Are we hiding behind Bible studies and calling it discipleship?

BRAVE is about hard conversations in light of rescuing girls from the enemy's grip. Where and how we have these conversations matters and Amber wrestles with the idea that we might be missing the mark on what discipleship is.  This is only part of the conversation to help uncover where we could build better bridges to the next generation of women.  Discipleship is hard and messy and that may be why many of us aren't doing it.  Let's talk about it. 

Welcome to the BRAVE pod

Where we have conversations that matter to grow a task force that fights against the spiritual trafficking of our girls. We are Bold Redeemed Anointed Victorious and Eternal and it’s race against the enemy for her heart. The time is now to go on the Great Rescue, I am your host Amber Johns, let’s talk about it. 

Transcript

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I think I've been really wrestling with this word. And it's discipleship. And that might seem silly. I don't know. I uh I've been like reading about I've probably read, I don't know, maybe ten books, and I'm not joking, in regard to like discipleship or discipleship essentials or the church and discipleship, uh, one-on-one. I mean so so many things, including going back through, you know, the New Testament and just reading and going over and over and like what did it look like? How did Jesus disciple? I think we know those answers. I understand clearly, I understand the basics. And so I think what I'm what I'm wrestling with, and here's this is one, if I go back through my 47 years of life, discipleship wasn't a word I heard very often until much, much later. That could just be my memory. So let's let's face it, I have memory, I could have memory loss on that. I don't remember it being a word used, I don't remember it being something that was necessarily taught in the vein of using that word. And not saying it wasn't. I just remember when it kind of became the the thing to talk about. Um, I would say even later in life, and of course, now seven and a half years into full-time ministry, the word is used probably daily in different contexts and planning strategies and purpose, right? I mean, that's life now. So I just but here's my wrestle. As I as I've been working on stuff for brave, and my heart is discipleship. I have grown to absolutely love small, one-on-one, two-on-one, getting deep into somebody's life and encouraging their walk with Jesus. And it it fills my heart, it fills my soul. I feel like God has given me a heart for that. I don't want to think or say or have anybody believe that that was my heart for most of my life. I'm sad that it wasn't, but here we are now. So looking forward. But here's where the the wrestle is, because I'm looking for and watching and being like, who's doing it well? Like who right now, and I'm talking about women because that's where I'm at mostly, is just serving and teaching uh younger women, older women, just girls in general, um, who's doing it well. Like, what are we doing? And discipleship, it seems to be a term that nobody defines the same way when I just be like, hey, when you're discipling, and so you hear all good things. Nobody's like, I'm not saying anybody's wrong. So I'm trying to figure out what is it. I have all definitions, I have textbook definitions, biblical definitions, even people who have like, this is how you know I've done it, and I'm I'm still like, okay, who's doing it well, especially inside the church? Like, let's let's even just start there, the the typical local church. And now I want to, so here's my wrestle is like, are we considering our Bible studies discipleship? Is that discipleship? Um, or is that Bible study in partnership with are we um, you know, are we considering youth group discipleship? Are we considering just small group where we get together and you know, we're talking about life, we're challenging each other in scripture. Is is that discipleship? Or are those things all partners of a much deeper, more intense thing? That's my word. That's thing. Um, and so I don't know. So I'm that's my wrestle. I don't, I don't even come on here with this idea that I have a great answer, and maybe you do, and somebody can write to me and be like, let me settle your brain down. Here's here's what discipleship is. Again, I can give, I can give a textbook answer, and I think there's levels of, I think there's a process to a discipleship relationship. But when I look when I look through scripture, and then I read even just anybody who is much smarter and much wiser and much more theologically deep than me, discipleship is a very intense, messy, like you know, demands so much time relationship that you can only possibly disciple two to three people at a time, depending if if that were truly, if if our definition was like life on life, pursuing them, pouring into them, they're in your daily life or weekly life, your your heart for them can't be stopped. And I don't know if I've I see a lot of that, and maybe it's just because people aren't like, oh yeah, hey, here's my here's my disciple, here's who I'm discipling. But I will say off like, hey, you know, as people are talking and we're sharing things, I'm like, who are you discipling? I rarely get like a clear-cut answer to that. Where, you know, if I'm like, hey, hey dear friend, we're talking, I'm like, yeah, who are who are you discipling? And there's not a couple of names they're whipping off real quick. I don't know. Like, and so part of me is what if we're missing it? Like, what if because discipleship is possibly the the crux to survival of the Christian female? Um, are we missing it? Because we do go to conferences, we do have Bible studies, we we are in church with them, we're sending them maybe to to youth group or awana, and that those things are good things. But the deep stuff comes in deep relationships. So, for instance, a small group of five, I might not share what I need to share in a group of five women for whatever reason. But you might get to my heart or I might get to your heart way deeper when I it's just you and me riding in a car or sitting in a coffee shop or just spending a morning together. But that takes time, and I would say most of us, you know, if you don't have a full-time family at home, you might have a full-time job, you might be involved in a thousand other things that are like I I'm just so busy, and I think that's cultural. I think that's we we do that to ourselves, and so I I look at you know women with small children, and they're like, How could I possibly? And then those children get bigger, and you get two or three kids in every activity known to man because they're social. My kids do the same thing, so you don't have time then, and then they become adults, and so you have other things that you're doing, and then you're busy again, and then you're also dealing with adult children problems, right? So, are we ever in this sweet spot of life where like, okay, now it's time to disciple, now it's time to pour out. I don't know. I I do know, I do know the answer. I don't know the the ways to encourage the ways that it looks, um, especially in Western culture where we're very segregated and private, um, outside of different, I mean, the Western hemisphere and the eastern hemisphere clearly very different. So we are in a culture where I think it makes it very difficult to share life with each other outside of the people that maybe that it naturally happened. You know, we were running in the same circles, or we go to the same church, and those friendships have organically kind of evolved and they're amazing and wonderful. So I go back to what does discipleship look like in the church? And you know, you're in Titus, and like the older women are to be teaching the younger women, and in order to be pouring into them, and like, here's how we love our husbands, and here's how we I don't know, make sourdough. I'm just kidding. I don't know how to make sourdough. Um, I know how to coach a soccer game. Does that matter? But I I say all this is how do we do this? I'm not sure we I have seen yet. That's not true. I have seen a couple instances, but overall, in the big scheme of big big church, little church, how are we doing with the discipleship? And I don't, I don't, I don't know. So I'm I'm really wrestling with like what does it look like? Because with Brave, right? My my goal, my heart is that we're discipling so well that we can have these really hard conversations that maybe the big church, you know, the pastor on Sunday morning, he can't address these because it just it wouldn't work. I don't know. Um, it wouldn't be appropriate. But I look at that and it's like we have girls, young women, just on the struggle bus dealing with life. Um, and they can go to a Bible study and they can dissect the scripture and they can answer the hard questions and they can say, Yeah, you know, like I'm tired and I'm sleep deprived, or whatever they need to say. We can be at the conference and be fed and be like, yeah, that's great. And then we have to go back to Monday and live life again. And so are we missing the opportunity as older women and and middle-aged women and then young women to be like, yeah, but what's going on beneath that surface? What's going on really? What is your fear? What is your tug of war? What is your, you know, is there something in your past that you're just not letting go of? Is there shame? Is there like, I don't know. I mean, we're working on right now sexual abuse, and why why didn't you ever tell anybody and what that was looking like for them? And so in those conversations, I'm like, did you not have a safe person? Did you not have somebody in the is in the church, especially where you're like, I need to talk, I need to tell you this. Um, and that worries me a little bit because some of the pushback I get with some of the conversations that I encourage when you're discipling young women is is well, is that appropriate for me? I can't answer that. Um I say yes to all of it because I want to have those hard conversations. I might not have all the answers, but if I'm a safe space for someone to land, I want that. And I have to create that. And I also have to search it out too. Um, there's a there's two ends to this discipleship process. One, if you want it, you might have to go find it. You might actually have to be really weird about it and just go up to somebody and be like, I need I need a mentor, I need a discipleship person. Will you do that? Um, and then as the older person, you might actually have to go seek that person out. And it seems uncomfortable and it seems weird, and I think just embrace it. I'm I'm digging deep into all of this to say, where are we having those really vulnerable conversations? And I'm actually gonna do another part on this because I was listening to a podcast and it was really good. It was talking about transparency versus vulnerability. And so I'm really digging into that one because I loved I loved what she had to say. I think there's more to there's a deeper uh conversation on that. So I want to save that for a different time, but I I think we lack a little bit of transparency at the very least in in our churches and in our communities. I think we're fearful of inviting someone into our lives to the extent where they're just with us. They're seeing the messy, they're seeing the chaos, they're seeing the fact that we don't have it all together, but man, we're trying to love Jesus and love others. Um, we we shy away from the fact that there might be hard conversations in regards to bumping up against biblical truth. I don't know. Um, so maybe you can wrestle with me in what that what that should be looking like and how because what I don't want to do is just be like, here's all the things we're doing wrong. We're not doing it. I want to build this bridge, I want to be an encouragement, I want to say the the most fruitful, the most beautiful, the most powerful, the most soul-filling conversations have never been in front of a conference, um, in front of a group, in front of a staff at big leadership things. Every single time, every single time, they've been almost always now one-on-one, sitting with a girl, walking her through whatever it is she needs to be walked through. Sometimes it's just knowing Jesus, sometimes they don't even know Jesus. So leading her into faith of Jesus Christ, I mean, there's no better conversation than that one. Nothing more soul-filling than being like, hey, for this period of time, you're on you're just on my heart. And I I have learned this in praying for. Uh I always recommend the Bo Chansey book, Pray for One, because I just don't think God will be like, yeah, nah, you don't need anyone. Pray for One. I think I've learned to understand when God has impressed somebody on my heart. And I won't know why. It'll it maybe even see I, but it just, you know, it's happened over the past couple months. There's just this girl, and ever since I met her from day one, I've just she's captured my attention. Don't know why. And I see many of them in my uh in my journeys, and so and I just I was immediately, I don't want to say attracted, that's a weird word to use, but immediately like she was something to me. And like I I couldn't explain why, but I've learned that God has pressed people in my heart, like she just popped out of the crowd. Um, and in that vein, I've made an effort to get to know her, to invite her, to pray over her. Sometimes I do think that God is just like this is this is the one for now. It could be a three-month thing, and then he moves her on. It could be a three-year thing, and until God releases me from her and moves her or moves me, I've learned to obey that call. And I think sometimes, maybe in this discipleship process, because it's so nuanced, because it's not a three-part series, it's not a you know, a 10-week plan, it's not a, hey, this is what it looks like for you, and it's gonna look exactly the same for you, because there's not that like what we all think, like you know, highly structured strategy, maybe not that there aren't some amazing strategies to lead to discipleship relationships, but because I do believe it has to be so Holy Spirit-led that you just know, but we have to be open to it. And so I think maybe that's part of the problem is not a problem. Some of the obstacles we face is we don't even think to be praying for one, we don't even think about the spiritual orphans that are milling around in our backyard. Um, we think missions so big, we think missions far away, and we we need those too. So please don't hear what I'm not saying. But for most of us, as we plant in our backyards, as we live in our communities and in our churches, I don't know if we are, I would even say aggressively searching for inserting our lives into somebody else, because I think some of that is why would they want to hang out with me? Why would they want to be around me? And here's the funny story: it's not about me, it's about them and the pouring into them. And it's sometimes it's received, sometimes it's not, sometimes you make the effort, and whatever you say, it just falls on deaf ears. And I will say this I do think because discipleship can be really messy, it can be really hurtful. I mean, there have been times where you know, pouring into somebody, sharing, you know, your home with them and meals with them and hard conversations, they start to know your life. They know some of maybe even my insecurities or my issues, and you've allowed them to see you, to see this space, and then something happens and there's a I don't know, a divide, or they walk away, or they make a decision in life that they know is not uh biblical, and they know you're gonna stand firm on your biblical view, and so they turn on you. That's very real, and that's very hurtful, and so I think that there can be a fear of rejection in all of this. Um I think we have to be okay with that. I think we have to be so secure in our identity in Christ and our mission that we're okay, that if we get hurt, and it does hurt, that we did what God called us to do. We answered the call for whomever He put in front of us. But some of us have our eyes closed so tight to that that we're like, there's nobody. There's nobody, I mean, I don't know who I would even reach, I don't know where I would go. I would, I would dare say if you prayed, show me where to go, show me who to see, I think I would answer that prayer. I think we hesitate in that obedience. So again, I go back to these conversations and and what we're doing at Brave, it's really to just burst open these conversations and to go deeper than what we're doing right now, to create girls that know how to fight, have the language that they need to use, that they're so secure in their identity in Christ, that that actually means something. That because they're known by you and me, they feel known by Jesus. And we can bridge that gap for them as they grow, as they learn, as they mature. And even for those who are mature, that we, those of you who are 10 years older, that you're like, look at I'm here for you, I'm praying for you. Most of the time, you probably understand what they're going through, whether it be in parenting or you know, maybe something's going on in their church, and you can be like, hey, been there, walked through that. Maybe there's just an internal struggle of fear and shame and doubt. Maybe there's something they've never shared with anyone else, but because you came along, you listened, they share it with you. And it's the first time they spoke those words to you, to anybody, and you can love like Jesus. I think we're for the most part missing that piece, and from that piece, right, then we have these other places of Bible study and small group conferences, all good, all to help us grow, all to give us a bigger view of the body of Christ. But this part, this this intimate part, this costly, you know, not only emotionally, but this time, I call it a time suck. Like it takes so much time. And for me, I don't know about you, that's a huge, that's a huge pull for me. Giving up time to spend with somebody when I could be at home reading a book or not talking to anybody. Um, I know everybody jokes, but just the introvert in me, man, I can I can stay home days in a row and I'm okay. Uh, I know not everybody operates that way, but so I don't know if you would just if you have ideas and you want to write in and share with me like where you have seen it work or you know somebody who is a great multiplication of disciples as a as a woman in the church or in your community, I would love to talk to them because I would just love to see how they're doing it. Um, especially if they're not in full-time ministry, especially if they're you know stay-at-home mom or if they're homeschooling or they work in corporate or they teach. I would love to know what discipleship looks like in real time and glean from that because I I went to teach it, and this is what I went to teach it. I was I had a workshop all scheduled, and I I have the right content. I I know it, I believe in it, I know this is what God has created me to write. But this was I didn't know how to, and I didn't feel good about it, so I stopped. We postponed the workshop because there's this still this piece that I'm like, I'm not sure the conversation is solid enough. And uh again, I don't want to waste anybody's time. So I'm I'm digging deep into this. Um, I'm bringing back out the books that I've read and going right back through, you know, Jesus' time on earth, acts, like you know, even just the relationships in the New Testament as they're raising up the church and they're they're multiplying the church and how that fits into a mom with three kids in youth sports. I don't, I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna find a way. Um, and I'm just Spending time with God on it because I do think I do think we've lost some of that. Not because any of us want to, it's just life has happened and culture and environment and just the way we live here in the United States, too, doesn't necessarily or even come close to promoting those kinds of relationships unless we're super intentional. Almost sometimes strategic. And I hate to use that word when you're like, but I do believe the Holy Spirit guides us to be like, I think you're gonna have to be intentional and strategic to make this work, to make sure you're a part of a discipleship relationship in any form. Um, so I don't know. So we're gonna, I'm gonna wrestle with this a little bit. But if you, if you've got it and you're like, look at this is how I've seen it work, this is the church I'm a part of, or this woman, she has been discipling women for years. And by that I mean there is fruit of her labor where the women she's discipled, there's they're out there now doing the same thing. They're out there now doing the same, you know, they're they're engaging women and girls. They're making sure that they feel seen, known, and heard so that they have earned the right to speak into their life and share Jesus with them and and deal with the dark stuff and also celebrate the good stuff. I mean, there's so much beauty in these relationships, but they are hard and they can be awkward at first, and but they have to be intentional because rarely, and I haven't said it hasn't happened, rarely has a discipleship relationship just fallen in my lap where I'm like, oh, there you are, like let's do this. It's been intentional, it's always in the back of my brain as I'm speaking or talking or engaging and getting out into the world and just being, you know, who who I am and letting God lead the way and not closing down when I realize there's opportunity. So yeah, feel free to join the ride with me. But that is brave. Um, that is why I feel like the whole thing is having conversations that matter. Um, because I it is a war and it is a fight, and I think we have to dig deeper and go a little harder and go on the offense rather than constantly playing defense of what the culture offers up, and then we have to bat it away. I think we can, I think we can go on the attack. I think we can pick up the the temp pack and hammer, judges for case anybody's wondering. I think we need to learn how to go against what is coming after our girls instead of waiting and then playing defense for them or wondering what happened to them. The culture is loud, there's strong voices. I think we need that too. I know we need that too. I want help. I want to, I don't always know what I'm doing. So I just feel like here's the next thing, and I try to do it. Here's the next thing and I try to do it. Um, and allowing God to use how He made me to help the body of Christ rise up. And I just keep coming back to is discipleship, what it should be. Not only in our local churches, but in the big church, across the across the country, across the globe. Are we missing it? Because this is the hard thing, this is the deep thing, and this is the uncomfortable thing. So, yeah, feel free um to contact me and be like, you either had the same struggle or push back on what I'm saying. Um, but this might be the layer that really catapults and I think allows this next generation, whatever generation that might be, to rise up and realize, yeah, it might not be the conferences that are getting us going. It's the two or three people that don't get noticed, that maybe nobody will ever know that you're a part of their life. And that's okay, because what's done in these quiet spaces is you almost always the sweetest, the most powerful. And that is how Jesus ministered to his closest, his 12, his three, his one. Um, and so yeah, walk with me on this. Uh, feel free to give me resources that you feel will be helpful um as we try to break this down for uh women in the church. All right, until next time. See you later.