Intergenerational Islam: Faith, Family, and Conversion with Ustadh Ubaydullah Evans

Note: This episode is taken from a live lecture recording, so audio quality may vary. The reflections and stories, however, are too good not to share.

Ustadh Ubaydullah Evans reflects on faith across generations, beginning with his own journey to Islam at just 16. Through personal stories, humor, and reflections on his family’s path to Islam, he explores how faith takes root and grows in unexpected ways. A conversation about legacy, family, and the reminder that Islam will continue to grow with or without us.

About Frames host, Ustadh Ubaydullah Evans:

Ubaydullah Evans is ALIM’s Scholar-in-Residence and the first African-American graduate of Al-Azhar’s Shari’a program. After converting to Islam in high school, he studied locally and abroad, including IIE, Tarim, and Cairo. He also teaches with Ta’leef Collective and IMAN. At ALIM, he’s Core Instructor for the Summer Program, teaching Islamic law, Shama’il, and the Aphorisms of Ibn Ata’illah.

Frames Podcast 🎙️

Join ALIM’s Scholar-in-Residence, Ustadh Ubaydullah Evans, for monthly Frames live discussions featuring respected scholars from across the country. These conversations dive into timely, relevant topics shaping Muslim thought today — offering sharp insights, meaningful reflections, and perspectives you won’t hear anywhere else.

American Learning Institute for Muslims (ALIM)

Established in 1998, ALIM promotes the empowered, religiously grounded development of American Muslim individuals, families, and communities through Islamic Literacy, which is the establishment and critical engagement of the intellectual and spiritual foundations of Islam. It envisions cultivating Muslims  who are intellectually and spiritually grounded, able to engage critically with their faith, and contribute meaningfully to society.

Guided by world-class scholars, Dr. Sherman Jackson, Dr. Ali Sulaiman Ali, Dr. Muneer Fareed, Ustadh Ubaydullah Evans, ALIM offers accessibl...

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

And it is true that Islam has a natural persuasiveness. You know, Muslims traditionally did not produce missionaries, professional missionaries. These were traders, these were artisans, these were craftspeople that interacted and engaged with people, and people accepted Islam. There's a book called Conversion to Islam in the Medieval Period by a professor from Columbia named Richard Bullet, and he talks about how Islamic rule was not the same thing as personal conversion to Islam, the personal religious conviction of Muslim communities, that at first Muslims made up a minority in places like Egypt, in places like Syria, in places like Morocco, in places like Algeria. And it would take hundreds of years before Muslims would have a simple majority in those places. Because they actually weren't forced to be Muslims. In some cases, they were being forced to accept Islamic rule. But that was not the same as telling people you have to be Muslim. When Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says, there is no compulsion in religion. Shaykh Ramalan Sayyid al-Bulti, he had a very interesting insight about this ayah. He said, some people read this ayah and they think that it's in Shah. Insha'ah in the Arabic language is a statement where a person is telling you to do something or not to do something. That's insha'a. If'al aw taf, do this or don't do it. And he said, most people read La ikra'ah fiddin. There is no compulsion in religion like God is telling them, La tuqrihun naz. Don't compel people to be Muslim. He said, in actuality, this ayah is khabar. Khabr in Arab is a statement that is true or false.

unknown 2:19

La iqural fiddle, Allah is telling you there is no compulsion in religion.

SPEAKER_01 2:25

You cannot force someone to believe something. You can force them to pretend as though they believe something. You can force them to act like they believe something, but you can never force them to believe something. People only believe out of conviction. This religion always compels conviction. So I appreciate what you shared about my conversion to Islam. However, and my wife has the whole law. May Allah preserve her. And if you see her, be sure to tell her I said that after saying her name. I need points, jalabs, good reports, everything I can get. She reminds me that conversion to Islam out of personal conviction is not the same thing as the intergenerational sustainability of Islam. And sometimes we as converts, we don't see that those two are not the same. That you can convert to Islam just out of personal conviction. But your children, their religion will be sustained by institutions, sustained by familial practices, sustained by strong communities. They don't have that same experience of personal conversion that can buoy your religious faith. You have, you know, I remember looking at my children one day, and I said to them incredulously, you don't want to go to the masjid? They looked at me like, no. We don't. I was like, my God, babe, what's wrong with these kids? She's like, obey, they were born Muslim. Their experience of Islam is not like yours. For you, you have religious faith, and faith is an expression of personal choice. Not only did you choose your Islam, you chose everything about the exponent of Islam that you adhere to. Your medhab, your teachers, the place you study. Much of their Islam is just conveyed to them. Right?

unknown 4:54

We have to be intentional about making them love it. Right?

SPEAKER_01 5:00

So sometimes I think, yes, converts have a very important story to tell, talking about how people go from being non-Muslims to being Muslims. You know, sometimes I think about that for myself. That I was actually born in the month of Ramallah. How do you left? I was. He said, huh? That is Ramadan. I was born in the month of Ramallah. Way back in the 1900s. Maybe in the 1300s. Way back in the 1900s. But for years of my life, I wasn't aware of the blessing of this month. But sometimes I think to myself, subhanAllah, there was a time when if one had said to me Ramadan, I would have had no clue what they were referring to. And it was actually the month of Ramadan that led to my embracing Islam. I had a classmate named Siraj, may Allah preserve him. Nigerian. He used to come to school during the month of Ramadan and he would come to lunch but he wouldn't eat. And we thought this was the strangest habit. Oh Siraj, this is high school. Why can't you eat lunch? And Siraj he was not Sheikh al-Islam. He would say, I don't know. My father told me not to eat. That was his answer. I was like, but why? Why can't you eat? I don't know. My dad just told me I can eat when I get home. So, and he would come to the, he would sit at the lunchroom table and he wouldn't eat anything. So when I was in Saturday detention one day, you wanna know what's crazy, man? Talk about coming a long way.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Somehow.

SPEAKER_01 6:56

I was in Saturday detention. Saturday, you had to go to school on Saturday. This is what they did for the Budmash. You go to school on Saturday. So one of the school administrators came into a restroom and I was on my knees in the restroom shooting dice. And he said, What are you kids doing? And I looked up and said, Would you believe that we're down here praying? I said, You gotta give me those dice. And he gave me Saturday detention for that. I was in the bathroom shooting craps. Teacher walked in, gave me Saturday. A junior in high school got a Saturday detention. And I was sitting in the classroom for Saturday, and my proctor, his name was Mr. DeVries, Dirk DeVries. And every time he walked by me, I would let out this huge sigh to show him how bored I was. Like if I'm bored, it's hurting them. So when he walked by, I would go, I just tried to show my displeasure with the fact that I had to be at school on Saturday. And listen, you really said to me, you know, Will, my giving name is Will. Instead of blowing hot air, why don't you do something beneficial with your time? And we had to stay in school from 8 until 1. And it was like nine. And I blew hot air for an hour. And I said, like what, Mr. DeReves? He said, why don't you read something? I said, read what? Qatallahu Abbasha. We happened to be in a classroom where advanced placement world sieve was taught. He grabbed a textbook for the class, put it on my desk, and said, read this. I sat there staring at the book for about two hours. And then something said, why not open it? I opened the book to the Ottoman Empire. And something about it, I'm deeply indebted to the Atarakiani. I'm deeply indebted to the Turks. I opened the book to the Ottoman Empire. And I just, I was just perusing the book. I wasn't reading it. Until this small subsection that said Ottoman religious life. And it said the Ottomans were Muslims. And they believed, and it listed the five pillars of Islam. And the first pillar said, there is nothing worthy of worship except God. I don't know who translated that. But that translation just, I was just like, I was just deeply inspired, like, there's no God but God. Like, what does that mean? That's the thing that really it was away. It was like, what does that mean? So I'm reading and I read about passion. And I thought, is that what Siraj does? I said, is that maybe he's Muslim. Maybe he's Muslim. So I went to Siraj Monday. And I said, Yo, Siraj, are you a Muslim? And back then, I was the man with the jokes. I was the guy in school talking about everybody. I mean, I would wait for some people by the door of the school. And as soon as they came in, it just, oh that was terrible. So he answered reluctantly, like, yeah. And I said, bro, I read in uh World Sith about Muslims and Bottomists, and it's just interesting to me, man. Can you tell me some more about that? He said, no, because I don't know he did it. He said, but if you come to my house after school, my dad, he knows everything about Islam. SubhanAllah. Brother Hakim Adabayu. So I went to his house after school. His father talked to me for 15 minutes. And everything he said, I was just, I was leaping out of my seat. I believed that. I believed that. I believed that. And he said, Would you like to become Muslim? I said, Yes, sir, I would. And I took my Shahada right there and said, I'll just catch you. So how? Somehow. The odd thing was, I think he was, you know, he was like in a rush. So he just gave me a miswag. And he gave me a colouring sour, like a topi. He gave me a miswag and he gave me a tope. He likes it, these aren't really cool. And then he hugged me. And then he walked out. Now, the topi I knew was some kind of religious headdress. The miswag, I didn't know what it was for. But I would carry it with me. Different places, and I would tell people, you know, I'm a Muslim. They would say, no, you're not. I would pull out the miswag. It is a funny regard. It is some kind of sacred brother. I don't know. It's so much a muscle. I had no idea what it was. I went to the people to take me to scoff with eating.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

I was looking at the post. That was so underwhelming.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

I'm like, it's just a toy person. You know, and then with the with the topi, you know, man, when I was in high school, I was very, I was very well dressed. I used to dress really well. And I knew that if I came to school in uh a Topi, everybody would be like, yo, what is he like? What is he doing? Right? So I said to my friend that tomorrow, I'm gonna come to school, and I'm gonna have all my religious head dress, I'm gonna have my religious cat. He said, no, you won't do it. I said, no, no, I'm gonna do it. So I came out, I walked in school, I had on white tobic, and somebody said, Well, I didn't know you were Jewish. He said, Oh, okay, okay, okay, okay. All day my teachers would say to me, Oh, please remove that from your head. No, no, no, it's religious. No, no, no, it's religious. They'd be like, okay, no, respect, respect. And just the feeling of adults respecting the decision that I had made, that was so empowering. And I would tell my teachers, no, no, it's religious. They said, Oh, they were impressed with that.

unknown 15:03

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 15:05

Then shortly after that, my younger sister, who was 13 at the time, she accepted something. The easiest shahada, she said, Hey, Will, everybody said that you're Muslim. I said, Yeah, that's true. She said, Well, I gotta be Muslim too. Then three of my closest friends became Muslim. And I'm talking about just to have, like, we had like a small Jemai, and we used to meet in my mother's basement, and I used to just teach them whatever that I had read. And at some point I said, you know, I'm gonna be your teacher, I probably should have learned something. I don't know what you think about what I'm teaching you. And this is what started my interest in Islamic stuff. And then um, my best friend's younger brother became Muslim, married my sister. So I don't know how it didn't work out. You know, I got a beautiful niece. And then two years ago, then my grandfather became Muslim. Then my grandmother became Muslim. Then two years ago, my mother became Muslim. And so, you know, um it is true. Islam is going to spread with us or without us.

unknown 16:28

People often ask me about my mother, man.

SPEAKER_01 16:31

At that point, you had been practicing Islam for 25 years, and then your mother accepts Islam. What did you do? I said, bro, I didn't do anything. It was my son. My son, Najashi, would just say to my mother, Grandma, you should be Muslim like us. Christmas, that's up his faith. Don't say that. Well, I Malahi, I had such deep regard for my mother that I would never want her to think I was disapproving of her in any way. My mother raised me without my father. My father wasn't a mother of my life, oh my god. And I would never want my mother to think that I disapproved of her. So I would talk about Islam only if the opportunity presented itself organically.

unknown 17:18

But I never pressed her like you should do this.

SPEAKER_01 17:21

Never. Never. And she always supported me. See, my mother always supported my conversion to Islam. You know, uh, I remember like the first day that I became Muslim, the only thing I knew was that Muslims prayed with Sujood. I didn't know about all of the postures of the Sulah. I just thought they made dua in sujood. So before I went to bed at night, I just got down in sujood and just started making du'a. And my mother opened my room door and said, Boy, what are you doing? I looked up and said, Mom, I'm praying. She said, Oh, I'm sorry, babe. You know, when I first started, you know, wearing clothes that would mark my conversion to Islam, I had this Shawar Kemis. And I had it on. And my mother said, Come and lunch with me. And we ran into one of her friends. And her friend said, Will, you're a butcher? She said, Girl, my son ain't no butcher. He's a Muslim. I was like, oh, I'm like, she's like offending me. She said, Boy, I didn't know you were a butcher. Girl, my son ain't no butcher. He said, He's a muscle. You know, so she always was like that. She would fast with me, uh, make a support, make an iftar, but I never like pressed it. And one day my son, he said, Grandma, you should be muscle like us. And she said, Najashi, you don't know what I am. I looked up.

unknown 18:51

What?

SPEAKER_01 18:52

She said, Yeah, look at Well, I can see your mother kind of muscles. Oh, I almost burst out into tears. There has never been a sacred time. There has never been a sacred place. There has never been a person that I thought was blessed, except that I prayed for my mother who asked them to pray for my mother. All the time. Talk about a dua you've been making every day for 25 years. And then Ojibwe die with a daddy that died. With no intervention from you, now my mother's ready to accept the song. Now, some of you have heard this story online, but for those who haven't, I'll close with this. My mother was living with her boyfriend, a gentleman named Daddy. And they had been together at this point, maybe seven years. So when she said she wanted to come to the messenger and accept the sign, I told everybody. Her boyfriend daddy is going to be with her. He's probably going to be happy for her. They're probably going to embrace. If anybody makes her feel uncomfortable, I'll put me on you. I'll make Toba later. But if you make my mother feel uncomfortable at all about her life, about her relationship, I'm putting knees on you. And I meant it. If somebody said, stop for Allah, or you know you can't be with him now that you're Muslim, it was just gonna be a fight right there all of a sudden. I said, don't say anything, just smile and say, congratulations, sister. Everything else we'll deal with. Everybody understood the mission. Wait, we got it. We understand. No one is going to say anything. So sure enough, my mother came to the message. She accepted his son. We were hugging and crying, and he was crying.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

You know, Will, I'm so happy for your mother, man. She's been wanting to do this for a while, and she did it.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

And I said to him, have facetiously. Daddy, you're so happy. It almost seems like you want to become Muslim. He said, You know, I've been thinking about it. I said, Would you like to take Shahada? And he said, Yes, I would. Daddy accepted Islam right there. And then I said to them, Since you're both Muslim, you should get married. He looked at her, babe, you want to do it? I did the dika right there. To try to affect her. My mother took shahada. Her boyfriend took shahada. I did their dika all in one sin. All in one sin. So my mother became Muslim, never spent a moment in sin. So my point is that even now my mother is a chemist, my mother's a scientist by trade, but now she is. A teacher at a Muslim preschool. And sometimes she calls me in, and I'm looking at my mother with these Muslim children, and she's a hajible woman now. I feel like I'm about to fade. The kids are like, are you okay? I said, bro, you just thought I can't, I can't believe this. I can't, I cannot believe what I'm looking at.

unknown 22:22

Right?

SPEAKER_01 22:23

She calls me and says, I'm aikum son. How are you? I said, how are you, mother? How do you leave that?

unknown 22:28

I'm like, I can't believe this. I can't believe this. I can't believe this is happening. I can't believe this is happening.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

So my point to you is that trying to take this personal conviction and harness it into an intergenerational, sustainable commitment to Islam is what I think our struggle is. And that's why I think institutions like Crescent, schools, massajit, other Muslim institutions are really, really important. Because if you don't have those, just like people can come into Islam, they can also grow disaffected with Islam. You have to have institutions that once they come into Islam, we give them a path toward the sustainable growth of their Islam. So conversion is important, but it's also about what happens after conversion. And all of us play a role in that.