Married and Connected

Ep 141: Stop Playing Husband: Thomas Eberts on Outgrowing the Boy and Leading Your Marriage

• Kameran Al-Areqi • Season 10 • Episode 13

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In this episode, Kameran Alareqi sits down with Thomas Eberts, a men’s advisor and initiator, to discuss his dramatic journey from the brink of divorce to building a thriving, connected family.

Thomas breaks down why so many men are "boys trapped in men's bodies," operating on broken "operating systems" inherited from past generations. We dive deep into the four masculine archetypes, the danger of the "boardroom brain" in marriage, and how to become the Integrated Father your family truly needs.

Key Takeaways: What You’ll Learn

  • The "Boy" vs. The "Man": Why being a provider isn't enough and how emotional absence creates a "unsafe" environment for your wife.
  • The Gardener Mindset: Shifting from blaming your spouse to taking 100% responsibility for the "weeds" in your marriage.
  • The 4 Masculine Archetypes: A breakdown of the King, Warrior, Magician, and Lover and how to integrate them to lead your household.
  • The 7 Stages of Emotional Detachment: Recognizing the warning signs before your wife says, "I'm done."
  • Healing the "Broken Operating System": How to rewire your nervous system and move past generational trauma.
  • The Integrated Father: Why your daughter’s future husband and your son’s future self depend on the man you choose to become today.

The 7 Stages of a Woman's Silent Withdrawal

Thomas shares his research on the "Death Spiral" of a marriage:

  1. "Everything is good, except this one thing."
  2. Trying everything to communicate feelings.
  3. The Manager: Feeling tired of managing the man's life.
  4. Resentment: Seeing the imbalance of labor and emotional effort.
  5. Emotional Detachment: The "Silent Phase"—the most dangerous stage where she stops fighting.
  6. The Decision: Making the internal choice to leave and feeling peace.
  7. The Announcement: "I'm done."

Resources Mentioned

Final Thought

If your wife has told you, "I don't feel safe with you," or "I have to do it all," you aren't dealing with a "nagging wife"—you are dealing with a leadership void. Real growth isn't just reading books; it's seeing the results in your marriage. If the marriage isn't changing, you aren't changing.

Stop being a passenger in your own life. It’s time to initiate.

Keywords: Marriage Advice for Men, Masculine Leadership, How to Save a Marriage, Integrated Fatherhood, Thomas Eberts, Married and Connected Podcast, Emotional Intelligence for Men, Masculine Archetypes, Generational Trauma, Divorce Prevention.

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SPEAKER_01

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SPEAKER_00

Karen, let's rock and roll. Uh, thank you for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. So jump in, just talk a little bit about your story. What is, you know, divorce papers all the way to saving your marriage in such a short time?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So I think I want to start at the beginning. I do believe that I was a boy trapped in a man's body, in a father's body, in a husband's body, and I had no idea that I was a boy trapped in that. Meaning I was not at the point where I was actually serving my marriage, my in parenthood, my children, but I was basically operating on a broken operating system that I have absorbed from my parents who have taught me everything there is, quote unquote, or there was for me, about being a parent and being a spouse, being in a marriage. And I'm not saying that my parents did a bad job. They did an as good job as they could with everything they had available, because I believe we all do try. But at the end of the day, there was a massive gap in between what my father taught me about being a husband and being a father, to what it actually needs, what what what I am required to be. And we can talk about a couple of archetypes here. This is like going going back from my story. This is the foundation for why I fucked up in my marriage and and as a father, and why within two years I have destroyed my marriage and and my relationship to my wife. Uh how I started rebuilding it after a very painful but strong realization.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so am I hearing you right that basically you were married two years, and that's when your your wife, I'm assuming, wanted the divorce?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so my wife came up to me September 2024. She sat me down, she said, like Thomas, um, I'll be honest with you, I made a decision. There's no there's no way I see forward for us in the future together. We need to divorce and we need to call parent. This is not good for for any one of us, not for our child, not for me, not for you.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so and if this is too personal, you can totally tell me, but was it just like toxic fighting? Was she just overwhelmed and over functioning? Like what what was the dynamic there that was leading to her wanting the divorce?

SPEAKER_00

I think I was completely absent uh emotionally, and that would that led into absolute breakdowns, to panic attacks, to me just the the intensity of my life, um, really from my mom having cancer to me being bullied, almost dying, and and so many other things have led to me emotionally shutting down and not trusting. And hence the I didn't trust me with my emotions. I wasn't able to hold mine, so I wasn't able to hold hers. So every time she would freak out, I would freak out and I would add chaos to the chaos instead of being the rock she needed me to be. And hence things would blow up out of proportion and we would like just spiral into dynamics further and further and further. So in the beginning, it was like, oh yeah, we're able to bounce back from this fight, it's cool. But then over two years, like it, it it piled up to a massive mountain of shit that we went through together, and that weighed so, so strongly on our shoulders that we were kind of like paralyzed, and I had no idea how to get out of it either. I thought I was doing the work, I was reading books, I was reading, uh listening to podcasts and like working on myself and doing all of these things, and I thought we are getting somewhere, but we didn't. In September 2024, when my wife told me it became pretty clear that we're not going anywhere. Um, and that something had to change. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, so in my own experience as a coach, I think what happens is when people come to this trajectory, like they they basically hit this fork in the road. And so they either go one of two ways. Either it's, well, you're the problem, you're the toxic person, you're the cause of all of my problems. Like it's just blame, blame, blame. Or it's like what you did, and it was like, uh, I am responsible for this. I need to fix this problem. This is on me. What was that shift for you in your brain that was like, I'm the problem here, I'm the one that needs to fix this, and here's how I'm gonna do it. What happened there?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, a couple of things. So, as I said, I thought I was doing the work, and I thought I did everything I humanly could to fix this. And then I then my wife came to me and said, I know you don't. I want a divorce, and I was like, Okay, if it's not working, so I sat down and I realized, okay, I am the only one that led us into this situation because I do believe strongly into masculine and feminine dynamics and that the masculine is leading and the feminine is following.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

If the feminine is the garden, I am the gardener, and my thoughts, my words, my actions do sow seeds. If I don't want weeds, I need to seed flowers. If I want to seed flowers, I have to change, I have to lead differently. So in that moment, like that moment of like where I took full responsibility, that was like 60 to 90 days. That that was a process. I was not like, oh yeah, okay, you want a divorce? I take full responsibility, I will change. No, it was me sitting down and going through every conversation that I could remember of like what was her criticism, what were her concerns, what were the things that that that she sees in me that she doesn't feel safe with, comfortable with, where she doesn't feel seen, where she doesn't feel hurt. And I went through for like 30 days every morning, listing out all of the things I can remember. And then step by step, I saw how I was contributing to creating that problem in the first place, and then it doomed on me of like, yo, dude, you have been leading your marriage into this place, so you'll be the only one able to lead it out of there and into the direction that you want to see. So now I have to own all of it. I have to own everything in order for me to be able to lead this. Because I, if I don't own every decision, every thought, every word, every action, like God, I'm a slave. Like, I'm not gonna get where I want to go. So I needed to take that full responsibility and put everything on my shoulders because she wasn't able to carry it. She had already had to carry all of her pain, her frustration, her hurt. Like all of the times I've let her down, the the times that that she hurt hurt most now wasn't there. Like all of that she already had to carry. Now I had to change. So that that shift happened gradually over like 30 to 60 days, where where I really sat down and looked at the status quo of like, yo, what the fuck is not wrong with me or broken? But where am I not embodying the archetypes that I need to embody? And where am I not leading the way that I need to lead in order for my wife to feel safe around me and for me to create an environment in which she can find her happiness more often, where she can find her fulfillment more often, where she can feel more peaceful. That was basically the the the point of realization.

SPEAKER_01

That makes sense, yeah. For men that you work with, because again, there's that fork in the road where I think, again, where where men are willing to step up and lead and take take accountability, or they run away and they're the ones that file for divorce. They're the ones that blame, they're the what do you say to those men?

SPEAKER_02

Do you love your wife?

SPEAKER_01

And if they say I love her, but I'm not attracted to her anymore. Because I hear that a lot.

SPEAKER_00

Uh-huh. Then then I say that's your problem, not hers.

SPEAKER_01

Ooh, really? Dig into that.

SPEAKER_00

So at the end of the day, if you don't feel attracted to your wife, it's because your wife is not attracted to you. It's because there's no polarity in your relationship. It's because every feel everything feels monotonous. Everything feels like roommate behavior, everything is just logistics. There's no fun, there's no aliveness, there's no embodiment of your emotions, there's no dancing in the living room, there's no wild sex on the couch, there is no singing together, there is no going out, there is no experiences where you feel alive, where you're like, oh my god, this is life, this is life force. Yeah. And that's your problem because you lead this, you build the environment as a man, not the woman. The woman is the one who's invited into the kingdom. The kingdom is built for her, and you built the kingdom. That's why I say, hey, if you don't feel attracted to your wife and you once did, that's your fucking problem. You're gonna solve that, and I'm gonna help you. That's what I say when I hear that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I love that. I understand now what you said what you were saying at the beginning, where you were like, I'm not a coach because I kick men's asses and I get them to where they need to go.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, I love it. Um I I initiate boys into manhood, men into husbandhood, and husbands into fatherhood. Because with each of these shifts, responsibilities shift, perspectives shift, feelings shift, thoughts shift, words need to shift, our behavior needs to shift. Because what is required from us as a boy is no responsibility we play and fuck around. But as a man, we're stepping up into responsibility and contributing to our community. If we step into husbandhood, we're stepping into the next evolution of service to our wife and to create a safe container for her that is God-centered, that is family-centered. When we then step into parenthood, into fatherhood, this is where we not only serve our wives, but our children as well. And so the responsibility grows over time. Hence, our identity needs to grow, and hence we have to have initiations where wisdom is passed down, where your past identity has to die through physical pain, emotional pain, and the wisdom that you need to acquire in order to be set forth on that new path. Yeah, so I'm not a fucking coach, I'm an advisor. I give advice. I would see myself as the ego that is flying above the mountains and can see it all. When my clients talk to me, I am I'm the ego flying that is able to see the situation from above and be able to tell them, okay, here is a mountain passage, here's a cave, here's a hole you shouldn't step into, here's a wild river, and basically guide them through that. And then the man's initiation programs and pathways, that's where the identities crack and reform. And then within four days, they they return a different man.

SPEAKER_01

Is that an in-person thing?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

unknown

Yes.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, it's online plus in-person. So the online program is 12 weeks initiation through four phases. Um, the allegory and and the metaphor uses we we turn the raw iron into a blade that is there to serve family and and children and your purpose. It's basically the online program, and then it's solidified with one full immersion for like five days with me in person. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's awesome. So, one of the things that you were talking about is, I mean, we've been talking a lot about leading. How do you distinguish between masculine leadership and toxic control?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. So toxic control comes from boyish behavior. Basically, you are a tyrant. You're a tyrant because you're scared of the feminine. You're scared of the feminine in her full embodiment. Not because the feminine in her full embodiment is a threat, but because you are a boy and a boy looking to a fully embodied woman sees his mother. So if you come into your fully embodied men and you see a fully embodied woman, you see your queen next to the king. You change from tyrant that tries to control, assert power, be the dominant force, the in the manosphere, like with all of these Andrew Tates, oh my god, fucking stupid. Like who shit in your brain that you teach our children how to navigate relationships like that? Sorry, but yes, you have a really great raw energy that has a lot of force, but the way you direct it is just not like a king would do. A king navigates his energy in the way a sovereign king, a chief of his tribe, how they navigate their energy, is for the benefit of all, for the benefit of their people, for the benefit of the kingdom. They have a vision that they see in their mind's eye of what they want to build for the benefit of the world. And this is where you lead from. And this is not oppression, this is not dominance, this is not a power struggle, this is leading from that. And if you lead from that angle, you can say, no, baby, this is not a good idea to do. And then she's gonna be like, What? Like, I want to be free, I want to do whatever I want. And so, yes, you can. And let let me help you understand why I think it's not a good idea to do this. This is what we're working towards in our family, this is what we're establishing, these are the things that we are looking to build. And if you do this, it's not gonna be in harmony with that, and and I'm not down with that. Having a backbone is being a leader and helping your wife feel safe with your leadership. And for that to happen, you need to build the track record of trust, which you have likely broken in your marriage over so many years and sometimes decades, that you have to re-establish that track record of trust so she can actually submit to your leadership lovingly, not through oppression, but that she sees that you are the sovereign king, the chief that has the best in mind for her and the family. And that's how you restore real leadership.

SPEAKER_01

I truly think that men need to like rewind and go back and listen to that part that you just said again. Because as a woman, I think the hardest part of being in a marriage is when our husband doesn't so men are men are like big picture. They see the macro where women see the micro. We see the details, right? That the men see a home. Is it structurally sound? Is it safe? Is it all these things? Women see, here's where I can put the plants, here's where I can put a lamp, here's how I can set the bed up and be it all feng shui and all the things. And in a marriage, if we aren't communicated with or aren't led, we don't know what the big picture is. We don't see it. So we basically develop a big picture of like, okay, well, here's what I think. And if that's not on par with what our husband thinks, it's really difficult to submit and to be led. I heard once um a woman say that being led, like my husband should be able to blindfold me, take my hand, and lead me anywhere. And when I take that blindfold off, I'm happy with where I'm at. And I think if we aren't communicated with, and it's just like because I said so, or this is how it is, or we emulate how our how our parents parented us, we we don't know what the big picture is. And that's really difficult.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's a lot it's it's a broken operating system, as you said, like how our parents did it. It's a broken operating system of relationships. So if if you have a phone and your phone gets slow, it doesn't work anymore, it shuts down, it just crashes. What do you do? Yes, you upgrade the operating system because likely there are bug fixes, right? So the same thing you gotta do with your marriage and parenthood. If stuff doesn't work, there's an operating system underneath it that runs through your nervous system. You need to you need to upgrade that, you need to rewire and retrain your nervous system, which is also a big part of everything that I do. Yeah, it's it's basically, yeah, and and as I said, like the for for the woman to have that problem or the wife to have that problem in in her marriage, that's not her fault. It's her man's fault. Because the if the woman doesn't know the big picture and isn't that well, the woman will do that as well. She will just put it on her shoulders and she will just plan everything, she will plan the days, she will plan the groceries, she will, she will wash all of the dishes and understand how to do the finances and like get everything situated. And the man is actually just the boy, is just the son of the wife that is taken care of and is just bringing home the money. Fuck that. If you're a high-level executive making three, four, five hundred thousand dollars a year, that's not enough. Yes, that's one part of your responsibility of being a husband and a father. But if you come home, there's a ton of other responsibilities. Yeah. For example, taking the fucking load off your wife's back so she can't find more happiness because that's what you built for. You're stronger in your mind. And you want to make sure that you do everything you can in order for your wife to find more happiness in her days and like take off a load. Yes, wash the dishes, yes, fill the dishwasher, yes, do the laundry if she needs help, yes, clean the home. Yes, fucking be there. Like, do whatever you can in order to create an be present with your children, take them somewhere, get your children situated with friends and come back and then spend time with your wife. Go out, create an experience for her, conquer her again. It's like you can't just be on a passenger seat, dude. Just because you bring half a million dollars home, nobody cares. Your wife doesn't.

SPEAKER_01

I'm glad you brought this up because this is one of the things where men get twisted. What I hear a lot is, but I'm not appreciated. Why can't you appreciate me that I'm bringing home three, four hundred, five hundred thousand dollars a year? And then going back to the whole phone example, it's like well, this phone doesn't work, so I'm going to upgrade, but I'm not gonna upgrade the system. I'm just gonna get a new phone. I had a 13, now I'm going to an iPhone 16. You see what I'm saying? And so uh it's just the system is broken. Speak into that a little bit.

SPEAKER_00

Go ahead, get an iPhone 16 with the same operating system, and it's gonna, you're gonna have the same problems. You need to still upgrade the operating system, it's not gonna upgrade itself. Hey, that's my first answer. If you get a new wife, bless you. The problems are just gonna be even more intense because God is gonna be like, oh, this fucking dude is still not seeing what he needs to do. Well, let's make let's turn up the intensity to 10, to 11, to 12. Let's see what's up. Let's see how much I need to do in order for him to break into parts for him to understand what needs to be done. And then on the other side, um, well, I'm not appreciated for what I bring home. Fucking get your head out of your ass. What's the last time you appreciated your wife? When's the last time you wrote her a love note? When's the last time you wrote her a letter about how much you appreciate her? When's the last time you told her how what an amazing mother she is and how much she's taking care of the children with that mental and emotional load every day, regulating her nervous system while she has two, three children? Crying all day long for shit. When's the last time you saw her fall off the laundry she's putting away or folding? When's the last time you've appreciated her for carrying your babies nine months into her in her womb and then giving birth in a fucking painful process and then having to go through postpartum where her whole entire body is changing and she has pains? Where her body is changing so much that she doesn't know if she's ever gonna look like she did look like before pregnancy ever again. When's the last time you appreciated her for that? When's the last time you appreciated her for her beauty, for the for the radiant face, for her lips, for her eyes? When's the last time you appreciated for how she has helped you grow into who you are? That would be my question. Because if you want to see flowers in your garden, you gotta fucking sew them. So if you want more appreciation in your marriage, appreciate her. And you'll find that she will appreciate you more over time. Not tomorrow, not next week, not next month. Took me nine months. Took me nine months from where from divorce ultimatum to where she was starting to appreciate me, to surrender more to me, to seek me out, to fall into my arms. Not every day. She didn't do that every day, but it started happening slowly. The flowers started growing, but I needed to show up consistently without ever keeping track or telemarks for nine months.

SPEAKER_01

I think it's really easy to fall into that. Like after you've been it month after month after month, it's like okay, well, I'm not seeing any change. She's not coming back to me, nothing's changing. And that that's not the goal. The goal is consistency. The goal is you're still doing this, you're doing this to show her. If she's still there, she still cares.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I I I think that's the part that a lot of men miss.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, 100%. 100%. Because, like, like a lot of these uh high achieving men bring their boardroom brains into the marriage and then they look at return on investment. Okay, it takes me about five minutes to write a love note, it takes me about 15 minutes every day to do this, 20 minutes to do that. That's 45 minutes. I could spend these 45 minutes on preparing the boardroom meeting, and I'll probably have a better outcome in business. So I'm just not doing it because like I did it for two months, I had no return on investment. Like, come on, your marriage doesn't work like the boardroom. Your marriage is the exact opposite of that. And that's why you need to lead and navigate at home completely different how you do business. Now, one thing to mention though, the business is good because the business teaches you that you have to stick with something for some time, even if you do not see success. So, my question for these men is like, hey, have you ever worked on a product for nine months without seeing success? And you still kept doing it because you believed in it? Right. The same thing you gotta do with your marriage, dude. Can't just like you can't be a split personality. You have to integrate it. Like, integrate that into one and don't live like one life like this and the other life like that. Just doesn't work like that.

SPEAKER_01

That makes sense. You talk a lot about giving men a map. What are the three cardinal directions on that map that men usually miss?

SPEAKER_00

I'd actually say four directions um that that I'd like to speak about. And then there's a really good book uh written by Robert Moore about the king, magician, lover, and warrior. These are archetypes. So I would say these are the general directions that you need to strive into. You need to integrate yourself into the king, into the magician, into the lover, and the warrior. So these are fun fundamentally different energies, and each of these archetypes and energies do carry two shadow parts to them, which are basically expressing them in like a bipolar way. You you drop from one shadow into the other shadow, and you go back and forth and back and forth in the struggle to find the archetype fullest expression, which is the king, the magician, the lover, and the warrior. So this is basically the the direction that I do lead men into. Um, so this is this is the the big concept. If you want to have like a couple sentences for each, the king is the is the sovereign king, the chief of his family that leads, guides, protects, and serves his family every day to his best ability. Puts his family into the center, puts God into the center to lead his family. Okay. The magician is the one that is able to read in between the lines. Now, I don't call him the magician in in my framework, how I operate. So for me, it's a little bit more mystic here, where the magician is the one that is in touch with God, that is in touch with the supreme, the universe, however you want to call it, with that life-giving force, and finds his direction and pleasures and understanding about the world from there. And then you have the lover. The lover is solely responsible for the warmth at home. The woman nourishes that warmth, but the the lover needs to establish the openness and the safety for that to come through. A woman will never be warm to you if you are cold as fuck. You're the one that needs to be warm and establish the warmth, and then the woman will melt in your arms and doesn't want to do anything but be there, right? Lover. And then the warrior is the one with the backbone. The warrior is the one that stands up for what's right and for what's wrong. And the warrior is the one that takes on the suffering for the family. The one that goes to war in order to protect his family. Best movie for that, for king and warrior energy is 300. Leonidas is the is is the perfect king archetype, and he's the perfect warrior archetype. He doesn't have the magician, the lover, dialed in that well, uh, but he does the he does the king and the warrior energy really well. So if you need a dose, uh dose of real king energy and real warrior energy, 300 is a great movie. One of my favorites. So yeah, the warrior is is the one that goes to battle for his family. And goes to battle for the king, for the vision that the king is establishing.

SPEAKER_01

I like those directions. And for the men out there that are like, well, my wife's told me before that I'm not emotionally attuned or I'm not emotionally available. What does that even look like? How do they even step into this emotional map and learn how to become these men if they were kind of like where you were, where they're just completely emotionally closed off because that's how they grew up or that's how their dad was or what have you?

SPEAKER_00

So there's a principle I teach, which is called the sacred mirror. Your wife is your sacred mirror. Everything that she mirrors back to you is basically a reflection of where you have to look at, no matter how painful, no matter how ugly. So, whenever you get triggered, for example, in a conversation, whenever you get defensive, whenever you start getting emotionally reactive, whenever you lose your grounds, that's when you just gotta freeze in a moment and not do anything what you would typically do. You just have to start observing. You have to get into the observer spot because that there's a there's a difference in between sitting here, like in my head, or sitting slightly above. There's a difference between sitting in here and sitting in here. If you sit in here, you are driven by what your nervous system is trained to do. And what your nervous system is trained to do is based on the operating system you received throughout your childhood. So if you sit in here, you will fall into the same behaviors and traps you have fallen into for the for for the life that you have lived so far, and you will never gonna change. But if you sit up here above, slightly above the head, and you take an observer spot, you get a lot more calm, you're able to observe things and sort of like have a little bit of a pattern interrupt and and not fall into your old behavior, same if you sit in uh in the in the seat of your heart. So, what you then gotta do is every time you get triggered, you need to write down after the conversation what got triggered, and then you ask why as long as you can do. And at some point, there's no answer to the why anymore. And that's when you found kind of like the core of what got you triggered. And that core is what you need to then investigate further. And based on that core, there I do strongly believe there are four different core wounds. Getting into those is a little bit is gonna, you know, expand the context of this conversation way too far because I could talk hours about it. But um, there that like these triggers typically lead back to a core wound, and each core wound has specific things that need to be done in order for this core wound to not heal. It will never heal, it will become a teacher. So your core wounds are your teachers here to teach you things about being a human or how to be a better human and what you need to bring forth in your ancestries to pass down to your children for the trajectory of consciousness to change on our planet. So it's a lot bigger than our matrix thinking of like there's a really good and great game plan behind what we experience here. So once you have that why, that last why, and you you can map it to a core wound, then based on a core wound, how you treat it, quote unquote, is is different, right? You can treat it with fire, with water, with air, and with earth. These are basically the elements that you can treat it with, and each have different, um, each carry different um different properties and different things that you need to do.

SPEAKER_01

Part of what you teach in your 12-week course.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and that's where the advisor comes in as well. Right. And that's where the initiation comes in as well, because like in those in those five weeks, uh, in those five days of personal, that's where we work a lot with the elements. That's where we yeah, where where we really you know explore the fire and the water and the earth and the wind and and embody that and integrate that within our journey, and that's what's changing us. That's where healing is. Healing is in nature. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Makes sense. Makes sense. I kind of want to shift this conversation to fatherhood a little bit. Um you talk about being an integrated father. So I want you to talk about what that is exactly, and then I also want you to talk about why that's impossible to have if you're still chasing the traditional definition of success.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Okay, cool. So the integrated father, how that came across and the name and and the concept of it is last year in the height of the our second pregnancy, my wife my wife has violent pregnancies. She's purging the guts out for eight months. She can barely drink and barely eat. She's people are dying from this shit.

SPEAKER_01

The hyperparmesis.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, hyper hype hyper hyper hyperamesis gravidarum or something like that. I always explain like that. She she she is allergic to pregnancy hormones. That's what's up. So it's wild.

SPEAKER_01

Anyways, oh, that's awful.

SPEAKER_00

In the in the height of that, um, we were sitting outside under the stars uh in a night where it was less dramatic. And um, we were talking about our lives and and how wild everything has been changing and how grateful we are for the change that's that's been happening. My wife expressed her gratitude for everything I'm doing. And um I asked her the question if your life chapter had a a name, what would you call? And she gave me an answer, and then she asked me, What would you call your chapter in life right now? And that was a year after her divorce ultimately. I said, like the integrated father. I'm integrating all the parts I lost or I was had never never had in my life into the father archetype, into the the chief archetype, into all these archetypes that I that I teach about and that I use in my frameworks. And she was like, Wow, okay. And that sat with me until my son was born. And when my son was born, I actually stepped out with those frameworks and I stepped out with all of the work that I had done on myself and started helping other men doing it. So the integrated father is basically about integrating these archetypes we have lost into who we need to become from boyhood to fatherhood or husbandhood. So I work with husbands and fathers. So boyhood to husbandhood and fatherhood, and integrating these archetypes and basically embodying them in all the work that needs to go along with that, embodying them in order to turn our marriage around, turn our parenthood around to the degree where we become the man, the husband, and the father that our family truly needs. If you look at it from like a higher perspective, being an integrated father is extremely important for your son and for your daughter. For your daughter, it's important because she's going to choose a man as her husband that looks like you.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

And it's important for your son because your son is going to be embodying the operating system that you are implementing into them. And that's why it's so important to become the integrated father, to become an integrated father that integrates all of these archetypes and embodies the man that their family truly needs.

SPEAKER_01

I'm wondering, just as I'm thinking about this, you guys had your daughter when you were still like in your boy phase, and then you've had your son now that you have stepped into this manhood and all of that. From your perspective, what was postpartum like for her in those two different scenarios?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, uh I don't like to speak for my wife, but I can share my observations and what she has shared with me. Yeah. So postpartum number one was hell. Was was hell, was not good, was absolute uh postpartum depression, um, the depths of depths of depths of darkness for her. Um, absolute breaking point, feeling absolutely unsafe, and also feeling so vulnerable. Just scary, really scary experience for her. Postpartum number two, flipped the coin on the other side. She felt safe, she felt held, she felt guided, she felt protected and served. She was very supported. I I I planned friends and family to come over for over six weeks. We were cooked for, our daughter was taken care of, the house was clean, we always had somebody at home that she could talk to or cuddle with. I spent a lot of time in bed with her and and with our son, just very present, very soft, very gentle, lots of body rubs, massages, and just the complete opposite of what I did.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, completely different.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and so and so yeah, she she bounced back pretty strongly, and now she's out and about in the world alone, three months. She's uh she's in Phoenix right now with my in-laws. Well, the second post program was was great, beautiful, and such a different quality of holding space and being able to be there and feel with her and hear her out and not try to fix anything, but just be there and hold her, you know, and just and have compassion for the emptiness that she feels in her womb right now after carrying a baby around for nine months, and the feelings of sorrow and sadness about giving birth, and yeah, all of the things that I would have brushed off before. I was like, yo, what the fuck are you sad about? Like the baby's here, baby's healthy, baby's good. Like, what are you sad about? You know, it's like I've I was such an idiot, really. Like, such a boy in a man's buddy. Wild. So, yeah, complete different experiences.

SPEAKER_01

Um, I would say before we get into this next question about what what you're about, like the future generations.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

For men that are still in a boy's body, but their wives keep telling them this, like how do they how do they get to the point where they realize like this is what's happening, that they are still in a boy's body.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Work with me, talk to me. That's one.

SPEAKER_01

Two feeling you're gonna be very direct with it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah. There's no there's no there's there's no much question asking around it. I'm developing a quiz right now that that will that will establish a little bit of these questions about like where men are stuck. Typically it starts with I don't feel safe with you. The wife keeps telling them I don't feel safe with you, and that's basically the opener. So if you hear from your wife, I don't feel safe with you, it's very likely you're stuck in a boy's body. If you hear from your wife that you never listen, you're probably stuck in a in a in a boy's body. If you hear from your wife that she has to do it all, it's probably that you're stuck in a boy's body. If you hear from your wife that she feels your business or your work's more important than her, you're probably stuck in a boy's body. Yeah, a lot of things. Those are good. Those are those are good starts. Yeah, those are good starts too to understand of like, okay, yeah, I think I'm stuck in a boy's body here.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Okay, going back to kids and the next generation, what is the one thing that you ha now that you have kids, especially a son, what is the one thing that you feel like you're going to teach your son about what it means to be a man?

SPEAKER_00

Uh once he starts to develop sexual desire, I'll take him out into the forest and probably have him not eat and not drink for four days in the forest and have him be initiated into manhood by overcoming something that he thinks might kill him. Um so that he leaves behind his boy identity and ha and starts to understand that when sexual desires enter, um, that's when responsibility starts to enter. Because sex and making love is a sacred act of creation and nothing to be fucked around with. It's your your sexual desires what either destroys this planet or what contributes to life. If you if if you're gonna be promiscuous or however you call that word, and you go around and fuck around, you're gonna you're gonna destroy this planet because you're gonna destroy a lot of women's hearts and trust. And you're not gonna be the leader that I want you and need you to be. So I'll take him out and initiate him into young manhood by by probably the age of twelve or thirteen. The biggest thing. Yeah, and then living as an example.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right. I love that. And and I think, you know, I'm I'm glad that that's what you touched on because lust is a huge issue with a lot of men that they cannot control, they don't have self-control, therefore they can't control the lust that they have.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and and and this is where this is where your discipline is trained every day because our hormones are testosterone, if healthy, it it will make us feel this desire. I don't know how deep I can go on here, but there are entities, meaning there are spirits around that feed on the sexual desire of men. And then men will start to think I will only get rid of this lust and this desire I feel if I masturbate, if I watch porn, or if I, for example, cheat on my wife in that moment because I feel lustful, right? And this is these spirits and entities, these darker and lower frequency energies that that feed on that behavior. And this is where men need to become a sovereign king, understanding that this is not going to surface kingdom, right? They need to become the lover and understand that and they have to turn to God and know that God has given us our women, our wives, for a reason and that this sexuality, sex is for them and only them, and nobody else. Not your hand, not your phone. It's your wife, and your wife is the only one. And if you don't get the sex that you need from your wife, that's your fucking problem because you need to lead differently. You need to build the environment where your wife desires you more. That's your thing. So if you you know it's it's good because uh the the lust and the desire can really drive a man into into understanding of like, yo, I'm actually in a driver's seat of like how much love my wife wants to make with me. And the here are the 24 enhancing factors I need to focus on to build a liveness in me and my wife, and then I'm gonna have a sex life where I make love every night. Where it's like, yo, okay, cool, kids are in bat, we ate dinner, fuck the series, fuck the TV. Let's let's make love, let's have fun. You know, yeah, and so yeah, uh, it's really important to understand that um porn is is very dangerous for your brain as well, because you get addicted to these chemicals. And a lot of these high-level CEOs and executives and entrepreneurs and these very high-achieving men, they they're they are they are searching for outlets of their stress, of their of like the pent-up energy throughout the day of like the that was so much, and all they want to do is either make love or rest in the arms of their wives, but because they're cold idiots and they have no idea how to lead their their wives, they then go into the bathroom and watch porn and jerk off and think they feel better, but that just leads them down a rabbit hole of where they actually destroy the connection between them and their wives because subconsciously there's something they have to hide all of the time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and that's you're you the wife feels that dishonesty. Yeah, they they absolutely do. The into intuition is huge there. And they like that's how you know when you're being cheated on, you know, you know you're being cheated on. You like the intuition is so high, it's unbelievable. I'm seeing a I'm seeing a pattern here with everything that you're talking about, Thomas. It's leadership and leadership and more leadership and more leadership, and I think that this is this is what's missing for sure. And also why boys stay boys and don't grow into men, because that's just a generational cycle that's being passed down.

SPEAKER_00

And boys are not leaders, boys are led by their parents. And so when boys start to develop into young adults and they start to form their own leadership, this is when they need to be broken, when their identity needs to be broken through. Through emotional and physical pain and the transmission of wisdom, which are called the ancestral continuum of knowledge and wisdom, in order for them to be able to step up into their responsibility, then understand what it means to lead your life. And then they can bring that into their first relationship, into their marriage, into parenthood. Yeah. It starts early. And that's what the integrated father is about, like breaking that cycle and re-establishing the ancestral continuum of knowledge. Because at the end of the day, we are in war today because we have more boys in seats of power than we have sovereign, sovereign kings and and then we have chiefs that are doing things for their people. We just need to become more and more men need to put their resources towards that growth. And then the trajectory of consciousness of our planet is gonna look very different in 150, 200 years, and and and the planet's gonna look a lot different if we if if if we work on that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it has to be it has to be real growth. Like it can't be like you said in the beginning of this of this episode, where you're you're like reading the books and listening to the podcasts and all of that. Like you have to actually be embodying and feeling the growth and and truly demonstrating that change moment to moment to moment throughout life.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, the the the growth, the the the determining factor of your growth is the results you see in your marriage and in parenthood. And if things don't change, you're not growing. Because if you grow, things will change. For your marriage to change, you need to change. If your marriage doesn't change, you are not changing. Full stop. That's huge. And yes, for some for some marriages, the wife is carrying a lot of trauma, and the trauma is making them refuse, is making them rebuke, is making them all of these things. But when you know, when you can rule out that you're not defensive, you're not emotionally reactive, you are leading, you are planning, you're taking shit off of your wife's back, you're present, you're emotionally available, um, you're sexually leading and initiating and all of these things. If you if you do all of that without exception and things are still not going in your marriage, that's when you can search the conversation with your wife and say, hey, look, for the past, and that's what I told my wife too. When I started my journey in September 2024, I told her, look, give me 12 months. If nothing changed, we're gonna divorce. Promise you. Because I don't want you to be trapped in a marriage that is not good for you or not good for our daughter. But in these 12 months, I will fucking do everything I can within 12 months, obviously. Um, we had that conversation 12 months later outside and talking about the integrated father. So it's like the results are gonna be the determining factor of the growth that you're actually doing, and you will only see change in your marriage if you change full stop.

SPEAKER_01

Huge, yeah, and I I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree. And I I love that you told her give give me 12 months and just just to change things because that that does make such a big difference. And I think people are so quick to, like we talked about earlier, upgrade the phone, upgrade the marriage versus keeping the family together. And I I don't think people truly understand the effects of divorce on kids either. So that's a that's a really big difference.

SPEAKER_00

And then also what I was thinking, because obviously I was thinking about divorce too, and if it was better or not, and I I was thinking, yo, this opportunity of being absolutely broken to the absolute ground into all of the parts. If I can find a way to fix that, rebuild that, and get back into a thriving marriage, this will bond us for the rest of our lives more than I could ever be bonded to anyone else, aside from not wanting to be bonded to anyone else, anyways, because I love her and she is my woman, she's my queen, nobody else. I don't want anybody else. And um, yeah, and then another thing uh often like when when men say like, hey, like you know, I think I should consider divorce. The question I ask is, are you ready for another man to step into your daughter's or your son's life and become their father?

SPEAKER_01

What if they say yes? That they've thought about that and that it's fine.

SPEAKER_02

Then I say we're not a good fit to work together. Go a different path. I don't care.

SPEAKER_00

Go go ahead. Either you will come back in two or three weeks really pondering because you're only asked answering the question out of out of spite and thinking you're like, ah, I don't fucking care. She can go and do whatever she wants, but you do that because of resentment, not because your heart feels that. But if you're really true to your heart, hell no. A different man parenting my child, hell no.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I don't I don't think another man is okay ever with another man raising their child. That's their legacy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And if they say so, it's out of spite, out of hurt, out of him out of them having their head in their ass and not seeing the world right. But if that happens then, they are definitely gonna have feelings of remorse and regret, for sure. A hundred percent. It's not gonna not happen.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Hopefully, because their children definitely deserve better. For sure. Man, okay. I kind of want to touch on this for for the I mean, we've kind of talked about entrepreneurs and whatnot, but just in doing an ego check here a little bit, you have built million-dollar businesses. So I want your honest to God opinion on this, all right? Is the provider role just a convenient hiding spot for men who are too scared to face the emotional demand with their wives?

SPEAKER_00

No. Yes and no. The provider role is extremely important in order to create the environment at home that your wife needs in order to do the things that your wife is designed to do. So the provider role is really important. It's really important. Though the provider role in uh a successful entrepreneur providing can become the excuse for, hey, I'm already doing enough. I'm eight hours at work. Yeah. No, not enough. And so when that becomes the excuse and sort of like the, oh, I'm already working so much and doing all of these things and providing this lifestyle and blah, blah, blah, blah, it's not enough. Not because I say so, but because women all across the planet say so. I have done research for hundreds and hundreds of hours to understand what how do the women speak about their men and how do they describe the problems. And they at first have an arc of like of like seven stages. At first, they say, everything else is so good. Just this thing. Everything else is so good. And then the next one is I've tried everything to let him know. I've tried everything to help him like to communicate my feelings. And that's when they when when they go basically into like this desperation of like, man, I don't know what to do to help. Yeah. And then I'm tired of being his manager. And that's when they get into frustration of like, then they look at all of the things they have to do, da da da. That's when they start feeling frustrated. And then I'm starting to resent him. And that's when they feel the resentment because they see all of the things they're doing, and they the man is not meeting them. And then they uh start to emotionally detach. And this is this is the most, most, most dangerous phase because that's when they have that silent withdrawal, when they stop talking about things, and the man thinks, like, oh wow, great, we figured it out. She got over her shit, and we're all good. No more talks. But that's when she's uh when she's shutting down now. Yeah, she's shutting down, she's emotionally detaching from the marriage, from the relationship, from the parenthood. And then the the intermediary stage, post-decision of like, I'm going to divorce. She hasn't communicated yet, but she will feel peace with that decision because of the weight of the relationship. And then the stage is I'm done. And that's when the woman typically makes the announcement. That was September 2024 for me, was the announcement. My wife went through all of these stages. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Been there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I'm happy I understand. Uh I yeah, I'm happy I understand that I can help men understand more of that and really help them turn around their marriages and for good, you know, and and make their wives feel the way they really want to feel and for them, for the for the husbands to feel the way they want to feel as well, you know.

SPEAKER_01

Because yeah, do you think it's more fulfilling for men? Like once in the in the when they shift from this is too much, this is too like I'm carrying everything, all the things. Do you think that there's a fulfillment in that of I'm building this and this is mine, and I've you know, like the when they're saying they're not happy because they are building it and and holding everything that there's a shift there?

SPEAKER_00

Ivan, yeah, for sure. When my wife comes home, when my wife sees me, she's like like she sees me as the embodiment of everything that is needed in her life. Like, I uh I I'm her man, I'm I'm the center of a universe along the kids. Like, if I'm home, like when I'm not with her, ten minutes goes by and it's like, baby, I miss you. When you embody that man and become that man for her, it's the biggest fulfilling feeling in your heart when your woman desires you after five minutes of being apart from you. When she comes to you with like, hey baby, I've read this today. I feel really scared about this. What do you think? Hey, baby, I was thinking about this. What would you do in this moment? Et cetera said, when she comes for your counsel, for your safety, for your warmth, for your strength, for your inspiration, for all man, it's nothing more fulfilling than that. None.

SPEAKER_01

It's awesome. That's really beautiful. It's interesting that um a couple of weeks ago I did an episode on maturity with an emotional sobriety expert. And at the end of our conversation, she was talking about the three things that you have to have in order to know that you are with the right person. And it's that you know without a shadow of a doubt that you are going to be growing with this person, that this person is going to like you are going to be the absolute best version of yourself because they have pushed you to grow. The second one was respect. And like it sounds like that's what your wife has. She respects you more than anybody else on this planet because of the work that you've done, because you've stepped into the best version of yourself.

SPEAKER_00

Earned it. I didn't demand it. I earned it.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And then the last one was just choosing that you are the one that she chooses to love every single day and love with her absolute whole entire being.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I I would I would sign off on that for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. That's awesome. With the respect, you earned it. I think there's a lot of men out there that think that just because they're a man or just because they're bringing home the bacon or whatever, that they they need to be respected. I beg I believe that men need respect more than anything in the else in the world where women need love and safety more than anything else. But I think there's a disconnect there with the the men and the boys.

SPEAKER_00

Respect is earned. Like you can't be a fucking Andrew Tate and just get a woman into your house and demand respect. I demand her to follow my rules. I demand her to do this and that and the other thing. What the fuck you do? Like, what did you do for her? Come on, man. Like what what what are the war trophies that you brought home for her? How much did you protect her from the world actually? And if you do, okay, yeah, you can demand respect, but demanding respect is also a very boyish thing to do. A real man works and works and works and earns his respect. And if his wife doesn't show it, the man leaves. That's what a man does. A boy demands it, a boy runs for it, a boy asks for it. A man does the right thing right and either gets the respect that he knows he earned or he will leave. And it's a very important part.

SPEAKER_01

Can you do you have time to dig into that a little bit? Because my whole thing here is I think there's a lot of men that leave thinking that they've earned that respect and they actually they haven't actually done the work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah, then they haven't then they haven't earned that respect yet if they haven't done the work.

SPEAKER_01

So it's like the ego says that they have done the work.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that and that's a problem. That's why they're still boys, because the ego dies when you turn into a man, a husband, and a father. And that's the ego death. You will take yourself out of the center of your life and you put your family next to God right there. And that's when things don't evolve around you no more. It evolves around your family and God. What does God want you to do, need you to do, and what does your family need you to do and want you to do? And then you harmonize those both, and that's the work you start performing. That's when you get the respect. And if your wife fails to give you that respect, and I always put a big exclamation point here. If you have fucked up in your marriage for two years, you gotta try at least for two years to make it right before you make a decision. If you're fucked up for a decade, you gotta give it a decade of time. It will typically go a lot faster than than the decade, but you gotta show up the same way to yourself how you showed up to her. So if you were dick for 10 years, can't expect to be a good one for a year and then get all of the respect you're looking for. No, no, no, no, no. It's like well, it's like you know, it's like no split personalities here. One way of thinking, a clear way of thinking, and an an integral way of thinking. Yeah. So don't make that decision um, you know, too early. Like put the work in that you put in as well to destroy your marriage, the same amount of time, and then you can elaborate and evaluate, and you can also let your wife know of like, look, um, we've been a year in it, and um I have changed drastically, and I've seen things change in our marriage, but there's still things that that need to be worked on, obviously. But uh in 12 months, um, we'll likely sit down and have a have a have a yes or no conversation if this is a path forward that we both want or not. And I will do my absolute best to make it a yes, but that requires your work as well.

SPEAKER_01

Sure. Yeah, it's a big exclamation point.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I like it. Yeah, important. Backbone.

SPEAKER_01

It is very important. I think there's way too many people that quit on their marriages too early. So I like it. Boys, yep, totally work.

SPEAKER_00

I will move on.

SPEAKER_01

Yep. He destroyed my sand castle.

SPEAKER_00

I don't like to play with him.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like I know. Thomas, gosh, thank you so much for being here today. I know we ran a little bit over, but I think a lot of men are gonna get out get a lot out of this, and I think a lot of women are gonna get a lot of hope out of this too. If men are brave enough to work with you and truly not just interested in the change, but committed to the change, how do they find you? How do they work with you?

SPEAKER_00

What does that look like? Uh go over to Substack, uh, write a Substack, um, go over there, um, read a couple of things about what I do, how I do it, and that will determine uh if you like it or not. And if you're really down to work with me, go on Substack. If you don't have an account, create yourself an account. I don't communicate anywhere else, I don't do Instagram DMs and shit like that. Substack is a very, very intentional platform. Yeah, head over to Substack, send me send me a personal message. Uh I'll get on a phone call with you and and check you out and see how it can help. If I can help, and if we're aligned, we can work. And if not, then not. Um, simple, simple as that.

SPEAKER_01

Love it. Yeah, I'm on Substack too. I really like that platform. It's a good one. Okay, Thomas. Thanks so much. Have a great afternoon.

SPEAKER_00

Thank you, Cameron. Likewise.

SPEAKER_01

I want to ask you a serious question. What are you feeding your mind right now? If it's social media, are you tired of doom scrolling through the angry comment sections and political rants yet? What if you use that time to actually fix your marriage? Welcome to the free married and connected school community. It's like social media, but without the ads, without the judgment, and without the noise. Just real self-paced tools that get you out of that roommate phase starting today. Inside, you get an exact blueprint for a weekly State of the Union meeting with your spouse. We're cutting mental load, we're stopping miscommunications, and we're breaking that exhausting loop of doom argument once and for all. Plus, you get instant access to workshops on overcoming resentment and bringing the actual fun back into your marriage. We have a dedicated space just for guys jumping into forging fortitude. It's a 10-week intensive to help you step into your masculine leadership and become the husband and man that God called you to be. And for ladies joining Edifying Eden, we're stepping out of that controlling, nagging era into our soft, nurturing feminine era. Even if your husband hasn't taken the reins yet. Either way, you can take responsibility for your side of the street. Stop scrolling the internet and start investing in your home. The community is 100% free with options to purchase certain courses. Click the link in the show notes and join the Married and Connected school community today. I'll see you inside. This podcast is for educational purposes only and is not a substitute for professional counseling or therapy. Every couple stories you need, so take what's helpful and leave the rest. By listening to this podcast, you acknowledge that neither I, Cameron Thompson, Al Ricky, Married and Connected, or Recognizing Potential Coaching are responsible for any outcomes related to what you apply from this show. Especially if you are not a client of mine.

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Kameran Thompson Al-Areqi

Host