FrancisGotHeat On Producing For Drake, Getting Placements & Producer Deals

In this episode, we sit down with FrancisGotHeat to talk about his Drake placement on “4422,” the reality of getting producer placements, networking in the music industry, producer deals, royalties, publishing, and why understanding the business is just as important as making the music.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Yo, what's going on, guys? It's another episode of Behind the Console. We have a very, very special guest today.

SPEAKER_03 0:07

Yes, sir.

SPEAKER_01 0:08

Francis. Oh, I should introduce myself, but we don't have to introduce ourselves because it's all about him today, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Oh, thank you, bro. Thank you, bro. Francis got Heat, uh, multi-platinum, uh, Grammy nominated producer from Toronto. If you don't know, now you know. Yep. Thank you for joining us today, bro. Thank you for having me, man. My pleasure. Yes, sir. I guess we could start off. Just um, you could just give a brief introduction about yourself, maybe a short story of how you came up in the Toronto as a producer.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

All right, yeah. I'm not I'm always terrible about like doing this part. Ain't talking about myself, low-key. But uh yeah, no, I'm a music producer from Toronto. I grew up playing instruments from when I was like three, four years old, like you know, Asian shit, piano, violin, all that, drums, saxophone, all that. Um, I started producing when I was like 13. Uh, I seen this. One of my friends sent me a video of Ryan Leslie, just like amazing, like multi-instrumentalist producer. Shout out to R Les. Shout out to R Les for real. He was in the studio cooking up, right? And then I was watching the video. I'm like, yo, I play all these instruments too. Like, yo, let me let me try something right now. So I downloaded like um what was it? Like Magic's music makers, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

I don't know what that is.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

No, Magic's with an X, bro. Yeah, yeah. Magic's with an X, bro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that. Just cooking up this one shitty beat, bro. I'm like, yo, this shit. I thought it was fire. I'm like, yo, I want to do this for the rest of my life. So I just kept cooking up. I off that first beat, bro. I'm like, this is my job for the rest of my life. And then yeah, it just kept going from there, and then you know, uh, I I got lucky, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

I don't think you got lucky, man. It's uh it was a lot of hard work, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 1:48

No, definitely put in the work, but I still feel like I I there's some luck involved. Yeah, yeah. Like, come on, I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

But I feel like it's like you know, you're you're very talented at what you do and you're putting the work in. So it's like you could maybe a little bit of luck, but it's also you were putting yourself in the right places at the right time for the right opportunities to come to you. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 2:08

No, no, no, I get that for sure. Absolutely. And you know, I I know I'm well aware that I put in the work in different, you know, fields, whether it's like the actual making, the music, or like the networking side. I know I put in the work on both ends, but I don't know. I just feel like everything just came together like it was luck, bro.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I feel yeah, I feel yeah. So uh what what DAW are you primarily working with today? Is this FL FL Studio? Oh, of course, bro. Okay, okay, of course, FL Man. That's the go-to. That's the go-to. You think uh you think DAW matters in like 2026, or you think just anyone is good as long as you learn how to use it?

SPEAKER_02 2:43

Bro, dawg, I don't think daw ever really mattered, bro. Maybe like 20 years ago, you know, but especially not these days, bro. I see people cooking up crazy shit on Band Lab. That's true, or like, you know, um people even cooking up on their phones and shit, bro.

SPEAKER_00 2:57

You know, yeah, that's true. But FL has that, you know how people say FL has like that knock? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think that is something that is very specific to FL though. Like you could probably try to recreate it in other DAWs, but I think it's it's like I don't know what it is, if it's the DAW itself or it's like the plugins that you use, the clipper, the FL clipper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I feel like there is like a certain sound to the drums that hit a bit harder in FL.

SPEAKER_02 3:21

For sure. I think it is the clipper. Um, because I've tried other you know plugins. You guys probably tried a bunch of different clipping plugins, hard clip, soft clip, doesn't matter, but like I don't know, man. The FL default clipper just hits different than all of them. It does, man. I don't know why.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yeah, I don't. I think uh even Jason Joshua, he tried to like recreate the FL clipper. He had like uh I forgot it was it was like a mix of like this clipper and this saturator, but he was like basically recreating the FL clipper in Pro Tools, yeah. But yeah, it's a it's a legendary sound though for sure.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah, yeah. Signature bro, signature sound, yeah, yeah, 100%. I have a I have a question. Yeah. So when you started working with magics and all that stuff, and you was like, I'm gonna be a producer, how long did it take you to like get your main like major breakthrough in your career? Oh from like the time that you started to like something that you was like, okay, I'm doing this right now. It depends what you mean.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Like, you mean breakthrough as in like a placement or some shit?

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Or like something, it doesn't have to be a placement, but something that you was like, it made you believe in what you're doing. Shit, I might be crazy, but I always believed, bro.

SPEAKER_02 4:33

I should have but I know what you mean. Like, um, I guess um getting into I guess remix project or like meeting like Rich Kid and him telling you like, yo, you're nice, bro. You need to go check out remix shout out to remix, yeah, yeah. Like that was probably like a point where I'm like, okay, so I knew the ideas were good and like other people liked them too at that point. So it's like I just need more uh I guess reps, you know, get more reps in. Gotcha. But like, yeah, I was saying that was probably I was around 14 then. Damn, you was young. Bro, I started when I was like 12, 13, you know. Okay, yeah, so yeah. You started making beats when you're 12? Yeah, well, that's really young. Like going into grade nine, however old you were, like 12 or something. Damn, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 5:17

So so you were learning it by yourself in your crib, and then you ended up going to remakes after. Is that what happened?

SPEAKER_02 5:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was just uh, you know, just online. Like there was no tutorials back in the day. So basically you download the plugin and you just you download it. Let in the rip. Yeah, you just make bullshit until shit sound good. Right, right. Like um, low-key when I first started, like I got magics and I got mixed craft. I didn't know about looping. So like I would be there making a song. If the song was like three minutes, I'd be playing three minutes of piano.

SPEAKER_03 5:49

That's great. I'd be playing three minutes of drums front to back.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah, yeah, I didn't know about looping, and then my bro came in one day. Hey, what are you doing, bro? Bro, you know you can just take the best eight bars and just repeat it? I'm like, oh shit, bro. That's crazy. Yeah, I didn't know about looping, so you know, like damn, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

So would you say uh like so from after remix, then what happened? Like, did that open a lot of doors? Like, did you meet a lot of people there? Is that what happened?

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Um in remix, uh, a lot of shit happened during remix, I guess. Um, I did it with uh Wonder Girl. Actually, like we knew each other prior to remix, but then um we just hooked both happened to be in remix at the same time. So we just spent like six months like cooking up like all every day, basically.

SPEAKER_00 6:36

So you guys were in the same class together, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:38

We're the same. Shout out to Wonder Girl. Yeah, shout out to Wonder Girl. Shout out to Wonder, man. She she the goat for real.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

For real, for real.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

And then um we did that. We also did the beat battle together. Oh, yes, yes. Oh, yeah, I remember that. That definitely helped me help me re put on the map.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Was that the beat battle that she won? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that, yeah, yeah. That was a big thing. That was a big thing when she got it.

SPEAKER_00 6:59

That's the one that is that the one that helped her get that Jay-Z placement.

SPEAKER_02 7:02

Um, I mean, I didn't think it helped her get that Jay-Z placement, but it happened right after that.

SPEAKER_00 7:06

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

But uh, yeah, no, that was a crazy year that in the battle, because like me and Wanda first round, the two 15-year-olds get matched up against each other because we were a triple tiebreaker, you know. So that helped that helped me so much, even though I lost. Like that shit took me on the map in Toronto so much. Like a lot of people were hitting me up, uh local rappers, but still to me at the time it was like huge deal, you know right. And then uh yeah, we just kept me and Wonder just kept cooking up after remix, and then um a couple years down the line, like we just got a bunch of songs out in a row, like major shit, and then it just kept going and going.

SPEAKER_00 7:46

That's sick.

SPEAKER_01 7:47

That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Is the Toronto is that B battle still is that still happening today?

SPEAKER_02 7:53

It still happens, but um, I don't think it's as significant as it was before, right? When I was coming up, it was kind of like a rite of passage. If you was a hot like producer, you would do a battle, you would do that battle, like right. T minus, boy wonder, Arthur McArthur, like they're all in 1985. Like, we all did that battle.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Yeah, you know, it's like a legendary line of of Toronto producers, you know.

SPEAKER_02 8:19

It was literally a rite of passage. If you're one of the guys or you did that shit, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like that's crazy. But these days, like you don't really need it no more. You got the internet, all of this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah, so what was like the first uh I guess major placement that you had uh after this whole thing happened then, or the first first big artist that you worked with?

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Um to me, let's see. Um depends how how big you want to go, you know, with it, right? Um, I did like a bunch of like Isaiah Rashad and like Ab Soul songs. Okay, Isaiah Rashad's fire, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Before I did like the Drake and all of that stuff. At that time, I thought that shit was major. Right. Some people wouldn't not count that as major because they're not like super big artists, but to me, like well at that time was Isaiah signed to TDE?

SPEAKER_00 9:03

Yeah, yeah, they were all signed. That's I think that's major.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

Yeah, yeah. That's super major. To me, it was like major like milestones in my career.

SPEAKER_00 9:09

Yeah, that's super major. But yeah, super major.

SPEAKER_02 9:12

But that would be probably like some of the first joints that came out. Right. Yeah, a big label.

SPEAKER_00 9:17

So so what's the story behind like how 4422 came came to life? How did that record come about? Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 9:23

Um, yo, I actually made that beat in high school. I was in grade 12. Oh, so you were sitting on this beat? Yeah, yeah. I I was sitting on it, like I was sending uh beats to like uh to like OVO back in like grade 11, grade 12. Oh, okay, consistently, you know. Um, so I kept kept sending. I was like, one day I just sent 4422, and then they hit me back like right away. They're like, yo, uh hold this beat. I was like, Yeah, just hold that. Like, we like it, like hold that. I was like, sure. That's crazy. And then that's probably like 2013, 2014, they held the beat. And then a couple of years later, I'm in LA chilling, and Oliver hits me. He's like, Yo, you still got the files for this beat?

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Oh, so so it was a couple of years since he sent the beat by the town.

SPEAKER_02 10:08

Yeah, no, essentially, they said hold that, and then three years later, like, yo.

SPEAKER_01 10:14

Don't sell the beat for 50 bucks, you know. If you send it to somebody, don't sell it for 50 bucks, you know?

SPEAKER_02 10:19

One of the weird ones, like, you know, if Drake says you'll hold that, I'm gonna hold that, bro. I send it out nowhere. And it's like, yo, y'all heard the record 4422. Like, there's no one else I can really send that to, you know. It's just for him. Like, I was making those because like they asked me just for interlude shit, like no drums. Right. I was sending that shit, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_01 10:37

So when you were working on it, did you specifically made it for him? Yeah, that was on your mind? Every time that I was like sending, like okay, so it was intentional. It was like I'm working, I'm working for like that sound, Dra Drake sound.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Okay, so you made it for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 10:52

I sent some other like interlude ideas prior, and they're like, yo, this is cool, just keep sending more no drums type shit. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, I got you.

SPEAKER_00 11:00

Right. So I guess for you that's uh that's that's kind of like your forte, right? Because you play piano, you play a bunch of instruments. So for you, is you is you just cooking up like that's like your your uh zone, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah, I I guess so. I guess um back then, maybe that was more my zone. Now I'm like the opposite, bro.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

Oh really?

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Yeah, now I'm way more drum focused. Oh, interesting. I'll be using a lot of like melodies and shit that people send me rather than like making my own now. I see. I don't like my melodies. I'm not gonna lie, I don't. Why? I think they're boring, bro. Because like I made them, so like I'm used to my my shit, you know?

SPEAKER_00 11:36

So so are you so you're cooking up more with like uh samples that you get from other producers, but are you still creating samples yourself and sending them out to other people as well for collaborations?

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Uh sometimes, not as much as I should. But like it's hard, bro. It's hard for me to make a melody that I actually like that I think is even good enough to send out. If like realistically, it probably is, but like to me, that shit is all boring, dog. It's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

I have a question. Um I think it's just something that uh you know younger producers can um give your insight on. How do you feel the production game change since you started to what it is right now? Do you because right now it just feels like there's so much, so many producers, every everybody's you know, sending samples, everybody's doing drums, everybody's like, hop on my thing, this, this, this, this. Like sometimes you see records and just like 30 producers credited on the record, you know? Like, how how do you feel about the the switch up in how the or like what do you feel? What is the major change of how it used to be and what it is right now?

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Um, it's definitely way more collaborative now. 100% way more collaborative than back in the day. And um, it's easier than ever to get credited as a producer. More so than ever. Like, people will literally be in middleman or an AR, like be like, okay, I'm gonna just pass your loop along and they'll get a production credit. You know what I mean? Or just be like, I sent the beat. Okay, I'm gonna slap my name on it, or whatever the case is, or like traditionally, let's say I hired someone to like play a bass or guitar, like now they're gonna get a production credit rather than a session player. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

Which like I'm not necessarily against, like, you know, get your bread, like get your credits, but um but then it's like if there's if someone is a session musician, then you pay them for whatever they do and you pay them for the service, and then they get a production credit and they get the extra percentage on top of that.

SPEAKER_02 13:32

That's the thing, there's not really session players anymore. People that back in the day, what we considered session players, now they come in as a producer, yeah, yeah, yeah. Even though they might play the role of a session player, yeah, yeah, yeah. But now everyone involved is a producer.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

That makes sense why there's so many people credited as a producer on the on the credits.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

So, like on Spotify, if someone's just coming in to play a bass, are they actually labeled in Spotify as producer, or is it like a different label?

SPEAKER_02 13:58

I think Spotify just introduced like roles, yeah. So it depends what they wrote on the sheet, yeah, realistically. But these days, yeah, if you were an instrumentalist with something, you probably get credit as a producer. Wow, that's crazy. That's how you negotiated with whoever brought you in.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Right. Or I guess it depends on like how big of a session they are, right? Like if you're bigger, you could probably negotiate some kind of credit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. So, what would you say is like the main difference between an amateur beat and an actual professional beat? Like when you first listen to it, be like, Oh, I can tell this is amateur.

SPEAKER_02 14:33

Nine times out of ten, you could just tell by like the sound selection. Like uh yo, you could just tell when someone using like the default sounds that comes with a die. You know what I mean? Garage band like you know, you can always tell like oh that's like the default like garage band piano or the bass or like the drums that come default in FL or some shit. Like you always tell and like obviously like how things are leveled and mixed too. Like it doesn't make sense more times, right? You can always tell from like just sonically, bro.

SPEAKER_00 15:07

Just sound selection. I guess part of that is like your trained ear, your just expertise over time of making beats over and over again, right?

SPEAKER_02 15:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Like the more, the longer you do it, like you're just gonna get more expensive sounds, bro. You know what I mean? For sure.

SPEAKER_00 15:22

So, what are some of like your favorite plugins that you use these days for uh making beats?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

Plugins, uh a lot of one-shots, bro. I love one shots. Okay, yeah, one shots and like FX is like the way to go, I feel. But um, obviously, anything analog, like emulation-wise, like Arturia does great, uh Roland, they do great work too. Um, yeah, anything analog, obviously, you know, Omnisphere is always fire. Anything Spectrasonic. Right. Uh have you tried the new Omnisphere? No, not really. No, I've seen it. I've seen people use it, but which one is the new one?

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Is it like three or something?

SPEAKER_02 15:57

Omnisphere. Two or three.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I think three, yeah, yeah. Three? I know three two was out like for at least a couple of years. So it must be uh I had two. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah, they have three now, but but yeah, I never tried it either. But I heard people say good reviews about it.

SPEAKER_02 16:08

Yeah, I'm not a like uh heavy like omnisphere user. I've never really been, but I've been more like native instruments, like contact bank and shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. I think they just got bought out or some shit too.

SPEAKER_01 16:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, well, they almost went bankrupt and then somebody butt them out. I forgot the the the corp that they that butt them, but uh it's one of those like other plug-in companies, and everybody's just changing hands, you know. I mean, from this to this. So NI though, they always show love. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Uh so do you think in 2026 do you think Toronto still has its own sound? Um because back then there was like that dark that you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 16:51

But nowadays like everyone on the outside, not from Canada or Toronto, still thinks of that sound when they think of Toronto. Right. You'd be surprised how many sessions I'll go to in LA, whatever they ask me for some Toronto shit. Oh, the people still ask for that. It's like, yo, give me some Toronto shit. And I gotta ask them, like, what do you mean? And then they'll say that, like they're that dark shit. I'm like, yo, you know, I don't even cook that shit no more.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 17:17

But there was time, probably like 2016, 17, 18, that everybody wanted Toronto style. Wherever you go, people from LA wanted the Toronto, like everybody, the whole world was like, yo, Toronto, Toronto sound, you know.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

Toronto was doing all the hits, bro.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:34

In the 2010s, bro, they did all the hits.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 17:37

I feel like these days, there's no one even really in Toronto making that sound anymore, is there? I don't think even think it's that popular.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

I think it is popular, it's just like nothing is hidden. You know, I I feel like there's a lot of people still, even like when you when you watch uh Instagram, like uh sponsored posts and all that stuff, you always see people posting stuff. So I I feel like the sound is still there, but again, this sound been around since like 2010s, like early 2010s, right? Yeah, so it's like you know, it's 16 years, bro. So it's like if you think about it from that perspective, it's like imagine you're listening to like uh technically it's an old school sound. Yeah, yeah. If you think about it from perspective of time, right? So it's like you can be doing this, but it's like, you know, you have new people that are just looking for new new sound, you know.

SPEAKER_00 18:27

Yeah, there's that one artist, he's from um he's American. Oh, what's his name? Cari. Oh yeah, from the bay. Yeah, from the bay, yes, yeah. He's I was like listening to his recent project and I was surprised at how Toronto it sounded. I was like, this guy literally sounds like he's from Toronto.

SPEAKER_02 18:41

No, for sure. A lot of people think he is from Toronto, yeah. He signed to uh wasn't Chubbs or some shit. Yeah, he signed to Chubbs, yeah. He signed to Toronto, man. Oh, I didn't know.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

He spends a lot of time out here too. So true, true. And he's always references like the six and like everything. So I'm like, oh, is this guy from Toronto? He's from the Bay.

SPEAKER_01 18:58

Yeah, but I feel like there was definitely time in that period that there was bare people from from states that came to live in Toronto, you know, UK to live in Toronto, like there was just men's pulling up to Toronto just to live here, you know? So 100%.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

That was like the golden, golden era, man.

SPEAKER_02 19:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like we were the hub for a minute. Like how Atlanta is a hub and all that. Like Toronto was a hub for like two or three years, bro.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

Yeah, yeah. Do you do you feel that just looking at the world right now, just overall, what what is what's going on in the in the music scene, do you feel like all the cities kind of lost? I don't want to say lost the presence, because like everybody's kinda still doing their thing. New York is doing their thing, LA is doing, like, you know, Toronto, we still doing what we're doing. But it feels like there's no like one city that is really putting like a sound for the world, you know. I mean, like everybody's kind of in their own places right now, if that makes sense. Do you feel like that? Or yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

I don't feel like uh anyone's really like super dominating like it was. Yeah, I would say like pre-COVID or anything, you know. Like before, like Atlanta was super hot, LA was super hot, Nashville, and like Toronto was super hot, but post-COVID, like everything kind of just simmered down because I think everyone just learned to work on their own and their own ways and shit like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah. UK had a little nice run too, like right post-COVID.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

Yeah, and then uh who's pushing that. Yeah. So but now I feel like it's I don't know, everything right now, everything kind of feels like it's a like a bit of I mean Iceman just came out, so that was the biggest thing. Yeah, but before that, I guess everything was kind of just like at a stance, especially in hip-hop, but you know, especially.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

I I feel like even with Iceman, if we're talking about Iceman, let's just throw a one, two. Um, and there's no shots or anything, but I feel like I've never seen internet so divided. Because you have as many people saying that it's great and so many people saying that it's shit. You know, I personally think it was like Iceman, like, you know, it's three projects. I think Iceman was it was good. There's too many beat switches, though.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

I was surprised at how many beat switches. Every song had a beat switch. I was like, damn.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

I was listening to it, and like at some point I had to check what song I'm listening to because I didn't know where I was in the so I'll skip to the side. Yeah, I didn't know which where I was in the in the actual project. Because even when you go from the from like the songs, there's no like breaks, there's no gaps, and because of the switches, it's like you don't really know where you are in the in the thing, you know.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

I thought I thought it was a good project though. I think it's some of Drake's best work, like in a minute.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

I I think it's probably best work since Scorpion, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah, I can agree. Solid project, man. Very solid. I like that he was actually like rapping, yeah. A lot of like rapping songs, bro.

SPEAKER_00 21:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can tell he actually put thought and like effort into his pen on this. Yeah, yeah. He had a lot of shit to say to a lot of different people, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:54

Yeah, it took me like probably like two listens to be like, okay, you know, this shit's actually fired. Yeah, yeah, yeah. First listen. I was going through it and like that was cool, it's some good production. Bars were good, some corny shit, and then like kept playing it. I'm like, yo, this shit kind of odd. Well, it's catchy, dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:10

But I think that's the thing with Drake, right? Like, I feel like the way how a lot of stuff is with his music, you need like two weeks for it to like settle down, and then you start hearing it in your head. I remember when the worst behavior dropped. I heard it for the first time. I was like, what is this garbage? Like, yeah. I was like, I don't like it. Within like two weeks, that was the only song I was bumping. Yeah, that's crazy. That was like, yo, I had it on repeat so much, bro. It was actually insane.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Worst behavior is a crazy chip. Yeah, yeah, for sure. It was so different when it came up with production, all of that. 100%.

unknown 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

And I think for for this Iceman, too, I think Forty was more involved, right? He was posting a lot of pictures of him in the studio working on it and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 22:47

Yeah, possibly. I don't know. I'm not like more mixing-wise than musically.

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Yeah. I feel like the mixing on this project is a lot better than um what's one part of some sexy songs. Like this one's way cleaner.

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Yeah. At least on Iceman. The other ones, there was, I don't know, there was like questionable things when it comes to vocals that I I was hearing, like some weird stuff going on on the, I think it was the is it Habib T.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

There was one where it sounded like his entire voice was like a telephone filter. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

A full song. But it was like the lead vocal. Little birdie. It's not like it was like time stretched. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can hear the artifacts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. What do you I want to know? What are your guys' thoughts on doing that? On like that big of a commercial release, like using old vocals and just stretching it. Like, I get like probably the average person wouldn't know, but like I picked on that shit instantly.

SPEAKER_00 23:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think time stretching vocals works within like a certain amount of BPM. You know what I mean? Like if you start pushing it like 15, 20 BPM, then you're really gonna start hearing the artifacts. But I mean, if it works, it works, I guess. I'm I've no beef against it personally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

I feel like it's definitely I I think hip hop might be a little bit different. I know in EDM, these guys just time stretch it like to the point where it's like, you know, it's just everything is time stretched, you know. But I I think yeah, when it comes to hip hop, it's definitely a little bit different principles around the vocal and how it's supposed to sound, how it's supposed to be treated, right? So um, I mean, it is what it is, you know. Like, I don't really have any specific stance on that, but it definitely like when I was listening to it, it's like I've noticed it like immediately. I was like, there's definitely something going on there.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

Yeah, yeah, 100%. Do you so do you do like a lot of um pulse production on record sometimes where it's like you'll send a beat to an artist, they'll record something on it, but then they'll send you back the vocals. But yo, can you add a one-two? Like, here's my vocals, you can build around it. Does that happen a lot?

SPEAKER_02 24:38

Um, I wouldn't say a lot, like I would say for the major artists, I don't get that opportunity because like I'm not tapped in with them like that, I guess. But for like the smaller artists, um, yeah, if I have the chance to, I will always do post-production. Okay, especially like how I make beats these days too. Like, always need post-production, bro. I basically send you the idea. I don't send you like the full record or I send you an idea if you like it, like we'll just keep building off of it. So I'm gonna have to do post.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Right. So so when you're arranging the beats, then do you just like build an eight bar and then you just loop it back and forth, or do you actually like arrange the beat thinking like, oh, the like the verse could come here, the hook could come here?

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Like, yeah, yeah. I'll have like a like an outline of like, okay, I think this could be the hook section, this is where the verse will be. But sometimes from the recording, they might flip it or just go wherever they feel right feels right, and then we'll just rebuild it off that.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

Okay. So so your process in general is like you start what these days is like you start with looking, cooking uh samples, looking for samples, and then adding the drums.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Yeah, yeah. Okay, mostly, yeah. Sometimes like I'll randomly be inspired to make my own melody, or I or like I'll hear a sound, I'm like, okay, no, like this is fire. Let me do something with it. Right.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Oh, so you still like add other sounds on top, like like instrument-wise, like oh yeah, always piano, always.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

I always try to add uh something on top of the sample too.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Okay, that's fine.

unknown 26:03

That's fine.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

So, how do you feel about these days? You know, so obviously, you know, back then um producers obviously were getting paid a lot more money for beats, right? But these days, because of beat stars and beat leases for $30, $50, it's kind of saturated the whole market for everyone. So, like, what are how do you feel towards that?

SPEAKER_02 26:22

I mean, yeah, it was it's hella saturated now. It's super tough. I mean, you can still demand the bag, you just gotta be able to back it up and prove it, bro. Like, you can't be just you know, like fresh out the game first placement, be like, you know, I want a 20 bag, they're gonna like what's wrong with you, like you know, put in some work, like do the build up whatever credits you have, and then like when they know okay, this guy's a certified hitmaker, then you can go and demand in bigger fees or whatever, and like fill up more times they'll pay it, or they'll negotiate down to whatever makes sense, right?

SPEAKER_00 26:57

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 26:57

But um, even the way the deals are made now, I don't even think producers fully understand what they're signing.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yeah, yeah, because like technically you're not getting a fee, you're getting an advance. So they'll take that whatever advance, and then they're like, Oh, I'm not getting paid, the label's not paying me. Not knowing, yo, dog, you asked for 20, they gave you 20, the song recouped five, you're not getting paid for 20 years. G.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

How does that work exactly?

SPEAKER_02 27:23

So if you get an advance, they're not paying you five thousand dollars for the beat.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

They're at they're loaning you five thousand dollars, right? And then we'll start paying you your royalty once we get the five thousand dollars back off of your three percent of the song.

SPEAKER_00 27:37

I see, I see. Yeah, I see. So is that usually how like deals for you are are these days, is a mixture of like the the advance and then the percentage, or do you only take uh just a straight flat fee?

SPEAKER_02 27:48

I mean, always percentage, bro. That's like the bare minimum. If they're not offering a percentage of anything, they're literally trying to rip you off. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

What if they give you a super like crazy advance or something?

SPEAKER_02 27:58

Yeah, I mean, only in the Korea, in the K-pop and stuff, they do buyouts. Buyouts, yeah, they'll buy you out, but like they pay big money, so I I'm not even mad. But um, these days, low-key, um, I don't know if I should even be saying this.

SPEAKER_01 28:13

Say it. Say it.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

It's better for other producers to know, I guess. Like, uh, I try even negotiating a fee rather than advance. So that way it's like I'm not you're not loaning me money, you're actually paying me for my work, and then from day one, I'm generating royalties. So that means you're already recouping there's nothing to recoup at that point because you're paying me a fee rather than advancing me money.

SPEAKER_00 28:35

Oh, okay. That makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

But everyone can't do that, obviously. Once again, you gotta build your reps, get some credits to where they know, like, okay, this is a for them it's a safe gamble.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Right, right, right. So would you say though, like generally that budgets for uh a lot of artists or even like labels have they decreased over the years, or would you say it's been relatively the same?

SPEAKER_02 28:57

Um, it depends on the size of artists, uh, really, but um, I would say in a in a way it has decreased because the way that the money is being managed is like different now. Some of these deals are weird, bro. Like they'll give an artist, they'll sign an artist say a hundred for like two albums. So that means you get 50 an album now, right? And that includes and you gotta pay taxes and all that stuff, all of that market it in, marketing, you gotta pay for production or whatever, yeah. And then, like in their deal, they'll be like, whatever's left over, you could keep. So now the artist is really trying to penny pinch that's some of his bread too, you know. Right. So, in a sense, yeah, the budget is kind of smaller because like he's trying to eat off his label studio budget, too, you know?

SPEAKER_00 29:42

Yeah, yeah, right. I feel like 50k for an album is like nothing, man.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

I mean, on a major artist. For a major is nothing. I think on the independent scale is like it's a lot of money, but not for a major artist.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, okay, you do it 50k as a major artist.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

Yeah, that that goes by marketing. Yeah, that's crazy. That goes quick time. Yeah, oh, for sure. I have a question for you. Um regarding your I don't want to say future, but have you ever thought about just becoming the producer artist where you build your own thing, work with the artist, but everything is under your name?

SPEAKER_02 30:17

Yeah, no, I've definitely thought about doing that, like putting out songs under my name and stuff.

SPEAKER_01 30:22

But like maybe DJing down the line and stuff. Uh I don't know if DJing's for me though.

SPEAKER_02 30:26

I thought I I saw you DJing, no? Yeah, yeah, yeah like I technically I could DJ whatever, like not great or nothing. Yeah, I could do it, but um putting out songs for me is tough because like uh I like working with album, like with artists on their albums and stuff. I don't like doing marketing and all that shit, bro. Yeah, fair enough. If I put up my own music, I'm gonna have to start doing campaigns and shit.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

It's true. It is a lot of work.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

Yeah, I just like making music. Literally, I just like making music, bro. I like helping people with their visions because I don't necessarily have a vision. I'm not gonna lie. Really? No, I just like make music, bro.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

I'm not really that much of a thinker. So for you, it's like if somebody approaches you and they give you something, you kind of just like build around it, then things come to you, or yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty much. Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Interesting. Pretty much, but I would like to put out some music, maybe singles, but I don't really have aspirations of doing my own album per se. Gotcha. Because I don't feel like right now, at this point in my life, I have like a story or a message or whatever it is I want to put out. And I think that's the whole point of an album. Yeah, you know, and I don't really have that going on right now. Gotcha. Makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 31:36

What if it was like a collaborative album? So not like your album, kind of like a DJ Khaled kind of thing, but it's like you and one artist, and you guys are putting a collab album out together, and then you're splitting like the marketing, you're splitting the distribution, like whatever it is that.

SPEAKER_02 31:51

Yeah, I'm super down for that too. Like, um, I've always wanted to like executive produce a project, yeah, exactly. Top to bottom for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. On like a bigger scale, I've always wanted to do that. And like at least with that, like there's like a concept for the album or something already there, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I guess it's just about finding the right artist, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:11

Yeah, yeah, that's always the hardest part, bro. Like finding a sick artist that like you could do a project with and like that has that same drive and all that is hard.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

Yeah, it is hard.

SPEAKER_02 32:22

Yeah, because artists just appear and disappear.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

You know what I mean? That's like needle in the haystack, bro, these days.

SPEAKER_02 32:29

Yeah, yeah, yeah, man. Yeah, there's so many talented people, but like not everyone wants to put in the work, you know? Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_00 32:34

I think I think that's one thing we've like seen the most. It's like you'll meet someone who's so talented and has so much potential, but it's like they don't put in the work or they're not doing the necessary things to make themselves blow. And it's always like when you see that kind of situation, it's like it's like just so like disappointing. Do you know what I mean? Because you know like of the potential that they have as an artist, right? So yeah, it's I feel like we see it very often. No, not very often, bro.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah, especially nowadays. I feel like there's people just coming up all the time. Yeah, you know, it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Coming the content is so fast, bro. You got like what six seconds to make that impression. Yeah, like it's hard.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

It's like it just even when it comes to uh it's just it just feels like there's so much stuff at all times, you know. I mean, like sometimes when I scroll on Instagram, I see so many artists like you know promoting their things. And there's definitely some cool stuff, like I've definitely heard some cool stuff, but then some of the stuff I'm like, man, I don't know what's going on here.

SPEAKER_02 33:31

Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. It's too I I mean, I don't want to be a hater. I mean, anyone can make music, but it's like kind of too easy to make music.

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Yeah, yeah, you know what I mean. I mean, look, even the crazy thing, I was working with one of my guys last time, and he he he bought the beat, right? He gives me stems, and I'm looking at the stems and I'm like, huh, why there's only three stems? The whole beat was AI. I don't know if it was Suno or something, but like there's producers that are doing beats using AI and selling those beats online. We got to this point right now in in life. Yeah, I'm not surprised, man. You know what I mean? Like, it's crazy. Like, it's actually insane.

SPEAKER_00 34:09

It is insane. What are your thoughts on using AI? Have you considered like using Suno?

SPEAKER_02 34:13

Like I said, I know people that use Suno and stuff like that. I mean, I've used Suno before, like not on like a serious thing, but just to like to see what it was. Right. Like when it first came out. I don't, I mean, I I don't know if I'm like a fan or not of using Suno. I like AI tools, okay like stem separator, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:34

Those are clutch, yes.

SPEAKER_02 34:36

Yeah, those are great tools. I'm not really a fan of AI writing the song for me, singing the song for me. Um, I use like yeah, I think AI tools are great though. Like, if I got a demo, I want to change it to a female, perfect.

SPEAKER_00 34:49

You know, shit like that is cool. Right, right, right. There's a lot of people doing that these days though. Like, I and like whenever we receive those stems from those AI beats, it's like they can't even separate the drums. It's like you know what I mean. It's there's like glitching, and then like in some of the drum files, you hear like a guitar randomly or like a piano randomly.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

It's and there's like this weird artifact sound in it, like phasiness, yeah. It's like, ah, I hate this, I hate this sound, man.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Yeah, makes you want to repair, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:19

Not gonna lie, you I'll be getting some samples where I know they use like stamp separator. I'm like, is this a real sample? It's like an AI sample. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I'm not gonna lie, sometimes I'll be second guessing though.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Yeah, but it's just isn't it crazy though that people can call themselves like a producer or like a sample maker, but they're literally just going on Suno and be like, give me prompters. Yeah, yeah, the prompters. Give me uh uh this dark piano at 1 30 bpm in like F minor, and then they're like sending you loop packs, but oh bro, I skip this up for you, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 35:50

I mean, the good thing about like the Suno and shit, like the quality ain't that great. So, like, yeah, as far as like uh those AI loops and shit, they'll never be better than like fucking like a Frank Dukes or like an OC or like a Nick D or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

Yeah, yeah. But I feel like with those packs, like Frank and all, like I mean, you know the guys that worked on those packs. I think you had one too, no with Frank. So it's like it's like people actually put in work to make those sounds sound the way how they sound, you know. I mean, like these guys are putting in work, like sound design, so the pack sounds great. Yeah, you know, I feel like, and I feel like with with all the tools too that we're having, because things are becoming so much easier, people don't even pay attention to details anymore.

SPEAKER_03 36:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

You know, like that that work that people like music, I feel like music used to be such a sacred place, you know. I mean, whereas like we cherished it, like for us, like the sound, this, this, this. But right now it just feels like I just was next. Yeah, you know what I mean. But again, it's like I think it's like, you know, people like us, we still love what we do, regardless. But I feel like the influx of the new stuff and hearing all the new stuff, it kind of makes you realize that everything is just being washed out with uh, you know, all the tools and everything that is this being out there.

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah, I agree, definitely. Absolutely, bro. Yeah, so uh, I guess well, last qu one last question that I have for you. Um say, for example, you just started making beats like today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You didn't know anyone, like you're straight out of the box, fresh. What would you do? And like what advice would you give to someone in that position?

SPEAKER_02 37:25

Um, as a new beat maker, yeah, I guess number one um it's all about reps. When you're first starting out, bro, it's all about reps. Make as many beats as you can, as much as possible. Like 10 shitty beats when you're brand new will teach you so much. Yeah, yeah. So it's all about volume. You don't gotta really focus on like how good it is. Just learn the shit, bro. And then um network. Everyone says that, but like dead ass, bro. Like, you're not gonna get no play space if you don't shit. Like, I know so many talented people that don't network, so they're not going nowhere.

SPEAKER_03 38:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 38:06

You just gotta I go, I know it's hard to like walk up to people and talk to them, but like, bro, just do it. Yeah, like just fucking do it. Like, I hate doing that today.

SPEAKER_01 38:16

Today, I hate doing it. Question regards what you said. Do you feel that do you feel like if you approach people when you network back then when you didn't have the credits that you have right now, people didn't take you seriously? And right now, because they know your name, they like you know, much easier to engage with you, or uh I think it's more so obviously you gotta be smart about who you network.

SPEAKER_02 38:42

If I'm brand new, I'm not gonna try to network with fucking Drake. I'm gonna network with someone on my level, or maybe one step ahead of me. Yeah, you gotta build up a little bit horizontally and then a little vertically. You can't just shoot all the way to the top. So you know, maybe I start hitting out some people with 100 followers that I find their beats are cool, yeah. And then keep growing from there, and then next month, 200 followers, yeah. Just slow and steady, you know what I mean? Gotcha. And like it's all about how you network with people too. Because some people online, bro, they don't know how to talk speaks. That's true, man. Just yo. Yeah, yo, I hate those messages, bro.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

Just to just to like uh say something about what you just said, I had the message the other day, like two days ago, an engineer. Some guy messages me like, yo, bro, I fucked with your work. Yo, I'm looking for a small investment in in uh focus right scarlet. Some some so basically a guy was asking me to buy him a focus right scarlet, and then he's gonna give me royalties for the music that he do it.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

No way, all the music is not a bad game, OG. Yo, I'm not investing music.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

I was like, yo, man, this is insane.

SPEAKER_00 39:53

You're gonna be down bad to be doing that for $200, bro.

SPEAKER_01 39:55

I mean, yeah. I mean, it's probably some young kid and stuff, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_02 39:59

Like, it's better here, bro. Because you're telling me, yo, they'll be like, yo, check your DMs. I check the DMs, it's just yo. Like, what do we what's the point of that? What do we do in here? Yeah, yeah. Those DMs. Even in real life, too, bro. I have like some like producers come up to me, young or older. Like, it doesn't matter. They'll just start talking to me. They'll be like, yo, maybe you should introduce yourself first.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

Oh, they like just just go right away.

SPEAKER_02 40:23

Right into the convo. I'm like, I get you know me, but I don't know you. Like, you know, approach people, like regular people, like, hey, yo, you don't even gotta talk about music. Just be like, hey, I like what you do, yeah, I like your work, yo. But this is my name, and just keep it moving. You don't gotta be like, yo, how can I get your contact? Right. Just hope, like, yo, maybe I'll see them again if I do. Hope maybe I'll reintroduce myself again, and then maybe then I'll get their contact, you know, right? Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 40:50

Yeah, it's it's funny just because like everyone these days is just DMing people, right? It's like yo, bro, you'll send in like a hundred DMs every day, but like when you meet them in person, it's just so awkward because they don't know what to say to you because it's uh through a phone, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:03

Yeah, yeah. And I feel like many times just copy and paste the messages, copy the message and send it to 100 people, right? So it's like you don't really care about like personal connection with the person. It's not like you're there like crafting the messages, like, yo, what can I really say? It's just like, oh like Chat GPT, hey, I'm trying to reach out to this person. Can you like write me a message? You know, and then you have just dashes in the whole thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:24

All the dashes from Chat GPT, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how you know messages from Chat GPT, man. Always got the dashes, man.

SPEAKER_02 41:29

Oh man, even to this day, bro. I still be DMing people, like that method still works. Yeah, yeah, yeah. More times when I'm DMing people, it's literally just to show love. Like, I'll hear a song, be like, yo, this song is hot, yo. I like what you're doing, that's it. Like, I'm gonna be like, yo, let's do this. And then if they respond, then I'll be like, yo, by the way, yo, we would if you're down, I would love to send you a pack or something. Right, right, right.

unknown 41:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 41:50

I don't try to make it about business right away. Just tell them they're dope, bro. Yeah, yeah. They'd love to hear that. Yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 41:56

What would you say is like your one dream artist that you would love to work with? Like that one person. Oh man, that's tough. One person? Yeah, that one person.

SPEAKER_02 42:07

Give us three.

SPEAKER_00 42:08

Okay, sure. Three, yeah. Two, three, three.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Um, I'm guessing they gotta be alive, then, right? There's not dead or alive. Let's do dead or alive, yeah. It'd be like damn near impossible. Michael Jackson, obviously.

SPEAKER_03 42:19

Jesus Christ. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:20

Um, three, okay, now dead or alive is even harder, bro. More to pick out. Damn, more to pick out for sure. Damn. You know what? I'll just go with three rappers, bro. I'll just go with three rappers, it might be easier.

SPEAKER_00 42:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Um Drake still. Okay. Technically, I don't have a song right now.

SPEAKER_00 42:39

What do you mean?

SPEAKER_02 42:39

You have I do, but like he's not on the song, you know what I mean? Um, put I wanna put Future up there. Okay. One of my favorite artists. Oh, 100%. And then um Nas. Nas, yeah. Okay. That's my favorite rapper all time. All time? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:56

He had a crazy uh run with Hitboy Man. Yeah, crazy. Even the one with uh DJ Premier, that that album was a good album.

SPEAKER_02 43:02

I like that album. Yeah, my boy David mixed those uh Hitboy albums. Yeah, David Youngin, right? Yeah, yeah. Shout out David. Another gold man. Another gold.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

That's like my three, kind of a weird three, but Nas, uh Future injury, yeah. Futures verse on uh what was it? Back to Atlanta. Back to Atlanta, that was F up with that.

SPEAKER_02 43:22

Nah, he killed that. He killed that shit, he killed that. Yeah, even on that song, the first half was a lot of like artifacts and shit in the world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was, it was. I'm like, is this just a bad mix?

SPEAKER_01 43:31

Or like I could tell it was an old song just because like how the artifact do the vocals were it was probably like zip, zip, zip.

SPEAKER_00 43:39

They had to like unzip it. You know, bounce here, then say here, then bounce here, then say here, then bounce here, then say here.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Or maybe somebody put in an A button and then forgot to change the rap like complex pro to beat and then bounce it as a beat, and then the whole thing was done so. It's like, yeah, as an A Bleton user, you gotta know, bro, just all the audio files, A, and just go through. Make sure everything is in complex complex pro.

SPEAKER_02 44:03

Actually, you said starting day one. Yeah. Learn about the business.

SPEAKER_00 44:08

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

Contracts, all of that. Like obviously the easiest way to learn is to go through a bad contract or whatever. But hopefully you don't gotta go through that. Learn what your publishing is master points, all of that stuff.

unknown 44:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

Is it is it important at in the very beginning to have some type of legal help, a lawyer or somebody?

SPEAKER_02 44:29

100%. Like I had a lawyer when I was like 16.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Just also like they believed in me. You know, so I was lucky in that.

SPEAKER_01 44:37

Was the specific specifically entertainment lawyer?

SPEAKER_02 44:40

Yeah, absolutely entertainment lawyer.

SPEAKER_01 44:42

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 44:42

Because like they'll teach you literally anything I had across come across the table, like he looked at it like, yeah, nah. If I didn't get paid, they'd be like, yo, let me email them right now, get you paid tomorrow. Yeah. Whatever, you know. Right. And like you learn a lot, like, because like, yeah, it's a very snakey game if you don't know what you're doing, especially if you're new, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So learn the business as quickly as possible. And even to this day, bro, I'll be learning new shit all the time.

SPEAKER_01 45:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:07

You know, never stop learning.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

I think it's also because the music industry always evolves, it always changes. It's like it's not like what we have right now is different than what it was three years ago. It's completely different than what it was 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 45:19

For sure. Yeah, yeah. Like when I first started getting placements, like we didn't have to do sound exchange. Yeah, yeah. Until like a couple of years back. Then that started becoming normal and shit like that, you know. And yeah, make sure, you know, get your sound uh SoCan, that shit free. Yeah, that shit free, you know. If you go BMI, whatever, but fucking SoCan, bro.

SPEAKER_00 45:39

Yeah, SoCan. SoCan, sound exchange, whatever, I guess, distributor distro kid or two lost or whatever. I feel like there's we could do like a whole episode on just like collect being able to actually collect all of your royalties. You know, it's that's it's just so complicated.

SPEAKER_01 45:54

They should just do one that collects everything everywhere instead of having all this, you know, they don't sign up for like five, six different things.

SPEAKER_02 46:02

You know, they want the more complicated it is for you to get paid, the better it's bonuses they get.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

Yeah, facts. It's better for them because they just scoop all the money that you're supposed to be making.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

Collected money, they're like, okay, we get a bonus this year. Yeah. There's probably some like some terms like when you sign up, it's like, oh, if you don't collect your money within like 20 years or some shit like that.

SPEAKER_02 46:19

I think it's like a three-year window or something like that. If you don't collect your royalties, that shit just goes in the pool.

SPEAKER_00 46:26

Is that what it is? Yeah, yeah. For like even SolCan and everything?

SPEAKER_02 46:29

I don't know how SoCan, but for publishing, that's what it is, I'm pretty sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:33

That's crazy. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 46:34

But SoCan is pretty good. As long as your shit is registered, like, they'll find it, bro. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

I have a I have a question. You don't have to give no names, you don't have to give the details. But what is your biggest horror story in the music industry they had to encounter?

SPEAKER_02 46:48

I don't think I got nothing that bad. I've had bad sessions, I've done like bad deals and shit like that. Um, but I don't nothing nightmarish where I'm like, I need to quit. Actually, no, I almost quit one time. No way. But like, not for real, though. It was just like, uh, I was with El Angelo in LA, like when I was younger, like probably my first trip. I was like 17, bro. And like he was playing me his new album, like that he was working on. I'm just sitting in the back of the car, like, fuck, bro, this shit is too good. Like, yo, I'm gonna quit. Sonics were crazy, bro. Like, yeah, and he was just sitting there playing off his life. Like, ah nah, nah, I need to work on this, that like I need to fix stuff. Like, what the fuck?

SPEAKER_00 47:28

Yeah, yeah. Ellencho's crazy. Yeah, I I watched his uh mix with the master's breakdown for how he did like uh what song was a weekend track, but bro, that guy is mad scientist enabled him, bro. Like that guy's some next level, and he's always been like that too.

SPEAKER_02 47:42

He's always been crazy, like meticulous with like the knobs of everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love him because like he never gatekeeps anything. Yes. Every time I link him in LA or whatever, like he'll show me some new shit I could use or I could do a new technique or something, bro. Yeah, so like I always appreciate that about him. Like, yeah, so a lot of old heads, bro. I wouldn't say Angel's an old head, but like a lot of older people when I was coming up, like they would gatekeep everything. Yeah, you know what I mean. They don't want to show you the plugins, they don't want to show you the sessions, you know. Like that's like another big change from back in the day to today. Like, there's no really gatekeeping plugins and sounds.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Everyone got it, it's too accessible now. Everybody using the same tools nowadays, most of the people we probably share like 70% of the plugins. Yeah, the waves, you know, UAD and all that stuff. We all have the same thing. There might be like some extra here and there, maybe I don't have this, I don't have that, but like the core of the plugins, everybody used the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 48:37

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 48:38

You know, yeah, that's that old school mentality though, you know, like, oh, I can't show you that, you gotta find it yourself, yeah. You know, which I had to deal with, and it actually helped me a lot though. Because I had to find my own way to do things and it kind of gave me my own sauce, right? Which is like a big part of like doing this shit, bro. You gotta craft your own sound, you know. Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Well, how would you describe like your sound, like the Francis Gaheat sound? How would you describe it?

SPEAKER_02 49:03

Shit, I couldn't even describe it to you anymore, bro. Back in the day, it would be like that melodic, melodic sound, hard drums, whatever. But these days, bro, I don't even know because I kind of I've done like a bit of everything, like rock, pop, whatever. So I don't even know how to describe it, but yeah, I do love um uh I don't know, I do like soundscapes and pads and things of that nature, you know. But I don't even know how to describe my sound in 2026.

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Yeah, I feel like it's it's these days it's because of the internet, everyone's been influenced by so many different things, right? And it's evolving so fast, it's like all the genres are kind of blending together into one.

SPEAKER_02 49:44

Yeah, yeah. I think yeah, I think these days it's it's hard just to be a producer with one sound. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:50

You can't you can you don't even think you can, though? You can't, you literally cannot.

SPEAKER_02 49:53

Like back in the day when there were only like 20 producers and you had one guy for each if you wanted like this, yeah, yeah. Uh the slow record, you go to him. If you want this hard record, you go to him. Right. These days, bro, you gotta be able to do everything realistically, bro. For sure.

SPEAKER_01 50:07

Do you do you feel that also because that you have to do so much that a lot of producers kind of sound the same? Whereas like 100%. Cause sometimes I go and like I hear beats, and it just is five different beats, five different producers, but they it all sounds the same. Because like type beat, right?

SPEAKER_02 50:27

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, yeah, I guess you could say that everything's a type beat now. Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, absolutely. A lot of the shit do sound the same because like we do share a lot of the sounds, yeah, sound kits, plugins, and um a lot of people watch the same tutorial, so you're gonna use the same tools, the same ways, bro. You know what I mean? That's true. Uh so yeah, a lot of definitely I wouldn't say clones, but sounding sonics for sure. Yeah, because like yeah, the struggle isn't there anymore. The struggle of being very shit, yeah, and struggling your way out of to become have good sonics is not there no more. Yeah, you just go on splice now, you get high quality sounds right away.

SPEAKER_01 51:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, man, Splice, I I think it changed the game. It did, man. To the point where it's like I hear people using exactly the same loops, yeah. You know, like I even had songs I was mixing that guys bought, you know, beats of beat stars, and it's the same main loop, but it's like different song, but it's like, you know, the loop is exactly the same loop.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

Yeah, but it's like different songs, they'll like slow it down, or like they'll chop it up differently, but like the the sample itself is the exact same.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

Yeah, yeah. But I feel like it also like once people start using loops for everything, like you know, loop melody, loop drums, loop bass, loop everything, it's just like that's what's already happened these days.

SPEAKER_00 51:44

Where I remember sometimes I like when I went to LA recently, I was in a session, I was with this producer, bro. He literally opened up Splice, he found a guitar sample, he found a drum sample, put it, put it together in like one minute, but yo, I'll be stuck.

SPEAKER_02 51:56

Bro, and I'm like, I had one of those two, bro. Yeah, bro. It was terrible. I was in LA doing like a session, it was me and two other producers. Yeah, you know, I'm like, sick, all right, let's cook up. One guy pulls up a melody. I'm like, cool, cool, cool. From slice? No, no, just like he made the melody. Oh, he made the melody. Oh, he was just playing melodies for us to cook off of. I'm like, cool, cool. Like, send me that. Yeah, boom, he sends it to me and the next producer. The next producer hops on the ox or whatever. I'm like, cool. So it's just dragging in loops, bro. Auditioning. Fucking kick, snare. I'm like, yo, this doing the drones is the most fun part of doing it. I agree. So I agree. He's gonna loop it up, my guy. Yeah, he just threw in a couple loops and then I was like, all right, I left. Oh, you just left. I left the session, bro. Like, yeah, I'm not here to do this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not gonna waste my evening just looping it up. Yeah, yeah, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_01 52:48

Yeah, I I feel like there's this element of effort that is being removed from the process of making music. Even when I was when I saw the CEO of Suno talking about like nobody wants to learn instruments, nobody wants to like ridiculous. It's just like, I'm just like, man, this makes no sense at all.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

Yo, because he doesn't make music.

SPEAKER_01 53:14

That's the thing, is it's just tech bros that they trying to do, you know. Yeah, and I feel like the effort builds your character and it builds your knowledge how to do things, how to make things sound better, how to like make things the way how you hear it in your head. Because at the end of the day, it's like if you don't, it's like you know, your brain is like a muscle. If you don't practice it to like create melodies, make drum patterns, and do things, and you just like keep dropping things or suno this and this and that. It's like if you end up in a situation where there's no internet access, yeah, or like you're like in a in a session where it's like, look, we're going back to the old school, we just got tape and instruments, you won't be able to do anything.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

Yeah, 100%. I can see for sure. Like, I have a deep appreciation for producers today that could still craft the record from scratch, yeah, for sure. 100%. Because like definitely when I came up and stuff like that, like that's how we had to make beats, like you made it from scratch. We didn't have sample packs and shit like that. If you wanted to sample, you could sample an old record. Yes, you're gonna give up like all your publishing, yeah. But like you didn't have you had to build that shit from ground zero, like yeah, even like a lot of people don't think one girl can make melodies, whatever. Now she could build a beat from zero to 100, bro. But yeah, because she used a lot of loops, people just assume oh, she's just a drum person or whatever. Like, no, like we could do everything, we just choose not to because it's easier or more convenient, or right, we like how this sounds, or whatever, you know.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Yeah, and like even back in the day when people did actually use the sample, it was different because like it was more creative because they're taking the samples and they're actually finding ways to chop it up and make it sound different, right? But these days it's like splice, all right, boom, all right, drum loop, boom, done. You know, no one's even like manipulating anything, you know, it just like makes it match. Like, oh, does this match with this or does it match with this?

SPEAKER_01 54:58

I mean, bro, just taking a sample from splice, not even doing anything to this crazy work.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

That's what I'm saying, but that's what people are doing, is they call themselves producers, right?

SPEAKER_02 55:06

That's crazy. I mean, look at Sabrina Carpenter, bro. That shit went number one. What did that happen with Sabrina Carpenter? Yeah, she had um espresso with three splay sloops, bro. Oh, really? Wait, shut up real Oliver Tree, bro. Oh, Oliver Tree, yo, yeah, just threw it together. Uh three splay sloops from Oliver Tree. Call it a day, bro. That's crazy. I did not know that.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

Yeah, I didn't know that too. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 55:27

I thought it was uh number one, bro. That's a number one right there. I thought the producer, oh, that's probably something that Jack Antsanoff. I think I thought he maybe he produced a different track. That's what it was.

SPEAKER_02 55:35

Yeah, he probably did. Maybe he worked on that one too, bro. Who knows? Three spice loops, bro. That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

Drum loop, the guitar, I think the bass, and call it a dage. I mean, but you know, but that also shows that listeners do not care. Yeah, bro. It's crazy, they don't.

SPEAKER_02 55:51

Like, you know, I gotta tell myself that, like, people don't care how that shit was made. Yeah, if it sounds good, it sounds good, bro.

SPEAKER_01 55:57

But then it's like, you know, when I watched, especially recently, there's a lot of uh a lot of like producers that were producing on thriller, and uh they just do interviews with them, like how you guys do this, this, and that, and that. And they are breaking down things, and it's the simplest progressions, but just the way how they did it and how they got there, it just made those records timeless. Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, for sure. So it's like I guess simplicity is always the key. But I guess when things get too simple, it's just like anybody can do it. Because you know, whatever these guys did on thriller, not everybody can do it. Of course, you know, it might be a three, four chord progression, but like for them it was the sound selection to get it feel certain weight that those four chords make you feel like that, you know? Agreed.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

It's always a challenge, bro. Like, especially the older or the more experienced I get in production, it's like, how can I make the shit more simple? Yeah, yeah. Keep the emotion, keep everything there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like making simple shit is so hard.

SPEAKER_01 57:00

Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think it's also hard because sometimes you just overthink because you're like, oh, it's too simple.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

You know, I feel like you didn't do enough, yeah. Yeah, that's even for mixing, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:10

Facts. I mean, even certain records, like, drop it like it's hot. It's like four instruments, and then you know what I mean, but it's just such a hot record, you know.

SPEAKER_02 57:18

Yeah, y'all ever get a mix, like someone send you a mix, and then like it's pretty much all the way there, and then you're like, damn, I don't really have to do nothing. But let me just try to add some shit, anyways, bro. Let me throw up eight EQs anyway.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

I feel like I I feel like it's almost opposite. Most times I get stuff and I feel like people are just doing too much. Yeah, I feel like it's the opposite. Yeah, I think that probably happens more so in like mastering where people get like a really loud mix, and it's like in a lot of situations, you could probably just throw a limiter and just probably call it a day. Yeah, I think that happens probably a lot.

SPEAKER_01 57:55

Yeah, I I think when it comes to limiter on the mix, the worst thing about it is that when you send the mix without the limiter, yeah, they just gonna hear the loudness. It's like, yo, my mix sounds better. Why are your mixes this and that? Because they don't really hear, they don't hear the mix, they just hear the loudness. Yeah, how loud it's hitting.

SPEAKER_02 58:10

Yeah, yeah, effects. Okay, yeah, as because sometimes like I have to mix my own records, whatever, too. Right. And then when I send it off for mastering, how as I like you guys masters, like how would you want the file? Should I give it like a six decibel headroom, or should I just send it as loud as I have it in the demo?

SPEAKER_01 58:29

I feel like my me personally, I don't mind when it's loud. If it's like I don't need six dB of headroom, I don't need even three. I'm good with two. Sometimes I can game stage it and all that stuff. As long as it feels good and sounds good and there's no weird distortion of other stuff, like I can make it work. Yeah, you know what I mean? Because I I feel like if you have your mix in a place where you already it already feels good and is loud, number one thing, if your mix is loud, the master is gonna be louder.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:56

Because if you know, if you have like extra six, 10 dB of of uh of headroom, it's like you have to do so much to push the loudness, you have to like put the threshold on the limiter and all that stuff. It's like just give me a loud mix. So all I have to do is tweak it, bam, bam, bam, clean it up, maybe give a little bit more serial imaging, just fix what has to be fixed and just finalize it, you know. I mean, that's just my my ideology when it comes to masters.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

I agree. Okay, yeah, because I try not to like put like limiters and shit on when I'm sending it up.

SPEAKER_01 59:26

Yeah, don't put a limiter unless it's like a part of your sound, or like don't overdo it. Like, don't squash it like you know, 10 dB or something, you know what I mean? Yeah, it's like if there's like a little bit of limiting, it's like it's fine. Yeah, yeah, you know, as long as it's like part of the sound that you're going for. And I feel like especially nowadays, man, when you listen to like all this uh how do they call it the new era hip hop or whatever they call it, the new age, whatever. Like, you know, the too slimy and all that is like it's just distortion. The whole thing is just it's just like distortion, and like a lot of records are like that right now. Absolutely, bro. That's the fucking sound right now. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:03

So how do you feel about that sound? Is that something you enjoy cooking up as well?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:06

Um, I don't really cook up that type of stuff. Yeah, like I don't even listen to it, to be honest with you either, to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

I don't, bro. No, no disrespect to anybody, but like I can't, bro. Like I cannot do this to myself.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:22

I don't know if I'm just an old head or what, but I know like that's what the kid's like now.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Like that whole wave of just distorted everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:30

But does it also show or prove the point that I don't want to say I don't want to say it the wrong way, that the taste became worse? Taste, you said? Yeah, taste. Because like, man, like realistically, right? If you hear something that is distorted, you can't hear the words, you can't, like, everything just sounds like a measure of distortion, right? And somebody's like, oh yeah, this is hard. In my head, I'm like, yo, like, I don't know if I'm losing my mind, but this shit is not, this does not sound good. Yeah, yeah, but clearly if you listen to that, I don't think you're listening for the words, fam. I guess, yeah. Maybe for yeah, maybe you listen for the vibe. I don't I don't know, like, I don't know the idea behind it, so I can't really comment that much. I think it is.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:10

I think it's just the vibe. Yes, the vibe is like the feeling. Yeah, I guess. Yeah, you know what I mean? More so than what they're saying. Because if we're going off what they're saying, they're probably not saying much anyway. Facts. Let's be honest, facts, but there are some like distorted rap songs that are cool, like SD Kid, yeah, yeah, cool and shit like that, you know. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

unknown 1:01:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Sometimes you take it a little too overboard.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:33

No, for sure. And like with that genre, bro, let's be honest, the production carries.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

Oh, 100%. Listening for the beat. 100%, 100%. I 100%. There's that what's that? There's a there's like that new song. It's like called Queen Street West or some some shit. I ain't heard it yet. Yeah, bro. It's like literally, like, if you listen to the beat, it's super fire, like super, super fire. If you l and you're living, if you're listening to the vocal, if like this is the beat, the vocal is like right here, like tucked. You know, you can kind of hear it, but you kind of can't, and the beats just like lapping you in the face. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

I mean, look, I I think at the end of the day, it's just stylistic choices, right? Yeah, it's like every generation is gonna have their own thing. Like, I'm pretty sure the you know, Michael Jackson generation, when they heard like when we were cooking and all that stuff, he's gonna say, What the hell are these guys doing? You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:23

So probably like the first time someone heard like little Uzi, they're like, what the hell is this? Exot, bro, what is this garbage?

SPEAKER_02 1:02:29

Yeah, remember like Ebro and like them old head like medium guys were telling Uzi your United lasting more than three years, whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now he got no more show. Uzi is still here, you know? He's still talking, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Facts. I guess we're in that generation now.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:43

Yeah, I try not to be like the old heads of my generation, though, trying to be a hater and shit.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, it's like I always try to appreciate as much as I can. And it's like, look, at the end of the day, it's like I understand these guys are doing what they're doing, and hey, if they selling shows, they have fans, they doing what they're doing, it's like I don't have to listen to it. There's nobody's forcing me to, you know, go and listen to it. Exactly. I'm just trying to understand why, you know what I mean? And it's like, I don't know why. I mean, I I get it, like the vibe and stuff, I get it, but you know, it's definitely not not my cup of tea when it comes to the sound, especially when like I'm trying to enjoy the sound, you know. I mean, give me the give me the feeling that I'm looking for, you know. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:22

I'd be approaching the same way, like I might not like a record or whatever, but uh I always try to figure out why it works or like how it works. Like I might not like, I don't know, this pop song on the radio, but I can listen to it and be like, okay, I see why people like it.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:36

I see why it works, you know. Yeah, there's like things you could probably even like take away from it. Yeah, kind of implement yourself.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:41

I can appreciate what they're doing. I don't have to like the song necessarily, but like I could appreciate it. Yeah, yeah, 100%. That's like something I had to learn too.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:49

Like when I was younger, I just if I hated a song, I just hated it, bro.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:55

Yeah, same, same, same.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

Yeah, something you just gotta listen to, especially like, you know, for us people that do it every day, we have to be always following up and updating everything that is happening around us. Because even like, you know, when I was starting, when I was uh engineering, I remember this one uh engineer, he was like big engineers in 80s. You know, he was the guy in the 80s. So he went to a studio and like his mixes sounded like his 80s. I'm like, bro, it's like it's you know, it was like probably 2010s or whatever the thing was. But it's like his mentality of the sound was like how he used to do things for like past X amount of years. Like there was no like, let's do it a little bit more, you know, with the with the current time.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:41

You know, so yeah, you gotta adapt as a producer and as an engineer. You have to adapt with the times.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:46

You don't have to change fully, but just adapt at least a little bit, so it's like you know, you're not fully outdated, you know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Yeah, 100%. All right, guys, we're gonna wrap it up. Uh, but thank you again, Francis. Thank you. Appreciate you today, everyone appreciate it, man.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:00

We're gonna do it again. We're gonna there's we started just talking. We probably would do another hour, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:05

There's so much to talk about, yeah, to be honest. There's so much. Next time I'll interview you guys. Say no more. 100%.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:13

But yeah, guys, thank you for watching. And as always, stay tuned for the next episode.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:17

All right, peace out. Peace.