it would be like.

Speaker:

So do your research, um, you know, talk to your primary care doctor or whoever you need to about referrals, diagnosis, and and things like that, because I personally have no idea what it's like, and other people like in the community as well, like what other routes other people have gone down, because often you know that firsthand experience from other people is invaluable, so yeah, yeah, yeah.

Katie:

And I know um on my other podcast, and I may have her as another guest on this podcast as well, but she is an ADHD life coach, she's not like a clinical anything, but she is a late diagnosed um ADHD as well in her 30s as a teacher. She, you know, helps people, people in the States, she might be able to. I think she does um virtual things so um she can talk to people all over the place, but she has also been a wealth of knowledge for people. I've recommended her to people also um curious about it, have kids. She deals with kids and adults and things. Um, but yeah, so it's definitely looking into what resources there might be in your area, other people that know about it and things, and talking to just talking to friends. They might. I have a friend who thinks that she might be going through this as well, and talking to other people about it and learning different things is is always great. Good to always have a conversation about it.

Speaker 3:

Sure.

Katie:

Um, so there's been a huge wave of women in their late 30s and 40s discovering they might have ADHD. Why do you think so many of us are being diagnosed now, not as kids but as adults?

Speaker:

So I think probably one of the biggest reasons is that actually it was only in 2013 that the kind of um so in the UK we have the DSM, which is like the the medical Bible, I think it's the IC 11 or something over there. Um so it's in 2013 that that was updated to say that ADHD could actually be um assessed and diagnosed in adults. Prior to that, the belief was that it only affected young boys and that they grew out of it. So the rates of which adults being assessed and diagnosed obviously from that point started to go up. But even at that point, there was still a real lack of understanding about the way that it presented in women, which is very different, often, not always, but often very different to how it presents in men. Um, a lot of the clinical trials and studies didn't include women because we were always told that our hormones are too complicated to do an assessment.

unknown:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So, you know, I went to school, I left school at in 2003, so obviously that was 10 years before it was even kind of recognised that that ADHD could affect adults. Um, and I certainly wouldn't have presented in a way that would have been picked up when I was in school in any way, shape, or form. Um, so there is a lot more women now being diagnosed because they are that there's just so much more awareness around how ADHD often presents in women. Also, there's a lot more just awareness of neurodivergence full stop, so a lot more children are being diagnosed and recognised, and like I said earlier, a lot of women are recognising those traits in themselves when their children are being diagnosed, so that seems to be quite a common thing. The other thing is with this interplay with hormones because there is a massive interplay between hormones and ADHD, and there is a lot of recognition now around certainly like perimenopause. A lot of women in their late 30s, early 40s are really being impacted by perimenopause, and this often unmasks a lot of the symptoms of ADHD, where perhaps coping strategies that people have had for a really long time, you know, maybe their whole lives, all of a sudden just aren't working because of the interplay with the hormones. Um so yeah, there's there's a kind of a few reasons why a lot of women are are are being diagnosed in later life. Um but yeah, the main one is just for such a long time it just wasn't even recognized that that adults could have ADHD and certainly uh not so much women.

Katie:

And do you think that cultural expectations like being organized and calm or always on top of everything have made it harder for women to recognite recognise ADHD in themselves?

Speaker:

Absolutely, yeah. The cultural conditioning side of things plays a massive, massive factor in ADHD, the struggles that can come with ADHD and also not recognising ADHD. Um, and this is very, very much predominantly women that are impacted by this because you know, we're good girls, we do what we're told to do. We're told that if we don't do what we we're told to do, then we're naughty, whereas boys can get away with a lot more, you know, it's just it's just a bit boisterous, you know, he's a just a bit this, he's just a bit that, he's just being a boy. Whereas girls, if they're not sat calmly and they're not fitting in in the way that they're meant to, then that's a really big deal. So a lot of girls naturally just conform more to societal expectations, but also in addition to that, like I said earlier, a lot of women present more in that kind of inattentive way. So, what I mean by that is rather than the hyperactive, which tends to be more of a male presentation, which is obviously very obvious, you know. Somebody who is hyperactive is generally more obvious, especially within a classroom setting. Whereas inattentive girls, as an example, tend to be just daydreaming, just not really quite getting their work done, you know, just not quite sort of getting things achieved.

Katie:

And I've definitely seen that in one of my daughters. She kind of has that aloofness, I guess. I don't want to say, but um, even from a young age, I kind of recognized that she didn't quite stay on task or she just acted a little bit differently. Like her brothers, she has two older brothers that were obviously very boisterous and you know, doing their own things and things, but she was she was a little bit different and she couldn't stay focused on certain things, and it wasn't her eyesight because we thought maybe it could be her eyesight, um, but it was you know, we talked to her pediatrician about maybe having an assessment, and he said, you know, maybe, and she was, I can't remember how old she was, and then you know, he said it might just kind of wear off. He's like, I don't know that you really want to do much about it. And we were up at that point, just based off of family histories for me and my husband, um, we weren't gonna choose medication um if that was something that was gonna be needed, and so we we we were just kind of like, well, you know, we have it in the back of our minds that that's probably what she does have, and so we'll learn, you know, strategies and coping mechanisms and ways to help her and support her in school and things, because you know, she does struggle with that a lot more than her brothers, um, but we don't feel it's impacting her so much that she needs some sort of uh uh the special education, I I can't remember what they're called. Um anyway, but whatever it is, so that she goes to like a special class or something if she needs help and support and things like that. So she had um a family member that would tutor her with reading and things when she was younger because it took her longer to pick that up because she couldn't focus. Um, I know that her aunt, who she is basically a clone of, um is possibly dyslexic. And so we've kind of considered and wondered if that was a thing. We haven't seen it predominant, we haven't seen her like write things backwards or have issues with that, so we don't think that that is it, but it was always something that we thought was a possibility. Um, but we've just watched it and we haven't seen it become a huge problem. But it's again one of those things that we're kind of like, yeah, we think that maybe she does have it, but you know, we're just learning to, I guess, cope with it. I don't want to say deal with it, but um, because that sounds I feel like that gives it a negative connotation, but that's just part of her personality. And so we just have to learn that she isn't typical, what people would call typical, which none of my kids are, they're all completely different from each other, and they're all you know, have their own little quirks and things. So it is quite interesting because I could see that similarly with other people that I grew up with. So, how has your understanding um changed the way that you look at your past, like in school relationships and towards motherhood with knowing the things that you know now?

Speaker:

Yeah, I mean, it's had a massive difference. Um, like I said earlier, there's there isn't any area of life that ADHD doesn't touch. Um, and the more and more that I understand, the more and more that I can recognise why I am impacted or why I behave or why I act or all of these different things in the way that I do through that lens of ADHD. So, as an example, um looking back at school, one of the things that was really significant for me was completing coursework and things for my uh GCSEs over here or A levels. Um, a lot of the work that I did was very essay-based, and I could never sit down and write or do any of my coursework in good time ever. I would be the child sat up until midnight, one o'clock, two a.m. trying to get my coursework done the night before that it was due in because I could not do it any other time. I would sit and try and just couldn't do it. And yet the night before, I would be sat there on MSN Messenger, as it was back in the day, with another friend of mine who has also now been diagnosed ADHD and autistic, so Audi HD. We would be sat on MSN Messenger talking to each other, saying, How many words have you done? How far are you, how are you getting on? But I would be sat there and I would feel genuinely like I was on fire, like I produced really good work, but it only happened at that very last minute. Now I understand ADHD and I recognize ah, okay, this makes sense. Like I have low levels of dopamine or very fluctuating levels of dopamine. Dopamine. I can't rely on the dopamine in order to achieve and do something using motivation because it just is really hard for me. So often people with ADHD use adrenaline as their motivator, their way of actually motivating themselves to do something. So looking back, I can now go, this makes complete sense why I couldn't do it until the very last minute, because I needed that adrenaline to kick fire my brain to work in the way that I knew that it could, and to be on fire and to actually produce really good work. And often I would get really good grades when I was able to get to that point. Unfortunately, there were also a lot of times where I completely missed deadlines and just couldn't complete work. So there was this real contradiction in a lot of my life, and that goes across so many different areas. So I'm I'm a sort of fairly overtly confident person. Anyone who meets me will say, Yeah, Natalie, she's really confident, and yet inside my self-esteem and self-worth has always been rock bottom. So again, it's this real contradiction of being really confident but really lacking in self-esteem. And it's this real kind of fairly classic concept of feeling like you're too much but not enough all at the same time. And again, now that I recognise that I'm ADHD, all of that makes so much more sense, and I've actually been able to get to that point where I'm actually able to just be a little bit kinder to myself around the things that I struggle with, and just have that real awareness of pressure points for me, or you know, working with my brain in the way that my brain really needs to work, rather than forcing myself to work as everybody else expects me to. Motherhood has been tough, I'm not going to lie. I've never been a natural mother, although I'm sure a lot of my friends around me wouldn't say that, but that again is very much how I've felt. Um, also having neurodivergent children. My youngest isn't currently going through the assessment process, but who knows that he's very much like me. Um, and having that real emotional dysregulation that often comes with being neurodivergent is hard, you know. Living in a neurodivergent home is is really hard, but I also now recognise from my own experience growing up in a neurodivergent house, when I now look around my family, there's a whole lot of neurodivergence going on there that nobody ever knew about. So I can now kind of make a bit of peace around a lot of those things, and also try and learn to do things differently. But that's also incredibly hard when that's not what my experience is, and obviously, we we learn by example, so it's sort of trying to be that change maker and try to do things differently without putting too much pressure on myself and without trying to beat myself up when I completely screw up, you know, it's a lot, it is a lot, I'm not gonna lie. Um, but I'm just grateful to be in this position now to have this awareness, to have this understanding, so that hopefully my children don't struggle in the same way that that I have or have that real contradiction in their lives throughout their lives that I've had.

Katie:

Because it's definitely the way that the generations have been able to, I mean, back in the back in the day, um, even when our parents were younger, or before that, when there were people who probably had autism or ADHD or something, they were classified as different or a freak or any of those things, and they were special or whatever it was, and so there's there's different things that people you hear I don't want to say horror stories, but family stories, I guess, about the way that their families dealt with people in those situations, locking them in rooms or tying them to a chair, or whatever it was because they were trying to beat them into submission, basically, which is obviously not the way to deal with it. And you know, the level of understanding over the years, and obviously we can't figure out why it happens or anything, and I don't think that it's necessarily like we don't need to find a cure to it because there are some amazing, brilliant minds that have what we call a superpower basically, because of their neurodivergence, and so they're able to think differently and outside the box, and they've produced amazing things for the world, basically, and so it's it's always interesting to hear the different coping mechanisms and the cycle breaking that is happening from the way that maybe an aunt or an uncle possibly had ADHD and they never got diagnosed, but you kind of recognize it and go, Yeah, that person definitely has it, you know, or or something, and being able to recognize it and break the cycles of maybe the way that those people were treated, um, either family-wise or in school or or whatever it may be. And so just the recognizing it is a huge thing. I imagine that this process brings up a mix of emotions, relief, grief, and validation. So, what's that been like for you?

Speaker:

Yeah, absolutely. Um it's a tricky one, really, because I would say in a lot of ways, because of the counseling that I've had over the years, I've probably had probably six or seven different types of counselling over the years, and I'm just naturally a very kind of self um self, what's the word, self um inquisitive. Like I am questioning, like self-questioning. I've always been very self-questioning. Um, so in a lot of ways, I'd kind of come to quite a lot of understanding of a lot of different things before I recognized the ADHD. The ADHD basically just kind of brought a lot of it together. So it hasn't necessarily been this, I don't want to say it hasn't been life-changing because it absolutely has been life-changing. But I guess what I'm trying to say is I'd already done quite a lot of the work in terms of trying to understand myself, trying to find elements of self-acceptance, and like you said at the very beginning, like this was that missing piece for me that brought it all together. So, in a lot of ways, for me, where I'm at was that actually at one point I wasn't actually going to go and get an ADHD assessment because, for all intents and purposes, I was kind of thinking to myself, like, I'm actually alright, like I recognise that I very likely am ADHD, but I don't necessarily need uh that assessment or that diagnosis because I'm actually okay. However, I recently this year have trained to become a master intuitive psychology coach, which is what I'm now working with in terms of um the intuitive ADHD coaching that I'm doing. Through that process, a lot of the work that I do is about kind of unburdening the past, unburdening conditioning that we all have, you know, not just ADHD or any kind of neurodivergent people, you know, we are all conditioned through society, through role modelling, through education, through you know, all of our experiences, we we are conditioned. And the work that I do really gets underneath the kind of the narratives, the stories that we tell ourselves to what's really going on unconsciously for all of us, and through that work, we do a lot of like kind of inner child work. I don't know whether you're aware of inner child work, but it's all about connecting with those younger versions of yourself to try and give yourself what you perhaps didn't get at those different times in your life, and this has been an absolutely kind of genuinely life-changing experience for me going through this process, and it just seems to have gone kind of hand in hand, parallel to everything with the ADHD, but I'm really grateful that that's happened. But through this, um, I kind of have ended up looking at the ADHD diagnosis through a slightly different lens of 40-year-old Natalie might not necessarily need this diagnosis. Maybe seven-year-old Natalie who felt like she was too much. Maybe she needs it. Maybe 14-year-old Natalie, who just didn't really feel like she fitted in and felt like she was desperately trying to work her hardest and be the best that she could, but always felt like she was failing and just not quite keeping up. Maybe 14-year-old Natalie needs it, and there's multiple other versions of myself at younger years that actually really needs this diagnosis. So for me, ultimately, that was where I came to was that actually I'm doing this for all of those younger versions of myself that really need it.

Katie:

And how has um your self-compassion played a role in your journey?

Speaker:

Self-compassion is probably one of the most critical things within ADHD. Um, so I don't know how much you know about ADHD, but one of the really significant things within ADHD is something called rejection-sensitive dysphoria. So it's been kind of researched, and although this isn't a diagnostic um quality, as in you wouldn't get a diagnosis of rejection-sensitive dysphoria, it is something that is recognised that probably 95% of people with ADHD struggle with rejection sensitive dysphoria, which is basically this concept that any kind of rejection or criticism or perceived rejection or perceived criticism massively, massively impacts on a neurodivergent brain, so on an ADHD brain. So to give you a little bit of an example, just so that it makes a little bit of sense, um I definitely struggle with kind of motherhood, being a wife, keeping home, all of these sorts of things. Um and if I if there's any kind of criticism or perceived criticism or perceived rejection around specifically these things for me, these are my real trigger points, it really hits hard. So, as an example, I might have come in from picking the boys up from school, come in, just literally dumped all of the bags as I've walked through the door. You know, there's chaos. I'm thinking about a million things that I'm trying to get done, need to do dinner, the boys are probably hungry, I need to get them a snack. XYZ, like there is a million tabs open in my brain of all of the different things that I need to do. And I'm not thinking about the fact that I've literally just dumped the bags as I've walked through the door and just continued doing something else. And then perhaps my husband might come along and just kind of take one look at all of the bags and go, Why have these just been left here? And I mean, I couldn't tell you how a neurotypical person might react to that because I'm not a neurotypical person, but to me, with my brain, I immediately go to because I am the worst wife in the world, because I am just a crap mother, and genuinely like it hits hard, and that's where my brain goes to. I can't even kind of rationalise that well, I just had a lot that I was dealing with in that moment when I walked through the door. You know, I can't get to that. I might be able to later, but in that very moment, sometimes that can cause that real significant emotional dysregulation for me because that rejection, that criticism, like it physically hurts, and I will always take it to the absolute worst, like it's because I am a failure, and recognizing that has been massive because there are I don't do it all the time, I'm not gonna lie, but there are a lot more times that I can now recognise that that's happening in the moment, it's that rejection-sensitive dysphoria that I'm feeling, and that's why it feels so hard. And in those moments, giving myself that self-compassion and that understanding of this is why this is happening, it isn't because you're a failure, it isn't because you're the worst wife or the worst mother in the world, it's just because these kinds of perceived criticisms, perceived rejections really hit hard. And I noticed that with my son as well, and trying to break that cycle of him not taking on that as a rejection, you know, whatever it may be. Uh again, it's all about sort of trying to have that kind of awareness and that understanding day to day. But yeah, so from a self-compassion perspective, um it kind of goes hand in hand with the self-awareness. The more self-awareness that you can have, that can then hopefully lead on to having more and more self-compassion because you recognize the reasons why these things are happening. So it's not that you're broken, it's not that you need to be fixed, it's that these are areas that are difficult, and actually, the more compassionate and kind that you can be to yourself, the less impact that that is likely to have.

Katie:

Yeah, yeah, and that's good for people who obviously. I mean, I I don't feel like I have that big, you know, climactic reaction to maybe a stray comment or or what you perceive as a criticism. Like it's it's interesting for me and very good for me to know that that might be the way somebody is feeling internally. They might not externally say anything, or you know, because I I sit there and I think my response to my husband would be, I don't know, go ask your kids, they're the ones that left it there. Like, you know, be sarcastic, but it's it's good to know and for people to recognize that maybe if you have those types of feelings over something that isn't necessarily meant to be a criticism. Um, it I mean, he might not even be directing the question at you. Like if this was just an example, you know, if your kids are within earshot, he might actually be talking to them if they're their bags. Like I feel like that's something my husband would do, you know, but I'm just hearing it, and you know, you think, well, maybe he's saying it so that I can hear him, and then I'm like you said, I'm the worst wife because I didn't pick them up, like or something, or make them pick them up, or whatever it is. And and so it's good for people to learn and recognize because um it might also help us approach things differently as well, phrasing things in a specific way. So that way if we do know maybe somebody has ADHD or something, I don't know, and just try to be more compassionate when we're speaking with others and in our inner dealings with people because we might, or if somebody does escalate and they respond a different way, then we might be able to be like, oh, maybe they're responding because of this, and and just knowing that there could be ways to de-escalate the situation or or something like um, if that makes sense.

Speaker:

Absolutely. No, I think that's a really, really important point because I do think it's really significant and really helpful to recognize that certainly people with ADHD, you know, autism as well, like there are the crossovers between ADHD and autism are are massive. So it isn't just specific to ADHD, you know, it's more inherent within ADHD, but it is very kind of a neurodivergent trait that we do take things really personally, and so much of life isn't personal. But if you have a neurotypical brain and you're not taking or you're not not looking at something through the lens of it being potentially feeling personal, then you're not going to think that it could be personal. Whereas that ADHD person potentially is seeing so much more in a very, very personal way that, like you say, it can potentially cause those just misunderstandings and things. Um so yeah, I think it's a really valid point, and and I'm glad that you you made that point.

Katie:

Um, so have you noticed changes in your mental health or sense of identity since beginning this process?

Speaker:

Yeah, absolutely. Like across the board with all of it, really, um my mental health has definitely improved. There have also been times that it's felt harder as well. Now, what I mean by that is that I do think that there's an element of unmasking when you get to this realization of recognizing that you've got a neurodivergent brain. It's like there's almost an element of kind of letting go of some of the coping strategies and unmasking the things that you've kept internally for such a long time. So on the whole, things have been a lot better, but in addition, there have been times where things have felt harder and more chaotic, but it's just recognising there that it's a little bit of a recalibration, I think, is a really good way of explaining of living life in a particular way for 40 years, and then actually just letting some of those things slide and becoming a lot more understanding and competitive. Passionate about other things, but that recalibration can feel quite messy as well. Um, but for the first time in my life, I have started to feel a hell of a lot more self-accepting than I ever have ever have. I genuinely don't feel like I'm broken or need to be fixed in the way that I have my whole life. I'm not saying that I'm all okay and everything's great, you know, because that doesn't exist. For anybody that that that doesn't exist. Um but I am definitely on the right track and feel in a much better place than than I ever have.

Katie:

Yeah, and definitely being able to recognize and give yourself grace um that maybe you didn't give yourself before, recognizing it. And so that's also very important. So moving on, one of the things that I love about your message is the idea of smashing the boxes that society expects women to fit into. Can you share what that means to you?

Speaker:

Sure. So this very much comes back to that kind of conditioning that we've spoken about and sort of societal expectations. And and unfortunately, I do think that you know education does play a massive role in this. It's not the only role, obviously, kind of family conditioning, family um the way that we're brought up by our caregivers, you know, obviously is incredibly significant. But often there is a lot more flexibility and a lot more understanding and a lot more kind of allowance within family units, whereas within education, I don't think that there's been a huge amount of change in the education system since I was at school, and that was quite a long time ago. It does still feel very much like there is one way of doing things in education and one way of learning, and so many children just do not fit into that box. So, as an example, I am a visual processor, I'm a verbal processor. I need to really be creative in the way that I do things, that's how my brain absorbs information. ADHD is also very much a kind of focused around interests. So we struggle with motivation, we struggle with getting things kind of started or completed or things until you give us something that we love, and then we hyper focus, and we can do so much in a few hours, like I can achieve more in a few hours than most people achieve in a full day if it's something that really just lights me up, and that's how we operate. And if we were able to bring that kind of concept into education, don't get me wrong, I don't know how that happens. I don't I don't have the answers. All I know is that the way that it currently is is not working for so many children, and yet if we had that way of working, that would benefit everybody, not just neurodivergent children, like that would benefit everybody. And that's been proven through studies when they've actually changed um education settings and worked in a way that is more accessible to people with dyslexia, people with autism, people with ADHD. It benefits everybody, so it's not just for those neurodivergent children, it's for everybody. Um, but yeah, like I said, I'm I'm a verbal processor, I need to be able to verbalize those things that I'm learning and take on board and in a creative way or visually, and and so much of education just doesn't include those kinds of things. And that goes then throughout life because the trouble is if you struggle to fit into that box of education, then what ends up happening is you come away with labels of, well, I'm just really stupid, or I'm just never going to reach my full potential. All of this kind of conditioning that happens when you're trying to squeeze yourself into a box that doesn't fit is what often results in the real significant struggles that people with ADHD and other neurodivergence have, because you're trying to take a brain that operates like this, it's not linear, it operates like this, and trying to squeeze it into that linear way of working, and you just feel stifled, you feel stuck, you feel restricted, which is how I felt in a lot of jobs that I've done. I've had about 20 different jobs since I left school. I now understand why that is because I'm ADHD, and I do get excited by new things, and I, you know, I've done that, I move on. I've done that, I move on, trying to find the thing that really works and having autonomy within what I'm doing. Like all of these things are significantly important to me as an individual, but I've beaten myself up massively. Why can't I just stick at something? Why can't I just stay and do a job for more than a couple of years? You know, I've taken that to be a me problem when actually it's not, it's not a me problem, it's just society's expectation of well, you can't be very good then because you don't stick at anything. But you look at it through the different lens of not trying to fit into that box, and like I said, I just have this concept of I just want to smash down these boxes because that's not how we are brilliant. We are brilliant by not being confined, by not being pushed into something that doesn't fit for us, and that goes for a lot of these coping strategies. You know, I'm not trying to diss any kind of ADHD coaches out there, but a lot of ADHD coaching and other support for ADHD is about trying to make you do more or focus more or fit in and find coping strategies in order to make that happen. The way that I work at the intuitive ADHD coach isn't about finding strategies, it's actually about learning to work with your brain and work in a way that's really truly aligned for you so that you actually reach your full potential in the way that you're meant to, not by the way that we've been told that we're meant to.

Katie:

Yeah, and I definitely know some people who definitely are adults that have never been diagnosed with ADHD that they can't work an office job. They've always done physical labor or manual labor or jobs where they're on their feet all the time, because that is how they can stay hyper-focused and focused, is by doing their bodies physically working or they're interacting with people. And other people are like, Well, why can't you just get a typical nine to five job? And it's like, well, their brain and their body doesn't operate that way, so they can't they can't do that. Like they would get bored and they'd probably get fired if they did because they'd be staring at the wall and not doing what they're supposed to be doing, not staying on task and that type of thing. Like it it takes a certain type of a personality and person that can work in certain fields. And I feel like at least the adult people that I know that have those, they they're not in those typical desk jobs, I guess you could say, working a typical nine to five type of a job. They're um, you know, doing other things, they're working with kids, they're I don't know, working with support groups and and doing manual, like I said, manual labor, blue-collar jobs. And so it's and that's what makes them happy, and that's what works for them and their attention and things like that. It's what excites them, um, being able to do that. Like I know um, I know somebody who is like a plumber, but they're just the kind that they're not like a they don't do actual like putting the pipes together for houses, they're like unclogging toilet types of things, and that is like their jam. And it's like I could never ever do that, but it's thinking about the type of person that has to be able to do that, figuring out what the problem is, diagnosing it, and you have to have a certain mentality in order to do that and think about it and think outside the box, depending on what it is, and so it's it's one of those things that maybe just a normal person you could say might not understand that or want to do it, and they're like, I don't under, you know, I'll just call that guy and whatever. But it's it's those are the types of people that need to have different options and opportunities for different types of jobs, and and they're out there, definitely are out there, and it's important.

Speaker:

We need we need all of this difference, you know. If we were all the same, yeah, we would not survive as the human race, right? You know, it is that difference that makes us brilliant as a species. Um, and it and I genuinely am here to celebrate that, you know. I think it's so important that we we really celebrate our differences rather than saying this is the way that we should all be.

Katie:

Yeah, and I've listened to a lot of um a season of a different podcast recently that is talking about the troubled teen industry here in the United States and abroad, but um, there are a lot of kids who were never diagnosed that have ADHD or they're on the autism spectrum or things like that. And it was their feeling that they were like, I don't know why I could never fit in. And I just wanted to fit in because I didn't want to stand out and and different things like that. And so hopefully, you know, and as adults, they're like, I wish I could go back and maybe tell myself that you didn't need to conform, basically, and be like everybody else. I know myself, like I was kind of an awkward person. I I fit in a lot of different boxes with a lot of different groups, and I had a lot of different people give me some really weird compliments I've mentioned before, and and I could have taken those as like negativity, and I took them as positivity, and I'm like, yeah, I'm not like everybody else. I don't dress like you because I don't want to look like every other girl that goes to high school, and you know, sometimes I I would reflect on it and be like, oh, maybe I could have or should have dressed a little more like everybody else, and then I'm like, no, because that's not my style. And so it's it's not a bad thing to stand out and be your own person because that's what you're meant to do, is to be your own person. And so that's definitely something as adults that we're able to pass on to our children that you don't have to be like everybody else, and you don't need to look like everybody else, I guess you could say. So it's it's definitely something that we can bring up with our kids and talk to them about it and things like that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah.

Katie:

Um, so how can women start living more in alignment with who they really are and not who they think they're supposed to be?

Speaker:

It's a big question. It's a big question. Um, so the work that I do through the intuitive ADHD coach is about helping women to connect with their intuition. So, what I mean by this is we all have this internal compass that is there to help to guide us. But in modern society, we've got really good at ignoring this. There is so much information out there in the world. You know, we are literally a click of a button and we can find anything out that we need to. There are so many experts, so many gurus out there that is telling us about the latest diet that we should be doing, or this is the next thing that you know is gonna make your mental health amazing. You know, whatever it is, there is so much noise out there, and yet we all have this ability to know what is right and true for us, but we have to get quiet and we have to get still in order to start listening to it because our intuition is quiet, it's a whisper that comes from within us, and I'm sure everyone listening to this can relate. I'm sure everyone in their in their lives has had a situation where they've gone, I just need to do this, and I can't explain why, I can't rationalise, I can't bring any logic, I just know that I need to do this. Now that can be something quite significant, or it could just be really small. Like, I don't need to be here right now, like this isn't, I just need to not be here in this party, or you know, I can't explain why, I just need to go, you know. Yeah, we all have that, but like I said, we have learnt to ignore it, we've learned, we've been conditioned to not trust it as well. Like, listen to everybody else, don't listen to yourself. And unfortunately, I do think that that people with ADHD and other neurodivergence are even more impacted by that lack of self-trust, that lack of listening to themselves, because we've constantly been told that we're wrong. That's not the way you should be doing things. This is the way that you should be doing things. Don't be so sensitive, don't take things so personally. Oh, why are you so dramatic? You know, all of these things that are constantly labeled to people who are ADHD just chips away at that self-trust because it's like, oh well, everybody else is telling me that I'm doing things wrong, therefore I must be doing things wrong. So we have a real lack of self-trust. So the work that I do is really helping women to learn to listen to their intuition, listen to that whisper that comes from within within them to know what is right for them. Not because everybody else is telling them this is the right thing for you, but because they know that this is what's really in alignment with me. And what this is doing is just starting to balance out the head, the brain, and the heart. So ADHD people very much live in their heads, you know. Our brains are really busy, there's a lot going on there, and we spend a lot of time in that kind of logic, in that reasoning of trying to get things right because we're constantly feeling like we're not getting things right. But our brains are very noisy and very loud, and are often come from a place of fear. Don't do that, do this. No, no, no, don't just don't question that, just do this. You'll be fine, just don't try doing things differently, just do do it like this, and you'll be absolutely you know, this is what goes on in our brains. Whereas our hearts are that quiet whisper, come on, Natalie, you know that this isn't right for you. There's just that niggle, this just isn't quite right. Even though your brain is telling you, just keep on going, you'll be fine, just keep on doing it. Your heart will be whispering, it's just not, it's just not for you. So I just like to try to rebalance this for women with ADHD to learn to use their brains in the brilliant way that their brains are, but also learn to listen to their hearts because our hearts are incredible being ADHD as well. The compassion, the empathy, the sensitivity that we have as individuals is out of this world, but often it's used for other people and less so for ourselves. So, again, it's just rebalancing that so that it's more for ourselves to help us to live that life of authenticity and in alignment of what works for us, not because what we're told.

Katie:

And you've started a local support group for neurodivergent women. So, what have you learned from being in community with other women on this path?

Speaker:

So, one of the first things that I really recognized at the support group, which was hilarious and brilliant and wonderful, was um, I think it was actually in the very first group that I did. So it was in July this year, was when I set it up. So it was the very first support group, and there was 12 of us there, never never met each other before, just brand new to this group. And after about maybe 30 minutes, 40 minutes or so, the calm that was in that room was just incredible. And somebody made a joke about I think it was somebody's husband made a joke about wanting to be a fly on the wall at an ADHD women's group. Like that must be absolutely raucous and chaos and all of this sort of stuff. And yet the calm that we all felt being in that room, being able to let the masks drop, just be ourselves and just feel seen and heard and understood, and like we just didn't have to pretend we could just be ourselves, but it was so calm, and like I said, it was hilarious because contrary to popular belief, like it wasn't the chaos that everybody perhaps expected it to be, because actually we were just with people that really just we didn't have to mask around. Um, the other thing that I've really really really noticed, which I had an awareness of, but not to the level that I now do, and that is the interplay between autism and ADHD. Um, again, it was in 2013 that it was recognised that you could have ADHD and autism. Prior to that, they were distinct um diagnoses and you couldn't have both. They now recognize that the the interplay between the two can be up to about 70%. It is significant, and I have really seen that in the group. Um, it is an ADHD group. I market it as an ADHD group, but I'm also inclusive of all neuro all neurodivergents. It's just that the focus is ADHD. But again, I would say that probably 60 to 70 percent of the women that are coming are either diagnosed or DHD or questioning, have a that have a diagnosis for ADHD, but are likely considering that they're autistic as well. So it's really helped me to kind of realize how how much. there is a an a crossover between autism and ADHD. And the difficulty is unfortunately that can create even more chaos for people who are ADHD because sometimes the traits of ADHD and autism can really help to balance each other out. So as an example autism likes routine, likes to know what's happening, likes you know consistency. ADHD likes impulsivity, likes you know being a bit spontaneous and exciting and you know doing things differently. And sometimes that can help balance so that it's not too much of this and not too much of this. But at times it can also be like battling against each other like this desperate need for routine and knowing where you are and knowing what's happening. And yet this I desperately want to be spontaneous and do things differently but I just can't because it feels too unsafe to do that because I need that routine. So you know it is it is incredibly complicated and I know of a number of people who have been for a diagnosis of one or the other and not ended up with that diagnosis because likely at that particular time the other neurodiver the other neurodivergence was probably more in the driving seat on that particular day or at that particular moment than the other. And it can work like that as in on a day by day basis it can be that you know that's more in the driving seat compared to this. So there's a lot of complexity with Aud I love the community that we're building as part of the support group it's really needed. Yeah and what kinds of conversations happen when women finally feel seen and understood in these groups that you've done so there's a lot of laughing like we do definitely laugh about some of the struggles that we have and the kind of the absurdity of the chaos of our brains um as an example um we quite often have real struggles with like noise sensitivity so I can become massively overwhelmed when there's too much noise going on like especially at home with young children and you know trying to cook and the the extractor fans going and that can cause me a significant overwhelm at times when there's just too much noise and too much chaos and yet I can go sit in my car and turn my music up so ridiculously loud and love it. There's just again like there is a lot of contradiction involved in ADHD like I can't cope with loud noise unless it's my loud noise and then it's okay.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker:

So there's but it's these kind of conversations that we have at the support group where we can say these things and the people sat there go oh yes like you get it you get it because you say that to perhaps somebody else who perhaps might be neurotypical and they'd be like what do you mean you can't cope with loud noise sometimes but you cannot like that doesn't make sense well no it doesn't make sense but it does and to be seen and heard in that kind of environment where you just really understand um and obviously everybody's at different stages of their journey some have been diagnosed for a few years some haven't been diagnosed yet so just to have that kind of space where people can ask questions and not feel stupid not feel like you're not really going to understand this because at least one other person in that group will go yeah totally that's me and this is this is what's going on so yeah it's brilliant yeah uh the noise thing my husband most definitely has ADHD he's not that close but he's like yeah I'm in for sure and he's with that noise it's like the same thing for him like I'll have the TV on in the background and I'm not actually watching it and you know nobody's watching it but I just want the background noise on because that's how I operate and he's like do we really need the TV on right now and it's like no I'm like you can turn it off I just wanted it on so it's I I totally get it you know because I I can see that because I'll be doing cleaning or whatever and I'll be listening to something and I'll be playing on my phone and the TV's on and it's like for him it's like either I'm watching a show or it's off like it's it's not multitasking where I am definitely uh have like five different things open at the same time and I am paying attention to all of them slightly and so I get Are you sure you're not ADHD? Oh I probably am in some degree in some degree I mean that it's that that multitasking like again like a a lot of ADHD people have to operate like that. I can't do one thing at once that doesn't exist you know I do get massively overwhelmed with lots of things but also I can't operate by doing one thing at once I have to be doing lots of things at once so yeah it's it's a contradiction.

Katie:

Yeah there's there's definitely a possibility I I definitely would say that there's a possibility I haven't thought about it or anything like that but I know like my husband and I we are all like yes he definitely has ADHD and you know all the his stories and crazy things that he does and he's one of those that's like firing all cylinders at two o'clock in the morning because he can't sleep because his brain is still going um so we definitely know that that's one of his things I I know my one of my big things is um I'm very much a I I want to say and my husband said that there's something about it where when I would study in school I would listen to music so that way I could recall what I was reading yeah while I thought of a tune and he was like yeah that's and he told me what it is he can't do that. He's like no way um but I no I used to do that yeah I'm I'm definitely that way like I've I've said you know there's a stretch of road between I live in Utah and I've driven to Idaho numerous times and there's a stretch of road where I correlate it with an audiobook that I was reading or listening to I guess wasn't reading an audiobook that I was listening to because I'm like oh I was listening to this book while I was driving on this road the for the first time that I can remember it. And so that's how I process stuff is yeah is that way. But yeah well you know if I'm interested in getting a diagnosis myself maybe I will absolutely you never know absolutely um so how can friends partners or coworkers better support someone who is neurodivergent?

Speaker:

You know the the real significant thing with any kind of neurodivergence which whatever it is is you know there's a saying if you've met one autistic person you've met one autistic person it it's the same with kind of any neurodivergence. So yes there's a lot of traits there's a lot of commonality between neurodivergence but everybody is different everybody's experience of neurodivergence is different so yes by all means like do as much research as you can to have that understanding of ADHD or autism or whatever but if you really want to support a significant person in your life then you need to understand their neurodivergence because it will be different to everybody else's neurodivergence. So you know I quite often send a lot of kind of Instagram reels or memes or whatever to my husband about things that really relate to me and my experience of neurodivergence to help him to understand this is me. This is what happens um and that's definitely been helpful to be able to do that because it is kind of then relatable um but it can work both ways you know it could be that he could ask me questions about you know I read this is that your experience or is it not to open up that communication so yeah I just think it's really important to to understand what that individual's experience is in the context of a kind of an overall understanding of neurodivergence.

Katie:

Yeah because it's definitely not all the same for everybody and certain things that may I guess trigger some people might not have the same effect on other people and reactions will vary and um coping and different things are definitely going to be different from person to person. No no two people are the same. I have a set of twins and they're identical and they are definitely not identical their personalities are absolutely different um and so it's it's you know that like I definitely know everybody's DNA and makeup is completely different and so we're all gonna have our own little quirks and personality traits and things like that. Because I thought I had known a couple of sets of twins growing up and for the most part they were pretty similar in their interests and different things and so having my own set of twins I just kind of assumed that that's how it would be and right from the very beginning when I was pregnant with them one of them was way more you know like active than the other and different things and I was like oh my gosh they're totally going to be different and as babies they were completely different and so it's not all going to be the same for everybody. So definitely I love that the making sure that you know what that person's I guess makeup is so that way you know how to approach them. Absolutely and I also love how you encourage women to see their brains as not broken but as brilliant just different what are some strengths you've discovered in yourself since starting this journey good question.

Speaker:

There is definitely a lot of strengths um that I already kind of had recognized my particular strengths so working with people um is definitely one of my strengths and I now kind of recognize the the interplay with that in terms of kind of being ADHD um the real empathy that that we have that real kind of sensitivity a lot of people with ADHD find themselves in kind of helping positions and very creative positions and like that kind of thinking outside the box and creating a world that works for them that isn't fitting inside a box. So you know having trained as a um as an intuitive psychology coach that is enabling me now to be able to work more autonomously um in in ways that really really work for me so that I can be really creative in the way that I do things and I'm not being told how to do things. I do things how I want to do things and you know I can really let my brain work to the best of its ability which is one day you know just completely doing something completely randomly different because I've gone down on this tangent and yes at times I have to kind of reel myself back in to try and get stuff done but in the same sense that that out of the box thinking and that's that nonlinear thinking just really helps to create just incredible things if I elect if I allow that to happen there is a lot of jobs out there that just don't allow that to happen um so yeah there's been a lot of strengths that I've kind of recognized that are inherent to kind of my makeup the way that I am um but again I'm different to every single individual every other ADHD individual as well so yeah and what does living authentically look like for you now so living authentically for me is about getting out of my head and getting into my heart into my body listening to myself listening to those whispers that I spoke about it's helped to find clarity where for a long time there felt like there was just chaos I'm not saying that there's not still chaos there absolutely is but I've been able to find an element of that clarity within that chaos because a lot of the chaos is in my head it is in my brain and like I said just taking that pause taking that moment to just really connect with my heart with what I know to be true for me not second guessing not questioning we all have the answers that we need within ourselves but your intuition is like a muscle like the more that you use it the stronger that it becomes and if you've gone through life very much kind of ignoring your intuition not trusting your intuition listening to all of the external noise looking for external validation then that muscle won't be particularly strong but you can learn to strengthen it. So living in alignment living in authentic in authenticity for me is about allowing that real deep connection with myself with my truth to be able to live my life in that way rather than the chaos of my mind.

Katie:

Yeah I I love that because it's definitely something that we can all work on whether we're neurodivergent or not um just like anything practice makes perfect so you want to make sure that you're used to using that tool that is already given to you inside of you and it's something that can help enhance your life and so learning how to recognize it and utilize it is definitely very important for everyone. Absolutely and so um the final question that I have it's kind of the signature question is what are you still figuring out at 40 and processing with this possible diagnosis?

Speaker:

There's still a lot to figure out there really is you know for one thing I've got my assessment next week so that's you know a fairly significant hurdle in this journey um but I'm also kind of I'm also at an element of peace of whatever that looks like because the thing is with any kind of diagnosis you have to meet a clinical um like a diagnostic criteria you have to hit that in order to get that diagnosis I don't know whether I will or won't you know I do have a lot of coping strategies already I've done a lot of work already and it might be that I don't quite meet that clinical criteria I don't know unfortunately as with a lot of these things you know a lot of these assessments are based on kind of deficit based practice like so it's kind of I need to go to the worst case scenario of these are the really awful times that can happen at times thankfully they're few and far between now but they can still happen um but yeah it still feels like I don't know how I'm gonna feel is the complete honest answer. I really don't know because at the moment I'm kind of surmising I'm kind of trying to put myself in that place of having that diagnosis but the reality is I don't really know how I'm going to feel and I do think that there'll be again a bit of an element of that recalibration that I spoke about earlier having gone through that process of the assessment and a possible diagnosis. And also just this this part in our lives as I'm sure you know this is the whole point of this podcast that you're doing I do think that there is just this element of coming home to ourselves. I'm sure when we were younger it was called a midlife crisis I now recognise that it's not that it's actually just getting to the point of recognizing that you know I might have spent the vast majority of my life doing things because everybody else has told me to or I think it's best for everybody else but not best for me. And actually you get to that point of in your life where you've gone how much of that has actually served me those people that I've done those things because I believed it was the right thing for them but not for me are they still even in my life anymore or do I even care about what they think anymore hell no you know I'm all for the midlife crisis if this is what it's all about. Bring it on. I am here for all of it and it's still going to be a journey there's still a lot of figuring out to happen but I am absolutely here for the next 40 years plus hopefully of living my life for me and my family and what I want and what I need and in alignment with myself than doing it for anybody else because we're the only ones that matter.

Katie:

Yeah I think that's a hard lesson for a lot of people to recognize is doing things for yourselves and not for other people because like you said a lot of people might no longer be in our lives and did it actually serve us in any way because I can think of a lot of things in my early 20s and different things that I if I had done things differently maybe my life would be different now because they were things that maybe I I wouldn't have done maybe like in jobs or different things or maybe I wouldn't have cared as much or I would have left things sooner because I was more independent on my my own as an adult I guess and those things didn't really serve me but I feel like it was what I was expected to do. You know we talk about expectations and so it's some of those things where it was like um maybe now looking back on it is like yeah I don't know if I would have done that because it really didn't serve me well. It didn't really get me anywhere. I put a lot of work and energy into some jobs that I cared more about than they cared about me. And I wish I would have recognized it sooner so that I could have left sooner. Um, but yeah, so it's definitely a part of our lives where we're looking back on things and saying, you know, I need to care more about myself because I've been caring about others so much. And a lot of us, not all of us, but several of us are parents, and so we've been giving our lives to our children a lot when they're younger and they need us. And now that they're getting older, it's figuring out who we are as people, and you know, coming to I don't want to say terms, but coming to the fact that we need to rediscover ourselves and figure out who we are again.

Speaker:

Yeah, sure.

Katie:

All right, Natalie, thank you so much for this conversation. It's such a powerful reminder that self-discover self-discovery doesn't stop at 40, it often starts there. You can follow Natalie and her work at the intuitive.adhd on Instagram, and that will be linked in the show notes, and learn more about her coaching and community for neurodivergent women. If this episode resonates with you, maybe you've been wondering about ADHD yourself, you are not alone. The more we talk about it, the more we all start to feel seen. Until next time, keep giving yourself permission to be exactly who you are, no boxes required. Thanks, guys. Have a great day. 40-ish and figuring it out is produced and edited by me, Katie Koelliker. Sound mixing, also me. We're a very efficient one-woman show over here. The music for this episode was created using the Suno app. So special thanks to Suno for providing licensed royalty-free music through their platform. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.