God Answers in Detail with Mark Holloway

Mark Holloway is back, and this conversation goes even deeper. The New Zealand author of The Freedom Diaries returns to the She Laughs Podcast to tackle the big questions: What have we gotten wrong about God because of religion? How do you actually hear his voice? And what do you do when you doubt?

Mark breaks down how religion has shaped our picture of God in ways that don't line up with the full story of scripture, and why that matters for anyone trying to get close to him. He walks through his method of written conversation with God step by step, addresses the fear of getting it wrong, and talks about how even the strongest believers, John the Baptist included, wrestle with doubt.

This is one of those conversations that will shift something in you.

What we cover:

• What religion has gotten wrong about God and what scripture actually says about his character
• A fresh look at John 3:16 through the original Greek and what it changes
• The theology of penal substitution: what it is, when it started, and why it matters
• How your relationship with your parents shapes your picture of God
• The step-by-step method for having a written conversation with God and what to do when you get stuck
• Why you will doubt what you hear and how to keep going anyway
• What to ask God when you feel far from him or unworthy of his attention
• How the enemy uses shame and distraction to keep you from hearing God's voice
• How Mark reached a vegan skeptic without ever mentioning Christianity
• Why asking and keep asking is the whole thing, Matthew 7:7

Mark's book: 📖 The Freedom Diaries — available wherever books are sold

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Whatever comes into your mind, because you've asked God to put thoughts into your mind, write them down. Now you are gonna think there's no way that was God. When you've written God's answer, you're gonna think there's no way that was God. He's never spoken to me in that much detail. What about all the sin of my life? Who on earth would do I think I am that he would speak that clearly?

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Hey guys, it's Nancy, and welcome to the She Laughs Podcast. Sit down with me while I chat and get personal with some insanely cool women as they share their smarts and their hearts. God gave us each unique gift and we gotta use them. Inside each one of us is a cool girl. So buckle up. Let's get vulnerable, let's get real, and let's laugh. Hi guys, I'm so excited for today's conversation. Our guest is Mark Holloway. And I've had the pleasure of interviewing him before, but he was just so dang good. I had to have him back. And so many of you listeners had told me how much you appreciated his first episode. And I was left with just a couple of questions that I wanted to explore more fully with Mark. But for those of y'all who haven't heard the first episode or who are just, you know, want to hear more, let me remind you a little bit about Mark. He's um from New Zealand, so we get to hear his awesome accent. Um, he's an author whose work has helped so many people think differently about hearing the voice of God. He's best known for his book, The Freedom Diaries. And in the Freedom Diaries, he says that it was born out of a devastating season in his life when he cried out to God and began experiencing what he describes as real conversations with him. He's also written the Cry of the Wounded Land in 11 days. And across his writing, there's just this beautiful thread of honesty, surrender, healing, and what it looks like to move from religion to a true relationship with God. And welcome, Mark. I'm so grateful you're here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 2:12

Whenever I hear your introductions, Nancy, I think, man, I'd like to meet this guy. He sounds so good.

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Well, you're all that, and I just love having you on here because you know, I scroll and see you and stop, but I can't talk to you. So this is just a treasure and a treat for me. Um, but I wanted to ask you, I wanted to start with, I have a few questions, but one question I have is you know, you challenge religion quite a bit, and I know a lot of people do, and I think it keeps a lot of people away from the church. But I'd like to hear from you, what do you think we've gotten wrong about God because of religion?

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Um, well, just you want to walk into this minefield with me, Mark? There you go. Uh okay, so religion. Um uh we have this our whole idea about God has become rule-bound for a lot of us. Not all of us, but a lot of us, right? Um and our whole mission is um to get people saved to get them out of hell. Um, because God's gonna punish them otherwise. Um forever. And and not just punish, but in burning fire, you know?

SPEAKER_00 3:34

Um yeah, big deal punishment.

SPEAKER_02 3:36

Yeah, yeah. Um now um the Bible is an interesting book. Well, collection of books, right? Um you can, I mean, I could you and I could have a very strong argument with each other about any point of scripture, about this one we're talking about now. Yes, God punishes and sends to hell. No, I, you know, we could both argue that all day, very convincingly, and we'd never agree with each other if we were stuck to our point, because we'd be passionately, extremistly devoted to that thing that we need to hold on to. Um, but anyway, religion has taught us that God is essentially angry with us. Um, but then you have Jesus hanging on the cross, right? Um, and and he calls out to God, he says, Father, forgive them, because they don't even know what they're doing, right? So, and we also know that Jesus said, unless he was lying, God forbid, obviously he wasn't, Jesus also said that whatever I ask of the Father, he gives me. So we have to assume that God did that for him right then. So what that means is God the Father forgave them, which might have been just the Pharisees, it might have been all the people, I don't know. It was a group of people, you know, um, some people, maybe 3,000 people, maybe three, I don't know. But um, God knew who he was talking about. God forgave a group of people who had no idea that they'd even sinned. So they weren't going to be confessing it anytime soon. I don't know whether they did or not, but I bet you some of them didn't. Okay. So that means at least in that one case, God forgave some people who did not confess their sin. Much worse they did, well, not much worse, they didn't know it was a sin, but you know what? Sin of sins, they just nailed God to a tree. You know, you can't get much worse than that, actually.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:29

Um, so that in itself, and then see, we've got this Jesus who's not like that anymore. He's watching us, he is watching us, you know, and he's watching us to see if we go wrong, because he's a judge. Now, yes, he is the judge. That's scripturally clear. But what a judge, a judge doesn't have to judge you guilty. A judge has the right to judge you innocent if he so wants to. Now I want to give you Abraham, and Isaac did the same, by the way, his son. Kind of, you know, it's not unusual with human beings that some do what dad did. Um, but Abraham he got up to all sorts of mischief, including giving his wife to another man so that he would be able to continue on doing what he was doing. Um now, the Bible says that God accounted his faith to him as righteousness. Okay. So there's all these kind of scriptures. Now, when I said the Bible's an interesting book and said that we could we could argue with each other. Um I strongly believe, and you know, you my whole thing is to teach people to listen to God. So you can ask God this yourself, but I strongly believe that the Bible is not complete. Now, now that I don't have to believe, it's obvious. The Bible isn't a continuum, uh it's snippets of people's stories and their relationship with or without God and how all that happened, right? Uh now the interesting thing about that is you have to be able to hear the voice of God. You have to be able to talk to the author and hear him speak, otherwise, you're just gonna get completely the wrong impression. I'm gonna I'm gonna throw the cat amongst the pigeons here, but if you ever study Greek, and when I say study, for me study is look at the lexicon, you know. So, um, so any Greek scholars listen to this are gonna think, oh my gosh, you know, um a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, you know. Anyway, here's a verse, one of the best known verses in the New Testament in in Western society, anyway, John 3.16. Okay, for God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever but you know, and so on, right? Um now our impression, correct me if I'm wrong, but I guarantee you that 80% of people that know that verse translate it like this in their mind, roughly. For God so loved the world that even though he was pretty disappointed in us, he sent his son so he could punish him on the cross instead of us. By the way, that little concept there, punish him on the cross, that's a theology called penal substitution. In other words, Jesus was substituted for us. And that's a theology that was not practiced or believed by the early church. It had it started about 300, 350 years ago. So it's a completely new thing.

SPEAKER_00 8:26

Yeah, but you said you said most people think that's how they would translate John 3.16 in their heads when they hear it. You know, when they see football players on the field with those numbers on them, John 3.16. That's what they think. What are you saying? You believe it actually is.

SPEAKER_02 8:44

Okay, good. Yeah, let's keep Mark focused here. Okay. The Greek. Okay. The Greek um says um the word for love. Okay. Um is it a gap? Um, the particular Greek word, and there are a number of Greek words for love, but the Greek word for love in that verse, now when you look at Greek, it's a bit frustrating because it's not like that word definitely means this. It's that word could mean this, or it might be it, might be that. Or you could interpret it like this. So you it kind of leaves the ballpark open. But one of the most favored interpretations of agape in that verse is highly esteemed. So now I'll read the verse to you. For God so highly esteemed the world that he sent his only son, right? Well, well, hang on, God. Now this is a bit different, okay?

SPEAKER_00 9:38

Wow, that's totally, I mean, counterintuitive.

SPEAKER_02 9:43

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

Or at least what I've always thought.

SPEAKER_02 9:45

So what it could I I've got a what if here. What if? See, because we know the Bible says that Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, crucified before the foundation of the world. Okay. So obviously the three of them, the Trinity, sat around and said, okay, you're gonna go and you're gonna be crucified. Are you okay with that? Yeah, I'm okay with that. You know, that I don't know how that went, but there was some sort of conversation like that between Father, Son, and Spirit, right? Now, what if it was like this? They are gonna think, because this is before the foundation of the world, right? Before humans were existed, they are going to think that we don't like them, that we are angry, because they're gonna be imperfect. You know, they're gonna poo and they're gonna wee and they're gonna vomit, and and that's just the physical stuff. They're gonna do all kinds of dumb and stupid things, right? Um, see, we're not like animals. You know, a horse never lies. A horse is just black and white, right? You know, if a if a horse bucks you off, what he's saying is get off. Right? Um, it's kind of black and white, right? For humans, there's all this kind of mess where we're not perfect. So what if they sat around and said, Look, they're not gonna be perfect, they're gonna be mini-versions of us, so they're gonna have all this consciousness and this ability to reason and think through, and they're going to realize that there is there is a God, so they're gonna naturally assume that a God that created them must be perfect. They are not perfect, so he's they're capable of anger, so God must be angry. They're gonna think we're cross, okay?

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Okay, well.

SPEAKER_00 11:19

But instead, what you're saying, he said, so God so highly esteemed the world, yeah, he sent his only son. So because he loved us so much.

SPEAKER_02 11:28

So what if what if they said, okay, tell you what, I know what we'll do to prove that we are not angry, that we actually love? We'll one of us will go and be a human. We will reduce ourselves lower than angels, so that the human race goes, heck, God must really like us. He he came as a human, and not just any human, but the illegitimate son of a woman from the wrong side of the tracks, and otherwise, can any good thing come out of Nazareth? You know, all that stuff. And then they would have said, someone would have, because they had God's got foreknowledge, right? He would have said, Yeah, but they won't be able to cope with it. They're gonna want to kill you. Is that okay? Yes, cool. That will prove that even if you kill me, I will still love you. But we have translated that into, oh my gosh, we killed God. Oh God, oh dear, I'm so sorry. We we should be sorry, but we didn't do it. Okay, someone else did it. Okay. So yeah, religion has has made us rule bound, and we so you know, if you're in a are you from a charismatic background?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

No.

SPEAKER_02 12:34

Okay, so uh what I mean by that is do do you believe that God speaks through people? Prophecy and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Oh, yeah, yeah. I thought it was you meant the people who speak in tongues.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Oh, well, yeah, that's yeah, whatever. But um Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

No, and my people don't do that. But yes, we believe that there were prophets and that people prophesy now today's coming. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:57

So it is a natural assumption. What happens when people get prophesied over is normally they start weeping. Now, one of the reasons for that is they can't believe that God likes them enough to say anything to them, right? Whereas 100%.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yes. I've seen it on a retreat. Yeah, you're exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

So so but who's Jesus hanging out with? He's hanging out with what's clearly most comfortable with prostitutes, thieves, business swindlers, tax, you know, like like the bad guys, right? He just kind of hanging around with them. It was always in trouble with the church over there.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

But you're right, because most, well, I don't want to make that assumption, but there are many people that feel unworthy in general, right? Just unworthy of a lot of things. Yes I I was with a girl the other day that I've always just thought, oh my gosh, she's got it all going on. She's beautiful, she's smart as heck, she's, you know, wonderful husband, cute kids. And she just confided in me. She said, you know, I did this, this, and this. And I said, What made you do all that? She said, Well, I really struggled with unworthiness. And I thought, oh my gosh, if she's struggling, I you know, I know there's got to be other people. And I do think that is why people do have a hard time believing that he will talk to us and that he sent his son for us. And one of the things I wanted to ask you about, I'm going to go off here off-road a little bit with you, is along that note, if you know, somebody said something the other day that their childhood, they just had a really difficult relationship with their parents. And it was, it was traumatic. They had a very trauma-based childhood. And that she thought that was inhibiting her from you know growing close to God, to really taking a leap, to trust him. What do you what do you think about that? Have you ever heard of that? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

Um, most men have difficult relationships with their dads. Right? Yeah, you know, more more than half the men you talk to about how you get on with your dad will not be going, oh, it's amazing. You know, um, they find their dads a bit annoying and you know, all that kind of stuff, right? Um, and whatever they think of their dad, what however that relationship worked, if their dad was a bit heavy on discipline or that absolutely influences their picture of God. God's cross with me. I know I need to improve myself. I know I need to, you know, the damage that we've suffered, and some of what we've suffered from ourselves, some of we've suffered it from others, that totally influences our relationship with Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 15:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 15:49

You know?

SPEAKER_00 15:49

So what do you tell somebody that's coming to you and saying, you know, where can they overcome that? You know, when they're saying, I could because I think they become very performance-based, right? Like you're saying, if it was a very disciplined house. And so they feel like they, oh gosh, God, I should have done this instead, and I did this, and I feel so bad, and I'll never be good in it. I mean, all that stuff. Do you recommend writing all this too?

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Um okay, so I I discovered the conversation with God when my wife left me. Um and uh I've been a Christian since I was 16, and I must have been 52 or something like that then, you know. Um, and we were Christians and we brought our kids up Christians, and uh you know, but I screamed out to God when it happened, as you do. Um, and Claire is a bell, God said, inside of me, I didn't hear it audibly, you did this, which I definitely didn't think was true. And she'll be back. And I didn't think either of those things was true for a minute, you know. Like my wife, she's just not the person to leave. I was so shocked. I was really you know, and I suppose I was your typical blind husband, so I thought I said to God, well, you know, there's two sides to every story, and uh, I've told you this before, but it's important for the for your listeners to hear this again. And God well, so so into my mind came, yes, there are two sides to every story, but we're only going to be talking to you about your side. Well, I thought that I I don't agree with that. That's not me. I did not say that, okay? And it doesn't sound like Satan, it just doesn't have that Satan ring about it at all, you know. Um, so I thought, heck, maybe, maybe that's God. So I assumed that if so I want to believe I wanted to believe that she'd be back. Um, and um I had learned I uh without going into detail, I uh someone taught me, you know, you write down your question and um should we just talk quickly how that's done, or is everybody listening to this?

SPEAKER_00 17:51

No, I'd like us to to go back to that because after our last episode, I did have some questions, I did have people with some questions, and I did two, just a few. Okay. So yeah, let's go back.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

So what you do is, um, and when I heard this, I thought it was complete heresy. I thought, you're kidding me. I've never heard anything so terrible in my life. Um What you do is you write your question to God. So, and it's and it needs to be a question that you care about, you know. Don't ask him about the missionary program for the church unless that really is something that that spins your wheels, you know. Ask him, what am I gonna do about my mum? You know, she's not well, and I don't want to know, I don't know what to do about that guy, you know, something like that. If that's you know, and and uh, you know, most of us um from about 50 onwards, we have those issues. Our parents get old, and my kids are gonna have the same issues too. You know. Um so ask him that. God, what what I I don't know what to do about my mum. I'm worried about her, she drives me mad, can't afford to help her, whatever the issues are, write that down, you know, and then write the beginning of God's sentence for him to speak into. Well, when I heard that, I thought, you what? And no, he's not saying this. You're just writing something for him to speak into. So you might write, uh, Mary Ann, what I'm saying about your mum is. And then you start writing, expecting God to give you the words as you do. Now, whatever comes into your mind, because you've asked God to put thoughts into your mind, write them down. Now, you are gonna think there's no way that was God. When you've written God's answer, you're gonna think there's no way that was God. He's never spoken to me in that much detail. What about all the sin in my life? Who on earth would do I think I am that he would speak that clearly? And I know he doesn't even speak like that to the pastor. I don't know. Well, if he does, the pastor hasn't told me.

SPEAKER_00 19:41

Well, keep with that thought, though, because this is where I get stuck. Because you say Mary Ann had a question about her mom, whatever it is. And so she would start, you know, God, you know, what should no, you start it as a prompt. Mary Ann, what I'm saying you should do with your mom is, and then what? Just kind of go with that because that's where I okay, just start writing.

SPEAKER_02 20:05

Yeah, and okay, okay. So sometimes what you write seems like complete lunacy because it doesn't even make sense. And sometimes what you write, you can't quite believe that it could be God because it must be you just making it up because it's what you want to hear, right? Um, so I I can think of times when, you know, like I wanted to mow the lawns, right? I needed to mow the lawns. Okay, so that's in my mind, okay. And I asked God, I can't remember what the question was, but it certainly wasn't about lawns. Let's just say it was about my business or something. The first word that came into my mind was lawn mower. Okay, and I thought, God, this is just lunacy. Now I'm just going crazy. So I wrote, God, did you just say something about lawn mower? No. So then away, then then now it it kickstarts it. Now, if I said to you, Nancy, I think, I really think, you know, um uh the friend you spoke to last week, I really think that you've got a word from God for her. Okay. And you kind of look at me and go, huh? You know, but you don't want to disrespect me, so you think, oh gosh, well, man. So, and I think you should ring her up and give her the word. Well, you think, I've got no idea what he's even talking about. So you think, and I'm sitting there, go, ring her up. You know, so you ring her up, and as she picks up the phone, you go, Hey, I'm with my colloway. He says it, I've got a word, and you've got it. The word comes. So sometimes physical action, writing stuff down, you know, speaking it out, brings the word. So whatever comes into your mind, you write it, okay, and you go, Okay, God, I asked you to put stuff into my mind about that. That's how the spirit speaks, okay? And I mean any spirit, God is spirit. The Bible makes it very clear that we need to test the spirits because we're listening to the spirit of God, but we need to make sure. Sure that it's not somebody else. That's not the other spirit. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Right. But let's say you do that. Like what I do is what you say is, okay, you know, should I sell the house, Marianne, or whatever? And then he says, Mary Ann, I think, yes, I think you should sell the house. And you told me that, you know, he'll sometimes do pages and pages. And I don't and then I'm like, okay, why? Or what? Or great, that's great. That's what you need to ask. And I don't always, but I don't always get a why, like why I should sell the house or why I should move or why I should, you know, do whatever. And maybe I'm not asking why.

SPEAKER_02 22:41

Well, okay. I'll give you an example. A friend of mine asked God if he could leave his wife. Okay. When he told me this, you know, and I thought, I'll do you. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:54

Well and I said, What did God say? He said, he said, yes. And I thought, you know, I can't argue with that because God even made allowance for divorce. He hates divorce, but he made allowance for it, right? Of course you can leave your wife. I mean that you've got free will. Um it's not a good decision necessarily, but yes, you can. Okay. My wife was with me and she said, Did you ask the next question? Because oh no, I didn't want to ask that. Now, what would the next obvious question be if you didn't have a bias in this? Can I leave my wife? Yes. What's the next question?

SPEAKER_00 23:27

If you're talking to I would say, God, is this really you? That's what I would want to.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Well, let's say you kind of were sure it was him. You know, you met him on the street. God, can I leave my wife? Yeah. Well, my next question but okay, I can, but do you want me to? Of course not. Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

You know, right.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

You know.

SPEAKER_00 23:44

Right. Just because you can doesn't mean you Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Or God might put in your mind, why do you want to?

SPEAKER_03 23:51

Well, because she's terrible and, you know, doesn't love me and blah, blah, blah, blah.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

You know. Um, you know that's true, God. And you know, silence, you know, and you think, oh, because you know, God will also, you know how when you have a conversation with a human, they don't always answer verbally. The look on their face is the answer, right? Okay. And you will sense, you will sense an attitude from God. But listen, yes. So this takes practice, Nancy. Like somebody the other day said to me, I tried this and it was going really well, and then I asked him to tell me what was in some obscure verse. I can't remember what it was, you know, like Genesis.

SPEAKER_00 24:33

Yeah, me too. I did so I did that too.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

Right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Well, I haven't got the faith to ask that. That takes faith, man. That takes real faith. You know, we know that God heals people, but I have never prayed for someone and had them healed. I I don't have that faith. I'm scared of that, you know. I don't have the amount of faith necessary to go, God, tell me what Shakespeare, what the first words Shakespeare ever wrote were. I don't get the faith for that, you know? And I don't even really care about the question, you know? Right. You know? Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 25:04

So um so when you're doing that and you're asking him that, and then you're saying, Is this really you? I believe you do get that sense because I kept asking him the same question over and over for a year because I wanted it to go one way. And he kept saying no. And I was like, but this and that. And I'm telling you, not like some kind of Ouija board where something took my hand, but I was like, you know what? I'm gonna write yes and see what happens to see if this is really you. And I am telling you, I couldn't bring myself to do it. I was like, it was like something in me wouldn't let me.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:43

And I had this sense that he did not, you know? And I was like, whoa. And that's hard when he tells you to, you know, no to something that you think is really good and something that he would really want for you. So when you're writing and you get that and you're doubting, right? Like, is this really you? I had people come to me and say, okay, but I I want to know, like, how do I really know? And what I could only thing I could tell them, which is what I think you're gonna tell me, is you just keep asking him that. And you keep asking the question, thought, is this really you, right? I mean, uh otherwise I'm doing it wrong. But that's what I ask him.

SPEAKER_02 26:28

That's exactly right. That's exactly right. And um, when people, when people get to your stage of this where you're obviously passionate about the whole thing, you couldn't easily walk away from this now, even if you decided it was nonsense. Um by the way, I had a friend who did this, and and she said, I'm gonna stop this. I'm gonna stop it. It's crazy. In fact, I'm gonna become an atheist. Okay, cool. I saw her a couple of weeks later and I said, How's the whole atheism thing going? She said, Terrible, God won't shut up.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Okay, I love that because it's hard. You had said one time, this you said it on an Instagram that I watched. You said, This isn't easy, it takes work and it takes diligence. And to me, it does. You've got to carve out quiet time, you have to quiet yourself, right? And you've got to focus and you've got to make time and and really discipline yourself. But to me, it's like going to the gym. So if you're gonna go to the gym, you know, you can't just go by for 10 minutes and go, okay, I'm so in shape, right? I mean, you really have to invest the time. I mean, clearly a relationship with with God is much better than going to the gym, but it does take effort to do this.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

It does. So um, okay, Jesus in Gethsemane. So we know that Jesus Christ was crucified before the foundation of the world. That the three of them had planned this, you know. Um, a few a few chapters before Gethsemane, and Jesus set his face like a flint to go up to Jerusalem. About the same time, he had a conversation with Moses and Elijah, I think, appeared on the Mount of Transfiguration, right? So it's all starting to, you know, Jesus knows exactly what's happening. Even at the Last Supper, he's going, one of you's gonna betray me. Okay. Um, you know, he's he's prophesying this whole thing. Then he's in Gethsemane and he's going, Um, do we have to go through with this? Now, he knew he planned this before he walked the earth, but now he's going, Am I really hearing this? Like, isn't there a better way?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

Was it so much that he didn't want to? I mean, nobody wants to go through that torture, but I also think it was because he knew that if he took on everybody's sin, there would be a moment where he would be separated from God.

SPEAKER_02 29:01

Well, that's penal substitution, which is a theology that turned up 350 years ago, okay. Before that, it was that God, although we were sinful, okay. So, for instance, if you look at Isaiah, when it talks about um when it prophesies that he's gonna be crucified, okay, it says something like this. We thought he was despised by God, okay? Yeah, no, we we thought he was, but no, he wasn't. Okay. Um, he wasn't. We thought that he he, you know, um the whole idea that God punished Jesus instead of us is a thing that started 350 years ago. It was not held by the early church fathers. Okay, Jesus bore the punishment that mankind gave him to prove that even if you kill me, I'm still committed to you. Okay. That's the Jesus that we believe in. This new Jesus that we've invented that suddenly had a personality change and now he's angry. Where's where's he? You know?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

What are you yeah, okay. So on that vein, you had you said you had a friend who was like, I'm gonna be an atheist, right? But you know, there are a lot of young people that are that don't believe, right? Of course. And and I know that even the strongest believers have doubt at times, right? Of course. What do you tell people to do when that when they're kind of struggling with that doubt? Even for the believers. So maybe the non-believers, how you can talk to them, and then the believers that go through that little faith, you know, fail at times.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

Okay. Um, well, let's deal with the believers. John the Baptist, who is spoken of by Isaiah as the one crying in the wilderness, this is the Messiah. You know, that was his job, right? To tell everybody that this guy is the Messiah. That was his whole ministry. Okay. He sends, once he's in prison and things aren't going so well, okay, he sends his disciples to Jesus to ask, Are you the Messiah? Or should we look for another? Right? Now, Jesus turns to the crowd and he doesn't say, Oh dear, John's lost his faith. He goes, you know what? He basically gives a whole sermon about how John is the most amazing man who's ever lived. Okay. Um so it is perfectly normal. You are trying to hear the voice of a God that you cannot touch, cannot hear audibly, most times anyway, cannot see. Okay. Now, why would God do that? Why why wouldn't God just appear in his majesty and make it clear? Okay. Well, let me tell you, the universe is contained inside of him. So let's say he appeared in all his majesty. Donald Trump would be on his face, ISIS would be on his on their faces. Didn't matter who you are and what you believed, we'd all be on our faces. What else are you gonna do? Okay? God doesn't want that, he wants a relationship. You know? Now, have you noticed when a young dad who's got a a baby, okay? Now, generally a young dad is in his one of he's in his peak physical form. Generally, he's he's big and he's strong, you know, he's young.

SPEAKER_01 32:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:25

If you notice them hold their baby, you'll see them shrinking themselves, kind of reducing themselves down like the uh a father. I've done this with all my five children. I've realized, you know, back when they were babies and I was young, I could harm this, I could, I could throw this child away. I could, I, oh my gosh, this kid's at my mercy. You know, I have to I have to reduce myself down to the level of the child, you know, and that's what God does to us. I think I've got off the point here.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

No, asking you, well, I was asking you about faith for the believer, and you were talking about John the Baptist, but then faith for the unbeliever, who just says, you know, there, I mean, it's all about Santa Claus and the Easter bunny, but they don't believe that there's a God.

SPEAKER_02 33:13

Well, I think look, I think that's a different should we get off? Let's not that's a whole new subject, right? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Um, let's just sit with it. We don't have to go there, but it's helpful, you know, for those of us out there that know people like that. You know, I love the John the Baptist story you just told about how he goes.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Well, okay, I'll tell you what I did then. I had a friend, uh, a friend of my daughter who knew that I wrote books about God, so immediately assumed I was going to try and convert her, um, and uh which I had no interest in doing. Um, God's quite capable of converting you whoever he wants without if if God is actually God, then he doesn't need me to try and bash you into the kingdom, you know? Um so um I knew that she was like a lot of young people are today, a big believer in the universe. Okay, um, whatever that means. Um, and she was a vegan, so strongly vegan that she would ask anybody that would listen, why are you not a vegan? You know, like she was proselytizing and evangelizing veganism, you know? Um so and we got on really well. Um so I said to her one day, I got a thing you should do. Yeah, what's that? I said, ask the universe what it thinks about people who aren't vegans. And she said, How would I do that? I said, well, get out a piece of paper and a pen or do it with your computer and just write your question. Well, what do you think? You know, you think the universe has got a kind of a personality and is capable. Do you sometimes feel that the universe is speaking to you? Yes, she goes, okay. Um, so ask the universe what it thinks of vegans. Okay, because I knew that was a question that mattered to her. And then write the answer that comes. What do you mean the answer that comes? Just start writing and see what happens. Well, and then I said, if and if you think it's happening, ask the universe any other question. Well, I asked her the next day how that went. And she was like, I was as big as sources. I said, show me what you wrote. Well, you can see a lot of people watching now that are probably going to want to start throwing stones at me. But it was God. It was absolutely God. Okay. Um, and this is the thing. God doesn't need to be told that he's God. He knows. He's got no personality problem with, you know, he's he's more than comfortable in his own personality and his own space. If there's a way to get through to somebody, you know, whatever, you know, God will speak. And Paul makes that very clear. The un the universe, the creation makes it, you know, speaks, you know, right?

SPEAKER_00 35:48

But don't you don't you think that a lot of times to get our attention or to get us to know him, um you know, he allows certain things to happen that strip away, you know, things we would normally lean on or people or things instead of him to where we really have no stuff happens, life happens, right?

SPEAKER_02 36:12

Life is never perfect.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:15

And and and it has to be like that. Like you would add a perfect family if you'd been able to um handcuff your sons and um tell them exactly what to do and all that kind of thing. But that wasn't gonna work, right? So you had to let them have their free will, and there were fights, and they were disobedient and dishonest to you, and you got angry with them, and blah, blah, blah, you know? Um so, but hey, look, let's just get back to the thing, the question that people have, which how do I know it's God? Hey, that that's probably the the core question, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 36:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:50

Yeah, okay, yeah. Um well, let me tell you about my life, okay? Um I have to spend because I've decided I want to live a life listening to God's voice, what else is there? You know, I might also I'm either gonna be, you know, being a Christian, being a Christian is a bore if God doesn't speak to you. Like, why would you even do that? You know, I wouldn't waste time that would be. Being an atheistic hedonist would be much more fun, you know. Um, so if I really believe there is a God, which I do, and I want him to speak to me, then my whole focus is on that. And once it's happened a few times, it becomes addictive. It's hard to you just can't can't get away from it. Okay. So my life is like this. I have I'll ask God a question, I ask God about my business, I ask God about my family. See, all of us who work, we either own a business or we work for somebody, right? Um, and it's never perfect, right? So, so and we have lots of questions that we ask ourselves about that. All of us who have a family or who don't have a family, okay, have all kinds of questions about that, about those people, those blimmer nuisance people in my family. Well, you know, I love them and they're not doing anything. Or, you know, God, I need a family, I haven't got one. It's all it's all about that stuff, right? Um, I spend my whole day asking God every possible question that I would normally ask myself. I know it sounds a bit stupid. At first I did it because I wanted to learn on the small things how to hear God's voice. So, you know, when my wife and I were separated, she came back after five years. Um, but and God said she would, you know, and I spent five years telling him he was wrong, and no, she's not coming back. Yes, she is. No, she's not. You know, that we argue it all the time. Anyway, I'd never been to the supermarket more than about twice in my whole married life, and we've been married about 30 years, you know. So suddenly I'm going to the supermarket to feed myself. A very humbling experience for a proud man, you know. Um so I'm and I knew back in my teenage, I knew these crazy Christians who would ask God whether they should eat cabbage or lettuce or whatever, whatever, you know. But now I'm trying to learn to hear God's voice. So I'm practicing on things that nobody's gonna get hurt if I get it wrong. And I would go, God, should I buy chili? Should I put chili in the pie? You know, and I'll be I'd be there rewriting it down, you know.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Um Were you fighting it or were you just pushing the grocery cart and it was in your head?

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Well, sometimes in my head, sometimes I'm having a conversation under my breath and I'm speaking God's words back to myself. Okay. Sometimes I'm thinking the question to God and I'm thinking his answer back. Right. Not waiting for it to arrive. I start thinking it. Okay. God submits himself to us to the point where he allows us to speak his words. Now, most of us are comfortable with speaking his words to someone else. We're just very nervous about the idea of speaking his words to ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Yes. Do you think fear blocks people from hearing from God?

SPEAKER_02 40:05

Sorry, say that again.

SPEAKER_00 40:06

Do you think that fear blocks people from yes? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:12

Um, we're afraid that we get it wrong. What if I get this wrong? I'll be a false prophet. I'll be, I'll be allowing the enemy to talk, I'll be listening to the devil, you know, all that kind of stuff, right? Of course, and that is possible. That's why you have to ask and ask again. Okay. So I'd go, okay, so what, so, you know, and I'd go, okay, God is what about this chili? Is this any good? Okay. Um, now I'll tell you how stupid, but not stupid, this is. If you see a young couple in love at the supermarket, you can tell what's happening. At the chili or the spices rack, she's going, What do you reckon about this? And he's going, I saw on YouTube that that really is a is a blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're totally into the conversation, right? Because in love. Okay. You see an old guy my age and he's pushing the cart, and his poor old wife, she's a she's quicking, and he's kind of somewhere else, and you know, okay, right? So, so when I used to go to the supermarket with God, I could go, right, well, I don't know if I love you or not, God, but I'm listening to your voice. And by the way, you can't have a relationship with anybody without conversation. It just isn't possible. Otherwise, it's infatuation. I mean, I think Mick Jagger and Bob Dylan are just amazing artists, but I haven't got a relationship with them.

SPEAKER_00 41:30

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:30

You know, I I I'm I'm infatuated musically with them, but no, they don't know I exist.

SPEAKER_00 41:38

If you're in the car or at home with your family or a friend, and you talk the whole time, and you don't listen for what they have to say back. That's not a relationship. No. Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:51

So so in Christianity, we would hear 1% of the time we would hear what God was saying, and 99% of the time and hear what we're saying. Okay. And that's because condemnation, the accuser of the brethren, has told us that we are too sinful to hear God's voice. Okay. And that's a normal, you know, I often I give this picture to people. Dad's been away on a on a business trip and he's he's home. You know he's home tonight. You're a kid, you come up the drive, you can see dad's silhouette in the kitchen, he's talking to mum. You're like, oh, dad's here. And you run across the drive, you throw your school bag out, you know. I don't care whether he's got a present for me or not, I'm gonna leap into his arms, all that stuff. So, you know, and your big brother steps into your field of vision and goes, Wait till he hears what you did to Lucy's bike. Okay, right, and everything crumbles to a halt. Dad's come out of the kitchen, he's seen you running across the drive, he's getting ready for the embrace, and then suddenly you stop, and he wonders, what's wrong? Okay, because your big brother's lie has convinced you that God won't want to talk to you. And that's what Satan does to you. Wait till he hears what you've done.

SPEAKER_00 43:08

I also think he tells not just that we are not worthy of hearing from him, but also I think he can get in there and say, you know, that's not make you doubt that you are hearing from him when you always he will.

SPEAKER_02 43:25

So my okay, back to what I was saying about my life. I'm asking them about everything, and I'm having to go, God, did you really say that? You know, well, now I'll give you an example, Nancy. You're in sales, right? Still in sales, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 43:38

So your whole income depends on your effort. You haven't got a said income, I'm I'm assuming. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. So you might say to him, God, how am I gonna do this year? I bet you have wondered that yourself. If you haven't asked him, you you certainly thought it, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:53

Thousand percent, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Yeah. How how how am I gonna go? So then you write down, it's gonna be a fantastic year. And you go, No, God. No, no, that's just me. That's what I want to hear. What are you because we think God's definitely going to say it's going to be a crap year, Nancy, and I'm just, you know, it's about time, blah, blah. Right? But when I hear when that happens to me, I go, God, okay, so should I do such and such this week with my clients? You know, is it going to go well? You know? And let's say I hear, don't always, but let's say here, I write down, yes, it's going to be good. And you should just stick with your plan. Okay. I don't go, amen. I go, God, is that really you? I write down, God, I don't know. It just doesn't sound right. Last week wasn't a very good week. Why, why would this be any better? You know? I'm worried about this, God. Then I write the answer. You should stop worrying, Mark. I go, God, but I am worried.

SPEAKER_03 44:41

And I write that down, you know?

SPEAKER_02 44:43

Um, you know, like, yeah, you, I mean, I bet you hear, now that you're doing this, I bet you hear repetitive things like I always hear Mark relax. Okay. And I go, why? Have I got a health problem? Okay. You know, like is at my age, you know, people have heart attacks and stuff, you know? They go, Am I gonna have a heart attack, God? No, you're not, Mark. You're in perfect health. But you need to relax. Why do I need to relax? Because if you need, if you relax, you'll be able to see the issues far more clearly. And you're good, Mark, but you'll be better if you relax. No, I'm not very good, God. I don't believe that. You are very good, you know, and so on. That's what my conversations are like. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 45:22

You see, I think then I should not be asking, or we should not be asking so many yes or no, right? Like, is all this gonna be okay? Is everything gonna be okay? And I could be yes, Nancy, everything's going to be okay. I mean, let's say how how would I take it the next step, right? Like, what would the next step to that be?

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Okay, all right. So now this is a bit of a per my wife's conversations with God are about a quarter as long as mine.

SPEAKER_00 45:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 45:49

Okay. So my personality is I'm always suspicious and cynical, which is why I'm very good in sales and also in um in interviewing people because I'm hunting for the next. I'm so I interrogate God. Okay. Now, if that worries you, the Bible says the kingdom of heaven is taken by force and violent men, and it doesn't mean naughty violent men, it means men and women who are committed to getting right to the heart of it and going, God, I need to know what's going on here. Okay. Um, and religion has taught us we're not allowed to do that, but Peter did it all the time.

unknown 46:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

Well, I do that. I'll say, well, how do I know this is you? And how do I know it's gonna be okay? Right. So you've That's what I'm telling you. And but I also think I need I want more information. So what I need to be doing, what I'm hearing is saying, okay, well, how? How is this gonna work out?

SPEAKER_02 46:48

Right? So, okay, so I already I had a bit of an advantage that I already did this in my business. It was a system that I taught my staff. When you're dealing with a client, ask the next obvious question. Now they would say to me, their obvious question to me was, Well, what's the next obvious question? Okay, so you will know what's next, what's obvious to you, what the thing that enters your head, the but what about? The the what about that comes into your head? Okay. Now that's why when my wife said to the guy who asked about his wife and should he leave, did you ask the next question? He knew exactly what she meant because that had occurred to him, but oh shoot, I wonder if I meant to. Not gonna ask. Right. Okay, don't want to know the answer to that one. I interrogate God. So I will say, is this week gonna go well, God, with those clients? Should I talk to those clients? And let's say I hear that it's going to go well, okay? I'll then say, I don't think that's you, God. After I exhaust that after about, you know, five or ten times saying, I don't think that's you, and yes, it is, I don't think it is, yes it is. I'll try another one. I'll go, so I've asked, is this gonna go well? And he said yes, right? So I'll go, I know what God this week isn't gonna go well, is it? Okay, you know, so I I'm trying to, I'm I'm like the the investigative journalist with God. I'm trying to, I'm basically I'm not trying to trick God, I'm trying to trick me because it's I know that God is infallible and never lies. Okay, but I know that I could get it wrong.

SPEAKER_00 48:17

You're like turning it upside down and inside out, yeah. Just making sure. But what if I get an I don't know? That's from me, right? Because God knows. God knows. I go, God, I don't know. And I'm I go, okay, that's not you, that's me.

SPEAKER_02 48:30

Well, what I do is, God, did you just say I don't know? Oh, okay. Okay. But here's another thing, you know, I used to I'd go like God, um, I'm going to business in Auckland, which is a city two hours away from where I used to live. Should I go that way? Yes. Right. Then I go, hang on. Should I go that way? Yes. Okay, obviously I'm not hearing you, God. Okay. Then I would think, hang on, hang on, hang on. Are you telling me that either way is fine? Yeah. Yeah. Well, but do you have a preference? Now this will really rock your boat. Okay. God will come back to you and say, My preference is whatever you want. No, God, no, no, no, no, no. That's not how it works. You are the boss, God. No, no, no, no. Clearly, I am the boss, but Mark, let's look at your life. You are allowed to be the boss. Otherwise, you'd be on your face and you know, blah, blah, blah. You know, I'm not the ogre you think I am. Make a choice. No, God, I want you to tell me. Is there a is one way better? So, all of this you learn about the nature and character of God. That's how you learn, that's how you fall in love with someone, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:31

Right.

SPEAKER_02 49:32

First it's infatuation. Oh, you know, oh my heart, whenever I'm around him, he's so amazing, blah, blah, blah. Um, then when you start talking to them, you realize either, ooh, no, no, he's not a good guy after all at all. Um, or after lots and lots of conversation, something goes click and you know that you're beyond repair. Oh my god, I'm in love. You know, and it's during the discussion, isn't it? It's and it can be the silliest thing he just said, you know, but it bang, and that's what happens with God. You will so so here's the thing the the major problem or barrier to hearing God's voice is the enemy not wanting you to hear the God's voice. Okay. So the enemy will be telling you, you're too sinful. What about what you did yesterday? You know, the yada yada yada yada yada.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

I think he also brings distractions to come.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 50:25

Like phone rings or doorbell, you know, whatever. Or you're like, oh my gosh, I never got to that client. Let me, I'll do it later. That kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 50:33

It's much easier to be a Christian, read your Bible, pray when you normally pray, go to church, and not hear God's voice. It's just simple. It's just just much easier. Okay. And the devil doesn't worry about you too much when you're like that. You're under his control. Okay. But the moment you put your hand up and say, I want to know what God thinks, the enemy's gets somebody on her right now, okay, because you're getting caused trouble now. When God's voice starts getting heard about the place, all kinds of crazy stuff happens, you know, people get healed, etc. Your life changes.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Um okay, so for the woman who feels far from God, you know, or unsure if she can even hear him, where does she start?

SPEAKER_02 51:18

God, I don't think I can even hear you. Either writing it or typing it, okay. I don't even think I can even hear you. I just think other people might be able to hear you. Whatever. Just pour your heart out, okay? And then go, okay, God, now I'm gonna start writing this crazy idea that you might speak back. I'm gonna start writing and see what happens. Lucy, what I'm saying to you about all that is. And I betcha, many, many people who do that, the next thing you know, their heads are weeping because God just said something to them. And it'll be here's a thing to ask if you want to keep it simple. God, what do you think of me?

SPEAKER_03 51:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 51:58

Because most of us, most of us think he's a little unhappy.

SPEAKER_00 52:03

For sure. Yeah, for sure. We think we fall so short of the mark.

SPEAKER_02 52:06

Yeah. So what if God says, well, Lucy, what I'm saying about that is I like you. Well, God, I know you love us all, but you know what about my son Lucy? I said, I like you. That'll undo you, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah, why do you like me? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:21

No, I don't even think he would stop there, though. I think.

SPEAKER_02 52:24

No, he wouldn't. Why do you like me? Where do I start? I like this, I like that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 52:30

Well, this is helpful for me because I've been doing this now a while and it's transformational for sure. But I I think the next step after he answers your question, like, should I move? Should I, you know, take this job, should I be friends with this person, whatever it is, then say, okay, but why?

SPEAKER_02 52:51

Yeah or What's the next step or how? Or you know the next obvious question for you.

SPEAKER_00 52:58

That okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:00

That you would ask if he was sitting across the table for you, you know, Jesus comes to live at Nancy's place, and after all the media hype dies down and everyone's got used to the fact that Jesus Christ of Nazareth's got come again, is living at Nancy's place. You're gonna ask him questions, you know?

SPEAKER_01 53:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:16

Uh now you need to go, eh? You need to stop the snow thing. Um but I'll give you an example. Okay, my daughter, who's now a surgeon, but when she was five, I used to make TV ads, and she came with me to make a TV ad, and the client was on the production set.

unknown 53:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 53:33

And uh he's a nice guy, and he was quite friendly to her, you know, and a bit cheeky, and she was cheeky back. And one of the my staff said to her, My daughter's name's Rossi, Rossi, do you know who this man is? And she sort of looked quizzically at him and he said, Well, Rossi, I suppose I'm God. You know, and he know he just meant like, you know, he's the client, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:54

Right.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

And she looked at him and said, Why did you make snakes? Now, kids don't have the fear of she knew it wasn't God, but she, you know what I mean? Like, isn't that a question you would ask God if you were a five-year-old kid? You know? It's it's a kid's version of why is there suffering in the world?

SPEAKER_00 54:13

Yes, you know?

SPEAKER_02 54:15

So ask God the questions, be brave.

unknown 54:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

What's the worst that's gonna happen? You're gonna get it wrong. God, look, if I get this wrong, please tell me. And and you know, I'll be a disciplined Christian and repent and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 54:30

Whatever you're scared what he's gonna say, because it might be hard, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

Yeah, it might be, and you've got to take that. But I've been doing this for 15 years, and I think about twice I've heard something that I didn't want to do.

SPEAKER_00 54:44

Okay. And did you do it?

SPEAKER_02 54:46

Yeah, okay, because it's I didn't want to do it. Pardon? Was it hard? Uh not nearly as hard as I thought it was gonna be. Okay. But for instance, you're in sales, right? So one of the things in sales is we have to ring people that we don't really want to ring and they don't want to talk to us. Okay. You know, I have to ring that client again. Oh, they'll be sick of me, God. Uh you know, right. You know, should I call Jim and Steve and Bruce today, God? And you're kind of hoping God goes, nah, look, give it a break, you know? And God goes, well, to achieve your goals, you're gonna need to. Oh, really, God? Well, Mark, do it, see what happens. You know, he's not like, do it, he's not Hitler, he's Jesus Christ, you know.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

Um, yeah, that's helpful. Okay, and then I my last question, I think I know how you're gonna answer this, but I'm not sure. Is there, you know, how many days a week? How many is there something that you I know? See, I know. I'm such I get a syllabus and I'm serious about it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 55:48

Okay, so people say to me, is it okay to do it in writing it, or can I do it on my phone? Yeah, you know, I'll can't I am gonna answer your question. I always say when I'm speaking to churches, look, if you want to scratch it in your arm and blood with a key, you can. It's up to you, you know. Like it'll be painful, but it will work. Um, there are no rules.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

That's what I I knew you were gonna say that.

SPEAKER_02 56:09

I just had so so um I used to do it all by hand in a book, right? And then one day I'm in the garden and I know that God said to me, You should you should type it. Now I'm a very fast typist. I can I can touch type as fast as I can think, you know? Um and I I argue with God out loud. I'm in the garden by myself, no one's there. God, you didn't just say that, yes, I did. No, no, if I do it in if I do it in typing, God, I can type too quickly, you won't be able to speak, you know? Fast enough. Try me, Mark. Okay? Um so I'm I'm worried about this all day. You know, this is when I was separated from my wife, no kids at home, so I'm all by myself. So I can't put it off any longer. I sit down that night and I start typing. Well, changed my life. Now, what is typing any better than writing? No. Mark just needed to be snapped out of he was starting to create a religion about handwriting, his own little his own little religion. So um I personally like to get up at half a six um and be having a conversation with God in the morning by about seven. But that just suits me.

SPEAKER_00 57:21

For me too.

SPEAKER_02 57:22

Some sometimes I you know, something will happen, I don't know, go on holiday. Occasionally it'll be a few days, and I won't have had a conversation with God in writing. And I'll sit down and I'll start, oh God, I'm sorry, and go, sorry about what? Well, haven't can can we just drop that? Let's talk. You know, and see, and and believe me, when I hear that stuff, now I'm used to it, but when I first used to hear that, oh be God, that is not you. You don't talk like that. You're God. I'm the simple one. Because we are comfortable with the Satan's accusations that we are bad, you know, the people who do best at the gym, I don't mean the ones build the most muscles. I mean the people that stay healthy are the ones who go there happy. They're not trying to prove to the world that no pain, no gain. They're not doing that. They're just going and staying active. The people who live the longest in the world are not the people that bust their asses at the gym. Okay, right. They just lead a they just need a bit of exercise, a bit of thinking. Uh, you know, uh they're not self-condeming, and somehow if I punish myself enough, God will like me. Or or or hate me less or something.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Gosh, that's so good. I mean, it's so good for the perfectionist to not be able to do that.

SPEAKER_02 58:39

Yes, but but here's the key thing ask and keep on asking. It doesn't matter. You just need if if it matters to you to hear God's voice and you're not sure, and will you be a hundred percent sure ever? No. No, you won't. How can you be? You're listening to the voice of a God you can't see, hear, or touch. How do you know? How do you know that that man loves you? Well, he, you know, he does this. So you can do that without loving. Yeah, yeah, but he does this. Well, well, how do you know it's not an act? If I spent a day with you being Satan about your relationship with some man, you would completely doubt the whole thing by the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 59:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

Okay, you have to trust, you have to believe. Has God said that? So, how do I know just about pretty sure think I think I know that God has said a thing when I begin to feel the peace inside of me that says it seems crazy, but I think that's God. But God, is it okay that I ask you about this tomorrow? Of course it is. Great. I love to talk. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

I like that, knowing that you feel the peace inside of you. Yeah. I I ask Godometer, decision maker. You know, I've learned to dis when I make decisions to feel that, right? And don't go the other direction if it doesn't have the same piece.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

When when I get a big thing from God, like change jobs or buy a house or, you know, the big stuff, right? Um, I'll ask God that question every day for ages. Are you sure about that, God? I think you said that, but is that right? Am I doing the right thing here? You know, again and again and again.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:17

Yeah. Okay. That's so good. Thank you, Mark. This is amazing. Uh so the thrust of all of this is just to keep asking.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Yeah. Matthew 7, 7, ask and keep on asking. He's not talking about written conversations there. He's just talking about the basic principle with him. Ask and keep on asking.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:37

Okay. So good. Thank you for being here today. I just, I just love it. I could sit here all day and talk to you about this. It's just so great. Um, thank you for making time and for all the logistics with the time zone. That was uh that was hard. So thanks for hanging in there for us to figure that out.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:57

Oh, good. It's great to talk.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:58

Okay, thank you. Guys, thanks for being here today, and we'll see you next time on the She Laughs Podcast. Thanks so much for listening to She Laughs. If this episode encouraged you, would you share it with a friend who might need a little courage or a reminder that she's not alone? Every share helps more women find their inner cool girl and pick fear to the curve. You can find links to our guests, watch full episodes on YouTube, and connect with me on social at She Laughs Podcast Official. All in the show notes. And remember, the dream inside of you means something. Take the first step. Be brave. God's got you fast. And girl, you've got that.