All My Friends Have ADHD
I talk to interesting people with interesting brains about ADHD, their careers, and how they've managed to make it all work. New episodes every other Monday.
All My Friends Have ADHD
#5 - Mary HK Choi (New York Times bestselling author with AuDHD)
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Mary HK Choi is the New York Times Bestselling author of Emergency Contact, Permanent Record, Yolk and Pool House (now available for pre-order). She was diagnosed with both ADHD and autism in her 40s.
Permanent Record is being adapted for a feature film, while Yolk will become a TV series. Mary is an executive producer and writer for both, because her talents are endless.
Mary is a third-culture kid: she was born in South Korea, grew up in Hong Kong and Houston, and now lives in New York City.
In this episode, we talked about making deadlines, learning to say no, and ADHD burn-out and/or autism melt-downs.
Recorded in New York City on April 30, 2025.
Follow us on Instagram: @allmyfriendshaveadhd
Follow Laurel on Instagram: @laurelchor
New episodes every other Monday.
All my friends have ADHD. All my friends have ADHD. All my friends have ADHD. All my friends have ADHD.
SPEAKER_03That's sexy. I love it. It's just so goofy. Which I kind of feel like ADHD's kind of a goofy thing.
SPEAKER_01It can be, yeah. And then although if you were like right before burnout, it's like really a whole other thing. Yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Anyway.
SPEAKER_01It's kind of metal, then. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Okay. Let's thank you very much for being here. I'm going to read your bio because I want to make sure I do you justice. Okay. Um, I'm here with Mary HK Choi. She is the New York Times best-selling author whose work has appeared in the Atlantic, New York Times Magazine, Wired, New York, GQL. She's a McDowell fellow and has written comics for Marvel and DC. She's currently developing her books for film and TV and working on her fourth novel, which is super exciting. She identifies as a person with ADHD as well as autism, and her viral essay on being diagnosed in her 40s was published in New York magazine. Everyone should go read that right now. Follow her on all social media at Choi to the World as well as Choi to the World Substack that covers mental health, culture, and technology. Thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_01Thank you for having me. It's nice to see you. I know. It's been a really long time. Yes. We've done some things in between.
SPEAKER_03I know. Yeah. So Mary and I, we first met when I was a producer at Vice News Tonight on HBO, and you were a the culture correspondent.
SPEAKER_01I was the culture correspondence, true. We did one story together, right? Yes, but it was long and it was specifically in China. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03That was a good one. That was a good one. It was about the boy band that was not a boy band.
SPEAKER_01It's true.
SPEAKER_03It was totally ahead of its time.
SPEAKER_01It was pruscient in some ways and then just really depressing in others.
SPEAKER_03So it was a like totally manufactured boy band, but that was actually all girls, right?
SPEAKER_01Yes. But they were sort of quietly non-binary without ever being able to declaratively say that they were non-binary.
SPEAKER_03Yes, and not allowed to be sexual at all.
SPEAKER_01And not allowed to be sexual at all.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, that was crazy.
SPEAKER_01And the fandom was similarly sort of denuded and like very chased. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Where were we? I don't even remember.
SPEAKER_01I remember like where where is Tencent Plaza? Because like I feel like it was like were we we weren't in Shenzhen.
SPEAKER_03Where are we? No.
SPEAKER_01But we traveled because they were they needed to do like basically the equivalence of like some kind of conference for their like shareholders. And prior to that, they had never really performed before. So we were getting them at a really, really specific time. Like sidebar, I was I've definitely been in the same boat with like one direction before they performed at the MTV um music awards. But it was the energy was specific, stakes were high.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01And like if I remember correctly, like as with any boy band, and also what is gender even, but like with any boy band, they each had a specialty.
SPEAKER_04Yes.
SPEAKER_01And the one who was like the rapper, they were having technical issues. That's what I remember.
SPEAKER_03But that was a great story. Yeah, and that was so that was like that was like what 2016, 2017, maybe?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it was right before my first book came out. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and congratulations. Thank you. I mean, what was what what is there to even books? And now you're working on your fourth book. I am, yeah. That's really exciting. When is it supposed to come out?
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, speaking of um disrupted executive functioning and ADHD. Um, it was supposed to come out in 23, I believe. So it's it's late, but also like late for what? Exactly. Like, what is time if not time blindness? Yeah, like no, but actually it's it's funny, like, you know, I was diagnosed with ADHD and then autism, pretty much like within the sort of scope of the last however many years. So like it's kind of folded into this whole process of like my fourth book and what that means.
SPEAKER_03Right, yeah. It's funny because when we worked together, neither of us knew we had ADHD, I don't think.
SPEAKER_01Which is really wild to think about considering how many logistics we were saddled with and like what we were responsible for. Because you, as like a a real P producer, like were s was so on it. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Thank you. Oh, I think you know it's that time pressure, right? Like when you have the urgency, the external pressure, that's when you like kick in.
SPEAKER_01That yeah, and also like once you're on location, it's also it's almost like muscle memory slash like masking is like on turbo drive. So yeah, you're basically in a mech suit. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03But I also think that certain types of professions attract certain types of people.
SPEAKER_01Well, yeah, it's kind of like how certain professions attract cocaine addicts, you know what I mean, where it's like live things, like it's like, you know, I never thought restaurants, like it's like high octane, you know, one and done type things. High pressure. High pressure. Like if we think about all our colleagues and any sort of like predator, like producer, editor, like writer, all of those people, I'm not out here diagnosing people. But I'm just saying that it does attract a particular type. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I especially I think like freelance journalists.
SPEAKER_01Oh, hell yeah. Like all that that whole swath of like 1099 life people, I'm like, I'm looking at you. 100%.
SPEAKER_03And I think that's why like the name of this, like all my friends of ADHD, I think it feels that way when you have ADHD, because you end up surrounded by people who are neurodivergent in some way because you sort of just like end up in these like whirlpools that like spit you out in the same places by virtue of the way your brain works.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the way your brain works, also the sort of like nomadic peripatetic sort of brain thing where it's like, you know, pinwheel of doom, 18 million browser tabs open, and that actually serving you in a way. And also like a lot of people who are not linear thinkers, either they're like pattern matchers or like people who um do best when they're like reacting or are hyper-vigilant or completely dysregulated. Like, you know, there's a lot of like, you know, certain social mores, but also the systems and also just it's so hard. Like what person who isn't um people pleasing and slightly dysfunctional would put up with these conditions at times.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, totally. I also realize like working covering the war in Ukraine. I really do think the closer you get to the front line, the higher the incidence of ADHD amongst the people who don't have to be there. Because for all the things that you just said, like working in these crazy environments that are overstimulating, that are chaotic, like some people's brains are just better suited for that or they seek that out.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, there's like definitely a kind of winnowing or like culling that happens, and then the people who can really just like for lack of a better word, like put up with it for a really like sustained period of time, like that is gonna be like a certain certain type of brain or like a certain type of operating system. And then also like not for nothing. Now we're just going whole hog on like just wantonly like diagnosing people, but like it's that thing of like I feel like if you are undiagnosed, neurodivergent, and there are other things happening in your life, like if you moved around a lot or like you have a dysfunctional family or things like that, like there is certain types of PTSD and trauma that sort of like suit you or hardwire you in a way to be able to withstand certain situations versus others. Like, and make and truly make no mistake, I mean, I'm speaking about this, but like I'm a culture correspondent. Like, people are like, Oh, you're in journalism. I was like, hold on, I blogged a little bit and I covered culture. Like, I'm not a war reporter, I'm actually a terrible journalist. Like, I'm like vaguely, roughly was this. Like, who can say it's hearsay? You know what I mean? Like, that's the vibe. Um, but like what you do for like even the past year and a half for you. Like, I I don't know that I could live out of a duffel or a suitcase or like a fucking pelican, like you know, for so long. Yeah. Are we cursing on this pod? Yeah. Okay. You can do whatever you want. Sweet.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. I mean, honestly, I'm not sure how I've done it either, and I'm very done.
SPEAKER_01I mean, your 10,000 yard stare just now.
SPEAKER_03Oh yeah, she's she's tired. I am tired. I like and I've realized like I love no structure, but I also need structure, right? Yeah, and the lack of complete structure and the lack of being tied to anything, while so much fun, and also so aligned with my personality in so many ways. I also like I need a routine, I need like to stop thinking about the logistics of moving around so much. Like, I just need to be able to like think and work deeply for that.
SPEAKER_01Well, also, like, you know, we are um diversion-seeking people and we love variety and novelty and like you know, special interests. Like the thing about deadlines, it's it's just like even even if it's like the manufactured urgency of being like, wait, for your nap, like you know, whatever it is, it's like we really love that. Yes, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03So let's rewind a bit. Um tell me about how you first figured out you had ADHD. And I know for you, also being diagnosed with autism, it's all part of part of your mental health journey.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. I mean, that's the thing about ADHD. It's like there's an aspect of it where like the poster child is also is typically this like white kid, male, like kind of like the type of like, whoa, kid who would like be on a skateboard, you know, like whatever, like that guy, like disruptive. And that obviously wasn't my story. Like, part of it is that like girls tend to mask and can read a room, and despite what their needs are, you know, they do like display, and let me just speak for myself, like I did display a propensity for stifling that. And then also being East Asian, like coming from a collectivist society, there isn't a component of like you read the room, you know your place, like you know your relative social standing in a situation, and you've and you kind of like follow the rules. And so I was never gonna be the type of person where a teacher would pull my mother aside and be like, listen, you know, we have some concerns. Like, it wasn't not only was that teacher not aware of that whatsoever, it's like what Asian mother is actually going to attend the parent-teacher conference. Like, my mother was working, she was busy, she was like working in a restaurant, like, you know, so it's it's kind of that thing. And a lot of immigrant kids too, at least in my situation, it's like I'm not trying to make extra work for my parents. Like, they're not trying to send me to get assessed, they don't care about like that. Really is some white people shit. Like, they don't want to be a burden. I don't want to be a burden, but also they they don't see the point in like pointing out that there's an issue, you know what I mean? It's like, why go looking for shit? So so that was never gonna be it. I did get the report cards being like, you know, this she seems really into certain classes, and I say that to say she's really not into other classes, and she's you know, this one's a chatty Kathy sometimes, or like things like that. Um, but as far as like coming to terms with ADHD, like I always knew that I was prone to like burnout, basically. I would go into cycles where I would, oh god, like there's nothing I loved more than a bout of mania. You're just like so on it, you're getting everything done. It's like it's like so addictive, it's such a specific high. For like how long? The cycles, you know, I would say that they ran every like two or three months. Um and and so I would be incredibly productive and then I would really burn out. And I thought it was just like, oh, I I have anxiety or like I have depression. Um, but then actually in my 30s, when you know, like during COVID, and I've written about this, I wrote an essay for GQ, and then subsequently I wrote the New York Magazine essay on being assessed for autism. But like, as far as the ADHD thing is when my dad during COVID, well, actually, this is what happened. COVID happened, then my mother was diagnosed with um lung cancer. And so we were like, oh God, like this is a very, very bad time to need like a pulmonologist. And so we were dealing with that. They were in Texas, I was in New York. Um, this was circa like washing your hands, singing happy birthday. Like, this is like, holy shit, COVID lives for like 18 days on a surface, like, you know, all of this stuff. And so I was flying back and forth to Texas and like quarantining and then advocating for my mother's care because neither of my parents speak particular like that much English, and certainly not like insurance talking to like specialists English, you know, while they're the doctors are all wearing masks and my parents are trying to lip read, you know, things like this. And so um I was doing their patient advocacy basically, and then during this time, um, my dad was diagnosed with ALS, and so then it would became this sort of like double teaming thing, and then my third book, my third book came out right before that. So it was still in COVID, which I definitely don't recommend doing a book um tour during COVID because you're really just looking at your own face on Zoom. It is like the most painful thing, it's so painful to write a book for like however many years and then just be selling it to your own face on Zoom. But anyway, sidebar. But um, and then I started having these meltdown episodes like every two weeks, and I was just like, obviously, this makes sense, you're under a tremendous amount of pressure, but it felt wrong, like I really had a moment of I don't think it's supposed to be this hard, and there's my grief and just like fear, but there's just an aspect of this that is just so painful, and what I actually accredit that to is that like I think I think if you're just clinging on by your fingernails and someone like throws you one more thing, it's complete pandemonium. And I think that's what it was. I think ADHD plus doing everything I was doing plus one more thing absolutely broke me. And like I almost tried to get rid of my marriage just to have one less thing to deal with at the time, you know? Yeah. So that's when I was assessed.
SPEAKER_03I feel like that's what does happen for a lot of people diagnosed later in life, is that you kind of find your limit, basically, of you know, you spend your whole life juggling all these balls, and then all of a sudden you're like, this is too many balls. I can't do this. And then I think you know, you've like coped, at least for me, this is what happened. Like, I'd been coping, I've been doing fine. Like on the surface, everything is fine. Maybe it takes me a lot of struggle and suffering to make it appear so, but I'm handling it. And for me, I think it was, you know, after covering the protests in Hong Kong, doing the masters at Oxford, where it was like really, you know, during COVID, and then also covering the more in Ukraine. I was like, oh, I've found my limit, and I'm not handling things. And that's when I started really seeking some sort of answer to, right? Like, it shouldn't be this hard.
SPEAKER_01Like, well, that and you know, that's the thing about ADHD. It's not like a deficiency of anything, it's more this kind of like not sporadic, but like the metronome is like kind of faulty, or not even faulty, that's ableist language. The metronome is different, and it's different from like the way the systems of the world are set up. And so a lot of the time you and I both, and not to like toot horns or whatever, but like we were crushing. We were crushing. Like for any regular, degular, neuro regular person, I'm like, what are they even called? Um freaking brain normies, whatever, like just even one of those is a lot. And we, I think we just have such a high pain threshold, and like our tolerance for chaos and like multiple balls in the air is really high, actually. And so when we hit a wall suddenly there, and it all comes it, it's like cataclysmic. It's not just like, oh, our productivity is hampered by like six percent. It's like, oh no, it's the 404 error message. It's like everything ends on fire, Elmo is also has his hands in the air. You know what I mean? Like it's really bad. It crumbles, it crumbles, yeah. And it it it sort of detonates.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it's like you take, it's like you take the last block under at the bottom of the Jenga tower. Yeah. And it just yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it turns into shards of glass. You know, like it's like confade, but it's glass. Yeah, totally.
SPEAKER_03So you sort of hit a wall, it sounds like, or you were kept hitting a wall. And then how how so how did it happen? How were you how did you find the help that you needed?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I paid for it, like any adult person. Like, you know, I saw a psychiatrist. I was in cognitive behavioral therapy at the time, like any, you know, hygienic human being in New York or whatever, like, and then I saw a psychiatrist and I was like, I have ADHD, or I think. And they were like, you know what, pretty much at your age, respectfully, geriatric pregnancy-wise, like it's kind of like if you know, you pretty much know. Like, we will let's test you, we'll assess you. And because this was during COVID, and I also like I don't know how responsible this is ultimately, but they were like, let's put you on an amphetamine, and if it slows you down, you're definitely, you definitely have ADHD. And that was the thing for me. Like, I was put on um, well, I was I took Ritalin first for some reason. No, I was on Adderall first, and a very, very low dose, like I want to say like five milligrams or something. And and I will always this is like what it reminds me of. It reminded me of soft closed drawers. Like instead of that tab remaining open forever and like my computer being like after a while because it's like heating up, it's like the the drawer would just close and it would just stay closed, and I would experience this kind of peace with a decision, and the decision this the decision would be made. And I was like, holy shit, is that is that what it does? And it was, and so at that point I was like, okay, I definitely am responding well to this medication. I wasn't doing that thing of like cleaning all the grout in my tiles with a toothbrush. It wasn't like tweak, it was just like like I started taking naps, you know what I mean? And then actually slowing down on that amphetamine really gave rise to me understanding how fucking tired I was. And so then I was like, oh, like apparently this is a thing. So how did that change for you?
SPEAKER_03Did you start taking the meds regularly?
SPEAKER_01I did start taking the meds regularly, and then I then then things got clenchy, and it was almost like a different mechanism. It wasn't like you know, and then my brain changed completely. It was more that like I got so used to being on top of shit again that then I started piling so much onto my plate. And so then the hyper focus that you know, the on ramp for hyper focus just got that much sharper. Like it wasn't things that I was like innately interested in, it was just like I could make myself interested in anything, right? And then I ended up doing a bunch of shit that didn't give me that much joy. And then I started feeling really resentful towards anything that wasn't work. Um, yeah, so that's that's kind of what happened, and then yeah, the workaholism just became the issue because the burnout was still lingering and it was still there, it's just that I could like curtail and and honestly manipulate some of the sort of symptoms and side effects of that. But God, that was a good run. And that now I'm on Vivance. Um, actually, asterisk, I've been on Vivance for about two years, and that's been great. It's like it's like slow Adderall, or like Oh, is it? Yeah, it's it's not like um extended release. Right. It basically has like I think one or two of The four amphetamine salts that Adderall has, so it has fewer types of amphetamine in it, and it has to travel through the liver and be synthesized into the substance that becomes the sort of amphetamine. So like it just takes a little longer. It takes longer, it stays with you longer. It's like kind of a slow and low type of thing. It's like basically the difference between like a cookout and actual Texas barbecue. You know what I mean? It's just like that thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I I had been taking meds every day pretty much for the last two, three years, and for the last month or two, I actually haven't. And on the days I record these, I definitely don't because I feel like part of the reason why I want to do this podcast is I think that people with ADHD just often connect really well. And I feel like I don't want to like dampen the ADHD-ness to like hinder whatever connection that is.
SPEAKER_01No, totally. And also raw dogging. Like I haven't been on my medication. What I was gonna say about the Vivance asterisk earlier is that I haven't been on it for my maybe like three and a half weeks. Oh. Yeah. Why? Similarly, I'm in like deep, deep, deep edits on this book. And while the temptation to be like, I think doing five hours in a row, you know, at 4 30 in the morning is normal. Like I want to just be present and slow enough to make some of the connections that I may not make otherwise.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And like there's an editor, his name is Corey Sika. I he works at New York magazine right now, and he like was at Gauker a million years ago and was just like, I know, as an editor, I know when my writers are on Adderall. I can see it in their syntax.
unknownWhat?
SPEAKER_01And so that obviously made me paranoid. Like when people who abuse it. Okay. Oh, of course. Yes. But then it kind of got me thinking. I was just like, you know, there is this sort of monomaniacal sort of like viewfinder that happens when I'm taking medication that I'm like, I think I need to like pan out like a little bit or have that sort of ability to do that.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Versus being like all right up here.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I mean, I I love being, I love emeds. Like I'm so grateful that they're an option, right? Yeah. And they do make life so much easier. Like I describe them as something I can take every day that it just makes things easier. But then sometimes I do wonder, right, like if the way that my life has been built, as is for many people with ADHD, is because I've just like been forced to only follow things that I'm really interested in. Otherwise, I'm incapable of doing it. And if I sort of roll that back a bit, then will I start doing things that maybe aren't inherently as interesting to me? And totally.
SPEAKER_01I mean, like if you're doing like, you know, sadman, where it's like sad admin, then you're like, maybe I'll take my medication so I'll like actually see and do this.
SPEAKER_03But sadmen. Sadmen, sadmin.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, totally. That's my my friend Suze coined that. Um, but like, yeah, like it's just like like slog. Then I might actually take my medication and be like, okay, let's let's adult about this, for lack of a better word. Like, let's old person about this. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then how many years after you got your ADHD diagnosis did you get diagnosed with autism?
SPEAKER_01I mean, first of all, time is a scam as a construct. I mean, like, usually I I really don't know. It's probably about three years, I would say, where, you know, I had that piece and I was like, okay, there's a neurodivergency here. There is a little bit of a, you know a disconnect or some sort of like, you know, like the zipper teeth are not aligned in terms of like dopamine and your motivation to do things. The timing's a bit off. That's fine. And that felt so true. And even like it's like anecdotal, but like in my lived experience, I was like, oh, this is very much in keeping with that. But it still felt like I was like, but something's up, something's still up. Like, you know, similarly, like everyone I know is an AD, like has ADHD. I'm like in media, like everyone I know is like day job, you know, Shmey job. Like, I've never been able to be on Slack and do teams or whatever. And like people would be like, oh, you know, like I'm like a sauna, like any of these like apps where like corporate people do, I've never ever in my life had to do that. But I say this to say that like I was still like, but then why do I friend the way I do? Like, if everyone I know is neurodivergent and or newer spicy in some sort of way, then like, how come I still feel so uncomfortable around people that I've known for like 20 years? Like, how come I struggle with making eye contact? How come I've trained myself so hard to make eye contact with people and they like misinterpret it? Or um, and then you know, and and then it was just kind of like, Good God, do you need any more things? Like you you are just lousy with isms and like things, and and so it was that piece, but I just and then you know, like my dad died, and at that point, as I was grieving him, and I know that grief is such a deeply personal thing, but it was like I was really caught up, and I write about this in the essay, but like I was really caught up with propriety, where I was just like, it felt really public, you know, like I I you know, like weddings and funerals go together, and like I I never knew wanted a wedding. Like I the idea that people were just like, you know, gonna be like, ugh, just the idea of like every generation of my life noticing me, and then I'm dressed in white and walking down an aisle, like anathema. I'm just like, ugh. And so similarly, you know, being the the child of a man who died of a debilitating, you know, it was this whole thing, and and it was real churchy in terms of like the the funeral, and you know, I was the writer, so I had to make a speech and all this stuff, and and and I was I was just like how am I supposed to look as I'm like playing host to these feelings that people are supposed to feel when a f patriarch dies. Like I started noticing around that time that I kept calling him my father because there was a certain gravitas to like a dead father. And it wasn't like I was like milking for sympathy, it's just like that's what I thought the rules were. And I kept thinking, like, okay, well, it's distasteful to be crying more than my mother, because my mother obviously d quote deserves to miss my father more. And my brother, who is the the eldest boy, like, you know, deserves to miss my father. My my brother is also a father, carry the one, you know, times two children, so he gets to miss him that much more. And it really made my own feelings feel so conspicuous. And and also like I didn't know what to do with them. Like I was so used to performing and I was so used to masking that like it suddenly didn't align like this great tidal sort of like just like onslaught of sadness like wouldn't be siphoned into this like little role that I was expecting for it. And and so there was something in that discordance where I like basically had a nervous breakdown where I was like holy sh like holy shit, what's wrong with me? Like I I think that there are certain parts, you know, in a person's life, and I think neurodivergent people maybe really experience this a lot, where like I'm I I don't say this lightly, but like, you know, suicidal ideation or like depression or just like good, like is it supposed to be this hard? Like, my god, it's just so hard. Like, I think definitely in that moment, I was like, I I I don't know that I can do this, and also and I'm I'm not actually explicitly even saying that I was I had suicidal ideation in that moment, but it was just like like I don't know how to do this, and the wrongness that I am feeling is so powerful, and so what I experienced in my fat at my father's funeral was just incredible self-loathing. And you know, I was doing my best, like I think that that was a a part of me that really wanted to preserve me, and I I was like trying to hate myself into canceling out my feelings enough to be appropriate, and thank God I was in my 40s because I have enough compassion for myself where I was just like, hang on a minute. Oh my god, is that how you feel? Like it's so, so valid, but my God, is that so sad? And you're and I I also know enough to offer myself enough grace and to know that my my feelings and my beliefs may not align with like what's actually happening, but I know that I am loved enough and certainly not important enough to merit that kind of like self-consciousness or like conspicuousness or like inappropriate like impropriety. And I was just like, that's something we'll table that for now, but like that's something. And it turned out I like that was a lifetime of masking with autism that kind of came to a head.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. One of the things that you wrote about in your essay, um, which really resonated to me, because you know, of course, one of the th things that we have in common is that we both grew up in Hong Kong. Right. And also as third culture kids, as people who are really used to slipping between cultures, is by necessity, by of of existing in all these different worlds, you're always masking in some way, right? You're always code switching, you're always assessing what environment you're in and and realizing, oh, this is where I'm supposed to do this.
SPEAKER_01Totally. I mean, that's the thing. It's like, you know, I I had I was like, but how can you possibly be autistic? You are a reporter, you interview people for a living, like same thing could be said for you. You've you've accomplished so much, you've done so much. And then I'm like, yeah, because you have these like incredibly prescriptive roles. Like, you know, I I wrote on social media, I was like, I when you invited me to do this, I was just like, yes, like I really understand the assignment. Like I love podcasts as like hangout modality because it's like it's less loud than a bar. Like there's like less like auditory sensorial things happening, and we know we know what we're doing together, it's parallel play, but then there's like this joint thing happening. So true. And and so, like it actually makes a ton of sense because you know, all the work that I've done, maybe I'm like profiling a celebrity, which in and of itself is just like so entrenched in artifice and like what we're choosing to show each other, and and so I was just like, no, actually, what is counter evidence is absolutely just like the explanation, and so that's where I'm at now. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, a lot of your work is super personal. One of my favorite essays is the one you wrote about your mom. Yeah. I really love that one of where you wrote about how much you love your mom.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Um, is it a con is it hard for you to talk about such personal things?
SPEAKER_01No, I mean, I think that is part of my neurodivergence. Like, there's moments when a person who actually knows me is like, oh my god, like or will they refer to something I've written, and I'm like, where I'm like, oh right, yeah, that's like for for public consumption. Like it's it's out there. Yeah, it's out there, but it's it's less weird to me if like an absolute stranger knows like the innermost feeling in my like most sacred unions. But then if like my friend has read something, I'm like, that is like really that's not cool, man. You're like defiling the whole like social construct of this. So I I do have some like weird, not weird or just like specific hiccups. So it's not that. And I do think there's a a ton of solace, I think, in being the sort of like anthropological lens, where if I already felt so distanced by this fear or this feeling of being undiagnosed, which for me was like I'm an alien and everybody seems to like get it and have the rule book, and I don't have the rule book, like if I'm also like writing about them and the way they move, then that sort of insulates me from my own loneliness. And so there's I I dissociate on it a lot. Like, if I'm in a tough bind and I'm I'm already writing about it, and so in a lot of ways it is a gift and you know, the scourge of my marriage.
SPEAKER_03So as a writer, you're gonna be dealing with a lot of deadlines, yeah, and a lot of pressure. How do you deal with all the demands of your very busy and successful career having ADHD in autism?
SPEAKER_01It's really gnarly, you know, like I don't think I will ever be in a position to successfully onboard an assistant. Like I just don't think that can act. I was like, who has the time? My God, I'm like holding in like by the skin and the teeth. And it's so there is that aspect, and I know that that is you know, styming potential growth. Um you're doing great. But actually, with deadlines, it's like I kill myself. Like, I absolutely kill myself. Like, I have friends in my life who I love dearly who might be neurodivergent. I'm not sure probably if we're such good friends, I don't know, but they're always late to shit. They're like 15, 20 minutes late to shit. And that drives me fucking crazy because I just spent a truly deeply upsetting amount of money on a cab to get here right the fuck on time, if not 20 minutes earlier, because I'm me plus location plus time is like refueling a jet in mid-flight. I'm just like, you know what I mean? It's just like me, it's like it's so, so hard. And so a lot of the time I, in order to make that deadline, I do like a I like incomprehensible, frankly irresponsible amount of work. Like, but then so I have to say no outright, and that can be really sad. Like, I feel like a really shitty like citizen when people ask me to blurb their books. And you know, there's a lot of discourse around this, but like I like in order for me to blurb a book, it's two weeks of my life. Yeah, it's just like it, I I can't just like wing it and being like a stunning celebration of like a triumph, you know, 18 exclamations. I'm like reading the motherfucking thing and like being like, oh P.S. Do you want all the typos I found? Or some you know what I mean? Like it's it's like ah, like I would love to have chill. I have no chill. And so a lot of things I can't do. Like, I I just have to say no to a lot of things, and that can be really sad. And I also have a lot of fear around deadlines. Like, I basically scare the ever-living shit out of myself, and I'm you know, under the kind of pressure as if I'm being chased by dogs. Like it's just like that's how I do it. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, it sounds exhausting. I mean, I get it.
SPEAKER_01No, it's I mean, how do you do it?
SPEAKER_03Well, I feel like I mean learning to say no is definitely a big part of it, right? I feel like it's also just part of getting older and maybe just for a longer career, we're like, oh, I don't have to say yes to everything. Yeah, you're like, I don't have enough cartilage or collagen in my body to say yes to all these things, you know, like or it's just like I think realizing how much everything was taking a toll on me. And if I I think it was just repeatedly burning out where I would burn out, and then I think with this last burnout, which I'm really only just emerging from now, I'm just like, wait, I cannot do this again. Like, I don't know if I could if I would survive. Like, I just can't get to that point anymore, which means I have to learn how to like protect my energy. Yeah, which take care of my energy. I know, right? But it that is what it is, right? It's like you have to, I think I've realized I had to almost have like a more defensive strategy.
SPEAKER_01Totally. And that's the part that I hate, you know. Like I'm kind of coming off of that. Like, I definitely agree with you where you're like, I, you know, thank God you just do get to a point where you have enough muscle memory where it's like, don't touch the third rail. Like, just don't, you know, like that. But I'm really clenchy in saying no at the moment, and I would like to like I wonder what it would take to get back to that place of like whatever. Yeah. I'm a little bit trying to wing it, which between like the raw dogging sands medication and like winging is going really poorly, but like I do think there's something here where like I can trust that I have enough experience and wisdom to pull something off, or I can trust that I will do my best and I will have to ask for grace and I will have made a terrible judgment on how much time something takes.
SPEAKER_03Well, you've probably heard this, right? They're like to be a successful freelancer, you only have to be two of three things, which is nice to nice to work with, deliver good work, and be on time. So as long as you have two of the three, you're okay. And for me, usually it's the time one.
SPEAKER_01Really, you're bad at time? Oh my god, of course I am. Flavor, because I don't see you ever being like you're not late at delivery though.
SPEAKER_03Um depends. No, I am. I am. Really? Yeah, I'm really bad. I'm I'm late to everything. I'm late to everything, and I always miss all my deadlines.
SPEAKER_01Wait, and then are you on social being like I'm also surfing? Or are you like actually ghosted in in like a hellhole and like um it depends?
SPEAKER_03I feel like I just have so much going on that a lot of times I just forget or I don't realize, or it's just procrastinate. I don't know. I don't know. I don't even tell you. I have no idea. What's in I've just avoided deadlines. I'm at a point where I'm like, I don't want any deadlines, don't give me deadlines.
SPEAKER_01I'm also like avoidant attachment styles. Like, no, but what's like what are the apps on your phone that are like do stuff? Yes. I'm really bad at apps, and I have all of them.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, well, I just got robbed in Rio. Okay, tell me about that. Yeah. My phone was snatched out of my hands while I was using it. Wow. Middle of the afternoon in one of Rio's safest neighborhoods. I was and I was not paying attention. Yeah, you were right. I was like, I manifested that by being so I was literally I was just crossing the street. I think I was looking at Google Translate. I think it was translating a text message. And the irony is that that day I had taken my meds and I was feeling so productive. So I think I was walking somewhere trying to get something done while walking somewhere. And of course, that's when You know what?
SPEAKER_01I was thinking about this the other day. It's like not only is multitasking an ableist scam, but like it's like actually just a ruse. Like nobody can do it. See, I feel like I can only multitask. Here's my question: are you multitasking or are you doing a million things at like a million things in very small bytes one at a time?
SPEAKER_02You're attacking me.
SPEAKER_01No, because like I think multitasking is a legitimate. No, you're right. But I think we nibble. Yeah. We sort of nibble across the case.
SPEAKER_03Well, this actually relates to what we we're kind of talking about, apps. So I really the meta narrative to the thing that we're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I realize. So one thing that has worked really well with me is Duolingo.
SPEAKER_01I did not, I thought you were gonna say to-doist. I thought you were like, Oh no, no.
SPEAKER_03So do I do do to-doist, but like sporadically. But so duolingo, I have like an 860-day streak. They're actually quite forgiving. So I've skipped days, but I have like a pretty solid streak. What are you learning? It changes right now, Portuguese. I because I finished Ukrainian, actually. Wait, so are you like No, just because you finished Ukrainian Duolingo does not mean I can I can I can read, which is pretty good. That's really good. That's pretty good. And like get the gist of a conversation. Like just as good. But like you know, you hear enough nouns, you're like, okay, they're talking about that. Yeah, yeah. Mash them together, yeah. Exactly. Um but so with Duolingo, I realized, okay, they've gamified it so well that yes, we you can talk about how it's probably not the best way to learn a language at all. I mean, I mean, who cares? But the but they've managed to get me on the app every day for the last like two and a half years.
SPEAKER_02How long are you on the app for?
SPEAKER_03So that's the thing. Every time they're like, wow, you did that in less than two minutes. So I'm only really investing less than two minutes of my time. But the fact that it has me doing it consistently made me realize, like, wait, I need a duolingo in my life. Yeah, bro. Mm-hmm. So I found this app called Productive. And I have I showed it to someone once, and they're like, it's a it's like you put all the habits you want every day, and then you can swipe them, and that's it. It'll tell you when you have a streak. I never make a streak, but you get to swipe them and it makes a little doo doo. And like I showed it to someone once and they're like, you have brush teeth on here? And I'm like, give that back to me. Yes, I do. Okay. Well, that's a DH thing.
SPEAKER_01You need to have like everything in manageable chunks.
SPEAKER_03Because we love the like, yes, I'm giving myself dopamine, okay?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03And so I did that, and that was working really well. Finally, I was like, okay, I need to break my life into chunks into habits, and if I just do one of them every day, then I'm like going in that direction.
SPEAKER_02Well, but then like you said, I I realize I'm just nibbling away and not actually getting anywhere. You're not getting anywhere, or things are getting done.
SPEAKER_01You're you too be props.
SPEAKER_03I'm getting somewhere, maybe very, very slowly. And it's a very big destination. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01That's fine. I guess so. Like that has to be fine. I guess so. I mean, that's the thing, like, ever since I started writing books, like, it's like big game hunting, and like it's just it takes you so sane and long. Yeah. I'm like sitting here, like eating like a wildebeest with a spork. Like, that's what a book is. And so, like, you you gotta nibble, because otherwise you'll do it. How do you do this? Yeah, what are your symptoms? Obviously, like very slowly and poorly. But you're doing it. No, I do do it. I think, but where I where I got fucked up on this book is this book is the one where I realized I was autistic, and so it's the part of like the Truman show where he's like, ah and so I got really messed up because I was like, I was like, wait a minute. And it was Galaxy Brain because I was like, are my characters autistic, autistic, autistic, you know? And then when I got in that place, I was like, fuck, are they moving autistic? Is that autistic? Did they autism this other person? Did they autism back? Like, and then I was just like, wait, what are people doing here? And then I got so fucked up that I lost two years of my life doing that. Like it was like I just couldn't stop thinking about it. It was it was like sober drugs. I was like, why can't I like stop obsessing about this? It's like you almost like it, yeah. Totally like did not have purchase on it. Unfortunately, I'm also very efficient, or like just like I'm trying. So I've I've written like hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of thousands of words on this book, and it's overwritten. And so many, many of the gears are stripped. Like, I have to go back into it and just rewrite it by making it so much tinier. Like, I think like I'm killing something like six characters. Oh my god. In the next draft.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01And for each of them, I'm like, why were you ever here? And I was like, oh, you were here because I kept introducing you in the hopes that you wouldn't be autistic. But now, you know, I know that like, you know, like explain water to a fish, man. Like the world is autistic, like I'm good. And so now I like am actually sort of writing from a place of clarity and it's really, really beautiful. And I'm saying this in this kind of like la la la, wait, but like this took me so long to figure out. And I'm like three days old of knowing this. And like when a friend of mine, um, my friend Maeve Higgins, she's a comedian and an author and a writer and a an activist, and she was doing a panel in Ireland at a literary festival a few weeks ago, and she was just like, I'm speaking to neurodivergent authors, and she was like, Do you have any insights or questions that you would want to ask? And I was just like, Yes! And it and it was because I was like, Do you like go take this to a bunch of like a mind trust of autistic people and find the answer for me? Like, I was so desperate. And she she happened to voice note me and she was like, Oh my god, that question you asked was great. And the question was, have you ever thought about your characters being aut being autistic? And do you ever have a sense of like fear or paralysis around that? And this this author, um, her name is Nisha Dolan, and she's autistic, and she was just like, Oh, she basically said, Oh yeah, I don't worry about that because their world is autistic. And I had never thought about the world that I'm also writing these people into being autistic. And that took me off the hook. And I was I was like weeping for days. Like I cried about it because I was like, the relief I experienced that I wouldn't have to make them legible in any way in this world. Like it, I actually like not to be like woo-woo, or like metaphysical or whatever, like I felt such almost guilt in making these characters that would have to suffer and like experience loneliness and dis disjointedness, which is obviously what I'd been experiencing a lot as I was writing this book, and then my dad died, but it became autistic in this book, all this stuff. And I was just it was it was honestly like putting them all to bed and tucking them in. I was like, all of you guys are gonna be fine, and and that that like in turn let me be fine, and that gave me a kind of like peace and just like release, and it's from here that I I will be doing my latest, my next draft. So like everything's right on time. Yeah, and and to answer your question, like how do I do it? Like, increasingly I'm finding that I should not like I should just stop for a second and like be receptive to whatever honestly, like gift of grace, providence, uh, friends voice memo that will reach me at exactly the right time. What do you mean their world is autistic? Just that, like you know, there's this sort of ethnographic performance that I feel saddled with in terms of being in the world as a person who is neurodivergent that has to ultimately sort of fold themselves into systems that work so that I can live, make money, and not starve to death. And you know, I'm so caught up in that, and it's so hard. And I just didn't feel capable of masking on behalf of my characters. Like I I wouldn't know how to start that or end that or begin that, and the reason I didn't know how to do that is because it's so unnecessary, it's superfluous. Like I don't have to, and as a result, that book may not find this gigantic audience, but I also can't worry about that. Like none of the things I can have any control over remain out of my hands, but this way I don't have to like make myself miserable and kill myself in order to try. And it's a lesson I keep learning over and over again. I don't know about you, but like it's just like you're not gonna control this. Like I'm increasingly uninterested in like dawning myself into liking shit I don't like, you know, or like bullying myself into writing a certain type of book. So like I can't worry about any of it. But for a long time I worried really, really, really hard because I forgot.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. I think for me, learning self-compassion sort of came when I say like with age, I mean I feel like it came because it was just like I don't have the energy to be mean to myself anymore. Yeah, right. It takes so much energy to be self-loathing, to to bully yourself into being a certain way or or or yelling at yourself for for not doing things the way that you're expected to. And it's just like I don't even have the energy to do that anymore.
SPEAKER_01Or the ability. I mean, it just becomes increasingly untenable. And I think that that is that's really the gift of being old as shit. It's like or like just like working in like so many careers that have just died, but it's like not you just you just can't be that mean to yourself anymore. Like you just you literally can't, like, unless you need other things, like thank God, like you need other things in order to get it up to be that fucked up to yourself. Like, I need to be an addict and fucked up to myself in order to be continually fucked up to myself. Because the body, you know, not to be like keeps a score, but like the body at a certain point is like nabbitch. You know what I mean? Just like really, like it will just like it will take the thing you love the most and just shit on it. It's like, oh guess what? None of your hair is on your head now. Like that's what's up. Like, you literally can't do this, and like you notice because you're weirdly vain about that one thing, you know, it will just find it and it will get you, and that's how like age and wisdom works, and and truly thank God, and like and then you just get to a place where you're like actually being nice to yourself, it's so slow, but it doesn't not get something done, you know, like it's incremental, it's humbling, it's like doddering and like shambling, and like it's not zippy or strivey or sexy or neck veiny, but it it does do another richer, deeper thing, and like that's what you got.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. And I think the beauty of you writing about it and talking about it is that it sort of hopefully makes space for other people to realize it's also okay, right? Because I feel like you know, like growing up, especially somewhere like Hong Kong, yeah, there is not much space to be different.
SPEAKER_01I mean, Hong Kong too, there's no parents. Do you know what I mean? Like Hong Kong is so weird. It's 100%. We're just all like little like you know cabals of like teens hanging out in great clumps, and then and honestly, you know, in an expat sort of based situation, like a lot of people were moving, like, you know, you had you get to have a friend for like six months. It's like tragic. And so you code switch with a whole slew of other people. Like in if you're in an international school, then it's like, I mean, how many people like are mixing it up? Like, you know, it's it's just so much. Like, we're code switching, our parents are code switching. It's like all we see, it's just like these like mercurial sort of like wispy figures.
SPEAKER_03I had a friend who had a very different childhood. He grew up in like a very wholesome, very community-oriented place in South Africa. Okay. But he had cousins who went to international school. I think one of them went to international school in Hong Kong. Which one do you remember? I don't remember. We're like dogs. Yeah. But he, I think I was sort of explaining to him, I was like, yeah, it wasn't until later in life that I realized how toxic my environment was growing up in a lot of ways. And he was like, Well, yeah, you went to international school. And I was like, What do you mean? Dude. Turns out he's like, Yeah, I mean, it's a bunch of kids whose parents thought their jobs were important enough to uproot the entire family. Oh my god. And it means they're probably not really paying attention to their kids and all these things. And I was like, Oh.
SPEAKER_01I was today years old when I had that contextualized for me. And like previously I was just kind of like, oh yeah, but I was just like, oh my God, all of them were narcissists. Like it's well, I mean, it's and I think it rhymes with all of most of them were bankers, like a lot of finance people. But yeah, like I similarly, um, when I met my partner, they were like, oh yeah, like, well, you had, and they were like talking about America, like, and I was just like, oh yeah, well, like I've lived here, but I I don't really go here. And he was like, well, you do have that international school thing. And I was like, I was like, I I was like, oh, I hear the pejorative in that, but I don't even know what it is. And he was just like, you know, that thing of like your parents are chaotic and your friends were chaotic and like money was flying around. And I'm like, oh yeah, that, you know. But I don't know about you, but like I went to an international school, but my parents were not part of any corporation. Like my parents were in like, and when I say hospitality, I literally mean my mom worked at a restaurant. Like we were very, very different. Like being able to send us to that school was like all of their money, which is also very Korean immigrant. But so it was this confusing thing where like we had a tiny, tiny apartment. Like, I could not open a drawer until I moved to America. I would just like hit something else, and and then all my friends would have like junks, you know, the fucking standard charter junk, and you like are on this yacht that is being commandeered by a child on the weekend, like, and that was our lives, and it's like you know, crazy rich Asian style, where it's like, oh, this person lives in the mid-levels, and you're like, holy shit, you really live in the mid-levels, you know, and it was weird. And so code switching financially, big, big thing.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Um, one of the things that I really liked from your essay to switch topics dramatically, is how you kept a list of things you didn't like.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And it's really hard. Like, I it just never occurred to me not only that I was, and you know, it's kind of something's really sort of sad and facile about it. If I say like, I didn't know I was allowed to hate things, it's not that, it's just that like I was so caught up in masking that it never really occurred to me that like regardless of the situation and who I'm with, there are things that are constant that I dislike. And then the autism piece of that is that like I'm hyper hypersensitive. So I have audio auditory processing issues, like there's multiple conversations happening, if the sound bed is like really chaotic, and then God fucking forbid, there's music being piped on top of that, aka restaurants, big, big struggle. Now, have someone wear perfume. I'm like, okay, this is like really, really like extra like achievement unlocked. And then it's like, have some like weird social dynamic dictated where like there's like a hierarchy and this person is like the de facto boss, but uh-oh, this other person is actually the person who's like financing it. Ooh, like I have to curry favor across, like you know, like when I'm done with one of those that are usually like sort of like positioned as being fun, you know what I mean? Where it's like we're gonna you know, whatever the fuck, whatever that is, and I go go home, I'm catatonic for like two and a half days. Yeah, it's so bad.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I literally ordered three pairs of earplugs last night. I love earplugs. Tell me about your earplugs.
SPEAKER_01So I have so there's a there's a a brand of earplugs called loops. That's what I ordered. I ordered three pairs of loops. Well, loops are great, um, and they're, you know, they're not to be like they're autism earplugs, but like loops are really, really great for neuro neurodivergent people. I love just regular, degular heroes. Like the ones that you get, like it's H E A R O S, not a sponsor. Should be. It's just a bucket, and then I just have them in all my purses. Like I have a pair of heroes attached to my keys, but I'm so I'm always walking around in New York and I'm so scared I'm gonna like drop them down like a subway grate. And so I have there isn't a single pocket that doesn't have a pair of earplugs, like linty fucking loose earplugs. It's like me and Lip Balm. Yeah, but exactly. You just you never know when you'll need it. And when you need it, it's you really need you go from zero debt to like really freaking need it, and it's all I think about now. So I have heroes everywhere.
SPEAKER_03Okay, heroes. What about going back to systems? Is you never really revealed any system, like apps or anything. How do you keep track of things? I I had one guy on the podcast, he doesn't use a calendar. Oh my god, that's so amazing. I know. Wait, how? Independently wealthy. No, no, no. I think he just he just winged it and it somehow worked out. He's remembered things, but obviously often didn't. I don't know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I was mystified. That and also like, tell me you're a man without telling me you're a man. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. That sounds really, really fly. Um I use calendars. I use calendars for task switching, so like I I'll have a separate calendar alert for leave. Bitch leave. I have a different color code for if I need to leave my house. Like if the the appointment is you have to leave your house, then it's a different color. Because if I'm at home, I'm usually great just sort of like cascading into it. If like I would definitely have like brush my teeth. I mean, I don't have brush my teeth. I do have shower. Like, it's but only if it includes a hair washing, because that shit is like a whole ass thing. Um, I definitely share calendars with my partner, but and I have a lot of scheduling meetings. Like I will schedule something with a friend in order to like see them for dinner. I do that too. Is that not normal? I think people are just like, babe, babe, I'm not eating that. Bobby, sure. No, it's like, yeah, okay, well, how does it feel if I like send you some dates? Is that overwhelming? Okay, and so generally speaking, like what sort of like paradigm makes sense for you right now? Like for me, I'm really into walks. Like, how does that land for you? Like, it's really some like woo-woo shit, but like I need that, and that's why I have like fewer friends. I mean, you only need so many. You only need so many. And I really, really like this app that is no longer existent. I think it I think it it floats around. I love I love Google Keep. Does this still exist? I don't know. It's like the post-it one, right? Yeah, it's on my phone, so I'm still using it. Just don't update your phone. Never update it. Also easy. Um but like, and I love that because you can see the whole thing of it. And so that's really helpful. Um Yeah, that's pretty much it. Nothing is that advanced for me. How do you get down to write? Um, it's on my calendar.
SPEAKER_03Oh, so you have a designated writing time?
SPEAKER_01Designated writing time and also the thing that I'm writing, and I try not to deviate from that.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01How long are your writing chunks? It's it's how long I as I can make them. And so I usually sort of pair it up to like if I'm like writing a newsletter, it's like shorter, and can a newsletter can be split up into three, because I'll just do it. Um, actually, most writing other than books, I'll do across three chunks. But for books, it's like the rest bitch for the rest of your life. You know, it's just like write it write the book, write the book, right? You know, just forever.
SPEAKER_03Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Ending question. What would you tell your younger self if you could go back and talk to her?
SPEAKER_01I mean, I talk to my younger self all the time. She's really cool. She's like a little tank. She's really down to clown, huh? What's a tank? Like a tank. Like she's low to the earth. Oh. She's like really hardy and determined, and like usually really like excited and down to do anything. Like um, my friend, my friend Melanie Campbell um has this like theory, this like edict, I suppose, where it's like any human being can be split up into two camps team, I'm good, and team, I'm down. And I'm real team, I'm good. But actually, my younger self is very team, I'm down. And so I need to sort of like honor that. And yeah, I think mostly like that person just needs to know that like it's not gonna be like what we ordered off the menu, but it's gonna be great. You know, it's like life is like I was thinking about this the other day, like, in so many ways, like I feel so thwarted, and in so many ways I'm like, I'm not successful, and I I feel okay about that feeling never going away. Like, I feel okay about the fact that I may always feel that, and that's what I'm calling it, and maybe it's like the human condition, I don't know, and that's okay. And but there's all these other things in my life that I'm so grateful for, like profoundly, profoundly grateful for. Like, I found my best friend when I was four. Like, like I'm good, like, you know what I mean? Like, I are I I was crushing it at four, you know, like like just a person to hold me down, like I, you know, I'm in a relationship, and I don't I genuinely don't believe that everyone needs to be in a relationship. And I think that being a neurodivergent person in a relationship, it's really hard. But this person is hilarious and so clever and gives me so much grace. Also, an utter pill and like total lunatic in so many other ways, but like very grateful for this person and interested and like. Like I live in New York. It's the only place I'd ever wanted to live live when like I left Hong Kong. It's changed a lot and it's arguably gross and it's going through a real boom boom era that is hell on earth. But I'm grateful for it. Like I I love it, and it's something I've built. Like it seems passive almost to say that I live in a place, but this is something that I've I continue to earn and actually really fight for. And these and even being an author, like these are all dreams. Like I think the thing that I'm trying to tell my younger self that I try to tell my younger self every day is that like we end up making it. And it's really not what I thought it would be. And it doesn't feel that way at all. It feels really shitty and small, actually. But like we do make it. And like, and that's what I mean by like I hope to be able to like trust and let go more. Like I really I do hope that I can feel it one day. And I I I'm beginning to have glimmers of it, and I think that you know, every 60-year-old seems like pumped. Like maybe that's what 60 is. I'm not sure.
SPEAKER_03I do want I've I've wondered that also. Like, do people actually feel it? I think that's like, yeah, I'm I'm good, I made it, cool.
SPEAKER_01Not I made it, but like like good job me. Like, you know, like I'm I'm baggy and my knees are doing a weird thing, but good job me. Like that's what I hope. I don't know. I hope so too. What would you tell yourself?
SPEAKER_03My inner self? It's funny because like I asked this question, but it never actually occurred to me to Well, I'm bossy and also, so I'm um I think I mean I think I would tell Little the Ralph, that's what my therapist calls my inner self, little the Ralph. That's cool. Um, that it's just it's counterproductive to hate yourself so much. Um, my therapist says to me, she said, because I think at one point I said this, like, I feel like my main motivating force in life is self-loathing. And she was like, Well, that probably explains your depression because if you spend all your time with yourself and you hate yourself, you're not gonna have a good time. And I was like, hmm.
SPEAKER_02Salient. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03So I think I think um, yeah, I think I would tell her that it really doesn't have to be so hard. I think I just thought suffering was like that's how it.
SPEAKER_02Well, I just wanted to be cultural, right? Yeah, like suffering. It's working. How exactly it tastes like shit, then it's good for you.
SPEAKER_01It burns, it's working, yeah, totally. It's life is pain. Yeah, like I just I want ease, peace, and like just chill vibes, man.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. That's sort of my vibe right now is like I want to be less committed to struggle and suffering.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like just and it feels like Rob, like just like change the framing. But it it's like I am kind of at a saturation point with how much malevolence there is, like, there is no aspect about like a late-stage capitalistic society. Like, I don't know how much time you're spending in America, but like, bro. And on that note, it's like if I really harness all my attention and energy into focusing on that, like I will be totally miserable. And like that's the game, right? Like, that's actually what they're commodifying ultimately is that like self-hatred and that like egocentrism. Because what is self-hatred other than um an entitlement to like more attention than you merit, you know? Like it's it's its own type of like vanity. Yeah. Um and actually the final thing I will say is I had to write down everything I hated because I kept forgetting, and it's I actually I actually like recommend this for any non-middling white cishet male. Like if you look down and you're like a white guy wearing a poplin shirt and a fleece vest, like you're probably good. But if you're literally anyone else, then like there's something really edifying about writing down what you don't like and not making those mistakes again. It's it's pretty good. I like that advice. Yeah. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, yeah. Thanks so much.
SPEAKER_00All my friends have ADHD. All my friends have ADHD. All my friends have ADHD.
