Brewing a Dream in Small Town Michigan | Chris Swanson & Amy Shindorf

In this episode, Chris sits down with Amy Shindorf, owner and “chief taster” of Four Leaf Brewing. Amy shares how she transitioned from working as an environmental and natural resource specialist to launching a thriving craft brewery in historic downtown Clare. She discusses the entrepreneurial journey behind building Four Leaf Brewing, her focus on sustainability and locally sourced ingredients, and the next chapter as she works to open a new brewery in Mt. Pleasant with her husband now joining the business full-time.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Imagine going from protecting the environment on a large scale to making beer. Because that's what we're going to talk about today. My name is Chris Swanson. Welcome back to another working class podcast. Amy Schindorf, you make beer. You're a beer meister.

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Well, I'm the chief taster. Chief taster? Yes. All right. Big difference. There is a big difference. Yeah. Thanks for being on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:24

You uh you own a microbrewery. Correct. And uh we're gonna talk about that, but I think the uh the fact that you came from the environmental world and uh you transitioned to something that's completely different. What got you into protecting the environment? And I don't know if anybody agrees with me, but I think I do. Clean air, clean water, clean land, that's not partisan, that's people. Totally. So tell us about why it's so important to protect our environment.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Well, because it's protecting us, because quality of life is what matters. Just like quality of beer and quality of pizza. If you don't have uh an environment, you don't have anything. I'm I'm not really exactly uh focused on environmental issues to protect future generations because I think that automatically happens. But it is about quality of life. I like living in a uh a place where there it's green and it's uh kind of consistent uh weather patterns, and you know, you know how to live well, especially if we don't have uh great farms, we don't have great products, we don't have great beer, we don't have great pizza, we don't have great water. That uh growing up in Michigan, you know, clean water, beautiful nature, that's what gets you into the environment.

SPEAKER_00 1:38

Well, I've learned the hard way through the 2016 water crisis how not having clean, let alone safe water, can shut down a city, homes, schools, churches, businesses. When did you get involved with environmental issues and what was your position?

SPEAKER_01 1:54

So um I was playing business as a kid, and a family friend gave me their junk mail, and one of the pieces of junk mail with Greenpeace, save the dolphin campaign. Oh my god. And I and I I did not have any concept, but it was such a cool concept. Like you can save dolphins. Yeah, I'd like to save a dolphin. Yeah, because they're a secondary byproduct to catching tuna that we want to put in a can, and and there's some things that they can do. You just have to put in technology, and then you save dolphins. And I liked tuna fish to this day. So that actually is where it started. I got it stuck. Talk about marketing. I mean, it worked. I was in, I was hooked because by the way, it's logical if everybody does the same thing, protects the same product, it makes sense. It it's like a fair, you know, fair trade in a sense. So uh I knew I wanted to be in business. My grandmother was an entrepreneur. I worked for government, had my dream job, and found that I pushed a few too many buttons, wanted to do things a little bit differently. I was, you know, young and uh female, and pushing buttons didn't go over well. So that's why I switched into owning my own business.

SPEAKER_00 3:09

What was your government dream job?

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Um, I was actually a resource recovery director. I was responsible for trash. Loved it. I went into then electronic books, styrofoam, household waste, everything. I really enjoyed it. Chemicals out of your home, how to do it right, what chemicals to use, that sort of thing. It was really great. Lots of other people.

SPEAKER_00 3:33

Just at the state level?

SPEAKER_01 3:34

I was a county.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Got it.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

County administrator.

SPEAKER_00 3:36

What county?

SPEAKER_01 3:37

Isabella.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

Yep. Which which was kind of a hub because it was one of the few counties that had it. So we helped all the counties around us.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

You had your own landfill?

SPEAKER_01 3:46

Uh nope. That's why we got it. That's why they had my position was fun state funded because they don't have a landfill, so they need to have some other ways to get rid of waste.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

So you created a recycling center?

SPEAKER_01 3:56

They did, and I got the dream job, yep.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

I uh just toured the recycling center up in Marquette. Sure. And uh it's like a it's a it's a scientific operation, and it's amazing. They can literally recycle everything.

SPEAKER_01 4:10

I know. See, I've not been to Marquette's recycling center, but I was always crushing on Emmett County. So Potoski and those things, which pretty, you know, they have some money, but uh their recycling center was so far forward thinking back in the day, they were the first that went um single stream. And again, that scientific this machine that can separate aluminum because of the eddy currents, and then what the heck is an eddie current? Oh, yeah, I remember what that is, and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that's great stuff.

SPEAKER_00 4:41

You know, there's a myth out there that when you put your recycling container next to your garbage container, that in the end it all goes into the same landfill. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Sure. Yeah, I mean, it isn't true. Um, there is a lot of trash though in somebody's recycling bin, which is about education, but no, that isn't it isn't true. I'm sure somebody will have some video someday of where that does happen, but it isn't uh you're not paying for a second pickup for them to just drive it right to the landfill. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Uh the other myth is that a lot of what we put in our recycling containers, it doesn't get used. And uh I saw it live. I've been a recycler. I I love, you know, seeing the things and uh knowing that this came from, whether it's recycled paper or plastics or rubber. Uh take us through from the side to a final product, what that looks like and how long does it take?

SPEAKER_01 5:32

Oh, well, you know, I've been out of the industry now for uh 16 years. So I would have to be using some pretty generalization because we know technology changes so quickly. Um but one of the things I can tell you is that specifically with plastics, when I was trying to educate people, I wanted them to know that we had industries in Michigan that need this product. They need this stuff to be recycled. Instead, you're paying the same amount to have it driven to a landfill as opposed to getting it into a stream where we can get it to the industries that need it. And plastic recycling, it's not as easy as metal and glass, but it's not very many steps for it to be into a product that people need that raw material, uh the material base for.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Can you give me an example of what industry needs recycled plastics?

SPEAKER_01 6:23

Well, I mean, everything yeah, but um bum.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:26

Yeah, I mean literally.

SPEAKER_00 6:27

Everything that uses plastic.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Literally. Clothing to food to manufacturing of boat parts, automotive, you know, plastics.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

And say Isabella County has a recycling program. Does that just stay in the county or can that go nationwide?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

It had to go, it had to go nationwide.

SPEAKER_00 6:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

So what we're doing in the I actually orchestrated for our metal, interestingly enough, I think it was interesting, to go to East Jordan Ironworks, and they were paying the most amount of money. Well, we had to buy different, you have to buy different machinery to make the briquettes that they can use, and you have to have a transportation because that's quite a ways from Mount Pleasant, is to go to East Jordan Ironworks. But the cool thing about that is East Jordan Ironworks, you can see their manhole covers at every second.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

Everywhere you go.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

And know that your metals, they wanted those metals to go into those uh those covers all over the world.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 7:20

They're doing some in Japan. I mean, I've you know, I've heard of, of course, they have a great facility, did. I think that facility's moved. That was a great facility to uh to tour.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

Where that was where?

SPEAKER_01 7:31

East Jordan Michigan. Okay, right.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

So literally, when you see a manhole cover and it says East Jordan, Michigan, you'll know that recycled product is in that cover, especially if it's one of those newer ones. Excellent. I I I know that you know environmental issues, especially if people uh have been impacted by them. You know, you go over to the west side of the state with PFOS and you see chemical companies that used to produce Scotch Gard and you look at PFOS, they call it the forever chemical because it never breaks down, it just sits in waters and in the soil. Uh there's a way for us to protect our environment and to recycle and do it safely. And uh and still and I think there's a lot of people that that maybe not understand, and still do it in a way that's technologically advancing. It's it's you're still ahead of the game, ahead of the market. I mean, I remember used to get milk in, you know, when I watched movies in glass, we don't do that anymore. You get it in plastic, and used to be used to get milk in cardboard, now you get it in plastic. If there's always gonna be a byproduct of something that contains something, but there's a safe way to dispose it.

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Totally. Well, I'm um close to the same age as the Michigan deposit law. And so when you say you see where the impact has been when people have environmental um disasters, we'll talk about the law that's the same age as me, and you go to places in the world and they don't even know what that is. And and I mean that's a pretty simple thing, the 10 cent deposit. It's it's a worldwide program, right? And there's very few, and uh and it's older than dirt now, just like me. It's so old.

SPEAKER_00 9:03

We should keep that 10 cent deposit program going, shouldn't we?

SPEAKER_01 9:05

We should keep that 10 cent deposit.

SPEAKER_00 9:07

I would love to see that somehow on plastic bottles.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

I would love to see that on somehow on plastic bottles.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

And you're talking to somebody again, we talk about the water crisis. I remember, and and I'm so thankful because my parents live in the city and you experienced it. People were delivering literally millions of bottles of water to Flint because it started January 2016 and it didn't get fixed, and people trust it. Still to this day don't trust, but we had mounds, mountains of huge plastic bottles. And I know they recycled a significant amount of them, but plastics like that that do not break down, the only logical option would be to recycle.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

I mean, the logical option would be to have a comprehensive waste recovery program that covered everything.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:51

But in this day and age, there are many people who are in the retail industry that hate the bottle deposit law, and I appreciate their angst. I do appreciate their mess that they have to deal with. But in this day and age, this has been the successful program that is making an impact and is providing source material for our industries.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Why would they not support it?

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Um I mean, uh given that you have small town real um grocery stores that have to have facilities and employees and all that sort of you know upfront costs.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

You know, I'm the one who would always say that those then those customers, though, are spending that money there, they're buying the product from you. You know, I mean you'd want to make sure to support that. It is unfortunate, but I do believe that at minimum it should be on beverage containers.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

And I do, I think there's a way to expand that. I talked to grocers that uh have a smaller grocery store and and they would love, instead of the actual cash, to issue cards so they can use in the store that the bottles and cans are taken, and there's a way to look at that. But I think it's safe to say that recycling is is a success no matter how you do it, and there could be more that needs to be done. Would you agree?

SPEAKER_01 11:01

I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 11:02

And then you transition out of that into something completely different.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Okay, yes. I've told you that an interesting story. Tell us. Yeah, so beer. Yeah. Um, I'm a craft beer enthusiast. And if you live in a small northern Michigan uh city and your husband is a lifer in the education, he's not gonna leave that small city. He's gonna be a teacher, he's gonna retire from there. Which he did. Which he did, yes, then you 2022? Could yep, sounds right. Yep, yep, yep. Started his um semi-pro pickleball career. No, I'm joking. Got it? Yeah, no, no, that's not um then you if you want to have craft beer as an option, then you have to open a small brewery.

SPEAKER_00 11:43

So what city is Four Leaf Brewery?

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Clare, Michigan.

SPEAKER_00 11:47

Clare, Michigan. So it's it's home of uh the best pizza restaurant in the world. Hands down. And that would be what?

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Bucilly's Pizza.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

And it's also the home of Cops and Donuts.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Cops and Donuts.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

And Doherty Hotel. Doherty Hotel and Spikehorn.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

Spikehorn, yes, yes, a little bit north of us. That's right. Yeah. I I drive by that location quite often where Spikehorn was. Yeah. A little bit of the remnants there. Definitely, I I wasn't born in 59 when he passed, so it was before me. Yeah.

unknown 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

And Jay's sporting goods. That's right. Yeah, it's a big, it's a big one. Yeah. For me, I actually was a uh living in low-income housing. My grandparents um managed uh a big facility right when it opened up. And so my mother, single mom, moved into there, and I walked the block to Busilly's Pizza as a six-year-old and would crave Busilly's pizza. It was just a block away from that.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

Um You could smell it.

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Oh my gosh, it was it's so great. I remember the first uh time that they had a salad bar. What is that? Salad bar, you know, and I wasn't allowed to get it. It was too expensive.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah. Or you could literally go get unlimited pizza.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

Uh you well, they I don't think they had buffet back then. I don't remember, but I do remember begging and begging to go get Busilly's pizza on a real regular basis.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

And now look, you're friends with the uh the owner.

SPEAKER_01 13:07

Yeah, now I serve it.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 13:09

Yeah, we've got a little, we've got a little uh industry going, uh Busilli's Pizza actually makes fresh pizzas, uh par bakes them, par freeze them, deliver them to the brewery, and we finish them off and serve them.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Wow. All right, let's back up. So uh you decided to get into this business. Oh, yes, yes. Your husband's teaching at public schools, yeah. And then you're just like, I want to quit my government job and do something.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Like, well, my government job kind of quit for me. Again, I pushed a few too many buttons. Ah, nine years. Nine years, six months into the yeah, yeah. And um, I knew somebody who had done some commercial brewing, but I wanted to own my own business. What I tell people is that I wanted to bring the dysfunction to the table that other people got paid to deal with. Because, you know, every business has dysfunction, every owner has their own dysfunction. Right. But knowing what it is and it being able to kind of lay it out and say, you know, I think that really uh puts my best foot forward.

SPEAKER_00 14:04

And so what year are we talking that you uh had your nine months and uh how many days?

SPEAKER_01 14:08

That was 2010.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

But um the industry the craft beer started in 2014.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Took a couple years, a couple miss locations found a location that you can't sung to me.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

To to make beer.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

Okay, let's do a pause in the business side of it. From from raw ingredients to in the cup or glass, what what's the process?

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Yeah, okay, well, so uh we have a brewing system at Forleaf, uh, it's actually a three-barrel brewing system, so about a hundred gallons. And um we'll have somewhere between two and three months' worth of malt, the ingredients that go into yeast, um, barley, wheat, oats, corn, those different things, um, hops and uh and water, and they cook it, they capture sugars, and then we ferment the heck out of it, and it tastes fantastic. So we joke that we turn uh clear water into something that's really good.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah, I'd guess so. Yeah. What's the process from step one to drinking? How long does it take in an uh Sure.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

Depends on the beer style.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:20

And um just so you know, I tell people I'm the curator. So I curate someone else's craft. I support people who make great craft products. Got it. I put probably 90% of everything that the business actually has made and that I had to borrow and borrow, I won't say steel, but borrow, into making sure their systems are the best. We're talking like copper, we're talking, you know, we pay extra to have things cleaned, you know, correctly. We do everything that we can. Top of the line, everything's stainless.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

You sacrifice your own net profits for the customer's experience.

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Everything gets put back in right now. Yeah, for 10 years, yep. Everything gets put back in. But my point is that I'm not the craftsman, I'm the person showcasing the craft. And the better their craft, the better it is. Yep. So um I can tell you that from start to finish, depending on a beer style, it can be 10 days or it could be um seven weeks, something has to lager that it's gonna be cold fermented for a longer period of time.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

So the is the proper term for somebody who microbrews the people you hire, are they brewmeisters? Is that what the proper term is?

SPEAKER_01 16:33

Well, I like that term, but um uh my brewmeister of choice, uh, he likes to be called head brewer.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Head brewer.

SPEAKER_01 16:41

Head brewer, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:42

So what does it take to become that person?

SPEAKER_01 16:46

Well, he's a phenomenon. Um, and I'm sure he loves that I'll talk about him. Um because his name is Steve Swainey. And chief brewer, headbrewer, yes. He um is a retired biochemist.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

So, you know, yeah, he has uh in spades a plethora of scientific knowledge that is just it's fun to be around, even though sometimes I hear the little Charlie Brown teacher wah wah wah. You know, I I'm able to at least pick up the things I need to know to ask him, you know, what you need.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

How did you land this first round draft pick?

SPEAKER_01 17:24

Yeah, really, literally. Uh I had a friend who sold him a house and he and his wife were moving to the area, and um she said, Amy, you might want to know this person uh because um they were choosing the house based on his home brew capacity. And I met him and he's been with me ever since.

SPEAKER_00 17:44

He wasn't looking for a job. You just offered him an opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 17:47

He wasn't looking for a job. Nope. He was getting into um he took a fermentation science course um at Central, and he had his own internship, and I was in the need to have some staffing, and he's had a hands at four leaf ever since.

SPEAKER_00 18:00

From 2014? 2016. 2016 he came in.

SPEAKER_01 18:04

Yeah, which is interesting because uh in 2026 he and I are opening a brewery together.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

The head brewer? Yep. Really different than your current location?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

What location?

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Uh it's in Mount Pleasant.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

Wow, because of the demand?

SPEAKER_01 18:18

Because of the demand, because of the demand for quality craft beer made for the local community.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Not made, not made for the state or for you know, larger industry, made for the location where you're gonna serve it.

SPEAKER_00 18:34

Yeah. And people love that. You know, there's wine connoisseurs, there's cigar connoisseurs. There are people who travel just to experience breweries.

SPEAKER_01 18:45

Those are my peeps.

SPEAKER_00 18:47

What's interesting a microbrewery and a brewery?

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Well, some differences in the state of Michigan are the capacity for what you can make and also if you're serving other people's product.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

So we are a microbrewery. We're less than it's like 6,000 barrels or something, which uh this new brewery called Cold Wind Brewing in Mount Pleasant will have um a 10-barrel system, mine's a three-barrel system. I'm pushing 300 barrels a year. So they're gonna go 900. Let's see, yeah, exactly. So we're well within the 6,000 or something that defines the microbrewery in the state of Michigan. And I'm I know those numbers aren't accurate, even though I've seen them a million times. It's something to that effect.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

And uh how did you come up with the name four-leaf brewery?

SPEAKER_01 19:34

I actually had a business partner when I opened in August of 2015, um, and he exited by um June 1st of 2016. So he didn't last for long. And it was it was his name. And um, that's the same thing I would say with this new brewery. Um, it wasn't exactly my name, but you just need a name.

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

People people will come if you brew it. And uh, it doesn't really matter what the name is. But um Claire, Irish community, four leaf uh has and um it's probably defined my last 10 years of business. I am the luckiest person you ever met.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Why do you say that?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

I mean, I a friend of mine who was a realtor suggested that I meet a person who is into homebrewing, who turns out to be, you know, like you said, the A-team. Um I meet a fellow mom at Farwell Schools who owns a pizza restaurant, becomes my mentor. I mean, it's been just a relationship to keep for 10 years. I mean, I can go on and on. I mean, the four-leaf brewing is uh a small business where I can ask no more favors. And people have given them in spades.

SPEAKER_00 20:51

How many lines of beer do you serve?

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Uh, we have 20 taps right now. And they include we have a small winemaker's license.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

So do you make wine?

SPEAKER_01 20:59

We do, yeah. That that eight-team, Steve Swainey, makes some pretty nice wines. Yeah, he can for me so much. He makes um mead, which is a honey wine. Uh, we have it on right now. It is phenomenal. It's a cherry hibiscus mead. And so some people think of mead as, you know, hi-ho, hi-ho, big huge stein. Yeah, we serve it's 14%. We serve it in a six-ounce serving. It's really great. It's really great. And honey, let's have a good environment because we need honey as much as we possibly can, and it's hard to come by.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Yeah, and there's no way to make honey without nature.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

No, nope. It's so great.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

It's a great ingredient.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

So, do you do anything with like brown or white liquor?

SPEAKER_01 21:43

We do not.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Okay. No. So beer and you have wine.

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Cider meads. What else do you have? Beer, wine, cider, meads. And food? Oh, yes, absolutely. Okay. Gotta have food. Um, I would like to think it's um an eclectic flavor menu, sandwich. Dishes, salads, pizzas, of course, nachos. Um, nothing that you're gonna get anywhere else. You know, kind of a lot of things reimagined, higher quality, you know, cuts of meat, but uh made made with love.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

I can see that.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, no burgers. We would not believe how many people walk in and say, Do you have burgers? But uh we are in a vibrant small town. Claire's downtown, it's hopping. It is so nice.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

It's a destination place.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

It is. It's really it has become that, which it's obviously not for me. I'm actually one of those folks who's heading to Traverse City or the UP myself, you know. So those are the destinations I'm going to, but it's a vibrant downtown. And if you want a good hamburger, I can point from the front door of four leaf, and I will at least three locations, if not four, to have hamburgers on the menu. And they're great locations. I I'm not gonna do a hamburger unless I'm gonna, you know, knock your socks off.

SPEAKER_00 22:54

And I'm sure those this is what makes that community so so amazing. I I I uh I would guess that if somebody wants good beer, that the hamburger joint would say go to four leaf, or if somebody goes to four leaf and says, uh, you know, hey, where can I get a good pizza? You can say here or yeah, Utilys. There you go. Yeah. Your favorite place as a kid. Um, is it tough? And is it getting more difficult to run a business like yours in Michigan?

SPEAKER_01 23:21

Well, when you're the luckiest person in business, I don't think it's getting more tough. It's it's different and it's exhausting, but it's not it's not more tough. It's just the same tough for me.

SPEAKER_00 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

It's not, it hasn't, it hasn't, um but again, I'm um I put everything back into the business. I'm not really in it right at this point. I I'm figure the end game is when I eventually sell the business.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

You're putting everything back in.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

I I really am.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

That's a sacrifice.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Yeah, well, um well, it's a small business, and so the margins are small. And if you want to make sure that you have high quality, you better have a a cooler that runs. And you know, when you have to expand because you have higher demand, you you put it back in, you just keep growing it.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Do you get frustrated?

SPEAKER_01 24:08

I get frustrated because I'm the weakest link. That's the most frustrating thing in a small business for me, is that um I need I need to not be doing so much. And it's hard to give that up, but it's also hard because you can hardly compensate somebody to do more of what an owner does.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

I mean, I want my employees to make living wages. I want them to have a path to own their own home. I want them to, you know, feel like they're fulfilled, you know, as much as they can be. And um you you don't get someone who has that feeling of ownership unless that you are the owner.

SPEAKER_00 24:52

That's uh that's a class act right there. You know, I've had guests that had businesses that feel the same way about their employees. They're like family, and uh that's what makes businesses, and you can just tell the vibe where a business that wants to make money is transactional, a business that you just described is transformational.

SPEAKER_01 25:10

They uh my employees make four leaf what it is. Yeah, I mean, all of the positive things that you can read and the uh community, that whole like cheers where everybody knows your name. We're not joking. We have a community that's around this brewery, and it's all because my employees rock.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

You know, they're they're kind. I mean, I like to think that they're well supported.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:29

They're given empowered, you know, they're not micromanaged, you know, all those sorts of things. I do not have that personality micromanaged.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

So how many employees do you have?

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Approximately 20. That's give or take during during the season.

SPEAKER_00 25:44

Wow. When um when you think about uh opening up a second business, how do you split the talent that you bring at that location?

SPEAKER_01 25:52

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Yeah, I'm figuring that out as we speak. Got it. Whose idea was it? You were the head brewers.

SPEAKER_01 25:57

It was mine. But I didn't want him to uh I didn't want him to ever leave.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

So you open a business with him. You made him an offer he can't refuse. I mean, I guess they did.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

I I'd already chosen the location. Uh it was a family um business that closed. So I said, I already have the location. What do you think? So yeah, we're doing it.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

And you have to buy all new equipment, everything all inside?

SPEAKER_01 26:19

So come to four leaf and see a shoestring, come to Coldwin Brewing and see debt.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Ah, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 26:26

Yeah, you know, um I we're working with our local credit union, and they said, um, you know, we don't do startups and we don't do restaurants. By the way, I do not own a restaurant. I own a brewery. It's a much different thing. I have too much respect for a restaurant. I have too much respect for food. So I like to be defined as a brewery because when you can manufacture your own high-quality product, it's different.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Um Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 26:51

Yeah. And the and so the credit union said that they um they don't do food and they don't, I don't I don't know how people do it, but they don't do food and they don't do startups. But they'd seen what uh could do at Fourleaf, and so we've had a full funding through our credit union.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Wow. That's why credit unions, you know, and banks that have good relationships with their community can do things to help the economy.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

So amazing. Yeah. So amazing. Hands down, two um organizations. The other is Northern Initiatives, they're out of Marquette. Got it. They're uh I don't exactly know what they are, but you know, um the SBDC introduced me to them in 2014, and I've had a relationship ever since with them. They've gotten through me through some pretty tight spots, some equipment goes down. You know, you gotta have an oven.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

And they just have to.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

You mentioned uh a small business organization. Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 27:44

SBDC?

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Yeah. I, again, am the luckiest human being. I mean, really, I met I met one person who was phenomenal, and they introduced me to somebody who worked for Northern Initiatives. His name is Chris Wendell. And in 2014, um, his like, I see the vision, I'll hold your hand. You know, people took him a little more seriously. He works for an organization where I was saying, hey, we want to do this. I think I can do it, but I have no demonstrable skills at that point. Really, it it's those relationships have carried me.

SPEAKER_00 28:19

See, what you're helping define is uh in my next life as governor, we want to form a department of innovation where you have people like you just described helping people like you used to be connect idea to implementation to success. Because you know what you want to do, but you can't get to the next step, but somebody can, and you become a link in this chain of success. And I've always said that if you can build the small business, the backbone of the economy, where people succeed, then that money that is succeeding is gonna go back into the industry, gonna go back into the business, it's gonna have deeper roots, it's gonna be a deeper foundation. If you do that a thousand times in a year and a hundred of them stay successful, and ten of them become publicly traded IPOs, you're all gonna stay in Michigan. Sure. You're not opening up another brewery in Wisconsin, you're staying in Michigan because of what you did in Claire. I just think there's an ecosystem we could build to help build up people who, like you, wanted to leave a government job and think, you know what, I've always wanted to do this, but they didn't have a realtor say you should see this person. Right. You need somebody to pick up the phone and say, hey, I need these three things to take my idea to the next level. Can you help me? I think if a state can come in as a partner with that and say, we're not only gonna help you, we're gonna help you succeed. I think we can build up more small businesses, build up the GDP, and make everybody more successful. That'd be great. I'm gonna pitch an idea to you. I do this uh as a business owner, you know, there's highs and lows, high low once, you know, it's a staffle. And I used to work in the industry of food services, and we've had a lot of businesses. Some succeeded, some that didn't. And so I want to come up with my Michigan Tuesdays. So as a small business, if I were to say to you, I'm gonna pitch this idea, that if somebody's driving through Claire, they can just put in the zip code and boom, Clare County pops up, Claire, Michigan. And on Tuesdays, the first Tuesday of the month, they can look and see all the businesses that are gonna give you a free glass of beer, a uh a thing of uh of uh pretzel sticks, uh, you know, a sub, driving businesses to to to be used on a day where now businesses become a statewide network of just hey, on a Tuesday, show your Michigan ID, your driver's license, and you get something. Sure. My Michigan Tuesdays.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Wait, my Michigan Mondays? MMM now. There you go. Triple M.

SPEAKER_00 30:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

I'm in, by the way. Hi, Mug Club Mondays. I'm I'm in my Michigan Mondays. I'll make sense. I'll promote it for you right off the bat. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 30:45

Think about it if you go to Buselli's and you're like, hey, listen, if you come in on Monday on the first, it drives traffic, you show your Michigan ID and your driver's license, whatever you have. And for Michigan residents supporting Michigan businesses, it helps, you know, create this cycle of success.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

That's the kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

That's like you just met him, not even making up that good for you.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Yeah, yeah, that's great. And and and the thing too is if if you don't need we always say this, you know, especially like it like the pizza business, the brewery business, your weekends are busier, but what about your Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays? What how do you drive traffic? And then if you bring somebody in on those days, they're gonna come back on those weekends because like, hey, we're off this weekend or we're going back traveling. It's just a way to keep fuel in the system, fertilizing the system.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Yeah, I love it. So you approve? I approve, yeah. Um, and I mean, just so you know, I'm uh Mondays are mug club Mondays. Tuesdays, I actually have a private chef that comes in and does tacos and takes over the whole uh brewery on Tuesdays where we have sh shorter hours. Wednesdays we do trivia every other week, Thursdays we have some art classes. I mean, so I I'm I mean, I'm in the industry, alcohol industry, so we know having specials and having things that people remember.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Right.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

It's every Tuesday.

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Good for you.

SPEAKER_01 31:55

Really. I mean, that that does that clicks in a in the industry.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Good for you. So proud of you. Um, your husband is a great support system.

SPEAKER_01 32:03

Yeah, my family.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:05

I mean, both of my daughters went, you know, worked for me, you know, um through college and such. My my parents on multiple levels, my aunts, my uncles, you know, extended family.

SPEAKER_00 32:18

Good for you.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:20

As we close out the show, we ask some questions, everybody gets on the show. So people can know who the person is. But first, I just want to say thanks for being a small business. Thanks for being a microbrewery. Thanks for having the tenacity to keep going. I love the grit story. I love the fact that you just for the last 12 years you poured back into the uh the business, high quality, you know, good cleaning. You mentioned all the things that people take for granted.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Nice bathrooms. Nice bathrooms.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

You know, it's funny because when I worked at McDonald's at age 15, 1986, I started in December. And uh, I remember in my trainings they said that we want clean bathrooms and french fries. Nice. And they explained that everybody stops off the exits to go to the bathroom. Yeah, and kids love our french fries. So if there's a car load of kids that have to go to the bathroom and they want to go to McDonald's, they're not walking out because they love the french fries, and with french fries comes all the other order, that's how they sell out.

SPEAKER_01 33:09

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

Yeah, clean bathrooms and fries.

SPEAKER_01 33:11

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

Same thing where you're doing. Yeah. I uh I will tell you that it takes a lot of grit and just keep going. And I hope other people who are either in that you know system where you're only one or two years out, your advice to those people that are in small businesses and they're just trying to make it.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Oh, oh, get a mentor.

unknown 33:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Absolutely. And I mean, the more the more businesses um, even if it's one that's different than yours, you gotta get a mentor, in my opinion. And I think mentoring other is really quite helpful. Who's your mentor? Oh, we uh Sherry Busilli, yeah. But Busilli's Pizza of Claire 53 years, absolutely hands down.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Good people finding good people. Absolutely. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

And and I'm in the brewing industry, by the way. When you were talking earlier about a network in the state, the brewing industry is known for being a very cooperative, very uh community-oriented, um, lift up other breweries is is better for everybody.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

We're creating that system where business supports business. You know, B2B. And I think the government is in a great position to do that because when that happens, everybody wins.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

I agree.

SPEAKER_00 34:14

What's your favorite place to go grab something to eat and what is it that you eat?

SPEAKER_01 34:19

I definitely I love Busilly's pizza. Oh, right on.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Talk about the plugs.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Yeah, yeah. Well, um the thing is not jets? Uh we don't have jets.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Okay, good.

SPEAKER_01 34:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

I probably wouldn't make it in Claire.

SPEAKER_01 34:30

No, no, no, there are some uh mass-produced ones, but it's the best. Um it's it's so well, one, it's you know, you like to get away from your own location, but you can go and uh get a buffet and sit down right away. And yeah, they have great buffets. So um those folks who have great pizza, I can testify. Yeah, they have great pizza. They um the folks who are volunteering their time, who are you know helping me out or whatever, it's always nice to say, hey, let's go, let's go down and get some pizza.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

I love it. What's your favorite concert or band to ever listen to? My favorite.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Oh, well, I have to say my favorite concert was um you two. My husband will probably kill me because I believe I might get it wrong. It might have been Octum Baby in 1992. My fan f um parents had friends who couldn't go, and so I got to go. And it turned out a couple years later we found out my husband was at that concert as well.

SPEAKER_00 35:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 35:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

I'm a YouTube your favorite band?

SPEAKER_01 35:27

Uh I would say I have to say so. Yeah, because when um I can really I'm still kicking myself that I didn't see them at the sphere in Vegas. Oh yeah. They had uh they were the first and the graphics and stuff. I can't believe I didn't go.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I know.

SPEAKER_01 35:43

Anyways, couldn't afford it.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

But I mean what's your uh what's your favorite movie of all time?

SPEAKER_01 35:50

Hmm. My favorite movie of all time. Hmm, it'd have to be probably a musical. Hmm. I'm gonna think of one after we leave. I don't know. Um I've been let's say Annie.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Really?

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:07

Not Mamma Mia.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Um, no, no, it's not. No, I would almost say like the Wizard of Oz. Would before it'd say, you know, it'd have to be some kind of a classic, probably like Annie. Oh, Grease. Grease. Oh my gosh. Um I don't, again, my husband won't kill me, but do you know how many times I saw Dirty Dancing?

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:23

Over I'm with you.

SPEAKER_00 36:24

Ridiculous. Ridiculous. Patrick Swayze, one of the most amazing humans. I love that dude. I wish I could have known.

SPEAKER_01 36:30

Well, I mean, look at my curly hair. I've been having the same parents.

SPEAKER_00 36:33

That's right. Nobody puts baby in the corner. I mean, nobody puts Amy in the corner.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Yeah, we're she and I are really different, but I got the curly hair. That works.

SPEAKER_00 36:40

Oh, that's a great, great line. Uh Amy, you have the whole country uh looking at you for 30 seconds, you're on a stage, and nothing's distracting them, and you get to have their attention. What message would you give the country right now?

SPEAKER_01 36:54

There really is quite a long list. Um, most of them, though, I don't want to touch with a 10-foot pole, so I think I would go with one that is a stance I stand on. Um I really dislike generational gap as an excuse for people not having a good workforce or of, you know, the difference between what's going on now and what used to be going on. I am shocked when I hear hear the hippies talking about the young people of today. And, you know, like that they're different and it's a generational difference. I really think that's a bunch of BS. I am really impressed with the uh younger generation and want to be nothing but like I don't want it to be disparaging against them at all. Because I really feel like that I mean they are the future, yada yada. I mean not to be cliche. That's one of my big things. I point that out to people quite a bit. I'm a lifelong feminist and I'm pointing that out more than anything else nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Good for you. Well, you're definitely a leader in in the uh in not only just your your your workforce in your industry, but you as a person. Thanks. And I I know that being a uh uh a woman-owned business is not easy, and you have pushed through that. So just my my accolades to you is just you're a you're a fireball of energy, just keep going. Thanks. I've had other guests in that chair that are just as excited about pouring back in the community. That's the working class. That's the that that is the heartbeat of this economy. It's a heartbeat of the state. We're just gonna keep supporting people like you. So I uh I'm proud of you. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 38:33

Oh, thanks for saying that. Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 38:35

Keep it going. Thanks. I hope you were encouraged. I hope that you were inspired. No matter where you are right now. In fact, if you need a mentor, you can go contact Buselli's Pizza, you can contact Fort Leaf Brewery, say, Hey, I saw you on the working class podcast. I want to open boom. And I guarantee these ladies will show you exactly what you need to do. It'll be either over a pepperoni pizza or a beer. Thanks for tuning into the working class podcast.