Fighting PFAS and Seeking Justice | Chris Swanson & Sandy Wynn-Stelt

In this episode, Chris sits down with Sandy Wynn-Stelt, who shares her devastating experience living on land contaminated by PFAS “forever chemicals.” After losing her husband to cancer and discovering dangerous levels of these chemicals in her own body, Sandy became a relentless advocate for awareness and accountability. This conversation sheds light on the hidden dangers in our water and soil—and the fight to protect communities from them.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Imagine being married just under 25 years to the love of your life. You move into your house, it's 1991, and everything changes because of a chemical. But not just any other chemical. The forever chemical. You may have heard it. It's called PFOS. PFAS is the acronym. And with me today is someone who knows it all too well. I met Sandy Winstelt just over about nine months ago. I was talking to a great friend of ours, uh Lisa Wozniak from the League of Conservation Voters, and that is an environmental group in the state of Michigan that really advocate for clean air, clean water, and clean land. Who doesn't want that, right? And uh she goes, You have to talk to Sandy. You are the champion, unfortunately, through trials. Welcome to the Working Class Podcast. My name is Chris Swanson, and this is my friend Sandy. I came to your home. I had zucchini bread.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

Yes, we did.

SPEAKER_02 1:01

We talked about the deer who come to your home to die.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

Tell us about your husband.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Um I met Joel actually in '87, because we're very old. Uh Joel was a social worker, and I was uh I worked in a day program for people with disabilities. And um we sort of started dating. Uh we started dating actually a year later. He left the job and then came back. And I was like, why did you decide to ask me out? And he said, uh, well, I had made a list of women I thought would go out with me. I made a list of 10 women. You were number five on the list. What? And the other four turned me down.

SPEAKER_02 1:43

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

And he tells me this over dinner, our first date, and I thought, I'm gonna stab you in the eye and just leave. Who does this? Then I thought, you know, I love people that are just honest and to the point. And I thought, I'm never gonna have to doubt him if I can't. 100%. These pants make my butt look big. He's gonna tell me straight up truthful. And so from that point on, uh, we dated. We got married in '91. We bought our house.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Where was that restaurant?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Um, it was Mr. Fables, because we were both, you know, working like human services. You don't make money when you do that. So it was at Mr. Fables, and I was uh, yeah, getting ready to stab my fork in his eye. Uh but yeah, we got married after that and then bought our house. And we thought it was heaven. It was like surrounded by Christmas trees. In fact, the 50 acres across the street were a Christmas tree farm, so it's idyllic. We had no people around us, which was idyllic because we hated people, even you know, so uh, but then fast forward 25 years, um, Joel starts having some stomach problems and goes in for what we thought was going to be a hernia repair. And it turned out that uh they found he had stage four liver cancer, and he died three weeks later. So we had no time. Oh my god. It was it was a gut punch. It was more than a gut punch. And it wasn't until the next year that I learned that the Christmas tree farm that we loved 20 years before had been, probably 30 years before, had been it's land that's owned by Wolverine Worldwide, the shoe company. And they were the first to make waterproof shoes, and they dumped all their tannery waste in that field, in that 40 acres 20 feet deep in trenches. And that tannery waste was full of Scotch guard, which is the key component, that's what PFOS has. That's right. And that got in all our drinking water, it was in our wells.

SPEAKER_02 3:49

You drank it for years.

SPEAKER_00 3:50

25 years we drank it at some of the highest levels ever seen in drinking water. The the EPA now says you can't drink any of it. Zero is the correct amount to drink. And ours tested at 38,000, 48,000, 50,000 parts per trillion. Oh my gosh. For years we drank that. So that's how I ended up here.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

I I want people to just comprehend what just happened. Imagine today everything is great, and three weeks later you're burying your spouse because of a chemical waste of which you didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 4:26

And there's no do-overs. And I want people to realize that when we talk about environmental issues, these are not partisan issues. No, these are people. Environmental poisons, and I know this from Flint with the 2016 water crisis. I drank poison-led water for years at the sheriff's. Yeah, the sheriff's office.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

I mean, it's in Flint. And my parents were at this point and so thankful. My dad's 87, my diet, my mom's 85, they lived in the city. All the people from the city, we when you drink and you don't realize it, it it's it's in your body. Right. And uh, and then when you have something as so catastrophic as what happened to you, I want to paint this picture. So we're doing step by a step, Joel. And you and he were married, and uh, this is now you you got married, and in 91 you bought your house. What year did you realize that he actually died of cancer that was probably caused by the PFOS contamination? You said it was a year after his passing, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Yeah, he passed in 2016. In 2017 was when Eagle came to my door and said, Could we test your water? We think there's some contamination.

SPEAKER_02 5:31

And I want to put a pause in that. So you didn't even know it. No. Did anybody talk to you about the causation of the cancer, or you just thought it was part of life?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I thought it was part of life.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

And how old was Joel?

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Uh he was fifty eight.

SPEAKER_02 5:44

Fifty-eight. When they knocked on your door, was it surreal? What what what did you say?

SPEAKER_00 5:55

And so when they I was actually out for a walk, and um because I was so depressed, obviously. And people don't know that walking, being in the sunshine every day will really help with mood and depression. Because now I'm a psychologist, so I know these things. Um, I saw the state car go by and I recognized the state car because Joel had worked for the state for years, and thought, oh, what are they up to? And then they walked up to me and said, Could we test your water? And uh started saying, We have reason to believe there could be some PFAS contamination.

SPEAKER_02 6:27

What you didn't even know what PFOS meant.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

I had no idea what they were talking about. And I just remember walking them back saying yes. They said it'll take us a couple days, but we wanted your permission. I said, I guess you guys have learned your lesson from Flint, haven't you? You're not gonna let this shit sit in the water anymore and let people be poisoned. I'm glad you're kind of reacting to things now. And oh yes, that was it.

unknown 6:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

And it turned out that had nothing to do with it, but that's what I kind of told myself.

SPEAKER_02 6:54

The irony that you and I are talking, I've been to your home in Roxford, and the fact that you just talked about Flint and the connection of poison water, that's why when I bring up these topics, I want people to set all things aside, just realize what if that was you? Yes, that you got that knock on the door, and that the beautiful Christmas tree farm or the cattle farm or the building that you bought is contaminated. So for the purpose of our audience, PFOS, explain it.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

PFOS is a class of chemicals. Right now, there's over, we think, 14,000 different chemicals in this class. Um, their brilliance in this chemical is that they don't break down and they are waterproof, they're flame resistant, they're this like super chemical that you can coat things with and they won't catch on fire, you can't drown it, you can't get rid of it, you can't burn it, and it never goes away. It doesn't break down.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

Thus the forever chemical.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

That's the forever chemical, and it sounds great until you start thinking, wait a minute. So if we're sending spaceships up to the moon, I want things that aren't gonna burn up.

SPEAKER_02 7:59

Right.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

I want things that are gonna stay waterproof when it lands in the in the ocean. Right. But I don't know that JD Vance needs mascara that's not gonna run and has to be full of PFOS. So it's this whole class of chemicals that does this that started out for really good reasons. We started it with the atomic bomb, frankly, but then it's just expanded and manufacturing is found we can use it in everything, and now it's in everything. Well, everything eventually ends up in landfills, ends up getting burnt, ends up somewhere, but these chemicals don't break down, and as a result, they end up in our water.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

And I was reading some of the uh the uh court rulings, and and I actually watched one of your interviews to prep for this podcast, and I love what you say because you know there has to be progress, and it's the issue is just clean up your mess. Yes. It's not about you and anybody wanting to keep a clean environment. We know there's chemicals involved in everything. Don't poison people and clean up your mess.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Is that fair to say? That's fair to say. Be smart about it. Like if you know you've got this brilliant chemical, then be judicious on how you use it. Don't just put it in everything. It does not need to be in everything. And be very mindful of how you're gonna use it, but also be mindful of progressing that chemical so that it can be cleaned up or it can be destroyed.

SPEAKER_02 9:22

Um safely stored.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

Or safely stored. But don't produce it, put it everywhere, and then act like, no, it's fine, really. We've got proprietary knowledge that we're not gonna share with you.

SPEAKER_02 9:32

Or so PFOS is in shoes, it's in makeup, it's in foam that they coat, you know, at airports, should there be a fire? I mean, we understand it's anything waterproof, anything that's you know, uh flame retardant, any of that. We get that.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 9:50

But I think the important thing is that wasn't told to you. They they hit it. And we see this with a lot of industries, including data centers. When you do not listen to the people or you lie to the locals, or you covered up by redacting information and not being up front, you have destroyed public trust, and that's the problem with these kinds of issues. They sold you a lot of land and your neighbors up and down Area 19 that you did not know this was there. They buried it, they put trees on top of it. I want you to describe how much work did Wolverine go through for decades to bury this forever chemical. Listen to this.

SPEAKER_00 10:30

Well, what they did was they they dug trenches. So it, you know, as most places, gradually it developed over time. So when they started doing this, there was no development up there.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

So they're talking 1940s, 50s.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Well, probably 60s, 70s into 70s primarily. So there's no development up there. So they went, they bought all this land, they dug giant trenches that were like 20 feet deep. They would just bring truckload after truckload after truckload and dump it in there.

SPEAKER_02 10:58

55-gallon drums.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Some were in drums, some were just giant haulers that just dumped this waste. And when it would snow when the roads were bad, because it was dirt roads, they would just dump it wherever they found, not even in the trenches. So some of it was on my actual property. Um, in fact, that's how the story of the deer came up because we were trying to grow a garden one year and we were rotatilling, we kept finding all these hides, and we thought, this is weird. Why do the deer come to my house to die? And it turned out it was cow hides from the tannery that had just been thrown on the land and were there. But they would dig these trenches, they would dump it in there. Eventually, tannery waste is pretty smelly, and so it was the odor would get really bad in the summer. So they started punching through the clay underline so it would seep into the aquifer that would go into the Grand River that then feeds into Lake Michigan. And I'm guessing back in the 60s and 70s, that was how we dealt with the environment. But the company is still there, the company knows it's still there, and did not say, hmm, that's not good. We better fix this. So it wasn't until this blew up with my water and literally a couple thousand people in my community that have been impacted by this that Wolverine was forced to step up.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

When I was on your deck, we were talking about it. You have found 55-gallon drums in your property. About how many have you found?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Um, next to my property, there were like 40 that they had to dig up and take care of. There were some more in the back. There's a big area, um, and a lot of my land I've just let stay natural. Um, but there was a big chunk that's got hexavalient chromium and mercury and lead and arsenic and all sorts of chemicals that were just dumped there.

SPEAKER_02 12:47

I think it's important to note, too, is it goes into the watershed, it goes into the table, into the river, and out to Lake Michigan. So you may not even be from Rockford. You could be listening to this show from Butte, Montana, but come to Lake Michigan for our vacation. And little do you know that you're being exposed with your little kids building sandcastles to PFOS water, potentially, or anywhere else with a long-term cause.

SPEAKER_00 13:11

Yeah, keep in mind we've got 300 sites plus in the state of Michigan that are PFAS-contaminated sites. All of those sites eventually feed into these Great Lakes, whichever Great Lake. Pick a Great Lake and it's going in there. 300 and some sites. And that's only because we have tested in Michigan. You know it's just as bad in Wisconsin, it's just as bad in New York. I don't want to think about Gary, Indiana, what's going on there?

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Yeah. I mean. So you're still at the original house?

SPEAKER_00 13:40

Heck yes.

SPEAKER_02 13:40

And uh, I saw your elevated garden this time. Yes. Yes, you don't have anything in the ground. No. How do you live your life now, knowing that you have a contaminated world around you and all your neighbors? Yes. How how does one live? I mean, I gotta believe if you ever were to sell, you have to disclose that. Oh, yeah. That affects your property value.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

I mean, the you you're you're in a prison of environment.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

Well, I'm lucky in a weird way that we had really good lawyers because one of the things that happens to people with this is they can't find legal representation. You know, they have a company that's wrong them that's either left town and they're stock holding the bag, or is still there, but has hired every big law firm around to represent them. And you have nobody but your brother Tom, who happens to be a divorce lawyer who may help you out, which isn't going to work in this case. So we had a really good law firm that really held their feet to the fire.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Um, we also You did a class action?

SPEAKER_00 14:35

No, we did individual suits.

SPEAKER_02 14:37

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:37

Um we also, though, the attorney general Dana Nessel. Dana Nessel, fierce fighter for environmental groups. Yes. Um, they settled into a $69.5 million settlement with the township to put in municipal water for all of us. So we do have clean water now. Now keep in mind the plain field water, I'm in plain field township, that water's contaminated too. So they had to put in a huge granular activated carbon filter on our water system, which costs millions to upkeep and change out. It's a mess. And it's going to continue to be a mess until we stop producing this and letting it loose in our environment.

SPEAKER_02 15:19

So across the street from your house, beautiful property. I might, I mean, it's like you you do, it's got that that runoff into the back of the woods, the trees everywhere. Across the street, though, you have not a Christmas tree farm.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

No longer a Christmas tree farm.

SPEAKER_02 15:35

What does it look like?

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Well, I'm hoping it's gonna start getting better. It had to be um raised, it had to be completely decimated, it's been capped. They've put, they've telling me flowering plants onto it. Uh it's gonna end up being a meadowland that's that's contaminated property. I'm it will either it's being reviewed to become either a super fund site um or at least at minimum a brownfield. But I'm hoping it gets super fund designation.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Explain what that is.

SPEAKER_00 16:05

So superfund designation is where the EPA comes in and has some ability to do oversight as well as the state. And most people don't want that, but I would challenge people to think over, think long term and big because we know administrations throughout the state change.

SPEAKER_02 16:21

They change.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

Yes, and it um in Rockford is the second area that Wolverine contaminated along this beautiful parkway and river down there, that's where their tannery was. That's also being considered for a super fund site. And it was considered for superfund um many years ago under I think Angler's administration. And and Superfund was they they were told, never mind, we don't need super fund designation. Got it. So I think you want that because it gives you two sets of eyes and ears managing the environment. Um, and you're less likely to become victims of whatever administration gets in power.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Right? It's a long-term oversight instead of term-to-term.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Instead of term to term.

SPEAKER_02 17:06

Do you still have the chain link fence with a sign out front?

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yes, it still's got this nice sign that says hazardous waste warning. And I keep thinking, why do you do that? Like marketing. Do you not have a marketing department? Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 17:19

Well, we're gonna hopefully fix that to make it more user-friendly.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

And and so um, luckily, our state eagle has has kind of let me know that you know, we could probably put some plants there because that is road commission area, not Wolverine's my direction of defense. So we are looking at working with the Road Commission to try and get something to make it look less Jackson prison meets. Yeah, meets the fruit belt.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Yes, yes, yeah, true that. Right. You have become a champion for environmental causes. Have you met somebody else that has lost a loved one like you?

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Oh, uh nationally, I hate to say it, but there's people all over, you know, and and even in my neighborhood, there's people that have suffered greatly. I, you know, how people that have had, I've got I know people that have miscarried, had so many miscarriages that we know are connected to this now. I know people that have lost that have had seven-year-olds that have developed bone cancer. Um, I know people that have had lost husbands as well to liver disease and things like that, that I suspect are part of this. Um people around the country that have lost loved ones, children, siblings, husbands, all of this.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

You yourself got diagnosed with cancer?

SPEAKER_00 18:34

I myself was diagnosed with cancer in um 2021, yes, with thyroid cancer. And it was only because I knew about this contamination and I had my blood tested, and even my doctor went, oh crap, that's not good. And so he could watch things that normally would not be noticed. And because of that, we found the cancer really, really early.

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Had you not been listed as high risk because of your environment, you'd have could perhaps been that stage two or three or four cancer.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

I have no doubt. Thyroid cancer is really hard to notice if you're not looking for the right things. And um, it luckily it's a very slow-growing cancer, and it so it's typically treated, but why take the chances, you know?

SPEAKER_02 19:16

Now, this battle's not over.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Oh, heck no.

SPEAKER_02 19:19

And there's a most recent article where their Wolverine feels like they've done enough. Um, Wolverine's a global company and uh they're still making billions of dollars.

SPEAKER_00 19:31

I think they posted 1.67 billion in revenue just last year.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah, but it's not about the money for you, it's about doing the right thing and just finishing the job.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

We we talk about cap. I mean, there's a liner that has been put down. There's there's uh uh uh you know, obviously a part of the field that's been fenced off. What are they not doing that that company making over a billion dollars just needs to do the right thing?

SPEAKER_00 19:57

Well, we keep expanding and finding more areas that are contaminated. Um, so one thing is they just I would feel so much better if if companies, and not just Wolverine, but all these companies do this. So I gotta give Wolverine a little cover here because Chemores in North Carolina is doing it, and in New Hampshire is doing it, you know, 3M up in Minnesota does this. All these chemicals companies hide because they want to make sure their shareholders get good profits. And meanwhile, they leave us holding the bag and they do the absolute minimum. So I want Wolverine to step up and test farther out and farther out. I want them to extend municipal water farther out and farther out. I'd love them to do medical monitoring or pay for people's blood testing. Blood testing is like 700 bucks a pop. You only need to do it once. When you're posting 1.67 billion in a year, I think you could probably shake the cushions and find some quarters that have fallen out at a board meeting.

SPEAKER_02 20:58

Especially those that are affected that have not been tested. Yes. So maybe they can treat it before it's stage three, four.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's how you become a good community partner. Not by just saying you're a good community partner and sponsoring a couple Broadway shows, you know.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

When did somebody from Wolverine come and apologize to you?

SPEAKER_00 21:16

Apologize, that would be not. Um, I did early on have someone from Wolverine come to my house. It's kind of a funny story, maybe I shouldn't say it, but oh, what the hell? Um love Sandy. You gotta love Sandy. So here's what happened. Early, early, early on. Um there I notice on a Saturday they're over there like messing with the barrels. And so I decide to go over and just see what they're doing. So I go romping over there and uh meet. I introduce myself, and there's like three Big Migs there, you know, guys here in suits and stuff. And I say, Oh, I'm Sandy, and one is their C well, who is now their CEO, Chris. And the other is their in-council attorney. So I say, Oh, I'm Sandy. And so I shake their hands. And then they're like, We can't talk to you because you've got a lawyer. And I guess those are the rules. And I said, Oh my God, not only did I talk to you, but I shook your hand. Like, there's got to be bad rules if I've touched you now. So bad rules. So then they said there was another environmental consultant they had who would talk to me. But this Chris said, I'd like to come over and talk to you when we're done here. Well, I'm thinking, I probably should call my lawyer and not let these guys just show up at my house. So they're going to follow me to my house. Well, I can't have them follow me to my house. So I say, Are you looking for barrels? Because I know where there's barrels. And I take off down the gully over towards the fruit. And I'm just on a dead run down this thinking, and they're like, Sandy, wait, stop, stop. So they start chasing me and I start running through brush and everything. It was like a lull, and it was a foot chase. Yes. And so finally I get a way out there and I go, I think they're over there just down that side. And they go, Okay, we'll get to your house later. We're gonna check this out so we'll come over.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

That's a diversion.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

It's not my first road. I guess it's the first time I've run for I've run from the cops a time or two. Come on. I grew up in the 70s. It's not that hard. That's great. So yeah, I came back and talked to my attorney.

SPEAKER_02 23:18

Oh my gosh, you brought it from the cops today. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

So so uh they came over and he was very nice, but it was very obvious that he had legal counsel. Yeah. And I respect that. He's got to do what his legal counsel does.

SPEAKER_02 23:30

But they've never accepted the responsibility. Is that would that be fair to say?

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Um, you know, we had a settlement that is confidential, so I can't get into that. But as far as Wolverine coming out and saying uh they've posted on their website their response to this contamination.

SPEAKER_02 23:47

What about your neighbors? How do they feel? I mean, you're talking thousands up and down your street.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

My street was the first one that was found out. We got very close, actually. None of us had met each other because we all had like these pretty good sized lots because you didn't want to know your neighbors. So that worked. Right. How many acres did you live on? I have now I have like five because we had bought a couple more, but everybody has two or three acre lots, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:08

So we kind of And I find it interesting when I was talking to you that not are your neighbors close, but they uh they haven't left.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

None of us have. No, none of us have. Yeah, yeah. And one neighbor joking.

SPEAKER_02 24:21

You're living on area 19, you're like, we love it.

SPEAKER_00 24:23

Right, exactly. What the heck? No, one neighbor came and said, you know, we were looking to move. We needed four bedrooms, we needed like a pool, we needed like three acres because he's got a lot of kids, and we needed to be within like a walking distance of a super fun site. And he goes, Sandy, we just couldn't find one that met that criteria. So I said, Well, then stay. We love having you.

SPEAKER_02 24:42

So that's incredible.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

So, no, we haven't, we've gotten pretty close. Uh, watched all the kids grow up. I think what's really helped is the municipal water coming in. It took a lot of the pressure off. You don't have to filter your water, you weren't panicked about letting little kids bathe, you weren't panicked about growing things, yeah. Things like that. So I think that was really the key. But putting municipal water into communities, holy bananas, that ain't cheap.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

What would you like to say to Dana Nessel, who gets um she gets a bad rap for sticking out for people? I know her personally, you know her personally. She's the attorney general of the state of Michigan. Uh she uh was the first political uh person that I met when I got appointed sheriff in 2020. And since then, we've done our own environmental investigations with Lockhart, the chemical company that poisoned the Flint River with the chemical in WD-40, the expungement fairs, uh giving people their freedom back that have had records for 20, 30, 40 years that you hosted it right at their sheriff's office. Uh she is a fierce fighter, and I know that she's made an impact on you.

SPEAKER_00 25:49

Yes, she has. And I mean, I um so respect the work she does. She scares me to death even now. I tremble in her presence.

SPEAKER_02 25:59

She can be mean.

SPEAKER_00 26:00

It's not even that she's mean. She's just forced. Yeah, I know. She is like forced, and you know you're not playing. Right on. You're not playing. I wouldn't admit it.

SPEAKER_02 26:09

I felt like I was talking to my principal from my listener. I'm a sheriff, but you're freaking me out right now.

SPEAKER_00 26:13

I was debating do I need to do another run? I wasn't sure. If I need another run, I'm gonna do a foot chase. I need to do a foot chase here, you know. I'm small. Um, but I didn't know. That's right. She takes a lot of grief, and I gotta believe on some level, the bad rap that she gets bothers her because she really is. While she's tough, she genuinely cares what happens in her state. That's right. So I gotta believe deep down that touches her, but you don't see it. I mean, she stays laser focused, and that's who we need in those kind of jobs.

SPEAKER_02 26:45

She came out and saw you, didn't she?

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah, she came um to, in fact, she came to one of our big town halls right after we had the settlement because some people were really upset with it and felt like we didn't get enough and all this. And she came and had the courage to come and explain it.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

And uh before it started, she said she sent one of her staff out to get me. And I'm like, Oh, I'm getting arrested. What I do, but she just wanted to see how I was doing and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

So that's that's awesome. Yeah. What about Lisa Wozniak?

SPEAKER_00 27:14

Oh God, she is my savior, she really is. When this all started, um, there was a group of neighbors and I that were getting together just trying to figure out what to do, and we had no idea. And I, for the life of me, cannot figure out how Lisa and I connected, but somehow she called me and said, Let's go get a beer. And we went out and had a drink, and she just said, I think we can probably help you with this. And they got on board.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

So I would say good people find good people.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

They do.

SPEAKER_02 27:41

And uh when you say LCV, again, League of Conservation Voters, what did they do to help you?

SPEAKER_00 27:47

Well, the first thing they did was just educate us on how the system works because I think what most people in government don't understand is most of us are just like trying to pay the bills, maybe get to little league practice, you know, get our law in mode. That's what our focus is. And how the rest of this big magic over here works, we don't really care. And all of a sudden I'm having to figure out like who is my legislator and what exactly is that job? And who am I supposed to call? I remember calling Senator Peters' office and saying, I want to meet with Senator Peters. And they said, Well, you can meet with a staff. And I'm like, I didn't have to, I didn't elect a staff. Why do I want to meet with a staff? I want to meet with a senator. And God bless he sat down and met with me to explain to me how this all works. Wow. And LCV, Michigan League of Conservation Voters, really took that on for us and helped myself and many of my neighbors do that. And from that, it kind of branched out that the more we talked, we realized that communities can be a really asset to these environmental groups as well, because when you have the personal story and the knowledge of how the system works, you can really make change. Um one or the other without one without the other is not as effective. But when you put the two together, that's the secret sauce.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Well, I've said before as I travel the state, you know, there's there's no um discrimination where environmental risks happen. Just like Mother Nature doesn't pick and choose where storms and and uh and destruction happens, but you better have people that are gonna stick up for people that don't have a voice. And that's what happened. I uh I just want to say thank you for staying such uh being such a light because you could be angry, you could be depressed, but you've turned it into a force for good. You've encouraged other people, you've championed this for other people, you've kept it on the front lines, you've obviously edified people who are there with you haven't forgotten. Uh I just thought, you know, having you on the show, people can be encouraged by even through this trial that you've been through. You have the attitude you have right now, you keep pushing forward, you're protecting yourself, but you also want the message to be to be out there to say it doesn't matter where you're listening, where you're watching from, it can impact all of us.

SPEAKER_00 30:01

It is, it is impacting all of us. You just don't know it yet. Yeah, you know, so and you can, everybody can make a difference. I'm surprised how much you really can make a change if people band together, are smart and logical about it, yeah, and listen to understand, don't listen to argue.

SPEAKER_02 30:19

So as we close out, we get into a couple of the fun private questions. Would you recommend people getting their blood tested?

SPEAKER_00 30:25

Absolutely. Here's what I will tell you you only need to do it one time because uh we know what the half-life is. Once you know what you have, we'll know how it'll progress. If you haven't been at all exposed, evidently that means you've lived in a bubble somewhere, but God bless you for doing it. But if you have been in an area that you know is exposed, exposed in the military near an airport, near an industrial site, uh, then yes, by all means.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

And you literally tell your doctor I'd like to be tested for PFOS contamination.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 30:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:56

And what if you live somewhere and you wonder, I is my site contaminated? What should someone do?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Well, if people are wondering, you can go to the M Part, it's M-P-A-R-T. There's a website that will show you all 333 sites and stuff. What I worry most about now is Michigan is way far ahead of most people testing. So in Michigan, we know municipal systems are pretty safe. People on private wells, however, are really at great risk and they're very reluctant to test because they're afraid it'll affect their property values. But they need to test because your kids and your grandkids and pregnant people and people with illnesses are are very vulnerable. You can get a test that you can do that's kind of a basic screening for 79 bucks, and that will get it started.

SPEAKER_02 31:42

And it's just a soil test.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

It no, it's a water test. Water test? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:46

Excellent. Right. Sandy, uh, we always end on some fun things. If you could go see anybody in concert, no matter where you are, live or dead, who would be your favorite?

SPEAKER_00 31:54

Gosh, I've been to so many concerts.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

Oh, yeah? Oh, you a metalhead? Are you a parrot head?

SPEAKER_00 32:01

I mean, I've seen everybody from uh Insane Clown Posse to the Rolls. I've seen the four I've seen the four Rolling Stones farewell tours. I refuse to go to this one because I've seen the other four farewell tours.

SPEAKER_02 32:16

Oh my gosh. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Back up, back up. Who did you go to see the ICP?

SPEAKER_00 32:24

Joel was a huge punk rock music fan, and I got dragged to every one of them.

SPEAKER_02 32:31

Was it wild?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

What do you think? Was it wild? Yes. I remember being grumpy through the whole thing, thinking this is insane. I'm gonna get killed. But it was kind of fun to do it too. You know, it's kind of fun. So to see anybody, you know who I wish I would have seen in concert is Aretha Franklin.

SPEAKER_01 32:50

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 32:50

I mean, that woman, nobody will ever match her voice. Aretha Franklin. Ever, ever, ever. By far and above.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

I've seen a reel of her, one of her last performances in that big brown coat, and Barack Obama was the president, and she was singing, and people were tearing up, and she was just doing her thing.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

Oh, oh, it was.

SPEAKER_02 33:09

She had to be in her 80s.

SPEAKER_00 33:10

She she was amazing.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Got it.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

You remember what movie she was in?

SPEAKER_00 33:15

No, was she in a movie?

SPEAKER_02 33:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

What movie?

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Come on.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Aretha Franklin?

SPEAKER_02 33:22

Yes. She played a server at a diner.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Yes. What was it? Blues Brothers. That's right. That's right. That's right. Yes. That's right. Yes. All right, good. All right, Aretha. What's your favorite? What? What what what group would you go see?

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Uh man, mine's controversial.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

Why?

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Because he's got a weird past.

SPEAKER_00 33:42

Well, that narrows it right down to about.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah, Michael Jackson.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Oh, I gotta say though, as a boomer, he was a musical genius. Yeah. He was a creepazoid in other ways, but he was a musical genius, and he can't take that away from me.

SPEAKER_02 33:55

Yeah, I know. Yeah. So uh I will tell you that uh one of the best concerts I've seen, um, man, it was great. And I went with my son, who's one of the producers here, and uh, it was Aerosmith.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Really?

SPEAKER_02 34:08

Oh, yeah. And when they played Sweet Emotion, I was just like, this is unbelievable. Had that rattled going on, it was phenomenal. And Steven Tyler at that point, he was probably in his late 60s, early 70s. He was ripped, he sounded great, it was awesome. Yeah. Aerosmith. Oh, yeah. Then I saw Metallica at uh Camerica Park. Not Metallica, Motley Crue.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

Okay, yeah, Motley Crue, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:30

Def Leopard, all that. Yeah. I'm an 80s rocket. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:33

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

I'd love to see Metallica. I need to do that.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Um what's your favorite food of all time?

unknown 34:39

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_00 34:40

Is there a food I don't like? Uh you know, I I don't.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Do you say sushi? Because everybody says sushi.

SPEAKER_00 34:45

Oh God, no. No, no. I'm going for which kind of donut in a amplitude. Yeah, give me the Midwest. Right. Yeah, give me the custard-filled long John with the good chocolate.

SPEAKER_02 34:57

Custard or cream?

SPEAKER_00 34:58

Custard. What? We differ on that. No. Yeah. No. Sorry. Cream is just like fluffy sugar.

SPEAKER_02 35:04

And custard's like milk. Yeah. I just, no, it's not even that. It's a word that I can't say on here, but it just starts with the S and ends with the Otz.

SPEAKER_00 35:12

Okay, yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 35:14

Radio edit. I just can't. It it just it doesn't feel good. Yeah, like, oh yeah. So I can't do that. All right. So it's a custard-filled chocolate.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do love Mexican food. Okay, there you go.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

That's fair. That's probably who's your favorite movie of all time? Actor movie.

unknown 35:35

Oh God.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

See, this is where I I I love, I'm so adult-like. Give me a good Jurassic Park film anytime.

SPEAKER_02 35:43

Oh my gosh, you're a kid.

SPEAKER_00 35:45

I am. I love Jurassic Park movies.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

How many more can they make?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Oh, hopefully 30 and 70. They were dinosaurs, you know?

SPEAKER_02 35:52

Like, I can't stand dinosaur movies or out of space movies unless it's about 13. But like Interstellar, I'm done. I can't make it through the credits.

SPEAKER_00 36:00

No, I can't do that. And no, I can't do those either. Okay, good. Yeah. Yeah. But Jurassic Park, the early Jurassic Park, especially. And I use that in examples when I'm talking about PFAS. Like, you know, Jurassic Park, it sounded like a great idea when we invented, like, let's go see dinosaurs. And then everybody went, wait, how do we do that? We're bigger than dinosaurs, right? We're screwed. That's PFAS. I got it. I got it. Good. Hey, what a way to end.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

That's perfect. Yeah. Whenever you watch Jurassic Park, you see somebody decking out their Jeep, you just know. Remember standing. That's right. It's saying, thank you, Wolverine. What are all right? Uh, you are on stage, the whole country's watching you, nobody's saying anything. You got 30 seconds to send a message, and people are just focused on you. What would you tell the country, no matter what it is, with what you've been through?

SPEAKER_00 36:44

With what I'd been through. You know, it's not about what I've been through. Here's what I want the country to know we can do so much better than what we are right now. And we all know it. We all know it. Even our differences, you know, when I think of this, I'm in a very MAGA area. My neighborhood has got a lot of Trump flags flying. That is not exactly me. But I know as soon as a tree comes down in my driveway, my neighbors are gonna come by with their chainsaws and get it cleaned up before I can get my shoes on. Because that's who we genuinely are as people. When we can find that part of us, we're back in business. You know, we've just lost our way here a little bit. We're fighting way too much. We don't need to do that. We can do better than this, and we will.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

I know a guy.

SPEAKER_00 37:29

I know a guy. I think I know somebody who can help us with that.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

I want nothing more than the same thing that you just described, and I hope you do too. My name is Chris Swanson. This is my friend Sandy. Thank you for joining in on another episode of the Working Class Podcast.