EP19: Defining Success

Back in the day, “success” was defined as going to college, buying a house, getting married, and popping out a few kids…but what does success look like for artists in late-stage capitalism? Are you still successful even if you don’t make any money at it? This week Vanessa and Mimi tackle redefining what it means to be an accomplished artist in a world that is constantly trying to fit us in a status quo. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hello. I'm Vanessa Simone.

SPEAKER_02 0:05

And I'm Mimi Hayes.

SPEAKER_01 0:06

And we are the Girls Nextboard.

SPEAKER_02 0:09

You got the giggles today, do you?

SPEAKER_00 0:11

I sure do. Oh, I saw the record and I thought, oh wait, yeah, we're about to say something ready. Here we go. We're doing a podcast. We're doing it. It's been a couple weeks since we've recorded, so we're getting back into the mojo.

SPEAKER_02 0:28

Um awesome. So today's episode, I think, is gonna be really good. Um, we're talking about defining success as a creative.

SPEAKER_01 0:38

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Something I struggle with.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

I think we all struggle with this insurmountably. I don't know if that word is used in the proper way.

SPEAKER_02 0:48

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 0:49

But we, especially as creatives, because it's our our passion, our thing that we love doing and we want to be able to do it every day. And because of this capitalistic society, we feel as though it's only successful if we're making if it's it's funding our entire life and we're wealthy and we are of the fame and all of that.

SPEAKER_02 1:15

So if you feel like you're not the one percent, then you're a total failure.

SPEAKER_01 1:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19

Um, I was talking about this with my therapist today, and I was like, I feel like if I was 10 years older, I would be like a bit more successful. Like maybe I wouldn't be like totally in the clear, maybe I'd still be stressed about finances. But when I think about like even we moved to New York City in 2017 and 2018, before the pandemic, we had like two, three years of like pre-pandemic time to be artists, yeah. And then everything fundamentally changed, and it's never been completely changed.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:51

So I'm like, oh, if I if I could have moved to New York City in like 2010, you know, in my early 20s, uh instead I was graduating high school, you know, in 2010. But like I thought about that and I was like, I don't know, maybe that's not true. Um, but it's hard to say because we were taught like by 30, you should have a uh college degree that is gonna pay off in a big way, and you're gonna not have debt, and you're gonna buy a house and you're gonna be married and have a couple kids, and like everything's shiny in roses, and you're financially stable, and you're good, and you're pretty solid in your career.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

So, like, even if you have kids, you're still okay because your career that you were striving toward in your 20s has paid off, and that's simply just not the case.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

I don't know. I know like one person living that life, and they're still stressed, you know, on like dual income or one income, like as a family. Um you know, it's not all that's cracked up to be either. Like these these pillars of so-called success that we were taught, like divorce rates, hello, so high. Um nobody can afford to buy a house, even the wealthy people, like I mean, the market is so crazy. So it's like if you define success as only those things, you're gonna be feeling really shitty about yourself because you don't have those things. I think for women, especially too, we're told like you better get those babies out into a world. Those babies. And so if you're not doing that, does that make you any less of a person? Like, absolutely not, but you're told that you kind of are.

SPEAKER_01 3:37

You're told that you are, and I it's so interesting because I will say that in my 20s versus my 30s, my perspective has changed dramatically on that because in my 20s, I really did think I was gonna be the woman who woman who was a wife had probably five kids. I thought I was gonna have five kids by now because five. Now, as a 35-year-old, I am really looking at success in a completely different way, but I'm also I'm looking at it in a different way in turn when it comes to the romantic side and those things, because I actually don't know that I really want to be married, to be honest. Um, I enjoy the life that I have right now. It's not a conventional life by any means because I think the way that I date is very different, but also I think where I struggle with success as a creative is kind of like what we were talking about. I feel like I should have been like a famous person now. I've been going at like content creation and stuff for years, and in many people's eyes, it wouldn't be seen as successful. I'm very, I'm not very consistent. I'm great at starting something, but I'm not good at finishing something. And I, because I'm not where I want to be, for instance, I thought I'd be in maybe movies now or maybe being a singer. I still don't even know what I want to do. And because I'm 35 and still don't even know really what I want to do, that to me has felt like a failure. And I also feel as though I put too much pressure on the art that I do because I love making videos online. I love what we're doing right now, podcasting. I love doing it. And I realized this week actually that I was putting a way too much pressure on my creativity. And I've been actually reading Big Magic, which uh Mimi has recommended, which I have right here. But in the book, she basically talks about how a lot of creatives we tend to put so much stress on our creativity for it to be our source of income, our thing that makes us survive and thrive in this world financially, that we actually forget the craft itself. And so it was kind of a wake-up call for me because I feel like because I'm not where I want to be as a content creator, as a digital creative, I was putting so much pressure on this must become my job because I'm in a in a I'm trying to transition out of my job right now. And so I'm I'm thinking, I must make this work, like this has to work because I want this to be my income. But by doing that, I've really lost sight of why I enjoy making videos in the first place. And the reason why I love making videos is because I truly feel I can be myself and connect with people who are similar to me who don't really think, I really don't think like the normal person. I don't think like the status quo, and I want to be able to connect with other people who think differently that way. And I love just making videos, voicing my opinions and the things that my brain thinks, because I think that the way that I think is very different from a lot of what people, most people think, and I want to find that tribe to be able to connect with them. And also it's just so much fun for me, but I lost sight of that in the moment of trying to make this oh, this must be a full-time thing. I must be getting paid from this, I must be getting brand deals and this and that. And I kind of lost, I really did lose sight of it. And so in the book of Big Magic, she Elizabeth Gilbert, she talks about how she made a vow to herself when she was 16 years old that she promised to herself that she would write every single day, no matter what. And she has kept that vow to this day, and she writes every single day, whether it's 15 minutes, could be several hours, whatever, but she has kept that promise to herself because she's and I love that she made this promise to herself to get back to the creating, and that's what she's making herself define as success. Um, and so that was kind of a wake-up call for me. And so for me, I I thought, okay, I need to start, I need to make a vow to myself to always pursue the story, pursue the story, to live the story, embody the story, and to always think about a story in some way. So that was very helpful for me. But what are you thinking about, Mimi?

SPEAKER_02 8:23

What are you thinking about?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

I went through a lot, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:28

I love listening to you talk. I love and I love that you're reading the book. Um, it's one of my favorite books and changed how I thought about creativity as well. Um, you know, I really struggle with success because I also put a lot of pressure on myself. And I was telling my therapist today, like, I really don't think the things I've done are big deals anymore. Like in the moment when they happen, huge deal. Like, oh my god, I'm a published author, I'm doing a TED talk, I'm doing a one-woman show. Like in the moment when I'm living in the moment, I know it's a big deal. And then it's like the second it's over, there's all this pressure to be like, well, all right, well, nobody really came to the show. There's like five people in the audience, or like, well, nobody really saw the TED Talk. Like, only like 50,000 people saw it. Like, that's not enough. Like, it's not a million, like, and they're all negative comments anyway. And nobody really cares about my book anymore because it was published in 2018 by a small press and it's not a bestseller, and nobody cares. And this just insidious, like, it's like this demon is on my back and it was like you like, please get off. And I I can't help it. I I she was asking me where do you think this comes from? I'm like, I really don't know, except for maybe that, like in my household as a kid, A, I was not validated as an artist. So it was always like that's a hobby, that's not a real career choice that you could have. So go ahead and do your little kids' plays and do your little theater stuff, but that's that's as far as it's gonna go for you. That's not gonna ever make you any money, or you're never gonna be able to live off of that. And so there's also that pressure of like feeling like it's impossible and having these big dreams. Like my therapist is like, when is it gonna be enough? And I'm like, maybe when I get an Oscar, like maybe when I'm on the stage doing my acceptance speech, like maybe, but then again, maybe not, because if I if I know this about myself and I'm constantly wanting to outdo myself, then what's stopping me then from when I get the Oscar going, yeah, but I don't have a I don't have a Grammy yet, and I don't have a and I'm still not a bestseller, and I'm still not this, and I'm still not that, and it's just this toxic, never-ending cycle of negativity. And I hate that because I feel like my brand is a very positive person. Like I'm very friendly, I'm very outgoing, but what's going on under the surface is absolute chaos. And you know, here's a great example of like it changed my perspective a lot too. I have a new client, and first of all, this new client I pitched and do um a new uh service to, and I I charged a lot more than I ever would have before. I was encouraged by our friend Liz to up my prices and my services to attract shout out Liz um to attract the kind of client that I wanted to get. I got this new client who was paying me what I asked for. And it was our second session, and I went over to her house last night, and uh she bought my book last week. So she bought my book and she Venmoed me and I signed it for her, and you know, again, I'm thinking it's not a big deal, whatever, like read my book, you know. It's old news. Um, and I'm sitting down in her house and she's like making me tea and she's bringing me cookies, and she's like, I've been reading your book, and I'm not gonna lie, I feel like I'm sitting next to a celebrity. And I was like, shut up. You know, and so there's part of me that's like immediately wants to write that off, but there's this part of me too that's like she has a point. You know, she looks up to me, she wants to be a published author, you know, she wants to have her name on a book, and I have my name on a book, you know, and when you think about it that way, it does start making some space to redefine success. Because there's a lot of people that look at the things I've done and they're like, oh God, if I could only do a smidge of what she's accomplished, you know. And they may never do that because they may not have the confidence, they may not have the resources or the opportunities that I have, they may not be in the right place at the right time or have the right finances. Like, there's a million different things keeping people from achieving their dreams, you know. So I'm really reckoning with that and trying to redefine success for myself so I can stop being such a negative Nancy.

SPEAKER_01 12:43

You know, I mean, I really do appreciate your honesty because I think that resonates with so many people. Because we want we truly, when is it enough? And it's almost like you have we have to get so ingrained in our art and our creativity that us by doing the art and being creative, learning that that in and of itself is successful, but that's really difficult in a society that doesn't define what you love as quote unquote success. And we have to basically, like you said, us both of us growing up with a more creative brain and more creative endeavors that we love, being told that you're not, you know, this is not what makes you a career, like this can't be a career, and having to unlearn that, but also to learn that your art, whether it is seen or whether it is being viewed or whether it's not, is still important and is still vital for our existence and for our soul to become alive and for our for us to as human beings, but it is really difficult when to undefine that and really redefine our art by do be doing the art itself and being in love with the art as successful, you know. It's really difficult to do that.

SPEAKER_02 14:08

Yeah, it's yeah, there's just so many thoughts that come up for me, they're intrusive thoughts, yeah, you know, that like when someone's talking about me and my success, I'm like, that's a lie. It's crazy. I know, I know it's crazy. And it's like someone the other day, I was sitting with this guy um who is in publishing and works with authors, and he's like, I've never had a call with someone who's written two books before. And I was like, Oh, yeah. Does it count that the second one no one's seen yet? Yes, it counts. I wrote a I've written two books.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

Yes, you've written two.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

I'm 34 years old, I've written two books.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

I've 35, I've written zero. So, you know, it's so interesting. It counts, it fucking counts.

SPEAKER_02 14:56

But you know, I have to almost like rewire, or like maybe I need one of those rubber bands on my wrist, and every time I do a negative thought, I need to like zap myself. Yeah, I don't know what I need, but it's like so pervasive in my mind, and I know that that's super relatable to so many artists. And I want to go back to like the the money thing too, because we're in end stage capitalism, and the truth of the matter is very few of us artists are working full-time as artists through our art, is our income. And I think Elizabeth Gilbert even says it, like, she's you know, all these artists are like, Don't quit your day job. And it's like that can be discouraging, but it can also take the pressure off to be like, my art, my writing has to make me a million dollars and make me have rent payments and pay my bills. If you take that pressure off, it's like, oh, it's it's for me. I can make money in these other ways. I teach little kids theater, you know, like a couple times a week. It's not my passion. The kids are cute sometimes when they don't piss me off, you know, and they're running around, you know, misbehaving. But I don't need to like that's not my passion. Like, I can just make money doing that. I can just get a paycheck. It's just a paycheck. And I can get my money from elsewhere until the point where my art can flourish on its own and be a full-time gig. And I think that's a harsh reality for a lot of us, is even like working actors, like celebrity actors. Um, oh god, it was Michael B Jordan. Michael B. Jordan. And he couldn't get jobs, he could not get a job. He was in LA, he was already famous and that people recognized him, but he could not get gigs, and he was walking around town trying to get jobs at like Jack in the Box.

SPEAKER_00 16:50

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

When he like put in his resume, and they're like, Michael B. Jordan, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_01 16:54

They're like, What are you doing? You don't need this job. They're thinking that it's a joke, and he's genuinely saying, actually, no, I really need this job. I need money.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

And they he couldn't get it, and then he finally landed, you know, was it Fruitville Station or something? I can't remember. One of his big, big movies that kind of broke him out. But um, you know, it's a harsh reality that like it is a harsh reality, but you are right, because even me, I work as a trainer for engineers.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

I don't, it's not my favorite, honestly. But what I will say is a lot, because because I love making videos on the internet, I have the freedom to talk about whatever I want to talk about because I'm not tied to a job like my because my social media isn't tied to me having to rely on my social media to make money, I could be more political. And I am more, I try to be a little bit more outspoken on the issues that I care about. Whereas people who are what I would consider light years ahead of me in that space, they have to kind of stop talking about their things that they care about because brands don't want to be, they want to be middle of the ground, they don't want to be left or right. And I'm like, my views are my views, take it or leave it. And I will say that in one way, that is a way that my art and the way that I speak in videos is freeing because I can say whatever I want, and there's nothing, I'm not relying on brands or companies to funnel through my social media in order for me to get paid, because I get paid elsewhere. And so, in a way, it's freeing uh because my art can kind of take a chill pill and I can truly be who I want because I'm not relying on, oh gosh, if I say this and then this brand sees that I'm more affiliated this way, they're not gonna work with me, or I but I really need that paycheck because I don't need that paycheck because I have my other job. So I don't know, but it's a hard balance though, because I really want to love my daytime job too, you know, and I wanna it's hard because as artists, we want, I think there's a few things that tie into it. Number one, we grew up, especially in America in our school system. I think the way we were taught in school is you're rewarded with an A, right? The teacher is almost like the authority that allows you to pass. And in our art today, I think the reason why so many of us can define our art as quote unquote successful or not by making money or by being famous is because that visibility, it's almost like we've been taught that there's an authority that has to approve of your success instead of us being the ones to approve it from the get-go. Because I, if I were in elementary school and doing whatever subject and it was more you don't get a grade, but hey, you tried and you put your thought into it and it was different, and you pass because of me. I think if we were taught more in that way without this feedback loop of these are the people who define success, because I mean, I know we've talked about so many times you're like you wanting to get your second book published, but it's like the gatekeepers hold the quote unquote success, or they're the ones, the publishers are the ones who define who's successful, who gets published, who's good enough for this and that. And that's frustrating because that's just so frustrating.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Yeah. And I will say on the education piece, I do hear about more alternative schools popping up where kids are in nature, kids are, you know, not on devices, kids are making art. You know, it's these kind of alternative school models that I think are becoming a bit more mainstream now, um, that are less tied to that, yes, like, you know, do this grade, get this grade, get passed through, go to the next thing, pass that, past that, past that. And that's that mentality that keeps us on this little hamster wheel of these expectations, the status quo. And I I think the non-conventional life is becoming a lot more acceptable now. It used to be, and we were talking about this in book club today. Like, if you were over 30 and you didn't have children like 20 years ago, you're a pariah. You were like, Oh, I'm so sad for this. Like, even my aunt never had kids, and she was so happy, but I feel like people talked about her like she was not fulfilled in life, or that she was off her rocker. And I still hear my mom sometimes, you know, talk, well, she never did have children. And I'm like, good for them. Yeah, good for them. They don't have to. That's not a pillar of success anymore. It's harder and harder to do, and it's not a good fit for most people anymore. And so, you know, just thinking outside the box and being like, you know, my unconscious. Conventional weird life is not that weird. I think sometimes the weird life is the people that do exactly what they're expected to do. What they've been told. They've been told to do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

They're living the status quo to the T. They've been done everything they've been told to do. And I just don't vibe with that. I just don't. You and I are very opposite. And it's it's hard to because we're almost as artists trying to conform into a system that is so pre-molded and pre-determined that being anything outside of that realm is is it's just seen as bizarre.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

Which all artists have had to contend with. You think about like Shakespeare and like, you know, all these old writers and all these people that are long gone. But like when they were alive in their time making art, they were outcasts. They were like, people thought they were delusional and crazy and mentally ill, and like, you know, we've always struggled to fit into society because society is so limiting and we're so creative. We have these different ways of thinking and being. And you know, I think you're right that sometimes if you do get lucky that your art can make you money, you have limitations now because you're in the system. Yeah. So I heard of an author this way too. Um, I met this author so many years ago, and he'd written a book that had been made into a movie, and it was about zombies. It was like warm bodies or something that was and he'd written the book that got adapted into that film. And I looked at this guy and I was like, he's the most successful author I've ever heard of. He's had a book published with a main publisher, and he's got a screen adaptation. He was the pillar of success to me. Guess how unhappy he was? Because he was under contract to write two more zombie books, and he didn't want to. He didn't want to. He was like, I would rather die and become a zombie than write one more zombie book. Like, I don't want to. And he he had to because he was under these constraints of being within this, you know, this system. So, in a lot of ways, we're lucky that we're not in the system that we have the freedom that we do have right now. And, you know, I felt those restrictions too when I was with a publisher, you know, not getting my cover the way I wanted it to, feeling like the way that they um positioned the words on the page was weird, like they formatted it weird. Like I had all these like thoughts and feelings about how they put the book out, and they were not listened to. They were not like, okay, you're right, let's give you paragraph indentation. Like they weren't listening to me. Like they were doing what they thought was best, what they thought was the best thing for my book, and they put it out there. And I was like, that's not good enough. You know, I had all these stipulations. So, in a lot of ways, self-publishing would be good for me because I could do however the hell I wanted it to. I could make it exactly the way I my perfectionist heart would be like in you know, bliss. Like I could just make everything the way I wanted it to be.

SPEAKER_01 25:05

With on your own terms and on my own terms.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

So, you know, that's something to think about too is um just making it to make it. You know, we talked about that earlier, like the joy of making it, reminding yourself like the process, the the creative process itself is the prize, is the treat. Yeah, you know, and so many people don't get to experience that because they tap themselves out, they just take themselves totally out of it because oh, I can't make money at that, I can't do this, I can't do that. I'm not good enough. You know, but that's the making. I made a collage today uh on FaceTime with the girls during book club. We were all doing crafts during talking about the book and doing crafts. And um, I just had a great time. I just love making collages. It's just inside my own notebook, no one's gonna see it. I mean, I put it on my Instagram story and I said, look at this, you guys. But you know, no one's paying me for that, no one's giving me money to put that in an art gallery. It's just for me. It's just because I like doing it, because it makes me happy. And so if you can reconnect with that in some way, you take the pressure off to be this, you know, mainstream famous artist. It's just do the art, just do the project.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Just do the art and fall in love with the art. And I think this is a perfect time to go into how do you think maybe you're going to change your definition of success for you? And I'm gonna do the same for myself.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

I think it's not about how marketable or mainstream successful it is. It's not about how many people have seen it or bought it. It's not about the reviews, it's not about the trolls, it's not about, you know, it going viral or not viral. It's the fact that I did it and that I put my thoughts onto the page, or I put my film into the world, or I made that collage with my hands. It's the fact that I'm doing it. I'm the artist behind the art. And I'm proud of that. I'm proud of the writer that I am, I'm proud of the director and filmmaker that I am, I'm proud of doing the things I'm doing. And I don't need to do anything more. I've already won. You know, I've already won. So I've done so many things that so many people could only dream of doing. And as have you, you know, and so when you try to reconnect to that, like truly appreciate what's already been done and how hard you work to do it. Um that's my new version of success, is just I did it. It's me behind the writing, me, me and the page. And I enjoy that. What about you?

SPEAKER_01 28:05

Good. Yeah, I think mine is just to fall in love with the art again, or just whenever you fall in love with the art, just make that the subject of focus, the process of loving, the process of doing, like you said, kind of put it out into the ether. Put it out into the ether and enjoy the process of doing it, but know that you did it. And I think that that will be helpful for me.

SPEAKER_02 28:35

Mm-hmm. Here's another question, too, that's yeah, bouncing around in my head. Do you think little Vanessa would be proud of you?

SPEAKER_01 28:42

I don't think so, actually. Not right now.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Really?

SPEAKER_01 28:46

I think no, not yet, because I think little Vanessa, I think she was really proud when she was in New York doing her stuff and she was just doing it, right? And I feel like I've kind of taken a hiatus from doing the things that I love doing. So I think little Vanessa's going to be proud again when she's when I'm get back into the ring again and go back into just creating. Well, she's proud of like when I do podcasts, and whenever I'm doing anything that's for me and truly for the little girl who was expressive and before the world told her, shut your face, shut down, you know. I think that whenever I'm doing those things, then she's very proud.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:31

You know, thanks for your honesty. Yeah. I think that's a hard place to be. Because you're like, I know that I can do more. Yes. I know that I've seen it. Yes. Seen myself at the peak.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

I've seen myself.

SPEAKER_02 29:45

And I've and I've felt my little self be like, wow, she's so cool. You know, and I I'm I'm kind of right there with you. Um, I think little me too is like, go easier on yourself, you know, like please, like just take it, take a chill pill. I need to take a chill pill. Um, you need to get back in the arena. Get back into, you know, so both of our little little people are like rallying behind us. Um, but that's a good question to ask yourself. You know, if you're if you're trying to define success, what would a younger version of you think about you today? And are you there yet? Are you close? Were you there at some point in the past? Are you trying to get back to that version of yourself? Um, and what have you done so far that little me was like, oh, that is the coolest thing you could have ever done. So I think about that too.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Nailed it another great episode. And so you guys have a lot to think about, but we are the girls next board.

SPEAKER_00 30:46

Bye.