Do Engineers Deserve Royalties? This Gets Controversial

Do engineers deserve royalties, points, or publishing on the songs they work on? We break down both sides of the debate and discuss when engineers should be treated as service providers versus creative partners. We cover leverage, contribution, risk, and what it really takes to earn backend participation in today’s music industry.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

What's going on guys? We're back again with another episode. As per usual, my name is Derek. I'm Doc. So today we wanted to discuss royalties. So in music, it's very common for producers, uh songwriters to receive royalties on many records. But you don't really hear so much about engineers receiving royalties on records as much as producers or songwriters. So we wanted to discuss today whether or not engineers actually deserve royalties. Should it be a more common thing? So what do you think? Do you think uh engineers deserve more royalties for the work that they do?

SPEAKER_01 0:39

I speak on my own, I guess from my own perspective and my own experience. I think it really depends on the like the agreement right from the beginning of the record and the expectations. I mean, I personally think it would be nice to get some royalties as an engineer. However, I also understand that people usually, you know, it's more of a paid service. Like you're a part of the process, but you might not necessarily be as much of a creative force behind mixing, but it's also creative, but it's a very different creativity than, for example, a producer might have. It's like a weird space where I think some records yes, some records no. Depends on the how you guys, you know, what the agreement was between the artists. I personally get some royalties on certain records. Um, I think like depends on depends on the artist as well. Usually, okay, I would say like this. I've definitely had situations where people would approach me and they like, you're gonna get the royalties, but we're not gonna pay you for a mix-in. Right. And I would say, okay, show me the royalty statement from for last year. You know, so it's one of those things where I'm like, I don't mind necessarily maybe cutting my rate and get in the percentage of the record. But like it needs to make sense, right? It needs to be, it needs to, it needs to make sense in the in a way where I'm not gonna mix a record, spend, you know, whatever, even record, mix a record, you know, master, spend 20 hours, 24 hours, whatever it's gonna be, spend a whole bunch of time on it. And then my royalty for the year is gonna be$50. Yeah. And it's gonna take me 20 years to recoup, you know, like it doesn't really make sense. Definitely, definitely. Um, but I also understand on the artist side that you know if the artist is a if artist is serious, obviously they're gonna spend X amount of money on the promotion, marketing, and all that stuff. But realistically, a lot of people just don't, you know, don't have budget for marketing. They overlook that side completely.

SPEAKER_02 2:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

So again, it's like it's a weird space where it comes down, it really depends on the artist, depends on the on the management. Like, there's so many different variables to that to that thing. I know big engineers, they definitely get some some uh uh royalties for sure. Um I think Jason was talking about it. Many yeah, so they all have like I don't know the percentages that they get. I don't think it would be more than five points. Yeah, I think it's probably closer to two, three, maybe like a percentage. But then again, if if a record is a 10 times platinum record and you get 2%, like that's still a pretty nice, yeah, uh, nice, you know, change in your pocket. Yeah, but I feel like because engineers are also a big part of the sound of the record, I think there should be some type of uh, you know, some type of percentage. And again, it doesn't look, it doesn't have to be 10%, it doesn't have to be a lot. Just one, two percent is fine. You know, just have that in the catalog and you have multiple records. One time you check the statement, it's like, okay, this song made you uh 300 bucks, this one, this song made you a thousand, this song made you a this, this so it's like it just cumulates and you just like have it in the account, right? Yeah, and I think it would be nice when you especially when you uh you know put a lot of effort and work in those records, you know. But that's just my opinion.

SPEAKER_03 3:59

Yeah, I agree. I think it I think it really depends on the level of contribution that engineers are making to the record because there are a lot of engineers when you work with them, all they really do is they press record and they call it a day. You know, so not they're not very involved with the creative process of creating the record, or if they're mixing, you know, they just mix it to get it done. They're not really adding their own sauce, they're not really trying to improve the record. But on the flip side, there are many engineers, and I'm sure you do that, I do this sports. Like if we're mixing a song, you know, we're we're taking the arrangement into consideration, we're taking creative effects into consideration, reverbs, delays, like even sometimes production things like we might remove something, you might add something, you might go on Ableton, add a little one-two here, do a little one-two there. So these are all creative choices that engineers make. And I think when it comes to that, when we're so creatively involved in the record, I think when it comes to that situation, then we do deserve some kind of points. But ultimately, it does depend on the conversation that you have with the artist and the agreement that you guys have, and you know exactly what you're gonna be doing on the record. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Yeah, I I I think everything you said, I completely agree. I I just I feel like we live we have like this weird space too that sometimes when you start doing more of a like some production on the record as an engineer, the producer might not like yes, yes, yes, you know, so it's almost like you have to find that middle ground and figure out what they really want you to do, even when it comes to creative stuff, arrangement, and stuff. Sometimes artists, producers, whoever's involved in the record don't want you to even touch it. Yes, they just want you to mix it, preferably the same as a reference.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Yeah, yeah. Just match the demo. Just match the demo, match the demo, make it better, but just match it, make it the same, but just make it better.

SPEAKER_03 5:58

Yeah, make it sound better than the demo, but it has to sound the exact same.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Exactly, you know. So I think it's uh yeah, it's a little bit of a tricky thing. But I feel like for me at least, most of the times that I'm getting some type of royalty stuff with the artists, is because I've built that relationship with them. Like I've been working with them from time and like we know each, we've known each other for you know quite a long time. They know my involvement, they know that I care, and like they, you know, they want they want to give me a little bit more because they understand the work and everything that I do, right? Yeah, uh, but if you work with uh with somebody new, I mean it's not if they pay you your rate, it's really up to them if they if they like, oh I I really like what you did. This is like 1%, 2%, and all that. It's like it's almost like a tip on top of what you're getting, right? But it's not mandatory. I think it's kind of like the same thing with the tipping culture, right? It's like if something becomes a standard and people just do it normally, then it's like you wouldn't really think about it. It's just like, oh yeah, I'm just getting an extra 1% or something, right? But you know how this music industry works, especially when you deal with the labels or like managements and like people on the higher end, because the money comes from the percentages, they look at it different. It's like if you already got paid, you're not getting paid anything more.

SPEAKER_03 7:16

Yeah, you know, so yeah, but you can say the same thing about a lot of producers, because a lot of producers they get their flat rate, but then they also get the percentage on top of that, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:26

So it depends. Like, I I know a lot of, and again, sorry for to cut you off, but like I know guys that work with the record labels, they got they had like you know, uh some work done with the with the labels, doesn't matter which label it was, and they would say, I want, you know, 5k, 10k, whatever the the price would be, and the label would be like, nah, we don't pay those prices. Right. You know, or they they tell them straight up, it's like either we're gonna give you advance and you're not getting any points, or we're not giving you anything and you're just getting the points.

SPEAKER_03 7:58

So you're saying you say one or the other.

SPEAKER_01 8:01

It's never it really depends on combination of it. I'm not saying everybody, but there are situations where those type of things happen, right? Music industry is a weird industry because there's no standard. That's true. There's no standard for like one person, they might come with you if you're a bigger, you know, producer, engineer, they're gonna talk to you differently. When you like don't have certain credits and stuff, they're gonna talk talk to you differently, right? So it's like a lot, I feel like a lot of uh a lot of uh producers on the come-up that had a chance to, you know, send their beats to this guy, this guy, or like get stuff with the record labels. Let's say your stuff gets placed, there's not really much you can do because you won that placement.

SPEAKER_00 8:43

Right, right. So it's like you're gonna do anything for that placement to come out. You know, if they're gonna sometimes people don't even think about their rates.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah. You know, it's like they just wait and kind of see what happens. Yeah. You know, so um, yeah, I mean it's uh yes, no, there's so many different, you know, so many variables to this.

SPEAKER_03 9:03

It's very situational. Let's just say it like that. It's I think at the end of the day, like, like it's not like engineers are ever entitled towards it, it just depends depends on the project, the level of involvement, and the business discussion before you guys start working on the project. If maybe if you're working with a bigger artist, they have good numbers for streaming, and you know, the artist maybe you could work out a deal where it's like, oh, you know, I'll cut down on my flat rate a little bit if you give me some extra points, or vice versa, you know.

SPEAKER_01 9:32

So it can always be worked out. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It's just a matter of conversation, you know, and like where things are going. So I mean, again, it is one of those things where sometimes you might make money, sometimes you might lose money. It really depends how the record is performing. And I I guess it's one of those things where you know everybody's trying to justify paying this, paying that, this rate, that rate, this is too much, this is not enough, and all that stuff, right? But everybody got their own bills at the end of the day that they have to pay to run their business. Whether it's an artist, whether it's an engineer, whether it's a producer. So it's like I feel like money exchange is just is just a form of appreciation. It's like you did something, you know, service, but you pay something, you can continue doing your thing, I can continue doing mine.

SPEAKER_03 10:18

You know, so I think I think my biggest, I think the biggest issue that I maybe have around like royalties is just the fact that I think when it comes to certain people or or certain stigmas, it's like you know, those people where it's like, oh, engineers should never receive a royalty. Like, what are you talking about? Like there's that kind of conversation sometimes amongst people where they're like, why would an engineer ever deserve a royalty? Like, that is insane. I think that is something that should not be like thought of that way.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

100%. But I also think it depends on what engineers. Some engineers might not deserve a royalty. No, I agree. Like, I when I make certain records, I'm like, I don't even feel like I deserve royalties. I just did my thing. I just like, you know, you want me to do this, bam, bam, bam. I did my thing. I wasn't really too creative with it. I just knew I just used my knowledge and everything, my expertise that you what you wanted me to do this, I just did what you wanted me to do. Yeah, yeah. I didn't feel like I need, you know, you pay me for my service, you're happy, I'm happy, we're good. Yeah, yeah. You know, but then it's like if I'm working with certain guys and they like, they like, yo, I want you to suss it up. You just have your own thing, just do your thing, or like, you know, right now I feel like in a in the past maybe like two years or so, I have more people that when they when we start work, not even when we start working, but when we work on something, they would tell me that they want me to be more of a collaborator, right? More than the engineer. They like they want me to be creative with it. It's like just do your thing. If I don't like something, we can always like you know, move it, remove it, or like bring it back, or whatever we need to do. But it's like out they just want me to do what I think is right for the record. You know, and in those cases, it's like they usually like, oh yeah, I'm gonna give you the extra, you know, this, that, that, that.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

Yeah, that makes sense. I think it's more so just like I think it should always just be an open conversation. And um, I don't think it should ever be immediately just like, oh no, what are you talking about, bro? Like, that's crazy. Like, why would I ever do that, you know?

SPEAKER_01 12:09

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. I think you know, it's just one of those things where with some people it makes sense, with other people it doesn't. Um, and sometimes it's not even about the numbers, right? Because when you have when you work with somebody that you know that they have potential and you can you can you see you see a vision, it's like you can you can be like, you know what, okay, you know, I'm gonna figure out something, give me this. And like I would say, if you're if you're like the developing somebody, I would take more than just you know, I would go, I would go on the master points. You know, I mean, like, I need this much from the master. I'm gonna give you, I'm gonna bless you, but like I need this. Yeah, so it's like, you know, because sometimes it takes time, it takes time for the records to like, you know, start doing the the things, right? But if if there's something there and you like you can have that piece of intellectual property within your reach, hey, why not? Yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_03 13:01

So so if you're working with artists, like would you prefer to take a combination of points and your rate, or would you prefer like one or the other?

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Like, what would you I mean it really depends? I think it depends on like how I work with the artists, what type of how we vibe, how like the whole atmosphere around the work is, right? Because some people just kind of come in, do one project, you're never gonna see them again. That's true. You know, when you have people that you build something more than just mixing the record to or a project, then it's like you know, having that partnership in a sense, it it makes a little bit more sense in the scheme of in like a grand scheme of things because you feel more involved or I feel more involved, and I want to do more because you're you're personally like investing in the record.

SPEAKER_03 13:52

Exactly. Yeah, that's true. That's true. So, what would you consider is like so you know how we said in the it depends on the level of involvement in the record, yeah, and it would require more like creative work. So, what would be your definition of like creative work? Like what kind of things would you consider you doing on the record mixing-wise that would give you points on the record that goes above just like doing the basic stuff?

SPEAKER_01 14:18

I mean just m taking the record to the to the next level, you know. You get a demo and like the demo is fine, you hear things, and it's like, oh it's cool. But then when you really tap in into it and you and I might add like extra extra effects or do like some extra layers, maybe do even like as you said before, a little bit of production or something. Uh build transitions, build all the automation, get the vocals, you know, cool, give some cool effects to the vocals and do like some things that the record benefits from, and somebody hears and like, oh, I'll I never thought this record can sound like this, right? You know, comparing to what a demo was. I I think those those type of things really um really matter, in my opinion, you know.

SPEAKER_03 15:00

So apart from mixing, so do you think a recording engineer could ever get points? Or should they ever deserve points?

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Are they are they doing vocal production? Are they building harmonies with the artists? Are they like, you know, maybe switching the lyrics a little bit more, tighten up the things? Like, if they're doing some type of vocal production, I think for sure they should be getting something. Okay. That's just my opinion, you know. But again, it's uh it's a thin ice when it comes to this conversation, right? Because like everybody's gonna have their own view on those things. And again, most of the time, managements and the labels, they don't even want to entertain this conversation.

SPEAKER_03 15:36

100%, especially for like a recording engineer. Yeah, definitely. For sure. What about a mastering engineer then? Have you ever heard of a mastering engineer getting points?

SPEAKER_01 15:44

I personally have not. But I wouldn't say no to that. Maybe some I I have no, but the thing is that the big mastering engineers, man, they they charge, they charge like they charge a bag, you know, a bag. Like even on the independent side, like if you're gonna go with uh like a big mastering house that you know has billions of streams and plenty of records on the radio and all that stuff, I don't know what the rate would be for like uh major side of things, but I know how much they charge for like independent. And a lot of these guys are like, you know, anything between four to seven hundred bucks just for mastering. You know, I there's guys to do 200, 300, but uh a lot of guys, you know, the those top top guys, right? That everybody always talks about, and they always busy too. Right. They they like always booked up. Yeah, they are um, you know, six seven hundred bucks USD is like two billion dollars Canadian, you know. So uh I think spend uh I I think a lot of times is like if you want to go with like a big mastering engineers, uh sometimes your mastering budget is gonna be what your budget was for a mixing. Yeah. You know, so it's like, and there, I'm not I'm not even trying to discredit guys because like you know, they do a great job, but I think many times, man, these guys work like three hours a day in the city.

SPEAKER_00 17:05

Master engineers? Yeah, call it a day, you know. I mean, bam bam bam.

SPEAKER_03 17:08

I I I've watched some of the like the mix with master tutorials. Yeah, bro, it's like some of the stuff, like, don't get me wrong, like they have great equipment, they have amazing rooms, and yeah, not to discredit anything to do, but it's like sometimes they're mastering records in like 10-15 minutes.

SPEAKER_02 17:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 17:23

And it's like some simple stuff. If you get a really, really great mix, yeah, sometimes all they're doing is just throwing on a limiter, maybe clipping a little bit, adding some saturation, slight EQ moves, and it's it's done.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Call it a day. It's call it a day. You know what I mean? Money in my pocket, you know what I mean. So hey, I'm not even looking I don't even hate.

SPEAKER_01 17:41

I I think it's like if you can make money without like overworking yourself, 100%. Yeah, you know what I mean? Might as well. And again, look, if people are willing to pay you, and it's like, I think the the mastering side is not only the sound itself, it's the expertise. It's like they know what is right and what is wrong. What they want to hear, what they don't want to hear, and because they've mixed so many, they've mastered so many records, it's like they know those common points. You know, I need to target this, I need to make vocals like this, I'm like to do this, I gotta make do I gotta do this and that and that, right? So it's like sometimes, I mean, you know, if it takes if it takes like 10-15 minutes, you know, it is what it is. I mean, even when you're looking at it's a completely different industry, but let's say like uh engineers, like the the construction engineers, they pull up on the on site or like electrical engineers, they check around, they look around. Um, Brandon told me a story one time when he was doing like electrical work, and I think he was working electrical, and he said that on site, there was like one of those engineers. They had an issue for two days, they couldn't figure it out. Yeah, and they had to call this guy who charges like 15k just to show up. 15k to show up.$15,000. This guy fixed it in five minutes. 15K to show up.$15,000 to show up. That's crazy. And he came and he looked around and it's like, okay, this is this, man. Yeah. Turned on everything is back to work. That's crazy. But they couldn't figure it out for two days. Yeah. Right? So it's like, okay, you're paying somebody a lot of money to figure out the issue. Because at the end of the day, it's like, it doesn't matter how long it takes to fix the issue.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

Yeah. As long as the issue is fixed. As long as the issue is fixed. It's true. Right? And it's like, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah, you can you can try to figure it out for the next week or so, but then it's like you might lose more money than just paying it one time and getting it done. That's true. And I feel like even I'm pretty sure you have those situations where guys would go to somebody cheaper to get it stuff to get the stuff done, and then they would go back to you because they like, oh, it doesn't sound the way how I want it to sound.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

You go, you know, because I was looking for something cheaper, right? So the cheapest option is never always the best option, man.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

The cheapest option is always more expensive.

SPEAKER_03 19:54

It's true, bro. But you're right. At the end of the day, it's it's all about getting the job done. So even if it takes 15 minutes, 10 minutes, five minutes, bro. If it sounds good, it sounds good. Look, I mean all that matters.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Let me tell you something. Even on my on uh my experience, I used to work with this one guy. You know, I would get the stamps, he would record the record, everything was like recorded, ready to go. I would spend like hours. I would spend like 10 hours because he was like, yo, I want the the best mix. He was always going for the top mix. So I'm like, okay, cool. So I'm like, you know, I I we did a record, I sent him the reference. I'm spending like literally 10, 15, 20 hours just tweaking, doing all this stuff, doing the extra throws, reverbs, this, this, checking it. Like, I'm literally like spending a whole day working on the record. Yeah. And all I hear is like, yo, but it sounds dope, but yo, can we just get it back to like how it was in the in the reference? Like the first bounce that you sent me, like I was feeling it like that was the one.

SPEAKER_00 20:49

And I'm like, man, I could have saved Larry.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

I could have saved the whole entire day and paid the whole the same amount of money because he didn't care about how much he's paying me. He just cared about getting it sounded the way how you wanted it to sound.

SPEAKER_03 21:02

No, I feel you, man. And I think that's one thing that I've realized too about mixing, as the more that I'm mixing, the more I realize like, because when I I don't know about you, but when I first start mixing a record and I'm like in that like flow state, and I'm not even really thinking about what I'm doing. It's just like I'm hearing stuff and I'm just doing it. You know what I mean? And it's just like it's like that for like the first like maybe hour or two. And then maybe after the first hour or two, when I get everything, the foundation done and everything done, then I'm like really kind of hyper-analyzing. Oh, let me try like a throw here, let me try this thing here, this thing here. But then I realize sometimes it's like you spend that extra two, three, four hours, five hours, whatever, doing all this little stuff. But then you sometimes the first version that you did when you're kind of just in that flow state is actually the best version because you're not really overthinking anything.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

Yeah, I I I think when it comes to that, it also comes down. I I don't know about you, but that's what what I think about me when I do those things. Attention to so many things, and I want to get the dynamics in a certain place, and I want to get the depth in a certain place, the stereo imaging. Like, there's so many things I'm trying to put in a certain place. Yeah. Where even sometimes when I send mix to uh to a client to an artist, they don't focus on all those things that I focus on. Yeah, that's they focus on the vocals gotta be loud, the reverb has to be heard, and the kick needs to hit. Yeah, the bass has a slap. You know, and like that's the only things they pay attention to. Yeah, and for me, it's like I'm trying to like curve the space here to make sure like the strings are here, and like you can hear the pad in the back, and like I'm doing all the you know dynamic EQ in the back, like I'm doing all those things, and they like they don't even care about this, yeah. Right? But I feel like because though those things in the like I think it's also about the the listening experience of the records. Many times, as I'm saying, people just pay attention to the to the very base of the record. And the thing is that the crazy thing is that the base is always gonna be the very first thing that hits you. Yeah, you're not gonna be paying attention to anything else. But I still think if you're gonna do all those extra layers and all those extra things when it comes to work and you're gonna listen to it, close your eyes, and just enjoy the way how the record sounds, then you're gonna appreciate all the extra work.

SPEAKER_03 23:20

I would say though, like definitely the main parts of any record though are the vocals, the kick, and the bass. And maybe like the snare or a clap if there's one, you know. So I think once you have all of those things in the right place, everything else will can kind of just forms itself around it. Yeah. The foundation. That's true. You know, so if you have those things always hitting the bass, hitting the vocal slapping, most times that's actually what people pay attention to. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, clients.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

Yeah, I mean, I I think it also is I think it's also dependent on the on the genre that you work with. Because I feel like hip hop is gonna have a different uh that's true, yeah, different principles, you know, for example, than um dance music or house or country or anything else, or rock, pop, and all that stuff, right? Every genre is gonna have its own space. That's true. So yeah, that's true. That's true. Cause like even for me, like I always find myself when I mix country, for example, I always cause I like when the the record is driven by the kicks. For me, it's the kick and the bass is what I'm looking for, right? But then I realize sometimes with country records, it's not about the kick, it's not about the bass as much. You know, so it's like I need to, it's almost like I need to change the way how I think about something, and I need to find the balance where I'm like, okay, the kicks are there, and I shouldn't be focused on the kicks as much because even though it bothers me, I know it isn't a good place to what the records demands it to be, you know.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Yeah, that's true. I think definitely if even for like rock records, like if you're listening to a lot of the the old school rock records, it's never about like the kick or like the snare. It's like when you really hear is like the guitars, the guitars are panned mad wide. There's like the solos, and they're just like right up in your face with the vocals, you know what I mean? Yeah, so it definitely depends on the genre 100%.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

I watched this uh it's like a little documentary. I believe it was dropped by Focus Right. They have a YouTube channel, Focus Right Two, yeah, I believe it is. And uh it just dropped a couple of days, maybe two, three days ago. It just randomly popped up on my on my um uh YouTube. So I was like, you know what? I was walking home, I'm like, let me watch this like 20 minutes long. So I'm like watching it, and I got so inspired by it because it it showed the story how you know those big uh focus right consoles, the blue ones, I forget the name of it. Uh but they like they were like popular back in like 80s, 90s. And there's only a couple of them in the world, they weren't like you know commercial, commercially made like uh SSLs and Leaves and all that stuff. And that that focus right was specifically designed by Rupert Rupert Neve as well. So they said he left Neve and then uh he started working for Focus Ride, and they wanted to like you know get a console or like get preams originally that sound like this, this and that, so he designed the whole thing. But what I'm trying to what my point of the whole thing is I think nowadays, when I was watching it, I realized one thing. When you listen to music nowadays, and when you listen to like music from the 80s, you know, 90s, and like the the old school era of music. Back then, the reason why music sounds better is because everything around to get it sound certain way, it was just done with a certain precision of engineering. And I'm not saying nowadays things are not done with the this precision because things are also done certain ways. The only difference is that nowadays everything is mass-produced. Where back then you can have like a custom specific this studio, we're gonna build exactly this equipment. So I feel like what I wanted to talk about is when you listen to records nowadays, you go on Spotify and you listen to playlists, you listen to a bunch of records. Does it feel like everything just sounds the same? Yeah. Yeah, to an extent, yes. You know, because everybody, I at the end of the day, we all use the same tools. We all use, you know, the waves, the SSL, whatever, whatever is out there, everybody uses the same plugins, fab filter and all that stuff. And again, I think majority of people moved from hybrid setups or analog straight digital. So everybody's just in the box. So if you're gonna get that channel strip from Waves SSL, and you're gonna put this on this comp this Mac computer, and then you're gonna have exactly the same Mac, uh exactly the same channel strip, you put it on the Windows computer. Those are two different machines, but those two channel strips sound exactly the same. They do, they do. You know what I mean? They sound exactly the Sonic character is exactly the same. Where back in the day, it's like uh every single module is gonna have its own variety of sound. Yes, every every console has a different sound. Exactly. Even though something might be exactly the same console. You might have a SSO 4000G in this studio, another 4000G like in another studio, you know, but I think the consistency of the sound is not gonna be It's not the same. But it's like even though the consistency, consistency might not be exactly the same, it doesn't mean that it's bad or better or worse. Yeah, it's just different. It's just different, it's just different, yeah. You know, and I I feel like those, even like with certain records, I feel like this is one thing that is missing in the modern uh in the modern mixing. I'm not gonna say every single record, but a lot of records are missing it. Sometimes when I close my eyes and I listen to a record, like when you listen to Backstreet Boy's first album, you close your eyes, you can see the room that it was mixed in. Like you can see it. It's like you know, you don't okay, you don't see it, see it, but it's like you can envision like how it was, the color, the space, like there's so much depth in the whole record. Do you know who mixed it? Uh I don't remember. I checked the credits, but I forgot who mixed it. Um but what I'm trying to say is that you close your eyes and you kind of see certain things. Like you see the placement of the microphone, you see like there's so much more information around music. Same thing with Michael Jackson. You can you can see the movement, you can almost like you can see how far he was from the microphone.

SPEAKER_03 29:43

You know? Do you so I agree with you on on the mixing and the recording, and and back then it had its own flavor. But do you think it's also the reason why things also sound the same these days is because so many artists are just mimicking other artists, like there's no individuality, there's no creativity.

SPEAKER_01 30:02

100%. I think that's also a big part of it. Because there's like I'm pretty sure there's much more artists right now competing for the same space than back then, right? Because back then you have to be in uh either a certain group of people or you have to be within a certain budget that you can like make things work. Exactly. Where nowadays, like everybody can just go get a 2020 for 200 bucks, yeah, focus right. Shout out to focus right, but the OG Focus Right, you know?

SPEAKER_03 30:30

I think you know, I I I was having a conversation the other day um with someone about this, but you know, back then in the 90s and the 2000s, like you know how these days there's so many clones of the artists, like there's like Drake clones, there's like the weekend clones, there's like all these different clones. Like back then in the 90s, if you ever try to clone someone else like that, that would not slide, bro. It might be Phil Collins clone. Yeah, but that's just like immediate beef. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? But these days it's just there's so many clones, and there's so less, there's like so much less individuality in in music and artistry. And yeah, I think that's just really contributing to everything sounding the same because it's like people will love the weekend, but then they'll try to sound like the weekend, but then it's like even if they're mixing the record, they're like, oh no, like you need to match the weekend, like listen to the weekend record. Like, I want it to sound exactly like the weekend, right? I want it to not be exactly like Drake.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

I got a record like this right now that I'm working on PD.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

So, yeah, man, I think that's why everything sounds the same, bro.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

It's it's uh I I I think everything you're saying 100%. I agree. I feel a lot of artists are scared to try new things. Yeah, it's almost like they want to get stuff sounding familiar because this is what everybody else are used to, but they are terrified of trying just to like come up with something new, different, and like everybody always say, Oh, I have the different sound, this and that, but it's like you're trying to do exactly the same thing that everybody else are doing. Yeah, man. You know, but everybody have that, oh uh, I want to do a different sound, I want to do this and that and that. But it's like if you really want to do something, I feel like out of a lot of guys that are out there, I think Magee would be one of those guys that he didn't care about making stuff sounding like everybody else. Like he actually created his own sound. I agree. The guitar tones and like even the studio, like all these guys record everything analog, they have like Tascom um tape and all that stuff. So every hear it in his music. Yeah, yeah. You hear the noise, bare noise, like in the stuff, but it's like it's because they are not like they probably use a little bit of uh digital stuff and all that stuff just for but maybe even mixing, they might be mixing everything analog, whatever they do it, it sounds different than everything else.

SPEAKER_03 32:42

And that's why Justin Bieber literally used him to produce a lot of his album. Yeah, 100%, 100%. You know, I mean saucy, bro.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

It's like 100%, and that there's the thing, it's like just doing things differently and being more experimental, being more open with sound. And like, you know, sometimes sometimes we see it in the comments too on the when you guys comment stuff, and there's a whole bunch of people that are always like, Why would you use the analog? You can just do it in the box. Yeah, it's like okay, yeah, we know it, but this is not the whole point. The whole point is trying to do something that nobody else is doing, or like trying combining other things, getting things done in a different way. And even as an engineer, I don't know about you, but I mean you have a whole bunch of gear too. For me, when I engineer, when I work and stuff, I am fully aware, 100% aware. I can just do everything in a box, I know it. It's not like I'm trying to like go against everything that I know. Look, I can just open Pro Tools and have speakers, and that's the only thing I'm gonna focus on. No summing, no nothing. I don't need to send anything anywhere. But it takes away my fun of engineering. Like, I want to have fun doing this, like I wanna, I wanna feel like I'm actually doing something. Like I wanna, I wanna move on my chair, I want to go to the rack, I want to move the knobs, I wanna like touch it, I want to feel it, I wanna print back the reverb, I wanna print print back the delays, like I wanna do those things, and like, yeah, I understand it takes time, it takes more time because every I see a lot of guys who are like, why would you do it? It's like you just uh you know you just have to work longer, blah blah this and that. It's like, yes, I get it, but it's like there's a fun aspect of things when you do those things, when you print things back. And I feel like when you start working with equipment and you actually print things back or recall things, it might seem like you're doing much more, but then it's like you don't want to keep doing it back and forth, so you're locked in. You like do this, this, this, and I'm like, okay, I'm gonna try to work around this idea. Right, right, right. Where you have plugins, you don't care, you can just keep moving left or you can switch the plugin, move it left and right and right. It's like there's no I don't want to say no value to it for the ideas, but it's like you don't feel that pressure that you need to like, or you don't want to like keep going back and forth.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Yeah, I feel that. I think that's a good argument for analog gear. Like, I completely agree with everything you're saying. In a in a world where everything is becoming even more digital, digital than it already is, and people are losing individuality and people are just going straight digital, uh plugins, whatever it might be. I think that is the push for analog because analog could be what sets you apart and makes you have a different sound from everyone else. Because if everyone else is going digital, if you're one of the few people who are still using analog, that's how you start creating something different, right? 100%. Yeah, so it's even if it takes longer, even if it might only be uh 1%, 2%, 3%, whatever difference, like at the end of the day, it still matters because it allows you to get out your creativity and get out your own unique sound that other people might not have. 100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:42

And I feel like when it comes to the gear as well, the gear is only getting more and more expensive.

SPEAKER_03 35:48

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

You know, especially in the past four years, like everything went up like 40-50 percent. Yeah, it's crazy. Like prices are insane, yeah. You know, so it is. I think uh, but I think it's also because less and less people are buying it, so it's only they doubling up the prices because they still gotta sell the product, but they understand that right now less people are gonna buy it, but there's gonna be a market for people that are willing to spend more money.

SPEAKER_03 36:14

Yes, I agree, yeah. I agree because me and you we will spend the money if we want the piece of gear. Yeah, unfortunately.

SPEAKER_01 36:22

But it's like I can't even I can't even uh be mad about me spending you know the money on certain things because even last time when uh I I changed the tubes to my uh Avalon 747 and I got like uh I got one Mollard tube and two Philips SQ tubes, and they like top of the line high-end top high-end tubes, right? Luckily I got it for a pretty good deal. But normally it's like it would run me like for those three tubes, it would be around 500 bucks. I think even the five around 500 for three tubes, right? I got it for much less. I found a guy that has OG tubes, but like he charges much less. But what I'm trying to say is like just by switching the tubes, I shifted the way how things sound, right? And I I was like, before everything sounded fine, but then when I changed the tubes, I was like, oh, there's so much more depth to it. There's like the top end is more sparky, but it's like in a good way, it's like the I push things, and I'm like, I'm not hearing the distortion anymore that I was hearing before, you know what I mean? So it's like having all those little things that give you more variables when it comes to sound, it makes you sound different. Because right now I know one thing there's not another unit out there in the world, probably, Avalon 747, that has the combination of the tubes that I have in right now. Really? You don't think so? I mean, I don't think so. Damn, that's crazy. I think so. I personally think so. I'm not saying like those two, they not necessarily okay. The Phillips tubes are rare, not the Mullers, like they easier to find. The thing with the the Phillips tubes that I got, they actually from the 60s. Because they are NOS, they like new old stocks. So they were never used, but they were produced in 60s. I see, I see. You know what I mean? So and already, like, I need to uh I ordered like I got that, I put it in, I was like, yeah, I like it. So I told the guy, I was like, yo, I'm gonna get the he has four more tubes, Phillips. I was like, yo, just hold them for me. My boy's gonna pick him up, and uh, I'm gonna like change the massive passive as well to those tubes. Well, what tubes are in the massive passive right now? I think it's either JJ's or electroharmonics, whatever the the ma the stock plot tubes are in uh massive passive. Like manly they don't use like like you know, they grade equipment, but a lot of a lot of gear that uses tubes, like even uh universal audio, they don't put the top end tubes in it because it's gonna run them much more money. They want to sell it at the reasonable price of this loot, like they sell for an extra couple of hundred bucks, right? So they're gonna go with the JJ's or like soft techs or like any of those tubes. Uh, but then if you want it, if you really want your gear to get to a little bit different level, you gotta buy like more expensive tubes, you know what I mean? And again, the difference is not huge, but it is huge, if you're trying to say. Yeah, I completely get that. You know, so yeah. So yeah, so I I think when it comes to just making things sound unique, I I I think again, ears is also a part of the thing, right? It's like if you hear things a certain way, that's gonna make you yeah, it's about your taste, right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:26

Yeah, I mean, I guess that's that's what I wanted to talk about. No, I think that's a good part, man. I think it's a good part to wrap up uh wrap it up.

SPEAKER_01 39:33

Yeah. You wanna do it? Yeah, thanks guys for watching. This is episode, I think it's number 12 right now, no? Yes. We have more guests coming up because uh the OTR episode uh is doing pretty well right now, too. So uh shout out to OTR one more time. But we gotta we're gonna get we're gonna bring a couple of more guests, couple of more engineers, we're gonna get producers and uh some other guys uh involved in the music industry. But anyway, uh I hope you guys enjoyed it and we're gonna see you next time. Thank you. Peace out.