Healing Out Loud With A Children’s Therapist

What if resilience isn’t about being tough—but about letting yourself be seen? Today we sit down with counselor and author Stacy Schaffer to explore how healing starts when we match our insides to our outsides. Stacy opens up about the pivotal moment a childhood friend asked what really happened the year she “disappeared,” and how choosing to own her story transformed her life and practice.

We dive into the difference between “strong” and resilient, especially in the shock of grief. Stacy breaks down small, doable steps to build emotional resilience: practicing honesty with safe people, asking for listening instead of advice, and noticing defensiveness as a clue to unhealed places. Drawing from two decades of clinical work, she shares what kids teach us about growth—why naming feelings early prevents years of unhealthy coping—and how simple validation can change a child’s trajectory more than any five-step plan.

We also face the hard realities today’s youth carry: lockdown drills, ubiquitous social media, and chronic anxiety that often feels rational. Stacy offers clear ways parents, teachers, and community members can be safe places, without rushing to fix. She talks about narrating her audiobook as a powerful integration practice, and why clinicians—and all of us—do better work when we do our own work. Midlife themes run throughout: setting boundaries, protecting capacity, and caring less about approval while caring more about congruence. If you’re craving practical tools and a compassionate reframe on resilience, this conversation will meet you where you are.

Subscribe, share with a friend who’s doing their own emotional work, and leave a review to help more people find the show. What’s one small truth you’re ready to say out loud this week?

Link to Stacy's website and where to buy her book HERE

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Transcript

Welcome And Stacey’s Mission

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So I I just think like if you can feel like you're a safe place to come to without feeling like you're going to fix them, um that that is is almost everything.

Katie 0:39

Welcome back to 40ge and figuring it out. I'm your host, Katie Collicker. Today's guest brings a beautiful mix of wisdom, heart, and humor to some of the toughest topics resilience, healing, and emotional wellness. Stacey Schaeffer is a licensed counselor and the author of With Love from a Children's Therapist, Lessons I Have Learned Along the Way. After years of working with children, families, and individuals, she's gathered powerful insights about growth, trauma, and doing your emotional work no matter your age. And there's a lot of personal experiences also tied along in the book. Her honest, heartfelt, and full real life lessons that can help all of us live a little more intentionally. Okay, so I've already I haven't read the whole thing since you sent me the link to it last night, but I have read quite a large chunk of the book. Um ready? Wow. But let's start with the book. Um again, it's titled With Love from a Children's Therapist. Um, so what inspired you to write it so that the listeners can be a little bit more familiar with um your work and experiences, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Yes, okay, thank you so much for having me. So I know that you read the um that you're reading the e-book, so you didn't see how pretty the cover is, but like cover's really pretty. Um so I started doing my own healing work, I would say a little over a decade ago. And like prior to that, I didn't really talk about my childhood. I like kind of anything I referenced was like high school and beyond. And um, when I started doing my healing work, I'm like, oh I have I have things to say, and so I um I I started mentally thinking, you know, one day when I'm able to talk about some of these things, like I I want to help other people with it because there's enough content, and I'm approaching 20 years as a clinician um for kids to young adults families, and I'm like there are things, um, some things that are universal, um, that I would love to share to the greater world that maybe people who don't have access um to a therapist, um, who are that what for whatever reason can still gain something from a clinician who's been on the other side of the couch for a long time.

The Moment She Chose To Own Her Story

Katie 3:05

Yeah, and it's really interesting, like the parts that I've been able to read so far, um, talking about your own personal experiences and your traumas and relating that to you as a grown adult, and then also tying in some patient interactions and things, and how those all kind of tie together, and you're able to share, you know, kind of like if only people knew this on that wider scale, which is obviously why you wrote the book, is to give that information out there for people. Um, so when did you decide that you wanted to write the book? And did you always want to try and write a book, or was were you inspired by anything specific?

SPEAKER_01 3:51

Yeah, there I mean there's a there's a couple significant things that happen along the way, but um, I remember in 2017, um I my ch my closest childhood friend lived five houses down her whole childhood. And she we're I'm from Vegas, which isn't my fault. Um showed up on the scene. Um, but she moved to a town that's like I'm in Colorado, like an hour and a half away. And so we were like, we should meet up, and so we met up for brunch in September of 2017, and we were chatting, catching up, and she said, Hey, so what happened that year you disappeared, and I was like, I like had my like omelet like right there, like a movie, and I was like, um, what? And um, she's like, I went to your house, and your mom pretended she wasn't there, and then I kept knocking, and then she said that you ran away, and she slammed the door in my face, and I went home, and my dad said, Sometimes families have secrets. She's like, and then when we were in high school, you showed back up and we waved, and but she was like scoring spice and like talking spice, and um, we she's like, We're in different crowds, and um, I just never what happened? And at that point in my journey, like I started doing my healing work, going to mom therapy, talking to close friends, um, but I wasn't open. Um, and I I changed the subject and I cried the whole way home. I called one of my friends who's like a mom figure to me, and I'm like, I couldn't tell her, I couldn't tell her, and she said one day you'll be able to. And that that moment was really significant for me because I'm like, I need I I wanna own my excuse me, I wanna own my story. Like, I don't want to like be frozen and not be able to communicate. Like, that's not what really happened, you know, like it was a day and age because you know, Jordan figuring out that there wasn't social media, and so you couldn't fact check that. Like, your child ran away, but like you're not posting about that, but that's right. Um, and so I I felt so sad um for both of our younger selves. Um, and I and I was like, I want to get to a place where I can freely share my own story. You know, my mom died um in 2001, and so I never knew this story. Um, and so that that was a big moment. And then at my book launch party in May, um I I messaged her in January and I said, Hey, so I wrote a book. And so I am actually talking about it now. Um, and like I don't know if you want to come to my and so she's like, I'll be there. And so um at my book launch party, I was up in front, like talking like being interviewed and um said this story, and she was like with her husband and like sobbing on the couch, like sobbing. And that was significant to me in another way, um, to like own the truth of kind of my like my mom's role in all of that. Um, and so but I would I would say that moment in time when I was paralyzed, I didn't want to be paralyzed. Yeah, kind of the long answer to your short question.

Recording The Audiobook And Integration

Katie 7:19

No, it's good. Um, yeah, it's it's very hard for people to obviously come to terms with especially trauma in their lives, and as you know, as a clinician, um, you know, talking about it and speaking about it and feeling safe about talking about it, and there's so many emotions that go into it, and um, which is also mentioned in your book. And so it's it's definitely something that it's very hard for a lot of people to do to be raw and to have that space to be open to doing it because you don't know if the person that you want to talk to about it has space as well for that, the capacity for receiving it. Um, and that's that's really difficult as well. So you also for specifically in the book, you also did an audio part of it that is available on Spotify, which we will have both of these, um, all of her information linked in the show notes for Stacy's book that you can pick up, or if you want to listen to it in audio form, it's available on Spotify Premium. But what was that like recording your own voice? Because I know, like when I started doing podcasting, it was a little bit weird hearing my own voice. Um, but how was it? Did you go back and listen to what you had recorded? Like I assume it's your voice um in the audio and and speaking through and listening back to what you had written. Um, if you went back and listened to it?

SPEAKER_01 8:48

Yeah, it's a great question. Um, I'm it's also on Audible. Um, and so I had the best experience. Um, like shout out to Nashville Audio Productions. Like, I grew it in Nashville um to do that, and I was really, really nervous um because my my story's intense. Like my book is intense. Yes. And um I'm aware of that. And so I, you know, like obviously I'm okay with the world knowing what is in my book. Um, but it's like so hard. And I it was really important to me that if an audio book was gonna be done, I was gonna do it because I was like, I'd be so mad if like the inflection was wrong, like they like missed a joke part, because I do increase humor in it, because I'm funny and humble. It's a hard combination. And so I it was it was important to me that was me. And so um I I like um I messaged the um the you know, production Andrew, and I was like, I'm a little nervous because what if like I choke up and he was just like um, you know, our people are like patient, whatever. And so um my the person that like was assigned to me to the he was the nicest, kindest guy on the planet. And also a perfectionist, um, a kind perfectionist. So he's like, let's do that like one over. And so um I got used to my own voice really fast, um, because you were like you're you're like hearing your own voice and it at first it feels cringe, um, and then you're like, like, whatever. Um, and so, but I I think a lot of times like when I pause in conversation, I'm like, oh, I'd have to do that sentence over. Um, and so um it it was such a good experience, and then like if you write another one, please choose us, and I'm like, definitely, but we're not talking about writing another one right now because this is a lot. Um and so um, and I love Nashville, Nashville, shout out to Nashville. Um, but I I would say that it was important for the integration process because that's what this whole thing has been about, is been about like congruence with matching insides to outsides. Like that's part of the point of writing like book for me personally, that it was like I wasn't two separate people, like childhood fear, the face I present to the world. Um, but but I was I was you know reading reading things out loud. I would say some of the hardest parts is like reading my um my like acknowledgments to like the people important to me. That was really hard. And then like my final lines, because you know that much, and so um, but it was it was amazing, and so it's it's a little weird though, because friends will pull up to a thing and they're like, Do you hear what I'm listening to? And it's like my own voice, and I'm like, so that's a little creepy. Um but okay. Um, and my client parents are like put it on in the car, and kids are like, Oh my gosh, it's case casey. I'm like, let's not listen to that anymore. So yeah, yeah. So it was really great. Nashville Audio Productions, big fan.

Katie 11:54

Nice, that's great. Um, so a lot of this is also focusing on resilience, and for a lot of us um in our 40s or approaching 40s, that's something that we've had to learn the hard way. So, how would you define resilience?

Defining Real Resilience

SPEAKER_01 12:12

Yeah, I I would say um, because I it's one of my favorite ways to be described is like resilient. And I think I have just always had this like sheer determination to like not let them get you down. Because I think we have two choices, and like sometimes we we say kids are resilient and they're fine, and then like, but what are the adults in there being talking about? Like their childhoods, and so I think that like true resilience means like getting the skills that you need, um like over time, and it's a constant like evolution of that process to get skills that you need to be a healthier human, like you know, how you show up in relationships, how you show up on podcasts, like how you show up to the world, um, as opposed to these horrible things happen and then putting them in a box and pretending like they don't exist because those things they come out sideways anyway. You know, when you know when like sometimes older than us generation are saying things like I didn't have counseling and I'm fine. Are you though? Are you because like I I don't I don't know if we interviewed the people around you if they would say that because there's some challenging things so I think resilience is actually because everybody has heart stuff, right? Because like if you've been outside, like everyone has heart stuff, like to varying degrees, and I think comparative suffering is dumb. So I'm not saying like you know, whatever, but like that you are like that you own the truth of your story and you do healing work to be a healthier human to show up in your life, as opposed to I survived because like what are your choices?

Katie 14:07

Right. Um, so along those lines, what are some misconceptions with being strong or resilient? Because I know that there's a lot of people that could be like, oh, that person is so strong, but then are they also being resilient? Like, are they able to be resilient, or are you just seeing that that um, like you say, like they just kind of they don't necessarily cope with it, they just put it in a box and move on because they're strong, and then instead of being resilient and using their coping mechanisms to deal with it and work through it?

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yeah, I mean, I would say because I my mom died, I just turned 22. When my mom died of breast cancer, really long bottom breast cancer, and I she was my last remaining family member. So, like I'm an only child, like nobody else related to me. And so people constantly stated things to me, like you know, when my mom died, like I was I was a youth leader at a camp when she died and got the emergency phone call that no one you know wants to get, like when you're in the middle of forest of California, and um I was I was I was in charge of kids, um, and so high schoolers, and so it was important to me to like put on like a face because I was 22, right? Like, and so everybody kept saying, like, oh my god, because I because I'm ridiculous and decided to stay at like the three more days and then leave, you know, because I'm just like I have responsibilities ridiculous, and so I got all this feedback about oh my god, you're so strong. Like you're so strong. And um first of all, I'm in shock, right? Um, but like second of all, like what what are my what are my choices? You know what I mean? Like, and so I like I but like that fed my ego that I was like, yes uh, yeah, you know, like you wear it as a badge. Yeah, like and um you know I'd be I was on like the ropes course and you know everybody knew um because like you know people and so like from like tree to tree they'd be like wow but meanwhile I'm dying inside like I wanna fall apart, you know, and so I think um I I would say that my my skills of like resilience became more when I actually dealt with the feelings and emotions about the death of my mom um and kind of came through and continue to come through because like you know, it was my mom died the same year as September 11th, it was like forever. Um and so I've had lots of therapy um to talk about that, and so I would say like I've come out on the other side able to freely talk about it and to own the truth of my story again, as opposed to like just the things that happen to me don't make me resilient. Like it's like my ability to cope with my thing.

Strong vs Resilient: Shock And Grief

Katie 17:27

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Um, what would be one small practice you would recommend for people trying to build emotional resilience?

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Yeah, I would say like I think so much healing work has come to like being in the healing community and friendships that talk about the real thing as opposed to like you know, like really service, like, yeah, I'm fine. Um, I used to get called out in college a lot by friends, like they're like, We've spent this whole dinner you're asking me questions and you haven't talked about you. I'm like, oh that's weird, like that wasn't intentional. Um I think that it's important to really practice taking off the mask with safe people, like sharing something like important that you feel like you know, like in a lot of the stuff we do this in our close relationships, but like to varying degrees. I would say a good practice is like like owning something that you maybe like have been like shoving down, or like say you know, I think and and I think our world is getting better at at this practice, right? Like you know, being authentic. Um, but you know, like the moms out there that are like sometimes I really hate my kids, like you know, and like actually saying that to a person as opposed to like oh I I love the little darlings all the time, you know, just to be real, like that that that's like that that makes sense where you feel that. So I would say practicing with like say friends about stuff that you have maybe pushed down with shame.

Small Practices: Safe People And Unmasking

Katie 19:11

Yeah, and that's that's also in in the same thing when you say uh, you know, kind of the unmasking being able to recognize the people that will hold that space for you and that will understand you and maybe not try and fix it, but they'll just be able to listen because there's a lot of people out there, and I've actually done it as a young age, and now that I've been in podcasting and doing a little bit more of stuff, I'm like, man, I was probably supposed to be a therapist because I remember in middle school there was a girl that needed help and assistance, like just talking to somebody, and her and I were not good friends, but I'm just a listener, and so I recognized it, and I actually got In trouble for this, but I was like, it was worth it. I I took her, she was walking up to um what's called seminary here. For those of you that might not know it, it's like a church release type thing. You get like a I don't want to say a free period, but it's a period to go do, and other religions have some sort of equivalent of it where you go and you do like Bible study for one of the periods of school, and that's where she was headed. And so we walked up there and I asked one of the teachers if I could use their office to talk to her because she was going through this mental breakdown type of a thing, and I just listened to her and they were like, Yeah, that's totally cool, that's fine. I ended up getting in trouble. I was actually I was on the peer leadership team in middle school, and I thought that I was gonna be able to like help and assist with youth and counseling or something like that's kind of what I think I assumed it was gonna be. Um, and anyway, and I we were supposed to have a meeting that day, and I instead of going to that meeting, I went and helped this girl. And anyway, when I explained what it was because I was marked absent and I wasn't in either place that I was supposed to be in, they were like, Where did she go? And I explained to them what had happened. They were like, Well, you didn't go about it the right way, so I got detention and I was like, whatever, it was totally worth it because I was helping somebody who was in need, whatever. And so, um, but that's one of those things where I I wasn't trying to fix anything for her, I was just there to listen. And so that's always something for people to be able to make sure that they're also, you know, if somebody like I I've told some of my friends lately because they're going through different aspects of their lives, I'm like, I'm here to listen, whatever weird story you think it is, and I won't judge you for whatever it is. I just want you to know that you can talk to me about anything, and and everybody needs a friend like that. Like, you always want to be able to have a friend that isn't gonna judge you because you're like, I just need to get this off my chest. And it's very overwhelming as an adult, as um, you could be a parent or a single parent or whatever your life looks like. You you want to not be alone in that, and you just sometimes it is just telling somebody else takes a huge weight off of your shoulders. I know for me, like if I'm feeling something and I either tell my husband something or I call my mom or my one of my best friends, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I need to tell you the stupid thing that just happened, or whatever I'm emotional about at that time, and you know, it it helps a lot is just saying that thing out loud.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

Um, but anyway, but I I yeah, no, I I think sometimes when those kind of things happen, like you're getting like in trouble. It's like exercises and missing the point, you know, like it makes me think of like lay Miz, you know, like stealing like food for the hungry, you know, like okay, like, but they were hungry, you know, and so I I feel like that it's really important that we do have those people, and sometimes people don't. Like, I meet with um a mom who uh tells me things because she's like I can tell no one in my life, and I and I hurt for her that like I'm happy to be that safe space, but I wish that there were people that like she could feel connected to that she could call it technique and be like you know, this thing's happening in my family, and so it's like but at least there I'm someone, um but I think that I I I hurt for her a lot because it it feels like how she sh has to show up is like everything's fine, and I remember being that person.

Katie 23:44

I think there was also I don't want to say back in the day, but there was you know that picture perfect, this is how your family is supposed to look, and it's and it needs to be prim and proper or whatever, and so there was a lot of visual that you know the really old school kids are to be seen and not heard, and that type of a thing, and we've obviously gradually gotten away from that. Um, I remember even just going to like my grandparents' house, we weren't allowed to be like super rambunctious in the house, but we could like go outside or in like the basement um where the TV was and be a little bit louder than on the main floor. We were supposed to be, you know, kind of docile or reverent or whatever. Um, and which is fine because they had a certain atmosphere that they wanted to um emit and you know they wanted to be able to connect with each other as adults. That was kind of their adult time to talk, and they didn't want the kids to interrupt it. But it was like we're kind of all there.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

And I was like, we're we're still gay.

Katie 24:49

Yeah, and I was the only, I was typically the only girl that was there, and I had all my boy cousins, and so they'd be outside doing rambunctious stuff. So there were a lot of times where I was just you know inside observing, or I I feel like one of my favorite things to do is just sit and watch people like go to a well, maybe not now, but would go to a mall or an amusement park and sit and just watch people. That's like one of my I like to be observant, so I I feel like I did a lot of that um as a child, but it it was definitely um like a learning experience, you know, and the way the way that you see, like even for you that's listening right now, if you think about like backing your childhood, how maybe your parents raised your grandparents raised your parents, you know, and how everything's kind of changed a little bit and were a little bit more open and talking and freeing. Um, and you know, that's that's great. I mean, I I let my kids to a certain point be a little bit rowdy and rambunctious because they are kids and they're happy and they're smiling, and it's like I feel like I don't want to be that stifling person that's like stop it, stop it, stop it. Um, because that happened to me a lot. So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

I I like I it's really important to me when um kids like spill stuff in my office, you know, that like I like I make them think it's not a big deal because I was raised in the house where you can't spill, can't get dirty. And like sometimes I catch myself if a kid gets like glitter glue on them. I'm like, how is your mom gonna respond to that? And I'm like fine. Um, and so like it's like a bit of reparenting myself every time there's a spill because I'm like, oh no. I know you're gonna be told that you're selfish and not taking care of your clothes. And so I like I I I noticed that um about like my childhood about like, yeah, things spill. Yeah, I have a tie pen at all times, it's fine.

Spills, Shame, And Reparenting

Katie 26:49

Yeah, even as adults, I'm like my mom would constantly spill on herself, and it's like it's never gonna not happen. Spills happen. And and my thing, like I I think when I started, I guess, having toddlers and kids growing up and them spilling, like I had to start to recognize it's gonna happen and you know, calm down. And and so I did, and then I started getting upset because they would try and hide that they spilled something and then they wouldn't tell us. And then I was like, oh my gosh, it's so much worse now. It's like right. It's like if you would have just told me right away, like I'm like, we're not mad that you spilled, we know it's gonna happen. It's just it's a little upsetting to us when you don't tell us right away because then we can't clean it up well enough. Like, you know, things seep into the carpet or whatever, like, or they try and hide it or clean it up themselves, which sometimes it smears and it gets worse. And uh anyway. So just the just the learning of it, but you know, it does, it does happen. So, and we actually the house that we live in, we've never replaced the carpets in the 15, 16, 16 years we've lived in it because we knew our kids would destroy the carpet, and one day when they were older, we would replace it. So I'm I'm at that point where I'm just like, we're gonna replace it one day. We're gonna replace it one day.

SPEAKER_01 28:11

You're like, it's fine for now.

Katie 28:13

I mean, I literally I have paint on the walls because during lockdown we let our kids paint, and I was just like, whatever, we can cover it up with paint or whatever. Like it was just like it's just walls, it's not permanent.

SPEAKER_01 28:29

So you're like, it's lived in and something to make us all not go crazy.

Katie 28:34

Yeah, exactly. Um, okay, so Stacy, you've spent so much time working with children and youth that I imagine that's given you a unique perspective on how we develop emotionally. What have kids taught you about healing and growth?

What Kids Teach Us About Healing

SPEAKER_01 28:50

Yeah, I think it and it and it actually ties into the spilling conversation about covering things up. Um, because I I think that I value so much the kids that come in and when you're like nine and ten. Can you imagine like being honest about your feelings and not burying it like with years and years later? Um, I think like because my hope is that I'm helping kids not have as hard of a time as they become adults, it's still gonna be a hard time because um, but that like dealing with it before you like covered up with like years of unhealthy coping, um, or um making it so that like you shove it in a corner. Because I always I always say to kids the thing with the stuff that goes up is that it's kind of living and breathing. So this horrible thing that you're trying to hide, part of the problem if we don't talk about it, is that it's like you bury like some food in your room and you start to cover it up with laundry, like it'll work for a little bit, but eventually it's gonna smell and other people are going to notice. And then it gets cold, and then it's you have a bigger problem because now it's sink and you have to like fix that. And so I I'm like, so it's better just to talk about the thing now before you have to make it feel like you need to start to cover it up. And so I I think that it I love when kids, you know, I'd be like I have kids that I'll see later today that are like talking about really hard things, and I think it's going to make them healthier adults, and so I respect so much parents that bring their kids to counseling or parents that have open, honest communication with their kids, like you're giving them such a better chance at being healthier adults.

Katie 30:59

Are there any patterns that you've noticed how today's youth are struggling and what that says about the world we're living in, which I know we've kind of alluded to, you know, if we go outside there's problems everywhere.

Today’s Youth: Lockdowns And Anxiety

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Well, yeah, I um sometimes I've been on a couple podcasts um with other countries and I'm like, yeah, the pro and I was like, oh, some of these problems are uniquely American. Right. Um because I, you know, I read about in my book and I talk about every day, um, you know, like school violence, and I actually am in the same school district as like the latest high school shooting in Evergreen. And so I see people impacted by that particular shooting. And I think that some of the problem with like kids today is that they are so used to what it's like to go to school and have lockdown drills, um, that that's just natural, and I just think that it shouldn't have to be. Um, and that there's a chapter that I it's called um hashtag ultra neon dysregulation. And I talk about, you know, like start with the childhood vegas, but um that I think that it's so hard for kids to see that like it it was different years ago because they'll ask me, you know, what what was it like for you in the school shooter kid? I'm like, yeah, that's not you know, like I have a a client who is sharing that it's hard for her during her like you know, female times every month to decide whether to go to the bathroom and take care of it because if you go to the bathroom and that's when a lockdown draws you're locked out of your classroom. And so trying to decide between like having a mess on one's person or like being unsafe in a school shooting, like that's not normal. Like that's unnormal. And so and so it's really hard as a clinician um in those kind of um moments because you know, like a lot of times anxiety is like stuff that is maybe unrealistic, but not not in today's day and age with today's kids. That's a fair that's a fair piece of you know, and so you're not helping them like cope with reality that like you know that that's actually not a fear, that's a value. That's valid. And so I I think it it's really hard for kids today with some of the things that there were and social media, like we could talk about that for a long time, but some of the things that our childhoods didn't have, they didn't.

Katie 33:59

Yeah, I remember um because Columbine had happened a few years before I was I I I can't remember if I was in middle school anyway.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

It was 99.

How Adults Can Truly Support Kids

Katie 34:12

Yeah, so I was in middle school and almost to high school, and I remember um in middle school there was what it was a bomb scare, and we ended up having to be evacuated and gone to a local high school, and what turned out what had happened was is somebody at least this is the version that I got, so I don't know if this is actually factual or not, but what I had been told was that somebody had like a tape recorder, like a uh anyway, they had like a radio like not a radio, just like a tape recorder of some sort, like a audio, and they had it in their locker and they had some other stuff in there. I don't know if it was for a class or whatever, but like a chord was sticking out of their locker, and the tape thing was like clicking, because you know, like if you're playing a tape and it back in the day, for those of you that don't know what a tape is, and versus a CD versus just you know going on Spotify or whatever your music comes from, um you would press play on a thing, and then it if the tape ended, it would click, it would click, it would keep clicking, and so I guess the tape had ended of whatever it was, and it was clicking, and somebody saw it, and anyway, panic ensued. They thought that maybe there was like a bomb in somebody's locker, apparently, and so we had to be evacuated. So that was my first personal experience with that, which obviously to this day was very traumatizing. I was in gym class, we had to be evacuated outside, we were in our dirty gym clothes, we went to the high school, and I was like so embarrassed. But having looked back on it like later as an adult and things like that, I was like, oh my gosh, that was actually really scary. Yeah. And there was one other time that I remember as an eighth grader, I think it was in eighth grade, we got locked down for another incident um that we kind of took seriously, but not, I mean, the school locked down, but it's it's not like it would be today. Um, but yeah, we weren't allowed to leave classes or anything like that. But that was, you know, so I've I've had a couple of instances. I know my husband hasn't had any. I don't think I had any in high school, luckily, but you know, my oldest son, who is now 15, I remember in one of his earliest classes in school, he had told me, I think it was him, I can't remember if it was him or his teacher, had said that he was like the person in charge to make sure that everybody got in like the closet for their basically active shooter drill. And so I like the teacher, you know, did that and he was and it was like he's like six or seven, like I, you know, and I'm like, oh my gosh, you know, because it's one of those things that I don't think as a parent sending my kids to school really thought about that, but it was also one of those things I'm glad that they have a plan in place, and I think that we talked to I feel like we talked to him a little bit about it and how you know it's not likely that it can happen, but it does happen. Obviously, now we see it a lot more and more, but it was one of those things where we had a little bit of a conversation with him about it. I don't think we've had a conversation with any of our other kids. I think he was more curious about it, and I feel unfortunately a lot of the kids are just used to it. Like I I was I would get extremely nervous, and I'm still extremely nervous about like earthquake drills. And we had an earthquake um actually during lockdown, basically March 17th of 2020. I rem I'm pretty sure it was March. Beginning. March 17th or 18th. It was right when everything was literally shutting down, and um we had an we had an earthquake that morning in our area in Utah, and I am absolutely afraid of earthquakes. And I think it was also because we would talk about the big one all the time here, and so I had major anxiety over that. I still do. Um, but after that happened and we had all the like little earthquakes after it, the aftershocks or whatever they're called, um, then I started having like phantom earthquakes, like it would just be sitting there and I would think that the house was shaking, and it wasn't. And so I finally figured out. I I can't remember if it was on my own or if I learned it from somewhere else, but I was like, you just need to find something that would move if the house was shaking, if there was an earthquake. And so I, you know, there's certain things depending on where I'm sitting, that I would go, I look straight to something that I know would be shaking. Usually the blinds are like a cord, and I'll I'll stare at it and see if it moves. And if it doesn't move, I'm like, okay, you're making this up. Like it's fine. Like anyway, so that was like my coping mechanism that I had for something like that. But um again, it's it's pretty sad that um, you know, the the kids have to deal with that um those those drills and things. So just knowing. Oh, I was just gonna say, just knowing my personal anxiety over just having the earthquake drills.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Yeah, that day of the Evergreen shooting, um, a kid, a young kid, came in and said, Did you know that there's the shooter at Evergreen? And it wasn't a bad guy shooter, it was an angry kid shooter, that kind. Like what? You're younger than eight. Yeah. Come on. And like just the fact that that that's just that's their reality, that they don't know different, that that's like It's just really not normal. Like it's really not. And so, you know, that alone, like your fear with the earthquake, like they they feel like similar things all the time about like what they wear to school, if that'd be noticeable, like if their shoe wear um can help them run. Like I the stuff I hear all all day. And it's like it just it I just have very big fe big feelings about it.

Katie 40:28

So how can adults, whether they're parents, teachers, or just part of the community, better support the mental health of the next generation?

SPEAKER_01 40:37

Yeah, I think that um it's important that we help kids feel seen and heard. And I think sometimes um we try to fix things because we want them to be better, um, but that doesn't help kids like feel validated in their own experience. So I think like if a if a kid feels like you know, and sometimes I think it's good to ask them, do you want me to hear you or do you want feedback? I think that question is always a really good one. Um, because I sometimes kids shut down if they feel like they're gonna kind of be like mansplained, if you will. Um, and they're like, you know, they're just gonna say, um, don't like just don't talk to them, you know, if like a a kid is like mean to them. And they're like, yeah, well, I have to, because we're like in second grade together, you know? And so I think that um really setting a precedent to the kids like that, like I I want you to be able to come to me without feeling like I'm gonna give you a five-step plan. And you know, sometimes like w it would be really helpful if they had a five-step plan, but like it's not going to help them if they're not gonna enact that. And if they're just gonna be like, Well, you're just gonna, you know, tell me that like it's an obvious problem. So I I think I I have a kid that tells me all the time, this is the only place where I go where I don't feel interrupted. Oh, and like that's and that's hard, and they have fantastic parents, fantastic parents, and so it's not like you know, I don't want anyone and that that's what's really important in my book called With Love, because I don't want it to be coming from like a place up here that it's like a place like you know, that hey, like supporting like kids, like it's a team effort. Um, so I I just think like if kids feel like you're a safe place to come to without feeling like you're going to fix them, um, that that is almost everything.

Doing Your Own Work As A Helper

Katie 42:44

So one of the things um that a lot of people need to do is kind of like doing your own work. So what do you feel like doing your own work really can mean for people?

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Yeah, I know like for me that when I meet with my therapist, well, and sometimes she says good things that I'm like, oh, I'm gonna take that. Um, but I feel like me showing up as healthy as I can be, like being, you know, just like an integrated human, um, is is helping my clients exponentially. You know, that like if they're like, have you ever felt like insecure? I'm like, are you kidding? Like, yeah, yeah. Um, because obviously, like I like I don't share with kids like the details of my story, but being able to like own my own humanity is like helping them own theirs. And so I'll like I'll bring a parent in with like a kid is like ashamed about something, and um they're like I wish I could tell my parents I'm like we can tell them together, and it's like you know, something that on a a scale is perhaps here, and um so I'll say to the parent, has there ever been like in front of the kid, has there ever been a time where you felt embarrassed about something, and they're like yeah, and the and the kids like, oh, like my parents are human too, you know, and that like because I think we want kids to think that we're so shiny and like the ideal, and really that's not what helps them. I think what helps them is knowing that we have the human experience too, that it's hard to be a human.

Katie 44:27

And why do you think so many of us resist emotional work, especially near midlife?

SPEAKER_01 44:36

I mean, I think it's hard to be vulnerable, like it's it it's really hard because I mean we live in a society that like is performance-based and success-based, and so we I think we wanna always appear as our best self, but I have found that my best self is my most honest self. You know, that it is not um that I have it all figured out, um, it's that I am figuring it out. See that I did that? Like that even I that I'm that I'm in process too, that there's not an arriving. And I think we were presented with a story that that's what you that you somehow arrive at a spot, and then we keep trying that, but it keeps changing like distance the spot. Um and so I I think I think we all wanna we all wanna appear as our very best self, and we think that perhaps like by our 40s that we should have. Um but but I like I told one of my best friends the name of this top title, and she said, Oh nice, there are people who figure it out in their 40s, good for them.

Signs Of Unhealed Stuff And Defensiveness

Katie 45:50

See, and that's the point of this podcast is we're not I'm I'm sure that in 10 years it'll be rebranded as 50 and figuring it out because it we probably still won't have anything figured out, but you know, we can definitely learn from each other's experiences to try and help us figure maybe one thing out. Maybe, maybe a thing or two?

SPEAKER_01 46:14

Yeah, yeah.

Katie 46:15

Um, so what are some signs that we might still be carrying unhealed stuff from our past?

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Um, I think, you know, the thing I notice the most is defensiveness, you know, that like I I I can see like my sharp edges about like about feeling defensive about the thing. Um, and you know, being like, how old do I feel like in this conversation? Um, like is a key indicator, like maybe that's something I should talk to my kids about. So like I think stuff that makes us feel like you know, like this and makes us feel small, um, you know, I I think is like is really hard. I kickbox on a regular basis. I punch bags so I don't punch people. Um and so I want to appear like as physically strong, not small. And so I think like when someone calls me small, like it activates something in me. I'm like, no small, I'm strong. Um, because I'm very I'm pretty short, which is why I'm good with kids, because I'm about the same height as them. And so I know I notice that like what comes up for me, um, you know, like if if someone says something to the tune of what my brain interprets as vulnerable. Like I'm like I'm not vulnerable, I can punch you. You know, and so like when I feel that, then I'm like, Stacey, how old do you feel right now in this conversation? Or with that interaction with some guy that's like patting you on the head, like don't don't touch me. Um I'm like, oh maybe that's an opportunity to talk about.

Katie 48:03

Yeah, because it definitely I definitely know like certain things in my life personally, like I will get defensive when somebody brings something up that obviously you don't want to talk about it, and so you get defensive about it, and and having certain conversations with my with my husband about certain things, he'll bring something up, you know. I've noticed this, and I'll, you know, kind of get upset and then I'll start thinking about it, and then I'm thinking about it, and then I and I walk myself through, well, maybe he's right because this and that and that, yeah, uh-huh, yep, you know, and he's known me most of my life, so it's it's pretty interesting, you know. He'll be like, I think that there's a reason why this behavior happens, and you know, so he'll bring something out, and I kind of am like, I don't know that I really noticed that, and where does that stem from and and different things? And so I don't see a therapist, I see my husband.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

So we can You don't always need a therapist, you need a safe place to land, yeah.

Katie 49:07

And so we'll have these interesting conversations about different aspects of our lives and why certain things like I've I've told him, you know, certain things I'm like, you know, I always envisioned that this was how life was supposed to be because that is how I saw it portrayed to me all the time, not necessarily in real life, but just on TV. And so I don't know. I've talked to some other people where it was just like I thought my life was supposed to be way more dramatic than it has been because that's how everything was. I thought everything was gonna be portrayed as this, you know, all these dramas that were on TV and different things. I thought that's how life was actually for people. Spoiler alert, and good news, it's not usually it's spoiler alert. So um, if you think your life is supposed to be a soap opera, it's not, or a teenage drama, it's not.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

Um yeah, my mom was really into guiding light the soap when I was a kid. I'd walk by and be like, ew, what? Yeah, that's real, real traumatic because it's real traumatic.

Katie 50:17

Yeah. Yeah. Um, so how has your own personal growth evolved through your career as a therapist and an author? Because I know it all kind of intertwines with itself.

Being A Human Clinician And Credibility

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Yeah, I mean, I think like, you know, it's it's interesting, like since my my book has come out, um, I met with like a teenager um Ann that I've seen for a long time. And she was like 10 minutes in, she's like, so I listened to your book, and I'm like, okay, um, you know, like, you know, what's it out to you? And I didn't want to spend a session talking about my book, but like I was like, you know, it's out there, I can't control who hears it, reads it, and so I just I just have to own it and be like, you know, I I am constantly in process and like you know, saying that there's just there's not a re I used to think that if my story people knew my story, um, or even parts of my story, it would disqualify me as a clinician and they'd be like, oh she's too much stuff. Um, but I found the opposite, you know, that like I I think that if I w if I wasn't dealing with my things, that would that would be alarming, you know, like if everyone knew the things like somehow, some news article came out of all the things, but I wasn't healing doing my healing work, it you know, online there's some concern. But I think what I've discovered is that it actually makes me more approachable um and more credible that I know what I'm talking about from both a clinician standpoint um and as a survivor.

Midlife Peace, Chaos, And Boundaries

Katie 52:01

Yeah, because it definitely you're definitely able to unfortunately relate to people on different levels depending on what what they come to you with because of all the different things that you did unfortunately experience during your childhood. And so it's it's interesting that I having listened to um and seen a lot of documentaries, I know that I I told you previously about how I've kind of been looking into the documentaries and some podcasts about the troubled teen industry um and listening to people's stories and things like that, and that a lot of these people that went through some of these scenarios, which is only a small portion of your story, um, is is and I'm trying to find I I want to make sure I word this correctly, um, is that you guys, not all of you, but most of you want to help people, and so you've turned your um traumas into good, and that you want to help the other people because you didn't have somebody there for you. So you want to be that person for those people that you didn't have because they weren't there and available for you when you were dealing with all of the things that you unfortunately had to deal with, and that is amazing because it's it's an uh it's a full circle thing, I guess you could say, and it's very honorable because there's a lot of people who would just you know not do the work and dwell on the things and maybe woe is me type of a thing. This is what I went through. Um, because I have um known people that have had that up until they decided to actually do the work, um, where they had kind of that mentality, but it's it's amazing that you're able to channel that into that work because it's so important, especially now with like we've discussed in what I've read in your book, all the different things that the kids now have to deal with way more than what we had to deal with, especially in this digital age, because it's it's a lot for for kids to consume and be surrounded by and to deal with, and they're getting at it from all sorts of angles, you know, and so it's amazing that um you've decided to go into that line of work and done all the work for that, and again, you're still working on yourself continually. Like it's not like it's not like there's a finish line for you to go through all of that work and here's your medal because you completed it. It's like it's always something that you'll be working on, like um, you know, for addicts, it's not like they're always once an addict, always an addict. It's never, you know, they they're an addict every day, whether they're consuming or not. It's just the struggle to not have to do that. So whether they're sober, if they've been sober for um, you know, 30 years, they're still technically an addict. It's just they're not consuming their that type of a thing. So it's just a a behavior that they're working on. Um Okay, so sorry, I kind of was a little bit more long-winded than I No.

SPEAKER_01 55:33

Like it but yeah, I like appreciate you saying that because sometimes like I'll see a documentary or something, and they're like they had a traumatic childhood and that's why they killed people. And I'm like, okay, but like also lots of us have had traumatic child, you know, like it it bothers me and like that that's like an excuse. Obviously, it's like you know, there's there's reason it's stemming from pain, but like yeah, like you make choices um, you know, and it doesn't it doesn't have to choose that path. You don't have to. And like you can't you can, and I'm sure that um they're in a a lot of pain, people who you know make like horrific choices, um, but also come on.

Katie 56:21

Yeah. Yes, because we we definitely all have choices of of our own free will and what actions we're going to take in response to whatever external factor there might have been, and and you don't have to be repeating the cycle of abuse if that's what it is or or whatever. Um so I say that your 40s are a weird mix of peace, chaos, and clarity, and sometimes all in the same week. How has this chapter of your life shown up for you personally?

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Yeah, I was uh thinking about this the other day, and I was like, you know, I love the fact that I'm at an age where I'm like, you can think what you want about me. Obviously, there's moments where it's not always like that. Um, but I was talking to a middle schooler um on Monday who's just like horrified about what other people think because you know, middle school. And I was just like thinking how happy I am to not have that mindset anymore. That I'm just like, whatever, like whatever. And so I like they and they told us this, right? Like, when you you'll get to an age where you won't like care about it, you know, like, but I care so much uh because I am 13. Um, and so I love that I'm I'm at a point in my life um where I care a little less about what other people think, and I I I like I finally understand the um you don't have to win everyone over because I think I grew up with that mentality of like you must make everyone like you so much at all times, and now I'm like meh, like we're not all we're all people, you know, like the whole like you can be like you know the sweetest orange of all time, but someone could not like orange juice, and like there's nothing you can do, so I think that level of security, um, I feel like and I feel like that's age.

What We’re Still Figuring Out

Katie 58:27

Yeah, it definitely I I I know some people still feel like they're in high school or middle school and are still trying to impress other people, and I know a great group of people who are like, this is me, and if you haven't accepted me for me by now, then you know, this is who I am, and you know, whatever that type of a thing. Um where did that okay? Um, so how do you stay grounded and take care of yourself emotionally when your work is so focused on others? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 59:03

Well, I think the the the funny thing is that um it's so much easier to support other people than to do our own work. So it's not hard for me to like to to show up um and to support other people. You know, one of my dear friends was like, I I'm sorry to dump this on you because you listen to hard stuff all day long. I'm like, I don't actually listen to like K-pop demon hunter thoughts all day long and Minecraft stories. Um, but it's and it's not like it's not all day long. Um, but like that's not it's not hard to hold space. Um, I think it's like it it it's harder to do your own work, frankly. Um, and so I think like it's important that you know, I kickbox, um, that I like I do regular self care. I think a common misconception is that like I'm an extrovert. I would consider myself an ambivert. Um Um, right there in the middle and that like I need like definite time alone. And so I think to have a good balance that I that I'm honest with my capacity um of what I can hold and uh my caseload and enough time to hear my own thoughts is really important in like supporting others.

Katie 1:00:24

Yeah, definitely, because you can't help others if you're not helping yourself as well, because you won't have that emotional capacity to be able to hold that space for them while you're listening to it, and you may not be as in tuned as you need to be, because if you're not doing your own work, you might be thinking about your own problems and things if you haven't been working on them, and then you're not fully in it um for that time period and not able to actually help the the kids and the people that you are trying to help. So that's great that you're able to find that balance.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:01

Yeah, like I I like I hear that like I would be of no use to anyone like if I burn out, you know, like I'm not taking new clients and I I haven't for a while because there's there's only so much like after school spots which everybody wants. Um, but also capacity, you know, like I don't want I think it when I was a new clinician, I'm like I can do all the things and now I'm like I can do a lot, but like there has to be a boundary because like that's not fair to my existing clients, a if they can't find a spot. But it's not fair to them if I'm just like uh-huh, yeah. You know, like I don't want to be that guy. Yep. So it's it's important that I'm honest about my humanity, which is like irritating because I want to do all the things at all the times, but I cannot. Which I think is part of the 40s and figuring it out.

Resources, Links, And Closing

Katie 1:01:54

Exactly. Um, so Stacey, my favorite question to wrap it up with is what are you still figuring out personally?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:04

I am still figuring out like areas of opportunity, you know, that like how we referenced earlier about like you don't arrive. Um I because I feel like the more that I realize like the areas that are challenging, the more I can help other people. Than to be like, yeah, like I feel jealous, I feel I feel this, I feel that. Um and so that I don't present to the kids that I see um someone who has it figured out. So it's that it's the verb, right? Of figuring it out.

Katie 1:02:43

Yeah. Yeah, because we I mean we all are trying to figure things out together, and it's more fun to do it with people than to do it alone because feedback sometimes is great, or having a sounding board, like just having a support person there and knowing that you're not going through it alone is great. And I know that especially going back to your story, um, you know, again, go find her book and we'll link it in the show notes again, um, with love from a children's therapist. But it, you know, there's a lot of things that you had to go through alone, even when you expressed concern over some pretty major things that you that you went through things alone, and you know, I I I don't want to say my own experience is similar to yours because it's not, but I did have an instant in my life where I told somebody that I felt depressed, and I was told that somebody like me could not be depressed, and that is just not true, and so for several years I was very complicated over that answer, and um, as an adult, I did a lot of work through it, and it was one of those strong moments myself where I was like, Well, I'll show them, and so I put on like an armor and did you know the things that I thought I needed to do to be not depressed. People that are depressed will put on a mask and a face and they will pretend, they will act, and it's I can definitely attest to it because I've been there, and I know that there are a lot of people who are going through depression, and it's obviously not anything easy, depend especially depending on the scales of it. But when you're trying to admit as a I was a tween at that time, actually, I was a teen, a young teen, but you know, expressing how I felt and what I thought and not having that met, I also think that it was one of the reasons why I also wanted to be an advocate and helping other people was because my concerns were not met on my end. And so, like you, I wanted to be a person that would be able to listen and help others and be there for them. And um I I totally feel that. So, Stacy, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and heart today. Your book is such a gift. If you're interested in it, please make sure um to find it. It's called With Love from a Children's Therapist: Lessons I Have Learned Along the Way. It's by Stacy Schaefer. Um, you can find her at authorstacys.com. That will be linked in the show notes, or you can listen to the audiobook. Um, it's on uh, like I said, Spotify Premium, and you said it's also available on Audible, which I have an Audible thing, so I could totally get it there. There you go. Um, if you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to follow 40-ish and figuring it out and share it with a friend who's doing their own emotional work too. And Stacy, do you have um social media pages other than your website that you want to share as well?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:59

Yes, my Instagram is Hope Restore. I mean some word once upon a time I wanted um to name my practice that, but I was told Stacy Schaefer counseling is catchy. So Instagram, Hope Restored, Facebook, Stacy Schaefer. I just started a TikTok, so uh it's author Stacy Schaefer, but we'll we'll see how that goes.

Katie 1:06:19

Yeah, I'm in I'm I've had a TikTok, I think, for a year, and I posted like five things on it or something. So I get it.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:26

Yeah, it's an interesting world, dot dot dot. But um Instagram, hope restore Stacy Schaefer on Facebook.

Katie 1:06:34

Awesome. And all of that information will be linked in the show notes. So until next time, keep learning, keep growing, and keep figuring it out. Bye guys.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:42

Thank you.

Katie 1:06:52

40-ish and figuring it out is produced and edited by me, Katie Collicker. Sound mixing, also me. We're a very efficient one-woman show over here. The music for this episode was created using the Suno app. Special thanks to Suno for providing licensed royalty-free music through their platform. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you in the next episode.