Tatevik Mkrtchyan on Building Learning Culture at Scale: IKEA's Skills-Based Approach

Most AI training programs fail not because of content, but because they ignore how people actually work. Shop floor employees, scheduled workers, and frontline teams need something radically different from desk-based learning. 

In this episode, I'm joined by Tatevik Mkrtchyan, Competence and Leadership Leader at IKEA Germany, who oversees learning strategy for 20,000 coworkers across 54 stores. 

We discuss: 
• Why AI training fails when it ignores frontline workers and shop floor realities
• How to build AI communities that create movement instead of temporary change projects
• The difference between skills-based organizations and traditional capability models
• When AI avatars and conversational AI make sense for L&D - and when they don't

Connect with Tatevik:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tatevik-mkrtchyan-8a59b777/

Connect with Valeriya:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/valeriya-pilkevich/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@aimadesimpletalks
Podcast: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2558906

Need help building AI capability in your organization? Book a call. 

Transcript

Valeriya Pilkevich (00:00)
Welcome to AI Made Simple, the transformation series. I'm Valeria Pilkevich and I talk with global leaders, innovators and practitioners who are shaping the future of work in the age of AI. I'm joined today by Tatevik Mkrtchyan, competence and leadership development leader at IKEA Germany, where she drives learning strategy and skills development across one of IKEA's biggest markets. We talk about why the learning environment matters more than learning design, how IKEA uses AI communities and peer learning to scale adoption, skills-based development as a tool for employee empowerment, and where AI-powered learning, like avatar-based negotiation training, actually drives ROI, and where it doesn't. If you're an L &D leader or a business leader trying to build a adoption that goes beyond awareness session, this conversation gives you a practical playbook.

Valeriya Pilkevich (00:54)
Hi Tatevik, it's a pleasure to have you on this podcast.

Tatevik (00:57)
Hi Valeria, thank you for having me.

Valeriya Pilkevich (00:59)
You lead learning skills for IKEA Germany. It's a huge organization. Maybe you can also tell us how many employees are in the IKEA Germany. does this role actually look like?

Tatevik (01:08)
Yes, thank you for asking. First of all, let me give context. So IKEA, we sell home furnishing goods. If you your audience don't know what IKEA is, and IKEA is a big, big, large company. And as a company, we are placed in many different countries, almost 60 countries. And IKEA Germany is the biggest country.

Valeriya Pilkevich (01:14)
Mm-hmm.

Tatevik (01:32)
We do have the most IKEA stores, 54 stores, and we do also have the most IKEA coworkers or ⁓ approximately 20,000 coworkers. big organization, are a matrix organization. What does this actually mean? We do have two different mothers.

one in the Netherlands and we do have one in ⁓ Malmö in Sweden and as a company they deliver concepts frameworks and so on and they develop or roll out it in the countries and my position and my responsibility is to receive such frameworks concepts strategies to understand

how to use it in the country, like the adoption of such frameworks is one key, apart from my day-to-day work. And the other question is how to use it in Germany, how make it available, how make it accessible, how to democratize what we have for the many people out there. So in my position, major focus of me is bridging the global organization and the national organization.

from the perspective of learning.

Valeriya Pilkevich (02:40)
you often talk about focusing on where the real value of business is created and translating that into people and culture capabilities. in my practice, I see that many companies are rolling out the same AI training, very generic to the whole organization, to different units, not tied to risk cases

so adoption stays shallow because people do not understand "What's in it for me?" How can I apply it today to my workflow?

Valeriya Pilkevich (03:09)
how do you avoid that in IKEA? And how do you anchor the learning in real value creation instead of one size fits all up-skilling programs?

Tatevik (03:17)
Yes, maybe first of do have my own learning philosophy and also learning strategy. If you ask me where value sits, it sits in the stores. So we need to create learning, offer learning opportunity and also learning design, which is digestible by a coworker who works in a store. What do I mean by working in a store?

shop floor coworkers, shop floor coworkers who are under the tremendous stress consulting the client, the consumer, the customer, working in scheduled environments. We do not work laptop or a computer. So they do have really different everyday work life. It's me and you, we are sitting in front of the laptop and we own our time.

which we actually don't do, they don't own that time. So first of all, the question is, which kind of structure do we have to learn? This is the first question. Which kind of company environment do we create? Which kind of accessibility? also, how do we democratize learning for this many coworkers also on the shop? This is first question. The second question is how...

Does the leadership support the learning environment, the learning of the individual or individual or coworker? This is the second one. And only on the third level, we have the question of learning design. And I actually don't company is able to create this adaptive learning environment, which each coworker needs. We do have 20000 coworkers and 20000 coworkers have

40,000 different needs, ⁓ also different learning needs. And that's why I think the question is, of course, to have great learning design, but learning itself, it's a question of the environment, the question of peer learning, the question of the ability to exercise, have.

Valeriya Pilkevich (05:00)
Mm-hmm.

Tatevik (05:18)
learning rich work to be able to use this, having a general upskilling offer, a general learning offer. This is the one question, but this individualization part, this is being created in the workflow in this learning rich work, but also in different communities. Our chief

digital officer emphasize the importance of digital communities, AI communities, peer communities, peer learning. This is where the magic actually happens in exchange between different coworkers finding the right solution, but also questioning the solution. and if you ask me, I don't think we do have an adaptive learning offer, but I think we create.

learning possibilities in different communities. And this is where the magic, the actual magic happens.

Valeriya Pilkevich (06:10)
Tatevik, you mentioned communities as where the real learning happens. Can you share how you structure that? Is it top down with frameworks or do you let the most motivated people drive it organically? Or both?

Tatevik (06:23)
Yes, we do both. So when it comes to we have a very comprehensive AI strategy, which is being owned by our Chief Digital Officer. And we do have, of course, a digital and AI coworkers who support this movement, this transition and transformation. They. They offer guidance, they offer frameworks and they facilitate

communities, different communities. And within these communities are first of all, the first adopters. I always want to say first aiders. Maybe they are also first aiders, who knows? But like these are communities, our digital coworkers or like chief digital officer, they create the framework and the environment.

for this community they facilitate and within these communities we do have general people who are interested in and with them with their energy we create a movement but this movement needs to spill over and for this movement for this energy to spill over we need a broader framework in an organization with 10 to 1000 co-workers we do have

many communities and for the AI community, if we have 600, it's not enough. We need to use their motivation to spill over, to energize other coworkers by being a learning body, by being a digital body, by ⁓ providing their knowledge and also skills for the coworkers who are hesitant to use AI, to try AI, to learn it.

your question was grassroot or top down. think both is important. You need to communicate what is happening on a strategic level and what is happening on a day-to-day basis for us to create a movement and not to think in form of change management and project management because change management and project management, they have an end date and the movement is forever.

Valeriya Pilkevich (08:21)
I was reading about how Satya Nadella transformed Microsoft from a know-it-all to a learn-it-all culture. In your experience, how do organizations make that shift, especially around AI adoption? And how important is psychological safety and permission to experiment in that process?

Tatevik (08:39)
I think

the learning culture is the base of invention and innovation. There are studies and there are theories about it. So in order for an organization to become a learning organization, we need to think of each individual, of the personal mastery of each individual. So what is an individual able to learn and how able to learn?

Is the individual ready to change its mindset? This is the first thing. But also how a leader can support its team to learn to have not only team development, but also learning team. And only when this learning team and the individual learning ability cross over, we do have a learning organization. and especially in this times.

where we a world is called WUKA or it's called BANI. You can take what you want, but we are in a world which is changing so fast. We can't like wrap our heads around it. And more about not being know-it-all, but to see yourself as a curious person who is able to experiment.

in a day-to-day life, in a day-to-day work. So comes down to the learning culture, it's the question: do we have the freedom to experiment? Do we have the freedom to be curious? And if we don't have this freedom or the psychological safety, then the overall organizational culture needs to change to support us to have it.

And I think, ⁓ if it comes to AI and also AI adoption, it's quite common that, the technical advantage come first, then there's some time and only after this time, people try to understand this technical advantage and learn,

But the organizational culture, the learning culture within teams, but also the individual learning ability are most important. And if you ask me, what do I mean by learning ability? It's first of all, ability to change mindsets. Then the ability to be critical, be resilient.

And also to be ready to lead themselves or the unknown because what is now happening is the unknown, not only for the organizations but also for the people itself. Like this all soft skills and personal, very interpersonal skills. This is all about this interpersonal mastery, self-mastery.

Valeriya Pilkevich (11:07)
It's a very interesting perspective. IKEA has been moving from capability-based to skills-based approach. And ⁓ can you tell us, what is it first? What is skills-based? and why it is important nowadays?

Tatevik (11:22)
Yes. So the question of skills based or organization or skills based learning is the question of being more precise and specific. So I can talk to you and I can say, please improve your communication skills. And now you can ask yourself, what does she mean by communication skills? Do I need to work on my pronunciation?

Do I need to work on my chatting skills? Do I need to work on how I am talking? And this question of the specification is the question of skills. So if I say, please learn something about communication skills, especially your writing skills need improvement, then this writing skills is the skill behind it.

And if an organization talks about skills based, mostly talks about how can we use the abilities a coworker has for better resource management. But when it comes to resource management and it comes to understanding which capabilities or which skills a coworker has, the coworker is not interested in being

Resource managed. The coworker is rather interested in understanding their abilities, skills and also understanding how to develop them. So I think an organization has two approaches or two different goals. First of all, is to understand what is my coworker data, which skills do they have?

And how can I use this knowledge to better upskill, to plan better my resources, my project management and so on. And the other thing is about how a coworker can be developed, but also for my growth ambitions or for my business ambitions. And if it comes to a coworker itself, the coworker asks always, does

what I'm doing now improve my performance or does it improve my potential? And this is actually what skills about it's understanding the talent in more detail and using this understanding to plan better development or better resource management.

Valeriya Pilkevich (13:29)
When I think about skills-based approaches and AI exposure, for instance,

If employees can see which parts of their role are more AI exposed or automatable and which skills to develop next, that becomes empowering rather than threatening. Do you see skills frameworks serving that purpose at IKEA, giving people agency over their own development in the face of AI change?

Tatevik (13:52)
That's actually why I'm pro skills. So skills are a tool like it's everything else. We can use everything as a tool. can use AI as a tool, but we can use AI also as something which is dangerous for us. So ⁓ and it's it goes the same for skills if I own my own development, if I own my own learning and I take ownership

I of course need to understand, what am I working with? What do I bring to the table? skills do I have? where do I develop? Where's my goals? And this is like this very basic skill, like gap analysis. What do I have? Where do I want to go? What is missing and what I need to develop. And you can do it, with a coach. You can do it with a system.

⁓ And a big organization, of course, we can provide for everybody, a coach which analyzes your skills, but we can provide the right digital framework for it. You can use this right digital framework to understand your position, your ambitions and what it's missing to achieve your ambitions. You can use your leader as a coach to support you on this journey. But of course, it's only a tool.

But you can use this tool very good for your own personal achievements. So that's why I'm actually very pro skills. But I also understand that without this learning and also the development culture, you get more frustrated or frustrated because then the development is not happening. So it's quite important not only to provide the tools for analyzing.

but also providing the way forward.

Valeriya Pilkevich (15:32)
So what is your point of view? What skills do you believe will be more important and more relevant in the future?

Tatevik (15:37)
I actually think that if it comes to personal skills, there's not much changed, to be honest. They simply change their position like number one or number 10. But the first 15 skills are all the same. They're just changing the position. So you always needed to be resilient. You always needed to take ownership of your own personal life. You always needed to communicate to

network and so on. So I think the self leadership skills are still important. And if it's like, if resilience is top one or top three, it doesn't matter actually, because resilience is still ⁓ important. And I think like this changing digital skills, AI literacy itself, this is where the

change is happening. So while the emphasis on technical skills or while the change is more frequently in the technical skills, there are not many changes in the soft skills and personal skills direction. So to be honest, what was important 10 years ago is still important now.

on the emphasize it a little bit more because the change on the other side is more frequently.

Valeriya Pilkevich (16:48)
Tetevik, I saw one of your LinkedIn posts about exploring AI agents for L &D. And I know you've been experimenting with AI avatars for learning at IKEA.

Can you tell us more? What have you found works? What are you exploring? And what have you decided? It doesn't make sense.

Tatevik (17:04)
Yeah. So actually what we are looking into AI avatars. we do have a B2B function. This B2B function leads very difficult negotiations and so on.

And what we created for this B2B function is a learning environment where they can practice with an AI avatar their negotiation skills. They can lead a whole conversation with this AI avatar. you have like you and me, you have somebody to lead a dialogue with. And it's crazy to see.

how this works and also to see the direct feedback and also engagement between the coworker and AI. But this comes also with the challenge and the biggest challenge is actually the topic of licenses because these AI avatars they creating but also maintaining of this AI avatars

costs money, money which is of course licenses. So we need to be very cost conscious to understand where do we want this investment and where not.

And for 20,000 coworkers to use an AI avatar who works simultaneously with you and gives feedback and also bear in mind this ⁓ license costs, it's too much. But there's also a possibility of having the conversational AI, which comes with fewer license costs, ⁓ which we can look for the 20,000 coworkers because having

⁓ license costs for, I don't know, I can say the number, but, for this, ⁓ AI avatar, there are bigger license costs, but for this smaller conversation or AI, the license costs are less, but there's still license costs behind it. So for us, we are looking into both and always deciding what is the target group, how much return of invest do we expect or do we want? And when to decide.

⁓ which learning design suits our needs, but also our financial framework, because to be honest, it costs money and it's not like, we always need to be very cost conscious about our spending. and, what we understood for us as a company, we can't work with,

AI or like augmented reality glasses on a big scale because we do have like 20,000 coworkers. and we won't provide AI glasses for them. So we AI driven learning environment for different type negotiation skills.

Tatevik (19:48)
workshops or I don't know, for now we are looking for example into an AI conversational learning offer for the topic of ED

The topic of equity and diversity and inclusion is a very sensitive topic. You can create different use cases for use cases where somebody misbehaves and you can create a very safe space of AI and you can engage with the person who misbehaved or

Tatevik (20:18)
⁓ I don't know, like you can create engagement, and you can talk with an AI about this topic and you can have direct feedback and direct conversation without leaving the safe So I think, AI learning design can do wonders if you use it correctly and not on the

copy and paste the same content which is already everywhere else.

Valeriya Pilkevich (20:42)
So from what you're sharing, I'm hearing first, check the ROI, second, match the right AI capability to the right use case. What else? What's your advice for using AI and LND correctly?

Tatevik (20:52)
first of all, understand is the problem a L &D problem? Or maybe is it a leadership problem or is it a systems problem or a process problem? If it's an L &D problem, use AI for content curation. If gaps.

then you can understand how can you use AI for content creation. And for content creation, then you can understand which design serves better for your problem to solve. And there are many different designs you can use for us, for our solution or for what we had in mind. The conversational AI was the best possible solution. Of course, we

the high end, but the high end comes with costs. So now we need to understand how we can downsize our ideas to serve the problem or the needs better.

Valeriya Pilkevich (21:43)
And the last question. If you could give business leaders one piece of advice for building a true learning culture, one that's resilient and future ready, what should they do in the next six months?

Tatevik (21:53)
Don't delegate, do it yourself with AI and delegate after.

Valeriya Pilkevich (21:57)
I love it. Thank you so much. Thank you, Tatevik. It was a great discussion.

Valeriya Pilkevich (22:01)
You can find the Tatevik Mkrtchyan on LinkedIn. All links are in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, follow AI Made Simple, the transformation series for more conversations with leaders shaping how AI is actually adopted inside organizations. Thanks for listening.