(41) "College Athletes Are Pros Now And Nobody Will Admit It, Plus Chicago Travel Stories"

The moment college athletes can get paid like pros, the entire “student-athlete” story starts to wobble, and the NCAA looks more confused by the week. We go from a goofy opener about those oddly robotic rewards card greetings to a real check-in on burnout, motivation, and how easy it is to feel worn down when everything keeps shifting under your feet.

From there, we take a hard turn into the chaos of college sports: a player getting approved for a seventh year of eligibility, NIL money that looks a lot like salary, and the NCAA floating the idea of re-examining international players after schools have already brought them in. We talk through the hypocrisy, the legal mess that retroactive rules could trigger, and why fans feel like rosters are basically one-year contracts now. If you miss the days of watching players grow with a program, we’re right there with you and we try to say plainly what changed and why it feels so off.

We also kick around what a real solution could be, including the idea of a salary cap and the uncomfortable reality of billionaire donor money. Along the way we hit some classic sports nostalgia, an old “hundred-dollar handshake” story, and a side debate that turns into an accidental education segment. If you care about college basketball, college football, NIL, the transfer portal, or the future of the NCAA, this conversation is for you. Subscribe, share the show with a friend, and leave a review telling us where you land: pay-for-play with guardrails or the wild west with no rules?

Please leave us your comments, text me, DM me, give me your thoughts.  what works and what doesn't land?  We want to improve.

thanks for listening

Joe

Transcript

The Creepy Rewards Card Script

SPEAKER_01 0:14

Hello, everybody. This is Pilt Down Man and the Card of Giant. Uh, do you want to use your rewards card?

SPEAKER_02 0:26

I I uh this is Joe Flush and my partner Eddie Penn were doing Pilt Down Man episode 41. And the reason they said that, McDonald's now has that. Have you heard of it? They just say I don't have one, a rewards card. I don't know because they could be problematic for when I always they always go, hello, like uh in a way that no one would ever say hello to anyone. It's a little uh little kind of spooky. It is, and then uh like before you could even answer whether you've had a rewards card or not, they they go into the person at the this going, McDonald's gonna help you. And it's just like, what the hell are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:11

This from one extreme to another, voice-wise, too.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

It it is. It's a you wonder where you've uh dropped into, but anyway, it's crazy. Uh

Chicago Nights And Dinosaur Sue

SPEAKER_02 1:21

I wanted to uh talk a little bit about I've been in Chicago and I had It's a traveling town. It's it's uh City of the Big Should, the windy city, uh the city that never sleeps. No, is that that's New York City. That's New York. Yeah. Well, Chicago, I suppose, sleeps, but I never saw it.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

So Yeah, they stay up most of the night too in the morning, I think, pretty much.

SPEAKER_02 1:47

It's uh an interesting place. Uh I had specifically wanted to go up and see the dinosaur uh Sue, and we did, and it was every bit as advertised.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

Yeah, the dinosaur happens to be named after one of your aunts. Is that true? Or is that true? Antrouble, it's true, Ant Trouble.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah, Sue is named after the woman that found her. She was part of the party that and that wasn't your aunt Sue. That wasn't Aunt Sue. She was uh she was back in Camelsburg or something at that point. No, she uh yeah, she was in Camelsburg. But uh no, we uh we had a great trip. We got to meet, I got to meet uh Mary Kay's stepdaughter, Michelle, her and uh Rodney, uh the Zimmermans. Ah the Zimmermans wasn't uh Bob Dylan's Bob Dylan's last name was Zimmerman. I I don't know if they were akin to Bob Dylan at all.

SPEAKER_00 2:43

I wondered that.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Damn, I should have asked. Rodney seems like he's a little bit of a Bob Dylan, I would think. Bob Dylan type? Yeah. No, I'd tell you, I I was so nervous meeting new people as I am, uh, that I didn't know what to do with myself.

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Well, you thought he had something to do with Bob Dylan. That's probably the problem there.

SPEAKER_02 3:04

I wanted to sing the lady lay. Uh but uh no, we had a great time. Rodney introduced it, a better photographer than me, Ed, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

Rodney is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

Well, but when I started seeing his pictures, I thought, well, I should just put my camera away and let him do all the good. Yeah, yeah, really are. And uh so he shamed me a bit in the in that category. But they're very nice people. They introduced me to a card game. I mean, not card game, a dice game called Farkel. And I'm happy to report that out of four Farkel games, I got two wins. That's pretty good. I got yeah, yeah, it was four of us, four games. I took half of them.

SPEAKER_00 3:52

I get that.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

And Mary Kay won one and Michelle won one. That leaves Rodney on the ounce. On the ounce. Well, he's got the photography thing going forward. He is, and that's that probably was like a payback, you know. No, we had a lot of fun. We went

Farkel Bragging And Skyline Stops

SPEAKER_02 4:12

to the Willis Tower, which was the Sears Tower, to the top of that. Yeah. Uh we took a boat.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

And it was the tallest building in the United States at one time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Yeah. I think it I'm not sure how it measures up now. Seems like in the U.S. it might still be. It could be, but I think it was the tallest in the world.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

Dubai has one that's uh uh taller, I think.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

Yeah, but Tokyo, maybe. But now here's the thing you don't know. Dubai's not in the United States.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

Yeah, well, thanks for addressing me. I was looking worldwide.

SPEAKER_02 4:44

I was trying to educate you as well.

SPEAKER_00 4:47

Uh not well on geography, it seems like.

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Uh I I've been through a little down spell. I can't, I can't get myself up. Um, and there are times I think I don't know if I can do this podcast anymore. I just feel like I'm I'm too beat up and everything. But then I remember I've got you under contract. Yeah, my contract runs through 2030. No, no, no. It runs through October, September. September. No, at the end of August, you can get out of your contract.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

Because I've paid up through that type of the uh software.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

After that, you're a free agent.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

I thought it was 2030. I'll have to have an attorney look at that.

SPEAKER_02 5:30

Yeah, well, uh it's interesting to me, and this is switching a little bit, but this these college players now. I saw where the guy coming to University of Kentucky uh got approved for his seventh year of eligibility.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

I think that's the uh Cameroonian kid from Washington or Washington State, I think. And yeah, this is this is his seventh year of playing college. How's that happen? Well, I think he's under contract until 2032, also apparently. So um yeah, yeah, it's this that seems to be the state of college um um athletics these days, college sports. We've got a another player on our team. The NCAA is looking as they always do, and I hate the NCAA. I really do. I hate everything about it. I think if enough schools said we're gonna deal with it, do away with the NCAA, they'd figure it out and go forward. But I can tell you that the NCAA came in this past week or two uh and said, we're gonna re-look, we're gonna re-examine these foreign players to see if they're actually qualified because they might have been paid by pro team. And aren't they being paid already? Yeah. So you know, that's the hypocrisy of it, the irony of it. They're being paid already anyway by signing uh uh uh a letter of commitment.

SPEAKER_02 6:53

Yeah, this whole thing has gotten uh screwed up, and I think uh the name image lightness thing is part of it.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

And I was for that to begin with, but I thought it was gonna be sort of regulated in a way.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yeah, I thought those guys are gonna get paid

Burnout Talk And Contract Jokes

SPEAKER_02 7:10

money that they can uh go out and have a good meal or something like that. Yes. Uh maybe buy a new pair of pants. Right. Or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 7:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:19

I didn't, but but what happens and invariably it happens, uh the uh amount that they got paid, it was like a it was like a salary, like a an extra amount, and everybody wanted to compete, so they pushed everything. Those guys are getting paid before. Oh, yeah, yeah. I remember one time uh I do too, probably kill the Larry Bird. Larry Byrd uh and uh Rick Robey were playing on the on the same team with the uh Boston Celtics, and uh and Rick Roby's a former player for the University of Kentucky.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

A very good player. A very good player, all American, second team. And well, Larry Bird's Larry Bird.

SPEAKER_02 8:02

Yeah, yeah. And and Roby uh went over, he had some Kentucky fans that came to the game. He went over and shook hands, and uh uh Larry Bird said to him, that's amazing. I've never seen that before. He said, What's that? He said, I've never seen you shake hands with anybody from Kentucky with the then uh put money in your hands a hundred dollar handshake.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Yeah, a hundred dollar handshake. Yeah, uh be paltry by the day standards. Oh my god. $100 handshake. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Don't you think the part of the problem is uh I mean it's hard to admit, but there are no uh amateur athletes anymore.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Well, I think that's definitely true.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

And that's why you see people work, you know, play in a year somewhere, they get a one basically a one-year contract.

SPEAKER_00 8:54

And then start looking around again. Exactly. And they're not even having to look around. Other schools are approaching them right off the bat. So yeah, hey, we'd be interested in you. We can pay pay you more money than you made last year. And you can't blame the you really can't blame the athletes, can you? No, no, not really.

SPEAKER_02 9:11

I mean, this is just the setup, it's what the market will bear, and they're taking it. You know, I I guess I I don't mind people getting paid. I think if a player is good enough, even in high school or whatever, and they

Seventh-Year Players And NCAA Whiplash

SPEAKER_02 9:26

want to jump to the pros, I think they shouldn't have to go through the uh, you know, making it look like they're a student for a year. Yeah, uh it's a sham, really. Many of them do not go to class. No. If they if they do, uh there's a little help along the way to help them uh get through there. And you know, if you're if you're a player and you're really good, you're not staying more than two years in college. If you stay more than two years in college, you're not gonna be drafted high. No. Uh they're looking for instant help, or they're drafting like the Celtic did last year. They took that kid from uh a European kid, and he's only like 17 years old when they took him. And he played a little bit this year.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Well, he's a project, he's a long-term project.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah, that's the way you look at it, and it's controlled uh cost.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

But Ed, here's the problem. Just like that kid that wants to play seven years, what are you gonna say to him? You're a pro athlete. You don't want to go to the NBA because you're not gonna go. You're not gonna be drafted ever.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

You're gonna make money here.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Here we're gonna give you two million dollars a year, but we decide whether or not you can get it next year. No, that's out of the cage now. That bird has flown. Yeah. Um, I don't know how they can tell them how many years they got anymore.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Well, they're gonna have to do something. There seems to be no guardrails whatsoever, really. So they're they're gonna have to revisit it somehow or another and come to some some some sort of conclusion.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

I I always thought there should be uh when the at first, you know, when I went to college, like UK or EKU or whoever I was falling, you'd see a player come up as a freshman and they didn't play. They played on a freshman team. And you go, wow, I can't wait the next year when he gets to the other team. They get three years to play, and and you could see uh Dan Isle work his way up and he did. And did that. And and so it was exciting for the fans because you knew who was going to be on your team. There'd be a few new guys, but for the most part, you had the same guys.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

And it sounds a little bit like the old man saying, get off my off my lawn a little bit when you reminisce about those sorts of things. But you most people would have to agree that that that's better. That's better every way around, actually. If you think about it.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Well, that's kind of why I like pro better, because at least if if the Celtics draft somebody, put them on the team, I'm gonna have them there for several years if they're good. Yeah. And and now Kentucky, for example, they can put on an awesome team. And you can't depend that one of those guys is gonna be back the next year.

SPEAKER_00 12:22

Well, definitely, that's true. You know, I I think of the word that just came to mind, and it's come to my mind before. This is not the first time. I used to think of of what the NCAA would do with um with college athletics, with college athletes, was paying a stipend, S-T-I-P-N-D. And that's a far cry. What they're making now is far from the stipend. What you um described a few minutes ago about getting money for meals and stuff like that, and to be able to go out on few dates and to buy a pair of tennis shoes, or tennis shoes are being supplied, but uh clothing and stuff like that. I thought that's where they wanted wanted to try to land. So right away, like you said, the bird has already flown the cage right right off the get-go. Oh, yeah. Right off the get-go.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Well, you know, that that whole thing, and I'm sure you know this, but I I can't think of the guy's name right now from UCLA that was uh that was watching a video game. O'Banion? Charles O'Bannon played for Charles O'Banion. O'Bannin played for UCLA. Okay. He played, he was playing a video game, and it was him on the Oh, I know this. He filed a lawsuit, didn't he? He did. And won, yes. But it took a long time because they fought. But basically saying, uh, and I said basically a lot here. I said basically basically said it basically many times, yeah. Um that's funny that that came up uh some somewhere

NIL Money And The End Of Amateur

SPEAKER_02 13:52

deep in my head. Um but yes, he filed a lawsuit, he won. And then that's what started all this in I.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

Yes, that was the Genesis. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

And they were saying, okay, for a while, the video game companies are gonna find. We won't put anybody on there. We won't put your name on that. We'll just put they tried at first, like they wouldn't have Jordan on there. I think Jordan was the one that would not be on in any form. Yeah, but they'd find a video game player that was better than anybody else on there, and it was obviously Jordan. And and so that did start it. And look what it's turned into now.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

I mean, these kids they didn't try to market it as just a very good NBA player. This this game is brought to you by a very good that uh player that we're not gonna name, but he's really good. And he's about six feet to six inches tall, African-American, and uh I just guess who that might be. And the and the uniform might be red.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

It could be uh the uh they I mean they did. I remember when that happened, but I thought, well, he's got a point there. They are using him to make money. The school can sell jerseys and stuff, uh, and uh, you know, they don't get anything out. That that wasn't right. They they were providing a service for uh for the school. Now that's all gone. The idea of having your team and watching um uh you know, watching Louis Dampier, watching, watching those guys go four years for that school. It was a total pleasure for everybody. Yes, it really was. And you'd get a new kid on the, you know, maybe, maybe he wouldn't develop, maybe you would, maybe you would come to the best part of the you don't even see that anymore. It's like what a okay, these guys have never played together. We're just taking them, and we got a year to whip them into shape. And I guess it's fun for somebody just selling tickets like crazy.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Uh a quick question for you. Let's let's go back around. As the kids say, do a 360. We're not really gonna do a 360. We're gonna do a 180. Okay. We're gonna turn back around. Um so the NCAA wants to regulate now those players that have already signed contracts with the schools, and they want to retroactively say, we can't have that. We're gonna look into you and we're gonna say you can either play or not this year. How many lawsuits do you think would come out of that for saying we've already got players? Some teams, for example, LSU has three or four um international players. Now, these aren't players from the G League. That's not the total, these are players that are actually coming in internationally. Yeah. So it and they're gonna say, those four players that you've got who all seem to be possible starters, we're not gonna allow you to play them this year because we're gonna make this rule retroactive. What do you think that's gonna? That's not gonna fly for anybody.

SPEAKER_02 17:00

It's just not no, and I even thought I thought one of the things might be uh uh have it, and I've always thought this though when a kid signed with the college, it it was a four-year commitment for both sides. Yeah. That the coach can't say after one year, oh and I made a mistake.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

But they do. I know they have been doing it for a long time. I know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah, it's never been a four-year project. And uh year to year. But now it's it's way worse. You know, it's uh it really is the wild, wild west. I here's the way I think we're going with it. A salary cap.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

I hope so.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Uh that would, I mean, that's what the NBA does to keep the everything going. And you know, it keeps keeps some schools from just loading their class up, you know, Duke, just having the choice to pick whoever the hell they want.

SPEAKER_00 17:58

Uh if you got and a lot of these schools have really truly big, big money donors. I'm not talking about millionaires, I'm talking about in some instances of billionaires. Right. So they they're the it's unlimited. The you know, the pot can't be emptied. So it uh I think that's a little bit sort of talking out of school or and maybe not not knowing what I'm talking about, but it seems like St. John's has that a little bit. It sort of seems like unending money to me. Yeah. And there are a few other schools like that. And I'm sorry I pointed out St. John's because I like Rick Petino, but it it looks to me like they've got unlimited.

SPEAKER_02 18:32

Well, let's say let's say Bezos gets interested in one particular school. Yeah. And uh he gets tired of plumping up his his uh wife's uh lips. Let's say her lips have now reached maximum inflation. They've reached maximum in inflation, and not just the lips, but we'll we'll keep with the lips at this point.

Retroactive Eligibility And Lawsuit Fuel

SPEAKER_02 18:58

Uh but if he gets more than he decides he wants to take a year and buy a basketball team for whoever, he can get it. Yeah. And uh there's nothing to stop them. That's why I guess I think a salary cap is all they've got left. And I don't think they'll do it.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

You think Jeff Bezos would really uh miss $50 million? And would not. And if you've got $50 million to spend on a lineup in college basketball, you could get some players. Yeah. You could get a few.

SPEAKER_02 19:32

Yeah, you get some dropping out of the NBA. But I g I guess we're stuck with it, Ed. I don't I don't know. It's you know pretty depressing.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

It would be interesting to see how this this retroactive rule that the NCAA has in mind will whether it'll come to any sort of fruition. And if it does, who uh who all's gonna fight back? Because they all are, they're all gonna fight back on that.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

No. Uh I I just think I I don't think that and what about football?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

What about college football? Yeah, we haven't even talked about college football. There's not enough money to go around for those guys. I mean, no. So they can still pay a star, though.

SPEAKER_02 20:12

Yeah. And and you know, uh well, this is back to basketball again. I know one of the Florida kids uh that played for UK last year. Do you remember what's what is I'm trying, uh yes. But uh but I heard him interviewed and he said, Yeah, I wanted to stay at Florida. We won the championship there. I wanted to stay there, but Aberdeen, you're talking about basketball. Yeah, yeah. And and so he says, Okay, I'm I'm you know, I'm up for hire here. And and Florida says, you know, we get we're getting a lot of people right now. We're gonna spread the money about. So he does the smart thing and leading.

SPEAKER_00 20:47

He does the only thing for him. It's his home. You know, he went back home to play for more money. So can't fault the kids.

SPEAKER_02 20:55

But I don't know. Uh I I think I think it's a big problem, and I think that's the reason why professional sports is better. It really is.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

We we both still watch NBA doubling. I think. We certainly watch NFL.

SPEAKER_02 21:12

Yeah, and I have, you know, I followed, I have followed the Celtics from the time they had only uh won, I think they'd only won one or two championships.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

That's interesting. And they they've got 12, is that right? Or 11. 18. 18. I'm in 18.

SPEAKER_02 21:29

I didn't want to say 12 or 11. I'm in 1911. And and Dubai, by the way, is not in the U.S. I just wanna listen.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

I could listen, but are you sure they've got 18 championships? I I am not. I think that's that we could check on that, but not right now. Yeah. I think they have 18. I think he they have 12.

SPEAKER_02 21:52

Oh no, you're way wrong on that. Could be. Yeah, could be. Yeah. I think the Lakers have 17 and the Celtics have 18. I believe that's the way it works.

Salary Caps And Billionaire Donors

SPEAKER_02 22:02

I'm still stuck in the past, aren't we? And I still and I still don't count the one for the Lakers in the bubble. That was Oh, you don't count that no I don't count that. But you count them say you have 17 counting the one in the bubble.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

But then do you count the Celtics one where Bill Russell was at the end of his career and the second best player on that team was M. Bryant. He was a point guard. And they won a a championship with that team. Yeah but they had they had other people I know they had other decent players but M. Bryant and and and Bill Russell were sort of the nucleus.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

You know you've got a center and a point guard so it's right but Russell got hurt really bad early in that year. Yeah that was kind of the decision that uh that forced him to then retire but he said uh you know they ended up fourth and there was eight teams in the NBA now there was probably more than that by that time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

But uh that was late 60s wasn't it 68 or 60.

SPEAKER_02 23:07

But but they they barely made the playoffs they finished fourth and then they got in there and just kind of did what the Celtics did kind of memory. But were the well the uh two guards KC Jones Sam Jones Sam Jones won game seven for him.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

I mean Oh Sam Jones was on that team too I'd like to go back and look at that whole lineup because you're thinking it's 12 championships I think he missed six that was apparently I've sort of uh sort of missed those championships and I didn't think that I did I must have been asleep.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

Well you know you know when talking about the N I L and all that for college though it was it wasn't just the basketball and football when I went to the EKU at first man I enjoyed going to swimming I went to swimming meets uh it was the Eastern eels and uh it was a big deal whenever UK would come in and and take us on we won like 11 times in a row. Really? Yeah that was a that was a big deal Eastern and that's what they deal for the eel. Oh yeah big deal for the eel and you know you don't get that much at Eastern as far as championships you did you did in football later but uh but I went to wrestling meets I went to all these things and was that when you were in school yeah but not but not afterwards really I I went a few times to to the swim meets even after that just because it was such

Celtics Rings And Sports Nostalgia

SPEAKER_02 24:40

a I love going in the uh comb it was Earl Combs it was after the New York Yankees uh meet no no no this uh now I said Earl Combs was it Earl he was a swimming coach for the uh for EK been cool if it'd been at Earl Combs you know maybe yeah yeah New York Yankees outfitter right it'd be cool if we were him we uh but yes I went to all those things and and he was the coach and he was kind of like an Adolph Rupp character uh coaching them everybody back then was an Adolph Rupp sort of character it was but you go in the natatorium to watch it and it was just sweltering have you ever been in one of those natatoriums to watch switch yeah my wife was the coach you know so that's right so I've been in a couple of those places yeah you've probably been in bigger natatoriums than I've had though yeah and I I forgot the word natatorium and that's an interesting word for me we'll let's but let's play up on that at some point in time maybe okay well we've got we've got time so go ahead and play on parable because I of course you do but what I want you to do Eddie I'm serious I want you to go back and look at the size of buildings and which ones are in the U.S.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

And go back and look to see how many championships the uh Boston yeah this is more like an education episode I'm gonna stick with 12 on that. Now I could be corrected. Okay well I how much money do you have? Well you know I don't really carry any cash with me but I've got a credit card that's not maxed out. Yeah well you'd be losing whatever you bet.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

So uh kind of a short episode here but I think we're all episoded out so uh if we're not going to talk about an editorial then I think we can uh maybe do yeah yeah I was just trying to make this not be our uh smallest episode but apparently it's going to so well if we keep on talking about it being the smallest episode then we can just stall a little bit. Yeah but I also do and this will stretch it out I want to tell you that when we get uh suggestions and stuff um I've got several friends that give me great feedback on the thing and some people that uh see our program as different than what we intend but if you like it then I don't really care as regardless of why you're I heard I heard somebody say talking oh it was Pa Paul McCartney

Feedback, Meaning, And The Subscribe Ask

SPEAKER_02 27:08

talking about when he wrote a song and everybody misinterpreted what he meant but then after a while he was like well that's cool I gave him something and they just kind of built their own story around it. That's an interesting comment from Paul because he's a bit of an uh egotist you think you think you gave that to anybody um but anyway well we appreciate you listening uh if you do hit the subscribe button it's not gonna cost you anything what it's gonna do is uh just remind you there's an episode up that you can or or may not want to listen to so uh and you don't have to but it but it helps us to uh get the word out and if you do like it please tell your friends let's get out of here Edwards