Day 194: Sin Confrontation 2 (with Dustin)

July 13 
Today's Connected Passages: 

• Proverbs 1:20-33; 17:10; 27:5-6 
• [2 Corinthians 7:1-12] 
• Proverbs 28:23 
• Matthew 7:1-6 
• [Luke 6:37,41-42] 
• Matthew 18:15-20; 21:11-12  
• Mark 11:15-18 
• [Psalm 69:9 
• Isaiah 56:1-8 
• Jeremiah 7:9-11] 
• Luke 17:1-4; 19:45-48
• John 2:13-17 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:07

Welcome to the Canon Connected, where we read the connections, see the connections, and study the connections of the Bible. Thank you so much for joining us here on day number 194 of the Canon Connected, and we are in the middle of a three-day study on what I called in the reading plan confrontation. And I have a special guest with me. I'll introduce him in a second. Although if you've been with us since the very, very beginning, he doesn't really need an introduction. But yesterday we just kind of put our ankles in the water, so to speak, on the subject of sin confrontation in the Bible. And today and tomorrow, we're diving right in. I mean, all the way in over our heads, okay, so to speak. And then at the same time, I hope we are, you know, able to breathe. Because uh these passages, they are hard to practice. I don't think they're that hard to understand. But I had asked Dustin to come on with me today because I do think this is a subject he does understand. And I know he's not into flattery, and just as I've said with Chris and Kayla and others who've been on here, um, this is something he's become very passionate about. He and I have had a lot of discussions with it. We've talked through, you know, and if you, if this is done correctly, you know, in the context of Christian relationships, church or or otherwise, it needs to be done with humility and love and in according to what the Bible says. And this is the kind of thing that I, you know, after talking with Dustin about this for, you know, months and up to probably years at this point, a couple of years, I would guess. I'm very impressed with his understanding of it, his ability to communicate it. Uh others are as well. He's been asked to preach at churches on this on this topic. So, Dustin, I think it's fair to say that this is something that churches either don't practice well at times or don't practice at all, Christians individually, and even, you know, just as a body of believers. And so, just from as an opening question, just as a as a as a starting point for this, uh, what would you say are the most important things that Christians should know biblically about confrontation of somebody who's in sin and has not repented yet?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah, well, I think the biggest thing is people think that we should just uh go to church and just keep your mouth shut and just sing the sing the songs and business things, mind your business, put on your Sunday best, and then you go home. You don't mind if some, you know, the kids are screaming in the car, they're coming into church, or everybody's having a fit. No, no, no. You keep that business at home. This is this is church now. We we we put on our Sunday best and and we're good people and and this is what we do, you know. And I think that the misconception there is, man, no, we're a family. Like we're one body, we're we're together, we're doing life together. Like that's what Christians do. It's it's really hard to be a Christian if you don't like people. And so we should want to love people because why? That's what Jesus did. Jesus was love. And so when we're in church, when we're um a part of a church body, we are to love each other and we are to help each other out. And sometimes I think that they think love, a lot of people think that love is just patting you on the back and telling you what you want to hear, but that's oftentimes not the case at all. Most of the time, love, the hardest type of love, the deepest type of love is saying something that they don't want to hear, but they need to hear. And so I think that it's not normalized in church. No one likes confrontation, right? And so correct, no one wants it, no one likes it, and so they think confrontation is bad. Man, I can read the Bible and tell you so many times where there was confrontation that it was a good confrontation.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Yes. And that's part of the reason there are three days of readings in this reading plan. And I like how you talked about love because one of the passages for the readings today is Proverbs 27, 5, and 6. It says, An open rebuke is better than hidden love. And I'm willing to bet that if this were written today, the love would have quotations around it because hidden, you know, when you hide things and you don't confront and you just sweep them under the rug, that's not really love. And it says, wounds from a sincere friend are better than many kisses from an enemy. And so the idea that this is the loving thing to do, I think is where our culture probably misses it because we do think love is always affirming and accepting and agreeing instead of, you know, dealing with things that are hard and truly, you know, again, out of love and humility, you can't miss that for Matthew 7. You you you look at yourself first, get the beam out of your own eye, Galatians 6, you come in humility, you know, and acknowledge this could be me, you know, I could be committing this very sin. So I think this misunderstanding of love is probably the the biggest issue and and why this isn't practiced well or practiced at all.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Yeah, I think it's that. And also you said you mentioned Matthew 7. And if you're not familiar with Matthew 7, I don't know if it was in the readings today or not. So judge not that you be not judged. He didn't say don't judge. A lot of people think that. A lot of people said, Oh, he said don't judge, so we're not to judge, God's to judge. No, no, no, that's not what he said. He said, judge not lest you be judged. Because he's saying, for the for with the judgment you pronounce, you will be judged. And with the measure you used, it will be measured to you. So what he's saying is the amount of judgment that you pass on somebody else, it's coming right back at you. Like if I point one finger at you, there's four pointing right back at me. So if I'm gonna judge you, just know that you're gonna be judged the same amount that you judge someone else. And so, and then he goes in and talks about why you see the speck in your brother's eye and don't see the log in your own. What he's saying is check your own sin, check yourself, make sure that you're not one of those hypocrites, because that is why this is this important, this topic is so important today because of the hypocrites in church. I was doing research the other day and it was saying three out of four, or it goes up to like 62% of people that are unchurched, that don't go to church, believe that Christians are hypocrites.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Wow. Why is that? Because this is left unchecked, because we're we we don't want to judge each other, we don't want to keep each other accountable, and it's a huge problem, especially today.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Yes, and uh this is one reason why, again, these these readings are so you know countercultural. One of the ones that I that I I put in there today, too, because I really love this, and this is something, again, I've seen when Dustin talks about it in in this kind of context, on top of what he just said, um, is where his eyes really light up. You know, not that he, I don't think he or I or anybody relishes this. And I was taught this very well in Chicago, by the way. I owe the pastor, pastoral staff I was a part of up there a great, you know, debt from teaching me how to do this, how to do it with humility and love, and to do it because you love the body and you and you don't want sin to run rampant. That's the 1 Corinthians 5 idea. But when Paul talks in 2 Corinthians 7, he says it this way. You know, he says, uh, he says, I am not sorry that I sent that severe letter to you, though I was sorry at first. And that's almost like Paul expressing his human weakness, you know, like we don't want to do this, and we do feel, you know, this fear and trepidation, and even like, oh, I kind of wish I hadn't done that because your your human nature, your sin nature is gonna uh gonna uh deceive you. He says, I am not sorry. He says, Um, when he told us how much you longed to see me and how sorry you were for what happened, how loyal you are to me, I was filled with joy. I'm not sorry that I sent that severe letter to you, though I was sorry at first, for it I know it was painful to you for a little while. Now I am glad I sent it, not because it hurt you, but because the pain caused you to repent and change your ways. It was it was it was the kind of sorrow God wants his people to have. So you were not harmed by us in any way. For the kind of sorrow God wants us to experience leads us away from sin and results in salvation. This is something, again, I've heard you speak to very well. Talk about what the ultimate goal of confrontation is.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, so the ultimate goal, people think that when you're bringing this stuff up, it's like, oh, you just want to hurt me, like you just want to out me, you just want to make me feel bad. That's not it. Like, that's not it at all. The ultimate goal is to love you and to reconcile and make sure that you're whether it's a situation between me and you, whether it's a situation between you and God that I see that's like, hey, you're sinning, you're you're stuck in this unrepentant sin. We gotta pull you that pull you out of this, or hey, we're beefing, you did something I didn't like, and hey, this hurt me when. I I think a lot of times, too. This is a side note here, I'm gonna go off a rabbit track. That's okay, it's all right. I think when when someone does hurt you, instead of talking behind their back, which I you is a sin, you shouldn't do, go to them and say, Hey, you hurt me when? And say, Hey, you hurt me this way, and confront them and say, Hey, how can we work this out? How can we do this? Because that's a biblical, that's what we're supposed to do. And so I I think the biggest thing is that we need to be like the end goal is to reconcile. It's reconciliation, it's to make sure that, hey, we're all one big family in God. You know, we're we're unified. We was reading in Acts, and I just see how unified the church was, you know, and how they were all just actually one body moving forward. And when they had an issue, they just got together and they figured it out and they moved forward. And that's what we need to do.

SPEAKER_01 8:43

Yes. And uh one of the things about you know, about confrontation again, that I know I know it makes us uncomfortable, but when you truly realize that reconciliation is the goal at every step, because you we you and I have studied Matthew 18 together. I when I read Matthew 18, and Jesus says you go to the person first if they don't repent, you take, you know, another person with you, and then if they don't repent, then you get the church involved, which could mean leadership or you know, the board of your church, whatever, or maybe the whole church. I don't know. That's open to interpretation. But one of the things I think it's hard to miss from Matthew 18 when you read it is reconciliation is the goal of every step. None of the goal is again to belittle or to ostracize or anything like that. Not at first. Every, every step of the way, the ultimate goal of of church, you know, confrontation, discipline, whatever you want to call it, should be reconciliation. I think that's very important. And on that note, do you have any other thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 9:37

No, that's good. I I think that if there's any other goal besides reconciliation, then it's probably not biblical.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

Yes. Right? Yes. But let's get to though, because this is something you read also in some of these readings you read today. There were so many times where Paul would say, you know, things like if a person is in this unrepentant sin, don't have anything to do with them. 1 Corinthians 5, maybe the most famous example of that, because he said he handed the guy over to Satan, but he didn't hand him over to Satan again to hurt him or harm him. He did it to save his soul. So even in that sort of situation where, you know, at the end of that book, he's like, somebody's claiming Christianity and they're not living it, don't even eat with them, ostracize them. Even in that case, the ostracization, if that's a word.

SPEAKER_00 10:18

We'll we'll call it a word today.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

When you ostracize somebody or you don't have anything to do with them or you cut them off or whatever, even then the ultimate goal, and then this is not something that's just 1 Corinthians 5 either. It comes up a lot in the New Testament. The idea is you hand them over to Satan for for the salvation of the soul, for their soul, to again cause them to realize they need to repent. So sometimes extreme measures are necessary in this type of thing.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah, well, because going back to the example of the people that three out of four people or four out of five people, I think it's three out of four people, say that that are unchurched, three out of four people that are unchurched, that don't go to don't go to church, aren't Christians, think that Christians are hypocrites. Why? Because they are, because a lot of times they are, and that's why we have to implement 1 Corinthians 5, Matthew 18, those things to say, hey, you're calling yourself one of us, you're calling yourself a Christian, but you're not acting like that. Like your fruits, the things that you're doing in your life, it doesn't reflect being a Christian. Yeah. Like you can say all of those things, but your life doesn't reflect it. You know, it doesn't reflect it. And so that's why it's so important that we do call them out, that we do hand them over to say, that we do not to even eat with that person, as Paul says, to to seclude yourself, to say, hey, you're not one of us. You are not one of us. And what I think that is funny about that story is we see that in 1 Corinthians 5 when he's writing to the Church of Corinth here. And then we see in in 2 Corinthians uh 2, where he's actually talking about some scholars think he's talking about to the same guy, yeah, talking about reconciling him and saying, hey, he got his punishment, he gets it, his heart is back to Jesus. Hey, let him in because we don't want like there's there's two things here. Uh it is there's there's two extremes. We can either ignore the sin and it grows and grows and destroys the church, or we can withhold forgiveness and we can say, No, you sinned against us, we don't want you, you you're out of here. And Satan loves both of those. Yes, that's what we see, Paul, in in both of those in 1 Corinthians 5 and 2nd Corinthians 2. We the same situation, it seems like, it appears like sure. We can say that for this podcast. Yeah, it it seems like, hey, you sinned, okay, you're not one of us, okay, you learned your lesson, okay, now come back, come back to the church, reconciliation. That's the end goal. Reconciliation.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

Yes. And I wanted to take off on something you said in the middle of that there, too, which is also a very important part of this topic, too, because even though the goal, the end goal is reconciliation at every step, even these extreme forms of love, which again, the world's not going to call 1 Corinthians 5 love, even though it is. Sometimes cruelty looks like kindness, sometimes kindness looks like cruelty. It's just it's just how countercultural the Bible is. But you also made the point in that, and when you were talking just then about saying how we have to protect the church, because when you read 1 Corinthians 5, to me, it's impossible not to come away with this idea that we do confront and even sometimes we cut off. Um, the old the uh this word has so much baggage to it. I mean, I almost don't even want to say it. But this is some people used to call this excommunication, and I realize that sounds so, you know, that sounds very heavy and almost judgmental, and that's not what I mean by that. But the idea, again, if we're gonna be honest biblically, is you do cut people off, you do say you're not one of us, you know, because because of this unrepentant sin. But Paul makes the point to say that you if you do not deal with it and you don't cut it off, it will keep spreading. That's the very nature of sin. If you don't cut it off, it's just like you know, gangrene or some disease running through the body, and amputation is often the the the kindest form of of resolution.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

Yeah, and it's not like we treat them bad, it's not like we make fun of them or yell at them or anything like that. No, we treat them as an unbeliever. What do we do to unbelievers? We share the gospel to them. Yeah, we love them, you know, and so we tell them, hey, listen, you're you're not one of us, right? You're not a Christian, right? Because because of these things, because of these, but we love you. And here's the gospel, and you re- we we're praying for you, we're hoping that you get right. We're hoping that you understand this and you understand why we did what we did. We did this because we love you, right? We did it because we absolutely love it. We don't hate you at all. We love you and we want this to be right. That's why we're doing this. And show them the scripture. Like, hey, this is and I think that a lot of times people are scared again for confrontation, they don't want to have the conversation with people, they don't know how to do it, so they just would rather ignore it. Like 1 Corinthians 5. That that's why they got in the situation they were in, because they were ignoring the situation. So don't ignore the situation. I I think that we can be honest and say, hey man, um this is really hard for me. Right. And I've prayed about this, I've been nervous, haven't eaten all day, eaten all day, my stomach's in knots, but I really need to tell you this. I really think that the way you're doing this, or the way you're doing that, or the way you're living, it's not right, it's not biblical. And man, you really need to stop doing that. You really need to stop. And then if he doesn't, then you know, we we do Matthew 18. You know, yeah. Go to the next step. Go to the next step.

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah, and it's interesting you say that. I that that makes me think of this too. I want to be very, you know, uh ambiguous in how it phrases. This was a long time ago, different circumstance for me, you know, different everything. This was probably 20 years ago or more. But I was in a situation where there was an unrepentant sinner in the community I was a part of, and me and this other leader disagreed about how to handle it because he was pointing to Matthew 18 saying, You treat him like a tax collector, we evangelize, you know, lost people. But I was looking at 1 Corinthians 5 and saying, No, I don't want anything to do with him. I'm not gonna, you know, definitely not gonna go over and watch the game with him, but I'm not gonna hang out with him at all. We come to the resolution of, yes, you don't hang out with them just as, you know, a social event, but you can go have lunch with them if your goal is to evangelize. And it was actually a beautiful thing because we worked through conflict and disagreement by finding a middle ground biblically, but it also was, it it reminded me, because I have to admit, I will be completely transparent here and say this part of confrontation is not only hard for me, but I have done it very poorly. Some of this, the other stuff, the Matthew 18, the first steps and you know, 1 Corinthians 5 and Galatians 6, some of that time I've done that correctly, maybe not well, but at least trying to do it biblically. But a lot of times when you get to those la those last steps, I do feel the the pride and the self-righteousness come out, and I'm like, I don't want this person to repent now because I don't like them, you know.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

Yeah, I wrestle with that too, because he said not even to eat with that person. And I think in we got to look at the context of what who he's writing to and what time he's writing to. Yes. Very important. You know, when when he says not even to eat with someone, when you're eating with someone in someone's house, it's not like they're going to out to eat, you know, it's not like they're going to Buffalo Wild Knights or McDonald's or something like that. They they're going into someone's house, and so I don't think family and friends are really invited in to come and and eat at their dinner table, you know. And so that's what he's saying is hey, if you're gonna have like a family dinner with that person, you probably shouldn't if they're if they're doing these things, not even to to have those things. But in in in today's context, I think that you could if you're if you're going at it and you're looking at it from hey, this is a this is a a mission, you know, I'm going on a mission, I'm a missionary in this, I'm gonna spread the gospel to him. I think that's okay. But you have to be able to make sure that hey, this is this going into it, you're like, hey, this is why I'm doing this. You know, this is this is the motive here.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Yeah. And if that's the case, then the it's like like you you always say about uh what's your phrase about the the obedience and the outcome.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yeah, you can't can't judge obedience by the outcome.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Yes, because the there have been times in my life I've known that if if I was gonna go to this, you know, this this step of trying to evangelize somebody that I would consider to be lost, uh sometimes the person will know already know the Bible, and anything you say to them, they're just gonna shoot down. So my my my feeling is well, I'm not gonna do that because it'd be a waste of time. But if it really is the biblical thing to do, even if you do get absolutely shut down from the first syllable, you still should do it. And I admit that's that's something I I don't do very well.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

Well, you never know who's who's watching either. You know what I mean? You never you never know who's watching and who could see, man. I just watched them do a really good example of of this, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:56

Yeah, sure, yes. Well, that was very helpful. I think this is exactly what you know I think this topic needs is a is a different voice other than mine, somebody who's thought about it. Uh, there's one more thing I want to mention just about the readings for today. Are there any other thoughts you just have on this in general, Dustin, before we before we finish?

SPEAKER_00 18:13

I would just say again, uh sometimes you're gonna do this. I mean, I've I've read 1 Corinthians 5 many times and had to act out on this many times, and there's been times where it's been okay, and there's been times where it's been really, really bad. Okay. And again, we cannot judge obedience by the outcome. Meaning we can be obedient and it still may not go good. Like it still may go really, really bad. Okay, but that doesn't mean you failed. Okay. That doesn't mean you're a failure, that doesn't mean you did it wrong. That means it it's just not right. It's not the right time, right? And so so don't get discouraged. Just take Jesus for what he said, take the Bible for what it said and do what it says.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yes, absolutely. And that that is so hard. Again, I was just listening to somebody talk about a pastor talking about how you know he presents, you know, every week a new sermon, you know, and and new applications and truth. And then he's like, Some weeks I just want to go back and revisit last week's sermon because we already know way too much and we don't practice a lot of what we know. And I think this is one area where I mean, I some people could definitely they could tell you all the details and the facts and the data about First Corinthians five, but to actually get to get down and do it a completely different ball game.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

So and I again, I I think this is just so important today because it's really been a burden on my heart and a message about like, hey, are we chasing an image or are we chasing Jesus? Right? Are we just putting up this facade? Are we just saying that we're going to church? Are we raising up our hands and singing the songs and and just going through it and and we're bringing our Bible in and we're highlighting and we're writing notes and doing all of these things so people can see us because we want to look like a Christian. But we're not actually a Christian because we're not doing those things. And that's why the people that are that do have a relationship with Jesus need to know this stuff so we can see, hey man, you're looking like you're doing all of these things, you you're you're saying the right things, you're doing the right things, but behind closed doors, man, you're not a like you're not living this way. You don't have a heart after Jesus, you're not chasing Jesus, you're chasing this image, and that's what helps the hypocrisy in the church is to be able to have this. We have to have this. This is so important.

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yes, and the funny thing about that too is it does seem like when you read from Matthew 18, the idea is it's not public until the last step. So you try to do it as invisibly as possible, in part for the you know, the reputation of the person, but you really try to keep it secret, not that you're sweeping under the rug, but the first couple of steps are, you know, you go to them in private, you know, not you know, in in any sort of public way. And that's that's a sharp contrast to again the image culture that we live in now. So yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

For sure.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

So the uh go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 20:42

No, I was just gonna say, um, I really appreciate this, man. It's been it's been good, it's been fun.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Uh yes, we'll definitely have to have you back on again soon. I need to look at the list of topics and see which one which one would be would be so so ideal for you next because there are there are many. We've we've discussed so much of the Bible these last three years, and uh it was a uh a memory today on social media. Today, three years ago, Dustin invited me to a cardinal game. And we knew each other, and we could say we were friends, but that that was the beginning of all of this, this this relationship we've had and just how much fun. And we've been through ups and downs and highs and lows, and he's been there through it all. The only thing I'll say to close with is that one of the sets of readings for today, and we got into a little bit of tomorrow's, but that was strategic on my part too, because the the first Corinthians five is one of those that he that he and I have talked a lot about and he knows a lot about. But I'll just because I don't want to leave this one hanging, the the Jesus overturning the tables in the temple is part of the reading today. It should be obvious why I included that one, and that's not even like a 1 Corinthians 5 or Matthew 18 thing. Sometimes, you know, confrontation, especially when you're dealing with lost people, it's not the same as 1 Corinthians 5 because you know you you've got to, you know, you've got to handle things in in in a different way. And I don't even know what the application for us is with Jesus and the and the money changers, but I I thought that was close enough to biblical confrontation that I included it. A lot of you know connected readings to that because he quotes from Psalm 69, he quotes from Isaiah 56, he quotes from Jeremiah 7. So that's what all that was about.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

And I think uh uh one thing that's a little bit different when Jesus was flipping tables in the temple, it was he was doing it because he was mad at his own people, at people that were called, you know, that were Christians, and he was flipping those tables and doing those things. And it was like, oh man, like that's how important it is when not to, you know, not to be Christians and do something that's not Christian, you know what I mean? Like to to sin, especially in the church, especially um things like that. Like it's super, super important.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yeah. And I think it does highlight too that sometimes, again, when you're in community and there is sin, and especially when there's unrepentant sin, that I don't I I'm not advocating for anybody to go flip over tables in their church, although I'm sure many pastors have thought about that. But not to do anything literally like Jesus did because we're not Jesus, okay, you know, and the word of you know, and the the zeal of the Lord consumed him and maybe in a way that it can't for us. But when you when sometimes when you are in community and there is confrontation, this sometimes things are gonna get ugly. They're gonna be unsightly, and they're not gonna be, you know, hey, we're about to come big, happy family, come to church this Sunday, you know. As I'll preach in a few weeks about, you know, confession and repentance, Isaiah called on his people to weep and to wail over their sin. So, you know, sometimes Christian Christianity and the response to sin and even the confrontation of sin are going to be absolutely just you know not nice and pleasant and not, you know, the the American definition of you know of kind at all. So but so I included that one too. And then we have a few more tomorrow, and I'll I'll repeat some of this tomorrow because I think some of this is worth repeating. Um, but uh, but again, Dustin, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yeah, thank you. I'm glad that we were able to smell the connections and hear the connections and and taste the connections, you know, take do all of the five cents for the connections.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

How long have you been waiting to work that into a podcast?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Oh, so long. So, so long.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, so again, this is Dustin's second time. He did the very original, you know, uh um trial, you know, uh podcast with me. And so this is his first time on since then. But he's he's been making that joke with me for a while, and I do appreciate it. So um, but we thank you so much for joining us again, day three of three on Syn Confrontation tomorrow. And I do hope you'll come back and be with us again then as we continue to on Sin Confrontation, read the connections, see the connections, study the connections. Thank you.