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The Northbound Show
Scaling Nordic Identity: Two Founders Who Rewrote the Rules
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In this episode of The Northbound Show, host Ken Villum Klausen sits down with Oscar Höglund, co-founder of Epidemic Sound and Sander Janca-Jensen, co-founder of Flatpay.
After 18 years building Epidemic Sound into a company that soundtracks the internet, Oscar Höglund made one of the hardest calls a founder can make — stepping back. Sander is in a different chapter entirely, heads down building Flatpay toward 100,000 customers and on the verge of opening a new market outside of Europe.
Together, they go deep on the Nordic founder mindset, talking about why consensus isn't weakness, why under-promising and over-delivering is a philosophy worth living by, and how humility, when wielded right, becomes your sharpest competitive edge. And they get honest about what success truly demands: the responsibility to reach back, open doors, and make the path a little easier for whoever comes next.
This is what Nordic entrepreneurship looks like from the inside.
🎙️ Why The Northbound Show?
Hosted by Ken Villum Klausen, CEO & founder of Lunar, The Northbound Show brings together Nordic founders and leaders for long-form conversations about how small nations consistently build companies with outsized global impact. Because the Nordics’ greatest export isn’t a product. It’s a mindset.
This episode is powered by Lunar.
I'm really excited to be uh showing this episode of the Northbound show with what is, in my opinion, two of the very best founders we have here in our own region. Oscar from Epidemic Sound.
SPEAKER_03So you can bring it, but you have to show them that it's for real. And Stanford from Flat Pick. If they're discounting it to the same extent as they're discounting that overly aggressive plan, you lose, right? Freaking awesome founders with great stories. I wanted to portray this as small and boring because I didn't want any competitors.
SPEAKER_01They all replied.
SPEAKER_00You're in for treating.
SPEAKER_04First of all, with me today, we have um straight from Sweden, the greatest founder in the world, Oscar. And the reason for me calling him the greatest founder is the first time I met him, we connected instantly. So I put down his number on my phone as the greatest founder there is. Hey Oscar, how's it going?
SPEAKER_02Hey Ken. Hey Sander, hey everyone. Uh I'm doing really well. I'm calling in from a beautiful, beautiful Stockholm. And uh I'm super excited to join. Getting to sit down and chat with all of you is something I've been looking forward to immensely. So I'm very happy to be here.
SPEAKER_04I really appreciate you joining. And then um the other guy who's on the call is uh equally impressing, probably one of the most impressing Danish founders, if not founders in Europe right now. Uh if um if Apple redid their think different campaign right now with here's to the crazy ones, the misfits, the troublemakers, they would probably switch out Picasso with uh with a picture of Sander. So Sander, welcome to the pod.
SPEAKER_01Thank you again. Thank you. Yeah, I think we we had to reschedule because there was no sambuka in the uh first couple of invitations.
SPEAKER_04This would have been so much more fun in person because uh I think last time I was I shared a stage with Oscar. We had beers on stage also. So uh we'll we'll do a follow-up um in person um at a later point in time. So look, um just before we kick it off, maybe Sandra, you can just talk us through what's happening over at Flat Pay right now.
SPEAKER_01Lots of stuff uh going on at the Flat Pay. I think we are we're closing in on 100,000 customers. Uh business is just doing better and better. I think in March uh we did more customers than we did the first uh 24 months uh after launching. So yeah, lots of lots of exciting stuff uh going on, and hopefully after summer we'll be able to uh to tell that we're opening a new uh big market outside of Europe as well.
SPEAKER_04I can almost imagine what market that is, but uh we'll we'll save that for another time.
SPEAKER_00You don't need a lot of detective skills to figure that out, but uh no, no.
SPEAKER_04Mexico! Here we come. What about you, Oscar? What's uh what's happening? Look, you stepped down uh over the last couple you kind of retired and took a board position instead. So what what's happening on your end?
SPEAKER_02So um I'm a huge fan of two things being true at the same time. Uh so you're absolutely right. From my perspective, I've been at the helm of epidemic for now almost two decades. Uh so pushing 20 years or at least 18 and a half. And uh to that end, about six weeks ago, I decided now was a great time for me to transition from being the person leading the charge to being a person who sits at uh board level instead. Rather than being the jack of all trades and master of none, I get to spend like much more time in a few distinct areas. And so that's on the personal end, which I'm adjusting to, thoroughly enjoying, but we can get to it later on, like the transition and the role of the founder and the role of the builder, like how that changes over the first week, month, decade, two decades. It's psychology one-on-one. So I have tons of thoughts around that. But then business, similar to Sander, is compounding super well. Like a company that's trying to soundtrack the internet, like the internet keeps on growing like crazy. Previously it was just humans creating content. Now we have more sort of AI production than we've ever seen before. This allows us to open up new avenues, new ways of producing content, scaling content, looking in different verticals. Like suddenly everyone's a storyteller. And content without music is like food without taste. And so there's a huge demand, and we're running like crazy after it.
SPEAKER_04Being a Swedish superstar founder, we've heard all of that in so many podcasts and interviews in Sweden. I think I've like the amount of times I've heard people giving credit to you as a huge inspiration source is getting shy of annoying. So besides all of that, maybe just the origins behind um behind epidemic. Thank you, I think.
SPEAKER_02Um but um kidding aside, um I think starting companies and becoming an entrepreneur is like it's perspiration, it's inspiration, but more than anything, it's annoyance. Like it tends to start with a problem, something that bugs you, right? Um and for me, I was a recovering management consultant. I did that for two years, but I was really poor at it. So I transitioned to something else. Um, my wife uh was working in TV production at the time. Like, so I got drawn to that. I fell head over heels in love with storytelling. I was at this production company for a couple of years, and we made TV shows. I was hired now. I came from BCG, like this high-flying uh start to my career, which I left after two years. My friends thought I was an idiot. And I joined Zodiac, and my job description was to make coffee. So I make a kick-ass cup of coffee and then buy companies and then run an IPO and throw decadent office parties. And I could do all four of them like really, really well. But then eventually I transitioned and I got to be head of multimedia, which was super unsexy. It's aged, that expression has aged as well as my hairline, basically. But in multimedia, I got to understand earlier than most that YouTube was this once-in-a-generation transition. Storytelling was taking a massive step, and soundtracking the internet was a complete and utter shit show. So I'll stop shy of that. Like, so I was fortunate to stumble on this opportunity where all content wanted to move online and nothing worked. And I can go into great lengths like the detail, but there was a problem. It was frustrating. Everyone was trying to take advantage of you. It was expensive, it was litigious, and it was deeply unsexy. Like nowadays, epidemic might come across as quite sexy because it's music and it's media and whatnot. But in in the early days, it was a niche market. Like we did background music. Like when I would tell people at dinner parties that I work in background, like elevator music, they would like, oh, this guy is so boring. But that was kind of on poor purpose. I wanted to portray this as small and boring because I didn't want any competitors. So uh yeah, fast stumbled on a problem, fell in love with it, and that's the like true story. And then it grew from there.
SPEAKER_04Obviously, I know this story well, but maybe also for the audience, you can give a big of the um kind of founding the founding story for flat pay. Without without saying multiple times that it's the fastest growing unicorn in Denmark and faster than Luna and blah blah. Like the polite version.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, that there's the there's the the the let's say the polished version where we talk about uh that we worked uh a lot of years for very shore and they were owned by the self like the same PE firm as as Nets, that's the incumbents in Denmark. We found some inspiration and and and yada yada yada, but I think actually most importantly, um I didn't want to work for the rest of my life, and I figured that if if if that was the case, then I could probably not, let's say, keep working for others. And um also uh I was not having as much fun as I as I thought I should have going to work, and and therefore uh I left my old job and uh and and I had like basically a white canvas. So we uh we sat down, uh the the four uh the four founders of Flat Pay and we didn't even like have an idea on let's say where to go, and we just ended up like going back, having payments on the list, all of us, and then concluding, okay, let's try and understand all the things we don't understand. Uh we probably had like a hundred meetings with people from our network and introductions that they made, and then we we figured out okay, physical payments, selling payment terminals is still 10x bigger than online. It was still and and are still growing faster um in in absolute terms than than e-commerce. Um we thought we could utilize field sales as a go-to-market uh model in this uh in this space, and then we just started like going. Uh we got the first couple of customers without even having a website, without the terminals functioning. Uh, like the first couple of customers we onboarded, you couldn't use your like pin code. Uh luckily it was at a bar. Um so uh what what really happened was that there were like a lot of young people they came, so you could still pay with Apple Pay and Google Pay. You could also pay with contactless under 50 euros, but everything with your card above 50 euros, it would just say incorrect pin, even though it was the right one, right? But the people behind the bar simply just thought that the like this, they're still just too drunk to remember their PIN code because they could not imagine that the terminal wouldn't work with a PIN code, and I think we we we couldn't like we couldn't fix it immediately because we had to go for like through certification and we we just kept saying like they they must just be very drunk, right? And then we paused installing any more uh customers, but uh yeah, it's like it's quite it's quite a funny story.
SPEAKER_04The purpose for this podcast is mainly speaking about the Nordics because I'm obsessing about the region that we find ourselves in. I think uh I think we have an awesome region. We have an uh you know an insane great starting point or an insanely great launch pad for building businesses out of the Nordic region. Um I I I recall, I think a few years ago I went, I was lucky enough to get an invitation for an Obama event um and uh in the Nordics, and Obama came on stage and he said, Look, you guys in the Nordics, not not really sounding at all as Obama, but when he came on stage, he said, You guys in the Nordics, when you come together, you really punch above your weight. And I really I really recall, and I think at that moment I sat next to a Swedish founder and a Norwegian founder, and we were like, Yeah, we're the Nordics. So for like for a quick second, we felt like one region, like a full-on brotherhood across the Nordic countries. And I think I think there is something magical about the Nordics that yeah, at least I want to be an advocate and an ambassador for. So maybe, maybe Oscar, if we're going into the Nordic path, is there parts of the Nordic mindset that you felt you could utilize when you were a scaling epidemic outside of your home turf?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean tons of it. Um I think that probably the first thing that comes to mind, and guys, cut me off anytime, right, and and compliment, but I think trust is the thing that really sticks out. And I think you can break that down into two different components of trust. And so the first one I'd say is more structural. Um, I forget who to give credit, and that's a recurring theme, so I just steal all the credit myself. But somebody said um one of the reasons why the Nordics have been so incredibly successful is that they have so much trust in their institutions. And the way he exemplified that is that in other countries or um citizen sort of places around the world, um, citizens tend to spend a lot of time debating whether or not they're paying the right amount of tax or getting the right kind of health care or if they're standing in the right queue, or if like the system is going to work to their advantage or not. And so like enormous amounts of energy from every single person in society is spent trying to either understand the system or worse still, like game the system. I think in the Nordics, and this is the structural point to trust, like shit works. Our office in Stockholm is in the old IRS building. And I know that because uh we had this person who came to um to w visit us once, and he said that I used to work here and I was a software developer at the local IRS in Sweden, which is called Skat derket. And my job was I walked in here and I was a bit cocky, and I said, Look, I want to make sure that every single Swedish person can pay their taxes, like once a year, by just getting a text message and pressing yes. I can do one click button. And the IRS was like, holy shit, if you can pull that off, that's amazing. And off they went to work, and that's exactly what they did. So for the last 10 years, like I get a text message, I just sort of look at the number, this looks correct, and then I press go. And so I have a huge amount of trust in the system, like from paying my taxes to healthcare to school to benefits. Like Sweden's even, we stand in line. Like, and so I think structural trust just creates so much efficiency because you basically take away millions of hours of debating and bullshit and other stuff. And so everyone just goes all in, and you don't need like we kind of trust agreements as well. And so I don't even have that.
SPEAKER_04So can you can you lean can you lean on that trust as you're scaling outside of Sweden then? Is it something you just take with you for other countries and then anticipate the same level of trust as you're going into new territories and new markets?
SPEAKER_02Um I'd say that the answer is yes and no. Um and I can give the US as a as a concrete example. And so we tried to do the same thing in the US as in lean on the trust model. Um and speaking generally, like it failed uh until we changed the model. And I think that the reason it failed is I think in the Nordics, another thing that we've done well, which is trust, is like we've collectivized risk, right? And so, yes, we pay a fair amount of taxes, but we get so much for that setup. And so if we stumble, if we fall, if our first endeavor fails, so epidemic is my sixth company. Like schooling is free, house care is free, like everything works. So we get a second, third, fourth bite at the apple. And so that allows us to trust the system and off we go. In the US, we learned the hard way that that's not the case. Like if you lose your job, you fall on your face, let alone fall on your ass. And so people aren't incentivized to trust that process. And so they'll tell you what you what they think you want to hear, because if you lose your job, nobody catches you. Like it's a dire situation. And so, no matter how hard we would try to explain that, so tell us the truth rather than what we want to hear, because as long as we know what's going on, we can solve everything. But we couldn't break through. So eventually what we had to do is we had to take a Scandinavian, somebody from the north who we'd work with who knew our system, and we would send them out to different markets. And they could be like the hostage in the US office or in the sort of the French office saying, no, no, no, they're actually not going to fire you. Trust me. Like, I can give my boss bad news, I can call him an idiot and say that he or she is wrong. And look, I I get to live another another day. So you can bring it, but you have to show them that it's for real because a lot of people just don't trust it. I don't know, Sandra, can you relate?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like it is, it's it's exactly the same. Like it's also been the philosophy for flat pay uh ever since going uh outside of Denmark. We've always shipped people from the company that that knows that that's exactly how we want it. Like we want to make sure that people they like we we we we have a saying that like there's an obligation to dissent. Saying like if if you disagree, you you can't leave and then bitch and moan about it afterwards. You have to say it in that meeting and you have to let people know that you disagree. Um and I I think honestly, for the people working uh let's say uh in in Italy or in France, where they are used to let's say steeper organizations, um more politics, uh maybe also more politeness. Um I think it has been uh quite a change for them. Um they definitely like it. Uh I I think the Nordic value is about being included and feel feeling seen. But um I think I I often get the question on like whether that is a Nordic value. I think it's it's a human fundamental uh value, but I think nonetheless it doesn't live to the great extent uh in those uh in those markets. So people are quite surprised um when they feel it. Uh but I feel like it's working uh extremely well.
SPEAKER_04Um what about so so Susanna, you used the word politeness there also. Um and just looking at our own region, did you guys feel the differences between our own our own Nordic countries? I'll maybe I'll start with a funny story that connects to you, Oscar, because uh I met your CFO in Sweden. We were sharing a stage at a at Epicenter, and she came with a blue eye. And I said, Oh my god, what happened? Did your husband beat you up? And she cracked up laughing, saying, That's so funny and so Danish. No Swede will ever ask a person they never met about that before. So so do you see and experience the differences from our Nordic like cultural standpoints from each country?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so the day before yesterday, I was in uh sorry, I'll I'll I'll maybe start with that. Go ahead, the day before yesterday I was in I was in Helsinki, and I I can assure you that the Finns are quite different from the Danes, the the Swedes and the Norwegians as well. And uh Rasmus, my co-founder, he he always uh pulls up the two by two matrix on the on the Nordics, where you have uh you have politeness on on one axis and then you have humor on another axis. And uh we we normally say that the Norwegians they're both funny and polite. Um and and and the Swedes, they're not they're not funny, but but they're very they're very polite. The Danes are rude, but very funny, and the Finns, they're neither, right? So neither funny, neither neither polite.
SPEAKER_04I love that four by four. Yeah, I'm yeah. Do you do you think you have a Danish or Nordic company culture that you're bringing beyond, or or is it built internationally from the get-go?
SPEAKER_01Yes, so I I think to some extent we try to be quite Danish. So even though I I can I can I can be bracking and I can be less less humble, um, I think ultimately I have like quite a low uh ego, and that's also what we try to push down the organization. Uh we try to look for low ego. Um and uh it actually seems like it's it's working it's working fairly well. Then there are like many other places where we are not very Danish or very Nordic. Um for example, we do uh like a very big management team, so it's it's not let's say divided into smaller groups. I don't know if max five people were like reporting to someone. Like we want to try and and and and bring it together. So I think the management team now is like 21 people, so we're 21 people on one call.
SPEAKER_02That's a big management team.
SPEAKER_01Wow, so we like you can't even call it a team, right? But like it's everybody on the same call. We do like one hour, uh, one hour a week. Feedback is given live. Uh of course, if it's very personal feedback, then we which we try to give it separately. But if it's something not working in the country, uh if it's I don't know, ideas, feedback, it's giving live in that meeting in front of everybody. Um, like let's say both ways.
SPEAKER_04Um, and that that's not very Nordic. Yeah, you you didn't want to call it a team, but that la rather large group of people uh is a mix of different nationalities. Yeah, yeah. So so so so the ones that are not from the Nordics or not from Denmark in this example, how do they take the Danish directness?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I I think they have to ease into it, but like typically what will have happened is that they will they will have had some kind of Danish colleague when we opened the market. Uh, it has most often been a Dane that has done that. So they work quite closely with that person and seen how it works before they then take over themselves. Um but like it it it still takes some work to to make them let's say be honest and and and and and more let's say open. If you take an Italian colleague, they they don't want to look stupid uh in in front of other people. Um but we try to teach everybody that it's not you looking stupid, it's just you uh speeding up things, having a shorter way to to take good decisions and getting good health.
SPEAKER_02Collective learning, like in in real time, right? Exactly. So uh can I I can add uh two reflections to that. So one positive, one negative. I think on the positive, I can relate similar to Sander. I think that um Nordic companies very much tend to be uh meritocracies in instead of being hierarchies. And so we often get a lot of shit in the Nordics that were consensus driven, uh, Swedes more than most, I guess. And it it does have its drawbacks. I can get to that later on, especially as the business becomes bigger because it slows people down. But I think that the part which is overlooked, which is a massive positive, is I had all these friends who were investment bankers in London. Um, and over the years they told me that like the Italians would sort of beat their chest and say, like, we're so quick, they get a task, they start running immediately, but then they all sort of in disarray start fighting with each other, the project crashes down, they change direction three, four times, and nothing gets pushed across the line. The Brits and the Americans, they're super hierarchical, and so the boss tells everyone this is the direction we're running to. Everyone knows it's a cliff, but you don't dare say anything because you're gonna get fired. And so everyone just runs off the cliff and salutes. And then the Nordics, they tend to sit in the room and they don't get shit done because everyone debates, and the person who's the boss puts out an idea, and the rest of the team says, Yeah, Ken, that's a shitty idea, but there's 5% which is good in that, and I'll take that and I'll make it 95% better. And everyone debates for like five, 10, 15 minutes, and the feeling is that the tortoise is going nowhere. But then eventually everyone agrees to Sanders' point because the whole group has spoken, like they're not afraid of speaking their mind, and suddenly there's a much better plan than the Italians, the Americans, and the English, and they start running and they get it across the line much quicker than everyone else. And so I think that's an example of where like people ridicule the consensus, but done correctly and managed right, I think you can get outsized returns and it can be very, very fast. So that's like a a beautiful component of us being humble and allowing like the best ideas to win instead of like the highest ranking individual. But then the flip side, and this is a very like personal lived experience, was that our humbleness can somebody sometimes be to our detriment. So in the early days when a pandemic launched, and like this is what, 18 years ago. But back then there was this um in part it was because there was this German company called Rocket Internet, and they made a business out of uh copying uh successful companies and then competing the shit out of them. And so we had as a plan, like, don't do anything. PR. Don't tell anyone what we're doing. Like, let's try and get to critical mass, escape velocity. And we think it's a winner-take most markets. So let's be super humble, like sell down what we're doing, keep a low profile. And so we did it in part for that reason, but we also did it in part because I think Swedes in general and sort of Nordic, I think, are keen to hear your approach here. I love to underpromise and over-deliver. It's just a much more gratifying way to live your life. If you're constantly the other way around, like you feel like an imposter and you're always stressed, and no matter how well you do, like you're you're no one's ever happy. So I was always like, let's underpromise and over-deliver. And so we kept a super low profile. And that in hindsight, I think, was probably the wrong idea because as we started to pick up momentum, like people started to hijack our story, imprinted sort of a picture of who we were, that we were about taking shortcuts and we weren't playing fair because we had such a different approach to the music industry. Like our tactical and strategic advantages of coming outside the system and doing it differently basically got hijacked and sort of it took a long time to try and get rid of that. We were seen as like the smartest guys in the room, but we were sort of too hard of sort of forcing our way forward. And so that's like examples when it works and when it arguably didn't work.
SPEAKER_04Do you think that Nordic mindset um is a can it be a competitive advantage?
SPEAKER_02I think it depends on the macro. I think that for the last 10-15 years, I think it's served at least our company super well. Because you get the meeting, uh, enter the room, people have low expectations, and then you just take them by surprise. It's like when you want to sell an apartment, let's say that there are five components with the apartment which are really great. And the last one is that there's this beautiful balcony that's where you can see the ocean. If you put together the ad, you don't want to put all five in there. Like you rather put three things in there. So people who come to the apartment, they get to feel themselves that you they've uncovered two additional benefits. And so they feel vested. They feel like, wow, I know something that the market doesn't. Our approach and my approach to selling has always been similar. Like if I have three, four great USBs, I'll maybe give two so we get the meeting. But then in the meeting, I'll let people discover and be overwhelmed. They're like, shit, we have to test this product. And so I think that that can be like hugely beneficial.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I think maybe maybe a place where it's not very beneficial is when you're fundraising, right? Because when you when you meet uh American investors that are used to seeing like overly aggressive plans, they will discount you the same level as they will discount that very, very overly aggressive plan. Your plan might be, let's say, even a bit conservative or or just just realistic. But if they're discounting it to the same extent as they're discounting that overly aggressive plan, you you you lose, right? And I think it was actually you who uh at least uh in the in the past can say like dog, like triple, triple, double, double. I and I lots of people have said that before, but I think I heard it from you the first time. And I think Flatpay is a good example of that. So when we put together like together the plan for the seed round, I think we had put into the plan that we were going to be the same number of customers out of 27 that we left 23 with. Right. So like and flat pay was founded in the middle of 22, right? So we thought that like in 27 we would essentially reach the goal that we did in in 23. Um so I think if if I could do something uh let's say over, I would be much more ambitious. Um both on stuff like um let's say traction, uh product roadmap, um, and and like the vision where we have tried to stay humble and realistic.
SPEAKER_04Um I think I have a copy of your very first pitch deck somewhere on my computer, and it's probably the most humble pitch deck I've ever seen. It's like we need a small investment round at a couple of hundred thousand euros, and that will take us five years into operations, and the second year we'll make 1800 clients, and then yeah, one, you do like a gastillion clients and become a unicorn and hire a thousand people. So like the delta between that that humbleness and then what you pull off is shy of impressing.
SPEAKER_01We're probably sweat a bit more like during the fundraising process than the many others, right? And if if we had, let's say, built a more aggressive plan, I think more would have believed that it was uh it was possible.
SPEAKER_04I probably pitched five, six hundred um VCs. I did it in a CRM system in the over the early days, and I recall a specific um US VC who was freaking amazing. They came to Copenhagen on a couple of occasions. I flew out to Palo Alto, and then at the end they said, look, we're not gonna be able to do this investment, but we're gonna give you the full investment analysis we did internally, and we're gonna share it and walk it through with you so you understand why we're not doing it. And they basically said, like in the presentation, yeah, most likely if everything pays off, it's gonna be, you know, north of a billion, that's gonna be super well, but that's not enough for us. Like it needs to get closer to 20 or 50 billion for us to consider it. So it was kind of an eye-opener for, okay, well, if you're going outside of our small, small, humble region here, you really need to um to be a bit more aggressive to wheel in the big dollars.
SPEAKER_02So I think that fundraising is one great example, but I'd I'd also argue like the general pace of things today in an AI world also doesn't land itself super well to be humble. I think that because of the pace of change, like people are announcing stuff that isn't even built yet, like to a much greater extent. So they're sort of selling future promises, huge, future uh sort of token efficacy, future capabilities before they're even launched, just to have a chance to sort of get their message out there because the rate of change is so quick. So I'd say that that's an additional macro, which maybe lends itself less well to the super humble approach, which is again why I think the three of us now, as we run our businesses, are obviously much less humble, much more eager to communicate, so clearer, faster, harder, stronger, as it were.
SPEAKER_04Sandra, you've been rather vocal, political over the last uh couple of months here to the Danish election. Um in regards to both taxation uh as a great example. You think there's how's your view on the challenges that you're facing as trying to scale a business from from from outside of Denmark? And you can talk into you know potential IPOs as well, because Denmark haven't really seen anyone for for many, many years, especially not in technology. So, how's your how's your view on all of those challenges?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so I I think actually uh that like uh my my my my politics uh let's say uh interest um was short-lived. Um like I I normally don't uh engage into in into politics. Uh but like when something is too stupid, I have to uh I have to speak up and I feel like also I'm stupid.
SPEAKER_04I would vote you PM any day. Just go for it. When you're done on flat pay, you go for it. Exactly.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Yeah, no, no. So so I think in general I don't have too many uh opinions on on politics, but I think obviously the IPO market in Europe has has almost uh almost dried out. And let's say the the further we scale uh a company like flat pay, the more likely uh uh let's say an IPO uh becomes, but we're we're also still like less than four years into the journey, and uh we're not let's say spending too much time on that yet, actually, to be honest.
SPEAKER_04What about you, Oscar? You had any uh obstacles of being Swedish besides fundraising and uh and maybe being too humble in the in the in the formative years?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think that um politically, I sort of I don't normally speak to that either. I'd say just two things, like uh friction and incentives. Like get rid of uh friction and align incentives. It's that simple in in in theory, and then in practice, I know it's more difficult, but like friction, allow for people to move to the our part of the world, like make it easy to set up a life fair, set up social security, set up schools, build housing if you're in some capital uh affordable such. And so there are tons of things, and incentives are also sort of around packages and sort of when you pay tax and when you don't, right? Um so those things I'd say are the obvious. But otherwise, I'd say something that we've had to think about a bit. I mean, Copenhagen is such a beautiful place, 24-7. Um, I think we've sometimes had to plan around the seasons because let's be honest, uh, nine months out of 12, like this is an acquired taste. Like it's like it's it's coffee. Like you have to learn to love it. Um, and so if you're looking to attract a global talent pool, you better hustle your ass off as soon as you hit May, June, July, August. That's the only time you can fly people over. And you go, like, yeah, it's like this all the time. Everyone is outside, people sort of uh enjoy themselves. This is amazing, this is what you're buying into. You get them signed off, sort of, and then they move in August, September, and then reality hits in. And so I joke a little bit, right? But um still, it's a bit of an acquired taste. Like Swedes are introvert, it's dark a lot, and so you need to take care of people coming here, making sure that they are in it for the long run. Because I think one of the things which is underlooked or undervalued, but we get from the model is we actually care uh long term about building relationships. And so if you hire the right people and they stick around, like somebody sticking around, learning the business, learning the ropes, like picking up speed, like having them stay, that just compounds because your company becomes so much quicker if you're having to re-hire constantly because people keep on losing moving and you lose them. And so getting people to stick and stay and hiring well and doing that the right time of year, I think that's that's an important, an important hack uh to get them to come.
SPEAKER_01I like crazy um in like in in in many forms.
SPEAKER_04That's also why I you're the personal personalized version of Crazy Sanders. So don't like don't be humble about that. No, and I think like in in Denmark, it's it's not it's not let's say it's not okay to be too crazy, right?
SPEAKER_01That's also why I hate politics, right? They're so polished and they don't ever say their opinion. And like you just can't feel them, right? And I I I like I like crazy. So you don't have too much crazy uh in in Denmark, and I that's actually why sometimes I like to travel to countries like uh Italy and France, because they are just a little more crazy, and of course, obviously in the US, they're even more crazy.
SPEAKER_04Not more crazy than you are, my friend. Like I recall you and I went to a Christmas party uh a couple of months ago where some of the VCs were debating who's the most crazy one. Is it Kenner or is it Sander? I think just from my memory, you took that first prize without competition.
SPEAKER_00Like, I hope like I recall your wife had to come and pick you off because you were pitching investors the day after.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, I don't I'm not sure if that's the truth.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think it was it was it was at this event that uh uh Lars uh Anderson, who's who's an investor in in both of our companies, I tried to teach him this new uh sambuka trick where you you take sambuka into the mouth and then you you light your mouth your mouth on fire and then you close your mouth, right? It's it's uh well you you you actually you light your finger on fire and then you put the finger into your mouth and then you you have fire out of your mouth, right? But but what what but last like but what what last year did he started coughing when he had turned it to like on fire. So he like he was like he was spewing flames. He was a flamethrower, he was a flamethrower, like to to to uh to someone uh at like h S B Z. Um so he he basically spit fire on her uh live at that Christmas party.
SPEAKER_04Sandra thing, every everything is uh correct in that story besides the fact that you you you called it a new sambuka trick. I'm from Slay's a kid, right? So I recall it. Uh so before we just go go nuts on sambuka and um and spitting fire, I I wanted to to chat a bit with you guys about the community in the Nordic region because you're both really experienced founders, and I think um I think in in many ways you also have somewhat of a responsibility in in helping the at a minimum the local community of technology to rising also with everything you've been through and all the all the great experiences you have. So do you how how active are you think both of you are in um in uh in in contributing to the to the local community?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, like I it's I I think for me it's quite simple, right? Um I obviously um like as as you scale a business, as you become more successful, you start getting invited to all sorts of uh random stuff. And I like I I live by the principle that I don't do any events. Um I don't do any uh let's say like public speaking, I don't attend any dinners. I I basically don't do anything else than if it's towards other people trying to build a startup. Like that's the only time when I put time aside, that's the only time when I participate, when all the bangers they want to have dinner, when they want to have me, I don't know, speaking at some kind of corporate event, like I always say no. Um but when it's speaking to fellow startup people, I always attend, or at least try to make time. Uh if people they I don't know, send me an email, reach out on LinkedIn, I um I always try to respond. I don't do any business uh angel investing. I don't feel like I have any alpha. Um but but in in general I try to uh to give back and I I I try to be there.
SPEAKER_04I think I think Sandra, what's great about that is that that's a kind of personal view from your side because going to all of the shit that you just mentioned, I know that for all the dinners, you're sending one of your other co-founders and to all of the events, another co-founder is joining. So that's the that's the positive side of having co-founders in the company that you're building and scaling, which you can divide and conquer. So I've had dinners with Rasmus, and I've like, I've I've seen the two other guys on or a couple of the other co-founders at numerous events. What about you, Oscar?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so I think maybe complementing that, a couple of things come to mind. I think that one of the reasons why I believe the Nordics to be successful is that our home markets are like relatively small, right? And so initially I remember thinking of that as a setback, but over the years I really came to appreciate it because a consequence of having a small home market is that you have to think big from day one, like because you know your home market isn't going to be able to carry your ambition. And so you have to think about exporting the business, exporting your ideas, and going internationally. And so that lends itself super well because if you have to be of that mind, that conviction, there's so many things that you need to learn. And I think that there's this old quote, is it Isaac Newton, who claimed that he was standing on the shoulders of giants? I just I think it's such a beautiful phrase. And so I try and think about that quite often because that's exactly how I feel that we were able to scale. There were great entrepreneurs before us, whether it was Ikea Ing by Camprad or something more recent, like the the team over at Spotify, but they've always been super generous towards myself, like reaching out, helping this small insignificant part of the world, which is the Nordics, to really grow and scale and to be successful. So I've I've I feel as though I'm a small, small chain in this link of people trying to pay it forward, as Sandra's saying. Um, and so that I think is something you should take seriously and put time towards it. I do all the other events as well, like when they make sense. So you need to mix it up a bit, I guess. Or I prioritize that. Sometimes it's a good decision, sometimes maybe not. But I think that also besides events, which is more like one-to-many, I think something which I've always prided myself in doing is I try and do really good intros. So like once a week I'll do a proper intro and spend some time where like somebody's reached out, they need to help, and I'll give them a leg up and I'll do some research and I'll sort of sort of this is Ken, he's great at X, Y, and Z, and then quirky fact, and this is the other person, he or she is great at X, Y, Z, and then quirky fact which happens to tie into you guys, this is something you should talk about. And immediately I feel as though like connecting super smart people, A, makes the world a better place, and B, it makes me look super good because if I can just piggyback on two other great individuals and be the connector, and then that's a beautiful thing. So I think you can you can do it in the small one-on-one or you can do it in the bigger setting. But I definitely see it as being part of a bigger chain where if you're fortunate enough to have the kind of experiences and to some extent successes we have, like you owe it to pay for it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and I think it's a good inspiration to to like, I don't know, future startup founders that like you can almost always reach out to like local founders. Like I I've never I I don't think I can recall a time where I tried to reach out to someone, um, and if if I did my homework, like they all replied. They all came back, they all wanted to speak um and all wanted to help.
SPEAKER_02If you're young and hungry, like you should hunt Sander down, or yourself, Ken, or me. I think it's less about the responsibility of us grey farts, like we should lead more. Day to day is crazy. Like the amount of travel, work, um wreckage we cause to our private lives is quite significant. And so I think I would rather send an encouragement because I'm of the same opinion as Sander. Getting a hold of me is super easy. I can even my phone number is out there, everyone has my emails of LinkedIn, uh, whatever your poison, right?
SPEAKER_04We started this part with me sharing your phone number. So I don't know, the the 48 viewers for this part will all see your phone number.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, which just sort of adds to the list. But that I mean, that's how I would see it. Um what do you guys feel? I w you were super eager to reach out to people. And I mean I think that's kind of like a good test as well. If I think a big part of building companies is willing to um what's the like willing to embarrass yourself, basically, like socially, commercially, financially, like embarrass yourself.
SPEAKER_01I'm an expert on all of the before-mentioned like you you can't be too much up your own ass that you you you're not able to embarrass yourself, right? And like I I like it's maybe it's a crazy part, but like I actually like to be embarrassed, right? And also means that if you like being embarrassed, you you are not embarrassed, right? Then it's just fun or an experience, or like might be a little bit uncomfortable in the beginning. Uh but I think the the only place where I I think that people had an obligation if they've done well, is on the inspiring part, right? I I think we have a problem across the Nordics on maybe people super skilled working in corporate settings, but not let's say being willing to take the risk because they have a house, a car, and a family. Um, and then it can be perceived as a very big risk taking that jump. So I think if we can encourage or inspire people to become founders, to to build their own startup, um, I think that's maybe where where I think we could play a more active role. But I really agree with you, Oscar. I think it's it's on the individual. If you want to get a hold of you, right, you like you need to reach out.
SPEAKER_02Which, again, as we're acknowledging, it's difficult because while you're running at 110, just carving out the time to fly back to Denmark or to Stockholm when you happen to be around the world to give that inspirational talk to a room of people where maybe one or two of 400 might become a founder one day, as opposed to the 10 people who've already started a company and are asking for your help. It's a difficult trade-off, right? So uh but I agree. I think inspiration is important. Uh and again, hopefully the 22 people who watch your podcast here can listen, we might inspire them. But uh that's why you have to do these things.
SPEAKER_04Yeah, look, and and and bringing you two in, I'm sure we're gonna hit 50 viewers or 50 listeners this time. So uh I can't wait for the I can't wait for this going viral. You know, we're probably gonna get five, six likes. So um, but uh, but I think that that I think that's a great um segue into concluding remarks because it was great having you both on. I really uh appreciated the uh the the candid chat. Hope the next time we're gonna do this because we have to do this one more time. It will be in person here in Copenhagen.
SPEAKER_01Likewise, Ken and likewise was good.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, uh likewise, Candice Sander. This was great. Um, and next time I'd I'd love to do this in person. I think that uh those dynamics would be super cool.
SPEAKER_04I'll bring beer, Sander will build bring uh sambuka so we can see this brand new sambuka trick that he just heard of in Slayles. And that uh bring the music.