Part 3: What is Abuse with Therapist Tabitha Westbrook

Get out your journal and a pen! You're going to want to take notes while listening to my guest Tabitha Westbrook who is a therapist and an expert in coercive control. This is an important episode about all kinds of abuse: what it is, what it's not, what happens when we come to realize we're in a relationship or a part of a system that's more than just difficult, what steps to take to get out, what we can do to receive support for understanding the abuse, the impact it has on us, and how to grow moving forward. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is a podcast hosted by me, Jen Vroman, where we talk about all of life: the good, the difficult, and sometimes the traumatic. Oftentimes I wonder if other people experience what I experience. In other words, I ask, am I really the only one? This is a space where we can feel more human and less alone. As we navigate the beauty, the complexity, and the tragedy that life often throws our way. We're all in this together, so we might as well get a little bit honest and help each other through. Okay, hi everybody. Welcome back again. I'm here with my friend Tabitha Westbrook. Let me tell you a little bit about her. Get ready. Hang on. She's a really amazing person. She is a licensed counselor supervisor, EMDR certified therapist, and approved consultant, certified sex addiction therapist, certified clinical trauma professional, and certified Christian trauma care provider. That's a lot of certifications. She's incredible. She is also the founder and CEO of The Journey in the Process, a counseling practice with offices in Texas and North Carolina. Tabitha and her team specialize in complex trauma with a focus on domestic abuse and coercive control. Tabitha is an internationally known expert and speaker on abuse, providing training to churches, therapists, and agencies. She also helps train domestic abuse advocates through Called to Peace Ministries, faith-based advocacy training, and is a Men of Peace partner, which is a faith-based batterer intervention and prevention program. Tabitha is the author of Body and Soul, Healed and Whole, an Invitational Guide to Healthy Sexuality After Abuse. That is available wherever you get books. So go and buy it right now. She lives in the Dallas area and she has a young adult son. And I am just incredibly honored to be in her presence and to just know her. So, Tabby, is it okay that I call you Tabby on the podcast? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. It's just, it's always good to spend time with you. I will never regret spending time with you. It is such a delight to my soul.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

That already heals so many different places inside of me, right? To be told that I'm a delight. I feel the same. My heart expands. My soul expands. Like that's what it feels like right now is just this expanse inside of my chest that I think I'm excited for what we're going to talk about today. I'm also expectant that, you know, it's some serious business. We are in a three-part series. The first part was what is trauma. The second part is what is story work. And the third part is what is abuse. And as I've said in the other episodes, these are heavy hitters, but they're so important. They're important to me. I know they're important to you, Tabby. And you're an expert in abuse. So that's why I have you here. I would love to start off by asking you directly. You're certified in so many things. You are an expert in domestic violence and coercive control. How did you come to be an expert in those fields? Why, of all of the careers in the world, why are you choosing to be in the one that you're in?

SPEAKER_01 3:33

Well, it's kind of chosen for me. So, like most trauma therapists, you become one because of what you've been through. And you got hopefully good help. Uh, the healthy trauma therapists have done their work and are doing their work. So I will just say that. If you get one that is not doing their work, they can be very dangerous. But, you know, it is part of my story, both in childhood and in my marriage. I was in a coercively controlling marriage for more than a decade. And I was able to thankfully get free as I healed. I felt that call to go get my master's and become a therapist. And I said at the time, which is utterly hysterical, I'm not gonna work with domestic abuse because it's part of my story and I just I want to be done with that. And God's like, oh, that's hilarious, and kept bringing me clients that were in that space. And I I couldn't say no. And there were things that I knew from my own experience, and I had learned through learning how to counsel and that sort of thing. And so I kept, you know, taking them on and going, I need to get better at this, I need to do better work at this, and stumbled into because God is funny, a conference from Call to Peace Ministries, because my Bible study leader said, Hey, do you want to help me pass out snacks? And I like to joke that now God got me with snacks. It works, you know, what can I tell you? And I met Joy Forrest, who's the founder of Call to Peace Ministries and also a survivor. And then I met Pastor Chris, who is a biblical counselor that does not suck. And he was the first pastor I had ever heard say the things I knew to be true about abuse and God and how God hates oppression. And I walked right up to Chris right after he spoke and said, Hi, my name is Tabitha, and we're gonna be friends. And we have been friends since that day. And that was back in 2017. And I said to Joy, hey, I'm a licensed therapist. This is what I do. How can we partner? And I've been a ministry partner of Call to Peace since that moment. So in that space, I've gotten more and more education from various sources on understanding the dynamics of abuse and coercive control and how it impacts us both in mind, body, and spirit, because we're whole people, right? It's not just one dimension and leaned into that as practice. And, you know, through my own experience, right, we comfort others with the comfort we ourselves have been given. And so, yes, I might be alphabet soup, but I earned the street cred, if you will, from lived experience and then, you know, just my own journey of healing and now walking with hundreds of others who have been in abusive situations of all kinds, whether that is in their marriage, whether that is in their family of origin, whether that is in their church.

SPEAKER_00 6:15

I'm thinking about the power of choosing pathways in our life because of what we've been through. And it's not maybe always like that for people, but I think that in your particular circumstance, what you're saying and what I heard is that you came from it, you survived it. And then it is now, I mean, your heart, your soul, your mind, your body's desire to turn around, go back into the fire, and help people find a way out. Is that accurate? I don't know. Is there another word picture that you would use for it?

SPEAKER_01 6:56

Yeah, what I usually tell my clients is I know you're in the valley of the shadow of death, but we're not pitching a tent and making camp. We're going out the other side.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Oh, I love that. We're not staying here. We're not staying here. We're gonna go out the other side. I love that. Oh my gosh, you're such a wounded healer, is what Henry Nowen called it. I learned that phrase in college, which is, you know, you said you earned your street cred because it's a lived experience. And even in that phrase, I'm like, this is profoundly difficult. This is profound grief that you have lived this and you're out the other side. You're still healing. There's always room to heal, to deepen right our relationship with ourselves, with others, with God. So it's not like, oh, I've arrived, but you have made it out of an abusive relationship. And so you are just the one to turn around and say, hey, I know what the signs are. I know what this is. I know how tricky our abusers can be. And I was even thinking about that too when you're talking about church, right? I come from a faith background as well. And I'm currently in a season of a pause with it because I need some space. Not that I need a space from my faith, but I need some space from like the church system and the church dynamic just for a second. I don't want to get too long-winded here, but I am just recognizing that you're you work a lot with the church. And how complex is that? That you're going in, right? The church often, it's a beautiful place, has the power to be a community that is vibrant. You serve one another, you love one another, you're there for one another in the highs and lows. But I'm also aware, just like with other systems, family, government, whatever, there's a lot of power. There can be a lot of money. And so when you have an abuser in that system, they can hide. They can hide under the guise of being a very righteous person. So, I mean, this is a loaded question, but like how has that been complex for you to be calling out abuse, to be showing people what abuse is inside of a system that has sometimes and often perpetuated abuse?

SPEAKER_01 9:20

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Oh, yes.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

So the core of abuse is power and control. And it shows up in lots of places. And power in and of itself isn't a bad thing, it is how it is used. Yes. That can be either productive or destructive. So we want to be on the productive and constructive side, not destructive. However, in high control religious spaces, there is destructive use of power. It is power over, it is domination. And that is not the heart of God, but we have been sold a bill of goods that that's what it looks like, that behavior, certain behavior, like it has to look a certain way, is the end all be all. And there's not a lot of room for curiosity and expression in healthy ways, right? And so spiritual abuse, by my definition, is taking someone's good and right devotion to God and using it as a weapon against them. And that is, I think in some cases, it's well-meaning. We want people to walk in righteousness and we want them to be above reproach and all of these things that are good desires. However, the methodology by which people think that you meet those desires is often destructive. And it's saying you must look a certain way. I went to a church years ago that would say these are these are authors you're not allowed to read. And Leslie Vernick was one of them. Leslie, who is one of the most unproblematic individuals I've ever met in my entire life and is so wise when it comes to abusive structures and relationships and things like that. And her books are filled with scripture, and yet she was considered destructive because it didn't meet the narrative that the system thought it should. And that is a tragedy because it's it's fear-based very often. And again, I think for some it comes from a place of wanting to honor God. It's just distorted. And for some, it is absolutely how they work out their perversions amongst other people. And again, this is not all churches. I just want to be clear about that. I have wonderful pastor friends who are amazing humans and who are not coercively controlling. But there are some in this system. And again, you alluded to it by this is one that attracts people who are power hungry. And then they slap, you know, Jesus on it. And for people who want to follow the Lord, it can be unbelievably destructive. And it's so much more than just a, you know, circumstantial wound, right? A car accident is a circumstantial trauma where it's like, yes, I had one car accident. I'm probably not gonna have 700 others. But if I'm going in every Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, all the youth events fill in the blank, right? I am being stabbed over and over and over again by the wickedness of it at times in those high control places. And so I'm getting wounded over and over. I'm told I don't have a voice. I'm told that I can't do this, I can't read that. I'm not a good Christian if I fill in the blank. And that is so soul level destruction because, you know, at our core, our truest self is in the soul. And so it's really dangerous. And then if you're in a family system that takes those rules, then you're getting it even more every single day. So now it's not just Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Thursday night, right? Youth events, it's every moment of every day. And then if you marry into a coercively controlling relationship, you just can't catch a break. And this is where we're seeing so much complex trauma come out of these systems and so much destruction come out of these systems. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Tabby, you already, and just what you have said, is just chock full of so many different paths, so many different ways that we can go. I heard the words power, control, fear. I heard the words like being stabbed over and over and over again. Like there's just not a break, especially for people that grow up in, like you said, or are in now, high control religions. And then it's in your family system, and then it might be in your marriage or, you know, in your other relationships. Oh, before we go forward, I did just want to say to you that what I love about you is your love for God and your love for church. You want the best for people. And so I just think that what I appreciate about you is that what you're doing, like the question asking and the teaching about abuse, like it's dangerous. That's what I'm aware of is that it's dangerous. Like you are confronting people in power, you are confronting people who are in positions of authority, and you do it so graciously, but you also do it so directly. Like you're not pulling punches, you're gonna ask a question straightforward. I just watched your episode with Matt Chandler. And I mean, watching you ask him questions, watching you ask what systems do you have in place at the church to protect survivors, right? Among many other questions that you are asking, but it's dangerous because people who are in power can come down really hard on people who are questioning them. And there's lots of cost to that cost of relationships, cost of job, cost of money. Like there will be all kinds of things that people will do or say to you to keep you from asking these questions. I see them as good, but they might see them as a threat. Does that sound true?

SPEAKER_01 15:04

I think it does. I will say, just for so people who maybe haven't seen that episode or don't know, I did not give Matt any questions in advance. I basically gave him a 30,000-foot view of like, hey, I kind of want to talk about how you screwed up abuse in the past. And he was like, Cool, I'm down with it. Nothing was off limits. Nothing, he didn't fail to answer any of my questions. Like he was in it like all the way. So I'm truly gracious and grateful for, you know, his willingness to come to the table with me. So I just want to say that directly because I think it's important. You know, other leaders might not have been so gracious. I have talked with other pastors, not on my podcast, but on other platforms or at a conference. I sat in a session that was legitimately harmful, like legitimately terrible on sex, sexuality, and some of the things that were said were terrifying to me to hear. And I knew how they would play out because I've seen it, you know, and and while I think this person, again, was well-meaning, I think it was short-sighted and it was a lack of understanding of trauma, of abuse, of those kinds of things. And when I talked to this pastor afterwards, I basically got a pat on the head and I even gave him my business card and said, I'd love to talk more. I know you're busy. We're at a conference. I'd love to just have a conversation. And to date, I still have not had a conversation with this individual. They've never reached out. And it's because they do not see what I bring to the table as valuable. But what I can tell you is after that, when this there's a person who recognized who I was, has followed me on the podcast and some other places that I am in, and saw me ask a question and asked what I asked. And I said, This is these are my concerns. This is what I asked. And that person fell into my arms sobbing because the very things that he was saying from that teaching that other pastors were gobbling up in that room had ended up with her being in an abusive marriage and a coercively controlling marriage and deeply harmed. And she said, I'm so glad to see you in here because I thought maybe I'm wrong. It wasn't what I thought it was. And so here's this powerful person using these words. And she's doubting her own reality, like the reality that was bad enough for her to have to leave that relationship because it was patently dangerous. Yes. And she had been sexually assaulted from the time they were dating and what the pastor had told her. And this is the advice that this other pastor had given in this session was well, if you're burning in less, you should marry quickly, instead of asking the question, which is a much better question here, is why? What's happening? You know, and saying, Are you being coerced? Because when a woman comes to a pastor and says, I'm going further in my dating relationship physically than I'm comfortable with, it's not because she's a floozy. Generally speaking, especially if they're coming to a pastor feeling those feelings of guilt and wondering what's going on, but something else is going on. And in the in so many cases with so many women, what I see is there's sexual coercion happening. And you know, and and that needs to be addressed because what the pastor should have done for this woman is confront the coercive controller in that relationship and start going, how are you doing relationship? And how do you see women? And what do you believe about this woman that God has given you and all these questions that would have been so helpful and that would have spared so much heartache for her. And and and that's the story I see play over and over again when we are short-sighted and we don't give enough understanding of abuse to the congregation. And I actually did an episode shortly after this interaction because this pastor said, Well, I mean, like these are things I understand, but I didn't have time. And so I timed how long it took for me to give some caveats on abuse. It was 10 seconds. 10.

SPEAKER_02 18:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

In an entire sermon, I could give 60 seconds with all kinds of great information and point people to our care team. If I had one of if I were a pastor, and look, I'm not a pastor, I'm not saying I want to be a pastor, none of that. I'm just saying, structurally speaking, this is how it could work. Yeah. And it would take one minute of an overall sermon to provide safety for those who are oppressed or at risk of being oppressed. Why isn't that worth it? Why isn't that worth it? And so I think that's what my hope is is to invite pastors and elders and leaders, both men and women, to think differently about abuse, to understand how prevalent it is and to understand how easy it is for any of us to like slide in that direction unintentionally, either because it's tradition we grew up in and we didn't ask questions.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:36

Like, so if you go and look for yourself, are these things I've been taught true? And then you're you're, I believe you're your feet are gonna end up in good places when you go in with those curious questions and an open heart. And and so I want to invite as many leaders as will talk to me into that place of let's be curious together. I'm not saying I'm always right, but let's let's dive in it together, let's wrestle together.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah, yes. And I I just keep hearing over and over again the phrase ask questions, be curious. I think that this conversation is important because so many of us have been in relationships, whether it's in a dating relationship or marriage or in a church or in a workplace or wherever there are people, and we don't feel that we have the freedom to speak up or ask a question. And I think that that is a big red flag, but I I don't know that we always see it as a red flag sometimes, and especially so in those high control environments. You see it as like, well, I have full trust for this person and they're leading me in this direction, or they're saying these things, or they're doing these things. And yeah, that's right. I shouldn't ask the question because that would mean I'm questioning their competency and I don't want to do that, and I want to be, you know, more agreeable or whatever we've learned to be, or sometimes it's straight fear. Like we don't ask the questions because fear has been presented on the other side. If you do, then these are the things that happen to you. You get ousted, you don't have belonging, you lose your job, you get made fun of, you're now the crazy person. Uh, you're now the troublemaker, you cause waves. I mean, just there's so much here, Tabby. So I want to invite people to do what it is that you're saying, which is be curious and ask questions. Even if the number one way that you can start to ask questions is by writing it on a piece of paper for yourself, getting those questions outside of you and onto paper, and then making the steps toward asking. Questions of the people that are in your lives or your relationships. It takes a lot of courage. There's a reason why you're not asking the questions or not speaking up. And oh, it might be because of the kind of relationship that you're in and the kind of person that you're in a relationship with. So I want to pause really quick because I want people to know that our paths crossed in narrative-focused trauma care training, level one. I've talked about narrative-focused trauma care training before. I've talked about the Allender Center. And this is how I know you, Tabby. So listeners listening, this is how I know Tabby. We were in a group together all year long, where we were sharing stories of harm from our childhood, and we were learning how to engage stories, both how to bring them to a group and also how to engage other people who were reading and bringing these stories of harm, trauma and abuse. So here's what I want to say. And I think that it feels really important to me is that Tabby, you were one of the very first people who heard some of my stories of trauma and abuse before I was even ready to call them trauma and abuse. So that's this tricky part, right? Is on the front end, we've just talked a lot about systems and asking questions and abuse and calling church leaders and people who are in power, right, to be curious and calling people in general to be curious. But we have to start putting some meat on the bones of okay, what does it mean that something is abusive? And what does that look like? And how are you allowed to call something abusive? And I guess what I'm even trying to say is that there was a time in my life where I wasn't calling things abuse that had happened to me. And instead, what had happened to me was just showing up in my body as symptoms and mainly shame. I mean, I treated myself so poorly from the inside out. I think I took a lot of fault for what happened in my childhood and in my teenage years in some of the abusive relationships that I was in, both in dating and in my family. I took a lot of like responsibility for it. Oh, it was me. I deserved that. Yeah, I was difficult. Yeah, I did choose to do that. And so then when I show up to narrative-focused trauma care training and they invite us to tell these stories, Tabby, you are one of the faces in the group that looked back at me and was with me, but asking questions and opening up this window for me to explore, oh, maybe what I experienced wasn't just difficult. And maybe what I experienced wasn't just like all my fault. What if what I experienced was traumatic and abusive, particularly? So with that being said, how does how does that happen? Like how does a 30-some-year-old person show up to a conversation or to a group, whether they're in therapy or they're doing story work or they're, you know, just in a group among friends and they're sharing stories. How does that happen that somebody comes to realize, oh my gosh, I've spent the last 30 years believing that this was my fault or believing that I was the difficult one? But actually, what this is, is I've been in an abusive relationship. I've been abused. That shift is huge. It is, it's seismic. How do you how does that happen though? How come I didn't realize that? Or people don't realize that when they're in it?

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Well, it's perfectly normal not to realize it. So especially with developmental trauma, which is where abuse in childhood sits, right? It's what we know. The most important people in our lives are our caregivers. And we come into the world looking for someone, looking for us. That is a quote from Kurt Thompson. And when we do that, these are the people that hold the keys to our living. Now, we don't have the capacity to say that, but we intrinsically inside ourselves know that to be true. As a child, why do you think kids cry when they don't, when they're not fully understanding object permanence, right? If mom leaves the room. Because mom's gone, mom's just gone. If you don't, if you're like a two-year-old, you like do not know that mom's coming back. And so when we have caregivers that are neglectful, they are abusive, they are harsh, they are cruel. And I'm not saying parents that make a mistake. This is a different, you know, a different situation. These are patterns of power and control. And so there's a pattern of neglect, a pattern of harshness, a pattern of unlovingness, a pattern of diminishing someone. Um, when those are present, you grow up thinking, this is me. And this is how kids are. All kids, we can take it out of the abuse context and look at divorce. How many times have you heard the kids, you got to really be careful because the kids are gonna think it's their fault, even if it had nothing to do with them?

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

That is true of all kids. They think it's them because that's just how we're wired. And so when your parent says to you, you're so difficult, not you're having a difficult day, I want you to notice the difference in words. You're having a difficult day, or if they say you're so difficult because they're having a moment, they don't make a repair. They don't come back and say, Oh man, I'm so sorry that I, you know, said this, you know, it was really harsh and unkind. And, you know, I'm I'm bringing it to you and I'm gonna I'm repenting, I'm turning around and going a different direction, right?

SPEAKER_03 27:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:54

If that is just the the vibe that you drink in of you are the problem, you are so difficult, you, you, you, these are tantamount to curses being spoken over you for your own survival. You make a vow with them because you say, This must be true of me. I need to be better so this important person in my life will not harm me anymore. Yeah. And I can be loving and pleasing to them because we're created for belonging, we're created for connection. And so when that attachment is ruptured through cruelty and abuse and neglect, like we have no other way to think until we are diving into our own story. And that's one of the things I love most about story work is again, it opens that window and says, is there something else here that we might want to consider? And you and I did a story engagement on my podcast where you engaged one of my stories. And I am 50 years old, 5'0. We were doing a story from when I was 13. Yeah. I'm a trauma therapist. And so I think about story and my story and all kinds of stuff. I've done a lot of my own work. But in that moment, just weeks ago, you and I hit something in my story I didn't even realize previously because I hadn't ever opened that window. Yeah. And so when someone goes, Is there, is there something to be curious about here? Or they're hearing it and reflecting back to you what they hear. Like, wow, that sounds like a terrifying situation. What did you notice in your body? What do you notice in your body right now as you think about it? Like it gives us so much clarity to go, oh, maybe that wasn't a good situation. I've worked with survivors from spiritual abuse who were like, I grew up thinking that God was extremely harsh and unkind. And if I so much as did, you know, one thing, I was outside of his perfect will and I was in his permissive will, and he was going to break my legs as a sheep so that I wouldn't disobey again. That's actually something I heard in my youth. And I was like, oh my goodness, imagine what it was like when someone goes, Have you ever looked at how shepherds do care for sheep? And then you can go do a deep dive on that. Thank you to the internet. And you realize that if you were to break the legs of a sheep, it would actually kill them. And so God's not breaking our legs. He gently picks us up and brings us back. And then you have people who go, Oh, well, I mean, God disciplines those he loves. Can we talk about what discipline is? Because it is not sometimes what you were told in a high control space. Discipline is a lot of things. Discipline a healthy discipline can be running every day. Like that's not breaking your legs, it'd be real hard to do. Right. So when we look at those things and we look at it and we start going, let me be curious. You know, I have questions. In a group where we're engaging stories, you can get other people curious with you. Yeah. And, you know, it can be such a profound shift when you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? That's not normal. What do you mean that's not normal? Yes, that. And that is, it's disorienting, but it's beautifully disorienting.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

I'm sure lots of professionals would say a lot of different things, but like you just touched on my experience is well, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that this was not something I deserved? Wait, wait, wait, wait. Are you saying that this relationship that I was in, I was in because I was set up to be in it. Why, why would I run to a relationship like that if I had a healthy sense of self? Right? It is disorienting. I remember, and I want to tell this story because I think that it's these kinds of experiences that have happened over and over and over again to me that have led me to being able to name my story more accurately, uh, more honestly. I was in college and I was an RA, which is a resident assistant. I lived on the floor. It was my job to, you know, check in on the people living on my floor and create events. And it was essentially like a little manager, you know, a little manager to the high manager of the dorm. I don't know if that's the best way to describe it, but that's just the easiest way if you don't know what an RA is. And so when the freshmen were moving in to the dorm, it was my job to walk around and greet them. Hi, how are you? Here are things that are going on this week. So glad to have you. So I walk into one of the freshmen rooms, and what I see disgusts me. So just pause for that. All it was was my friend at the time. Well, I didn't know her, but she would become my friend. She was sitting on her dad's lap, and her mom was right beside her. And there wasn't anything inappropriate happening between her and her dad. She just was sitting on her dad's knee, and her mom had her hand on her back, and they were setting up her computer. And that kind of like close touch between two parents and a child repelled me. Like I, something happened inside of my body when I saw it and I ran away. And I know that like when I'm describing that, people can hear it and say, well, oh, maybe there was something sinister happening between the dad and and the and the student. No, I don't think that's what it was for me. What it was for me is that I have so rarely at that point, I was a sophomore in college. I had so rarely experienced that kind of affection from mother, father, that I couldn't make any sense of it being right in front of me. It was one of the first times that I looked at something and said, Oh, I don't want to look at that. But then after reflecting why I didn't want to look at that, it was because I had not ever really experienced that. And I had no framework for it. And it scared me, but I both wanted it. Like it was, it was a moment of a collision of what I had not experienced in my life. And I was witnessing it right in front of me, and it was extremely disorienting. And then I got to know this friend, and her parents would come on campus. And that sort of like her sitting on her dad's lap, that did not happen again. But like she had a really great relationship with her mom. We went and we visited her house, you know, on some weekends that we would leave campus, and they just had a really um, not perfect, but a really healthy family. Her mom cheered her on and was really close to her, and she trusted her mom and her dad she looked up to, and her dad was very tender with her. And I just sometimes remember being around that family and almost disassociating, but also observing it from like, this is what a healthier dynamic looks like. And I had grief in my body, but also this like desire to build that kind of family for myself or to build that kind of connection for myself. And so I think that having somebody else's life to look at, to observe, I think what I'm trying to get at is that we need other people to reflect back to us. We need to see dynamics that are healthier than the ones that we're in. Or we need to see or hear people listen to our stories and reflect back to us how sad or terrifying or not okay something is for us to, yeah, be disoriented, right? Because it's all we knew, but it takes that disorientation for us to then be invited into asking the questions what kind of relationship am I in? And, you know, like why? And do I want to be in it still? I don't know. What did you hear even when I was telling that story from college?

SPEAKER_01 36:36

I think it's a profound story because I hear that beginning echo of disorientation. Yeah. Right? Like, oh, I'm uncomfortable watching this, but why? Right? Like there's nothing inappropriate, right? And I do think that's an important underscore because a lot of people will immediately go there. I would also invite them to be curious about why that is the first place they went. You know, of like, oh, there must be something nefarious happening when we are faced with real tenderness. Now, obviously, we always want to ask questions, be discerning, right? But in a situation that is truly innocent, that is just healthy, you know, expression of care, when that is something that is like, you know, face to face with you and you're uncomfortable, asking that question, why? Right. And I think that on the journey to us having understanding, there are little windows like that, little moments of time. When I was in my early 20s, I literally was so emotionally shut down. People would never believe that to the at this day if you didn't know me at the time. Um, but I was probably 20 years old at the time. And I remember someone telling me, like, I can tell you the worst thing ever, and you act as if it is no big deal. Like I my affect was so flat because I wasn't allowed to have emotions. Not in my marriage, not in my home. It just they weren't, they did not exist. And I remember being profoundly curious about that. I'm like, don't people like happy people? You know, and it and it wasn't that I was happy, it's that I was numb, you know, and that was my first moment for that of disorientation of like, wait, what? You know, like I mean, I genuinely care about people. What is happening? Why do you feel uncared for? Because I'm not reacting, right? Because my emotions were just so stunted, you know. And in that moment, you're faced with your moment of disorientation of why why don't I feel good about this? Why does this feel uncomfortable to me? But also, why am I longing? And I think that our longings are such a good indicator to ask questions. We do want to be curious, like, and you became over time curious about that longing for that connection and that parent-child relationship that you saw but you had never experienced. Yes. And I think that is the beginning of things that were once normal and that we are habituated to, right? They're just this is our habits, our normal. That we start to go, wait, maybe it's not, you know, and and there's also good things, right? Because in story work, when we are with others, when we're in a group, because I believe firmly that healing happens in community, you know, and there are a lot of ways that the healing path takes, whether that's in counseling or in group work or all of the above. Um, if you can do it, I 10 out of 10 recommend do all the things if you can. Right. But, you know, you start to go, oh, and the things that are good are affirmed. The things you're almost scared to say. And if you came out of a high control religious environment, you'd be like, oh no, I have to feel prideful. That does not mean that you can't celebrate the gifts that God gave you. We are allowed to rejoice in the gifts that God has given us.

SPEAKER_02 39:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

And we are able to rejoice in good things. And I think sometimes we just don't. And so in story work, that's one of the things that often comes up. I I remember we named in your stories curiosity. And that's again profoundly disorienting because you're like, Am I even allowed to say anything nice? What's happening? But naming that curiosity and that like knowing of something wasn't right, like there's a truth teller aspect there that is so important and given to you by God that we want to call out the good. So I think when people think story work, it's like, oh, we're gonna name all the harm. Yes, and we name all the good. And that is also part of it because you're saying that, like, even in this constellation of harm, the Lord created a light in you that never was able to be put out, no matter what was thrown at you, otherwise you wouldn't be here. And and so here you are with this beautiful light. When we are naming harm adequately, we can also name good. So they're not mutually exclusive, which I think trips people out on occasion. And so when we do that and we start to go, wait a second, what is true? Then we can go, what is true in all of the areas? And that's why naming harm is important. Because if I don't name the bad, I cannot see the good because I'm all bad if I do it that way, right? But if I go, yeah, this was not ideal, you know, this this wasn't this wasn't good, this was harmful. And I'm a curious questioner. I always have been, and I always had a zest for life, and I always wanted to, you know, have stability and goodness and all these things, and those are good. And so when you can hold both things in that tension, it's such a growth edge for people.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Yeah. Yeah, it really is. Being able to name the full truth, you know, even touching back into what you said about being happy, like you were numb, you know, and man, learning to live fully alive, learning to be able to celebrate when you want to celebrate and feel sad when you feel sad and feel angry when you feel angry. And I think we haven't really even defined abuse, but I think talking about the surrounding circumstances of abuse is getting at a kind of relationship that we're meant to be in, which is honoring and dignifying and kind, also supportive and able to repair. Like these are some healthy versions of a relationship. Like you're not gonna be perfect, you're gonna mess up. And when you mess up, you learn how to come back and say, Oh, I did that, or you come back and you have the freedom to say, ouch, that really hurt me. And then the other person says, I'm sorry, or you say I'm sorry, and then you reconnect that relationship with each other genuinely. But abusive relationships, Tabby, help us put some meat on the bones. Like if what I just described was kind of like a healthy relationship, maybe what you would experience when you were a kid or a teenager or a young adult or even now in your family, in your church, in your work, wherever there are relationships. How come something is abusive? How are you allowed to define it as abuse?

SPEAKER_01 43:00

So, abuse is by its definition underpinned by power and control. So I'm going to use the term coercive control for abuse because I think it's a little bit broader. Um, and we oftentimes when we hear abuse, we think physical, sexual, and those are abuse, and also it's a little more insidious, but it's a pattern of behaviors used to dominate, manipulate, or strip away another person's autonomy over time. And so it is overt and covert. So a lot of folks, when I do battery intervention, they do not love saying I'm an abuser. They they just don't. I'm like, well, then you can call it a hand sandwich if you want to. Let's talk about the pattern, right? And and ultimately, though, being able to say, that is what I have been doing. I have absolutely exercised power and control over another and used it for my own gain with with no care for that other person at all to get what I want, whatever that is, right? Now, for parents who have been coercively controlling or abusive to their children. But a lot of times it's well, I want to make sure I please God, and you need to be in line in some modern evangelical spaces that spare the rod, spoil the child, praise your child into submission, they need to conform. We're big time messages. So in some cases, parents were doing exactly that, but in an effort to make sure their children grew up good. Right. You know, and it came from a place of love, but that doesn't make it right. The methodology was deeply flawed, even if the spiritual hope that had been sold to them was largely good.

SPEAKER_02 44:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

And so, you know, parents, you know, are gonna fall into that place as well. So, you know, when we understand what abuse is, and look, I am not a fan of misusing words. If you watch TikTok, you know, everything's abuse, everything's gaslighting, everything's been misdefined. I am not that woman. Yeah. Like we're gonna call it what it is and we're gonna not call it what it's not. A disagreement is not gaslighting. I can disagree with you and I'm not trying to change your reality. I'm just telling you I don't agree. And so I'm not saying that. I'm saying this is a pervasive pattern of power and control over another person, which is why I've said a number of times that pattern, you know, and and whether your intent was harm, the impact was harmful. So you may have been a well-meaning parent who was trying to raise your kids, you know, and you heard spare the rod, spoil the child, and you thought that meant beating them and, you know, making them conform and letting them cry it out, and all of these different things that we know now are developmentally wholly inappropriate, but that you were trying, right? And so if you're a parent listening to this and you're like, uh, oh no, like look, man, repair is something you can do. You can go back and go, I was listening to this podcast, and I realized that some of the ways that I raised you were less than helpful and I'm sorry. Yeah. Like, and sit with the pain of that and like wrestle through the pain of that together.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:52

Dude, that's so healing. How many, how many adult children would be like, thank you, mom or dad or caregiver for doing this, you know, and saying, like, all I've ever wanted was you to acknowledge the pain that it caused, you know, and and from there repair can happen. I think Matthias Barker, who's a therapist, who's pretty popular on Instagram, Matthias has a lot of good things to say on this. I would commend his work to people, especially if you're a parent who is struggling with estrangement and wondering what happened, and you're sitting here realizing maybe there are a few reasons for it, that maybe there is space for repair at this point. Estrangement's a larger thing, and and no, I'm not always in agreement with being estranged from people. So, like we we would need another three hours for that one. We don't have today. Um, so I'll just say that that please note I'm I'm giving you some very high-level treatment for a very nuanced issue. Yes. Um, but no matter how you got there, naming it for what it is is important. One of the things we say a lot in therapy is name it to tame it. I cannot deal with what I do not know.

unknown 46:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:52

And so if I don't realize that what happened in my life had destructive properties and was not helpful or healthy, then I can't deal with it. That doesn't mean we don't have post-traumatic growth. That doesn't mean that it doesn't, you know, form us in good ways. I would say that my own story gave me a lot of compassion for other people, you know, and and that is a beautiful thing. God does not leave us without hope at all. And so post-traumatic growth is a thing, it's a studied thing. And so you can come out the other side and be much stronger. Now, I've seen the memes that say, you know, yes, you tell me what didn't kill me makes me stronger. Well, I shouldn't have had to go through it in the first place. I agree, and you're still stronger, right? Both things can be true. It's called a dialectic that we synthesize. It is holding that tension of the, yes, this was really terrible. And it was, in fact, really terrible. It was abusive, it was destructive, it was not healthy, and I am strong, I am compassionate, and God is healing me, right? Those are two things that can both be true at the same time. It is a tricky tension, there is grief and lament that has to take place. So I'm not shortcutting any of what the healing process takes. Yeah. But it starts with naming it for what it was.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

Yes. Yes. Uh like I feel like you just spoke some encouragement, you know, to my soul before I had the courage to go to therapy. It was a friend. Like I started with a safe and trusted friend. I mean, 20 years ago, I would not be able to say the particular things about my story, about my life that I can now. And that's that's post-traumatic growth, right? That's on the journey over the last 20, 20 years of the uncovering, the discovering, the grief, the healing, the learning to play and create and name and cry and be angry and all of the things that go along with recovering from trauma and abuse lifelong, right? But before I was able to call a therapist, I talked to a friend. And then, you know, that friend was kind to me, but the stories that I was bringing were really heavy. And it's not because I was too much, it was just because the stories were heavy. The stories were these memories from childhood, from my teenage years. And my friend didn't really know how to support me in that. And so, you know, I could have felt really lost and alone. And sometimes I did. But the next step for me was therapy and calling a trauma therapist and um meeting with them. And you would say, like, not all therapists are gonna be great for someone, but that there is going to be a trauma therapist that will walk with you in the journey of the naming and the diagnosis if you need one. And I don't, I don't know the words for it, Tabby. So I guess maybe I'll just I'll throw it back to you is that for anybody listening, you have a childhood, you have a teenage years, you have a young adulthood, and you have the relationships that you're in now, relationships across the spectrum in all different corners of your life. I hope you're being invited to ask questions. And if some of these questions are unearthing the, oh man, I think there's something here. Tell a friend that's safe. But then also, Tabby, what would you say are some recommended next steps for people who are ready to go beyond telling a friend? What would you say?

SPEAKER_01 50:40

Yeah, I would say, you know, first of all, that doesn't mean you're weak. Needing some help from a professional just means that you need something outside your own head and outside your friendships, right? You need to be able to say stuff to someone that's you're not gonna see them in the grocery store and they're not gonna have a conversation, or you're not gonna see them at church on Sundays, you know, every week or whatever. Like there is value in that relationship, you know, of having some of that relational distance. And somebody who is trained in this, like this, I the number of continuing education hours I have taken is stunningly high for you know what we do because trauma is nuanced and you really need to understand how it impacts people and how it impacts the body. Different kinds of trauma, you know, impact in slightly different ways. Like there's there's nuances, and so there needs to be good training around that. And you need to vibe with a therapist. That's the other thing that's really important. So, you know, when you're calling around, and you know, this is something that can be really hard if you're a trauma survivor because you're like, I'm not even allowed to ask questions. Like, wait, what do you mean? I'm gonna say I don't think you're a good fit to somebody. Yeah, you know, that could be real freaky, but it is something that's really important. Like, there are people that I am an amazing therapist for, and there are people that I am not the right fit for. And I've been honest with people about that. In fact, I did an intensive with another one of my uh clinicians and told that client, I'm not your fit. Um, you know, we were able to do this work together, but I actually think this other clinician that was partnering with me is the better fit for you because personality-wise, the way that they were communicating together was just better.

SPEAKER_02 52:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:17

That in and it was just a better fit. And it doesn't mean I'm a terrible therapist. It doesn't mean anything. It just means that that person was really meant for someone else. And so I don't have any ego, and a good therapist won't have any ego about, you know, saying I'm not the right fit for you, but let's help help you find someone who is. Um, or I've never dealt with, you know, childhood sexual abuse in a client. And so I'm not sure I'm the most equipped, but I do know this other person that specializes in it and they're phenomenal and they can walk with you. You know, we all have different giftings, even therapists. And so asking the questions, I I do say that, and I know this is unpopular amongst some therapists, that I think a 15-minute phone conversation is really helpful. And I tend to lean toward therapists that do that and don't just make people schedule a whole first session because, like, good lord, with trauma, you're asking someone to tell the worst parts of everything. Yeah. And so if they can't catch a vibe with you and they're gonna sit in front of you for the first time, like in a whole hour session, that's real hard. Yeah, you know, and so I definitely want to know if I'm a good fit. I want to know if if this is the right relationship because again, I want to get them to somebody that is going to be the right person for them.

SPEAKER_00 53:29

Oh, Tabby, I I'm excited for people to listen to this episode, partially because I would love for them to connect with you. So I'm gonna ask you in a in a second to just plug the work that you do and your therapy office and anything else, but also because there are people who are in relationships that are abusive and want to get out. And the road to getting out is not easy. It is very complex and there's a lot of shame around it. And you're hearing from two women on this podcast who have lived through traumatic experiences, both in our childhood, for me, in a two-year dating relationship as a young adult. Uh, Tabby, you would mention your marriage for a decade. There are those of us that are living and having survived experiences that regular common people in the grocery store like we can't talk about. And so we hold this all inside. It shows up, you guys. It shows up in our bodies as symptoms, as patterns, as deep, deep shame. And I just desire for men and women who are recovering from trauma and abuse in any particular season of their life, like that you would be connected to support so that you could see your own goodness again. And so that you can think, you know, for yourself and make decisions based on your wants and needs and rebuild a life one step at a time that you can be really proud of. And I think just being able to look at yourself in the mirror to say, I didn't deserve what I was given, what happened to me. And I want to heal because I am worth reclaiming my goodness, my play, my creativity, my beauty, my talent. You know, I'm worth that. And if you grew up hearing that you weren't worth it, you're gonna war with me on that. You're gonna be like, yeah, but you don't know. And that's why I think being invited into these relationships that are healing are so important because we can be reminded that the yeah, but is connected to that trauma. It's connected to that abuse. So yeah, I think I just I wanted to say that to whoever is listening. And so, Tabby, can you tell people if they want to connect with you, your work, the people that you work with? How could they do that?

SPEAKER_01 56:09

Absolutely. The easiest way to find me is to go to tabithawestbrook.com. That is my personal site. It's got all kinds of information there. If you need clinical support, if you're like, I might need some therapy or coaching or something, I would invite you to go to thejourneyandheprocess.com and check us out there. I have an entire team of amazing people who are well trained in these kinds of things and we would love to walk with you toward healing. I also have something really super fun. If you're like, I don't know what I need, but I need something. I wish I had a therapist or a coach in my pocket. I want to invite folks to explore our transformational topics community. It goes live at the beginning of May in 2026. I don't know when you're listening to this, so it might already be live when you listen to it. And it is a private podcast with assorted resources. So all of my team, I have 13 people, are working with a topic. So each month is going to be a deep dive into a topic. You'll get a private podcast episode and then you'll get other resources. It could be a worksheet, it could be a handout, it could be a meditation, it could be a video, it can be all kinds of different things that take us one level deeper on the topic. And so these are things that can help you. It is 10 bucks a month or $100 for a full year, and it is like having a therapist or coach in your pocket where everything is served up to you. So you don't have to log into another system or anything like that. You just go and it's the podcast just appears in your favorite podcast player once you sign up. And then all the resources come to your inbox and it's gonna help you hopefully grow and heal. And if you're like, I am just tenuously on this journey, I just need somewhere to start. It's a great place for you to start.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

Yeah. So good, Tabby. I know that we scratched the surface of what abuse is and what it looks like today, but I am just really grateful to open the window, to begin to ask questions, to begin to recognize that all relationships that we are in are not, they're not all healthy. Some of them are not. Just there's so much complex conversation around the relationships that we're in, but we shouldn't be harming one another over and over and over and over, right? That pattern is what we're talking about, that abusive pattern. And so getting the healing that we need, getting the distance and the boundaries and the training and the recovery that we need. And also, yeah, repairing, learning how to repair, how to own it, how to say we're sorry. Sometimes relationships cannot be reconciled. Sometimes we have to have distance from relationships and we don't come back into relationship again. So there's just so many things we could talk about. And I will have you back to talk about more. So thank you for being with me today, Tabby, and with us. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and your expertise. We need more people like you in the world.