Why Rocky Horror Still Makes Us Feel Seen with Linus O'Brien

Let's do the Time Warp.

This week, Corey speaks with filmmaker Linus O'Brien, director of Strange Journey: The Story of Rocky Horror and son of Richard O'Brien, for a conversation that feels like hanging out in the lobby after a midnight screening.

They talk about Tim Curry's impossible-to-replicate charisma, the magic of Frank-N-Furter, growing up around Rocky Horror, and how a movie that was never supposed to become a phenomenon somehow found millions of people who desperately needed it.

For Corey and Kendall, Rocky Horror isn't just a favorite movie. It's part of their story. Their first Halloween together involved weeks of building screen-accurate Eddie and Frank-N-Furter costumes, homemade makeup, a leather jacket sacrificed in the name of authenticity, and a second- and third-place finish at a midnight screening costume contest. More than twenty years later, they still have a Rocky Horror display in their TV room.

Because that's what Rocky does. It stays with you.

Whether you discovered it in a theater, at a convention, through friends who handed you a bag of props, or by sneaking a VHS tape when nobody was looking, Rocky Horror has always been about finding your people and celebrating what makes you different.

And because audience participation is mandatory, there may be a little surprise waiting in this episode that we think the Rocky faithful will appreciate. So grab your fishnets, your toast, your newspapers, and maybe a squirt gun. It's astounding.

Of corpse it is.

Thank you for listening to Horror Heals. 

Share the show with someone who loves horror and someone who needs a little healing.

If you want to support our guests, check the show notes for links to their work, conventions, and fundraising pages.

You can also listen to our sister podcast Family Twist, a show about DNA surprises, identity, and the families we find along the way.

Horror Heals is produced by How the Cow Ate the Cabbage LLC.

Is horror good for mental wellness? Of corpse it is.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Hello, foils and it's your old pal, trying to dear the voice of the And I want to welcome my good friends of the Horror Heels Podcast. Is horror good for mental wellness?

SPEAKER_03 0:26

Hi everybody, welcome back to Horror Heels. I'm Kendall Austin Stoltz. Before we get into today's conversation, I need to confess something. Rocky horror has been a part of Corey's and my relationship almost from the very beginning. On our first Halloween together, Corey was Eddie and I was Frankenberger. We weren't the kind of people who bought costumes from a store. We spent weeks making them. We obsessed over getting every detail screen accurate. We did our own makeup. Corey destroyed a perfectly good leather jacket to make Eddie's vest, cutting off the sleeves, hot gluing cheetah print to it, adding the lettering and the bone on the back. By the time we were finished, it looked like it had rolled right off the movie set. We wore those costumes to a Halloween party and then to a midnight Rocky horror screening at the Tivoli, which is a theater in St. Louis. Somehow we managed to take second and third place in the costume contest at the theater. And to this day, we still have a Rocky horror display in our TV room. For us, Rocky wasn't just a movie. It was creative, it was self-expression, it was community. It was finding people who loved the same weird things we loved. That's one of the reasons we're so excited about today's guest. Corey is talking with Linus O'Brien, son of Richard O'Brien, and director of the documentary Strange Journey: The Story of Rocky Horror. The film explores how a quirky little stage musical became a global phenomenon that's helped generations of people feel seen, accepted, and celebrated exactly as they are. Because if there's one thing Rocky Horror has always reminded us, it's that sometimes the things that make us different are the very things that connect us. And around here, we always ask the same question. Is horror good for mental wellness? Of course it is. Here's Corey with Linus O'Brien.

Corey 2:24

Hello, Linus. Welcome to the Horror Heels Podcast. Hi, Corey. I imagine today must be a pretty exciting day. We're uh recording this on the day that your documentary is available for streaming. Yes. And tonight is a big event, correct?

SPEAKER_02 2:39

Yeah, we're having a little party above the Roxy on Sunset Boulevard, which is where uh the original production came to LA, which Tim Curry was a part of, and on the opening night they had Mick Jagger, Cher, John Lennon, Jack Nicholson. Is it a fitting place to have the DOD release party?

Corey 3:00

Absolutely. So just to give you a tiny little uh bit of my history with Rocky, so I was born three days after the UK premiere of the movie. And I started attending screenings when I was probably 14 or 15 years old, the midnight screenings. I know I've been at least 50 times in person. And uh my partner and I, Kendall, have been together for 21 years, and our first Halloween, the year we met, I was Eddie and he was Frankfurter. So to say that we're a fan, that's an understatement. It's lovely to hear. So with this documentary, uh, was this something your father was open to, or did you have to convince him?

SPEAKER_02 3:40

He was open to it, and then when he uh found out about who my creative partners were and the work they'd done, and just was really wanting to make sure it included all everything about the stage play. Uh yeah, he was on board. We absolutely have to start with the stage play because I wanted to tell it's a great linear story. Well, linear in its trajectory, but then up and down a rise and fall, essentially, which all make always makes for great viewing. So the stage play is the the genesis of everything.

Corey 4:12

Absolutely. And then now here it is back at Studio 54 in New York City. It's just kind of amazing what the continued history of Rocky. Have you had a chance to see the new version?

SPEAKER_02 4:24

Yeah, I saw it on the opening night and was really happy with it. They've done a great, great show for Broadway, and Luke Evans has an amazing voice and really commands the stage. So yeah, it was really nice to see. And third time back on Broadway, third time's a charm, I guess. You know, it's the longevity of it is quite hard to believe. I guess it speaks to the uniqueness that Rocky is and the way that it pleases people on so many levels, whether it's the community or the connection they find in the midnight screenings, to the stage play, and then also a testament to the soundtrack and the musical and the music from it, which sometimes I feel gets a little bit overlooked because of all the other bombastic elements, which are fantastic, but the music is what sustains. And I've always said that you never get tired of listening to your favorite album. And for many people, Rocky is their favorite album, so they all get to listen to it together and join in.

Corey 5:22

Science fiction double feature is one of my favorite Kara go-to songs.

SPEAKER_02 5:25

So amazing.

Corey 5:28

So, how did you approach your father about this is what I want to do, this is my vision? And what was his feedback?

SPEAKER_02 5:34

I just sent him a few emails and it was just a little bit of a correspondence. And then once he was on board, uh he signed a contract with uh production company, Margot Station, and we were full steam ahead. We uh went to uh New Zealand in October 2023 and started the shoot from that moment on.

Corey 5:56

You posted something really interesting today, which I didn't know existed, uh, but there are actually your father has written several direct sequels to Rocky Story. Can you just give us a little taste of what those stories are like?

SPEAKER_02 6:09

They're everything that you would imagine they would be. It's funny because people go, Oh, I'd love really love to see this, and I'd really love to see that. And there's elements of everything people are thinking of in the scripts, because there's so many of them. So it was nice to kind of tease the fans and then put a comment about the VOD release to get people's attention. I'm not sure if anyone will ever see them or whether they'll ever get produced, but it was nice to kind of just uh put them out there and let people see the titles because I thought the titles are also very amusing.

Corey 6:45

Fascinating that this has been such a large part of your father's career and that he was thinking about the future of Rocky and and not letting it necessarily stop with the live show and the movie.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

A lot of people don't know that uh the first script he wrote, Rocky Horror Shows' Heels, uh, was written with a lot of the songs, if not most of the songs that were in shock treatment. So they were taken from Rocky Horror Shows' Heels and put into shock treatment. Uh so yeah, that's a tidbit that I don't know if many people know. And the songs from Shock Treatment are very good as well. So probably the strongest thing about shock treatment. It's amazing how prescient my dad was when he wrote shock treatment. He could see what American TV was becoming like and America's relationship to TV. And he also foreshadowed influencer culture and also the online therapy boom that's happening right now. So he has a real way of seeing things that uh other people don't see, and that was definitely true about shock treatment.

Corey 7:53

Yeah, it's very, very present, it's worth revisiting today for sure. Going back to your early days, what is your history with Rocky going back to your childhood?

SPEAKER_02 8:04

I saw it at the original stage production transferred from the Rule Court Theatre, uh theater upstairs, where I only had 60 seats and was only meant to play for three weeks, and it transferred down to the A Soldo Theatre, which became the King's Road Theatre, which was just down the road. Kings Road, for people who don't know, in the 70s was the place to be. Carnaby Street in the 60s was the street in central London, and then King's Road became the street. And you would spend your weekends, your Saturdays, strolling up and down the King's Road, looking at all these different, like you're looking at punks and Teddy Boys and the hippies, and it was like a real, a real happening. And so to have Rocky on the King's Road at that time, it was super hip. And I saw it there when I was probably five, four or five years old. They let me sit up in the balcony where they had all the lighting equipment and control the lights around the proscenium with this switch, which I thought was at four years old or five years old, I thought was fantastic. And the theater was very immersive. So as soon as you walked into the theater, the actors in the show would be dressed up in these disheveled suits with like a kind of frosted clear mask on, so you couldn't see their face, and they would lead you silently to your seats. And there was a real air of like foreboding in the theater. So the show started before it even began. That's my earliest memory. And then seeing the film was probably uh it's not the first time I saw it, but the first time I saw it with a massive audience was at the Beacon Theater for the 10th anniversary in New York. Uh that was lively because you're looking at like late 70s, early 80s kind of New York, which was just uh fascinating. All the movies that you see from that time, Midnight Cowboy and um Serpico and all that stuff, that that was the vibe, or at least the feel of New York City. So those are my two probably strongest, earliest memories of Rocky.

Corey 10:10

Is there a character that you've felt more drawn to over the years? Has that changed at all?

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah, yeah, I'm not particularly drawn to any of them. But I mean, obviously there's Frank, right? To be able to be that confident and self-assured and just willing to be himself. I think it's a character that everyone's drawn to, and especially Tim Curry's performance, because he just he embodies what Frank and Furda should be, this kind of strange mixture of like real like masculinity, but uh embracing his feminine side as well. And I think that's what makes him so alluring and attractive to people, especially women, because I think women want a masculine man, but they also want a man who can be in touch with his feminine side and relate to them. That combination is, you know, very, very powerful.

Corey 11:02

For sure. Was it a pretty easy ask to get everyone involved in the documentary?

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Yeah, it was very easy. We didn't have any kind of uh pushback from anyone. Like everyone wanted to be involved. I think I had a relationship with Yanel, Pat, and other people in the cast until my teens. And Susan Saranda apparently remembers me coming to the set and stuff as a very small child. And so yeah, it was very easy, and everyone was very happy to be a part of it. And we have everyone in the documentary. Were there any surprising revelations that were revealed through your interviews? The first one that really uh stood out was Pat Quinn kissing meatloaf and her story about that. So I thought that was very funny, and I'd never heard that before. One of the moments, which is actually my favorite moment in the documentary, is when my dad talks about seeing it for the first time with the film for the first time with an audience, I think in New Jersey at a convention, and he talks about seeing Dory Hartley, who is a Frankenfurder impersonator at the 8th Street Playhouse, at the bottom of the stage, mimicking the movements of Tim on stage in I'm Going Home, and her silhouette was the same size as Tim on the screen, and the audience was singing the refrains, and it gives me chills when you talk about it. When he did it on for the interview, it gave me chills, and then when we cut it together, we found the original footage from the first convention and were able to cut his story together with the original footage. So when I see that moment with an audience, I'm getting goosebumps now. When I see that moment with an audience and the theaters on the festivals and with our theatrical releases, it just gives me goosebumps. And uh what I love about it is it really conveys the uniqueness of what the midnight screenings are like with the shadow cast performances, the audience, it's like, as my dad says, live theatre, live audience, and live cinema coming together in a way that he had never seen before, and and it hasn't happened before. I mean, the word unique gets thrown around a lot, but Rocky is very unique in that regard. It's the longest-running theatrical release in film history, and second place isn't even close, you know. So it definitely stands out in the fact that there's nothing else like it.

Corey 13:28

Did he embrace the audience participation at the from the get-go, or was that something he had to learn to love?

SPEAKER_02 13:34

He's always been bemused about it and perplexed about it. He's very happy that it brings people together in the way that it has, but he just doesn't he doesn't understand it. He doesn't understand how something that he wrote just for fun, as he says from the mind of a 13-year-old, could end up having this effect on the community. When Rocky was at the Royal Court Theatre, I think there was a mandate at the Royal Court Theater, especially the main theater downstairs, that they were trying to uh to put on what they would call muscular theatre, things like uh plays from Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller, that kind of theatre, because you know, that's what they wanted to do. I think they had a survey that asked what what play at the Royal Court Theatre would you like to see on again, or has been very important. Rocky horror was the play, and I think it was a bit to their chagrin, really, because I think they they want to be seen as being serious and like you know, worthy and all the rest, which is great. My dad is a huge fan of Tennessee Williams. You've actually met him um at the King's Road Theatre. So yeah, it's uh he he loves all that stuff, but it's it's funny how Rocky, because it's not trying to send a message, it's actually endured more than than most plays of its time. Hey, it's Corey.

Corey 15:00

Just pausing here for a second. As I was editing this episode, I remembered an interview I did with Patricia Quinn several years ago, and she had so many wonderful stories about Rocky, and I was able to dig up that interview and clean up the audio a little bit, an opportunity to share a little taste of more Rocky with listeners. So here's me with Patricia Quinn.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

And those lips. And now I'm I'm just curious, how many have how many fans have tried to get you to list them with those lips so they can have your lips tattooed on them since they're so famous?

SPEAKER_01 15:34

I know that's true.

SPEAKER_04 15:35

Has anyone ever done that? Asked you to do that?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Take exactly that. I was in Australia, and this boy was in a wheelchair, and I don't know what was wrong with him. He was such a gas, this boy. So good looking. He had to, you know, you know, he said was gonna be a really good looking boy in a wheelchair. You've never seen anyone move a wheelchair like him to put him in the clean you know, listening to you, I have to just try to put my stuff. And then in this and he bought he bought um white paper, you know, the way to take it with me. He gave it to the paper or the the clean paper for you to do your lips because I wanted to. I thought I guess I did lipstick on it. Or maybe I could get some is it collagen quick? And I I kind of it was kind of slightly cardboard, but it didn't work. I've been keeping pictures all weekend and lipped out. But he was a drawer, and I said to him, Where do you live? He said, Buy the Cosmina. I said, Of course you do.

Corey 17:11

I had not seen the movie until I saw it at a midnight performance. I remember seeing the VHS box at the video store, and I was intrigued by it, you know, the lips, of course, and it's in the horror section. I don't know that I would necessarily call it a horror movie, but it does cross genres for sure. But I think I was a little bit I was a little scared of it and not really knowing what to expect at that first midnight screening. How would you describe what is that the atmosphere, what is that vibe?

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Well, well, the interesting thing about it, it's got such a good opening, right? When the the lips appear on screen and it's all it's very trippy, right? These these disembodied lips to this you know very androgynous voice. It just sets the table for what's about to come. And the crossing, crossing of genres, the homage to 50s B movies, 50s rock and roll. One of the main reasons people love it so much, or at least get into it so quickly, is because it deals with two very familiar tropes. It's the uh story of Adam and Eve, essentially, with Brad and Janet being Adam and Eve and Frankenfurter being the snake, and uh Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. So we all know those stories very, very well, going to the spooky house and everything. And so people are really on board before it's even like five, ten minutes in, because they are they are Brad and Janet going into this into this house in this world. So it makes it very uh easy for people to get on board, but then it's subverting those stories in a very unique way. Survive is electric in the in the theaters as soon as the lips uh appear.

Corey 18:53

Do you prefer the riffraff outfit that we see through most of the film, you know, the the uh tuxedo, or do you like the gold outfit at the end better?

SPEAKER_02 19:02

I don't know, actually. He's just a very he's just a very interesting character. My dad plays him very well. I think my dad's mandate has always been play it as seriously as possible, play it as if it's like Shakespeare, and then it gets even funnier. Right. And so I think that's what he tried to do. There's that very funny scene where I think it's during the time walk where he's like very like dismissively and casually trying to offer a donut to uh Brad and Janet, and it kind of gets lost. But uh it's all those little things which uh which I love about the character and what my dad did when he drops the champagne bottle and you find it very amusing.

Corey 19:43

Yeah, I think there's something you can see, something different every time you watch it, no matter how many times you've watched it.

SPEAKER_02 19:48

Yeah, right.

Corey 19:49

Is there a particular uh audience callback line or action that you love that tickles you?

SPEAKER_02 19:56

There was one that was very funny, and it had to do with my dad, actually. Uh there's that scene where um Patricia Quinn at the end, uh, Magenta says, They liked you, and then someone from the audience shouted out, Go for the Oscar, and then my dad delivers the line, they never like me, in a really like strong way. And so I really love that because uh it was it was good timing.

Corey 20:21

Yeah. Love at the beginning during Dammit Janet, when your dad drops the pitchfork and somebody from the shadow cast gets down and gets stinked for work.

SPEAKER_02 20:29

Yeah, I love that too. That one did pop into my mind as well. I like really enjoyed that.

Corey 20:34

I think what's so special about the the play and the movie is that and why I think it's endured and why it's had this life of it's almost you can watch the movie, but then you need to watch the movie with an audience as well. And it's the the creativity and the cleverness, I think, that just goes back to the very beginning. I think it was like people taking it to the next level, like, well, Richard gave us this, and we're going to take it to the next level.

unknown 21:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

I think one of the things that's quite interesting that kind of came out, made itself clear almost when we'd finished the documentary, is my dad talks about the three-week rehearsal period before it made its debut at the theater upstairs at the Royal Court. He says that the rehearsal period was so joyous and so fun that that joy and fun was spreading to the theater downstairs, and and then also word of mouth got out around the theater community, the rock and roll community. Uh, that there was something special happening here. And I think that joy and spirit has kind of imbued Rocky with what it was and what it's become, and it has like a like ripples on a pond where you throw a stone. That joy and love has spread throughout the Shadowcast and the general public. So even though they might not be aware of that joy that Was in the rehearsal period, they're feeling it. And I think those shadow costs are an extension of the joy of that rehearsal period.

Corey 22:10

So the movie and the show has obviously been embraced by a lot of communities, but the the queer community absolutely has embraced Rocky. How does your father feel about that be the movie and the show being so important to us?

SPEAKER_02 22:25

It was interesting because I think he's always kind of known it, but not to the degree that he might he should have necessarily. He said something in an interview recently, and someone asked the same question, and he was like, Well, actually, I think it's through the documentary which I found out more than ever. It's a great thing for me personally and the team to hear that because uh he's always been a bit dismissive of his work, uh, which does frustrate me. So to be able to celebrate him and the fans and the LGBTQ community and how it's been so supportive to them, it's been a great joy. I think Rocky at the end of the day will be remembered for many things, but I think it's the community and connection that it has provided to everyone. Anyone who's felt a bit different or lost or marginalized, or I think it's really provided a place where uh everyone can let their hair down and find other people like them, you know? And so it's a great joy and a gift. I'm happy with the documentary to just be a small part of supporting that legacy.

Corey 23:30

Yeah. I've had the opportunity to meet and or interview um Barry and Nell and Patricia and Tim, and which was wonderful to meet them all, but just to see other people's interactions with them, the joy and it's multi-generational, one of those just unique things, like a pinch meat kind of moment. And to see them light up as well. When I met Meatloaf, I had purchased a clock that Barry had made, like an art piece, which was made out of the original vinyl. And and Meatloaf was just so tickled by this.

SPEAKER_02 24:01

It's wonderful. It's funny, when people come up to me, you can see the smile and the joy on their face, and I know what's coming. It's the first time they ever saw Rocky. That's the thing they want to share the most. Because much like your first kiss or the first time you lost your actual virginity, Rocky Horror has a way of like burning that memory onto your brain, just like those other very strong memories. I can't wait to hear it whenever anyone approaches me. Because it's usually like I put on my Rocky clothes underneath my regular clothes. I told my mom I was staying at my friend's house, and I jumped out my window and got in my friend's car. And so, yeah, I have a lot of time for people who want to share their first-time Rocky stories.

Corey 24:42

What do you think the legacy is going to be 50 years from now when Rocky turns 100?

SPEAKER_02 24:46

I mean, Rocky is gonna outlive us all. Everyone who's alive today, once they're dead, it doesn't matter because somewhere on the planet, someone's gonna be performing Rocky Horror or watching Rocky Horror or listening to it. It's gonna outlive us all. And why not? With something that brings this much happiness to people and joy. There's a great um archival clip in the documentary that says, it's great to be doing this instead of anything else. Right? It's true, right? Why wouldn't you? It's a lovely way, very even though it's kind of titillating, it's a very almost innocent way of celebrating life.

Corey 25:27

Yeah. So the theme of this podcast is you know, horror culture, horror movies being good for our mental wellness. How is Rocky Horror good for our mental wellness?

SPEAKER_02 25:37

It just brings people together in a way that I haven't noticed before. There's a reason why dance music and electronic music is so popular, the way that it brings it makes this communal atmosphere of joy and everyone uniting everyone, and Rocky's been doing that for years. It's funny, it's titillating. Another thing about it as well, society has a way of telling us what sexuality should look like or feel like or be like. And Rocky gave everyone the right to feel that. We get one life to live, and and being in a loving or sexual or loving relationship, uh, despite how you look, whether you're thin, big, tall, you know, it it it doesn't matter. It's given everyone the ability to feel like, oh, I can be a sexual being and I don't have to feel shame about my body. And we all do. We all feel shame about it from time to time. And so that's another gift that that Rocky has given the world, is that you it you can you're allowed to feel like you're you know that you can share love and there's no shame about it. Definitely.

Corey 26:58

So the last question that we typically ask on the podcast is who is your favorite final person, the survivor in a horror movie? But I'm curious is who is your favorite survivor of the Rocky Horror Picture Show? Because we have several.

SPEAKER_02 27:11

I don't know if I have a favorite, but Rocky is also maybe about the death of the American dream in a way, or at least this kind of awakening from the 50s to the 70s, right? Brad and Janet kind of embody the 50s couple, all innocent and wide-eyed and you know, going through life like they feel like they should, and they get thrown a big curveball, and they're shown, well, life can be like that, but it can also be like this. And so that's an awakening which I hope most people can figure out early on in life, and so you don't get to like 60 or 70, like, oh no, this is what life could be like. So I think Rocky kind of it was a wake-up call for some people. And I like to think that Brad and Janet have been changed for the better, even though they've been through what some would describe as a very uncomfortable weekend at the house.

Corey 28:10

That's very fair to say. Well, Linus, I so appreciate you making the film and being willing to come on and talk about it. I hope it's um does very, very well. I can't wait to see it. I love Rocky, and just to be able to watch your dad talk about uh this truly historic project is very exciting for me.

SPEAKER_02 28:28

Well, I can't wait for you to see it, Corey, and thanks for taking the time to chat with me.

SPEAKER_03 28:32

Of course. Wonderful. Thanks for listening to this episode of Horror Heels. One of my favorite moments from Corey's conversation with Linus was hearing him talk about the joy at the center of Rocky horror. Not just the movie or the music, but the joy that spread from those early rehearsals into the audience, into the midnight screenings, and eventually into an entire community. I think that's part of what Corey and I connected with all those years ago in 2005 when we were spending nights covered in makeup, hot glue, and costume pieces scattered across the living room floor. We weren't just recreating characters we loved, we were becoming part of something bigger than ourselves. Rocky Horror has always been a place where people who feel different can show up exactly as they are. Whether you're queer, awkward, anxious, artistic, introverted, or just a little weird, there's room for you. That's a powerful thing. And it's one of the reasons Rocky has endured for more than 50 years. If you'd like to learn more, Strange Journey, the story of Rocky Horror, is now available to rent or purchase on Amazon Prime Video, Apple TV, and Fandango at home. The documentary is a wonderful love letter to the cast, the fans, and the community that helped turn Rocky horror into a cultural phenomenon. It also gives Richard O'Brien the chance to reflect on a legacy that continues to bring people together decades later. Until next time, the monsters aren't always what hurt us. Sometimes they're what help, sometimes they're what help us heal.