Willie Collum: The barriers facing female referees I A Level Playing Field I Episode 13

In this episode, we’re joined by the Head of Refereeing at the Scottish FA, Willie Collum, for an honest and insightful conversation about the future of female referees in Scotland.

Willie discusses the growing presence of women in officiating and the clear ambition to see female referees regularly taking charge of top-flight men’s matches.

He opens up on areas the game isn’t talking about enough, including how referees manage training during the menstrual cycle and the challenges of returning to elite fitness after pregnancy.

The conversation also tackles one of the biggest barriers facing female officials: the demands of the fitness tests. 

Alongside this, Willie reflects on his own journey in refereeing, sharing both the highs and the lows from his time on the pitch, offering a rare and personal perspective on the pressures of the role.

Finally, he outlines his vision for the future and the practical steps being taken to attract, support, and retain more women in refereeing at every level of the game.

A candid, forward-thinking discussion on breaking barriers and building the next generation of officials.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to a level playing field, sponsored by Nutmeg Magazine, the Scottish football quarterly. If you're looking for your next great football read, the World Cup special issue of Nutmeg Magazine is available to purchase now. You can order your copy at nutmegmagazine.co.uk to enjoy stories from Scotland's adventures on the greatest stage.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

Hello, I'm Cheryl Smith. Welcome back. Joined as always by Alison McConnell. We're here at the National Stadium today, joined by Head of Referees, the Scottish FA, Willie Collin. Willie, thank you so much for joining us and taking time at your schedule, which I can imagine is probably pretty hectic given this insane season that they're all witnessing at the moment. So thanks for uh thanks for joining us. I think this will be a good listen for people. We want to get into conversation with you about female referees and where they are at the moment, where they've where they've come from and and your insight into that, which I think people will be interested in. But before we get to that, you know, you were an on the grass referee for almost 30 years before you took over this role. You've refereed some of the biggest games in this country, Champions League, Europa League. So I just wanted to ask you a question I think probably a lot of people would want to ask. Did you decide to become a referee all those years ago? What was it?

SPEAKER_00 1:17

So people will probably think, you know, at that time there was an association with refereeing that people got into because there was people in their family in it. Um, but for me it was a love of football. Um, I wanted to be a goalkeeper. Um, and and I often tell the story I did play one game for the school team. We lost 19 nil. Um that's true, so I was worried about going to school the next day. But really, it was just something I remember my mother coming into the living room and showing me a newspaper article that said they were advertising taking up refereeing, and at that time you could be 14 in referee. And I never really looked back, never did I believe it would take me where it took me, really, you know, in terms of the level and I never entered refereeing by any aspiration just for a love of the game. I remember even my first match, somebody gave me £12 for for the referee in the match. It was at Milton, um an under-12 match, and and I didn't I wasn't even aware you get paid, you know. So um, but I love a football, I love a playing, you know. 1993 I started and my memory, my first kind of memories of football getting right into it would have been run about the World Cup in Italy in 1990, you know. And um but like every young person, particularly at that time, I played in the street, you know, I would play every night, and football was important to me and um you know still is, I I love it, you know, and um but but I decided to take that direction of referee.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Did you ever lose your love of it to see when you're in the midst of it and there's all kinds of criticisms coming and you maybe you're embroiled in lots of media scrutiny and stuff. Is there any points where you actually you're sick of football? You think I f I actually do I watch that game? Because you're watching it through the prism of of being the official or watching it through the eyes of being the referee and maybe no like just watching it for pure pleasure?

SPEAKER_00 3:01

I know and I find that now in my role, Alison, if I'm being honest, the intensity that I very rarely watch a match now that I don't have a vested interest in because I used to only have responsibility for my match, and once that was out the road at the weekend you could relax and watch other games. Now I've got a responsibility for everything. The only games I probably relax at are Scotland matches here, you know. Um but not I think in my role, I also think when I was an active referee, you had a kind of professional development responsibility to watch football. For example, I would never expect a top referee in this country to say to me, in a midweek, I've not been able to see a particular incident for a match at the weekend. That's your job, that's your responsibility, that's your role, you know, when you're operating at the top level of the game. Sometimes I think when the scrutiny's here, particularly when you get to match in any season, this season of all seasons, because there's a lot of pressure, we can see the finish line as well. And I look forward to I think you'll find me in a dark and room come the beginning of June. Everybody will be getting excited about going to the World Cup. I'll be lined in for a few days. Um and I genuinely mean that because much sometimes to the annoyance of my wife, football's 24-7, it never stops. You know, people will say to me, Enjoy your weekend, and it's really just starting for us, the business of that. So I think I've found that difficult in this role where you know when when I worked previously in a senior role in education, okay, you worked a lot of extra hours, but it was 95 and you did have your weekend, add my football, but it was difficult. This is difficult to juggle stopping at times. Um, but that's partly for me as well. You you you you can be in a role like this and know of a hundred percent commitment to that role, it would be very difficult.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

We were doing a wee bit of research um when we were preparing for this, and I think the stats last year, when you look at female referees, it was only five percent of registered officials are female. What do you think would make a female want to become a referee? Because it it seems just a thankless task sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Yeah, and and whenever I talk about referee, there's always negatives to be spoken about because that's natural, but I also talk about the positives, and you know, if you look at the last World Cup, for example, with a female referee, you know, with female match officials, in fact, operating at that. I've never refereed at a World Cup, you know, but there's Stephanie Frapart for France refereeing at a World Cup, you know. So I think what we need to sell as well is the great opportunities. When I was a young referee, when I came into refereeing, it was a taboo subject to talk about financial gain. No, we don't hide for that. There's money to be made in refereeing the way there's money to be made in playing football. But I would encourage anybody who comes into the game, male or female, to you know, that passion, that love for the game, and I guarantee they'll get something out of it. There'll be difficult times, but the positives far outweigh the negatives. And to touch on the point, you're absolutely right about the percentage of female referees in Scotland. So when I come into this role, I felt that we had to be data smart. I think we can be data rich in this organisation, but we need to be data smart. What's our measures of success? We've got approximately 4% active female referees for our overall referee population, so to speak. If you look at the average in UEFA, it's between 7 and 10%. So I've challenged my colleagues in here to say we need to reach that. Now, nobody's going to batter us out the head with a stick if we don't reach that, but what we've we've been putting in place is campaigns supporting our female referees currently to make sure we retain them to try and get to that between 7 and 10%. So that when I go back and I'm questioned by UEFA about that, I say here's the things we've put in place and here's how we've tried to make a difference. But you're right to raise it because in Scotland now we need to look at and say, as a compar to our comparative countries, we're sitting at least three percent below them.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

See, when you when we look at the the modern environment that referees work in for every game and every decision is scrutinised to the nth degree, not just on in the media or w with journalists like us or media commentators, but also on social media on Twitter, you have fans pouring over minute details in games, and there is so much criticism around officials. Is that is that a barrier or have you found that a barrier for females to get involved in? Because my own experience would suggest that even any female in football, there's probably a different layer of abuse that comes if you're vocal about football or you're you're you're almost seen to be in an environment that you shouldn't be in. I'll put that in an inverted commas, but is that a an element of something that you would have to consider when you're trying to attract females to come into it?

SPEAKER_00 7:42

I think so, because I think the abuse can be relentless. I think the social media abuse is is a big issue for us. I think it's a big issue in football generally. Um I think we need to be aware of mental health in football. I think we're getting better at that. But I think we very rarely talk about mental health and referee, you know. Again, it's very rarely mentioned. And and sometimes when you mention, for example, mental health and refereeing, there's an even further layer to get there to mental health and female refereeing. Um But I I think to answer your question that there is there is an issue around about the amount of abuse, the abuse in the public park, the abuse in other environments, you know, in social media elsewhere, which make it really difficult and difficult to encourage female referees, you know, to either progress their career in the men's game, which I want to be quite clear about as well. Uh we don't just want to encourage female referees to come in and operate in the female game. You know, we we've got a responsibility to say if Stephanie Frappart in France can achieve at the very top level of the game, why can somebody for Scotland know bear trailblazer there and achieve as well? Absolutely. Whenever you type in Scottish refereeing, you'll see a and in particular if you type in female Scottish refereeing, you find a lot about rugby, you know, you know, um, and that would be an environment again that again is a good role model for us. You also mentioned the journalists, um, but people, whenever I speak at any meeting that involves a variety of stakeholders and football, I tell them that everybody in the room or online or whatever, and then could it even hear this? Everybody's got a responsibility to protect the image of the game. Everybody's got a responsibility in football to encourage people into refereeing because when you say it, people dismiss that phrase without referees, there wouldn't it be a game, but it's true. But we need to support our referees to develop the way we want the game in Scotland generally to develop, and and I think the abuse is a big factor, and everybody needs to do something in their power to be able to prevent that and stop it and realise that that is an impact in the the male refereeing side of the game. But you know, I've got daughters myself, and and if you're a 16-year-old girl then thinking about coming into refereeing and you see the behaviour of some people in the public park, you see the behaviour of some people at a much higher level, you see what's said about referees, you know, in the media, um in social media, it's difficult to overcome, so it's definitely a barrier for us.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

It is almost as if referees at any level are expected to be perfect, that there isn't this um there isn't this space to develop to get things wrong, and and then in any professional environment, it's through your mistakes that you're actually going to get better and learn, yet we seem very unforgiving of any mistakes at any refereeing of official.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

It's a good point that referees are an easy blame target, you know. We're blamed for a lot of things. Um sometimes to take the pressure away for you know, maybe where some of the real problems lie, perhaps in a team selection, perhaps in a goalkeeper error, somebody missing an open goal. But that's always been there in refereeing, and I think it will continue to be there. But it's for people to realise that referees are human, you know. It's the same when we brought VAR in. People thought it would solve every single problem. That was never the reason for VAR. But when you actually take a step back and look, look at VAR with all the criticisms of VAR, it's fixed a lot of problems that wouldn't be fixed if we didn't have it. Um, but referees need to learn, particularly at grassroots level, you know, they need to build, they need to grow in confidence, they need to make mistakes the way I made mistakes coming through. The way I'd make mistakes in this job and learn fit in progress. So there needs to be that understanding. I was speaking recently to a board meeting, um, a clubs, and I said to the clubs it was a stressful period for them in the January transfer window because they were pressure of buying players and getting this player, getting that player, can I release this player, can I sell this player? It's impossible for me to buy a referee. So I need to develop referees, but I need people to help us develop their referees, you know, and that blame culture to an extent has to stop because I think it's it's easy to blame referees, easy to pick up on mistakes. They will make mistakes and they'll continue to make mistakes. My job is particularly as you go through the categories at refereeing to reduce the mistakes made and hopefully at the very top level with AR, we also reduce the errors where people just kind of comprehend.

SPEAKER_02 12:09

It's a good point you make about you want female referees to come in, but also to operate in the men's game and not just go straight into the women's game. Do you ever envision in reality a time that a female referee would referee an old firm game, for example, a men's old firm game?

SPEAKER_00 12:24

When people say that, um my response to them is why not? Because people who say to me, for example, I hear lines used in social media about you know, oh, the referees are for the west of Scotland, or the top referees are for the West of Scotland, or oh, the referees are here for geographical or whatever. I don't care where referees are from, what their background is, what their job is, male, female, we just want the best people for the games. And I actually turn that by saying if you speak to the top SWPL clubs in Scotland, and you said to them, you know, we're trying to make sure we populate the SWPL with top female referees, they actually go against that because what they want is the best referees, male or female for that category of football. The referees who are assigned to the games, they just want them to be the best. So why not? Abby Henry, for example, they're now we promoted at Christmas. Um two years ago, we promoted her to the FIFA list. She's performing well in her UEFA games, albeit the the majority of the games are youth matches. She's refereed one or two A-internationals and did really well. She's been promoted to category one. So she tonight, for example, will referee at Spartans. So she's on that journey towards the top level of the game. One of the biggest barriers in female refereeing at the top level of the game, and I'm being blunt and honest here, is passing the fitness test. Because the modern game and refereeing demands the highest standards of fitness, and that's been a barrier for women before. And Abby Henry, in my opinion, has set a really high standard. We we upped the fitness levels when I come in, up the fitness test. We used to run run a track, we've been that. Now we have a single double single exercise, really, really demanding, pitch-based. And Abby Henry is passing the test the same way you know Nick Walsh and John Beaton, Kevin Clancy are passing that test. That's testament to her because that's a demanding, demanding test, and particularly with the sprint runs at the start of that as well. And the reality is a female referees in the past have found that really, really difficult. We were at a UEFA symposium and women's refereeing four weeks ago. That was probably one of the biggest topics in discussion. Because, you know, women referees at the very top level find it hard to deal exactly at the same level as a men's fitness testing. So do we see Avi Hendry refereeing the premiership in Scotland? We hope so. We hope so. You know, and if she continues in that trajectory, absolutely why not?

SPEAKER_01 14:53

I suppose one of your concerns here too would be aside from the fitness element, but if you have a referee in a high-profile game, a female referee in a high-profile game who makes a mistake, the first accusation is going to be gender.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Yeah, but we need to move away from that, you know, because when I was a referee, there was accusations made about me because I was a young referee at one time, you know, and people would say you're young, you're inexperienced, and then they'll say that about a female referee. But actually, we've had lots of really positive feedback for Cubs this season about Abby Henry and about some of her other referees who are operating down in the pyramid who are female referees, and that's really, really positive for us, you know, because again I go back to refereeing should be based on ability. As long as you can pass a fitness test, as long as you can meet the requirements for that standard of the game, why not? Why not? And that needs to be the way we look at it going forward. That's why we promoted Abby Henry. We never promoted Abby Henry because we're ticking some box. We promoted Abby Henry because Abby Henry's marks were outstanding. She's really comfortable with the new testing we're doing and she's performing really well. The same way we would look at their three criteria to promote a male referee.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

Well, um the other thing I was I was going to say was when uh when it comes to attracting females to to come into the game, is that a challenge that because so many will be juggling careers and studying and other things, is it a challenge to have the dedicated time towards getting to a physical level that obviously is hugely demanding then in terms of the the time that it would take up to dedicate to to reaching those levels?

SPEAKER_00 16:35

That is tough, but that's tough across the board, I would say, in refereeing. Um you know, when I was an active referee, we'd be juggling, you know, job family football. By football, I mean everybody thinks we put a kit on in a Saturday and go, and that's it. It's seven days a week. And I'm no embarrassed to see us, and probably when I reflect on my life, it's not a nice thing to say at times. I probably neglected my family because you know I was thinking of football and I was thinking of my job, and we dress things up at times, don't we? In life, we say, you know, I'm doing the football thing's like a wee bit of financial reward and it gets us a good holiday. Whereas sometimes my kid just wanted me to be at a birthday party or just wanted me to go to their parents' night, you know, and and sometimes I felt my wife was like a single parent, and I hope I don't look back at my life and regret that, but I'm talking wandering onto myself here, back to your question. Yeah, it's difficult, it's very, very difficult. We've with a female referee up northern who's very successful as a referee, very good, but she's studying to be a doctor, you know, and the demands of that are very, very difficult. But can I answer that question by wandering onto another point? When I've been to FIFA courses recently, for me, we've now focused enough in Scotland at talking to our female referees about how to train during your menstrual cycle, about how to make a comeback for pregnancy. One of our top FIFA assistant referees and now Vicki Allen has just said a baby five weeks ago. We need to be in a position to support Vicki to come back for that pregnancy and still operate at the very top level of the game. I can hear advice on that. That's why we need to rely on sports science, we need to rely on people and expertise. But here's my main point for it. Since I've come into post here, I've thought referees sitting here, football development sitting here, operating with the national teams and whatever here. Why? Why am I separate for that? Because female referees are as much athletes as the players who played out there the other week against Luxembourg. So what we've now been able to do with good support within the association here is we're joining up. Our top female referees, and anybody who's interested in any of the topics being covered, are going to the same seminars that we're trying to educate our top female players with. That's the way that we should be looking at that. Just because you're a referee doesn't mean that your training should be any different for a female player. So we're then a lot better joined up, thinking that we're working closer with FIFA and UEFA. They're really big at saying, How are you working, my referees that want to come back for having a baby? Having a baby for a female referee shouldn't be a barrier to saying that's your career finish now. It should be a moment where we say, take time out, we're going to support you and we're going to get you back, you know, to what that would look like.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Has culture changed, do you think, since you started and have we evolved as a society? Now I'm thinking I remember earlier in my career when Morag Perry came through. Now I don't know, I think she would maybe just have been slightly a slightly older than you and possibly slightly ahead of you in emerging as a referee. But I remember the Fiori when when she took charge of the Albany Rover's game, and you know, you have a manager coming out and saying, Oh, she's you know, she shouldn't be anywhere near a man's game, she should be home making her man's tea. I mean, this is only uh 2003. I think you know, this is not we're not going back to the dark ages here, you know. We're talking, maybe I'm sure my agent that feels fairly contemporary, but it's not that long ago.

SPEAKER_00 19:54

You're right. Um I think culture has changed. I think it has, you know. I think we everybody yourselves should take credit for that, putting the women's game in the map. You know, in 2003, I wouldn't think in Scotland um women's football would have been something at the top of the agenda. I don't think it would have had high recognition. I think there's people the SWPL, you know, organisations deserve up the SWF, a lot of organisations deserve a lot of credit that people, you know, are are putting women's football on the map. I'm looking forward in a couple of weeks' time going to the final at First Park, you know, between Glasgow City and Rangers. And, you know, I I think there's now an environment where I think there's an acceptance uh of female referees. I feel that's the case. I don't mean that they wouldn't have used the scapegoat if something happened, but I think there's more an acceptance, more an understanding that that rightly so females are part of the game. I I remember even refereeing um years and years ago, I would have been a top referee at the time, but I had a free week and there was an injury to a referee, and I went to referee uh Easter Scotland game at the time, and still in uni were playing in it, and Shirley Kerr was a manager. That was something new to me. Here it was a woman coaching you know a men's team, so I think we've developed a lot, we've moved forward, as you say, for the early days. Um but even when I was a young referee in junior football at the time, I remember having two assistant referees in the Glasgow Association who were really good at operating and supporting me in junior football. But I have to agree, in at that time in the late 90s, they were subjected to a lot of a real lot of abuse, and I remember having to report that. Um and I think they probably had to have a real thicker skin than the the male referees of the time.

SPEAKER_01 21:38

I think that might still be a conversation that you would need to have uh if anyone is um female referees and you are going into a high profile game, it is going to be this is going to be your first criticism here. You are it's almost like it might not happen, it's gonna be it will happen, it's not gonna be an if the eventuality at some point here is that someone is going to criticize you or. Decision making basically on the fact that you are a female, and it's almost like a pre-emptive strike preparing mentally preparing. Here's how you cope with that, and here are the steps that you take.

SPEAKER_00 22:09

So this Thursday we'll have a coaching meeting of all the female referees in Scotland. We we work with them much more regularly than we ever have, and it's like that support network. When you come into referee and you join a family, there's something special about it, you know. Sometimes for people like myself, you probably lose a lot of your friends you had out with refereeing because I was young and I took it up. And and when I see the the female referee network, they're getting closer, they're they're they're building up groups of mentors, they're that they've got a close group together that I think they can share that identity, you know, and and and work together. But also we know the top male referees at a meeting on Sunday, but I also make sure attending that are the top female referees because we need to deliver the same coaching to them, you know. We need to make sure that they feel equally as part of something. And even when you take everything away, why do I want them at that meeting? Because I want our top officials, regardless of whether you're male or female, to apply the same principles that we're looking at in the same coaching, and they should get the same coaching operating at the top level in UEFA that our top male referees are getting as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

But there's a unique pressure in in officiating at any level. Is that important, that sense of community, that camaraderie that you maybe have that that only another referee can really appreciate if you have made a mistake within a game, can maybe appreciate what you go through to on the other end of it.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, a manager said to me recently that you know it's okay for the refs, they they walk away, it's me it's got to pick up the pieces in terms of the manager if a decision's gone against them. That's that's nonsense. Referees hurt for days on end, sometimes longer, you know, whether you're male, whether you're female, you know. Um actually we in a bit of what we did recently run about mental health in referees, the female referees were probably talking quite a bit about how they struggled to pack a mistake even five, six, seven days later, because perhaps they felt in their mind they had less opportunity to make mistakes to be so successful. Um, and we need to overcome the barriers as well. We need to we need to realise that regardless whether you're male or female, a mistake should affect you the same way. Okay, some people get over it quicker, but it shouldn't they hold you back just because you make a mistake and I make a mistake, shouldn't they be two different things? But I I think only referees understand that pressure and what it's like to make mistakes and feel that you want to quit and no go back, or and it's usually your colleagues who pick you up. Also, in a bit of research recently, I know it's the families that pick us up and the pressure and the extra burden on referees' families. You know, what do we say to the partners of referees? What do we say to kids are referees? What do we say to parents are referees? Because sometimes they're left to pick up the pieces quite a lot when when things don't go so well.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

What was your own toughest moments as a referee?

SPEAKER_00 24:59

Tough moments, I think, where my toughest moment was without a doubt in 2019 when uh I gave a penalty in Rome in a European game. I felt I was in a real upward trajectory and refereeing. Um I think I had a chance to go to Euro in 2020, albeit it was postponed because of Covid. And I gave a penalty kick against Chris Smollen for Roma when I thought the ball hit his face and it hit his arm. Um uh sorry, it's it hit his face when when it uh I thought it hit his arm. Um and at that time the Europa League didn't have VAR two weeks before that, a referee Juventus by a Leverkusen, nothing happened in the game, but it was the Champions League and it had VAR. And I'll be remembered, I think that decision cost me. So when people talk about VAR and the impact it has in the game, I think VAR will save referees' careers moving forward because I think that had a detrimental effect in my career, and probably even now, even out of refereeing you know, almost two years, there's still probably a day goes by where I don't think about that decision, and I remember being in a really, really dark place in the back of that decision. I don't mean a ridiculously dark place, but I remember it being affecting my well-being. I remember it affecting that I want to go out of the house and same when you made mistakes in Scotland or perceived mistakes. I remember being involved in a controversial decision in a top game in Scotland, I didn't go out of my house for two weeks, you know, because that's the reality of the situation we're in. That's why I feel like coming out and explaining decisions and things like the VAR review show have initiated. It's painful at times for referees. I often my wife will say to me, How would you have felt if a head of referee and was coming out talking about your decisions? But sometimes I just wanted to explain it's a mistake, you know, instead of where we are in the west of Scotland where everybody thinks, you know, that there's a big scandal or conspiracy behind a mistake, you know. I mean, which I think is is ridiculous.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

If you come from the West of Scotland, do you always have these accusations of inherent bias? It just seems to be part and parcel. Do you do you think you'll we'll ever move away from that?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

I'm not so sure, Alison. That's a good question. I think it drags us down. I think it's a uh a scourge on us as a society as well. Um, but if you look at my colleague Martin Atkinson, who's been a great asset for us in terms of refereeing, he's working very closely with the referees, made a lot of improvements, was a top referee in England, refereed all the biggest matches, Europa League final went to Euro with me in 2016. He's openly said that the scrutiny, probably within the West of Scotland, looking at the idea of some sinister reason behind decisions is much far, far worse than anything he's ever been able to see in England.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

You're talking there a lot about uh the you know the difficulties and the challenges of referees, male and female. What are the what are the joys of it and the the satisfaction because we need to focus on that to attract people to get into it, especially females want to get into the game?

SPEAKER_00 27:55

I think I'm going to talk almost in a runabout way, back to front. I think it can help your mental health. You know, we're all busy in our everyday job, you get an escapism, going out and refereeing in a pitch, being part of something you love, particularly if you can't play it, particularly maybe if you can't, you're not really interested in um going to watch it, you know, or you can do both. We certainly have got some good, really good female refs in her who are playing. Um, one of them, I won't say who it is, but she's going to retire if you're playing at the end of the season, and that's music to her ears because she's get she knows what a foul is, she's fit, she's played the game, she knows how to talk to players, she knows a wee bit about the expectation and about the level. Common sense application, a wee bit about what we're told at times are missing. You bring people in who've played the game a bit, and you know they've then got a chance to hit the road running. I'm no saying you have to have played the game to be a top referee, that's that's far from it. The world you're oyster known refereeing, you can travel the world. I travelled pretty much, I think I've only got four countries, I've no been to in Europe. Um there's a financial aspect to it. Um to to referee out there at Hamden, a referee in the world stage. But do you need to get that to get the benefits of the referee? And I don't think, you know, be part of something, be part of a family, be part of another part of Scottish football, you know, and and we will definitely guarantee you the positives will outweigh the negatives, you know. Um a trick we've missed, in my opinion, we've always had this philosophy about bring ex-players into refereeing. We've got two top referees, you know, Sean Mudduck, Jamie McCunny, who refereed well in the SPFL, particularly the championship, League One, League Two, who played the game. Where I think we've missed a trick, and where I'm doing a lot of work in the background in now is what about young players that have been left in the scrap peep? Male or female, if you get to 18, you realise you've maybe been signed with some kind of contract and it's not going to work out for you, there's a great opportunity. Come come to us, we can you know fulfil maybe some of the aspirations you had. Maybe no kicking the ball or saving a shot, but blowing a whistle or raising a flag, um, and there's great opportunities there in the game, male or female, but within female refereeing, you know, I also want to say you fan FIFA investing in it big time, as we are, you know, and and and there's great doors opening there. And why no be like the next Abbey Hendry? But you can equally be the next female referee who's refereeing in the public park who's content with that, who likes that. Refereeing Disney always means you need to come into it to to progress. You want to progress great, but you want to just use it as a bit of a hobby, as a bit of a pastime, as a wee bit of an earner instead of maybe working if you're a student or a wee bit of additional income. Their reasons are perfectly acceptable as well.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Would you do you need to be a particular kind of character to be a referee? I imagine it's quite a lonely place sometimes as well. If you think of this place full of 50,000 people, everyone here has a vested interest one way or the other. Bar the officiating team who are walking out, you've got a different perception of everything that's going round about you than every other person in this in the stadium.

SPEAKER_00 30:58

So when you get to the stage here at Hamdena, 52,000 people in their bane for you, what the other thing I'd say that refereeing brings when you come into it is we'll build up your skill set, we'll build resilience, confidence, communication, body language, things that you know are sometimes difficult now to achieve in life or get experience of. Maybe you need to be a strange character. Maybe I'm strange, wanting to be a goalkeeper, they say they're crazy, and a referee may be crazier, even. But I think there's a strength of character, but there's a a desire to be to do well, do the right things. But we also are talking about even if you get to the stage where you're refereeing at 52,000 people, you also need a desire of constant improvement. We're telling all the referees, regardless of the level you're refereeing at the now, it needs to be that hunger, that desire to improve by 1% every day, or as much as possible. We'll give you the tools to be able to improve. But think of the equalities I just mentioned there to you about that. Some people are really lacking them in the current modern world. Resilience, communication, you know, that body language, fitness, even, strength of character, strength of mind, you know, that there's a lot there that you can bring to that, particularly when we speak to young referees, people at school who are doing the qualification at 16. Think of the additional qualities we can bring to you where maybe you need to go years in your life to be able to build them up, be able to gain them. You know, I don't know. Maybe I I read about somebody recently who said that if they they took up refereeing at 16 and if they hadn't built the qualities that refereeing delivers for them or gives them, they don't think they would ever have been a teacher in their life. They thought that actually added to what was able the skill set to be able to go further and in another career as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:41

Are players different just now, do you think, from when you refereed?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Look, I think I think players and referees, it's difficult for me to talk. We'd have brilliant meeting here in January, the the premiership, the SPFL premiership captains. And everybody saw a different side to each other. They saw a different side to the refs, or the top refs are in the room, they saw a different side to me, I saw a different side to them. Why? Because we were away from the 90-minute pressure. You know, whenever referees and players meet each other, it's it's an oppression environment. They want to win, we want to deliver the game. You know, we want to deliver it in accordance with the laws of the game. I think we need to get better. We've got Alice in the new, I'm developing uh within our strategy for refereeing, I've developed a referee DNA. And there's five pillars to that DNA, and the fifth pillar is social. People think we're going to reinvigorate a summer conference and everybody can go and enjoy themselves for three days, and or we might go in a winter training camp somewhere fancy. It's not about that, it's about integrating yourself into the football family. It's about where do we firstly act as role models for other referees, but where do we act as role models just in football generally? How do we build up that kind of social aspect, in other words, when we engage with people? You know, that it can be an us and them any longer. It needs to be a and it needs to be joined up. Football players have not got all the time in the world, regardless of whether you're a male player or a female player, but we need to get better opportunities to listen and run a table to each other and talking and talking away for the pitch. It doesn't mean you need to go and have a glass of wine with somebody or a coffee with somebody or become their best pal, but there needs to be an understanding. I'll give an example where that was said to you, and apologies if I'm wondering off the point. Some of the captains at the meeting that night said to the referees, we feel like in the last two years there's been a bit of banter gone. You know, you don't run up the pitch and say, What about that or what about this? and there might even have been a bit of bad language, industrial languages. That's football. We need to accept that. Whilst we don't encourage it, we sometimes need to accept it. And one of the referees made a great point. When I took up this post, a lot of people said to me, We want accountability in refereeing, we want to hear the audio, we want to see the decisions. Can you imagine we publish a clip of our audio and the referees running up the picks swearing at somebody and then they get a decision wrong? We talked earlier about problems. So when the players heard that, suddenly it was a light bulb moment for them to go. We understand what you're saying. And they made points to us. We also understood where they were coming from and where we need to get better, where we need that joined up approach. The captain-only approach has helped us a lot that referees want to dialogue with captains and want to do the right thing, but we need to be better at that joined-up approach for too long, and pretty much my whole career, it was an us and them, and and that needs to go. Um, and it needs to I think I've built up better relationships with coaches, players. You know, we've even been looking at with meetings, regular meetings, uh, the top women players here, the SWF, the semi-professional stuff in terms of the Lowland League and all that. So we're getting better at that, but we need to we need to make it even better. That's why I've also said we're going to look at some kind of professionalisation of referees. I can't make any promise for that. What I've promised the referees and the various league bodies is in the year 2026, we will put a paper together to see here's what a proposed model could look like. We're never going to have full-time referees away in England. We don't have the finances, but could we do something different? You know, a part-time, you know, a hybrid model. Um they're definitely things we need to look at.

SPEAKER_01 36:14

That's very interesting. So maybe not entirely full-time referees, but there would be a commitment to a professional standard almost.

SPEAKER_00 36:21

So would it be one day, would it be two days? You know, do we get out and a book to cubs in one of the days? We would need an intensive programme, a looking at decisions, a training programme. The reality is we're there a lot of that the now, but we're also asking referees to do a lot of that, and I can speak for experience with juggling your family and juggling your job, and in refereeing at the very top level of the game now, including the people Abby Henry, you need a very understanding employer, you know, you need you need that, um and family, and family, and and and the referees will tell us that at times as well, you know. Um but I also say to them anybody that reaches the top level in any profession makes sacrifice, and that's just where you are. If you don't want to make that sacrifice, then you maybe need to accept the top level, isn't it, for you? But I don't think anybody in top football would accept, you know, that we won't be making allowances to reach out. You need to make sacrifices. I know I did, it's not something that you can necessarily say you're proud of, but I can also say I would never have made it to the level I was at if I hadn't made these sacrifices.

SPEAKER_02 37:31

The only who are playing a professional, in a professional environment, at professional standard, but they have full-time jobs and things like that. Just in your in your career as a referee, who was the if you can put me on the spot a bit, but who was the most memorable player you've ever refereed against?

SPEAKER_00 37:47

You know, I I I I refereed um the top players when I was a teacher in the school, kids would be keen for you to tell them about Ronaldo and Messi and what they were like, and um and in answer to that I always said to people to try and keep people grounded that football players are people like me and you. They've got talents, they're probably very wealthier than than than certainly me, I don't know about the two of you, but um they're they're very wealthy. But they they're successful in what they do, but they've got talents, and I always encourage young people to think about regardless who you are in life, you've got talents. So I was never overwhelmed by players, never, ever, ever. You know, it was great to say you'd refereeed games with the best players in the world. I remember Suarez refereeing him with Uruguay one night in Poland and a friendly and he single-handedly destroyed Poland, you know, and also uh I refereed Shewchenko when he played at AC Milan and and also in his second spell at Dynamo Kiev, and he was excellent as well. So he'd be on the pitch with some of these players, you know, is is great. Um they were testing at times, you know, players are testing regardless of who they are, but also as a as a football fan, I saw up close people's skills, people's talent, you know, Messi scoring a free kick one night against Olympiakos, and they were their special memories. But to go back as well, to be very clear, I never ever thought I'm refereeing this player the night, I'm going to do something special. What I did have to do is manage personalities, and that's another thing we coach referees on is we don't just say everything is simply black or white, right or wrong. You've got to coach to deal with different personalities, and again, that's that's that's what right that's what football's like. The way any is we deal with different personalities in our everyday work life or in our family life. You've you've got to manage people differently.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Just a bit uh left of field. We saw last weekend, I don't know if you all have seen it yourself, at Chelsea, the referee finding himself in that huddle. What would your advice have been there to the referee in that?

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Maybe you get under it. I know Paul Tierney well when get out of it. Um look, you know, it's probably another bizarre thing it happens in Fitball into it, you know. Every week you think there can be something else that comes, but um what I would say again is though, referees are out there, they do their best, make the right decisions. As a referee, there was no better feeling than coming off a pitch knowing you were right and nobody was talking about you. Sometimes people say to me the best referees or the best way to analyse a performance is when people don't talk about you. But you're really you're at the mercy of the players. Because if the players don't do anything that leads to something that could be talked about, then that's great. But if the players do something that leads to you being talked about, you can't really avoid it. So I'm never really by that. It's the same, you know, a referee'd no yellow card, so that means they were good tonight, does it? Does it? If they've missed three yellow cards, it would have been given in another game. So I don't sometimes you hear all these phrases in in football used, and when people really step back and listen to it, does it really make sense? I'll give you one last example that I'm I'm telling a lot of people about the now. People say to me when VAR is in operation, you can he celebrate a goal being scored. So you get a vision of 52,000 people in a stadium, and they all sit their hands and say, VAR's on the night, so we better now celebrate. I was here, a stone stove for here when we played Denmark, and I don't think there were many people in the stadium, even me who's got a referee in background, who said, let's no celebrate this goal and wait till VAR's checked it. So I would ask people as well, journalists as well, when they talk about things in refereeing to talk about VAR, don't just jump the bandwagony some of these phrases when you actually step back and listen to them, do they really make sense?

SPEAKER_02 41:27

I think maybe fans would say though that they it's in the back of their mind that there's like a they will celebrate, but there's like an trepidation because they know that maybe that's coming up in the room.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

And when think about that, you get two chances to celebrate a goal, then you know I'm sure if there was a VAR check in Scotland had scored and it was a second check, there would have been an equal amount of cheering. I think where VAR gets the criticism undeservedly is that we also don't want to go back to a stage where somebody loses a crucial goal that we a TV camera, but looking at a TV camera would have fixed it, you know. People say to me, again, it's probably not really a modern way of thinking, people all going down to a pub after a football match, but people say, let's go back to the days we went to a pub and we could all debate and talk about it. Come on, you know. I I don't think the days ever really existed because somebody was so furious, and if you could see in the tele that it was clearly wrong, it wouldn't they have said, well, football's better because we're no using technology, you know. I know there's downsides to var the times or checks and whatever, but I think it far outweighs again that phrase I've used earlier about other things, the positives far outweigh the negatives.

SPEAKER_02 42:36

Do you miss being out there in the thick of it on the pitch? Do you miss that more than the classroom or the other way around?

SPEAKER_00 42:41

So I was out the classroom for about nine years and I missed that as well. I was in the headquarters for nine years. I miss all aspects of my old job because I have a real desire in my life, regardless of where I go, improving outcomes for young people, you know, and their families. It's a real passion of mine. Sometimes that's why I want to for 16-year-old referees and bringing lower and age. I want refereeing to be for all, I wanted to bring things to people's life because sometimes sport brings people out of dark, dark places, brings about difficult environments. Do I miss it? I was really frightened when I was offered this job. I remember saying to my wife, I've been in a pitch for 31 years. What about my mental health? I was really worried about it because it was like a drug to me. I loved it, I loved all the training, um, I loved that there was minute moments she didn't want when things didn't go well, but again I just there was a high. And the strange thing is I don't miss it, and that's quite a strange thing for me to say, and I'm surprised I'm saying it. I think if I had retired for the pitch and continued my old job, I think I would have struggled. But this is the next best thing for me because it's not about me, I'm gone. Sometimes I wish the media would remember that because my name still seems to appear more times than I would like it. But the reality is I'm gone. This is about the new generation of referees. I want referees. To achieve more than I ever achieved. I want is to get somebody a World Cup. I want is to get a female referee a major tournament with an assistant referee, Kylie McMillan, at a the Women's World Cup as an assistant. So I want all these things, but the one thing I miss is that driving back for the game, you know, and that feeling. I've never been able to replicate that. The best I can get is watching a referee and the game goes well, or turning to Martin Atkinson in Navarre and saying I've survived another weekend, but I can never replicate the great feelings that that I had. But like anybody in sport, it has to come to an end at some point, you know. So but if you ask me, would I want to get dusting the whistle and the boots and run about there? I'd probably have two hamstring injuries, two calf injuries. I'm still training merely to just keep me alright here and alright round my waist. But um apart from that, no, I don't I don't I've I had my time, I but I firmly believe if I was to summarise it in a sentence I would say this refereeing doesn't owe me anything, and I don't think I owe refereeing anything. Um that's that's where I would summarise it and sum it up.

SPEAKER_02 45:06

Yeah, no, it's been it's been a really good conversation, especially talking about the women's side of stuff and the referees, and you've made some really interesting points and things that people maybe didn't think about and things that maybe we didn't think about as well. So it's been a really interesting listen. I'm sure people will really enjoy it. Thank you so much for your for your time, Alison. Has it inspired you to become a referee? I think my hamstring would go to your pacifist. I get it as an assistant, I'm looking for assistance.

SPEAKER_00 45:32

But I want to genuinely thanks to yourselves as well, because it's very few people come to us and talk to us about female refereeing, you know. Maybe part of that is not so much they don't want to, maybe they don't quite know how to go about that, or you know, is it everybody's a bit thinking is it the right thing to say or whatever, you know, but but we want to we want to move it on. I'd say to any um you know girl or woman out there that thinks about coming to refereeing, you'll be made welcome and and we would want to support you and and come and get a try, you know. I think there's great opportunities and come and get a bash and see where it takes us.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

No, it's been great to speak to you. Thank you so much for your time. Thanks to Alison as well, and thanks to everyone for listening.