Searching vs. Meeting Yourself as a Solo Traveler

I'm sharing a conversation from Kellie Stirling's podcast Talkin About Midlife where I'm visiting as a guest rather than a solo host or interviewer. We started from the very beginning: Saint Lucia at birth, Canada at 12, then India for my first teaching job, then Sudan, Japan, and finally Prague, where I've been for thirteen years. 

Somewhere in all of that, a Sufi teacher in India said something to me in my mid-twenties that's still relevant to me and an important reminder more than twenty years later. It directly connects to one of my key ideas these days: there is a real difference between searching for yourself and meeting yourself.

In this episode:

• Saint Lucia to Prague
• The Sufi teacher's reading
• Training the nervous system abroad
• Searching vs. meeting yourself
• Midlife, identity, and new roles
• 20% more enjoyment

This episode is for you if:

• You've been traveling for years and still feel like you're looking for something, and you're not sure whether you're going toward it or away from it
• You're a woman over 40 who wants to hear the full long version of how someone became a solo traveler, not the edited highlight version where it all clicked one afternoon
• You want to understand what actually separates intentional solo travel from just going somewhere alone, because you've been wondering if you're doing it right
• You've heard of the RAIN meditation but never heard someone describe using it while buried in fermented rice sand in Japan, with cotton balls in their ears

Free Resources:

• Damianne's free guide to start solo travel
• Decide Your Trip workshop to figure out your first or next solo trip

Meet Kellie Stirling:

Kellie is the host of Talkin About Midlife, a podcast about life, health, love, relationships, the inner world, aging, and what it means to be human in a female body at this time in life. Kellie is also a somatic experiencing practitioner. Find her show wherever you listen to podcasts. Learn more about her podcast and follow at https://www.kelliestirling.com/podcasts


About Freedom Looks Like This:

Freedom Looks Like This is a podcast for women over 40 who want to travel solo, or who already do, and want to go deeper. Host Damianne President explores self-trust, decision-making, and what it actually takes to stop waiting and start moving. New episodes every Tuesday. For solo female travelers, midlife women, and anyone who suspects that the real barrier isn't logistics.

Email: contact@changesbigandsmall.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I have a special treat for you today. I'm sharing a conversation I had on Kelly Sterling's podcast talking about midlife. She interviewed me about how I became a solo traveler, and I wanted to bring it to you because the difference between escaping yourself and meeting yourself has been on my mind a lot lately. And we go into it in a way that I really haven't discussed yet on this podcast. And it's also a chance for you to get to know a bit more about my journey and how I can help you. We started from the very beginning talking about how I moved from St. Lucia to Canada and then India, Sudan, Japan, and now Prague. The conversation brought me back to my time in India and something that a Sufi teacher told me that really got me to rethink how I was living my life. It carried me through a lot of my twenties, and I still think about what he said more than 20 years later. There really is a difference between searching for yourself and meeting yourself. And I think that this is something very valuable for us to think about as we embark on intentional solo travel trips. A huge thanks to Kelly for the conversation and for letting me share it here. You can find her show Talking About Midlife wherever you listen to podcasts. Now here's the episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Welcome to Talking About Midlife, where we talk about life living in a female body in our midlife. We talk about health, love, relationships, our inner world, aging, death, motherhood, and what it means to be a human at this time in the world. I am Kelly Sterling and I hope you enjoyed listening to these stories that I'm sharing. Hello friends. Hope you're having a great day today.

SPEAKER_02 2:10

Thanks for listening. Today I have Daniel President with me. And Daniel is a coach and she has um a great practice where she supports midlife women to really explore themselves. And she does it through travel, which I thought was very, very interesting. And being a huge traveler myself, I understand how we can really push up against our ages when we travel and really discover new parts of ourselves. So thank you for being here today, Damien.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 2:59

So um you have lived and worked across many different cultures. So I'm wondering if you can tell us a little bit about your story and what has been the thread that has connected you to all these different moods in your life. What were you thinking?

SPEAKER_00 3:21

That's a really good question. I think I was thinking, well, I thought I was thinking adventure.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Actually, before we start, let's let's just tell everyone. So you grew up in the Caribbean. Yes. I grew up in St. Lucia. St. Lucia.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Then you moved to I moved to Canada when I was 12.

SPEAKER_02 3:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:43

And I went to Uniputsu high school and university in Canada. And then I moved to India right out of university.

unknown 3:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:51

Moved in Gipatu in that. And then I moved to Sudan. I lived in Khartoum for four years. Then I lived in Japan in Nagoya for four years. And then we came to Prague. And I had been in Prague for 12 years, which has been well, also Prague is such a beautiful city.

SPEAKER_02 4:11

So I can understand why you didn't want to leave. Although it does feel very cold, but you know, you've been in Catholic.

SPEAKER_00 4:17

But it doesn't get on a work cold.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

As you kind of like tell us a little bit about your journey and what you were seeking, even if you didn't have language for it at the time, but maybe now it's the benefit of wisdom, age, and experience, you can kind of see the thread more clearly.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Yeah, and so I perhaps that was like an adventure. Well, at first that was just looking for a job because when I finished university in Canada, I had a teaching degree and there were no jobs in Ontario, which is where my certification was from. Because Ontario used to have 13 grades and they went down to 12 grades. So all of a sudden they had all of these extra teachers.

SPEAKER_02 4:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:00

They offered some people early retirement, but I had trouble finding a job and I was like, no student loans. I'm going to pay those loans somehow. So I found a job in India. I found a lot of international teaching. And so I went off to India. And that's really how it started with me realizing, oh, like there is a whole other way of living and a whole other life that I never even imagined. Like I had never thought with somebody traveling around the world with me in other places. And then I had something really kind of that made me think happened to me in India. I met a Sufi teacher. I did a Sufi reading with him and some crystal villain. And one of the things he said to me is, I can see that you are in your life, but you're just watching your life. It's like you're on a trade and you're looking outside and your life is passing you by and you're just watching it. And for some reason that really landed with me. And that really kind of threw me because I was in my mid-20s at the time. And I was like, I don't want to live like that, just watching my life and not making any decisions for my life. Kind of being a victim is how it sounded to me.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

And uh it's taken me a long time to learn how to be more active and make decisions, but it's been a journey, really, to the place where I can feel confident making decisions in my life, yeah, actively and not just consequentially.

SPEAKER_02 6:34

Do you think that the traveling because you've lived like living in Sudan is like both by most people've measured that kind of a um a stretch, but you really love living there. And so has your travel helped you to expand probably your nervous system capacity to make those more conscious decisions?

SPEAKER_00 6:57

Absolutely, and I think especially having started in India. Like if you if you've been to India, you know that it's very confronting the small people touching you when you don't want it. Like, I mean, just walking down the street because there are so many people, you don't have that bubble. Like for a lot of Canadians, we have that bubble of space, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:21

Country, it's the same, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:23

India, you often don't feel that, and then you're confronted by different will be different standards in terms of sanitation in some places, different experiences in terms of like people staring at you all the time, like that happened to me all the time. And a little bit was curiosity. So I really had to think through when am I safe, when am I not safe, what is actually happening here. And when you talk about the nervous system, I think I really started developing some habits or some ways of being able to feel okay in my body to manage or to process what was happening and to support my nervous system. And so really it was, I think having having lived in India as my first international country, after that I was like, well, I can pretty much live anywhere. And so then actually did not daunt me moving there from India. I thought, well, if I could live in India, I guess I could live in Sudan.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

That's kind of the third process I end.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

And so that thread is really about stretching yourself by the sound of it.

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Well, yes, because the other thing that I daily choosing countries was I chose countries I had never even visited. And that was also intentional because I thought I actually know that I can do this because I've done it once. And when you go somewhere you've never visited, then you don't have any pre suppositions or expectations. Because one of my things, like I don't revisit places and I enjoy doing them. But when you go back to a place, you're never actually going back to that same place. Things have moved on, things have changed. But you kind of have expectations of it, and sounds like I'm gonna start fresh every time by picking a country I've never actually visited. And so that's what I did up until the point where I ended up in Czech Republic.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah. So in your role, I'm just thinking how travel is a real developmental catalyst for most of us because of what basically what you just talked about. So you work a lot with midlife women at a stage where identity is well formed, but it gets really rattled at this sort of transition. So if you think about the kind of disruptive nature of travel, what does it do that kind of loosens those identities that everyday life doesn't do?

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah. I think especially in midlife, I'm 46 and uh I changed my job about eight years ago, so in my late 30s. And so I think that's really the point where we start maybe feeling something that's in quite fit to the same anymore, or don't quite feel the same in our body. And so I think it's natural that at that point that identity is shifting. So we may have had well-established identities, but something feels a little bit off, and sometimes we're trying to identify exactly what that is. And I think travel really gives you the chance to meet yourself in a different way. What I kind of suggest people do if they're traveling and they want to do it in an intentional way, is that they look at it as what can I try in this environment where I actually need to make decisions, where I have the freedom to choose, but where I also must choose. So it's both kind of a privilege because you've got all of these options, but it's also a responsibility because it's like, okay, it's on me to decide. So looking at both of those things, look when you experience the trip, it's not just about being in the moment and what sides you can see, but it's also about when you go home, what are you bringing back with you? Who's the person who comes home? Is it a person who knows themselves better, who knows, oh, this is what I want more of in my life, this is what I want less of in my life. This is really what I'm inviting people to think about when they work with me. To think about the integration of what you learn on a trip back into their life.

SPEAKER_02 11:54

Which is in my experience as a coach and therapy, systemic experiencing practitioner. So, in that therapeutic sense, it's really about whatever we're going through, how we integrate it into our day-to-day life. Which can take some time, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:13

Well, of course, yeah. And it's not only does it take some time, it's not one and then. So you think, oh, like I've got to say yes, Ma, because that was such an exciting experience on my trip.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

And then you come home and you have that intention to say yes, more. And then you have all of these demands on your life. So you really need to carve out the space for it. And it doesn't happen automatically or by magic.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

No, it's not autonomic, is it? I'm just thinking about um meeting, we talked about meeting the edges, facing into our edges. And a lot of the women that um, even though you take groups, they come as solo travelers. So they're traveling on their own. Is that right? And when you start working with them?

SPEAKER_00 13:02

So actually, I don't do any groups. It's I support people to take solo travel trips.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Uh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah. And so that support is really to help them figure out what's my person, what's my personality right now for travel? So, do I want to go somewhere where they speak the same language, or am I ready to be in an environment where they do not speak the same language? Do I need to be in a place where I can take taxis everywhere, or am I uncomfortable and want to do public bus systems? Like there are all of these different elements of the way we live our lives out all, but we don't really interrogate it in terms of like what am I actually doing here? And then when I travel, what do I want to be the same and what do I want to do different? So that's a lot of what we kind of seize apart.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

How do you support them through that without overwhelming them?

SPEAKER_00 13:56

So it's uh it's breaking it down into small pieces, really, because I think really the overwhelm comes from oh, there are all of these things, and where do I even start? But I find that when you actually, even if there are a lot, lots of things on the list, if you can see, oh, there is a definite list of things I can work through, and I just need to take the next step. So we really focus on like what is the next step I need to to work on here. And you have to kind of trust the process. You can you have to trust that, oh, I have put a plan together, I can figure it out so I don't have to carry all of the pieces in my head all the time because I've already delegated it to my calendar, to my planning, to my scheduling. Like it's all set only enough for me to set that I feel comfortable. Yeah, I'm just gonna do the very next thing, and that's how I travel too. Like people will be like, oh, so you're flight in two weeks? What time is it? I'm like, I don't know. I have a flight tomorrow. That's the one I'm focused on. One thing at a time.

SPEAKER_02 14:59

We're very much the same. I mean, I remember traveling around in the 90s when I was backpacking. Just no plan whatsoever. Um, and took where where the winds. But I found, you know, when you're traveling for shorter periods of time, obviously on work holidays, or even when you have children, you need a bit more structure and planning to it, don't you? So we have the spreadsheet, and like you, we know we've got a beat somewhere on that date, but we don't really think about it too much until we know that we're we're going to be there.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yeah, and we do.

SPEAKER_00 15:37

And like you just talked about traveling with children or traveling. And I think it's the thing when you're traveling with other people where you're kind of negotiating what each person needs to feel okay in terms of nervous system, etc. And then sometimes you have the responsibility example with children where you do need to make sure to a larger degree that everybody is going to be safe, that there are places that children can find, there are things for different people to do. So, for example, I'm not typically somebody who enjoys beach or resort holidays, but I totally see how a resort holiday makes sense for a family. But there are slides for the kids and there's a play area and all of that. So it's really the season of life and what you're looking for and what you need is so important to consider. Yeah, true.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah, I think a lot of us get like that. I mean, I remember the first time I took my kids to Rome and they have been to Italy so many times, and they were young, and my young birth, who was about five at the time, we went to the Coliseum. We walked in and we looked around and went, okay, that's great, let's go. But actually, Rome was just too much for them. Like we probably just stretched it a little bit, and after that, we just tended to stay in the regional towns when we went back. We went back because we've lived there at one point and it was easy for us. Um, and that was much better for their nervous systems. Like they felt safer and they were more comfortable and they learned a few Italian words, but they also learned about the culture, like siestas and shops being closed in the afternoon, and then so that you know that became normalized, and they were totally cool with it. So that just meant, oh, we got to the playground when you know so. I think I know where playgrounds are in many cities in the world.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

And you know, you talk about like the collective and being like, oh yeah, let's go. And like even as an adult, sometimes that are places that go where I'm like, okay, on that, and then somebody else is like, Oh, wow, we need to see what I want. Something funny.

SPEAKER_02 17:43

Yeah, I get it too. Um, and so then that leads me to talking about the nervous system and unfamiliar environments because travel can be really exhilarating, but it can also be incredibly dysregulating at the same time. New languages, new places, the unpredictability of uh lack of schedule and and um public transport in some countries, uh whereas in some places you go to, it arrives to the minute, and you know that makes some of us feel really safe. So how do you support your clients to stay resourced when things are a little um wild rather than shut down or push through?

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Yeah, that's a really big thing because I think a lot of people don't have skills in in day-to-day life, or we well, we're not challenged the same way to use those skills. I tend to use the process by Tyre Brack a lot, which is called like the rain meditation. Yeah, and that's recognize what's happening to me. Oh wow. Don't try to fight it because then that just causes more stress for your nervous system.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:06

Investigate, like, why am I feeling this way? And then nurture, like, what do you need to feel safe? And what can you and often it's what can you provide to yourself? She talks about saying it's okay, sweetheart. And I like the word sweetheart, so I tend to say that one to myself a lot. Um, but I'm not an experience of this, and that's something that I feel very comfortable sharing with clients. I went to a spa in Japan, and it was I thought it was going to be a spa where I was in fermented rice water, but it turns out it was fermented rice sand. Very dip red. So all of a sudden I thought I would be submerged in water, but I was buried in sand, and it actually went around my ear. Like I had cotton balls in my ear, and it came up like this around my ear.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

So your whole face was sort of open, yeah, but right on the edge.

SPEAKER_00 20:02

Exactly. And I had like uh like I had a what is a shower cap on so that my hair wouldn't get all sandy, even though it still did. Um and I was lying there and I could feel I could feel pulsing in my head, I could feel my heart racing, and I was thinking to myself, what is happening like that? Okay, so recognize, right? Like I was like, something is up. I did not feel okay with kind of what went through my head. And I was allowed, like, okay, I'm gonna breathe. I'm just gonna feel what is happening in my body, like notice, notice all of the parts of my body and how are they feeling, and then investigate. Why am I feeling this way? It's actually interesting because investigating kind of it's a tension between body and head, right? Because investigating is a very mental activity. You're thinking, how am I feeling? But you have to tune into your body for it to be able to investigate. It's like my head.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

We call it ventral vabel. So ventral vabel is like exactly connected, curious, like I feel there's a then the degree of safety there. So just stay in exactly in that curiosity. There was a degree to which you could resource yourself and you had that skills to do it, which is beautiful.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

And then, like nurture for me was like, okay, Damian, it's okay. But it's also asking myself, okay, what do you need right now? Do you need to call somebody and say you want to get out of there? Or can you just breathe through it? And do you want to have this experience even though it's uncomfortable? That's really the question I can ask myself. And the answer was yeah. But I also was like, yeah, five more minutes. Not no, I don't I don't know about longer than five minutes. I'm committing to five minutes and then we'll check in again. So that's one of the I don't know if there's a psychology term for this, but that's one of the tools I find really useful. When you're feeling like a little bit dysregulated or you're not sure about a situation, can you give it 30 seconds? Can you give it two minutes? Like, how long can you give the situation? And it's not, of course, if you truly feel unsafe, then you don't. That's not when we're playing this game of giving ourselves, pushing ourselves. But if you're kind of curious and you're like, I don't really know what's happening. I think I would like to kind of find out and give it a bit more time. That's when you give it 30 seconds, you give it a minute, you give it two minutes. Yeah, I think that's the one of the main tools that is helpful. And then the other thing is to have a backup plan. And so if you know, okay, you want to try taking the public bus for the first time, but you might not really be comfortable with that, then we're gonna have some taxi numbers and we're gonna have a local scene so that you can get yourself out of a situation where you're not feeling comfortable. So, like you said, there are lots of things to think about, but there are things that we actually do in day-to-day lives. It's just that we might not have all of the information and the infrastructure in a new place. So, can we set that up so that people feel safe?

SPEAKER_02 23:15

I suggest reminded me of something I haven't thought about for years, many years ago. This was in the 90s, and I was in Italy. It was cold, so it must have been like March or April, and um in Florence, and I was with a friend, and we took a bus. She was staying in a youth hostel, and we took the wrong bus. It was going in the direction, but I think it finished earlier than our stock. Anyway, we got off and we thought, uh, what do we do? And and we just had a little bit of a wander and we found a restaurant, and we thought, oh well, it's dinner time, like let's get some food. And we had the most amazing meal. And because it was just in some random neighborhood that wasn't a touristy place, like the food was incredible. Uh, the wine was amazing, and we had such an amazing time. And then we kind of walked back and we had a bit of time because we were eating to kind of relax and then talk about where we needed to walk back to. This is before phones and all of you know technology. So we had sort of a Mac, and so we're like, okay, well, we have to walk to here. We I think we'd just gone the bus we took went slightly in a different direction, but not too far. And so we could walk back to where we needed to be going home. But you know, we talked and laughed about it for a long time and remembered that it was just such an amazing meal, and we were just able to kind of stay calm and we didn't have a backup plan, but we kind of made one, which is basically cooking out.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

Yeah, and I think really what you were pointing out too is sometimes when we're in a situation that's uncomfortable, we want to get out of there as quickly as possible. Yeah, and you don't actually give yourself completely natural. But if you can pause and give yourself a little bit of space, then you realize, oh, it actually is not that bad. I can have dinner. I don't actually, I'm not lit for anything. I can figure this out. So I think it's really like making space to realize, okay, what is really going on, and that really helps if the end of this access it.

SPEAKER_02 25:29

We were talking the other day about when women get to this midlife stage of life and they're, you know, they're really questioning their identity because for a lot of people they've been taking care of other people for a very long time. So whether that's in the family or in the workplace, so some people they might not have kids, but they've had a business which has been like their child, or they've had a big corporate role, or something like that. There's often we're at a stage where we've had a lot of responsibility. What if it what do you think happens to them when they step into an environment when they're in a completely new role because it's a new environment? No one knows who they are. There's something kind of liberating about that, I notice, for a lot of people. And I'm really curious about your experience with this and what you've noticed.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

I think one thing that it allows you to do is it allows you to play. Like, what is there? Is there something that you want to explore? Like, how many times have I told myself, okay, on Monday, I'm gonna do this when I enter the office, which might be a little bit different than what I typically do. So I work at Rework a lot and I think, oh, one day I'm gonna talk to more people. I want them to keep moving. But then you're researching in an environment where people know you. So it's so easy to default to the usual, the way that you're used to showing up. But I find that when you're in a new space, you are you actually do have the liberation to be able to try something new. So I was talking to a friend about um going to the on thing in Japan, and I was like, at first I was like, okay, we don't really go to places before outloads off. They do in Germany a lot, and I have been to the spa in Germany, but I was very self-conscious doing this in Japan. And eventually I was like, I am never gonna see these people again. I am just gonna be totally experience and have as much fun as I can. I took a course a few years back, and one of the games we played that we played in the class was to try to have 20% more enjoyment in any moment. So it's like, how can I have 20% more enjoyment in this moment where I'm feeling slightly uncomfortable? And then I discovered I loved the onset, and then I wear it at every opportunity.

SPEAKER_02 27:57

It's I'm just reflecting as you're talking on um belonging and how uh to like to your point, when we try and kind of do it differently at work, it's that you know, our neurobiology, so our nervous system is so wired for connection and belonging that we often conform to to whatever role that we've been taking up at work, but also what's the norm in the workplace or you know, in in a group of friends, or and I know with clients that I've coached over the years, when they're going through um and they're shifting a lot of their old patterns, and we're doing this deep semantic work, sometimes friendships end, and they end because we outgrow them, and we don't want to take up that role systemically anymore that we've been. So maybe we've been putting more effort into friendships, or we've been holding space, or or maybe that we're just people where we don't feel well, we just feel that we're growing and they're not, whatever. There's an there's a whole lot of reasons. And you know, I think with travel, it kind of there's something about what you just talked about that lets people kind of practice at being different in a different environment, but then we're also culturally exposed to these cultural norms. Um, like I always laugh when I go to Spain because they all eat dinner at like 10 or 11 o'clock at night and I'm dying and need to have it like on tray at six so I can make it through. So you so we we kind of adapt to it, but I'm just curious about you what your experience of that and and what do you what are your thoughts about how event that this gives people an opportunity just to practice? I know you've talked about it a little bit, but what do you see with your clients?

SPEAKER_00 30:03

Yeah, absolutely. Um like I was talking to a lady and she was talking about how she does a trip every February. Um she did the trip by having everything kind of planned for her, and she wanted to feel more comfortable doing more of the planning herself. And one of the things she talked about is that if you use a tour in Southeast Asia, for example, often every dinner is like a five to seven cups meal, and of course, that's not the local experience, that's kind of like the fortunate tourists is Southeast Asia experience, but then it becomes this like this is not something that I would typically do at home. Do I want to have this experience every day, or is it something that I want to change? And that's kind of frivolous, but it does show that sometimes in travel you experience situations that are different than at home, like you said, and then you have to figure out like what do I do here? So, what I like for myself, because I recently did a trip, so it's very fresh in my mind. I noticed that in Japan, depending on where I was in Japan, the pace was very different. So this time I lived in Japan before, but this time when I went to Japan, I went to Wakayama, which is it was a lot smaller town, countryside, and uh I would go for a walk at nine and nothing was open. And so just being in that space really invited me to also go slow. There wasn't a lot to do. You would go have a walk and see the ocean, you would walk and see the cliffs. Like it was really that kind of place that if you pay attention to the pace, then you adapt to it. I think both happens because some like I spent a summer in Spain and I was like, I am not having dinner at 10. I am sorry. But I'm gonna find the rector and that opens at 7 p.m. And this is where I'm happy because I had to be up anyway. I think so. Really, it depends on like where you are in your life and what is it that you're looking for. Sometimes it makes total sense to be completely immersed in the local culture. And I do invite, I do invite my clients to do that as much as possible because I think having cultural experience in places do kind of open you up to the possible. Like when we're just at home doing the same thing day in and day out, you think that that's what's normal. You think that's the right way to do things. But when you experience other cultures and you see, oh, dinner at 10 p.m. makes total sense if you have an afternoon siesta. Where is that a good idea and where does that not make sense? Sometimes it makes sense in my life. Um, or maybe you go to Germany and you go to the spa and you're like, oh, this is a place where we don't wear Benning suits to go into the sauna.

SPEAKER_01 33:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:02

Why when is that a good idea, or why is that not a good idea? Like you start to interrogate things, and it's not just what people tell you, but what you notice, and then you can do research also, or talk to people if you really want to learn more about why things are different in different places.

SPEAKER_02 33:21

It probably also opens up a lot of people's eyes to the cultural norms that they live with every day and they take for grant.

SPEAKER_00 33:27

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, because I think like if we like in Canada, my family typically has dinner at 6 p.m. That's the right time to have dinner, of course, because that's what we do. So the first time I went to Spain and people were having dinner at 10. But like, what is this madness? But I mean, it's not madness, it's a different lifestyle and rhythm of life. So totally different rhythms. It's really fun.

SPEAKER_02 33:54

We had this hilarious experience years ago. My husband and I were in Argentina. We were down in one of the towns down in the south, which was a great town. It was a ski town though. And we went for dinner at eight, and we were staying. This is before Airbnb. We were staying in a sort of bed and breakfast that this um guy in his 60s from Buenos Aires had, and he was hilarious. And we got home at like 10:30. So eight is very late for us to dinner. We normally eat earlier because we get up early. A lot of Australians get up early to do exercise because it's because it's so hot here, right? Yeah, that's so we so we get up early, but we go to bed earlier. Um, and we got home and he's you're like, Oh my god, you're like German. You eat really early, and we're laughing at him. And it was a quarter to eleven at night. And I said, What are you off to? And this is all in Spanish. And he said, I'm going out for dinner with my friends. And I'm thinking, oh my god, this guy's got to be like 68, 69. He's like, Oh, you young people, what's wrong with you? You know, like the masses are telling him, but yeah, and then you know, my body just is not wired that way, but we had been doing a lot of hiking as well, so we probably were starving, but it was hilarious, and of course, the obviously the Spanish culture. And didn't he have a CST? Probably. With we've been out roaming and walking up and down hills and things like that and getting up early.

SPEAKER_00 35:28

And if you want and if you want to really meet local people following the rhythm of the place, it's really the best way to do it.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

So when your clients come to you, often what are the things that they're thinking about when what is it to attract like what is what do you notice when they come to you? Is it that I want to do something different with my life? Like, what are the questions that they're asking themselves?

SPEAKER_00 35:53

Usually it's more like like, why am I not happy? Everything looks like it's fine than a not happy. Like my life looks fine on paper. I have a good job, I I'm comfortable, but something feels a bit off. That's usually what it starts with. But often it's like, I don't really know what's wrong with me, but something feels not quite right. It's a lot of that kind of language that comes up, and a lot of the time they send my content, so they know that solo travel is kind of what I talk about. And it's like, so there's some interest in solo travel. For some of them, it's that they had a trip in mind for a long time and they were waiting for their husband to go with them, or they're waiting for their friend to go with them, and that is not happening, and they get resentful because they're like, I have really like I was gonna do this for my 40th birthday, and I was gonna do this for my 50th birthday, and I'm and I still haven't done this, and I don't want to necessarily put it off. They don't necessarily start off by saying I don't want to put it off, but that's really the on the tone. It's like I feel like my life is a little bit on hold when it comes to the things that I want because everybody else has so much they want of me.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

That is very interesting, and I also notice that in a lot of my clients, and I think there is grief there for a lot of us for we had these aspirations when we were younger and they have not been fulfilled, or our life hasn't turned out the way that we thought, and there's grief there, which is very natural. Um, but there's ambiguous grief, I think it's called. Oh, yeah. I mean, yeah, the way that I look at it is as we learn and grow, there has to be grief for integration. So there has to be a letting go of something, and and you know, grief will grief will come when we let go of you know, of love, essentially. You know, that's why we have grief when someone dies that we love, because we're letting go of something that we love very much. And grief is, you know, a really healthy emotion to help us process whatever that letting go is. And at midlife, we're letting go of parts of ourselves. But you know, in in those early aspirations, because it's a you know, it's also about coming back to the essence of who we are, there's often a deep yearning to come back to who that person is.

SPEAKER_00 38:24

And then you so imagine what it feels like when you don't feel like you know who that person is. Exactly. I think that's really what it comes down to because a lot of the women they said their job was their purpose.

SPEAKER_02 38:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

And at some point they realize actually, my job will not take care of me.

SPEAKER_02 38:43

No.

SPEAKER_00 38:44

Who's gonna take care of me? And really it comes down to I will take care of me. And whenever I feel it, like I always try to soften it a little bit to say, like, it's not that I don't believe in community, I believe in community. I think we all are social creatures, we made community. Also, really believe in being able to be there for yourself. Like you're the first you at 3 a.m. when you wake up and you're feeling anxious or unsure or whatever. Like, do you have the language or do you have the nervous system regulation for you to be able to do yourself?

SPEAKER_02 39:18

Yeah. Yeah. To attune it's the attunement. Like, can I attune to and be what I'm experiencing right now? And that could be hard if we didn't have that experience from our caregivers when we're younger, because that's where we have most people didn't.

SPEAKER_00 39:36

I think only most people didn't.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Yeah, they didn't.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

So we have to learn how to provide that for ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 39:44

Yeah. So I'm just thinking there's a bit of a fine line between travel as transformation versus travel as escape, like escaping ourselves. So how do you talk to me about how you work through that and differentiate that and help people see that and just yeah, I'm curious about what your thoughts are on that.

SPEAKER_00 40:10

Yeah, so that's really why I talk about intentional solo travel. So we're studying the intention before we go. And then we're also looking back when we come and reflecting. I was thinking about this because I met a I don't know how old she was, but I met a lady when I was traveling in Lampsu recently, and she said, Oh, I I I'm going to go to China next. Because I've been traveling for three years, and I keep looking for a place where they don't really speak English, so then I can find myself. I wanted to I keep finding people who speak English and I'm not finding myself. And I was, and I like that was really kind of stayed with me because I've been thinking about that. She looked like maybe she was in her 30s and she made money from Bitcoin and she was retired. And I was like, oh wow. I was like, I'm not your coach, so I'm not really going to give you a lecture. But I was thinking myself, like you probably have already thought, like you are yourself right there. Like maybe actually what you need to do is stop running. You have to be present long enough to save yourself. So I think that definitely comes up where travel as escape is like I'm searching for myself. And it and like you said, it's a fine line, right? Because meeting yourself is different than searching for yourself. There might sound like the same thing, but when you meet yourself, it's like I already know I'm here. I'm just going to give her space for her to reveal herself in a way that I'm ready for, actually, is really what it comes down to. Because when I said you're ready for, you you notice the things that you have capacity to notice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 41:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

And so if you're just chasing, and that happens sometimes where somebody goes on a solar trip and you're like, well, like nothing really happened. And then we have to decompose. Okay, so tell me about the experience you had. How was the game from home? Did you did you allow yourself to explore things that came up that you were interested in? Did you notice what excited you and what didn't? And so both that all of the kind of prompts and invitations to be able to have a trip where you're not escaping, but you're embodying.

SPEAKER_02 42:29

Yeah, and I think it's yeah, your point embodying is the word. And and also something that you said before is about meeting yourself. Like, did that's the difference, isn't it? About meet being able to meet yourself rather than escaping from what is coming up from you. I think you get to know yourself better. Yeah. Really the the simple text. Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. Of all the places that you have lived and traveled, which one changed you the most? Not just externally but internally and why.

SPEAKER_00 43:15

Like my first inclination is to say India annoyed me, just because it started me on this path that I didn't even know was possible for me. And uh also in India, like I met so many different different people and cultures and nationalities. Like I grew up in the Caribbean where I was not surrounded by a lot of diversity. And then I moved to Canada. We lived in a small town in Canada. I was the only black student at my school. So I was surrounded in a sea um pretty homogeneous community. There were a few Chinese students, but other than that, it was pretty homogeneous. And then I started working at international. Schools where there would be 30 different cultures more. You can imagine how this really opened up my eye to differentiate, but also similarities. And I think that is kind of what surprised me the most was there was a lot of narrative about how different people are, but when you come right down to it, we're much more similar than we are different.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

And that's what I carry.

SPEAKER_02 44:29

I there was a quote a few years back that I heard a therapist say, is what we have in common is our humanity. So in diversity, we have our humanity, and that's what I like. I've worked, I've done a lot of organizational work for years, and go into a different company, and they're like, oh, we're very different, we're very different. And I always say, Yeah, but you're humans at the end of the day. And and the way that you do business is different, and that drives, you know, different normative behaviors, but we are all humans. And I think to your point, that's kind of where it lands, isn't it? Exactly. I think it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah, and it's so interesting because we see like so much bypass and things and conversations, and even sometimes I'll tell somebody that I'm following a particular person, and it'll be like, How could you follow that person? Because they said this and that. And I really believe that everybody is complex. There is this word I learned. Thunder. And it really believes and it means that everybody is having a complex experience and figuring out their way in the world. And that means that none of us are really right, and none of us are really sure. And so that leaves a lot of space for conversation and for exploration. That's what I that's what I really think.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

I mean, I love that. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 46:11

Damien, where can people find you? Do you tell me about your website and social media and all those things? So we can put them in the notes and people can connect with you.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yes, so I'm Damian Coaching on social media. And my website is freedomlookslikehis.com. And if you are new to solo travel, and even if you've listened to this conversation and you've been curious about meeting yourself, then my first invitation is for you to spend some time alone with yourself. And I have a guide that can give you some suggestions of how to do that. And you can find that at freedomlookslike this.com or slash goalong.

SPEAKER_02 46:57

I'm sure you'll have a link for the show notes. Thank you so much for being with me today. This beautiful conversation. And I just I love your approach, and it's just different from anyone else that I've spoken to on my podcast. She's been a coach for a therapist for a really long time.

SPEAKER_00 47:19

I really appreciate being able to talk to you. It's been fun.

SPEAKER_02 47:22

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 47:23

10% white I went. Thank you, Kelly.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Thank you.